NationStates Jolt Archive

I'd rather not have this turn into a discussion of the impossibilities of time travel (especially since I believe in loop theory and thus what I'm suggesting is already impossible in my mind), but if someone killed the newborn Jesus (or Yeshua as was his true name) what would the world be like now? Obviously Christianity would never have been formed, nor would have Islam. Would the Pagan faiths have persisted throughout the west to still be the most common religions? How would technology be different? What kind of differences would there be in philosophy? Would America ever have formed? Would imperialism and colonialism have ever occured? In general what would the world be like today?

Any thoughts?

If the newborn Jesus evaded being killed by a king because God made the 3 magi deliver a message telling Mary and Joseph where to go to get away, what makes you think God wouldn't just tell them how to avoid you like He did when a king was after Him?

supposing that jesus existed. how are you going to find him? what year are you setting the way-back machine to? what town are you going to look in? what criteria are you going to use to decide that this baby is indeed the messiah?

I don't think it would be possible; the mechanics of it would pretty much prevent you from doing something to that effect. You could interact with, but couldn't really kill Jesus.

This isn't taking in to account the theological aspect of it, just the mechanical.

If you went back and killed Jesus then your present self wouldn't know to go back and kill Jesus so you wouldn't go back and kill Jesus.

And from then on it basically goes round in a circle.

supposing that jesus existed. how are you going to find him? what year are you setting the way-back machine to? what town are you going to look in? what criteria are you going to use to decide that this baby is indeed the messiah?

If he doesn't mind the collateral damage and ramifications on the time space continuum, he could always steal Fat Man or Little Boy or a LGM-118 somewhere and just glass the whole area.

The problem the OP is having here is that they specified that they would be killing Jesus. If they had just asked what would have happened had Jesus died prematurely they would have gotten the answers they seek. A lesson for us all.

Unless I'm mistaken this thread is asking a historical "what-if?" question. Anways, here's my take on it: Christianity was one of many somewhat mystical cults emerging in the roman empire. If it hadn't been born, another would've. If said cult didn't emerge in Israel, however, the history of the Jewish race might have been substantially less hazardous.

I like the idea that by the time that temporal traversion became an applicable reality for our species (or other species with co-dependent aspects), someone didn't intervene with the crucifixion so much as the tomb/3 day thing, and then brought him/it back in time (after a little cosmetic fixing up of course) to witness the thermonuclear ultimatum that his f*cked up zealot worshippers dealt to everyone else on the planet, and for him to make public a renunciation of all things subversive and unclear about anything "God" truly said or did, and then we'd see where it went from there.

You can't kill Jesus....I need Jesus! Don't take away my fix!

I don't think it would be possible; the mechanics of it would pretty much prevent you from doing something to that effect. You could interact with, but couldn't really kill Jesus.

This isn't taking in to account the theological aspect of it, just the mechanical.
Well, it was clearly posted that mechanics weren't the issue, but i'll bite ...
consider that the very act of time travel could be AT THAT POINT part of history, and, in still being a linear act within certain sets, you provide what would otherwise be new information to the matrix (not the movie :rolleyes: )
and due that, you wouldn't be bound by that theory of temporal mechanics.
Besides, if you get into information theory, and Einstein-Rosen bridges (and Podolsky, i guess) you find that there's interesting value for information content at any given point in any given coordinates. Really, not quite so impossible. There's still a few things that obviously need to be ironed out in the reality we think we know now, anyway.

The Roman Empire probably wouldn't have collapsed and wouldn't have had the dark ages that set civilization back a 1000 years.
We could've had colonies on Mars by now! Thanks a lot, Jesus! =/

If you went back and killed Jesus then your present self wouldn't know to go back and kill Jesus so you wouldn't go back and kill Jesus.

And from then on it basically goes round in a circle.
Depends ... Simple many world theory solves that parodox

But, someone already did go back in time & killed the founder of a terrible World gorger faith before he got active... I mean, be real, you don't see any Barnabians around, do you? As a result Christianity rose up, which, as bad as it is, by comparison is positively benign.

