NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm 16 right now, and I go to an American high school. Right now, I'm doing really great, I'm enrolled in three honor classes, and one advanced placement class, out of 8 total classes. I'm also getting mostly A's. I don't mean to brag, but that's just the way it is. When I was in elementary school I didn't too that well, moslty because of a lack of incentive, and yet I learned the necessary skills I need to be in all these upper level courses. My question is why do so many people complain about the American education system, and also if the Western European publicly funded schools are any better. If so, why?

P.S. I think how well one does is based mostly on the amount of motivation one has to do well. I learned this from personal experience, when I got off my ass and got down to some serious work when I began high school.

Waaay too rendundant, and a lack of enough balls to tell a kid they're stupid.

Waaay too rendundant, and a lack of enough balls to tell a kid they're stupid.

Some specifics and statistics would be nice.

Some specifics and statistics would be nice.

Ah, sorry, I got nothing...well....except for having 6000-9000 dollars per kid spent here...

The teachers in the US are thick; unlike Europe. Hence their difficulty in mastering complex subject matter, hence the difficulty in teaching it, hence the gap at the post elementary level which you don't see at the elementary level. End of story.

20/20 John Stossel, Had a very interesting and informative special about America's educational system. I watched it and was horrified at where we are and where we are going as a nation in regards to education. Here's the link.....

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

Some specifics and statistics would be nice.
Dude, are you really a student in the American education system?
Maybe it is just my school district, but even in honors' classes we spend a good 25% of the year just reviewing what we did the last year. It is insanely redundant and a waste of time for those of us who can remember the concepts covered.

Here's a radical view, the reason why the US system is in such difficulties is that education has lost value in America. Everyone I have ever talked to from other countries have had the feeling that getting an education was the best way to a good life. Teachers are respected as guardians of children, and parents drive home the lesson at home that education should the the focus of a child's activites.

In America though... How many times have I heard on this board alone, "Those who can't, teach" from Americans?

Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. In other words, America has the schools it deserves.

Some specifics and statistics would be nice.
If you look up the UN OECD PISA survey it gives you some good statistics on the state of education in various countries.

Dude, are you really a student in the American education system?
Maybe it is just my school district, but even in honors' classes we spend a good 25% of the year just reviewing what we did the last year. It is insanely redundant and a waste of time for those of us who can remember the concepts covered.

You're reviewing it for the benefit of the teachers, not the students.

20/20 John Stossel, Had a very interesting and informative special about America's educational system. I watched it and was horrified at where we are and where we are going as a nation in regards to education. Here's the link.....

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338
Not this one again.

Competitiveness. Privatize schooling.

Gahhhhhhh1hhhhhhhh!!!!!

(Oh man, I've completely lost my mind...)

i'm not sure if sweeping generalisations will be of any use here, but it seems to me that a) this might not be the case (stats and comparible figures between "europe's" schooling system (europe is a bunch of different countries you know) and america's would be useful); b) european countries tend to have larger, more socialised governments, hence we may tend to spend more on public education (and subsidising private) or have it as a higher government priority in general; and c) it seems to me the US (federal?) sillabus tends to be geared more towards practical application of knowledge and gearing students up for work, rather than the more academic "intellectual" approach of many more traditionalist european systems (though, at least in the UK, we are being "modernised" more towards the american system...)

this may account for differences, but i can't really say which is "better"

why is it that you believe european education to be better in this way? :confused:

You're reviewing it for the benefit of the teachers, not the students.
Why on earth would I need to review it? I teach up to 5 classes a day, usually twice on the same level, just different periods. I sure as hell don't need the review. I mean I've read The Fall of Freddie the Leaf so many times I could quote it to you.

Not this one again.


What? Was it posted to death before? Sorry, I havent seen it linked here on NS. Not to say that it wasnt...

Why on earth would I need to review it? I teach up to 5 classes a day, usually twice on the same level, just different periods. I sure as hell don't need the review. I mean I've read The Fall of Freddie the Leaf so many times I could quote it to you.

So you consider "The Fall or Freddie the Leaf" to be AP material, or complex subject matter? Could this be the problem with US schools?

At my school, the students complain about how they don't learn anything...

right in the middle of the teacher teaching what they're complaining about not knowing. And when you tell them to pay attention, they stare at you like you're crazy. And that's just the advanced classes. I seriously hope I get into IMSA.

EDIT: And in Advanced Freshman English we read books like Gentlehands and The Pigman. I could read at a Seventh grade level in Kindergarden. In High School we're reading books at a 4th or 5th grade level. As you can tell, my English class bores me greatly.

