NationStates Jolt Archive

"A tendency of this administration -- from the top all the way to the bottom -- is to withhold information ... to refuse to be forthcoming about information that is of significance and relevance to the jobs that all of you do, and the interests of the American people," (NY Sen. Hillary)Clinton said.

Hmm let me see...Whitewater (stonewall, files magically appearing), Vince Foster (removing files, delay, stonewall) , Monica Lewinski( perjury, stonewalling,suborning perjury, deny deny deny), FBI Files (delay -deny)

Pot, meet Kettle

"A tendency of this administration -- from the top all the way to the bottom -- is to withhold information ... to refuse to be forthcoming about information that is of significance and relevance to the jobs that all of you do, and the interests of the American people," (NY Sen. Hillary)Clinton said.

Hmm let me see...Whitewater (stonewall, files magically appearing), Vince Foster (removing files, delay, stonewall) , Monica Lewinski( perjury, stonewalling,suborning perjury, deny deny deny), FBI Files (delay -deny)

Pot, meet Kettle
Clinton lied about a blowjob and some shady personal financial deals. Bush lied to get us into an unnecessary war. Personally I'd rather have Slick Willie in charge.

what a pretentious twat. she does have nerve.

Clinton lied about a blowjob and some shady personal financial deals. Bush lied to get us into an unnecessary war. Personally I'd rather have Slick Willie in charge.

Oh, would those be the same "lies" that Clinton himself was using in 1998? The intelligence cited by the UN and key Republican and Democrat members of Congress? When he was trying to distract the public from his commiting perjury to a Federal Grand Jury?

Nice try, thanks for playing.

Clinton lied about a blowjob and some shady personal financial deals. Bush lied to get us into an unnecessary war. Personally I'd rather have Slick Willie in charge.

Indeed. The Clintons have some shady personal financial deals behind them... the current regime has some shady public financial deals behind it...

Clinton lied about whether he spilled his seed on a friend's dress...., the current regime lied about why more than two thousand of our sons have had to spill their lifeblood on enemy sands.

It makes a sad statement about American politics that the former is considered a more valid platform for impeachment than the latter.

Actually, I"d say withholding info and lying is pretty much the defining feature of any administration.

Actually, I"d say withholding info and lying is pretty much the defining feature of any administration.I alway thought it was a job skill required of all politicians.

Oh, would those be the same "lies" that Clinton himself was using in 1998? The intelligence cited by the UN and key Republican and Democrat members of Congress? When he was trying to distract the public from his commiting perjury to a Federal Grand Jury?

Nice try, thanks for playing.
Trying to distract the public? Yeah, nice. That line was used against him when he used cruise missiles to attack Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan too. The Clinton admin. warned the incoming Bush admin. that Al Qaeda would be their biggest threat, but Bush and co. decided to back burner it until 9/11 happened.

Oh, I also never heard about Clinton lying about Saddam trying to buy African Yellowcake and then outing an active CIA operative to punish her husband who revealed the lie.

Oh, would those be the same "lies" that Clinton himself was using in 1998? The intelligence cited by the UN and key Republican and Democrat members of Congress? When he was trying to distract the public from his commiting perjury to a Federal Grand Jury?

Nice try, thanks for playing.
Perjury about getting a blowjob? Adultery is legal, if frowned upon. Immaterial. Oral sex is probably only illegal in a handful of states.

Actually, I"d say withholding info and lying is pretty much the defining feature of any administration.

Like the White House silence on the "Rambo Cheney" incident recently.

Get used to seeing democrats in power. The mid term elections will swing hard to the Dems and if anyone except Hillary Clinton or Al Sharpton wins the Dem. Primaries in 2008 the Republicans are going to be out of the white house for eight years at least.

Trying to distract the public? Yeah, nice. That line was used against him when he used cruise missiles to attack Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan too. The Clinton admin. warned the incoming Bush admin. that Al Qaeda would be their biggest threat, but Bush and co. decided to back burner it until 9/11 happened.

Oh, I also never heard about Clinton lying about Saddam trying to buy African Yellowcake and then outing an active CIA operative to punish her husband who revealed the lie.

So if Bin Laden and Al Qaeda was such a BIG threat during Clinton's times, then why didnt he blow the hell out of him when they had the chance in 2000? I mean they had him on the screen walking in the mountians with his friends and this was all being observed from a drone flying over the mountains IN FULL VIEW in 2000!!! So why the hell didnt he launch a strike right there and then, when it was confirmed that was him? I saw the footage. Not too many 6 ft tall afghanies out there.

Perjury about getting a blowjob? Adultery is legal, if frowned upon. Immaterial. Oral sex is probably only illegal in a handful of states.

No, perjury is lying under oath to a federal grand jury during an investigation. Yes It is a federal crime to lie to a federal grand jury. Not to mention lying to an entire nation and getting others to lie for him. Someone needs to go and read the laws pertaining to such incidents. As you Democrates say, no President os above the law, and that includes Clinton.

So if Bin Laden and Al Qaeda was such a BIG threat during Clinton's times, then why didnt he blow the hell out of him when they had the chance in 2000? I mean they had him on the screen walking in the mountians with his friends and this was all being observed from a drone flying over the mountains IN FULL VIEW in 2000!!! So why the hell didnt he launch a strike right there and then, when it was confirmed that was him? I saw the footage. Not too many 6 ft tall afghanies out there.
Did they even have armed predator drones in 2000? Or did they only have the unarmed version? Was the predator that spotted Bin Laden an armed drone? It kinda makes a difference because if they had to hit him with cruise missiles, well it takes a while to spin up a tomahawk. Bin Laden would be gone by the time the missile hit.

Indeed. The Clintons have some shady personal financial deals behind them... the current regime has some shady public financial deals behind it...

Clinton lied about whether he spilled his seed on a friend's dress...., the current regime lied about why more than two thousand of our sons have had to spill their lifeblood on enemy sands.

It makes a sad statement about American politics that the former is considered a more valid platform for impeachment than the latter.

The intelligence fron Britain, Russia, and the US all agreed on the presence of WMD's in Iraq. The UN weapons inspectors agreed, before they were booted by Saddam, that the weapons were there. It is NOT, therefore, lying to report what the best intelligence in the world has to say on the subject.

And, to answer the argument before it comes up... the intelligence was wrong. That still doesn't make it lying. It is easy, after the fact, to say that Bush was wrong, therefore he lied. The congress saw the same intelligence and voted for the war. The message was the same when Clinton was in office - Saddam is the most serious threat to US security. It is suspiciously convenient that when it suits the Democrats politics to do so, they forget what they said themselves a few short years ago.

As to Clinton's lying... he knew at the time that:

(a) He was under oath,
(b) He was purposfully misleading, if not lying, to the grand jury.

the same cannot be said about Bush with any certainty. You realize that Clinton was disbarred for his actions on the witness stand. The subject of the lying is irrelevant in this case. He lied under oath. He was the President. He purposefully broke the law. You cannot say the same about Bush if you look at the course of events objectively.

And as to why the intelligence was inaccurate... Clinton and the Democrats slashed military and intelligence spending during his tenure. Is it really a surprise to find out after that that our intelligence was hurt because of Clinton?

Oh, it was an unarmed drone.

The video, taken from an unarmed and unmanned surveillance aircraft over Tarnak Farm in Afghanistan in the fall of 2000, shows a tall man dressed in a white robe.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/03/17/predator.video/

And it's still a fact that Clinton agressively hunted Bin Laden while Bush didn't seem to give a shit until 3000 of our people were killed in one day.

The intelligence fron Britain, Russia, and the US all agreed on the presence of WMD's in Iraq. The UN weapons inspectors agreed, before they were booted by Saddam, that the weapons were there. It is NOT, therefore, lying to report what the best intelligence in the world has to say on the subject.

And, to answer the argument before it comes up... the intelligence was wrong. That still doesn't make it lying. It is easy, after the fact, to say that Bush was wrong, therefore he lied. The congress saw the same intelligence and voted for the war. The message was the same when Clinton was in office - Saddam is the most serious threat to US security. It is suspiciously convenient that when it suits the Democrats politics to do so, they forget what they said themselves a few short years ago.

As to Clinton's lying... he knew at the time that:

(a) He was under oath,
(b) He was purposfully misleading, if not lying, to the grand jury.

the same cannot be said about Bush with any certainty. You realize that Clinton was disbarred for his actions on the witness stand. The subject of the lying is irrelevant in this case. He lied under oath. He was the President. He purposefully broke the law. You cannot say the same about Bush if you look at the course of events objectively.

And as to why the intelligence was inaccurate... Clinton and the Democrats slashed military and intelligence spending during his tenure. Is it really a surprise to find out after that that our intelligence was hurt because of Clinton?
Aren't you conveniently ignoring the Administration's lie about African Yellowcake?

Did they even have armed predator drones in 2000? Or did they only have the unarmed version? Was the predator that spotted Bin Laden an armed drone? It kinda makes a difference because if they had to hit him with cruise missiles, well it takes a while to spin up a tomahawk. Bin Laden would be gone by the time the missile hit.

Checking on the net, they were first used in Afghanstan in 2002.

AFAIK, at the time the statement was made, our best evidence was that it had occurred. That intelligence was obtained from the British intelligence service, which later reported it was mistaken. BTW the official UK report claims he tried and failed to purchase the materials - certainly a worrisome development. It supports the administration's assertion that Saddam was interested in developing nuclear weapons.

