NationStates Jolt Archive

Which spelling do you use, or want to see other people use?

(poll coming)

Woman. It is a traditional form, and is not insulting, save to those people who seem to find the existence of the male gender insulting.

Chick. Broad is acceptable too.

Either lady or madam.

I prefer "Your Highness"

Where's my sandwich?

I prefer "Your Highness"
"mistress" is also good ;)

Any woman who thinks that a different spelling of the word will guarantee respect, empowerment or strength is fooling herself, and Probably only contributing further to the demonisation and ridicule of feminism.

Is there something offensive about the traditional spelling of woman that I don't know?


oh, and I would stick to the traditional because there are too many words that are so messed up in the way they are spelled now, it's hard to teach a kid to read, when everything isn't spelled phonetically. ;)

A Waiter or Waitress is now a "Waitron"...

So does that make Trinidad Trinitron?

What idiots use Womyn?:confused:

What idiots use Womyn?:confused:
The ones who object to the word men in women.

What idiots use Womyn?:confused:
Quoted for Great Justice!

Seriously, as several others have mentioned, changing the spelling is a ridiculous idea, serving no purpose whatsoever.

That said, woman.

--dunerat

What idiots use Womyn?:confused:
HerPower ;)

i'll have roast beef on toasted rye, with pickles, mayo, Gulden's Mustard(tm), banana peppers and cut into 4 pieces diagonally.

What about Human? I mean WTF? I assume this is some daft shit from the USA right?

A Waiter or Waitress is now a "Waitron"...

So does that make Trinidad Trinitron?

We use the asexual "server"

"mistress" is also good ;)

Yes, if you happen to be a dominatrix...not that I have any objections to that, of course! :D

What about Human? I mean WTF? I assume this is some daft shit from the USA right?

I dunno...I thought we got most of the crazy militant fems in GB? Burning bras on the common and all that.

Call yourself what you like, but if you think you're important enough to suddenly change hundreds of years worth of use just over the suffix of a word then I'll call you a self-centered bitch.

Chick. Broad is acceptable too.

I prefer dame. Or Hey You.

Well, the word "woman" itself is etymologically derived from "wife-man" so changing the spelling is more or less pointless if you ask me.

I think you mean: Woman or Feminist Dyke

Well, the word "woman" itself is etymologically derived from "wife-man" so changing the spelling is more or less pointless if you ask me.
And it comes from when "man" could be used to refer to either sex. Same with mankind etc.

I vote woman. Or lady. Or madam. Or miss. Do you ever call any of your teachers "hey woman!"? I have to call all my irish teachers "miss ..." (because none of them are married for some reason... or at least, they pretend not to be).

Bah, I prefer just calling people by their first name. None of my non-english teachers ever mind :D

I dunno...I thought we got most of the crazy militant fems in GB? Burning bras on the common and all that.

Did you know bras were actually good for women? Especially sports bras (if they're doing sports). Otherwise, they risk serious skin and breast injury. BBC had some news on that.

HerPower ;)
I'm amazed she made such a powerful impact in just two short days...oh, I wish the mods would let HerPower return...her and her groom-to-be, Jesussaves...

I'm amazed she made such a powerful impact in just two short days...oh, I wish the mods would let HerPower return...her and her groom-to-be, Jesussaves...
Aye, if the mods had let them stay this place would have been alot more fun.

Alright, who voted for Womyn? :D

It just seems to me like feminists have bigger fish to fry than the spelling of the word 'woman'.

Women who are equally qualified as men are being kept out of top-level positions and paid less when they're let in. This is a real issue. Given the real problems for women out there, making noise about spelling it 'Womyn' seems to me like just action for action's sake -- maybe an attention-getting ploy.

It just seems to me like feminists have bigger fish to fry than the spelling of the word 'woman'.

Women who are equally qualified as men are being kept out of top-level positions and paid less when they're let in. This is a real issue. Given the real problems for women out there, making noise about spelling it 'Womyn' seems to me like just action for action's sake -- maybe an attention-getting ploy.Yes. A ploy by anti-feminists who like to pretend that all feminists are radical man-hating lesbians. A ploy intended to show feminism as pointless and silly, and deflect attention away from the deeper issues that feminism addresses.

Womyn? Oh, please. I really hope this is a joke. Seriously, I'm 100% for equality, but the only person who could support "Womyn" would have to be a radical lesbian sexist. Down with men? After all, the only thing we're good for is mating, and womyn are still better for that. :rolleyes:

What about Human? I mean WTF? I assume this is some daft shit from the USA right?
No, it is some daft shit from the Interweb.
And, as for my language choice, you're either a "Woman" or "Yo, bitch", take your pick.

Alright, who voted for Womyn? :D

Yeah. This definitely should've been an open poll. Womyn nothing... it would make me feel like a Wyrm.

Down with men? After all, the only thing we're good for is mating

Womyn is stupid. Down with men, in the mating sense, sounds like a good idea, though!

Seriously. Bigger issues in the world for feminists.

I just say "whore" or "bitch"

Now I await to be pelted.:)

Why the question?