I think the lack of competition and the apathy towards education are responsible. If we look at Europe, where there are over twenty nations in an area the size of the US constantly competing against (and cooperating with) each other for economic advantages, it is clear that there is far more incentive to maintain educational excellence than there is here.

Simply put, many Americans have this impression that we are invincible and don't need or have to value a solid education; the last major push for academic excellence occured during the early Cold War, when we had to maintain our edge over the Soviets or face annihilation.

Our ultimate victory and existence as the sole superpower have made us apathetic and unwilling to value education, and in a global economy that will result in our downfall unless we start making an effort as a nation again.

See, the US is a very varied place. Our top students (those attending top universities) are among the best students in the world. We are competitive with any other country. We have, however, some of the worst students/schools too. On average, America could do much better. In my area, however, you are looked at poorly if you do not get some kind of post-secondary education (98% of my class went on to a 4 year college, 1% to a technical or 2 year school/jr. college to prepare for college, and 1% to the military.) There are other areas that have few or no high school grads go on to college.

I'm 16 right now, and I go to an American high school. Right now, I'm doing really great, I'm enrolled in three honor classes, and one advanced placement class, out of 8 total classes. I'm also getting mostly A's. I don't mean to brag, but that's just the way it is. When I was in elementary school I didn't too that well, moslty because of a lack of incentive, and yet I learned the necessary skills I need to be in all these upper level courses. My question is why do so many people complain about the American education system, and also if the Western European publicly funded schools are any better. If so, why?

P.S. I think how well one does is based mostly on the amount of motivation one has to do well. I learned this from personal experience, when I got off my ass and got down to some serious work when I began high school.

The problems with the America education system are not associated with the competence of the teacers (at least relative to those to in Europe) but are linked to, among other things,: Redundancy from having to review material after summer break (in Europe there are multiple short breaks instead of one primary big one), the "self-esteem" movement preventing teachers from being able to tell kids they are stupid and thus allowing incompetency to grow with pride, time spent teaching the arts rather than useful skills and knowledge, time spent teaching social skills (something that is done by parents in Europe) rather than teaching legitimate academics, and feminists corrupting/dumbing down math and science to make it easier for women (that is sure to offend many people so I will explain it below).

Prior to the interference of the feminists, math and science in America were largely the same as that in Europe (though likely not quite as good) and like is still the case in Europe boys did better in these subjects than girls. The feminists wouldn't stand for this and had the curriculum changed. Now girls frequently do better in these subjects than boys; it is a point of pride among some feminists (that is just a guess, I don't know if they really feel) that American girls do as well as European girls in these subjects, ignoring the fact that American boys do worse than America girls and European boys do better than European girls; puting American boys far below European boys in math and science.

My teachers are great at not being PC. My English teacher calls people retarded. My Bio teacher talked about every big development in the Dover case. We're moving on to evolution after we finish genetics, which will be fun since we have a kid in my class who got angry when my English teacher told us she hoped our writing style would evolve over the year. A big part of the problem is the students.

What? Was it posted to death before? Sorry, I havent seen it linked here on NS. Not to say that it wasnt...
Syinks posted it twice. The second time it was the result of a long posting battle. :p

The teaching style in the United States is different than in Europe. Different aspects of knowledge are focused on. We don't go as in depth but a broader range of knowledge is touched apon.

Also, the U.S. has a greater percentage of non-english (or whatever your native language is) speaking students than most of Europe.

So you consider "The Fall or Freddie the Leaf" to be AP material, or complex subject matter? Could this be the problem with US schools?
Well, it's advanced level material for the Japanese students I am teaching English to.

The point being that teachers don't need to review the subject as you're suggesting because we see it multiple times a day for years. You see it once.

i'm not sure if sweeping generalisations will be of any use here, but it seems to me that a) this might not be the case (stats and comparible figures between "europe's" schooling system (europe is a bunch of different countries you know) and america's would be useful); b) european countries tend to have larger, more socialised governments, hence we may tend to spend more on public education (and subsidising private) or have it as a higher government priority in general; and c) it seems to me the US (federal?) sillabus tends to be geared more towards practical application of knowledge and gearing students up for work, rather than the more academic "intellectual" approach of many more traditionalist european systems (though, at least in the UK, we are being "modernised" more towards the american system...)

this may account for differences, but i can't really say which is "better"

why is it that you believe european education to be better in this way? :confused:

European education is generally perceived as better because you (the students of the various European countries lumped together in America's collective conciousness) always do better than us in international academic competitions. America does spend more money on education than most European countries, but we don't spend it well so it ends up being of no significance.

Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. In other words, America has the schools it deserves.

Finally, someone who doesn't speak through their asshole. I'm so tired of people on this board who homeschool their children (or want to) bitching about teachers in American schools. Even worse is smart ass arrogant little highschool kids who can't understand that schools need to teach everyone not just the smart kids. Highschool doesn't mean anything in America anymore. You get your fundamentals and you are supposed to move on to higher education. The kids who can't hack it get the shit jobs. If you do well in highschool you move on to college where you can further yourself intellectually as much as you want to. I can recommend some really great books if anyone wants some extra homework because they aren't being challeneged enough...Java or C++ can be a challenging hobby as well.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with American public schools. They are a mess in many places partly because our government is run by people who have never sat in a public classroom in their lives. Maybe you haven't noticed but most politicians have no idea what it is like to be middle class, nevermind poor. The bad teachers are teaching because schools must pick the poorest and most unqualified canidates because obviously the better ones expect more money. Some schools share books. Spending (or lack thereof) is the number one problem facing public schools, almost all other problems are a direct cause of this. This includes really shitty management by the higher ups in the school system because those jobs attract idiots who have never taught and do not care about children or education. This can also be solved by attracting better canidates through higher salaries and thus higher requirements for applicants.

The point being that teachers don't need to review the subject as you're suggesting because we see it multiple times a day for years. You see it once.

And that might be true for ordinary classes, but I would suggest that towards the end of high-school the subject matter for advanced, and honors, classes becomes complex enough that the teachers themselves often have difficulty mastering it, hence the constant need to review.

No-one denies that there is sub-par performance in the american school system, and it's not money that's the problem. I don't imagine - unless you are some type of proponent of eugenics - that you could suggest it is the kids, therefore the general competence of teachers is a likely source. I am just postulating one of the reasons why this could be so.

And why are teachers never suspected of being the cause of this shortfall with Europe anyway? They are like some type of official holy order, always above reproach or suspicion, and for no reason that has ever been fully explained to me.

Yeah, I'm not sure if you guys saw my thread about Spanish. Basically I had an incompetent teacher who knew nothing about Spanish. Thusly I am taking Chinese next year, I hope I actually get a qualified teacher. One time, when I talked to one of my fellow students about our teacher, he said, "Who cares? I'm not going to need this anyway." This is the typical view of education in the U.S., it is really a shame

Oh, it's definately the kids. Most of them care only about instant gratification. For them, if you can't learn it in 2 seconds, it's not worth learning. Teachers are part of the problem, but it's mostly the kids. Trust me, I go to a public school.

And that might be true for ordinary classes, but I would suggest that towards the end of high-school the subject matter for advanced, and honors, classes becomes complex enough that the teachers themselves often have difficulty mastering it, hence the constant need to review.

No-one denies that there is sub-par performance in the american school system, and it's not money that's the problem. I don't imagine - unless you are some type of proponent of eugenics - that you could suggest it is the kids, therefore the general competence of teachers is a likely source. I am just postulating one of the reasons why this could be so.

And why are teachers never suspected of being the cause of this shortfall with Europe anyway? They are like some type of official holy order, always above reproach or suspicion, and for no reason that has ever been fully explained to me.
I would argue that it IS the students. The students don't care, therefore, are not putting in the effort to learn.

Also, and I don't care how complex high school classes can get, teachers must have at least a BA/BS in their field. Teaching AP physics is nothing to a person who has a BS in physics. When you have had atleast four years of the material, plus teach it 1-5 times a day every year, you don't need the review. If anyone does, it is the students (although I argue that even they don't need as much as is given)

I've been in a private school since the 6th grade, and even though we're not very well funded, the teachers aren't payed very much, and we spent almost all of our mercy contributions on a 155,000 dollar football program, we still are on average scoring in like the 90th percentile or something when compared to the rest of the state of Georgia, and to tell you the truth, alot of us really are not increadibly smart or dedicated to school. So I don't know what the problem is with the public school education system in America, but all I know is, it sure looks like there is one, (Yea, Georgia is like 49th in average test scores, but still) and it sounds like it's pretty bad. We just learned Quantum Physics in last semester and im only a junior, apparently, our curriculum is 2 years ahead of the rest of our state, I don't understand how public schools do so much worse at all.....though, I suspect the extreme overpopulation in public schools could have something to do with it.

