NationStates Jolt Archive

The Farce on Capitol Hill

For those who were unable to watch the BATFE Congressional Hearings, JPFO has an audio recording available for download at www.jpfo.org/batfehearings.htm . We anticipate aquiring a transcript of the hearing by early next week.

Despite the ostensible purpose of the proceedings -- to investigate allegations of abuse by ATF agents -- a fair amount of airtime was spent on the subject of private sales at gunshows, or "closing the gun show 'loophole'." One firearms dealer suggested all private sellers be required to retain a copy of the purchaser's ID, while a Congressman suggested requiring background checks on all private purchases. One must question why our leaders find the private sale of firearms so worrisome...and what they intend to do about it.

Some additional quotes from the hearing:

"'The problem is 90% black.'" - Annette Gelles (Owner, Showmaster Gunshows), quoting ATF agents

"Under 30 and black, that's what they're looking for." - Susan McCoombis (private investigator)

"'We have to do some [residency checks on white buyers] or we'll catch flack.'" - Susan McCoombis, quoting ATF agents at Richmond gun show

"Every woman who comes to my table to buy a firearm is automatically a straw purchaser." - John White (gunsmith)

"I find it very difficult to believe ATF agents were engaging in racial profiling!" - (Congressman, name unknown) :rolleyes:

At the end of the hearing, Chairman Roble mentions that the ATF will be present at a subsequent hearing on the 28th to answer questions. It is interesting to note, however, that the Congressional calendar shows no events listed for the 28th, ATF-related or otherwise. Will this future hearing be public, or a closed-door "inquiry" that is nothing more than a farce?

Download the file, listen to it, and distribute it widely.
Ask yourself, "Do my representatives really represent ME?"
And then ask yourself, "Aren't I ready for a Bill of Rights culture?" ( http://www.jpfo.org/borculture.htm )

So what....if black werent statisticly more likely to commit crimes, then maybe they wouldnt be saying that stuff in the first place....So whos fault is that?

And were this about anything but firearms, the NAACP, Rainbow/PUSH, ACLU and every civil rights organization would be would be calling for the Agents' heads on platters.

What will the predicted response most likely be ?



**crickets**

So what....if black werent statisticly more likely to commit crimes, then maybe they wouldnt be saying that stuff in the first place....So whos fault is that?

I'm sure it will be blamed on Bush sometime soon. :)

I'm sure it will be blamed on Bush sometime soon. :)

Theres absolutely no doubt in my mind.

Bush, The Russians, or rascist White Americans.

And were this about anything but firearms, the NAACP, Rainbow/PUSH, ACLU and every civil rights organization would be would be calling for the Agents' heads on platters.

What will the predicted response most likely be ?

**crickets**
The ACLU doesn't do 2nd Amendment stuff. That's up to the NRA. :rolleyes:

Umm… the society that allowed (magically of course) for there to be such a high statistical correlation between those who have African heritage and those who find themselves in poor socio-economic status; which is one of the major causes of crime.

Maybe I have taken too much sociology but that statement is probably borderline racist and I can only assume that you did not mean it that way.

It could be borderline whatever you want to call it...but the fact remains that its the truth. Look it up in Americas statistics.

Hey...we freed them, we gave them equality, we gave them everything Whites have....is it our fault if they still comprise more of Americas criminals?

What else do you want us to do that doesnt involve being racist....and yes, positive discrimination IS rascist.

Umm… the society that allowed (magically of course) for there to be such a high statistical correlation between those who have African heritage and those who find themselves in poor socio-economic status; which is one of the major causes of crime.

Maybe I have taken too much sociology but that statement is probably borderline racist and I can only assume that you did not mean it that way.