After all, the only thing we're good for is mating, and womyn are still better for that. :rolleyes:
And don't forget it! :p

I think woman because the original derivation of the "man" was less to do with the subjugation of man over woman and more to do with linguistic norms a thousand years ago in England. Then again why not use "man" as the neutral term and create a new name for the male? After all it was men who assumed the universalised term 'man' that had wo attached to differentiate

Did you know bras were actually good for women? Especially sports bras (if they're doing sports). Otherwise, they risk serious skin and breast injury. BBC had some news on that.

Yeah, burning bras didn't make a lot of sense. Guys were happy about it because boobs were bouncy, and girls weren't happy about it because they had no chest support. Absolutely no point. "But it was symbolic!" - And they were idiots who couldn't find something better to symbolize it.

woman

I think woman because the original derivation of the "man" was less to do with the subjugation of man over woman and more to do with linguistic norms a thousand years ago in England. Then again why not use "man" as the neutral term and create a new name for the male? After all it was men who assumed the universalised term 'man' that had wo attached to differentiate

A new term for man should be "Master" and woman should just be chick. How about that?

Yeah, burning bras didn't make a lot of sense. Guys were happy about it because boobs were bouncy, and girls weren't happy about it because they had no chest support. Absolutely no point. "But it was symbolic!" - And they were idiots who couldn't find something better to symbolize it.

But if they're feminists doesn't that mean they look like butch dudes anyway? >_>

I only have female slaves in my kitchen :p .

Womyn
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Womyn is the best-known one of a number of alternate spellings which some feminists promote as a way to degender the English word women and as female empowerment. Other variants include wimmin (plural), wom!n, womban and womon (singular), while femal (from female) and humyn (human) apply the principle elsewhere. All are pronounced the same as the conventional terms.

Go Wikipedia it actually had it in there. Who knew :D theres more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn

point if it sounds the same what is the point

Woman. It is a traditional form, and is not insulting, save to those people who seem to find the existence of the male gender insulting.

My thoughts exactly.

The ones who object to the word men in women.

I am a staunch feminist, but that's like objecting to being called 'human'! i.e. it's ridiculous!!!

Womyn
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Womyn is the best-known one of a number of alternate spellings which some feminists promote as a way to degender the English word women and as female empowerment. Other variants include wimmin (plural), wom!n, womban and womon (singular), while femal (from female) and humyn (human) apply the principle elsewhere. All are pronounced the same as the conventional terms.
I've always wondered what UberFems have to say about languages with REAL genders, like French or German.

Oh, wait, UberFeminisim is not about things like gender in languages, it's about hating the US.

Never mind.

http://uncyclopedia.org/images/thumb/f/f9/WOMAN.jpg/400px-WOMAN.jpg

http://uncyclopedia.org/images/0/03/Women_evil.jpg

What about wombat? Is that taken?

What about wombat? Is that taken?

Heh...

"I am wombat, hear me roar!"

Why not just start calling men wermen? Sounds much more neat. Plus, hardcore feminists will be able to make puns about groups of more than one werman.

Yes. A ploy by anti-feminists who like to pretend that all feminists are radical man-hating lesbians. A ploy intended to show feminism as pointless and silly, and deflect attention away from the deeper issues that feminism addresses.

Like cheaper abortion prices and sex changes. >_>

Any woman who thinks that a different spelling of the word will guarantee respect, empowerment or strength is fooling herself, and Probably only contributing further to the demonisation and ridicule of feminism.
No-one is saying that this spelling will guarantee respect. As a radical feminist I can say that people use this spelling (which I use sometimes, but mostly not- depends on the audience) as a consciousness-raising tool, to make people think about the place women have in society, particularly in relation to men. And it's got nothing to do with "man-hating."

Fuck it, I'm tired of having to defend feminism on these boards...

Fuck it, I'm tired of having to defend feminism on these boards...
No shit. I think we should just have a file of the stock defences so we can copy and paste rather than waste the time and effort on people who really, really just want to hate feminism anyway.

Like cheaper abortion prices and sex changes. >_>
Yes. That's absolutely the entire focus of global feminism. Your summation is breathtaking in its accuracy. <_<

So what will they do for male and female? Femail? Femayle?

EDIT: This is just a question, don't jump me. I'm all for fair wages and employing women for a professional reason instead of...well...ya know.

i'll have roast beef on toasted rye, with pickles, mayo, Gulden's Mustard(tm), banana peppers and cut into 4 pieces diagonally.

i agree this thread made me hungry womyn indeed...

So what will they do for male and female? Femail? Femayle?
And why do they only attack English (particularly the American variant) for its "sexisim" when we have an essentially linguistically gender neutral language?

(Hint - it's all about Politics, not Equality)

No-one is saying that this spelling will guarantee respect. As a radical feminist I can say that people use this spelling (which I use sometimes, but mostly not- depends on the audience) as a consciousness-raising tool, to make people think about the place women have in society, particularly in relation to men. And it's got nothing to do with "man-hating."

Fuck it, I'm tired of having to defend feminism on these boards...