No-one denies that there is sub-par performance in the american school system, and it's not money that's the problem. I don't imagine - unless you are some type of proponent of eugenics - that you could suggest it is the kids, therefore the general competence of teachers is a likely source. I am just postulating one of the reasons why this could be so.
And your educational background is... what? And why would any teacher wish to take up precious hours reviewing in class what could be done quickly before the classes start. No, we review because launching into classes without a review quickly brings screams of rage from parents. Also, since a portfolio system hasn't caught on yet, there's no other real way of determining what understanding a child actually has from the previous year.

I have suggested that it is not (wholly) the fault of teachers. The problem is the society that has built the schools, determines the curricula, sets the values to be taught, elects the officals in charge of the school system, AND elects the people who provide the moneys and materials for the system.

Schools do not exist in a bubble, the idea that we're imune to the so-called "Real world" (tm) is laughable.

No-one denies that there is sub-par performance in the american school system, and it's not money that's the problem. I don't imagine - unless you are some type of proponent of eugenics - that you could suggest it is the kids, therefore the general competence of teachers is a likely source. I am just postulating one of the reasons why this could be so.


Sigh, I think my posts are invisible. Think of it this way.

John owns a highly successful software company that specializes in writing virus protection software. This is of course a highly dynamic and fast paced industry and so John has the best programmers money can by. As the years go by John decides to save some money by dramatically cutting the frequency in which he used to upgrade the hardware his employees use. To save even more money John doesn't raise his starting salaries for new employees to compete with other companies or inflation. He also skimps on raises for old and trusted employees leading to constant contractual disputes in which John often must be legally forced to cover benefits in already established contracts and almost never approves new benefits. Not surprisingly John's business goes to shit. He then gets angry with his programmers that he hired simply because they would accept his lowball pay rate. Who's fault is this?

Now apply this exact scenerio to public education. The only difference is that the system was never top notch to start with. In Massachusetts we went through a few years in which the state stopped paying staff members of state education institutions certain benefits that were stated in their already approved contracts. The matter took a few years to sort out even though the practice was entirely illegal. In this process many of the best teachers left the state. Now, tell me again why this has nothing to do with money? You get what you pay for; that stands for employee contracts as well.

Oh, it's definately the kids. Most of them care only about instant gratification. For them, if you can't learn it in 2 seconds, it's not worth learning. Teachers are part of the problem, but it's mostly the kids. Trust me, I go to a public school.
It isn't the majority of the kids who wreck the system. It is that 5% of kids who think they are the funniest thing to ever grace the planet and get teachers pissed off, which in turn means students end up doing what I like to call "pissed off work". This is normally reading from the book and answering stupid questions that the retarded book makers thought would require thought to answer. Then the entire class all hate the class, and so they don't take it seriously and try to learn. You see how just 2 idiots per classroom can destroy the entire system? Trust me, I've seen it happen time and time again.
Taking the above situation and assuming the teacher is a saint and doesn't get pissed off, they still have to stop class to tell the disruptors to stfu and then restart what they were talkiing about before the disruption. Then the disruptor strikes again, and again class is stopped so the kid can be shut up.

Both situations have a better answer. START PUNISHING THE IDIOTS WHO FUCK UP THE SYSTEM FOR THE REST OF US! We have gotten too used to, or too acceptant of this behavior. It is a massive problem and needs to be fixed immediately, and asking nicely isn't getting the job done. So to all you class clowns out there reading this STFU IN CLASS AND LET US ALL GET ON WITH OUR LIVES!

I too go to public school every weekday of my miserable life.

Waaay too rendundant, and a lack of enough balls to tell a kid they're stupid.
you dont go to school in south eastern us then


of course thts just my school. because my town is a military town.

Sigh, I think my posts are invisible. Think of it this way.
*LOL* You forgot, Americans hate to think that anything cannot be quickly fixed before the next election cycle.

I've been in a private school since the 6th grade, and even though we're not very well funded, the teachers aren't payed very much, and we spent almost all of our mercy contributions on a 155,000 dollar football program, we still are on average scoring in like the 90th percentile or something when compared to the rest of the state of Georgia, and to tell you the truth, alot of us really are not increadibly smart or dedicated to school. So I don't know what the problem is with the public school education system in America, but all I know is, it sure looks like there is one, (Yea, Georgia is like 49th in average test scores, but still) and it sounds like it's pretty bad. We just learned Quantum Physics in last semester and im only a junior, apparently, our curriculum is 2 years ahead of the rest of our state, I don't understand how public schools do so much worse at all.....though, I suspect the extreme overpopulation in public schools could have something to do with it.