Unfortunately, the statistics hold him to be accurate. The 15-35 Black male demographic makes up 2.1% of the US population as of 2003. They also make up 28% of the nations homicides w/ the majority being black on black. As for poverty:

According to a Census Bureau press release from 1998,

In 1997, the number and poverty rate of African Americans was 9.1 million and 26.5 percent, compared with 24.4 million and 11.0 percent for Whites; 1.5 million and 14.0 percent for Asians and Pacific Islanders; and 8.3 million and 27.1 percent for Hispanics. The poverty rate for Hispanics did not differ statistically from the rate for African Americans.

For families, the number and percentage of poor in 1997 was 2.0 million and 23.6 percent for African Americans; 5.0 million and 8.4 percent for Whites; 244,000 and 10.2 percent for Asians and Pacific Islanders; and 1.7 million and 24.7 percent for Hispanics. The poverty rate for Hispanics did not differ statistically from the rate for African Americans.

In 1997 the homicide rate for black males 15-35 was 2.6 times the rate for Hispanic males in the same age group. It was ten times the rate for Asians & Pacific Islanders.



The questionis then, why are young black males six times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than the average non-black young male? They aren't six times more poverty-stricken than other poor groups. They aren't even 2.6 times more poverty-stricken than Hispanics.

The ACLU doesn't do 2nd Amendment stuff. That's up to the NRA. :rolleyes:


But it does do profiling.

Here's an article you might get a kick out of:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA020506.03A.Stinson.24665cb.html

Hey...we freed them, we gave them equality, we gave them everything Whites have....is it our fault if they still comprise more of Americas criminals?

YOU freed them? You GAVE them equality and 'everything that Whites have'? So black people didn't fight tooth and nail for those things? That was all an illusion? Out of the goodness of their hearts, white people just suddenly decided, ''hey! let's give these black folk some equality! woohoo!'. That's a very interesting perspective on history.

Hey...we freed them, we gave them equality, we gave them everything Whites have....is it our fault if they still comprise more of Americas criminals?
Surely you know that the problem goes deeper than that. I'd dispute that there really is equality for one thing, just like with women at work, there is some discrimination there, even if it's not written down in the laws anymore.

But we all know that without some sort of starting capital, getting rich is a difficult thing. And since freed slaves are not particularly rich, and since black people after the Civil Rights Movement weren't particularly rich either (on average), there is no reason to assume that the chance of any random black person to be rich is particularly large.

Anyway, I think in this case the agents just reflect the values of society around them: Who are Americans scared of? It's not white people.

YOU freed them? You GAVE them equality and 'everything that Whites have'? So black people didn't fight tooth and nail for those things? That was all an illusion? Out of the goodness of their hearts, white people just suddenly decided, ''hey! let's give these black folk some equality! woohoo!'. That's a very interesting perspective on history.

Um...well lets see we fought a war over it...among other things...declared slavery abolished....declared civil equalities for blacks....so yes, I would say we gave it to them.

Our government is white and the government did free them and give them equality, so I really dont see where your going with this....honestly.

What happend in Mississippi and its border states doesnt reflect the WHOLE country, contrary to popular beleif....

But it does do profiling.

Here's an article you might get a kick out of:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA020506.03A.Stinson.24665cb.html
Wow. Just, wow. :eek: I never thought I'd see the day. :eek:

Unfortunately, the statistics hold him to be accurate. The 15-35 Black male demographic makes up 2.1% of the US population as of 2003. They also make up 28% of the nations homicides w/ the majority being black on black. As for poverty:

According to a Census Bureau press release from 1998,

In 1997, the number and poverty rate of African Americans was 9.1 million and 26.5 percent, compared with 24.4 million and 11.0 percent for Whites; 1.5 million and 14.0 percent for Asians and Pacific Islanders; and 8.3 million and 27.1 percent for Hispanics. The poverty rate for Hispanics did not differ statistically from the rate for African Americans.

For families, the number and percentage of poor in 1997 was 2.0 million and 23.6 percent for African Americans; 5.0 million and 8.4 percent for Whites; 244,000 and 10.2 percent for Asians and Pacific Islanders; and 1.7 million and 24.7 percent for Hispanics. The poverty rate for Hispanics did not differ statistically from the rate for African Americans.

