NationStates Jolt Archive

At least my system has been demonstrated to work! :D


And by the way, as much as we disagree, and as much as I sometimes want to punch you in the face, I honestly do respect you for holding onto your ideals, however misguided they may be. ;)

It's been demonstrated to work for greedy corporate pigs that live in gated communities.. It's a selfish thing to say "I'm fine off so why should I question the system?" Because the world as well as our country are suffering at the expense of some rich, raicist, faicist shitheads.

You're quite right in stating that war never must be seen as a purpose to itself. I can agree with that sentiment :)

Dont thank me thank Karl von Clauswitz.

I am one of those people who hate politics

IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT MILITARY CRED, DON'T PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT THE TROOPS FEEL, OR WHAT THEY WOULD DO.

The US was attacked, Pearl Harbor and 9-11, in both situations the military didn't manage to stop the event. In both situations they were able to enact a revenge (think Afghanistan in the case of 9-11). We all know this. Would you prefer a more bellicose America?

IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT MILITARY CRED, DON'T PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT THE TROOPS FEEL, OR WHAT THEY WOULD DO.

The US was attacked, Pearl Harbor and 9-11, in both situations the military didn't manage to stop the event. In both situations they were able to enact a revenge (think Afghanistan in the case of 9-11). We all know this. Would you prefer a more bellicose America?
What is this supposed to mean? :confused:

IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT MILITARY CRED, DON'T PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT THE TROOPS FEEL, OR WHAT THEY WOULD DO.

The US was attacked, Pearl Harbor and 9-11, in both situations the military didn't manage to stop the event. In both situations they were able to enact a revenge (think Afghanistan in the case of 9-11). We all know this. Would you prefer a more bellicose America?
yeah what DO You mean by that?

i had to look up the word BELLICOSE. turns out it means warlike

so what was your point?

And by the way, as much as we disagree, and as much as I sometimes want to punch you in the face, I honestly do respect you for holding onto your ideals, however misguided they may be. ;)
If someone is wrong, they are wrong. Holding on to wrong ideals is not a virtue.

Another thing, our military is for DEFENSIVE purposes, not to go around and invade everyone that disagrees with our ideology. Who or what gives a right to do that? NO ONE! Every nation should be able to beleive what it will, with out fear of the OL' US coming in and invading and putting in a new "democracy".
This is right up there with "capitalism puts money into the control of the people". With democracy every nation can express its beliefs and self-determination without being held down by a dictator.

Dont thank me thank Karl von Clauswitz.
It's a mistranslation though. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

Anyways, the thing is, if America was to be attacked it would nuke everyone. And secondly, if they weren't, maybe they'd learn that war is never a way to "defend one's freedom". It's the reason freedoms are lost.

Maybe it would teach the Americans that war isn't a good idea, like it taught the Germans.

It's a mistranslation though. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

Anyways, the thing is, if America was to be attacked it would nuke everyone. And secondly, if they weren't, maybe they'd learn that war is never a way to "defend one's freedom". It's the reason freedoms are lost.

Maybe it would teach the Americans that war isn't a good idea, like it taught the Germans.
I think that what the Germans learned was that you can't try to invade and conquer every nation on the planet, and commit genocide while you're at it, and expect America and Britain (and Russia, Canada, etc....) to let you get away with it. ;)

I think that what the Germans learned was that you can't try to invade and conquer every nation on the planet, and commit genocide while you're at it, and expect America and Britain to let you get away with it. ;)
It goes a lot further than that. Germany is essentially a pacifist nation, and better for it.

EDIT: Eventually you'll get it right the first time 'round. :p

EDIT: Eventually you'll get it right the first time 'round. :p
So will Germany! :p

I don't see why HiB bothered with the long blathering post.

George Orwell made the same point with just three words:

War is Peace

I much prefer what Robert Heinlein said:
You can have peace or you can have freedom, you should never count on having both at once.

What has happened in America? How can so many young people hate the very institution that has protected them, their parents, their grandparents, and beyond.
I blame it on the media. I do not believe that reporting on the military is any more skewered than it was fifty years ago. I just think that they have far greater reporting ability that shows the American public horrible details of war that they naively wished to forget about. For almost 150 years, no major war has ever been fought on American soil. This is undoubtedly a good thing. But it has enclosed us in a bubble where we assume that war is good, and no one gets hurt. Americans forgot the details, and once the media could report on war effectively, Americans lost their stomach for war. We are a nation of softies.