Butler Report
While some officials in the CIA were skeptical of the Niger documents, President Bush relied mainly on intelligence from Britain for his State of the Union message and used the Niger documents for confirmation. Britain had multiple sources for the intelligence that Iraq sought uranium from both Niger and the Republic of Congo. Here are some conclusions from the Butler Report (which was very critical of other aspects of intelligence findings on WMD in Iraq) found on pages 122-125: [27]

Conclusion 494. There was further and separate intelligence that in 1999 the Iraqi regime had also made inquiries about the purchase of uranium ore in the Democratic Republic of Congo. In this case, there was some evidence that by 2002 an agreement for a sale had been reached.

Conclusion 499. We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government’s dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" was well-founded.

Conclusion 503. From our examination of the intelligence and other material on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa, we have concluded that:

a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.
b. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.
c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British Government did not claim this.
d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.
Although sources other than the Niger documents are mentioned, no evidence of this is advanced.

http://www.butlerreview.org.uk/report/

This thread only strengthens my opinion that, in America, liberals side with causes, conservatives side with the Republican Party.

This thread only strengthens my opinion that, in America, liberals side with causes, conservatives side with the Republican Party.

No, conservatives side with personal responsibility and liberals side with government dependance.

No, conservatives side with personal responsibility and liberals side with government dependance.
Bullshit. Clinton passed welfare reform that limits how long one can collect benefits. Bush used no-bid contracts to reward Haliburton and other companies the people in his administration had links to. In essence making those company's profits dependent on government.

Aren't you conveniently ignoring the Administration's lie about African Yellowcake?


This was not a lie, it came from British intelligence and they still stand by it.

Bullshit. Clinton passed welfare reform that limits how long one can collect benefits. Bush used no-bid contracts to reward Haliburton and other companies the people in his administration had links to. In essence making those company's profits dependent on government.

Clinton had to be dragged kicking and screaming to sign Welfare Reform. He was promising his liberal buddies that we would "fix that" after the '96 elections

Halliburton is one of two companies in the world that caould do the infrastructure work that was "no bid". The other is French. Figure it out.

This was not a lie, it came from British intelligence and they still stand by it.
Meanwhile our own intelligence sources say it was bullshit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake_Forgery

Saying it isn't a lie because one source backs it up DESPITE ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE is like saying the tobacco companies weren't lying when they said that nicotene wasn't addictive.

Clinton had to be dragged kicking and screaming to sign Welfare Reform. He was promising his liberal buddies that we would "fix that" after the '96 elections

Halliburton is one of two companies in the world that caould do the infrastructure work that was "no bid". The other is French. Figure it out.
FBI agents this week sought permission to interview Bunnatine Greenhouse, the Army Corps of Engineers' chief contracting officer who went public last weekend with allegations that her agency unfairly awarded KBR, a Halliburton subsidiary, no-bid contracts worth billions of dollars for work in Iraq, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041029/news_1n29halli.html

If the Haliburton no-bid contracts were totally above board why are there whistleblowers and an FBI investigation?

Gee, did Clinton "fix" it? If Clinton really didn't want to pass welfare reform why didn't he veto it?

(NY Sen. Hillary)Clinton said.

Okie dokie.

Hmm let me see...Whitewater (stonewall, files magically appearing), Vince Foster (removing files, delay, stonewall) , Monica Lewinski( perjury, stonewalling,suborning perjury, deny deny deny), FBI Files (delay -deny)

That's great ... except these things didn't go on during the Hillary administration, they went on during Bill's. At least blame the right Clinton. :rolleyes: Next you'll be pulling Chelsea into it all.

Indeed. The Clintons have some shady personal financial deals behind them... the current regime has some shady public financial deals behind it...

Clinton lied about whether he spilled his seed on a friend's dress...., the current regime lied about why more than two thousand of our sons have had to spill their lifeblood on enemy sands.

It makes a sad statement about American politics that the former is considered a more valid platform for impeachment than the latter.

Im just interested to know what proof currently exists that difinitvily shows bush knowingly misled the american public about the cuases for war. Im almost positive, if such evidence existed, we'd see inditements by now.. yet none.

However, we do know for sURE that Clinton purged himself infront of a Grand Jury. If Bush knowingly LIED, and there was evidence to support it, of course this would take presidence over the ladder, however, absent that proof... I think clintons blatent disrespect of the judical system trumps any conspiracy theories.

This thread only strengthens my opinion that, in America, liberals side with causes, conservatives side with the Republican Party.

which does seem to make the latter into a much more effective political party

Im just interested to know what proof currently exists that difinitvily shows bush knowingly misled the american public about the cuases for war. Im almost positive, if such evidence existed, we'd see inditements by now.. yet none.

However, we do know for sURE that Clinton purged himself infront of a Grand Jury. If Bush knowingly LIED, and there was evidence to support it, of course this would take presidence over the ladder, however, absent that proof... I think clintons blatent disrespect of the judical system trumps any conspiracy theories.
I think Bush's complete incompetence trumps any lies about a blowjob.


Let's face it, Clinton wouldn't have to lie if the Republican controlled congress didn't conduct a full scale investigation with an independent council (who wasn't so independent considering he was a member of the federalist society) about a simple blowjob. I'm more offended by the Republican party's abuse of power in turning oral sex into grounds for impeachment than I am by Clinton lying to keep his family's dirty laundry hidden.

However, we do know for sURE that Clinton purged himself infront of a Grand Jury.

*snicker*

Okie dokie.



That's great ... except these things didn't go on during the Hillary administration, they went on during Bill's. At least blame the right Clinton. :rolleyes: Next you'll be pulling Chelsea into it all.

Then perhaps you'd like to talk about Hiliary's OWN campeign finance scandle where she just "forgot" to claim hundres of thousands in donations to her senatorial race.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/hc-fecfine.shtml

"A tendency of this administration -- from the top all the way to the bottom -- is to withhold information ... to refuse to be forthcoming about information that is of significance and relevance to the jobs that all of you do, and the interests of the American people," (NY Sen. Hillary)Clinton said.

Hmm let me see...Whitewater (stonewall, files magically appearing), Vince Foster (removing files, delay, stonewall) , Monica Lewinski( perjury, stonewalling,suborning perjury, deny deny deny), FBI Files (delay -deny)

Pot, meet Kettle

Don't forget Chinagate.

Let's face it, Clinton wouldn't have to lie if the Republican controlled congress didn't conduct a full scale investigation with an independent council (who wasn't so independent considering he was a member of the federalist society) about a simple blowjob. I'm more offended by the Republican party's abuse of power in turning oral sex into grounds for impeachment than I am by Clinton lying to keep his family's dirty laundry hidden.

technically the investigation wasn't about the blowjob. that just wound up being the only thing that they could find that he did wrong. but that led to a nice bit of legalistic dodging, because blowjobs were clearly immaterial to the whitewater investigation, and the particular blowjob in question was not clearly material to the paula jones investigation. perjury requires lying under oath about matters that are material to the case.

Flashback...CNN All Politics, Aug. 27, 1996

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Aug. 27) -- The same day Hillary Clinton was scheduled to speak at the Democratic National Convention, newly released documents suggest she was behind the 30-hour delay in releasing late White House counsel Vincent Foster's suicide note to authorities.

How the White House handled Foster's 1993 death, and the possibility that administration officials improperly removed documents from his office or impeded an official search of it, has been the subject of intense scrutiny by congressional Republicans and the media.

The newly released memo, written by White House lawyer Miriam Nemetz, quotes then-White House chief of staff Mack McLarty as saying Mrs. Clinton "was very upset and believed the matter required further thought and the president should not yet be told" about Foster's note.

According to the document, Mrs. Clinton "said they should have a coherent position and should have decided what to do before they told the president."

That contradicts sworn testimony to the Senate Whitewater Committee from Clinton staffers that the first lady had no role whatsoever in the handling of Foster's note.

(borrowed from Michelle Malkin's Blog http://michellemalkin.com/)

Okie dokie.



That's great ... except these things didn't go on during the Hillary administration, they went on during Bill's. At least blame the right Clinton. :rolleyes: Next you'll be pulling Chelsea into it all.


Sen Clinton is the one on her High Horse about Clean, Upstanding Government. Should she not be called out on it?

I really wish some of the Clinton bashers would read Blinded by the Right by David Brock. He's a whistleblower on the right wing media conspiracy to smear the Clintons. If you knew what kind of dirty tricks were involved in the many Clinton "Scandals" you might be surprised.

http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/1400047285.asp

I really wish some of the Clinton bashers would read Blinded by the Right by David Brock. He's a whistleblower on the right wing media conspiracy to smear the Clintons. If you knew what kind of dirty tricks were involved in the many Clinton "Scandals" you might be surprised.

http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/1400047285.asp

because smere campeigns dont occur on both sides of the isle.
Take for instance the crap with Chenney... Democratic senatorial minority leader Reid reitering the effort by the administration to withold information... becuase the news came out the day after, instead of the day of... Because the "story" wasn't given the same if not more importance then the victim. Becuase the story didn't come to the media the moment it happend. I remember a time when the media had to go LOOKING for stories.:rolleyes:

And because this accident is in anyway pertinent to his position.