In 1997 the homicide rate for black males 15-35 was 2.6 times the rate for Hispanic males in the same age group. It was ten times the rate for Asians & Pacific Islanders.



The questionis then, why are young black males six times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than the average non-black young male? They aren't six times more poverty-stricken than other poor groups. They aren't even 2.6 times more poverty-stricken than Hispanics.

And that, young jedi, is the question.

By the way, your now officially my lord and savior for posting these stats.

Anyway, I think in this case the agents just reflect the values of society around them: Who are Americans scared of? It's not white people.
Frankly, I'm not scared of anyone but the government.

I'm not scared of criminals because I am armed.

And because I AM scared of the government I am also armed.

Amazing how that works.

Surely you know that the problem goes deeper than that. I'd dispute that there really is equality for one thing, just like with women at work, there is some discrimination there, even if it's not written down in the laws anymore.

But we all know that without some sort of starting capital, getting rich is a difficult thing. And since freed slaves are not particularly rich, and since black people after the Civil Rights Movement weren't particularly rich either (on average), there is no reason to assume that the chance of any random black person to be rich is particularly large.

Anyway, I think in this case the agents just reflect the values of society around them: Who are Americans scared of? It's not white people.

Well, the America way of thinking is....blacks arnt the only ones who have to start there way from down there and work there way to up there.

The Irish did it, so did the Italians, so did the Russians and the Germans. Not too mention the Catholics and the Jews from any country of origin.

Basically America is waiting for blacks to suck it up, stop blaming the man and get some work down, like everyone else did before them...they are not unique and anyone who says they are and that they need special help because they cannot compete with other races is a total rascist...in my mind.

And that, young jedi, is the question.

By the way, your now officially my lord and savior for posting these stats.

I accept your worship. Remember though that I am a spiteful God.

I oppose racial profiling. While it would be more "efficient" in crime control, it is morally and ethically wrong.

It cheeses me to no end that civil rights groups will most likely ignore this whole fracas even though it's blatantly illegal just because it's about firearms.

Wow. Just, wow. :eek: I never thought I'd see the day. :eek:

You're welcome.

<snip>
Is it just me, or do you always come out of hiding whenever there's a good gun control thread? :D

I accept your worship. Remember though that I am a spiteful God.

I oppose racial profiling. While it would be more "efficient" in crime control, it is morally and ethically wrong.

It cheeses me to no end that civil rights groups will most likely ignore this whole fracas even though it's blatantly illegal just because it's about firearms.

No but seriously...I think racial profile is a good thing. What the hell is the point of searching a grandma with her baby when you could be searching "that darkie over there named Achmed?"

Is it just me, or do you always come out of hiding whenever there's a good gun control thread? :D

It's my main thing. I admit that. I post on and off fairly regularly though. Everyone just ignores me then though. :(

No but seriously...I think racial profile is a good thing. What the hell is the point of searching a grandma with her baby when you could be searching "that darkie over there named Achmed?"
#1 - That is unnecessairly offensive.

#2 - There is a MAJOR difference between profiling in a secure zone and on the public street.

At a political event you are damn skippy I am going to "profile" someone wearing a "Kill them all, Anarchy Rulz!!" Tshirt, but wouldn't look twice at them on the street.

Same goes for any secure zone and identified "threat groups". I would not care less about Keru's sneakers unless he tried to board a plane to Heathrow... ;)

Well, the America way of thinking is....blacks arnt the only ones who have to start there way from down there and work there way to up there.

The Irish did it, so did the Italians, so did the Russians and the Germans. Not too mention the Catholics and the Jews from any country of origin.

Well, ya, by forming crime syndicates. They got guns and fought their way out.

Basically America is waiting for blacks to suck it up, stop blaming the man and get some work down, like everyone else did before them...they are not unique and anyone who says they are and that they need special help because they cannot compete with other races is a total rascist...in my mind.

well, it would help to stop selling the image of ignorant, drug dealing and violent criminals as heros.