You can have peace or you can have freedom, you should never count on having both at once.
So very American...

And while we're at it with the quotes:
At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.

At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.

yeah what DO You mean by that?

i had to look up the word BELLICOSE. turns out it means warlike

so what was your point?

First off, sorry, I was typing between doing stuff at work.

The captilised bit was venting my frustration at what seems to be right wing college kids contantly quiping "Won't somebody please think of the soldiers!?", while not actually having any experience regarding what its like to be a GI, or being willing to face the fact that not every soldier is a noble paladin.

The second bit was justa n observation that as far as I can remember, from 1812 to 9-11 the military has never been able to prevent an attack during peacetime. At the time I wrote that God and I knew what I was getting at, now only God knows.

I support our troops and even the removal of a dictator..HOWEVER I cannot support a war that the causes of which the President down lied about, both at home and to the world with false evidence at the UN.

Must add that I also do not support an immediate withdrawl of US troops because now that we've made this mess we can't just walk out and leave the Iraqi people in the middle of it to fight for themselves.

Most importantly, the daily sacrifice of American men and women in the millitary & their families, must always be honored and respected. Let's do this by paying them a living wage so spouses are not at home filing for bankcruptsy just to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table and let's give them a decent pension and health care coverage for life when they return home.:headbang:

Ok, now don't get your panties in a bunch. Let me explain myself.

The reason I think that the United States needs to be attacked is so that all these clueless kids growing up today can know what it means to be without a military.

EDIT- Please note, I do not wish to see the U.S. attacked, nor do I want ANY innocent people hurt. This was designed to be a tongue in cheek remark that has been misinterpreted (rightly so) and I apologize to anyone who thought otherwise.

I should have said that there are those in society who will never value our military until it is too late.

I'm frankly getting sick of the Iraq war clouding peoples minds as to how immensely important Americas military is. I'm sick of the little fucks in colleges across America saying that the Military shouldn't be glorified for "killing people", yet they have no idea why the killing is done, and the fact that 99% of the Military would die happy never firing a shot in anger.

The kids in America are spoiled to a dangerous degree. They are too stupid to see that the Military is the reason they can sit in their cosy classrooms and learn how to hate the Troops.

What has happened in America? How can so many young people hate the very institution that has protected them, their parents, their grandparents, and beyond.

I don't hate the institution, I just think that it makes some dumbass descisions from time to time, like Iraq. Bushy is a pretty cool guy, just not as good of a speaker than most Presidents.

Outside of that, most classrooms I sit in say "Support the Troops!", not, "Fuck the Troops, those Facsist Fucks!"

To respond to your request (real or not) to have the United States attacked, me and my friends would be the first group of kids to call themselves the Wolverines and run up to a T-80 and throw a Molotov inside. :D

Oh Good God, your twisted logic makes me want to throw up.

Who, mine? What's wrong with defending ones country with a IED?

-Edit: I just realised the horrible irony of that statement. Sorry to anyone who gets offended by it.-

I was refering to the thread's starter Velkya.

Are you pro-Bush?

No, I'm a Democrat, I just think it's stupid how everyone says the conservatives are "evil" and Bush is an idiot. I think Bush is intelligent, and is just an easygoing guy from Texas. What's so bad about that?

That said, I thought it was funny as hell when I heard about the Cheny incident.

The military seem to be teaching americans about attacking because of "weapons of mass destruction" They only wanted to remove Saddam Hussein from power

Ah, a liberal....so am I, Velkya. Personally, I don't see him or conservatives (note: I'm non-American) as evil or stupid, I see him as a crony capitalist that supports imperialism and believes that using force is inherently beneficial progress - for themselves, and not for others.

No, I'm a Democrat, I just think it's stupid how everyone says the conservatives are "evil" and Bush is an idiot. I think Bush is intelligent, and is just an easygoing guy from Texas. What's so bad about that?

That said, I thought it was funny as hell when I heard about the Cheny incident.

I think Bush is incompetent. I mean, just look at what he does.
<=Watches the Daily Show

oh yeah, the guy who Cheney shot also had a heart attack. Maybe it's god telling us something.

<=Watches the Daily Show

oh yeah, the guy who Cheney shot also had a heart attack. Maybe it's god telling us something.
Duck.

Could he have dodged all that birdshot, really?