I think Bush's complete incompetence trumps any lies about a blowjob.
.
I disagree.. id rather see leadership go astray in good faith, then a politican knowingly mock an institution like the judical system..

I mean what are you really saying.. You'd rather see a national leader break the law then screw up in a national security issue (especially when that screw up weighs on the side of TOO MUCH caution for our security)

Personally id rather see him be wrong and us lose 2000 soldiers (as sad as it is) then be right, do nothing and us take another terrorist attack costing 3000 civilian lives (or worse).

I disagree.. id rather see leadership go astray in good faith, then a politican knowingly mock an institution like the judical system..

I mean what are you really saying.. You'd rather see a national leader break the law then screw up in a national security issue (especially when that screw up weighs on the side of TOO MUCH caution for our security)

Personally id rather see him be wrong and us lose 2000 soldiers (as sad as it is) then be right, do nothing and us take another terrorist attack costing 3000 civilian lives (or worse).
As if Iraq had anything to do with the war against Al Qaeda. Bush's incompetence has made stopping Al Qaeda more difficult.

As if Iraq had anything to do with the war against Al Qaeda. Bush's incompetence has made stopping Al Qaeda more difficult.

funny.. last i heard it was a war on terrorism... Al Qaeda just being apart of that term. Iraq DID have plenty to do with terrorism (though not nessearly Al Qaeda). There is a difference most people seem incapable of grasping

Sen Clinton is the one on her High Horse about Clean, Upstanding Government. Should she not be called out on it?

Not when the events mentioned have nothing to do with any time she has served as an elected public official.

May as well elect a drunken coke-head President ... oh wait ...

I disagree.. id rather see leadership go astray in good faith, then a politican knowingly mock an institution like the judical system..

I mean what are you really saying.. You'd rather see a national leader break the law then screw up in a national security issue (especially when that screw up weighs on the side of TOO MUCH caution for our security)

Personally id rather see him be wrong and us lose 2000 soldiers (as sad as it is) then be right, do nothing and us take another terrorist attack costing 3000 civilian lives (or worse).

Seems weird to me. I consider where a man ejaulates to be far less important than how many men he has condemned to death.

...right wing media conspiracy...


What color is the sky on the planet you live on?

Actually, I"d say withholding info and lying is pretty much the defining feature of any administration.

You're right. But this administation has turned it into an art form.

I remember reading about that even before September 11th. George W. Bush really went to extreme lengths when he took office and chose his cabinet to plug the usual 'leaks' that give information to the media. As a matter of fact, during his father's administration, that was his job; plugging information leaks.

Compared to Reagan's nearly artistic use of the media to his advantage, and Clinton's love of the spotlight(whether he deserved it or not), Bush is an extremely secretive president.

funny.. last i heard it was a war on terrorism... Al Qaeda just being apart of that term. Iraq DID have plenty to do with terrorism (though not nessearly Al Qaeda). There is a difference most people seem incapable of grasping
A war on terrorism is idiotic. You don't make war on a tactic, you choose an enemy. Another failure of this pathetic excuse for a leader you folks elected president.

LOL did you just hear the Hillary montage on the Rush Limbaugh Show?

i did not know about it.. i knew nothing about it ... i did not know...

Not when the events mentioned have nothing to do with any time she has served as an elected public official.

May as well elect a drunken coke-head President ... oh wait ...


Deflect the issues at hand with non-sequitors...check

Instantly degenerate into name calling ...check

Classic empty headed liberal debate techniques...Hooray!

What color is the sky on the planet you live on?
Read the book. There are plenty of right wing media outlets, Washinton Times (moonies own it. Kinda says something about the right-wing media), American Spectator, Fox news, et cetera. The book details how they and right wing think tanks like the heritage foundation defined the debate on Clinton even in the mainstream media.

A war on terrorism is idiotic. You don't make war on a tactic, you choose an enemy. Another failure of this pathetic excuse for a leader you folks elected president.

the enemy being any willing to employ this tactic >.>

Indeed. The Clintons have some shady personal financial deals behind them... the current regime has some shady public financial deals behind it...

Clinton lied about whether he spilled his seed on a friend's dress...., the current regime lied about why more than two thousand of our sons have had to spill their lifeblood on enemy sands.

It makes a sad statement about American politics that the former is considered a more valid platform for impeachment than the latter.

See, we have to have a distinction between wrong and lying. I don't put lying past any politician and particularly federal administrations, but this 'lie' was one that was BOUND to come to light before the next election. It was obvious that this would hurt a future campaign when there were better lies that would take decades to come to light if ever. I don't believe any responsible administration would choose such a short-term lie unless they actually believed it would turn out to be true. I do believe the evidence was faulty and they may have known the evidence was faulty, but I also believe that they truly thought they would turn out to be right.

Meanwhile, I was in the military under Clinton and plenty of yound men and women died under his watch under very shady dealings by the President. Let's not pretend that only a blowjob is on Clinton's list of wrongs. We haven't had a respectable president in a few decades.

the enemy being any willing to employ this tactic >.>
So when are we going to invade Sri Lanka to destroy the Tamil Tigers?

Read the book. There are plenty of right wing media outlets, Washinton Times (moonies own it. Kinda says something about the right-wing media), American Spectator, Fox news, et cetera. The book details how they and right wing think tanks like the heritage foundation defined the debate on Clinton even in the mainstream media.

:eek: Oh. :eek: Wow.:eek: I'm impressed. THREE whole media outlets. That must be 1 or maybe even 2% of the entire US media industry! In addition, Fox calls out the right as often as the left, that is, when they are wrong. They just have more occasion to call out the Democrats than the Republicans

So when are we going to invade Sri Lanka to destroy the Tamil Tigers?

As soon as we stop Iran from developing nukes, and North Korea from selling theirs... <.<. Seems pretty logical, take out the largest threats to global security first.

As soon as we stop Iran from developing nukes, and North Korea from selling theirs... <.<. Seems pretty logical, take out the largest threats to global security first.

And after we've gone to Syria to get the Iraqi WMDs. After all, several Iraqi officers have said that they were ordered to take them across the border before the UN inspectors could find them.

Classic empty headed liberal debate techniques...Hooray!

Classic mindless conservative technique of blaming the wife for what her husband has done. Can I start blaming Laura for George's actions?

:eek: Oh. :eek: Wow.:eek: I'm impressed. THREE whole media outlets. That must be 1 or maybe even 2% of the entire US media industry! In addition, Fox calls out the right as often as the left, that is, when they are wrong. They just have more occasion to call out the Democrats than the Republicans
National Review, most of the talk radio shows, the NY Post, what do you want from me, a complete list? Can you actually address the substance of my post rather than nitpick about how many conservative news outlets there are? Of course not. Why should I expect intellectual honesty from the average conservative.

As soon as we stop Iran from developing nukes, and North Korea from selling theirs... <.<. Seems pretty logical, take out the largest threats to global security first.
No, the correct answer is never. There will always be "terrorist" organizations. We only need to take out those that are a threat to us. To go after all of them is futile and will bankrupt us.

Classic mindless conservative technique of blaming the wife for what her husband has done. Can I start blaming Laura for George's actions?

No, Classic trait of Republicans of calling the emperor what he is. . .naked
Hillary has committed acts questioned by the American people
Bill has committed acts questioned by the American people
George has committed acts questioned by the American people
Laura is a librarian

No, Classic trait of Republicans of calling the emperor what he is. . .naked
Hillary has committed acts questioned by the American people
Bill has committed acts questioned by the American people
George has committed acts questioned by the American people
Laura is a librarian
Do you think she can be convinced to teach Georgie how to read?

Get used to seeing democrats in power. The mid term elections will swing hard to the Dems and if anyone except Hillary Clinton or Al Sharpton wins the Dem. Primaries in 2008 the Republicans are going to be out of the white house for eight years at least.

No way I'd vote for Al. First he is a reverend second he is a reverend. I have no interest in any man of the cloth being president.

No, the correct answer is never. There will always be "terrorist" organizations. We only need to take out those that are a threat to us. To go after all of them is futile and will bankrupt us.

I hate to pop your bubble, but terrorists that want to kill Americans, will. Whether 1 by 1 or 3,000 at a time, they will. In ancient times, Romans walked freely upon the Earth because everyone else was afraid to touch them for fear of Rome's reprisal. The only way to safeguard Americans is to let terrorists know that our reprisal will be swift and deadly. Without lying, tell me who was president when the Iranian hostages were released, when Kuwait was liberated, during the Battle of Mougadieshu[sic], and the ousting of the Taliban.

Do you think she can be convinced to teach Georgie how to read?

He can read, its just that he keeps getting his merds wixed. ;)

what a pretentious twat. she does have nerve.

"Pretentious twat." That is such a great phase! ::Carnivorous Lickers is awarded 3 happy points::

I hate to pop your bubble, but terrorists that want to kill Americans, will. Whether 1 by 1 or 3,000 at a time, they will. In ancient times, Romans walked freely upon the Earth because everyone else was afraid to touch them for fear of Rome's reprisal. The only way to safeguard Americans is to let terrorists know that our reprisal will be swift and deadly. Without lying, tell me who was president when the Iranian hostages were released, when Kuwait was liberated, during the Battle of Mougadieshu[sic], and the ousting of the Taliban.

More than that, who was in office when Bin Laden was handed to the U.S. on a silver plater and refused to move on it?