If he doesn't mind the collateral damage and ramifications on the time space continuum, he could always steal Fat Man or Little Boy or a LGM-118 somewhere and just glass the whole area.
unless he chooses the wrong year and "jesus" is living in egypt

I'd rather not have this turn into a discussion of the impossibilities of time travel (especially since I believe in loop theory and thus what I'm suggesting is already impossible in my mind), but if someone killed the newborn Jesus (or Yeshua as was his true name) what would the world be like now? Obviously Christianity would never have been formed, nor would have Islam. Would the Pagan faiths have persisted throughout the west to still be the most common religions? How would technology be different? What kind of differences would there be in philosophy? Would America ever have formed? Would imperialism and colonialism have ever occured? In general what would the world be like today?

Any thoughts?

Something exactly like Christianity would have arisen. It might even have been called Christianity, since Christ was his title, not his name. Christ was a completly insignificant street preacher in his life. A lot of people were saying exactly what he said. The story became an attractive one, and would have been told exactly the same way even if some other street preacher saying similar things had to get the letterhead. It would still be Christianity, even if it was the worship of Bob Christ, Isaiah Christ, or Julius Christ.

Christianity arose not because of the brilliant political philosophy of a man centuries ahead of his time. It arose because Rome needed a single figure to act as a point of unity forit citizens. That's why it has all those pretty statues, that the Bible explicitly forbids. Its success is owed to its political usefulness, not its poigniancy or spiritual truth.

As for the time travel angle. Well, I'm a fan of the tourist paradox. There'd be so many other time travelers there, you'd never get near the guy.

The Roman Empire probably wouldn't have collapsed and wouldn't have had the dark ages that set civilization back a 1000 years.
We could've had colonies on Mars by now! Thanks a lot, Jesus! =/
Howdid Jesus destroy Rome exactly?

Something exactly like Christianity would have arisen. It might even have been called Christianity, since Christ was his title, not his name. Christ was a completly insignificant street preacher in his life. A lot of people were saying exactly what he said. The story became an attractive one, and would have been told exactly the same way even if some other street preacher saying similar things had to get the letterhead. It would still be Christianity, even if it was the worship of Bob Christ, Isaiah Christ, or Julius Christ.
Or ... Luda- Christ? :D

Christianity arose not because of the brilliant political philosophy of a man centuries ahead of his time. It arose because Rome needed a single figure to act as a point of unity forit citizens. That's why it has all those pretty statues, that the Bible explicitly forbids. Its success is owed to its political usefulness, not its poigniancy or spiritual truth.

As for the time travel angle. Well, I'm a fan of the tourist paradox. There'd be so many other time travelers there, you'd never get near the guy.
Well i heard mention of "glass"ing the place.

The problem the OP is having here is that they specified that they would be killing Jesus. If they had just asked what would have happened had Jesus died prematurely they would have gotten the answers they seek. A lesson for us all.

Unless I'm mistaken this thread is asking a historical "what-if?" question. Anways, here's my take on it: Christianity was one of many somewhat mystical cults emerging in the roman empire. If it hadn't been born, another would've. If said cult didn't emerge in Israel, however, the history of the Jewish race might have been substantially less hazardous.

Yes, I'll take definitely take this as lesson in that I cannot assume that anyone will actually take the time to read the OP. I do not think that it can be assumed if Jesus was never born (or killed as an infant) that it would not completely alter history. Granted through out Roman history various cults sprout from Roman paganism, but because of their origin in the mainstream religion at the time (and the wide spread tolerance for other religions inherent in polytheism) these offshoots would be of even less significance than the various branchs of Christianity. What made Jesus significant was that he emerged from such a backwards and broken people, preached a message completely contrary to that of the Roman religions (essentially a glorification of meekness) that also rejected this world for the sake of a better life after death (the Roman afterlife, like that of most pagan faiths, is rather bleak), and included beliefs demanding the conversion of people of other faiths (leading to Christianty being the dominant religion in Europe, the suppression of other religions, and a motivation or justification for much of colonialism and conquest). So the only way that a premature death of Jesus would not be significant is if another Jew arose with similar beliefs (which is extremely unlikely given their strangeness at the time). If Jesus never lived, it would be difficult to say how the Jews would be doing today (whether better or worse).

Depends ... Simple many world theory solves that parodox

Well I suppose, but I don't really believe that.