Could he have dodged all that birdshot, really?
Um. Duck behind Scott McClellan's ginormous head?

WTF? As Americans we support our troops. I don't really know anybody who doesn't appreciate the sacrifices our military personnel make for us on a daily basis.
I certainly don’t appreciate them, and I’m an American. You lose.

I certainly don’t appreciate them, and I’m an American. You lose.

Why can't you at least respect them?

The kids in America are spoiled to a dangerous degree. They are too stupid to see that the Military is the reason they can sit in their cosy classrooms and learn how to hate the Troops.
I beg to differ. The only wars that were fought for the the US's continued existence were the Revolution and the War of 1812. WW2 might have ended with Hitler controlling half the world, but he never invaded the US, so that can't count. The Civil War only allowed minorities to sit freely in a classroom. Whiteys were and still would be free in a classroom. (No offense intended) Also, even if we lost both wars I stated, and were part of Britain, we'd eventually be freed.

Why can't you at least respect them?
No. They are the enforces of tyranny.

No. They are the enforces of tyranny.

I hate to use this old refrain but if you hate this place so much why don't you get out?

I hate to use this old refrain but if you hate this place so much why don't you get out?
Everyplace else is even worse.

No. They are the enforces of tyranny.

What tyranny? Are you daft, sir? If the United States was tyrannical, you would have been hauled off to a re-education camp long ago.

Unfourtunatly, you have the freedom to spew this arrogant ignorance.

http://images.indymedia.org/imc/barcelona/capitalism.jpg

I hate to use this old refrain but if you hate this place so much why don't you get out?

I've always hated that argument, for it is truly disrespectful of reality. You see, America is one of the best nations in the world, if not the best. But, that doesn't neccisarily mean it's a good thing. For example, just because you're in the best concentration camp doesn't mean the concentration camp is good.

What tyranny? Are you daft, sir? If the United States was tyrannical, you would have been hauled off to a re-education camp long ago.

Unfourtunatly, you have the freedom to spew this arrogant ignorance.

What do you mean 'unfortunately' we have the freedom? It is quite fortunate that our government allows us this freedom as opposed to disallowing like a few other nations, but either way our right to speech is not theirs to control. You see, the government doesn't own you. It can't tell you what to do, or at least not by natural law. The reason we have to listen to any nation is because it oppresses us with force and power and guns, which is the very reason that all government is oppressive, no matter how permissive it may be.

I've always hated that argument, for it is truly disrespectful of reality. You see, America is one of the best nations in the world, if not the best. But, that doesn't neccisarily mean it's a good thing. For example, just because you're in the best concentration camp doesn't mean the concentration camp is good.

The best nation at what?

The best nation at what?
Telling other nations how great it is.

Oh, by golly, the "disagreement = hate = leave my country" logic! What am I gunna do?? Oh, okay, I'll narrate how these threads go. It all begins with the conservatives saying the Military protects freedom (which is a lie), then saying these same freedoms should be taken away! You see, he doesn't have to leave. He can hate the military and not hate the nation, regardless of what assumptions you want to make about him. Considering that the military kills for interests (not freedom, interests), he's well within his rights. He can live in a nation, disagree with what it does, and try to change it. But no, you'd not have him do that, because you like better the current state of affairs: A military that's used to protect corporate interests at the expense of the freedoms you CLAIM TO hold so dear. Yet you call dissent treason, call disagreement with a policy hatred, and so on. Maybe you SHOULD try living under a dictatorship just like the one your fine country helped the Brazilian military coup Brazil into. Then you'd ACTUALLY start caring about this "freedom" thing. And not only care about the "freedom" to AGREE COMPLETELY WITH WHATEVER PIECE OF BULLSHIT YOU SPEW.

http://images.indymedia.org/imc/barcelona/capitalism.jpg
That's lovely, but where's the middle class, the largest socio/economic class in modern day America?

That's lovely, but where's the middle class, the largest socio/economic class in modern day America?

The omission doesn't strike you as a social commentary?

That's lovely, but where's the middle class, the largest socio/economic class in modern day America?

They're the bottom.. They're the working class.

Um ... brainwashing? "Poltically correct" speech? Far left parents? It's a conundrum.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech (http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html), Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961


Those crazy kids. :p

Military-Industrial Complex Speech (http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html), Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961


Those crazy kids. :p
I find it utterly confounding how people keep using quotes to prove a point, as if certain people 50 years ago are all knowing. Is it so hard to fathom that someone who was a founding father or a President, or a writer or whatever might have been a complete moron who happened into fame through sheer blind luck?