Kinda makes sense in that context, but I prefer to use the traditional spelling, personally.
There's something similar going on among Wiccans and other magic practitioners, where some people spell what they do 'magick' to differentiate between what they do and the more conventional views of magic. Again, I choose to spell it the traditional way; there's no difference in pronunciation anyway, and if I wish to be more specific I can simply capitalize the word when I write. But I'm getting off-topic.
Yeah, burning bras is just a dumb thing to do. If you're going to be symbolic, I would suggest corsets (mind you, corsets are really expensive and now barely used outside the bedroom) or perhaps aprons. I really don't know, though; symbolism isn't my forte, and I think that many of these demonstrations don't accomplish much except generate more garbage. I think a more productive thing would be creating artwork, writing, maybe a parade or two. I may be stating the obvious, but people are more likely to respond positively if they think you aren't nuts and unable to think about the consequences of your actions.

(Hint - it's all about Politics, not Equality)

Something tells me they might get rather stirred if Hiliary runs for the presidency.

And why do they only attack English (particularly the American variant) for its "sexisim" when we have an essentially linguistically gender neutral language?

(Hint - it's all about Politics, not Equality)
So our nouns aren't masculine or feminine, big deal. The way language is used does however tend to favour the male. For example, masculinity is an assumed norm- see the internet as an example.

And how the fuck can you separate politics and equality? Political tools are used to fight for equality. And don't tell me we're already equal because that's a load of horseshite.

Something tells me they might get rather stirred if Hiliary runs for the presidency.
That's why I want Condi to run too. Elections are muddy. That one would be a Cat Fight.

Mmmmm Mudwrestling Wimmin! ;)

Something tells me they might get rather stirred if Hiliary runs for the presidency.
WTF? I'm an anarchist. I don't give a fuck who runs for the presidency, we'll still get the same shit.

So our nouns aren't masculine or feminine, big deal. The way language is used does however tend to favour the male. For example, masculinity is an assumed norm- see the internet as an example.

And how the fuck can you separate politics and equality? Political tools are used to fight for equality. And don't tell me we're already equal because that's a load of horseshite.
I tend to think women are better, but that's just the chilvarous reactionary in me.

I spell it with 3 Rs, 2 silent Qs, and 7 Us.

I spell it with 3 Rs, 2 silent Qs, and 7 Us.
A true revolutionary. *tips hat*
:p

Kinda makes sense in that context, but I prefer to use the traditional spelling, personally.
There's something similar going on among Wiccans and other magic practitioners, where some people spell what they do 'magick' to differentiate between what they do and the more conventional views of magic. Again, I choose to spell it the traditional way; there's no difference in pronunciation anyway, and if I wish I can simply capitalize the word when I write.
It is a bit odd though, at least if my limited knowledge of linguistics is correct.

Didn't people invent the words "woman" & "women" to differentiate between the genders in the first place? - I was under the impression everyone - regardless of sex - used to be called men.

WTF? I'm an anarchist. I don't give a fuck who runs for the presidency, we'll still get the same shit.

I said "they". I was making a sweeping generalization, read my op.

I tend to think women are better, but that's just the chilvarous reactionary in me.
Chivalry? Pfft- chivalry = paternalism. We just want to be recognised as people...

It is a bit odd though, at least if my limited knowledge of linguistics is correct.

Didn't people invent the words "woman" & "women" to differentiate between the genders in the first place? - I was under the impression everyone - regardless of sex - used to be called men.
Yeah, people have posted about that. I contend that the way feminists are changing the word is in reaction to current usages and circumstances, to arguing about etymology is useless. *shrugs*

I am a feminist (yes, I believe that I deserve to be treated equally and no, I do not hate men) and I use women/woman. It's pretty fucking stupid to change the word.

if women get to be called a Womyn can i be a He-man

just like the kiddie show :D

What about wombat? Is that taken?

Or womble?

Yeah, people have posted about that. I contend that the way feminists are changing the word is in reaction to current usages and circumstances, to arguing about etymology is useless. *shrugs*
It's amusing that people who so object to the English language being 'changed', don't bother to rail against the evil encroachment of pop culture vocabulary into every day speech, or the appropriation of foreign words (rather than inventing our own). So...is it only words that are introduced with purpose that they object to? If we can now have a word like 'santorum', why the hell not, 'womyn'?

the wombles of wimbledon common are we....

heh heh thay do live in a park :rolleyes:

It is a bit odd though, at least if my limited knowledge of linguistics is correct.

Didn't people invent the words "woman" & "women" to differentiate between the genders in the first place? - I was under the impression everyone - regardless of sex - used to be called men.

Sounds like what happened. For a long time I think that there was only one singular third person for people of either gender. In fact, Finnish still only has one (hän) that refers to both 'he' and 'she', making it difficult to know whether they're talking about a man or a woman when they talk. It does clear up the 'his/her/their' question, and it's interesting to note the Finns were the first to give women the right to vote.

I am a feminist (yes, I believe that I deserve to be treated equally and no, I do not hate men) and I use women/woman. It's pretty fucking stupid to change the word.
I too am a feminist and I use women/woman. I don't care if someone else wants to spell it womyn. I can still figure out what they are referring to, and it doesn't offend me in any way.

I know Preebs said not to argue etymology, but...

In ancient English (or should that be Anglish...) Man meant brain, so the species referred to as man just meant that we differenciated ourselves from other animals by the increased size of our brains. Wo-man was a later addition in order to take into account the natural differences in men and women (namely, women give birth, men don't). So the extension wo-man was taken from wombed-man, or life giving brain. It was because of this that women were reveared in ancient society and it wasn't until more modern times that wo-man become synonomous with wife-man.