Simple. You pay and public school kids don't. Thus public schools get the kids who don't care or have severe social and mental problems (often from abuse) and there isn't enough funding to seperate these kids from the rest or hire teachers qualified to deal with the learning problems some kids have. If you are stuck in a class bordering on 40 students and six of them require almost exclusive attention you are going to be behind. It comes down to the dollar and the correct use of it. In the case of Georgia and other extreme low end states they often cannot afford the materials needed either.

I wish I went to a school where the majority cared. I seriously want to get into IMSA, normal public schools suck.

One of the biggest problems in my region of the US is the lack of emphasis on math education. This is particularly troubling because the regional economy is very heavy on industrial/electrical engineering and manufacturing of complex equipment and machinery; in fact, the largest school in Ohio (Mentor High School) doesn't even offer an AP Calculus BC class because they don't start the Calculus track early enough.

Most students who graduate do not have a basic comprehension of math more advanced than second-year algebra. What's even worse is that only 3 years are required.

*LOL* You forgot, Americans hate to think that anything cannot be quickly fixed before the next election cycle.

Haha I think you made a slight grammatical error in your post. Let me fix it for you. I think what you meant to say was: *LOL*You forgot, Americans hate to think.
You may have hit some erroneous keys at the end there.

One of the biggest problems in my region of the US is the lack of emphasis on math education. This is particularly troubling because the regional economy is very heavy on industrial/electrical engineering and manufacturing of complex equipment and machinery; in fact, the largest school in Ohio (Mentor High School) doesn't even offer an AP Calculus BC class because they don't start the Calculus track early enough.

Most students who graduate do not have a basic comprehension of math more advanced than second-year algebra. What's even worse is that only 3 years are required.

...why would a janitor need more than three years of advanced math? Highschool isn't meant to turn out mathematicians.

...why would a janitor need more than three years of advanced math? Highschool isn't meant to turn out mathematicians.

Most students in Ohio go on to college without that knowledge and as a result that is causing a serious problem in Ohio with a brain drain; companies don't want to invest here because many graduates are so poorly educated in math, and as a result the students who are well educated leave because there is little opportunity for them, which makes the state even less attractive, and so on.

Combine this with ass-backward means of funding and educational standards, and it's not a surprise.

I go to a tiny High School(800 people from a few towns), and even we have Calculus. It's the advanced math class for Seniors, but we have it.

Yes, but 98% of the students there go on to college...that's the problem. And they simply don't know what they are doing as a result.

98%? Damn that must be a pretty nice district. A shame that they don't have an AP program or whatever the equivilent there would be but it would only set them back a class or so at most at a University.

The problem with the American educational system is that they've thrown so much bullshit into it that the kids and parents have to keep track of, that its taken away the ability of those in the system to actually focus.

Here in America, if you have obvious abilities in a particular field (i.e.; art, carpentry, mathematics, etc.) you still have to take a bunch of other crap to become "a well-rounded individual." These extra classes, that they say must be taken to graduate, do little more than suck more money out of people and chain an anchor to their ability to become successful quicker.

There are so many people out there that could be painting the next Mona Lisa or creating the cure for AIDS so much more quickly if they weren't burdened with all the extra crap that comes along with getting the appropriate degree(s).

:cool:

98%? Damn that must be a pretty nice district. A shame that they don't have an AP program or whatever the equivilent there would be but it would only set them back a class or so at most at a University.

Switch that to 89%. I made a typo.

That number does include several computer programming tracks and other programs; the amount of students that go on to a four-year university is probably closer to 70-75%. Still very high, but that's to be expected from such a large and affluent district. However, compared to other districts, our math scores are rather low.

Change AIDs to cancer and you're right. We might have a cure for AIDs.
http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_3482712

141 page PISA Report from 2002 (pdf). Should tell you a lot of the info you're looking for.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2003/2003026.pdf

Here's a radical view, the reason why the US system is in such difficulties is that education has lost value in America. Everyone I have ever talked to from other countries have had the feeling that getting an education was the best way to a good life. Teachers are respected as guardians of children, and parents drive home the lesson at home that education should the the focus of a child's activites.

In America though... How many times have I heard on this board alone, "Those who can't, teach" from Americans?

Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. In other words, America has the schools it deserves.

Well, in Europe, kids have to pass an exam to get into high school, those who fail go to trade school, taking out a lot of the lower end kids who would bring down scores. Although I would be for experimenting with privatizing education, similar to the way they do colleges and Universities. That way teachers have incentive to do better, because they get paid on ability, not how many years they have taught.