No, the correct answer is never. There will always be "terrorist" organizations. We only need to take out those that are a threat to us. To go after all of them is futile and will bankrupt us.

and to be honest, neither you nor I know just which terrorist organizations pose the greatest threat to us.. since we do not know the extent to which they are developed.. the only ppl who know that is in the intelegence agencies..

And the funny thing with terrorist groups.. is that they have that awful knack of working together creating that terrorist "network" phenomina.. You would have us look at them one at a time in the order that which they most threaten us.. Unless you target the network in general, you will never acheive real progress in any of your goals.

Clearly you are oversimplifying a vastly complex problem. A group who we consider benine to our security today could tomorrow become our greatest threat, just because they come in possesion of weapons or materials they may choose to use.. or sell. Through your mentality, we wouldn't even be considering them.

Besides, attacking nations who harbor terrorists sends a clear signal no nation should engage in this activity. Why do you think Al`queada was so well established ? Because for years it has used national funds and armorments to organize itself (through afganistan, to even the US itself at one point in the past).

More than that, who was in office when Bin Laden was handed to the U.S. on a silver plater and refused to move on it?

Clinton was the one holding the platter.

That's one(maybe). I'm still up three(at least).

Get used to seeing democrats in power. The mid term elections will swing hard to the Dems and if anyone except Hillary Clinton or Al Sharpton wins the Dem. Primaries in 2008 the Republicans are going to be out of the white house for eight years at least.

Laughing out loud.

Clinton was the one holding the platter.

That's one(maybe). I'm still up three(at least).

Ding, ding, ding! 1 Happy point for you!

Ding, ding, ding! 1 Happy point for you!

Only one? Come on.

Get used to seeing democrats in power. The mid term elections will swing hard to the Dems and if anyone except Hillary Clinton or Al Sharpton wins the Dem. Primaries in 2008 the Republicans are going to be out of the white house for eight years at least.

Thats so funny, cause i remember hearing the same thing for the 2004 elections :rolleyes: .

And of course national polling is showing Democrats as low or lower in opinion polls as REpublican canidates... due to their now seemingly classic inability to capatialize on Republican hardships.

But that could change.. if they ever come out with an agenda (other then the republicans are wrong).... on any policy issue.. at all.

And if Hilary actually runs for 08 (like I know that caniving rat will) that means the executive will stay with the republicans.. yet again

I hate to pop your bubble, but terrorists that want to kill Americans, will. Whether 1 by 1 or 3,000 at a time, they will. In ancient times, Romans walked freely upon the Earth because everyone else was afraid to touch them for fear of Rome's reprisal. The only way to safeguard Americans is to let terrorists know that our reprisal will be swift and deadly. Without lying, tell me who was president when the Iranian hostages were released, when Kuwait was liberated, during the Battle of Mougadieshu[sic], and the ousting of the Taliban.
1) Regan got the hostages back by reneging on his promise not to deal with terrorists and transferring weapons to an islamist state sponsor of terrorism.

2) Bush the elder liberated Kuwait. He wasn't such a bad president. At least he knew what he was doing.

3) Clinton was in charge during the battle of Mogadishu, but in reality the UN and Butros Butros Gali were in control of that mess.

4) Bush ousted the Taliban after ignoring them long enough to allow their Al Qaeda proxy army to kill 3000 Americans in one day. Then he pretty much abandoned the pursuit of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in order to fight an unecessary war in Iraq.

I have no problem eliminating threats to the US. As long as they're credible threats to the US. Saddam was a man we could do business with. He was a gangster, not an ideologue.

No, the correct answer is never. There will always be "terrorist" organizations. We only need to take out those that are a threat to us. To go after all of them is futile and will bankrupt us.


Dear LORD! I actually agree with you on this! We in the U.S. are not the "good guys" and the terrorists are not the "bad guys" we are just a nation and we are committed to protecting ourselves. That is all. We don't have to--and I might add, would be unable to--correct all the world's ills. All we need to do is kill the threats to our lives and be done with it. You get 1/2 of a Happy point for being right even though you probably didn't mean to be.

and to be honest, neither you nor I know just which terrorist organizations pose the greatest threat to us.. since we do not know the extent to which they are developed.. the only ppl who know that is in the intelegence agencies..

And the funny thing with terrorist groups.. is that they have that awful knack of working together creating that terrorist "network" phenomina.. You would have us look at them one at a time in the order that which they most threaten us.. Unless you target the network in general, you will never acheive real progress in any of your goals.

Clearly you are oversimplifying a vastly complex problem. A group who we consider benine to our security today could tomorrow become our greatest threat, just because they come in possesion of weapons or materials they may choose to use.. or sell. Through your mentality, we wouldn't even be considering them.

Besides, attacking nations who harbor terrorists sends a clear signal no nation should engage in this activity. Why do you think Al`queada was so well established ? Because for years it has used national funds and armorments to organize itself (through afganistan, to even the US itself at one point in the past).
No, I'm not oversimplifying. You're naive. You think that the US has the capability, political will, and international cooperation to tackle every terrorist organization? You're crazy. We've got to focus on the ones who've stated that attacking us is their goal. In particular that means we must fight the Al Qaeda linked organizations.

ETA and EZLN won't be teaming up with Al Qaeda. Shining Path doesn't want to work with Abu Sayyaf. Therefore we don't need to worry about those non-islamist groups. You need to do some reading on terrorism. Some combinations just won't happen.

Thats so funny, cause i remember hearing the same thing for the 2004 elections :rolleyes: .

And of course national polling is showing Democrats as low or lower in opinion polls as REpublican canidates... due to their now seemingly classic inability to capatialize on Republican hardships.

But that could change.. if they ever come out with an agenda (other then the republicans are wrong).... on any policy issue.. at all.

And if Hilary actually runs for 08 (like I know that caniving rat will) that means the executive will stay with the republicans.. yet again

No, THIS TIME all predictions will come true. And everyone will be happy and the rivers will turn into lemonaid and beer and everyone will be able to talk to animals. ...And get a milion dollars. It really COULD happen this time! Really....

1 Happy point for you because you're a silly doubter in the happiness that will ensue when there are no more Republicans. :)

1) Regan got the hostages back by reneging on his promise not to deal with terrorists and transferring weapons to an islamist state sponsor of terrorism.
I have no problem eliminating threats to the US. As long as they're credible threats to the US. Saddam was a man we could do business with. He was a gangster, not an ideologue.

Do you have a problem with dealing with terrorists or not?

3) Clinton was in charge during the battle of Mogadishu, but in reality the UN and Butros Butros Gali were in control of that mess.
Right. Clinton ONLY forced US soldiers to watch civiliand be murdered.

4) Bush ousted the Taliban after ignoring them long enough to allow their Al Qaeda proxy army to kill 3000 Americans in one day. Then he pretty much abandoned the pursuit of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in order to fight an unecessary war in Iraq.


That's why the Military isa still in Afganistan as much as in Iraq

Peace I'm out

No, I'm not oversimplifying. You're naive. You think that the US has the capability, political will, and international cooperation to tackle every terrorist organization? You're crazy. We've got to focus on the ones who've stated that attacking us is their goal. In particular that means we must fight the Al Qaeda linked organizations.

ETA and EZLN won't be teaming up with Al Qaeda. Shining Path doesn't want to work with Abu Sayyaf. Therefore we don't need to worry about those non-islamist groups. You need to do some reading on terrorism. Some combinations just won't happen.

I have just one thing to add: the U.S. could kill every person in every country in the world. We have the capability, and we don't need cooperation.

Do you have a problem with dealing with terrorists or not?


Right. Clinton ONLY forced US soldiers to watch civiliand be murdered.


That's why the Military isa still in Afganistan as much as in Iraq

Peace I'm out
1) I wouldn't deal with terrorists who threaten us. I'd try to exterminate them.

2) Not our civilians. Not our problem. They didn't want us over there anyway. Civilian Somalis carried ammunition and RPG rockets for the guys we were fighting against and provided cover for them to shoot at our guys from.

3) Bullshit. We need alot more troops in Afghanistan. There's an Afghan province that's still under Taliban control (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article345065.ece). We need to control Afghanistan's borders to prevent Al Qaeda hit and run attacks. We need to stamp out the drug lords that have taken power and put money into building their infrastructure so that they can build modern farms and factories and become a functioning state. If not then as soon as we leave Al Qaeda comes right back.

I have just one thing to add: the U.S. could kill every person in every country in the world. We have the capability, and we don't need cooperation.
And that makes our position better how? Nuclear winter, radioactive contamination of much of the world including places rich in natural resources we need, and who knows what kind of unpredictable damage to the environment don't make for good quality of life.

No, I'm not oversimplifying. You're naive. You think that the US has the capability, political will, and international cooperation to tackle every terrorist organization? You're crazy. We've got to focus on the ones who've stated that attacking us is their goal. In particular that means we must fight the Al Qaeda linked organizations.

ETA and EZLN won't be teaming up with Al Qaeda. Shining Path doesn't want to work with Abu Sayyaf. Therefore we don't need to worry about those non-islamist groups. You need to do some reading on terrorism. Some combinations just won't happen.