Seriously though, the spelling is woman. Like it or lump it, it just is and as has been mentioned, guaranteeing equality of the sexes is more important than changing the spelling of the word.

Seriously though, the spelling woman. Like it or lump it, it just is and as has been mentioned, guaranteeing equality of the sexes is more important than chnaging the spelling of the word.
Why would anyone assume that these two actions are mutually exclusive? Does anyone really think that femenists are so going to tire themselves out championing the alternate spelling that they won't have time for anything else????:D

"Hmmm, I have to choose between getting people to spell it womyn, or guaranteeing equality between the sexes. Damn...I guess I'll go with the spelling. Equality will just have to wait."

I can understand that women may feel that they are being seen as less superior to men, but my god. Must we go so far as to change teh spelling of a word, just to make ourselves stand out? I think not.:D

Why would anyone assume that these two actions are mutually exclusive? Does anyone really think that femenists are so going to tire themselves out championing the alternate spelling that they won't have time for anything else????:D
Not at all, but you've got to admit, it's a rather useless change.

Why would anyone assume that these two actions are mutually exclusive? Does anyone really think that femenists are so going to tire themselves out championing the alternate spelling that they won't have time for anything else????:D


if we put up enough of a fight for long enough then answer is yes its a war of attrition you see :mp5:

Not at all, but you've got to admit, it's a rather useless change.

Haven't the brits adopted the -ise ending in preference to the more correct -ize from to make themselves feel more 'continental' and less 'american' though?

I can understand that women may feel that they are being seen as less superior to men, but my god. Must we go so far as to change teh spelling of a word, just to make ourselves stand out? I think not.:D
Why not? We change language all the time. We no longer automatically use words like fireman, policeman or stewardess, but instead choose to use more inclusive terms...that may seem like PC bullshit to some, but isn't it better to say firefighter, police officer and flight attendant rather than, "female fireman, female police officer, male stewardess" so that people don't keep assuming your gender when your job title is brought up?

Seriously though, the spelling is woman. Like it or lump it, it just is and as has been mentioned, guaranteeing equality of the sexes is more important than changing the spelling of the word.
We fully recognise that there are more larger, broader issues at stake, and that changing the way language is used is in fact a means to an end rather than the end itself. So in that way, by changing people's consciousness, we hope to bring about broader change. Also, we always end up talking about this because, as Sin said, people just can't get over it. I think they want to find any reason to put feminism and feminists down, and this is an obvious one.

Not at all, but you've got to admit, it's a rather useless change.
It's important to some. And it's generally used in very specific settings anyway...a kind of rebellion by some, or a regular thing for others. I haven't really seen anyone who wants to go through all our literature and revise it to reflect the new spelling. If someone wants to spell it womyn, so bloody what? I'm not about to get worked up about it. Damn...especially not when there are more important things to get worked up about. Like sex and cheesecake!

if we put up enough of a fight for long enough then answer is yes its a war of attrition you see :mp5:
I KNEW IT! The whole 'womyn' issue....in fact the whole 'femenism=man-hating' argument is devised by anti-femenists who want to sap our strength! It shant work!

Haven't the brits adopted the -ise ending in preference to the more correct -ize from to make themselves feel more 'continental' and less 'american' though?
Adopted? I simply thought that was how they spelled things to begin with. I'm a sticker for the -ise ending...you'll notice I rarely, if ever use -ize. Generally, as long as you stick with your spelling rule, you're fine (colour instead of color, neighbour instead of neighbor and realise instead of realize). It's when you go all wonky and switch it up that your profs tend to want to beat you with bamboo.

I KNEW IT! The whole 'womyn' issue....in fact the whole 'femenism=man-hating' argument is devised by anti-femenists who want to sap our strength! It shant work!

to quote morpheus "welcome to the real world"

actualy i dont agree i just felt someone had to stand defend the sexists with all the bashing going on :D

Why not? We change language all the time. We no longer automatically use words like fireman, policeman or stewardess, but instead choose to use more inclusive terms...that may seem like PC bullshit to some, but isn't it better to say firefighter, police officer and flight attendant rather than, "female fireman, female police officer, male stewardess" so that people don't keep assuming your gender when your job title is brought up?

Well I think a male stewardess is a steward.

But you raise an interesting point, I've noticed that the trend has not been so much to drive for inclusive terms, per se, but rather elminate the letter combination M-A-N, usually. For example chairman has become chairperson, however, no-one has suggested - that I know of - of eliminating actress, executrix, and so forth. (And of course woman -> womyn)

I wonder if inclusiveness is really the goal?

Haven't the brits adopted the -ise ending in preference to the more correct -ize from to make themselves feel more 'continental' and less 'american' though?
Could be argued that it's the other way around, with the Americans changing it to -ize instead of the correct -ise, the language is English afterall. However, neither would be completely correct as during the period of the colonies, and the subsequent split with America, single spelling was not in common use.

Adopted? I simply thought that was how they spelled things to begin with. I'm a sticker for the -ise ending...you'll notice I rarely, if ever use -ize. Generally, as long as you stick with your spelling rule, you're fine (colour instead of color, neighbour instead of neighbor and realise instead of realize). It's when you go all wonky and switch it up that your profs tend to want to beat you with bamboo.