The Roman Empire probably wouldn't have collapsed and wouldn't have had the dark ages that set civilization back a 1000 years.
We could've had colonies on Mars by now! Thanks a lot, Jesus! =/

The fall of the Roman Empire had nothing to do with Christianity; the empire would have still collapsed but pagan faiths (particularly those unconnected to the empire) would have remained dominant.

Something exactly like Christianity would have arisen. It might even have been called Christianity, since Christ was his title, not his name. Christ was a completly insignificant street preacher in his life. A lot of people were saying exactly what he said. The story became an attractive one, and would have been told exactly the same way even if some other street preacher saying similar things had to get the letterhead. It would still be Christianity, even if it was the worship of Bob Christ, Isaiah Christ, or Julius Christ.

Christianity arose not because of the brilliant political philosophy of a man centuries ahead of his time. It arose because Rome needed a single figure to act as a point of unity forit citizens. That's why it has all those pretty statues, that the Bible explicitly forbids. Its success is owed to its political usefulness, not its poigniancy or spiritual truth.


You are correct in that Christ was far from being brilliant and his message certainly contained no spiritual truth, and that Rome eventually propped him up as a political tool; but his message was for far from being common (largely since it conflicts with common snese) as anyone who knows anything about the nature of the common faiths at the time knows.

I'd rather not have this turn into a discussion of the impossibilities of time travel (especially since I believe in loop theory and thus what I'm suggesting is already impossible in my mind), but if someone killed the newborn Jesus (or Yeshua as was his true name) what would the world be like now?


Suggested reading for you, young-fellow-me-lad, is Michael Moorcock's Behold The Man (1967 as novella, 1969 and subsequent revisions as a novel).

'It's a lie, it's a lie, it's a lie!

Suggested reading for you, young-fellow-me-lad, is Michael Moorcock's Behold The Man (1967 as novella, 1969 and subsequent revisions as a novel).

'It's a lie, it's a lie, it's a lie!

You're missing the point, of course Jesus wasn't anything divine, supernatural, or otherwise sacred; but the religion that sprouted from him (largely though the efforts of Paul) has had a profound impact on Western culture and even for those of us who are not Christians, the various philosophies formed with Christianity as a base continue to affect us.

The major reilgon would have been judaism(thats me!) . The only thing that brought around the major fall in judaism was Jueses and the reilgons that followed him. Yes the jews would have trouble with the romans and greeks, but as we saw in the 7 day war when push comes to shove jews can fight. I think we would end up with most of the same things, but there would be two or three major empires: The jews, the muslims, and the Roman type reilgon. they would expand and then we would have a stand off like the cold war were no one moved or we were launching the nukes.:cool:

You are correct in that Christ was far from being brilliant and his message certainly contained no spiritual truth, and that Rome eventually propped him up as a political tool; but his message was for far from being common (largely since it conflicts with common snese) as anyone who knows anything about the nature of the common faiths at the time knows.

It may not have been common in Rome, but various strains of it were already present in various Greek philosophies of the time. That's why it caught on so much in Greece. Some sort of similar philosophy to Christianity could have emerged merely as a synthesis of the various ideas already flitting around at the time. Don't forget that romans were already turning from mainstream roman faith in droves.

Howdid Jesus destroy Rome exactly?
He kicked over a lantern in a small barn on the outskirts of Rome, and the fire grew into a blaze that burned for several days in spite of the efforts of the Chicago Firefighters.
Then He blamed the whole thing on a cow and ran away.

The major reilgon would have been judaism(thats me!) . The only thing that brought around the major fall in judaism was Jueses and the reilgons that followed him. Yes the jews would have trouble with the romans and greeks, but as we saw in the 7 day war when push comes to shove jews can fight. I think we would end up with most of the same things, but there would be two or three major empires: The jews, the muslims, and the Roman type reilgon. they would expand and then we would have a stand off like the cold war were no one moved or we were launching the nukes.:cool:

The Jews were a roman province at the point of Jesus's birth, and they had been fairly insular for centuries. I'm not sure what sort of impetus could have moved them to attempt to create an empire, especially with rome breathing down their neck.