The Irish did it, so did the Italians, so did the Russians and the Germans. Not too mention the Catholics and the Jews from any country of origin.
Note though that that was a different America, the one in the history books, and that the racism was never quite as harsh against those groups as it was with the blacks.

well, it would help to stop selling the image of ignorant, drug dealing and violent criminals as heros.

What, you mean that if people don't want to be treated like thugs, they shouldn't act like thugs?

Well, ya, by forming crime syndicates. They got guns and fought their way out.



well, it would help to stop selling the image of ignorant, drug dealing and violent criminals as heros.


Have you heard about the "STOP Snitchin' " fad?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05291/590424.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Snitchin'

Note though that that was a different America, the one in the history books, and that the racism was never quite as harsh against those groups as it was with the blacks.

Well, it is hard to compare, but my point is that those then-minority groups werent exactly living it...Also, thats not a different America...its the same one, we have just evolved and grown up considerably, although we havnt changed altogther.

It may just be me, but for the most part I’ve stopped looking at people by the color of their skin and more by what they wear. If I see somebody in all black I figure there is a person who does not want to be bothered. Somebody in a full suit and tie is somebody who is trying to gain the respect of others. However when I see somebody in extra baggy pants, a wife beater shirt, tons of "bling" and that stupid gimp walk I cant help but think of them as... ... an idiot. For all I know they could be in Mensa but when you dress like that and act like that you kind of deserve the weird looks. As for the issue of people being profiled when purchasing firearms at gun shows, I can’t help but agree. I AM black and I would look at another black person funny if they purchased a gun. Of course both of my parents are white and I was raised in the yuppie part of town... So it may just be me. I have to agree with one of the previous posters, it’s just like every other migrant group of people coming to America. If black people would stop causing so much violence and work on changing the stereotypes put upon them this type of profiling would end.

Have you heard about the "STOP Snitchin' " fad?
Yay! The Omerta is back!

Libertarian heroes, that's what they are.

Also, thats not a different America...its the same one, we have just evolved and grown up considerably, although we havnt changed altogther.
You see, I believe you have.

Franklin's America was meant to be fundamentally different from normal countries. It was supposed to be no more than a framework for individuals to make their life. It wasn't supposed to have an army, fight overseas or anything like that.

Ever since then, the move has been towards everything the founding fathers would have detested. And today, people honestly defend a government spying on its people's private conversations while waving a flag and yelling "National Security!".

Not to forget that people in the US now have rediscovered the idea of "social classes", which goes absolutely against individualism and everything the American idea was supposed to stand for.

Note though that that was a different America, the one in the history books, and that the racism was never quite as harsh against those groups as it was with the blacks.

What about the "White ******" Irish?

What about the "White ******" Irish?
There were incidents like that, I know. But I would argue that it was never as wide-spread or institutionalised as it was with black people.

AFAIK, there never was an Irish slave in the US.

Well, the America way of thinking is....blacks arnt the only ones who have to start there way from down there and work there way to up there.

The Irish did it, so did the Italians, so did the Russians and the Germans. Not too mention the Catholics and the Jews from any country of origin.

Basically America is waiting for blacks to suck it up, stop blaming the man and get some work down, like everyone else did before them...they are not unique and anyone who says they are and that they need special help because they cannot compete with other races is a total rascist...in my mind.

Blacks do not need nor, for the most part, ask for "special help." Equality is not "special help", however much the homophobes and the racists love to insist it is.

Well, ya, by forming crime syndicates. They got guns and fought their way out.

Totally not true and totally ignorant if you are, in fact, basing this on the Italian mafia.


well, it would help to stop selling the image of ignorant, drug dealing and violent criminals as heros.


I agree. It doesnt help when we have some Shvartzs come up and glorify drug dealing and pimping on our radio stations.