No. The ize form is older, and according to the oxford style manual, more correct (in most cases). -ise is a continentalism I presume.

I'll see if I can find a link.

Well I think a male stewardess is a steward.

But you raise an interesting point, I've noticed that the trend has not been so much to drive for inclusive terms, per se, but rather elminate the letter combination M-A-N, usually. For example chairman has become chairperson, however, no-one has suggested - that I know of - of eliminating actress, executrix, and so forth. (And of course woman -> womyn)

I wonder if inclusiveness is really the goal?
Not true. In Australia it has become commonplace for people to say "actor" regardless of the gender of the person. And executrix? Never heard that word before in my life. We'd just say executor... And all the words you listed have a male and female alternative, so nobody is really excluded, although the male form is often used as a default- the assumption of maleness.

Here's a link that 'splains the -ise v. -ize thing.

linkie (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm)

Woman.

Even if it is only a radical section of feminism, or a group loosely associated with feminism, these kinds of issues cast a bad light on the feminist movement as a whole. People readily generalize an instance's views into a group's views. (Someone brought that up in another poll on a possible War with Islam)

Consider, for example, that I allow students and younger children to call me by my first name instead of saying "Mister" in front of it. If they show respect, they deserve that privilege; if they don't, then forcing them to say "Mister" will not make them respect me.

Semantics and spelling have little (if not counterproductive) effect on the issue of equality and respect; using a slur does not necessarily imply inequality and disrespect, nor does politically-correct language imply equality and respect.

however, no-one has suggested - that I know of - of eliminating actress, executrix, and so forth. (And of course woman -> womyn)

I wonder if inclusiveness is really the goal?
I think actress hasn't been changed simply because modern society is so taken with it 'stars', and gender really matters. If you are told you're going to get a glimpse of the naughty bits of an actor, your reaction may be different than if you were to be told the same about an actress. Some words are already neutral...doctor, for example. But nurse is still a rather 'feminine' word...it's changing, and people don't automatically assume gender, but the word itself doesn't need to be changed, just the attitude surrounding certain professions. You don't have words being introduced like 'weldress' ...and executrix? That's the first time I've ever seen that word! I can think of many, many examples of words that were very gender-biased that have been changed to be gender neutral...but for examples of words that have continued being gender-specific, actor and actress are about all I can come up with. So yes, I think inclusiveness IS the goal.

Woman.

Even if it is only a radical section of feminism, or a group loosely associated with feminism, these kinds of issues cast a bad light on the feminist movement as a whole.
Only if you
a) automatically assume that anything radical is bad.
and
b) don't understand the issue at all.

:)

i'll have roast beef on toasted rye, with pickles, mayo, Gulden's Mustard(tm), banana peppers and cut into 4 pieces diagonally.
WTF!!! YOU DONT TALK TO A LADIE LIKE THT!!!

Here's a link that 'splains the -ise v. -ize thing.

linkie (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm)
Well, I've been spelling with -ise my whole life...I'm not about to switch:) I don't really care if it's British or USian or some other third thing.

WTF!!! YOU DONT TALK TO A LADIE LIKE THT!!!

do so!!!!!!111!1

if she a waitress :D

I prefer to call them penis lackers. Much more official and less offending.

Woman.

Even if it is only a radical section of feminism, or a group loosely associated with feminism, these kinds of issues cast a bad light on the feminist movement as a whole. People readily generalize an instance's views into a group's views. (Someone brought that up in another poll on a possible War with Islam)Like that's not going to happen anyway. Blaming issues like the spelling of 'womyn' for the 'bad rep' feminism has is erroneous. That bad rep is created in the minds of those who either deliberately misinterpret the goals of feminism, or outright oppose those goals. Feminists could be squeaky clean, never raise their voices, never challenge...and people would still be threatened by them. But wait...if they did all those things, they wouldn't be very effective, now would they? If a bad rep comes with getting results, I think we're willing to weather it.

Not true. In Australia it has become commonplace for people to say "actor" regardless of the gender of the person. And executrix? Never heard that word before in my life. We'd just say executor... And all the words you listed have a male and female alternative, so nobody is really excluded, although the male form is often used as a default- the assumption of maleness.

Interesting about that in australia. That hasn't been the case here - in general. Executrix is a female executor. It's still widely used. (Though prosecutrix seems to have fallen out of fashion. Maybe with the decline in private prosecutions, and the assumption that the state is always male perhaps).

For you point about inclusiveness, I dissagree, insofar as words having a male and female alternative. Chairman always had Chairwoman, as did policman/policewoman. If inclusiveness is really the goal, then why are they not acceptable?

I prefer to call them penis lackers. Much more official and less offending.
Only if you become uterus-challenged.

Well, I've been spelling with -ise my whole life...I'm not about to switch:) I don't really care if it's British or USian or some other third thing.
I'm going to strike preemptively here. I know someone is gonig to use this as a reason to not use the word womyn. So,I'll just say that that's fine, radfems aren't trying to make everyone use the word, but the people who do use it want you to think about gender issues.

There. *phew, crisis averted*

Only if you become uterus-challenged.