I mean, how can anyone with a clear conscience say "This guy with lots of power said this 50 years ago, and I agree with him, so we are right, and you are wrong!"

I find it utterly confounding how people keep using quotes to prove a point, as if certain people 50 years ago are all knowing. Is it so hard to fathom that someone who was a founding father or a President, or a writer or whatever might have been a complete moron who happened into fame through sheer blind luck?

I mean, how can anyone with a clear conscience say "This guy with lots of power said this 50 years ago, and I agree with him, so we are right, and you are wrong!"

1. You appear to have missed the point. Ike warned us about the military. And he was Ike! It's like the Pope warning us about priests. And in 1961!

2. How can anyone with a clear conscience say "Nothing from history agrees with me, but I think this, so I am right and you are wrong!"

I agree 100%. We sure as hell need a draft.

1. You appear to have missed the point. Ike warned us about the military. And he was Ike! It's like the Pope warning us about priests. And in 1961!
1) "He was Ike"? Is that supposed to mean something? Why is "Ike" any more intelligent than someone less known, or less powerful?

2) It could be said it's like David Duke warning us about the Jews, by your reasoning.

2. How can anyone with a clear conscience say "Nothing from history agrees with me, but I think this, so I am right and you are wrong!"
This statement doesn't make enough sense to warrant a response other than to say that I never suggested that ignoring history was a good idea. I simply stated that it is quite odd to put so much importance in the words of one man, based upon on his standing in society. Many a man has had the ear of the world. It doesn't make him more wise than the common man. Just louder.

"He was Ike"? Is that supposed to mean something? Why is "Ike" any more intelligent than someone less known, or less powerful?
Wasn't Ike a military man? Wouldn't it be already pretty serious if a military man actively goes against what his convictions and interests might suggest to say something against the military?

It's just an indication of the severity of the issue as Ike saw it.

Wasn't Ike a military man? Wouldn't it be already pretty serious if a military man actively goes against what his convictions and interests might suggest to say something against the military?

It's just an indication of the severity of the issue as Ike saw it.

Not just a military man. He was after all, the Allied Supreme Commander for Europe during World War 2. But hey, Honky in Black dismisses him as another Commie Liberal Terrorist. :D

Wasn't Ike a military man? Wouldn't it be already pretty serious if a military man actively goes against what his convictions and interests might suggest to say something against the military?

It's just an indication of the severity of the issue as Ike saw it.
Yes, Ike was a miltary man. However, it doesn't make his opinions any more significant than anyone elses. In fact, because he was in politics, I would give less credence to what he says in public than someone who has nothing to lose from speaking the simple truth.

Yes, Ike was a miltary man. However, it doesn't make his opinions any more significant than anyone elses. In fact, because he was in politics, I would give less credence to what he says in public than someone who has nothing to lose from speaking the simple truth.

Maybe you should tell this to your Comrade Forrest... oh noes!

:D

Yes, Ike was a miltary man. However, it doesn't make his opinions any more significant than anyone elses. In fact, because he was in politics, I would give less credence to what he says in public than someone who has nothing to lose from speaking the simple truth.
Some people aren't qualified though. Yes, a quote by someone who isn't really related is an appeal to authority, and that's a fallacy.
I wouldn't go ahead and justify Socialism by saying that Einstein believed in it.

But Ike knew what he was talking about. He'd been around it all for years. And if I read the speech correctly, he didn't have anything to lose or gain from it either - he just said what he felt had to be said.

Ah, a liberal....so am I, Velkya. Personally, I don't see him or conservatives (note: I'm non-American) as evil or stupid, I see him as a crony capitalist that supports imperialism and believes that using force is inherently beneficial progress - for themselves, and not for others.

Isn't that what is often meant by evil?

Yes, Ike was a miltary man. However, it doesn't make his opinions any more significant than anyone elses. In fact, because he was in politics, I would give less credence to what he says in public than someone who has nothing to lose from speaking the simple truth.

He said that when he was LEAVING the white house, so ixne on the politics.

Not just a military man. He was after all, the Allied Supreme Commander for Europe during World War 2. But hey, Honky in Black dismisses him as another Commie Liberal Terrorist. :D
All i can say is,
:D

*royalties*