The major reilgon would have been judaism(thats me!) . The only thing that brought around the major fall in judaism was Jueses and the reilgons that followed him. Yes the jews would have trouble with the romans and greeks, but as we saw in the 7 day war when push comes to shove jews can fight. I think we would end up with most of the same things, but there would be two or three major empires: The jews, the muslims, and the Roman type reilgon. they would expand and then we would have a stand off like the cold war were no one moved or we were launching the nukes.:cool:

Islam would have never formed without Christianity. The Jews were insignificant during the time of the Romans just as they have been through out most of world history. They would have never formed a great empire of their own.

You're missing the point, of course Jesus wasn't anything divine, supernatural, or otherwise sacred; but the religion that sprouted from him (largely though the efforts of Paul) has had a profound impact on Western culture and even for those of us who are not Christians, the various philosophies formed with Christianity as a base continue to affect us.

Unless you have actually read the book the point I am making is unlikely to be clear. The spoiler was not my opinion, but a line from a particular part of the novel.


Jesus was not a lone individual: instead he was the charismatic leader (or fallguy) of a particular religio-political movement. Assassinating him is likely to cause less change to history than assassinating John the Baptist, for example. Just so long as someone was maneuvered into playing out the prophecies and going to the cross, the actual identity of that individual is largely irrelevant.

It may not have been common in Rome, but various strains of it were already present in various Greek philosophies of the time. That's why it caught on so much in Greece. Some sort of similar philosophy to Christianity could have emerged merely as a synthesis of the various ideas already flitting around at the time. Don't forget that romans were already turning from mainstream roman faith in droves.

Hmm, you may be somewhat right; it seems inevitable that the lower classes would embrace a philosophy/religion that glorified weakness; and the glorification of an afterlife as superior to this life seems to have started to spread since Socrates. But I doubt it could ever have gained the momentum of Christianity since I believe a large part of its successful is the contrast between the loving, merciful God who will grant eternal life in paradise to his followers (who was created by Jesus) and the jealous, intolerance and general darkness of the God of the Jews (incorporated into the Old Testament); which prompted Christians to feel the need to convert others so that they could experience the love of God rather than the wrath of God's apparent alter ego. Also, a synthesis of various ideas would never be able to generate the following of an idealized man. Lets face it; the masses don't do all that well with concepts, which is why they need an anthropomorphic figure to focus their attention on.

Unless you have actually read the book the point I am making is unlikely to be clear. The spoiler was not my opinion, but a line from a particular part of the novel.


Jesus was not a lone individual: instead he was the charismatic leader (or fallguy) of a particular religio-political movement. Assassinating him is likely to cause less change to history than assassinating John the Baptist, for example. Just so long as someone was maneuvered into playing out the prophecies and going to the cross, the actual identity of that individual is largely irrelevant.

In that case, my question becomes how history would be different if this movement never began.

In that case, my question becomes how history would be different if this movement never began.

Seems to me Abraham is the target then.

Why would anyone want to kill me?:(

He kicked over a lantern in a small barn on the outskirts of Rome, and the fire grew into a blaze that burned for several days in spite of the efforts of the Chicago Firefighters.
Then He blamed the whole thing on a cow and ran away.
So I have been hating cows all these years for no reason?

Thank you, H N Fiddlebottoms VIII for openning my eyes to the truth.

Seems to me Abraham is the target then.

Yes, I was thinking that I might need to make a new thread title "What if the Biblical Abraham was never born." The title would also prevent comments about time travel.

supposing that jesus existed. how are you going to find him? what year are you setting the way-back machine to? what town are you going to look in? what criteria are you going to use to decide that this baby is indeed the messiah?

You mean WABAC, right?

And why not just nuke it all? That would work too.

Hmm, you may be somewhat right; it seems inevitable that the lower classes would embrace a philosophy/religion that glorified weakness; and the glorification of an afterlife as superior to this life seems to have started to spread since Socrates. But I doubt it could ever have gained the momentum of Christianity since I believe a large part of its successful is the contrast between the loving, merciful God who will grant eternal life in paradise to his followers (who was created by Jesus) and the jealous, intolerance and general darkness of the God of the Jews (incorporated into the Old Testament); which prompted Christians to feel the need to convert others so that they could experience the love of God rather than the wrath of God's apparent alter ego. Also, a synthesis of various ideas would never be able to generate the following of an idealized man. Lets face it; the masses don't do all that well with concepts, which is why they need an anthropomorphic figure to focus their attention on.