It may just be me, but for the most part I’ve stopped looking at people by the color of their skin and more by what they wear. If I see somebody in all black I figure there is a person who does not want to be bothered. Somebody in a full suit and tie is somebody who is trying to gain the respect of others. However when I see somebody in extra baggy pants, a wife beater shirt, tons of "bling" and that stupid gimp walk I cant help but think of them as... ... an idiot. For all I know they could be in Mensa but when you dress like that and act like that you kind of deserve the weird looks. As for the issue of people being profiled when purchasing firearms at gun shows, I can’t help but agree. I AM black and I would look at another black person funny if they purchased a gun. Of course both of my parents are white and I was raised in the yuppie part of town... So it may just be me. I have to agree with one of the previous posters, it’s just like every other migrant group of people coming to America. If black people would stop causing so much violence and work on changing the stereotypes put upon them this type of profiling would end.

God, this country would be so much better if more blacks and non blacks alike, thought like you.

Your a very good person, I admire that.

You see, I believe you have.

Franklin's America was meant to be fundamentally different from normal countries. It was supposed to be no more than a framework for individuals to make their life. It wasn't supposed to have an army, fight overseas or anything like that.

Ever since then, the move has been towards everything the founding fathers would have detested. And today, people honestly defend a government spying on its people's private conversations while waving a flag and yelling "National Security!".

Not to forget that people in the US now have rediscovered the idea of "social classes", which goes absolutely against individualism and everything the American idea was supposed to stand for.

Times change.

Its just like how the Jews (Hebrews) used to be bruthless warriors that would kill people and take them over, but, Jews realized that they live in a world where you cant be like that anymore, and they have adapted with the times.

So has America, adapted with the times...we cant be an isolationist paradise anymore. It worked for about 125 years and then we were set on a different course, a more policeman course...and that is the path America has chosen and will take.

Trust me, no one here has forgetten the comforts of isolationism, but our world today just doesnt allow it from a country like America.

As for the spying on our citizens...well I truley beleive that they only spie on people that they really beleive to be a threat....I dont know if thats correct or not, thats just what I'm hoping. I have enough faith in my country to atleast hope that they are using their powers for good.

...I truley beleive that they only spie on people that they really beleive to be a threat....I dont know if thats correct or not, thats just what I'm hoping. I have enough faith in my country to atleast hope that they are using their powers for good.
See, that is anti-American in the traditional sense of the word.

See, that is anti-American in the traditional sense of the word.

What do you mean, exactly?

Its anti-American to be loyal and have faith in your country?

I dont like many aspects of our government and I beleive its more of needed evil more than anything, but I truley beleive that my President is doing the right thing to fight terrorism.

You see, I believe you have.

Franklin's America was meant to be fundamentally different from normal countries. It was supposed to be no more than a framework for individuals to make their life. It wasn't supposed to have an army, fight overseas or anything like that.

Ever since then, the move has been towards everything the founding fathers would have detested. And today, people honestly defend a government spying on its people's private conversations while waving a flag and yelling "National Security!".

Not to forget that people in the US now have rediscovered the idea of "social classes", which goes absolutely against individualism and everything the American idea was supposed to stand for.
WTF?!! Now I'm agreeing with NL? Or is it he's finally agreeing with me.... Hmmmm... (ponder, ponder) ;)

What do you mean, exactly?

Its anti-American to be loyal and have faith in your country?

I dont like many aspects of our government and I beleive its more of needed evil more than anything, but I truley beleive that my President is doing the right thing to fight terrorism.
Quotes by some real Americans:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Necessity never made a good bargain.
He that lieth down with Dogs, shall rise up with Fleas.
Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
How soon we forget history... Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Kind of creepy...I'd like to see those racists publicly exposed for what they are.

Um...well lets see we fought a war over it...among other things...declared slavery abolished....declared civil equalities for blacks....so yes, I would say we gave it to them.Er...there's a difference between declaring something to be the case and something actually being the case.

