NationStates Jolt Archive

In America are men "manlier" and women "womanlier" than in England/Europe? Is there a bigger difference between the genders in America?

For example, take the traditional view of 'the popular people' in American High Schools. The popular guys all play American Football, a sport played only by men, a sport which is very much steeped in a very macho ethos. The popular girls are all cheerleaders, something which is regarded as a very feminine activity and is really only done by girls. Both the footballer and the cheerleader are in very strictly defined, traditional gender roles.

In contrast in England, the most popular boys might play soccer, but then so do some of the most popular girls. And though rugby is a male dominated sport, female rugby teams are reasonably common. Similarly though hockey is a female dominated sport, male hockey teams are reasonably common. The differences between the genders are there, but they are more blurred and less clearly defined than in England.

Socially I think the genders mix a bit more naturally in England than in the US. American men seem to be more likely to meet up with just their male friends than their English counterparts who seem more likely to meet up with their friends, regardless of gender.

I'm not saying English men and women don't on occasion socialise in groups with members of their own gender only, but it does seem less common than in the States.

Does anyone else reckon the gender divide is more pronounced in America?

I would agree with you on most of your observations, yet not having lived in the USA, I cannot verify that what is seen on TV or heard as hearsay is enough to form a complete opinion of American society.

Sica']
For example, take the traditional view of 'the popular people' in American High Schools. The popular guys all play American Football, a sport played only by men, a sport which is very much steeped in a very macho ethos. The popular girls are all cheerleaders, something which is regarded as a very feminine activity and is really only done by girls. Both the footballer and the cheerleader are in very strictly defined, traditional gender roles.

:confused:

No it's not...That's not right at all...

At least, not in California. Are we the queer state or something? :D

Popular girls play soccer? That's news to me.

And female rugby players are considered just a little lesbian

Very random assertation you've made there. Supported by basically nothing I've seen.

Sica']In America are men "manlier" and women "womanlier" than in England/Europe? Is there a bigger difference between the genders in America?

For example, take the traditional view of 'the popular people' in American High Schools. The popular guys all play American Football, a sport played only by men, a sport which is very much steeped in a very macho ethos. The popular girls are all cheerleaders, something which is regarded as a very feminine activity and is really only done by girls. Both the footballer and the cheerleader are in very strictly defined, traditional gender roles.

TV isn't really all that good an indicator. When I was in high school (and this was 10 years ago - oh God, I'm getting so old), some of the "popular people" were the smartest people in the class - male or female. There were female softball players and runners who were very popular. In fact, most of the truly "popular" girls at my school - in my grade at least - were not cheerleaders. Some of the popular people were actually *gasp* in band! While TV generally portrays cheerleaders as ditzy and as getting poor grades, many of our cheerleaders were in the most advanced classes. On top of that, we actually did have a male cheerleader.

Now, I can't speak for the whole team, but most of our football players did at least try to be the "macho" athlete - and were considered to be very annoying by most of us. Except for Cody Reid, because he was pretty nice and was hot as hell.... hehe

Of course, the basketball players at our school got much more attention than the football players, because our basketball team actually won games...

Socially I think the genders mix a bit more naturally in England than in the US. American men seem to be more likely to meet up with just their male friends than their English counterparts who seem more likely to meet up with their friends, regardless of gender.

Again, this is not true in my experience. I am a woman, and I have more male friends than female. In fact, I'm having trouble matching my number of bridesmaids to my number of groomsmen for my wedding, and I think I may end up pulling some guys over to my side. When I hang out in a group of friends, it is almost always co-ed. In fact, that only things I can remember doing in recent history with "just girls" are manicures and going shopping at Victoria's Secret.

Does anyone else reckon the gender divide is more pronounced in America?

Nope, I think it's portrayed that way - and maybe it used to be. My mother certainly thinks the large number of guy friends I had in high school was odd - but no one I have met in my own age group does.

Outside of my home state of Texas, nobody gives a rats ass about high school football.

Outside of my home state of Texas, nobody gives a rats ass about high school football.

Now, *that* definitely isn't true. I've never seen a public high school that didn't emphasize football - even to the exclusion of worrying about academics, and I've never been to any high school in Texas.

In GA, they even play high school football on the news - highlights from the different games, and even whole games on some stations.

How about this: my school just canceled its co-op with a town about 20 miles down the road, so now we have no football. My pathetically small school in central Illinois is all about volleyball and basketball.

:confused:

No it's not...That's not right at all...

At least, not in California. Are we the queer state or something? :D
Nope. Same way in New York. Not huge on football, not big on jocks or cheerleaders and very gender intergrated.

In Canada, just about everybody plays hockey, regardless of popularity or sex.

I must say I've noticed that in American families, gender roles seem to be more circumscribed. For example, many more US women are stay-at-home parents, and it appears that far fewer men do. It also seem to be expected in some quarters that the woman will not work. Weird.