Your overextrapolating my comments... and ive done more reading on terrorism than you've probably ever cared to think about the subject. You want to talk about organizations who have expressed desire to attack the US or the WEST in general ?! There are hundreds of such organiztions.. more born everyday. You think too small.. because there are no direct links with Al`queda ? what about possible indirect links, through blackmarket connections, sympathizers or middle men. Of course we dont have the resources to attack every terrorist organization out there, no single country has... and the current administration isn't considering doing so. But you DO support nations who have sever terrorist problems like the phillipines, like indoesian governments. You give them training and resources so that local municipalites can deal with the organizations at their grass roots. Because its at the grass root level that key funding and public support is found, this is where recruitment occurs. And its easy once in one terrorist organization to find yourself in many others with different agendas. Not all are directly connect, many are indirectly .. And yes, I would say the US and the international community in general is very unified to address the issues of global security and terrorism. While Iraq was not such a case, five party talks with North Korea and current global unity over Iran are Excellent examples. Neither of which deal solely with al`queda. Al`aqueda will work with any and every organization it deems is useful to meet its ends. If al`queda felt working with ETA would get its recuitment up, or further help distablize the spanish government (or any western government) and ETA felt the resources it could gain from Al`queda would help it gain independence... you dont think they would consider working together ? Who is the naive one here ?

Terrorism and terrorist connections and the overall network of global terrorism is among the most complex organizations we could hope to tackle. You think of Al`queda as the only threat out there !? It is that mentality which allows events like 911 to occur daily. You focus in on one threat, and lose sight of the many others which are just waiting to strike.

And that makes our position better how? Nuclear winter, radioactive contamination of much of the world including places rich in natural resources we need, and who knows what kind of unpredictable damage to the environment don't make for good quality of life.

Never said it did, but we could do it.

No, Classic trait of Republicans of calling the emperor what he is. . .naked
Hillary has committed acts questioned by the American people
Bill has committed acts questioned by the American people
George has committed acts questioned by the American people
Laura is a librarian
Luara is a murderer: she ran over someone in her high school years. Parents paid off family so she wasn't punished of course.Apparently, children do hae a price :p

Your overextrapolating my comments... and ive done more reading on terrorism than you've probably ever cared to think about the subject. You want to talk about organizations who have expressed desire to attack the US or the WEST in general ?! There are hundreds of such organiztions.. more born everyday. You think too small.. because there are no direct links with Al`queda ? what about possible indirect links, through blackmarket connections, sympathizers or middle men. Of course we dont have the resources to attack every terrorist organization out there, no single country has... and the current administration isn't considering doing so. But you DO support nations who have sever terrorist problems like the phillipines, like indoesian governments. You give them training and resources so that local municipalites can deal with the organizations at their grass roots. Because its at the grass root level that key funding and public support is found, this is where recruitment occurs. And its easy once in one terrorist organization to find yourself in many others with different agendas. Not all are directly connect, many are indirectly .. And yes, I would say the US and the international community in general is very unified to address the issues of global security and terrorism. While Iraq was not such a case, five party talks with North Korea and current global unity over Iran are Excellent examples. Neither of which deal solely with al`queda. Al`aqueda will work with any and every organization it deems is useful to meet its ends. If al`queda felt working with ETA would get its recuitment up, or further help distablize the spanish government (or any western government) and ETA felt the resources it could gain from Al`queda would help it gain independence... you dont think they would consider working together ? Who is the naive one here ?

Terrorism and terrorist connections and the overall network of global terrorism is among the most complex organizations we could hope to tackle. You think of Al`queda as the only threat out there !? It is that mentality which allows events like 911 to occur daily. You focus in on one threat, and lose sight of the many others which are just waiting to strike.
1) I never said Al Qaeda linked organizations were the only threat, only the most pressing threat.

2) We've been supporting governments like the Philipines and Indonesia against terrorism since -gasp- The Clinton Years! (remember how FBI investigators cooperated with Philipino investigators in the Bojinka plot?) Earlier really, but you get my point. This isn't something Bush thought up.

3) ETA isn't dumb enough to work with Al Quaeda. ETA has maintained a reptuation for being rather benign. They don't kill many civilians. That works in their favor, but working with Al Qaeda would ruin that image and bring more heat. Also they dont' share Al Qaeda's ideology.

Never said it did, but we could do it.
Ok then. Your post was a complete waste of bandwidth.

1) I wouldn't deal with terrorists who threaten us. I'd try to exterminate them.

So you vote for finally taking out North Korea? I'm not sure if it is too dangerous, but if possible I'd be for it. Do we have the man power (if Bush won't pull troops from Iraq)?

3) Bullshit. We need alot more troops in Afghanistan. There's an Afghan province that's still under Taliban control (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article345065.ece). We need to control Afghanistan's borders to prevent Al Qaeda hit and run attacks. We need to stamp out the drug lords that have taken power and put money into building their infrastructure so that they can build modern farms and factories and become a functioning state. If not then as soon as we leave Al Qaeda comes right back.

Afganistan has a couple troubles:
1., Warlords: no real central govt as long as warlords hold so much power
2. Taliban controlled areas
3. Few U.S. troops to support them

Think if or when we pull troops from Iraq: we will place them in Afgan?

So you vote for finally taking out North Korea? I'm not sure if it is too dangerous, but if possible I'd be for it. Do we have the man power (if Bush won't pull troops from Iraq)?


Afganistan has a couple troubles:
1., Warlords: no real central govt as long as warlords hold so much power
2. Taliban controlled areas
3. Few U.S. troops to support them

Think if or when we pull troops from Iraq: we will place them in Afgan?
1) I would have tackled the N. Korea issue long before Iraq. Iraq wasn't much of an immediate problem.

2) We definately need more manpower and money flowing into Afghanistan. We should have worked on making it a model for the other South Asian muslim states to pattern themselves on by making it prosperous, secure, and free.

Ok then. Your post was a complete waste of bandwidth.

Not any more then any of your posts, since, it was done to correct your mistaken belief that we do not have the capability.

Not any more then any of your posts, since, it was done to correct your mistaken belief that we do not have the capability.
Ok, realistic capability.

2 entries found for pedantic.
pe·dan·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-dntk)
adj.
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pe·danti·cal·ly adv.
Synonyms: pedantic, academic, bookish, donnish, scholastic
These adjectives mean marked by a narrow, often tiresome focus on or display of learning and especially its trivial aspects: a pedantic writing style; an academic insistence on precision; a bookish vocabulary; donnish refinement of speech; scholastic and excessively subtle reasoning.

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


pedantic

adj : marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects [syn: academic, donnish]

See Poliofos

Anyways, I got to go. You know, a life and all. Ciao. Oh and speaking of bandwidth, Poliofos gets 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 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Happy points. Yay!

Pedanic. That's a new one to me. You get 1/2 Happy point for teaching me a new word!

P.S. that puts you at one, full Happy point.

50 Happy points the first one to send my nation a message telling me how many Happy points I just gave myself.

Alright, I'm really going to leave now. Feel free to cheer.

See, we have to have a distinction between wrong and lying. I don't put lying past any politician and particularly federal administrations, but this 'lie' was one that was BOUND to come to light before the next election. It was obvious that this would hurt a future campaign when there were better lies that would take decades to come to light if ever. I don't believe any responsible administration would choose such a short-term lie unless they actually believed it would turn out to be true. I do believe the evidence was faulty and they may have known the evidence was faulty, but I also believe that they truly thought they would turn out to be right.

Meanwhile, I was in the military under Clinton and plenty of yound men and women died under his watch under very shady dealings by the President. Let's not pretend that only a blowjob is on Clinton's list of wrongs. We haven't had a respectable president in a few decades.

Indeed... I'm actually fairly 'non-partisan' about American politics, because I think you have the choice of right-wing talking-heads sponsored by commercial interests, or .... well, more of the same.

However, the first post (the OP) talks about the Monicagate scenario as some kind of crowning achievement of the potential for evil of Democrats.

As I said, I'd rather be lied to about who sucked what, than have to swallow the lack of truth that is STILL killing US soldiers on a daily basis.

As soon as we stop Iran from developing nukes, and North Korea from selling theirs... <.<. Seems pretty logical, take out the largest threats to global security first.

How unpatriotic of you... threatening the US government like that...

4) Bush ousted the Taliban

Heh ... with the staggering number of Taliban warlords currently sitting on the democratically elected parlaiment of Afghanistan, I wouldn't go so far as to say "ousted". :)

No, conservatives side with personal responsibility and liberals side with government dependance.
no it just proves that conservatives side with their a@@holes and liberals side against them

what a pretentious twat. she does have nerve.
Seriously, do you expect anything different from both the Democratic and Republican parties? They laud it when it's one of their politicians and they criticise it when it's one of the other party's.

No, conservatives side with personal responsibility and liberals side with government dependance.
So it's the liberals who think that the government must help parents to find out if their daughter has a abortion?

As soon as we stop Iran from developing nukes, and North Korea from selling theirs... <.<. Seems pretty logical, take out the largest threats to global security first.
They are government operations, not terrorist organisations. That's not to say that I don't want to be rid of Iranian and Korean nuclear weapons. Just that those challenges are not within the scope of the war against terrorism.

Do you think she can be convinced to teach Georgie how to read?
Come on, this is rather unsophisticated for you!

I hate to pop your bubble, but terrorists that want to kill Americans, will. Whether 1 by 1 or 3,000 at a time, they will.
The Tamil Tigers want to kill Americans?