Quotes by some real Americans:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Necessity never made a good bargain.
He that lieth down with Dogs, shall rise up with Fleas.
Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
How soon we forget history... Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

thank you thank you thank you...n/l

and i agree the domestic spying without warrants is despicable,and an affront to our way of life.

and everyone should know by now..if the omni present gov. wants to get you,they will find a way to get a warrant,man it sickens me what people will trade for a bit of(false) security!

did i say thanks for pointing out what america really should be?:fluffle:

Kind of creepy...I'd like to see those racists publicly exposed for what they are.
JPF0 is working on it.

And at least the racists here are publicly exposing themselves brilliantly enough with their epithets. :rolleyes:

Quotes by some real Americans: <snip>
Stop it dammit! I was getting used to being annoyed with your posts. :p When did you turn Classic Liberal? ;)

JPF0 is working on it.

And at least the racists here are publicly exposing themselves brilliantly enough with their epithets. :rolleyes:Yes, it's a good thing none of them have positions of power (I hope).

Stop it dammit! I was getting used to being annoyed with your posts. :p When did you turn Classic Liberal? ;)
Well, I can admire America for the good idea it once was, can't I? Which makes it all the more tragic that it has turned into this ... thing it is now.

I think I might always have been liberal, except that I don't think that the Free Market is ultimately perfect. It'll need some help to work well.

But I was always a Civil Libertarian, except for one particular case, and that's with Neonazis denying the Holocaust and other such hate speech. I'm not too fond of that.

EDIT: Oh, and guns. They do more harm than good really. But then, I'm not American, and being liberal in Europe doesn't require you to want everyone to own a murder weapon. ;)

EDIT: Oh, and guns. They do more harm than good really. But then, I'm not American, and being liberal in Europe doesn't require you to want everyone to own a murder weapon. ;)
Much better. Now I can go back to dismissing your silly Euro opinion. ;) :D

and being liberal in Europe doesn't require you to want everyone to own a murder weapon. ;)

I don't believe liberals in America want that either.

I don't believe liberals in America want that either.

Liberals in Europe are more the libertarians of America

Economically they are right wing, but socially they are left wing.

Totally not true and totally ignorant if you are, in fact, basing this on the Italian mafia.

No, I'm basing it off of the research I did to get my degree in American history.

Ever heard of Tammany Hall? The Westies?

Are you also going to tell me there was no Jewish mafia and there is no Russian mob?


I agree. It doesnt help when we have some Shvartzs come up and glorify drug dealing and pimping on our radio stations.

Actually, its the old rich white guys in executive board rooms that are doing the pimping. The fucking dolts we see on MTV are just willing patsies.

No, I'm basing it off of the research I did to get my degree in American history.

Ever heard of Tammany Hall? The Westies?

Are you also going to tell me there was no Jewish mafia and there is no Russian mob?




Actually, its the old rich white guys in executive board rooms that are doing the pimping. The fucking dolts we see on MTV are just willing patsies.

That sounds like something I would hear on Stormfront.

Are you saying that the whole gangster culture is actually rich old white guy culture as opposed to black America culture?

Edit: your pointing out individuals...as a whole they sucked it up, integrated and did fine.

Economically they are right wing, but socially they are left wing.

How exactly do they pay for their liberal social policies in that case?

How exactly do they pay for their liberal social policies in that case?

Easy. Scandanavian Capitalism is one example.

But it does do profiling.

Here's an article you might get a kick out of:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA020506.03A.Stinson.24665cb.html
Good for Texas and good for the local ACLU. We've had that right written into Georgia law for quite some time.

How exactly do they pay for their liberal social policies in that case?
They don't. European liberals (just as US Libertarians) don't want policies, they want a lack of policies.

Have a look at the ELDR, since that is the best example right now.
http://www.eldr.org/index.php?newlang=english

That sounds like something I would hear on Stormfront.

Are you saying that the whole gangster culture is actually rich old white guy culture as opposed to black America culture?