Add Meatbag Chests and we have a deal.

For you point about inclusiveness, I dissagree, insofar as words having a male and female alternative. Chairman always had Chairwoman, as did policman/policewoman. If inclusiveness is really the goal, then why are they not acceptable?
Because gender shouldn't matter. Why should it matter that your chairperson is male or female? Why shout it out to the world? Why should the default be male anyway? Why NOT a word that simply tells you what the person does, and leave their genitalia out of it? Having two different words based on your reproductive organs is divisive, not inclusive.

I prefer to call them penis lackers. Much more official and less offending.

what do u call shemales :confused:

the wombles of wimbledon common are we....

heh heh thay do live in a park :rolleyes:

LOL! I've heard that song before, though I'm not sure where. So catchy.

Personally, I wouldn't mind being called wombat, unless it were a reference to excessive body hair :p

Seriously though, the spelling woman. Like it or lump it, it just is and as has been mentioned, guaranteeing equality of the sexes is more important than changing the spelling of the word.

Well put! It's a part of the English language, and has been for a long time.


It's amusing that people who so object to the English language being 'changed', don't bother to rail against the evil encroachment of pop culture vocabulary into every day speech, or the appropriation of foreign words (rather than inventing our own). So...is it only words that are introduced with purpose that they object to? If we can now have a word like 'santorum', why the hell not, 'womyn'?

I have nothing against new vocabulary words; although some terms annoy me, most are just fads that will be forgotten in a couple decades. And as for introducing foreign words into our vocabulary, that's essentially what the English language is! We're always borrowing words from other languages until we have a hard time telling which ones are 'ours' and which aren't.
Oh dear, this discussion is gravitating more towards etymology than feminism. Well, both subjects are interesting.
I think true feminism is about equality of the genders, and it's only a few radical people who give them a bad name.

I'm going to strike preemptively here. I know someone is gonig to use this as a reason to not use the word womyn. So,I'll just say that that's fine, radfems aren't trying to make everyone use the word, but the people who do use it want you to think about gender issues.

There. *phew, crisis averted*
I already tried that...but people want to believe the worst about the issue. Just let them. It makes them feel better.

For you point about inclusiveness, I dissagree, insofar as words having a male and female alternative. Chairman always had Chairwoman, as did policman/policewoman. If inclusiveness is really the goal, then why are they not acceptable?
I think there are a few reasons why a chairperson is preferable to a chairman/woman. Firstly, value judgements will be passed (by some people) on the quality of the person and their work based on gender, so by removing that identifier you're making that position more gender neutral. Also, if the ender of a chairperson (or anyone else obviously, this is jsut an example) is not known, they have always been referred to as the chairman. There's that sssumption of maleness that I was talking about. I think using a wholly gender neutral term avoids that.

what do u call shemales :confused:

Penis Reformers?

It's a very gray area.

Penis Reformers?

It's a very gray area.

i like "chiks with dicks" but if u say it in public you get stared at :eek:

thread hi-jacking in progress pls change the subject please.....

i like "chiks with dicks" but if u say it in public you get stared at :eek:

I just address a cross gendered person by the gender they're attempting to look like. Less conflict, confusion, and guilt.

cross gendered how pc but what if he/she/it doesnt want to be there dominant sex ?

alot of women like to wear mens clothes anyway so how are u suposed to tell?

Only if you
a) automatically assume that anything radical is bad.
and
b) don't understand the issue at all.

:)

Unfortunately, most people choose irrationality. Life is simpler when one avoids weighing evidence, verifying premises, making judgments, and forming arguments. Generalizing a small group into a large one is much easier than thinking, especially if all the information at one's disposal is only that on the six o'clock news or in the morning paper.

The resistance to change, especially radical change, is also understandable: if it works well enough, why should anything change?

Does this mean radical change is wrong? No. I am a radical myself (of a peculiar breed, too!). But the resistance to change is understandable; after all, we monkey folk have survived for millenia fearing what is different.

As for me, I admit I fail to understand these issues in their entirety. I can't say I play any role in this gender battle. I'm just self-interested: I don't care about who someone is as long as that someone can perform competently. If a woman, or someone who is normally inherently considered inferior, untouchable, or repressed, can do the job better than the 'traditional' candidate, then I am hurting myself by hiring someone less able.

Not many people think of it that way, though.

cross gendered how pc but what if he/she/it doesnt want to be there dominant sex ?

I actually just prefer saying cross gendered but if they don't want to be called what they look like then they aren't trying hard enough to escape their previous gender and I would think that after getting such a surgery one would go to extra lengths to secure their new identity. But whatever.

Back on Subject: Woman looks better than Womyn, I'd prefer just lady or femal...err femyle.

I think there are a few reasons why a chairperson is preferable to a chairman/woman. Firstly, value judgements will be passed (by some people) on the quality of the person and their work based on gender, so by removing that identifier you're making that position more gender neutral. Also, if the ender of a chairperson (or anyone else obviously, this is jsut an example) is not known, they have always been referred to as the chairman. There's that sssumption of maleness that I was talking about. I think using a wholly gender neutral term avoids that.

I don't know about other people but hearing words that now end in "person" just makes me think of the difference more. And if you don't like the default, take your troubles up with the Spanish speaking countries, a group of 1 male and five females is still refered to in a plural male form, learn spanish and start trying to "fix" that language. What has the assumption of maleness done?