The problem with the American educational system is that they've thrown so much bullshit into it that the kids and parents have to keep track of, that its taken away the ability of those in the system to actually focus.

Here in America, if you have obvious abilities in a particular field (i.e.; art, carpentry, mathematics, etc.) you still have to take a bunch of other crap to become "a well-rounded individual." These extra classes, that they say must be taken to graduate, do little more than suck more money out of people and chain an anchor to their ability to become successful quicker.

There are so many people out there that could be painting the next Mona Lisa or creating the cure for AIDS so much more quickly if they weren't burdened with all the extra crap that comes along with getting the appropriate degree(s).

:cool:


Oh the horror! I can't believe schools are actually making students *gasp* expand themselves.

What you want is not an education, it's training.

Well, in Europe, kids have to pass an exam to get into high school, those who fail go to trade school, taking out a lot of the lower end kids who would bring down scores.
Not everywhere though - and really it's not "trade school", it's just a school that doesn't go as long and therefore doesn't cover as much advanced material. Some offer more practical subjects, but many don't.

I know that in European comparison, Germany isn't that great. They usually blame much of it on the inability of state- and federal government to agree on anything.

i'm not sure if sweeping generalisations will be of any use here, but it seems to me that a) this might not be the case (stats and comparible figures between "europe's" schooling system (europe is a bunch of different countries you know) and america's would be useful); b) european countries tend to have larger, more socialised governments, hence we may tend to spend more on public education (and subsidising private) or have it as a higher government priority in general; and c) it seems to me the US (federal?) sillabus tends to be geared more towards practical application of knowledge and gearing students up for work, rather than the more academic "intellectual" approach of many more traditionalist european systems (though, at least in the UK, we are being "modernised" more towards the american system...)

this may account for differences, but i can't really say which is "better"

why is it that you believe european education to be better in this way? :confused:

Because I keep on hearing about the "shocking" state of American public schools.

Oh honestly, since when have American schools had a point behind them? Mostly we're there for the social activity.

Anyway, I don't really learn from school too much. Even in all Honors (I can't take AP classes yet) we're reviewing stuff from last year. I usually just do things outside of class; reading, writing, obscure science projects involving weathering, rocks, and ants...

You can't really depend on the school system here. And privatizing schools, in my opinion, is just really stupid. Where would the fun go?

Trade school.

"Why is education in Europe better than in America?"

01. Corporal Punishment
02. Uniforms
03. Not co-ed
04. There's nothing better to do 'cause it's raining
05. In America you can survive without it

I'm 16 right now, and I go to an American high school. Right now, I'm doing really great, I'm enrolled in three honor classes, and one advanced placement class, out of 8 total classes. I'm also getting mostly A's. I don't mean to brag, but that's just the way it is. When I was in elementary school I didn't too that well, moslty because of a lack of incentive, and yet I learned the necessary skills I need to be in all these upper level courses. My question is why do so many people complain about the American education system, and also if the Western European publicly funded schools are any better. If so, why?

P.S. I think how well one does is based mostly on the amount of motivation one has to do well. I learned this from personal experience, when I got off my ass and got down to some serious work when I began high school.

The answer to your question is first that most people don't seem to understand what the education system is supposed to do, and second that they don't understand that Western European schools are built to do something completely different. Moreover, they base their analysis on test scores that are not true representations of Americans achievement.

Basically, in America, we train our kids in a wide variety of fields, favoring reasonable knowledge of a wide variety of fields over specialized knowledge in anything (we save that for universities). We do this because our interest has never really been about turning out first-rate engineers or lawyers or doctors, although we do turn them out in great numbers. Rather, our emphasis was always on creating knowledgeable human beings, in the belief that knowledge was an unmitigated good for any human being to have, and secondly that such generalized knowledge would make that person a better citizen: it's not as easy to bullshit a voter about coal-mining practices, for instance, if he knows something about geography and sediment and science and math than if he only knows a crapload about one of those topics. Moreover, giving kids a good taste of a wide variety of subjects better allows them to choose what they love and are good at in a free market.

By contrast, the European or East Asian model heavily favors direct training in one exclusive trade or specialty. The emphasis is less on creating a first-rate human being, and more on creating someone who can fulfill the assigned role that the government, bureaucracy, or technocrat deems important to the economy.