However that could be because the US culture we have piped into our homes is primarily middle class; I mean it's not like many families who're struggling have the luxury of one parent staying home...

I attended a State Champ in Football American High School. Allow me to explain how wrong you are.
Sica']In America are men "manlier" and women "womanlier" than in England/Europe? Is there a bigger difference between the genders in America?
Perception is a choice. If that is how you want it to be, so be it.
Sica']For example, take the traditional view of 'the popular people' in American High Schools. The popular guys all play American Football, a sport played only by men, a sport which is very much steeped in a very macho ethos. The popular girls are all cheerleaders, something which is regarded as a very feminine activity and is really only done by girls. Both the footballer and the cheerleader are in very strictly defined, traditional gender roles.
I didn't realize that was the "traditional view". Possibly in the UK, but not here (er...there actually). Popular guys come from all over the social spectrum. Most know how to party or have a lot of itellectual utility. There are girl American Football teams. Only thing is, they have more injuries than the guys, and are quickly scrapped. There is a renewal of girls football teams every five years of so, after having the peolpe that remember the eye-gouging and leg snapping graudate. Then the cycle is repeated, with more horrendous injuiries. Fact is, girls are meaner than guys.

About cheerleading? All the "pimps" and "ladies men" are on the cheerleader team. There are guys on cheerleading teams. But, Europeans tend to not know anything about cheerleading for some reason. They think its unneccessary, like the fans can do all the work while wolfing down foot-long hotdogs, chuging soda, and generally sitting on the benches.

Machoness and feminity? The spanking of eachother's butts on the field in American Football is macho? No, my friend, its not. Its homoerotic, and thus more womanly. Since girls sweat, fart, and have hair, they are not more feminin than when guys spank eachother in American football. Just no. These ideas are crazy.
Sica']In contrast in England, the most popular boys might play soccer, but then so do some of the most popular girls. And though rugby is a male dominated sport, female rugby teams are reasonably common. Similarly though hockey is a female dominated sport, male hockey teams are reasonably common. The differences between the genders are there, but they are more blurred and less clearly defined than in England.
The differences between geners are there in America, like with the whole penis and vagina thing, but the roles of the genders are more blurred and less clearly defined in America than in, say, Egypt for example.
Sica']Socially I think the genders mix a bit more naturally in England than in the US. American men seem to be more likely to meet up with just their male friends than their English counterparts who seem more likely to meet up with their friends, regardless of gender.
Nah. That's not true. Again, perception is a choice.
Sica']I'm not saying English men and women don't on occasion socialise in groups with members of their own gender only, but it does seem less common than in the States.
When I saw "Shawn of the Dead" there was a bunch of dudes hanging out. In, that one movie called "Calendar Ladies" or something there was a big one gender grouping. Where are you getting these crazy ideas from?
Sica']Does anyone else reckon the gender divide is more pronounced in America?
Reckon is an American word. You may not use it. Sorry.;)
No, I don't reckon that the gender divide is more pronounced in America than, say Saudi Arabia or the rest of the world on the whole.

I must say I've noticed that in American families, gender roles seem to be more circumscribed. For example, many more US women are stay-at-home parents, and it appears that far fewer men do. It also seem to be expected in some quarters that the woman will not work. Weird.

However that could be because the US culture we have piped into our homes is primarily middle class; I mean it's not like many families who're struggling have the luxury of one parent staying home...

About 47% of the workforce in the US is female, which is roughly the same as the UK. I think it's probably the TV shows not giving the real picture.

Again, this is not true in my experience. I am a woman, and I have more male friends than female. In fact, I'm having trouble matching my number of bridesmaids to my number of groomsmen for my wedding, and I think I may end up pulling some guys over to my side. When I hang out in a group of friends, it is almost always co-ed. In fact, that only things I can remember doing in recent history with "just girls" are manicures and going shopping at Victoria's Secret.Heh, I (a guy), have gone to, not Victoria's Secret, but sex shops like Ann Summers. Considering that our friendship was platonic and she had a boyfriend at time... and I, at least, like to think I'm not gay... c.c

The conversation was a bit odd though.

But, yeah, no biggie.

Outside of my home state of Texas, nobody gives a rats ass about high school football.
You've never been to Michigan my friend. We're all about that.

Well you have to admit that US TV is always 100% accurate at depicting school life, what with most of the pupils being in their 20s, drive corvettes and have hollywood tans...

Anyway Part of the issue is that high school sports arte generally not that biug a deal in the UK, if you want to get ahead in a sport you don't do it through school you do through and amatuer club or the training arm of a mjor sports club (particularly in football where msot of the big teams have thier own junior training programs).

At my school we didn't have a rugby team (despite what the picture in the year book says) or a regualr football team but we did have a very good male basketball team and exceptional girls Hockey and netball teams (when 3 of your teachers are former international players that happens now and then). We did have a bunch of rugger buggers but they all played for a local club.