I'm saying its both. Who do you think signs the checks on these record deals?

Edit: your pointing out individuals...as a whole they sucked it up, integrated and did fine.

And you think black people in general are different?

How exactly do they pay for their liberal social policies in that case?

Liberal in the US = Socialist everywhere else.

Libertarian in the US = Liberal everywhere else.

EDIT: Oh, and guns. They do more harm than good really. But then, I'm not American, and being liberal in Europe doesn't require you to want everyone to own a murder weapon. ;)


You were doing really well up to that point. I own several firearms, given that a large percentage of them are military surplus I'd say that it's likely they've been used to kill another human with as well. The last time I checked however, they've yet to leap from my safe and attack anyone. The firearm isn't a murder weapon until it is used, by a HUMAN, to murder someone. Until then it is a tool, just like a hammer, a drill, or any number of other common items that could also be used to murder someone.

Someone posted a quote earlier, something to the effect that it's wrong to restrict an individuals rights because you fear he may abuse those rights. A free country necessitates that you accept that risk and rather than restricting the rights of those that are innocent you prosecute those that are not. Don't punish me, a 36 year old male with no criminal record of any kind beyond a speeding ticket or two, because someone else has used a tool in the commission of a crime that I had nothing to do with and no knowledge of.

The ACLU doesn't do 2nd Amendment stuff. That's up to the NRA. :rolleyes:


Screw the NRA, its their cowardly "law and order" compromises that have gotten us into this mess. Now the SAF on the other hand...

Screw the NRA, its their cowardly "law and order" compromises that have gotten us into this mess. Now the SAF on the other hand...Not to mention the JPFO (as posted in the OP) and the GOA.... The NRA is part of the Problem. They don't make money if Gun Control goes away.

As for the spying on our citizens...well I truley beleive that they only spie on people that they really beleive to be a threat....I dont know if thats correct or not, thats just what I'm hoping. I have enough faith in my country to atleast hope that they are using their powers for good.


Governments can only be counted upon to use their powers for good when they have a gun to their heads. Our country is founded on the notion that the government is a necessary evil and that citizens need to be constantly vigilant in regards to tyranny. Neo-conservatism is just Stalinism wrapped in an American flag, buddy.

What do you mean, exactly?

Its anti-American to be loyal and have faith in your country?

I dont like many aspects of our government and I beleive its more of needed evil more than anything, but I truley beleive that my President is doing the right thing to fight terrorism.

In a word: yes. Loyalty is not something our founders had, they raised arms over taxes and killed the agents of their government. They were traitors to the crown and proud of their treason. When it was over, they grouped themselves together in a loose coalition of states because they wanted to avoid any federal entanglements. They penned a constitution that speaks of an ingrained distrust of government. America isn't about loyalty to anything but the individual, and it is based upon a distinct lack of faith in government entities of all stripes.

That sounds like something I would hear on Stormfront.

Are you saying that the whole gangster culture is actually rich old white guy culture as opposed to black America culture?

Edit: your pointing out individuals...as a whole they sucked it up, integrated and did fine.


As someone who grew up in Chicago, yeah, it is. The MTV Gansta Rap culture is mostly an invented culture. Its like black face or a minstrel show, it is a gross exaggeration of black culture engineered to entertain suburban white youth. Asshats like 50 cent running around calling themselves bullet-proof or Sean Combs recording a tearjerking requiem for a crack dealer just push black America backwards by reinforcing the negative stereotypes of the white kids who pay their bills. The reality is that most people who live in a ghetto aren't gansters, they're poor people who work two jobs so that maybe their kids will have a better shot than they did. The saddest thing about the ganster culture is that a handful of each generation buys into it and gets themselves killed.

The ACLU doesn't do 2nd Amendment stuff. That's up to the NRA. :rolleyes:

Funny, I thought they fought for civil liberties. They do appear rather selective of what they stand behind.