Woman looks better than Womyn, I'd prefer just lady or femal...err femyle.

u mean shething right

"Woman or Womyn?"

Huh? WTF, over?? :confused:

"Woman or Womyn?"

Huh? WTF, over?? :confused:
If you had bothered to read the thread...;)

If you had bothered to read the thread...;)
[ trout-slap ] :p

cross gendered how pc but what if he/she/it doesnt want to be there dominant sex ?
As a general rule, just ask. Then refer to them as whatever they reply. If they say as female then refer to them as female, if they say as male then refer to them as male. It's polite, making sure you get it right, and what harm can asking do?

annoy them?

[ trout-slap ] :p
:D

There's that sssumption of maleness that I was talking about. I think using a wholly gender neutral term avoids that.

Which goes back to my point, that it's really about removing M-A-N, and not creating a gender neutral language per se.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

annoy them?
Nope. Very unlikely.

Like that's not going to happen anyway. Blaming issues like the spelling of 'womyn' for the 'bad rep' feminism has is erroneous. That bad rep is created in the minds of those who either deliberately misinterpret the goals of feminism, or outright oppose those goals.

I'm a tad bit confused here, Sinuhue: are you saying that this spelling of 'womyn' is something that should be done? Or are you simply stating that you're going to get a bad reputation no matter what you do?

If the latter, I agree :) and sympathize; I've already gotten a bad reputation because of what I stand for.

If the former, I don't think a spelling change will help you. I said earlier that, despite the fact that certain words are all but illegal, there are still intolerant people around.

While feminism's opponents may be the origin of feminism's bad reputation, if factions of feminism champion something as petty as this spelling issue, it hinders feminism from getting the support it needs to facilitate the changes it wants. If normal people feel like their lives are going to change too much, then they will not align with feminism. People need to see what they seek to gain, what they have in common.

Feminists could be squeaky clean, never raise their voices, never challenge...and people would still be threatened by them.

Of course, that is true with any change and any idea. But that wasn't what I was saying you should do. :)

But wait...if they did all those things, they wouldn't be very effective, now would they? If a bad rep comes with getting results, I think we're willing to weather it.

Goals worth pursing might require costs like that, no arguments there. Ojectivists and libertarians weather criticism about Ayn Rand's personal life and being uncaring self-centered egomaniacs, and that does not deter them. Communists continue to believe in the face of the collapse of the USSR and Chinese human rights issues.

I guess what I am trying to say is: it is best not to incur a cost too high (get a bad reputation) over something relatively trivial. Better to be hated because the issues you champion further your cause, than hated because the issues you choose to champion are pointless.

Note that I am not saying feminism is pointless; I am saying that changing the spelling of woman to 'womyn' is pointless.

I use "Woman", because I make it a policy never to write a word I can't pronounce. And I've never heard "Womyn" spoken (unless it's pronounced identically to "Woman", in which case it's pretty useless beyond written slogans/posters in creating awareness, etc.), so I don't know how it's (officially) pronounced ... hence, "Woman".

*snip* take your troubles up with the Spanish speaking countries, a group of 1 male and five females is still refered to in a plural male form, learn spanish and start trying to "fix" that language. What has the assumption of maleness done?
A lot of languages, actually. Hebrew, for one.

And executrix? Never heard that word before in my life. We'd just say executor...

Oi.... I've never heard of Executrix OR executor.... (Except the pokemon exeggutor...)

I thought it was "executive".

Oi.... I've never heard of Executrix OR executor.... (Except the pokemon exeggutor...)

I thought it was "executive".
An executor (male)/executrix (female) is somebody who carries something out. Like the executor of a Will.

I like how thourout this thread people have incorrectly used 'gender' and 'sex' interchangebly as if they were synomomous.

being a boy, i'm probably ignorant, but what does the spelling of woman/womyn have to do with feminism?

I like how thourout this thread people have incorrectly used 'gender' and 'sex' interchangebly as if they were synomomous.

That is curious. Please elaborate; I was not aware there was a difference.

... what does the spelling of woman/womyn have to do with feminism?

This is an extremely worthwhile question. Someone correct me if I am wrong (because that is likely!), but the other spelling, 'womyn', is supposedly less sexist than the original, 'woman'. The idea championed by some is that the spelling should be changed in order to help correct the inequality between women and men.

That, as I understand it, is the issue as objectively as I can state it. As for what it has to do with feminism... well, you'd have to ask them. I don't know enough to comment about it. :)

I didn't have a clue there was another way to spell it until the other day.

Suffice to say, I really don't care. Dwelling on the difference is probably just more likely to give credence to inequality.

who the hell spells womyn?

Google Fight (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=woman&word2=womyn)-
woman-541M
womyn-1.27M
(541:1.27...426:1)

I like how thourout this thread people have incorrectly used 'gender' and 'sex' interchangebly as if they were synomomous.
I don't believe I have, because I have largely mentioned linguistics. But you are correct in your irritation.

Gender is a linguistic category/case, "sex" is a genetic trait. Only words can have 'gender'.

Obviously, This misunderstanding comes from not taking enough Latin, French or German.