True, however many already had anthropomorphic representations. Mithras, for example. Romans were fascinated with adapting eastern faiths, and effectively that is all Christianity was to begin with (there are actually some rather spooky similarities between the stories of Jesus and Krishna). They could have easily imported some popular eastern philosophy to fill the niche. Zoroastrianism, for example, has many of the qualities that made Christianity popular, and with a radical misinterpretation could have many more.

You mean WABAC, right?

And why not just nuke it all? That would work too.

From orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

So I have been hating cows all these years for no reason?
Oh, no, there are plenty of reasons to hate cows (for instance: That Hardee's Milkshake commercial where the guy is humping a cow). It's just that the one particular reasons isn't true.
Thank you, H N Fiddlebottoms VIII for openning my eyes to the truth.
It has been my pleasure to enlighten yet another young mind as to the true workings of the Omniverse. Maybe tommorow I'll tell you the truth about Luxembourg (Hint: the Grand Duchy has been ruling Europe since WWII)

<sarcasm>
What if you went back in time and stopped you from posting this?
</sarcasm>

Anyways to end all arguments about the possibility of going back in time at all, I suggest you read this on SF Chronophysics (http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html).

We are assuming a type two or type four timeline so the change can be made and the change is not correctend naturally.

And to answer the question, I think that if there was no christianity paganism would rise as the majority, maybe the Roman religion would have remained.

From orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Hahaha!
*FLORT*
That is a VERY fittingly-visceral image. Kudos.

Well I suppose, but I don't really believe that.

So the actually mechanics of going back in time, and killing Jebus is worth arguing about, but the many worlds theory, well...that's just going too far? ;)

Hahaha!
*FLORT*
That is a VERY fittingly-visceral image. Kudos.

Aliens reference.

The Roman Empire would have brought on faster industrialization and today's technology would have been made centuries ago.

Aliens reference.
Yo se'.
I got the view of the hive as soon as you said it, and i knew immediately what you were talking about. Again, i compliment you.

The Roman Empire would have brought on faster industrialization and today's technology would have been made centuries ago.

Rome was already dying when Christianity started. Also, Rome ignored the pure sciences, they would've made about the same amount of progress as the Nazis did without theoretical physics.

Yo se'.
I got the view of the hive as soon as you said it, and i knew immediately what you were talking about. Again, i compliment you.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't catch that it was you who had made the comment. I assumed that it was a 15 year old to whom the film is just another piece of ancient history. 'pologies.

True, however many already had anthropomorphic representations. Mithras, for example. Romans were fascinated with adapting eastern faiths, and effectively that is all Christianity was to begin with (there are actually some rather spooky similarities between the stories of Jesus and Krishna). They could have easily imported some popular eastern philosophy to fill the niche. Zoroastrianism, for example, has many of the qualities that made Christianity popular, and with a radical misinterpretation could have many more.

I'm afraid I am not yet familiar with Mithras. It seems that a variety of properties of Krishna were grafted onto to Jesus (I'm familiar with the similarities); and I suppose the same could be done to another "Jesus" figure but there are enough substantial differences that if the grafting was done differently to a different figure the result could be quite different (for example add Krishna's erotic qualities to a "Jesus" figure and the faith has a very different face that would be greatly preferable to its present form). Zorastrianism is was the dominant religion in Persia during the time; I doubt the ethnocentrism and pride of the Romans would have allowed them to adopt it. Also, the similarites between those two faiths stem from the substantial influence Zorastrianism had on Judaism that were then carried on into Christianity and intensified (principally I'm referring to the idea of a battle between "Good and evil"). Which raises the interesting question of what our present culture would be like if that dualistic quality was never introduced it.
And even if a synergism of the philosophies that bore some resemblance to Christianity were given a figurehead; I doubt any of those philosophies would give this hypothetical faith the drive to convert the rest of the world which is undoubtably one of the most significant components of Christianity.