More than that, who was in office when Bin Laden was handed to the U.S. on a silver plater and refused to move on it?
I've heard this phrase many times before (with the same metaphor, even). Well done on your copy+paste job.

I have just one thing to add: the U.S. could kill every person in every country in the world. We have the capability, and we don't need cooperation.
How? The only way I could think of would be to destroy the earth's crust with nuclear weapons. This would involve killing everyone in the US too.

No, the US doesn't have infinite military power.

Not when the events mentioned have nothing to do with any time she has served as an elected public official.

May as well elect a drunken coke-head President ... oh wait ...

you know you've won the debate when your competitor resorts to ad hominem attacks...

Didn't the liberals claim that their candidate's deeds were years ago and had no bearing on the present? Oh, but that was when it was to their advantage to leave the past in the past...

Meanwhile, I was in the military under Clinton and plenty of yound men and women died under his watch under very shady dealings by the President. Let's not pretend that only a blowjob is on Clinton's list of wrongs. We haven't had a respectable president in a few decades.

Take, for example the horror in Somalia. Now there's a president that knows how to support the troops.:rolleyes:

Classic mindless conservative technique of blaming the wife for what her husband has done. Can I start blaming Laura for George's actions?

I believe they were blaming Hillary for what she had done.

National Review, most of the talk radio shows, the NY Post, what do you want from me, a complete list? Can you actually address the substance of my post rather than nitpick about how many conservative news outlets there are? Of course not. Why should I expect intellectual honesty from the average conservative.

The substance of your post seems to be that there are conservative media outlets. Since the percentage of left-wing reporting far outweighs the right-wing reporting, I think your talking out your ass.

No, the correct answer is never. There will always be "terrorist" organizations. We only need to take out those that are a threat to us...

which is precisely what Bush is doing... going after Al Quaida and the nations that support them. Where have you been?

Do you think she can be convinced to teach Georgie how to read?

Debate...won...ad hominem...next.

1) Regan got the hostages back by reneging on his promise not to deal with terrorists and transferring weapons to an islamist state sponsor of terrorism.

2) Bush the elder liberated Kuwait. He wasn't such a bad president. At least he knew what he was doing.

3) Clinton was in charge during the battle of Mogadishu, but in reality the UN and Butros Butros Gali were in control of that mess.

4) Bush ousted the Taliban after ignoring them long enough to allow their Al Qaeda proxy army to kill 3000 Americans in one day. Then he pretty much abandoned the pursuit of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in order to fight an unecessary war in Iraq.

I have no problem eliminating threats to the US. As long as they're credible threats to the US. Saddam was a man we could do business with. He was a gangster, not an ideologue.

1) In fact, Carter did most of the work on that one. reagan just happened to take office before they were returned home.

2) Agree.

3) Which goes to show that the UN is useless, and Clinton allowed our troops to be used by the UN and then denied them the equipment and reinforcements they requested.

4) The taliban came to power in 1996... We went into Afghanistan in 2002, about 1 year after Bush was elected. Who ignored them long enough to help Al Quaida train and operate out of their country??

So it's the liberals who think that the government must help parents to find out if their daughter has a abortion?

I think most parents have the right to know if their minor children are going to have a potentially life-threatening medical procedure. I say most because there are instances where a parent may be the cause of the pregnancy, in which case the court has a compelling interest in stepping in and acting in the child's interest.

Just about all US Presidents cheat on their wives. No one really cared till Clinton did it and the Republicans wanted their presidency back.

Debate...won...ad hominem...next.

Second time you've tried that tactic, friend... I don't think you realise what the 'ad hominem' fallacy actually is.

In order for you to claim 'the win' on 'ad hominem' grounds, the other poster really has to be describing YOU, and how something about YOU makes YOUR argument flawed.

That is why it is a fallacy... because your argument need not depend on your personal self.

Example of the 'ad hominem' fallacy:

"Boobeeland is dumb, therefore, that proves Bush knew there we no WMD's in Iraq".

(For the sake of argument... I was not actually implying you were 'dumb'.)

which is precisely what Bush is doing... going after Al Quaida and the nations that support them. Where have you been?


I've never seen any credible connection suggesting that Al Queda and Iraq were linked.


Except Saddam and Osama Bin Laden being enemies.

Which kind of means that attacking Iraq won't really do shit to Al Queda.

They are government operations, not terrorist organisations. That's not to say that I don't want to be rid of Iranian and Korean nuclear weapons. Just that those challenges are not within the scope of the war against terrorism.


While on their face they seem as government operations, they have very real implications on the war on terror. For North Korea, we have a very real, very well founded fear of necular proliferation, as NK has an extensive history of selling its weapons to anyone willing to buy. The idea of them producing nukes brings the reality of terrorist organizations attaining necular devices all the more real. For Iran, which is a far more obvious line, openly supports terrorist organizations who have expressed desire to strike out at western targets, and themselves openly promote hatrid against the West. AGain that idea of proliferation as well as state sponsored terrorism comes into play. Both Iran and North Korea fall in the same lines as Afganistan and Iraq, with ties to terrorism (not nessearly Al`queda but state sponsored terrorism in general)

Get used to seeing democrats in power. The mid term elections will swing hard to the Dems and if anyone except Hillary Clinton or Al Sharpton wins the Dem. Primaries in 2008 the Republicans are going to be out of the white house for eight years at least.

*daydreams about the happy days approaching*

Sorry, buddy, but the Republicans have gerrymandered and outspent the good ol' dems in every election. Then they start fronting their "morals" and "family values." A surefire strategy for political victory in the U.S. :(

*retches all over keyboard at hearing someone say "fox news"*

1) I never said Al Qaeda linked organizations were the only threat, only the most pressing threat.

2) We've been supporting governments like the Philipines and Indonesia against terrorism since -gasp- The Clinton Years! (remember how FBI investigators cooperated with Philipino investigators in the Bojinka plot?) Earlier really, but you get my point. This isn't something Bush thought up.

3) ETA isn't dumb enough to work with Al Quaeda. ETA has maintained a reptuation for being rather benign. They don't kill many civilians. That works in their favor, but working with Al Qaeda would ruin that image and bring more heat. Also they dont' share Al Qaeda's ideology.

Im wondering how much ideology Iraqi insurgents share in common with Al Qaeda fundamentalist (so much so that reports have come in of them being at odds). The fact of the matter is, in the world of terrorism, there is such a thing as relationships of convience. Just because 2 groups dont share identical ideologies, does not mean they could not, or would not collaberate to both meet the ends of their goals. Im not saying ETA will or should work with Al`qaeda, only that its not out of the realm of possibility. As well given the post 911 world.. you cannot continue to see terrorism as a local or civil problem, to be dealt with law enforcement. But rather it should be seen as a national and many times international problem to be dealt through military means.

As for the Philipines and indonesia, while of course in the past we have assisted with anti-terrorist enforcement, there is simply no comparison between pre and post 911 efforts. Today we offer military troops, equpitment training and funding... far beyond FBI collaberation. This is because these areas have been identified as fundamentalist breeding grounds .

While I agree with prioritzation (as I have stated in the past with North Korea and Iran.. as well as Al`Qaeda) you simply cannot limit your scope to these elements as terrorism today is on a global level with intertwining networks of financing, trade, and recruitment. A global war on terrorism is meant to illustrate the scope by which the international community is now address the phenomina of terrorism as it has crossed boarders and nations. No not EVERY terrorist organization is involved, or should even be addressed with the same deterimination, but at the same time, you cannot ignore the connections terrorist organziations often maintain with one another. If you seek to disloge the larger ones.. you'll be far more effective by cuting those connections and distrupting the global networks (which often means targeting the smaller organizations)

1) I would have tackled the N. Korea issue long before Iraq. Iraq wasn't much of an immediate problem.


Funny you would mention that.. thanks to Clintons "deal" with North Korea, we didn't even know they were a problem until AFTER Iraq. We were never given that option. But had we known I could almsot garantee we would not have invaded Iraq with the reality that NK already "Claims" to have Nukes, and threatens to use them (not that this is actually plausible for Kim Jong Ill).

you know you've won the debate when your competitor resorts to ad hominem attacks...

you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means.

No, perjury is lying under oath to a federal grand jury during an investigation. Yes It is a federal crime to lie to a federal grand jury. Not to mention lying to an entire nation and getting others to lie for him. Someone needs to go and read the laws pertaining to such incidents. As you Democrates say, no President os above the law, and that includes Clinton.

Most of Clinton's alleged lies were NOT under oath to a federal grand jury.

Moreover, perjury is not simply lying. Check the law. The lie must be material – that is, important or relevant to the case. A murder suspect who falsely testifies that he ate cereal in jail that morning cannot be prosecuted for perjury over that irrelevant lie.

Someone needs to go and read the law and the history pertaining to such incidents. Perhaps you are thinking of "Scooter" Libby.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-clintonperjury.html

"A tendency of this administration -- from the top all the way to the bottom -- is to withhold information ... to refuse to be forthcoming about information that is of significance and relevance to the jobs that all of you do, and the interests of the American people," (NY Sen. Hillary)Clinton said.

Hmm let me see...Whitewater (stonewall, files magically appearing), Vince Foster (removing files, delay, stonewall) , Monica Lewinski( perjury, stonewalling,suborning perjury, deny deny deny), FBI Files (delay -deny)

Pot, meet Kettle

Hmm, let me see.