You were doing really well up to that point. I own several firearms, given that a large percentage of them are military surplus I'd say that it's likely they've been used to kill another human with as well. The last time I checked however, they've yet to leap from my safe and attack anyone. The firearm isn't a murder weapon until it is used, by a HUMAN, to murder someone. Until then it is a tool, just like a hammer, a drill, or any number of other common items that could also be used to murder someone.

Someone posted a quote earlier, something to the effect that it's wrong to restrict an individuals rights because you fear he may abuse those rights. A free country necessitates that you accept that risk and rather than restricting the rights of those that are innocent you prosecute those that are not. Don't punish me, a 36 year old male with no criminal record of any kind beyond a speeding ticket or two, because someone else has used a tool in the commission of a crime that I had nothing to do with and no knowledge of.


Bingo, this is what I have been saying all along. My other question posed to all anti-gunownership people. Why is it that lawabiding gun owners need to give up thier guns/hobby? Why is it that the people who are doing the right thing need to be penalized because of a criminal minority?

Bingo, this is what I have been saying all along. My other question posed to all anti-gunownership people. Why is it that lawabiding gun owners need to give up thier guns/hobby? Why is it that the people who are doing the right thing need to be penalized because of a criminal minority?

Mostly the reason given is that it will make us "safer". You know, just like in Rwanda.

Mostly the reason given is that it will make us "safer". You know, just like in Rwanda.

Well, I do not wish to antagonize for to get a answer. In many ways I can understand why those from other countries who do not have any knowledge about guns aside from watching them blaze away in movies (Do not get me started about the inaccuracy shown in movies about any sort equipement) and sometimes in the evening news when a criminal uses one to commit a violent act. This forms a mindset that guns are bad, period. Unfortunantly, many of these people will never understand the fun of trying to put a very tiny peice of metal through a peice of paper 1,2,3+ football field lengths away. They will never understand the nastalgia of having a rifle used in a war in years past. Just the thrill of being able to handle, work on, and admire something that had a small hand in shaping the world as it is today. To them, that peice of metal and wood represents violence, represents fear, and in some cases represents what exactly is wrong with humanity. Because of this they loathe guns, which in all honesty is absolutely fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hating something. However, what gets me is these people go on a crusade to ban the thing that they hate. Under the flag of anti-crime, social safety, and just flat phobias of guns they set out to remove all firearms. When someone has spent the amount of cash I have invested in my collection, I will have a very serious issue with this. Especially when the groups have to lie (brady campaign) to get the public on thier side in thier gun bans. Now, regardless of the banner they fly under or any genuine well meaning of these groups there is one thing that is ignored, the rights of the everyday citizen. No one seems concerned about those who keep guns for a hobby or recreational purpose. They by a very far margin outweigh those who use guns for malicious purposes. So, what these gun bans do is punish the lawful gun owners by taking away historical/recreational peices, not including the cash investment a owner expends to buy them. (Guns are by no means cheap) All this for what? You made a vast majority give up thier property for help ease your phobia. Something that may put a slight dent in crime level if any. This is simply unacceptable for any free country to follow through with something like this. What has just happened was like taking cough syrup for a serious flu. It may help releave a annoyance but does nothing to fight a deep seated virus in ourselves and in society. All that has happened is we banished a scapegoat instead of addressing the real problem. This is exactly why I am against any further gun control, I see any further as being punished for crimes that I did not commit while doing little to nothing to reduce crime or punish those who commit these crimes.

well said

<snip> No one seems concerned about those who keep guns for a hobby or recreational purpose. They by a very far margin outweigh those who use guns for malicious purposes. <snip>
And yet, the majority of those who would try to take guns away from law abiding gun owners insist that somehow we are different than the millions of peace loving muslims who don't bomb innocent people.

I just love inconsistancy. :headbang:

If all Guns are Bad and must be banned because a tiny minority of people use them for bad purposes, then Islam is Bad and must be banned too. Right?

Liberal in the US = Socialist everywhere else.

In most cases, actually, right social democrat.