This essentially is at the heart of why American students do more poorly than other nations at standardized tests: they focus on nothing and go for wide-based experience and generality, while students in South Korea, for instance, are usually either put on a track very early in a discipline they show aptitude for, or they are shunted aside. The US is the only nation in the world that ensures that all its citizens, regardless of aptitude or capability (Korea, for instance, would never commit the resources America does to special ed) has a minimum 12 years of quality education. Every other nation usually offers, at best 10, and more only for the top ten percent of students. Hence, they usually beat us in standardized tests, but not because they have a superior system of education. Rather, it is for the same reason that a test group composed of my high school debate team would beat the hell out of the national average as well: we have an unfair selection bias in favor of highly-skilled students.

Even further, the education system in other countries haven't had to cope with the integration of massive amounts of uncounted and undereducated citizens into the mix like we have with our African-American community. The fact that today we have test scores on par with test scores in the 1960's when blacks were excluded from consideration is in my mind a significant achievement, not a sign of stagnation.

Oh the horror! I can't believe schools are actually making students *gasp* expand themselves.

What you want is not an education, it's training.
If they're smart enough, and determined enough to go through the rigors of being the best at what they do, then chances are they're smart enough, and determined enough to expand their own horizons without having to pay for it out of pocket.

Put some faith in these young people for crying out loud.

:cool:

01. Corporal Punishment
Excuse me??!?!?!

Excuse me??!?!?!

Sick joke, I know. *laughs up sleeve* Seriously though, I think it's the uniforms. And the rain.

As a highschooler, I have to say I would love having corporal punishment.
We have this lovely courtyard thats PERFECT for the Stocks or a whipping post, or perhaps a gibbet.
All schools should have gibbets ;)

-snip-
Very well said.

If they're smart enough, and determined enough to go through the rigors of being the best at what they do, then chances are they're smart enough, and determined enough to expand their own horizons without having to pay for it out of pocket.

Put some faith in these young people for crying out loud.

:cool:

The point is, everyone needs to expand themselves, not just those who are "smart enough, and determined enough to go through the rigors of being the best at what they do." For some people school is the only chance they get to try new things.

Here's a radical view, the reason why the US system is in such difficulties is that education has lost value in America. Everyone I have ever talked to from other countries have had the feeling that getting an education was the best way to a good life. Teachers are respected as guardians of children, and parents drive home the lesson at home that education should the the focus of a child's activites.

In America though... How many times have I heard on this board alone, "Those who can't, teach" from Americans?

Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. In other words, America has the schools it deserves.

Hit the nail right on the head (given that my significant other is a school teacher)...

US school teachers are paid horribly... Education is not all that valued, even when it seems to be, it's the "appearance" of education rather than actual learning which is important to the average parent (how many times does my wife have to deal with parents who hawk upon her for their child to get an "A" merely because it will boost their self-esteem and allow them to put "My Kid is an Honor Roll Student at (insert school here)" on their car's bumper, than for their kid to pass through more study? We're a marketers country, where appearance is everything, and reality does not matter.

The best thing about European schools compared to the American ones is that Americans are an absolute rarerity in European classrooms.

The point is, everyone needs to expand themselves, not just those who are "smart enough, and determined enough to go through the rigors of being the best at what they do." For some people school is the only chance they get to try new things.
That has got to be one of the greatest bullshit statements I have ever heard. Everyone, barring those with severe mental retardation, has the opportunity to try new things, expand their horizons, every single day of their lives, period.

Feel free to prove me wrong. Look at someone like Professor Stephen Hawking and try to tell me that the statement you made here can hold water in any way. There are also many instances of geniuses throughout history that didn't complete their basic schooling and went on to be highly respected in a particular field and as a person. "School is their only chance." Give me a friggin' break. Ever heard of a "library?"

:cool:

The best thing about European schools compared to the American ones is that Americans are an absolute rarerity in European classrooms.

Amen

Well, in Europe, kids have to pass an exam to get into high school, those who fail go to trade school, taking out a lot of the lower end kids who would bring down scores. Although I would be for experimenting with privatizing education, similar to the way they do colleges and Universities. That way teachers have incentive to do better, because they get paid on ability, not how many years they have taught.

I dont know where in Europe you are talking about, but that is not the case in Britain. In Britain the education system looks like this

Pre-school
Primary school (ages 4-11)
Compulsery education begins
Reception to Year 6
Secondary school(ages 12-16)
Year 7 to Year 11
End qualification = General Certificate of Secondary Education GCSE
GCSE based on in class coursework and exams
GCSE work over years 10-11
Compulsery education ends
At three ocations during Primary and secondary education SAT tests are conducted (Standard assesment test) to determine progression of learning (not used to deterimine effort/achievement) cover maths, english and science
College/Sixth form (ages 16-18 in most cases)
Year 12 to Year 13
Normally reuqires 3-5 GCSE's of grade A* - C to enter
Year 12 end qualification - Advanced Subsiduary (AS level)
Half of year 13 end qualification
Year 13 end qualification - Advanced level (A level)

Considering that german students pay 1/24th what I do for college tuition and they get the same rate of education (maybe better)...