Whitewater -- Clintons cleared

Vince Foster - Clintons cleared

Monica Lewinsky - much ado over a blowjob, completely unrelated to matters of state and definitely not the fault of Senator Clinton

FBI Files - Clintons cleared

Please tell me, which of the scandals of the Bush Administration has had an independent prosecutor look into it ad infinitum and found no wrongdoing?

The substance of your post seems to be that there are conservative media outlets. Since the percentage of left-wing reporting far outweighs the right-wing reporting, I think your talking out your ass.
You seem to have some trouble reading. I'll try to simple it up for you.

David Brock wrote a book.

David's book talked about his career as a right-wing journalist.

David's book explained how right-wing think tanks and right wing media outlets manipulated the debate about the Clintons even to the point of altering the mainstream media's coverage of the issue.

Take a break. The previous sentence was rather long.

David explained how a right-wing conspiracy that involved right-wing media outlets worked to spread lies about the Clintons.

David's book is called Blinded by the Right. You should go to the library and borrow it.

You seem to have some trouble reading. I'll try to simple it up for you.

David Brock wrote a book.

David's book talked about his career as a right-wing journalist.

David's book explained how right-wing think tanks and right wing media outlets manipulated the debate about the Clintons even to the point of altering the mainstream media's coverage of the issue.

Take a break. The previous sentence was rather long.

David explained how a right-wing conspiracy that involved right-wing media outlets worked to spread lies about the Clintons.

David's book is called Blinded by the Right. You should go to the library and borrow it.

"but the media is liberal, so your 'facts' and 'evidence' must be wrong"

Just about all US Presidents cheat on their wives. No one really cared till Clinton did it and the Republicans wanted their presidency back.

And I suppose if Pres. Bush did the same thing you'd be just as forgiving.

Yay for Double Standards!

And I suppose if Pres. Bush did the same thing you'd be just as forgiving.

Yay for Double Standards!

I wouldn't mind if there weren't other circumstances. He started a war under false pretenses, cut the oil corporation subsidies (which increased gas prices to their current point), and is against the environment (so much so that he opened thousands of acres of federal forest land in Texas to commercial development).

He's done enough that if he can be "gotten" on one tiny thing like cheating on his wife, then so be it. All the better.

you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means.

Free Soviets 'wins' the debate, through successful invocation of The Montoya Principle.

Second time you've tried that tactic, friend... I don't think you realise what the 'ad hominem' fallacy actually is.


you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means.

Pardon, I meant personal attacks. My point is that rather than making a valid point, DCD resorted to calling Bush names. Reminds me of the fifth grade.

What color is the sky on the planet you live on?
Why, is all you see brown? Could be where you've been stuffing your head.

Pardon, I meant personal attacks. My point is that rather than making a valid point, DCD resorted to calling Bush names. Reminds me of the fifth grade.
Or right-wing radio.
Even BUSH ADMITS to making names up for everyone that works for him, and a lot of people who don't.
Maybe you should punch up "Turd Blossom".

Deflect the issues at hand with non-sequitors...checkRead the post again. Failed.

Instantly degenerate into name calling ...checkNot name calling. It's an expression of the nature of actual issues regarding the person.

Classic empty headed liberal debate techniques...Hooray!
Kettle, black indeed. :rolleyes:

And after we've gone to Syria to get the Iraqi WMDs. After all, several Iraqi officers have said that they were ordered to take them across the border before the UN inspectors could find them.
And they've been so forthcoming as to substantiate their claims. Even just a smidge. One.
And there's links of proof and not just right-wing blabbermouth bullsh*t. Just a smidge. One.

Do you think she can be convinced to teach Georgie how to read?
Yeah, remember how much trouble he had with My Pet Goat.
and ...

Remember how much he had to learn on the ranch ...

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/laurabush/a/laurabushcomedy.htm

George didn't know much about ranches when we bought the place. Andover and Yale don't have a real strong ranching program. But I'm proud of George. He's learned a lot about ranching since that first year when he tried to milk the horse. What's worse, it was a male horse.

Reminds me of another thread currently up here on NS ... :D

no it just proves that conservatives side with their a@@holes and liberals side against them
Liberals oughtta be slidin' UP them conservatives instead of having so many issues with "respect"!
Long since overdue.

While on their face they seem as government operations, they have very real implications on the war on terror. For North Korea, we have a very real, very well founded fear of necular proliferation, as NK has an extensive history of selling its weapons to anyone willing to buy. The idea of them producing nukes brings the reality of terrorist organizations attaining necular devices all the more real. For Iran, which is a far more obvious line, openly supports terrorist organizations who have expressed desire to strike out at western targets, and themselves openly promote hatrid against the West. AGain that idea of proliferation as well as state sponsored terrorism comes into play. Both Iran and North Korea fall in the same lines as Afganistan and Iraq, with ties to terrorism (not nessearly Al`queda but state sponsored terrorism in general)
What is it with conservatives being INCAPABLE of saying a relatively simple term? *shakes head*

And I suppose if Pres. Bush did the same thing you'd be just as forgiving.

Yay for Double Standards!
It wasn't your f*cking business and it wasn't mine either!
I'd say that's a conservative standard, alright - sticking their bullsh*t where it doesn't belong AND THEN DUPLISTICALLY CLAIMING that the DEMOCRATS are the ones who want a big, intrusive government.
Well, look at the last few years and reflect. Don't get distracted, though, the same thing results in a lot of roadkill.

The intelligence fron Britain, Russia, and the US all agreed on the presence of WMD's in Iraq. The UN weapons inspectors agreed, before they were booted by Saddam, that the weapons were there. It is NOT, therefore, lying to report what the best intelligence in the world has to say on the subject.
You're not only being disingenuous, you could actually be lying here.
See the Butler Report in its entirety
See the Duelfer ReportS yes both of them, pre, post
See the Downing Street Memos
See the BND Report against WMD claims not the newest report, look a little harder
And see these, here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0602110110feb11,1,352886.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

Book: Bush, Blair were set on Iraq war despite UN
British author writes 2 leaders conspired (Bush's Bitch! -O3d)

By John Daniszewski
Tribune Newspapers: Los Angeles Times
Published February 11, 2006


LONDON -- It was the end of January 2003. Secretary of State Colin Powell was five days away from giving a key speech at the UN Security Council, laying out the case that Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction and posed a danger to world peace.

But huddled with aides at the White House, President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair were not sure there was enough evidence to convince the Security Council. Without the council's explicit authorization, their plans for an invasion to depose Saddam Hussein could be difficult to defend under international law.

Bush proposed an alternative: Paint a U.S. spy plane in UN colors and see whether they couldn't tempt Saddam Hussein's forces to shoot at it. In any case, he said, the war was "penciled in" for March 10 and the United States would go ahead with or without a second UN resolution.

Blair replied that he was "solidly with" the president.
-
Source unidentified

That is the gist of an account of the Jan. 31, 2003, meeting contained in the new edition of a book, "Lawless World," by British author Philippe Sands. The author has not identified the writer of a memorandum on which the account is based, but British press reports say it was one of the aides in attendance: Sir David Manning, then security adviser to Blair and now the British ambassador in Washington. (See Downing Street Memos - O3d)

A spokesman for Blair on Friday refused to address the allegations but repeated Downing Street's insistence that there was no decision to commit British forces to war in Iraq until after it was authorized by Parliament on March 18, 2003, two days before the invasion began. (see "Old news" comment - O3d)

A spokesman for Manning said that the ambassador would not comment.

In Washington, Frederick Jones, a spokesman for the National Security Council, said, "We are not going to comment on private conversations between the president and another world leader."

Sands, 45, is an international law professor and a founding member of the Matrix law office in London where Cherie Blair, the prime minister's wife, also works. His book, which was first published last year, is not primarily about the decision to go to war in Iraq. Rather, it examines a range of issues in which he argues that the Bush administration, with Britain's complicity, has undermined the "rules-based" international system of which the United States and Britain were the principal architects after World War II.

Author defends authenticity

Sands said there was no doubt about the authenticity of the documents that he quotes in his book.

"They have not been denied and they cannot be denied," he told the Times this week. Britain's Channel 4 News says it has also seen the document outside of Britain. Its journalist Jon Snow presented excerpts in a broadcast last weekend.

The text, in Sands' view, shows that U.S. and British leaders had determined six weeks before the invasion to launch a war to disarm Hussein, even without explicit United Nations approval.

According to the secret notes of the meeting, as paraphrased by Sands in his book and then quoted directly by Channel 4, Bush told Blair that "the U.S. was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colors. If Saddam fires on them, he would be in breach."

Bush also was quoted as saying that an Iraqi defector might make a public presentation about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and that there was a small possibility that the Iraqi leader would be assassinated.

The accounts say Bush promised to put the full weight of the United States behind getting another UN resolution but if that failed, military action would follow, anyway. And he is quoted as saying he thought internecine warfare in Iraq was unlikely. (see Civil War - O3d)

Blair is quoted as saying that a second Security Council resolution is desirable to "provide an insurance policy against the unexpected, and international cover--including with the Arabs." But he is also quoted as saying he is behind Bush.

"The documents ... indicate very clearly that neither man considered that the British or American governments had enough evidence," Sands said.