Womyn looks like the name of some ancient Celtic demon or something.

I think the only people that use "womyn" are feminazis that are so full of misandry that the mere thought of man anything causes them to break out in hives. These are people that overcome penis envy by behaving like total pricks.

And fuck women.

We're not responsible for the wound in your crotch. You owe us a rib.

/plagairism

its called phallus envy first of all, if your gonna quote freud do it well. owe us a rib? ahhh so your one of those religious types that think that everyone is equal but some are equaler? well you all disgust me, if Mcdonalds can protest having McJob put in t dictionary, we can protest woman being there too.

its called phallus envy first of all, if your gonna quote freud do it well. owe us a rib? ahhh so your one of those religious types that think that everyone is equal but some are equaler? well you all disgust me, if Mcdonalds can protest having McJob put in t dictionary, we can protest woman being there too.

I rest my case.

Is "womyn" plural, singular, or interchangable? Are there similar variants?
The idea behind the change to womyn from women is that it makes them "independent" from men. With "men" as the base word it makes man as the standard; but "women" is made an alteration of men. So essentially, in the minds of some feminists, men are considered the standard of all things wheras women are mesured and thought of in how they differ from men; women are viewed as the "outsider." The change in name is supposed to seperate themselves and make them think of themselves as their own standards; this will lead to increased self-images and beliefs of empowerment. To me this seems like an example of people believing that if they feel better about themselves it will actually mean something in relation to social conditions.

I am a woman and I think "womyn" is silly as hell.

so what do you get out of keeping it the same? is that one differant letter too hard to remember? if so just change your spell check.
and womyn is interchangeable

I'll be happy to call that pretentious, condescending and self-centered female humynoid type a womyn just as soon as they quit calling those damned things in the streets "manhole" covers.

George Carlin is going to have a field day with this.........

Is "womyn" plural, singular, or interchangable? Are there similar variants?
The idea behind the change to womyn from women is that it makes them "independent" from men. With "men" as the base word it makes man as the standard; but "women" is made an alteration of men. So essentially, in the minds of some feminists, men are considered the standard of all things wheras women are mesured and thought of in how they differ from men; women are viewed as the "outsider." The change in name is supposed to seperate themselves and make them think of themselves as their own standards; this will lead to increased self-images and beliefs of empowerment. To me this seems like an example of people believing that if they feel better about themselves it will actually mean something in relation to social conditions.

I believe that the womyn is the plural, and womon is the singular. Also, it's not female, but femal, herstory for history, and humyn.

It's an attempt to better huwomynty.

(I suppose by rights Herpes should become Hispes too).

"Bitch fix me a sandwich" works too:-p

I believe that the womyn is the plural, and womon is the singular. Also, it's not female, but femal, herstory for history, and humyn.

It's an attempt to better huwomynty.

(I suppose by rights Herpes should become Hispes too).

im guessing your chrystian white male, probably american and voted for either dumb or dumber...
So you take a serious issue, exagerate in an attempt to make it sound far fetched. So jealous of a womyn's movement... a little bit insecure or just plain dumb

Forgive me for being off-topic, but after reading all these posts, I am reminded of Eric Idle's (MAY be the wrong cast member, think it's right though) Rant on how he wants to have babies. "It's my right as a man!" "Where will the fetus gestate? In a box?!"

Womyn
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Womyn is the best-known one of a number of alternate spellings which some feminists promote as a way to degender the English word women and as female empowerment. Other variants include wimmin (plural), wom!n, womban and womon (singular), while femal (from female) and humyn (human) apply the principle elsewhere. All are pronounced the same as the conventional terms.

Go Wikipedia it actually had it in there. Who knew :D theres more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn

point if it sounds the same what is the point


How about 'moron'?

The ones who object to the word men in women.
Oh I never noticed that...:rolleyes:

I tend to think women are better, but that's just the chilvarous reactionary in me.

Ahhhhh - a TRAITOR :D

It's amusing that people who so object to the English language being 'changed', don't bother to rail against the evil encroachment of pop culture vocabulary into every day speech, or the appropriation of foreign words (rather than inventing our own). So...is it only words that are introduced with purpose that they object to? If we can now have a word like 'santorum', why the hell not, 'womyn'?

Because it's stupid.

Womyn? Well, I have heard this, yes... and while I do understand the concern raised by proponents of the odd spelling, personally, I prefer to substitute person if there is any debate.

Don't make me get out my bible and read genesis...

I think the only people that use "womyn" are feminazis that are so full of misandry that the mere thought of man anything causes them to break out in hives. These are people that overcome penis envy by behaving like total pricks.
Good morning to you too.


Wanker.

Good morning to you too.


Wanker.
Don't mind him. He's the one who asserted that women are to blame for being raped.

Don't mind him. He's the one who asserted that women are to blame for being raped.
Oh, one of those. So my assessment was correct.

Even worse than "womyn" is complaining about the word "manage" - it is derived from the latin "manus" (meaning "hand"), it has nothing to do with men!

Instead of trying to fuck up the English language, they should just put in the extra effort and make their own language.

Shebeast.

Wait that contains "he"...so does her. Female. Human. Sweet jesus, we're going to have to change a lot to satisfy the shebeast.

polish word for it.