Maybe Jesus was a time traveler, and that's why he was so confident in knowing what was going to happen, and he's laughing in the future as he comes up with this idea and says, "Ha ha! Gotcha!"

I'm afraid I am not yet familiar with Mithras. It seems that a variety of properties of Krishna were grafted onto to Jesus (I'm familiar with the similarities); and I suppose the same could be done to another "Jesus" figure but there are enough substantial differences that if the grafting was done differently to a different figure the result could be quite different (for example add Krishna's erotic qualities to a "Jesus" figure and the faith has a very different face that would be greatly preferable to its present form). Zorastrianism is was the dominant religion in Persia during the time; I doubt the ethnocentrism and pride of the Romans would have allowed them to adopt it. Also, the similarites between those two faiths stem from the substantial influence Zorastrianism had on Judaism that were then carried on into Christianity and intensified (principally I'm referring to the idea of a battle between "Good and evil"). Which raises the interesting question of what our present culture would be like if that dualistic quality was never introduced it.
And even if a synergism of the philosophies that bore some resemblance to Christianity were given a figurehead; I doubt any of those philosophies would give this hypothetical faith the drive to convert the rest of the world which is undoubtably one of the most significant components of Christianity.

You're right in that Zoroastrianism wouldn't be very likely, given the fact that the Parthians were one of Rome's major enemies, but other eastern religions had great popularity in Rome at the time. Mithras was a sun god whose followers bathed in bull's blood and who was at times worshipped by much of the Roman army. The date of Christmas comes from his birthday, as his worship was a major rival of Christianity far into its early existence. Also, I doubt that Christianity's early success had anything to do with inspiring the common people, many early Christians were relatively wealthy Greeks who would under other circumstances have been very involved in some of the major philosophies of the time.

unless he chooses the wrong year and "jesus" is living in egypt

Well, he could be very unselective about the target area I guess. Kill enough people even in the wrong year and it's not like anyone would ever have heard about him now.

If you went back and killed Jesus then your present self wouldn't know to go back and kill Jesus so you wouldn't go back and kill Jesus.

And from then on it basically goes round in a circle.

sounds like you broke out the back to the future argument..lol

sounds like you broke out the back to the future argument..lol

or all the terminator movies!!

Well, he could be very unselective about the target area I guess. Kill enough people even in the wrong year and it's not like anyone would ever have heard about him now.
im thinking that he's gonna have to hijack a trident submarine instead of just fatboy if he's gonna wipe out that much property. but then he'd have a much bigger problem than just the effects of killing an itinerant street preacher-to-be.

im thinking that he's gonna have to hijack a trident submarine instead of just fatboy if he's gonna wipe out that much property. but then he'd have a much bigger problem than just the effects of killing an itinerant street preacher-to-be.

Maybe. But then the fallout might get him if the fireball doesn't if he just uses fatboy. Heh, imagine if it was a mutant Jesus.

Although more likely than not, he wouldn't survive to be an adult if he was overly mutant-looking.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't catch that it was you who had made the comment. I assumed that it was a 15 year old to whom the film is just another piece of ancient history. 'pologies.
S'aight. No harm, no foul. *nods*

Maybe Jesus was a time traveler, and that's why he was so confident in knowing what was going to happen, and he's laughing in the future as he comes up with this idea and says, "Ha ha! Gotcha!"
Hey hey, sing to me ...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10428302&postcount=31

Maybe. But then the fallout might get him if the fireball doesn't if he just uses fatboy. Heh, imagine if it was a mutant Jesus.

Although more likely than not, he wouldn't survive to be an adult if he was overly mutant-looking.
And the winner of another thread ...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10428314&postcount=33

Unless I'm mistaken this thread is asking a historical "what-if?" question. Anways, here's my take on it: Christianity was one of many somewhat mystical cults emerging in the roman empire. If it hadn't been born, another would've. If said cult didn't emerge in Israel, however, the history of the Jewish race might have been substantially less hazardous.
Exactly. Christianity could exist without Jesus - but it would not exist without Paul.

I would have much rather that our errant time traveler finished the job at Damascus rather than just hitting Saul on the head and hoping for the best.

I'd kill Moses, not Jesus.