Ian Gleeson, a spokesman for 10 Downing Street, said Britain had waited until March 18 to commit its forces and earlier pursued "all other avenues" to compel Hussein to disarm.

Sands said he disagreed with the assertion that Blair's conduct had already been investigated, and said that the documents now coming out could form the basis of a motion of impeachment against the British prime minister.
-----
And ...

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060301faessay85202-p0/paul-r-pillar/intelligence-policy-and-the-war-in-iraq.html
Summary: During the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, writes the intelligence community's former senior analyst for the Middle East, the Bush administration disregarded the community's expertise, politicized the intelligence process, and selected unrepresentative raw intelligence to make its public case.

PAUL R. PILLAR is on the faculty of the Security Studies Program at Georgetown University. Concluding a long career in the Central Intelligence Agency, he served as National Intelligence Officer for the Near East and South Asia from 2000 to 2005.

Ex-C.I.A. Official Says Iraq Data Was Distorted
By SCOTT SHANE
Published: February 11, 2006

WASHINGTON, Feb. 10 — A C.I.A. veteran who oversaw intelligence assessments about the Middle East from 2000 to 2005 on Friday accused the Bush administration of ignoring or distorting the prewar evidence on a broad range of issues related to Iraq in its effort to justify the American invasion of 2003.

The views of Paul R. Pillar, who retired in October as national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia, echoed previous criticism from Democrats and from some administration officials, including Richard A. Clarke, the former White House counterterrorism adviser, and Paul H. O'Neill, the former treasury secretary.

But Mr. Pillar is the first high-level C.I.A. insider to speak out by name on the use of prewar intelligence. His article for the March-April issue of Foreign Affairs, which charges the administration with the selective use of intelligence about Iraq's unconventional weapons and the chances of postwar chaos in Iraq, was posted Friday on the journal's Web site after it was reported in The Washington Post.

"If the entire body of official intelligence on Iraq had a policy implication, it was to avoid war — or, if war was going to be launched, to prepare for a messy aftermath," Mr. Pillar wrote. "What is most remarkable about prewar U.S. intelligence on Iraq is not that it got things wrong and thereby misled policymakers; it is that it played so small a role in one of the most important U.S. policy decisions in decades."

In an interview on Friday, Mr. Pillar said he recognized that his views would become part of the highly partisan, three-year-old battle over the administration's reasons for going to war. But he said his goal in speaking publicly was to help repair what he called a "broken" relationship between the intelligence produced by the nation's spies and the way it is used by its leaders.

"There is ground to be replowed on Iraq," said Mr. Pillar, now a professor at Georgetown University. "But what is more important is to look at the whole intelligence-policy relationship and get a discussion and debate going to make sure what happened on Iraq doesn't happen again."

President Bush and his aides have denied that the Iraq intelligence was politicized. Stephen J. Hadley, the national security adviser, said in November, "Our statements about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein were based on the aggregation of intelligence from a number of sources, and represented the collective view of the intelligence community. Those judgments were shared by Republicans and Democrats alike."

Reports by the Senate Intelligence Committee and the presidential commission on weapons intelligence headed by Laurence H. Silberman, a senior federal judge, and Charles S. Robb, the former Virginia governor and senator, found that C.I.A. analysts had not been pressed to change their views. A second phase of the Senate committee review, on how administration officials used intelligence, has not been completed.

Mr. Pillar alleged that the earlier studies had considered only "the crudest attempts at politicization" and that the real pressures were far more subtle. "Intelligence was misused publicly to justify decisions that had already been made," chiefly to topple Mr. Hussein in order to "shake up the sclerotic power structures of the Middle East," he wrote.

According to Mr. Pillar's account, the administration shaped the answers it got in part by repeatedly asking the same questions, about the threat posed by Iraqi weapons and about ties between Mr. Hussein and Al Qaeda. When intelligence analysts resisted, he wrote, some of the administration's allies accused Mr. Pillar and others of "trying to sabotage the president's policies."

In light of such accusations, he wrote, analysts began to "sugarcoat" their conclusions.

Mr. Pillar called for a formal declaration by Congress and the White House that intelligence should be clearly separated from policy. He proposed the creation of an independent office, modeled on the Government Accountability Office and the Congressional Budget Office, to assess the use of intelligence at the request of members of Congress.

Mr. Pillar suggested that the root of the problem might be that top intelligence officials serve at the pleasure of the president.


A C.I.A. spokeswoman, Jennifer Millerwise Dyck, said the agency had no comment.

Danielle Pletka, vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, said that the C.I.A. had long resisted intervention in Iraq, and that internal pressure on analysts to resist war was greater than any external pressure.

"If the C.I.A. had spent less time leaking its opinions, throughout the 1990's, opposed to any conflict with Iraq, and more time developing assets inside Iraq, the agency would have more credibility and better intelligence," said Ms. Pletka, who served for a decade, until 2002, as a Republican staff member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
-----------------


That still doesn't make it lying.
...the same cannot be said about Bush with any certainty. ... The subject of the lying is irrelevant in this case. He lied under oath. He was the President. He purposefully broke the law..... You can(not) say the same about Bush if you look at the course of events objectively.Still got the same answer? Well there's two likely reasons for that - one, you are a liar. Two - you won't like what other people are going to have to tell you what the second reason is, but you won't figure it out on your own.

It's amazing how a thread about Clinton requires people to end up discussing Bush. Partisan politics is destroying our country.

Partisan Idiot #1:"Look what you did."
Partisan Idiot #2:"You're doing it too."
PI#!:"You did it first."
PI#2:"You did it worse."
PI#1:"You're destroying our country."
PI#2:"You're destroying our country."
Me:"You're both right."

What Bush has done is not a defense for Clinton. What Clinton did is not a defense for Bush. They are both horrible people who I wouldn't let walk my cat, even if my cat is only imaginary. Both of them are more worried about politics than the people. Both of them would screw over a soldier or a public servant if it furthered their own interests. Both of them were not willing to be placed in harm's way but had no problem putting our men and women, myself included. Both of them did so to further an agenda that had nothing to do with helping or protecting the US or meeting the needs of its people.

I see people worrying more about what party a president or candidate belongs to than to their actual faults and strength before deriding or praising him (and it's always a him). You can claim that it's the lesser of two evil's that you're choosing to support but in the end you still end up with evil.

It's amazing how a thread about Clinton requires people to end up discussing Bush. Partisan politics is destroying our country.

Partisan Idiot #1:"Look what you did."
Partisan Idiot #2:"You're doing it too."
PI#!:"You did it first."
PI#2:"You did it worse."
PI#1:"You're destroying our country."
PI#2:"You're destroying our country."
Me:"You're both right."

What Bush has done is not a defense for Clinton. What Clinton did is not a defense for Bush. They are both horrible people who I wouldn't let walk my cat, even if my cat is only imaginary. Both of them are more worried about politics than the people. Both of them would screw over a soldier or a public servant if it furthered their own interests. Both of them were not willing to be placed in harm's way but had no problem putting our men and women, myself included. Both of them did so to further an agenda that had nothing to do with helping or protecting the US or meeting the needs of its people.

I see people worrying more about what party a president or candidate belongs to than to their actual faults and strength before deriding or praising him (and it's always a him). You can claim that it's the lesser of two evil's that you're choosing to support but in the end you still end up with evil.

See, for me... as something of a 'non-partisan' on American politics... it always comes down to the money.

Clinton lied: Cost = drycleaning bill....

Bush lied: Cost = 400 billion dollars, 2000 US servicemen fatalities.... and counting...

See, for me... as something of a 'non-partisan' on American politics... it always comes down to the money.

Clinton lied: Cost = drycleaning bill....

Bush lied: Cost = 400 billion dollars, 2000 US servicemen fatalities.... and counting...

Well, I tend to look at it a little more broadly.

First, I don't buy Bush lied. At least, not the lie everyone touts. I believe they had other reasons for going into Iraq, but I don't believe that the WMD argument was a lie. It was a 'lie' that was bound to come out before the next election and a 'lie' that would hurt him in that election. There were plenty of other reasons he could have given, but he chose that one. I would say that means he believed they would find WMD's. Now, I'll add the caveat that this doesn't mean that he had any faith in the veracity of the intelligence reports, but I do believe they thought we would find WMD's. Otherwise, they could have simply used a lie that would take decades to uncover.

Second, there are many more Bush problems that I'm not going to address simply because that's not the topic of the thread.

Third, Clinton did a hell of a lot more than lie about a blowjob.

Examples:
1. He was dismantling the military while involving us in civil wars. Exactly the type of wars he protested US involvement in when it was his turn to serve. Wars that because we were bound by certain protocols resulted in horrible attrocities against our soldiers.

2. He clearly violated the US Constitution's full faith and credit clause with the DOMA. With one hand he stroked the Gay community by claiming he would allow gays in the military (while actually doing no such thing. There was almost no change to current practice and policy in the military and it was all just a mirage.) With the other hand he is actively saying that unlike any other form of marriage, gays marriages do not recieve full faith and credit, basically creating a federal law that says gays do not deserve to be protected by said clause.

Yes, I would say that civil rights violation against a group you used to help you get elected is pretty much evil. Clinton's lies cost people rights. So did Bush's. Both of these people not only don't deserve to hold the highest office in the land, but should be ostracized by the entire population. Instead roughly half of the population is defending each of them simply because of the letter next to their name being a D or an R.