As for cheerleaders i geuss msot brits don't really see the point, its not as if you need anythign like that during an old firm game...

OK I am an English female, and I never played football (soccer) in my whole life, or rugby, Hockey is field hockey and is played by both sexes, we dont have a huge ice hockey scene in the UK, but I know that in Canada EVERYONE plays ice hockey. I know that in more recent 'politically correct' times schools have to make girls play what I would think of as 'boys' sports (football, rugby) and boys play 'girls' sports (netball etc) my son HATES it, he hates having to do girl stuff and finds the whole thing mortifying. As for Men not going out with their mates as much in England...ummm...HELLO!... teenagers do seem to have a more mixed group of friends than when I was at school, BUT guys I know go out to the pub with their mates, they watch sport with their mates (mates = male friends) the women in their lives are generally not included in this male bonding shouting at the TV thing. I have a Canadian boyfriend, and HE thinks that the male/female divide is bigger here than in Canada, but as I have only been to the USA on holiday and seen US sitcoms and films, I cant make a guess at what its really like.

As for the cheerleaders thing, until I met the Canuck, I am ashamed to say that I thought that cheeleading was for slutty airheads and had no other reason than to give the male dominated crowd something to look at whilst the American 'football' players stood about aimlessly on the pitch in between the short bursts of activity....he has reeducated me that it is not quite like that and that in fact they are well respected and nice girls...so I eat my words, but as I say, they were my pre conceived ideas from my cultural perspective...so hands up to my own ignorance and bigotry.

I think that its generational, the gender difference is narrowing as time moves on, when I was younger, girls did not drink pints of beer and get lairy and urinate in the streets on a friday night, but hey...sexual equality brought some funny side effects.

I really do not understand why a lot of guys like to go out with 'the fellas' or whatever. I really don't like a large group very much if it's all of the same gender, at least not too often.

I really do not understand why a lot of guys like to go out with 'the fellas' or whatever. I really don't like a large group very much if it's all of the same gender, at least not too often.

Its probably an off shoot of the "gang up on the wooly mamoth" trait, anyway msot of the time most males spend together involves stuff that i have yet to find a female who is even remotely interested in (sicne i'm geeky and most of my freinds are geeky our GFs hate it when we get together and the topic of conversation turns towards comics or Sci-fi stuff...)

I really do not understand why a lot of guys like to go out with 'the fellas' or whatever. I really don't like a large group very much if it's all of the same gender, at least not too often.

The same reasons any people are friends, because they tend to share the same interests, i.e. girls, football and drinking? But not neccessarily in that order.

Okay I don't live in the UK but in Ireland, but, well, close enough! And I've never actually been to the states so I can't say anything fo definite about that. Anyway my year at school is very stereotypical. We're a 'jock' year (grade), (self-obsessed males and sport-playing 'attractive'(?) females) and while the jocks' consider themselves to be very popular, and that everyone wants to be them, pretty much everyone outside of that group hates them. In fact my year is hated by less jocky other years. Everyone knows that in general once school ends they will be lost without their huge clique, and will find it more difficult than anyone else to adapt to life outside High School. That is the cruelty that is 'popularity'.

Its probably an off shoot of the "gang up on the wooly mamoth" trait, anyway msot of the time most males spend together involves stuff that i have yet to find a female who is even remotely interested in (sicne i'm geeky and most of my freinds are geeky our GFs hate it when we get together and the topic of conversation turns towards comics or Sci-fi stuff...)

Depending on the comic or specific sci-fi discussion, I'm there! I also play video games like WoW and talk about that all the time with my guy friends, and I'm the only girl in my regular D&D group. Talk about being a geek, eh?

I'm an american male and prefer to hang out in mixed groups... going out with the guys can be boring, with girls can be boring, but its much more fun with a mix. Gotta love that sexual tension.

Also, I think there is a difference in the gender gap b/t rural areas and uban areas. I grew up on a farm and in high school it was very pronounced. Now I live in DC and its MUCH more difficult to see.

There won't ever be total equality tho until they figure out how to get guys pregnant...

Machoness and feminity? The spanking of eachother's butts on the field in American Football is macho? No, my friend, its not. Its homoerotic, and thus more womanly.

Slightly off topic I know, but seriously, there is NOTHING womanly about two men fucking each other. Indeed, an awful lot of what is considered macho and manly is also quite homoerotic. It pretty much depends on how you want to view it.

Onward

I don't really mind having my probably naive view of American society being demolished by actual Americans. If the gender divide isn't as great as I thought it was, so be it. However, it leads me to wonder how I got the impression it was in the first place. Obviously I could simply be warped and stupid, however perhaps there is merit in saying that when American culture projects itself, either in tv, cinema, literature or other, that it seems to idealise a greater gender divide than what really exists?