Considering that german students pay 1/24th what I do for college tuition and they get the same rate of education (maybe better)...
What are you paying?

What are you paying?

12,000$ and it's about to go up to 14,000 next year.

The orginal tuition is 35k a year but I got some scholarships and grants.

12,000$ and it's about to go up to 14,000 next year.

The orginal tuition is 35k a year but I got some scholarships and grants.
Then they pay roughly 1/12th. Of what your paying. Cause unless I'm misinformed in Germany they roughly pay 1000 Euro's a year. (Uni's) Convert that to dollar and.....

Then they pay roughly 1/12th. Of what your paying. Cause unless I'm misinformed in Germany they roughly pay 1000 Euro's a year. (Uni's) Convert that to dollar and.....

My german professor told us they pay 500$ (converted?) at our partner school in Munchien(sp?). Either way it's pretty ridiculous how much we pay, that and I was also denied federal assistance because my parents combined make around 65k a year. We also have to support my older brother in college as well. *sigh*

My german professor told us they pay 500$ (converted?) at our partner school in Munchien(sp?). Either way it's pretty ridiculous how much we pay, that and I was also denied federal assistance because my parents combined make around 65k a year. We also have to support my older brother in college as well. *sigh*
500 Euros for a semester. Which is half a year. There was a huge upheavel about that. Because it used to be free. But free was no longer payabel.

500 Euros for a semester. Which is half a year. There was a huge upheavel about that. Because it used to be free. But free was no longer payabel.

I heard, but if they want we can trade tuition fees :D

I heard, but if they want we can trade tuition fees :D
They have had a fit over a measly 1000 a year. Imagine what would happen if they did trade. :eek:

Here's another example. We had 3rd bomb threat in 3 weeks at my school today.

Considering that in my State, it has free education for all from Primary (Elementary) level to University (third level), can't really complain.

Although, one thing that constantly confuses me is the American University style of well, non-objectivity from their Professors and Lecturers. Its quite shocking really at the whole 'Right'/'Left' divide coming into the lecture hall, and engraining itself there. :(

This is going to be complete anecdotal evidence, but I was comparing school times with and American friend of mine, and found while they had 6 lessons a day to my 5, I had about a month more school time than them not counting national holiday (of which Britain has relatively few). So simple answer, shorten the holidays and give the kids more time in school to learn. Put it down to 5 lessons if you think they can't handle too many subjects in one day, but make them learn for more weeks a year.

Sick joke, I know. *laughs up sleeve* Seriously though, I think it's the uniforms. And the rain.
Can't answer for the rain, but I don't think uniforms make that much of a difference. The school I teach at has uniforms (as all Japanese schools do) and I still have to deal with hellions. The only thing that hasn't happened is a school shooting, and that's probably more due to it's next to impossible to get a gun in Japan than anything else.

20/20 John Stossel, Had a very interesting and informative special about America's educational system. I watched it and was horrified at where we are and where we are going as a nation in regards to education. Here's the link.....

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

This one is wise. Listen to him.

Here's a radical view, the reason why the US system is in such difficulties is that education has lost value in America. Everyone I have ever talked to from other countries have had the feeling that getting an education was the best way to a good life. Teachers are respected as guardians of children, and parents drive home the lesson at home that education should the the focus of a child's activites.

In America though... How many times have I heard on this board alone, "Those who can't, teach" from Americans?

Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. In other words, America has the schools it deserves.
Good post.

b) european countries tend to have larger, more socialised governments, hence we may tend to spend more on public education (and subsidising private) or have it as a higher government priority in general
I doubt it. A lot of money is spent on the US education system. I think that the money is just better spent in Europe, whereas in the US it is wasted on crap.

Our ultimate victory and existence as the sole superpower have made us apathetic and unwilling to value education
The new Rome, isn't it?

Prior to the interference of the feminists, math and science in America were largely the same as that in Europe (though likely not quite as good) and like is still the case in Europe boys did better in these subjects than girls. The feminists wouldn't stand for this and had the curriculum changed. Now girls frequently do better in these subjects than boys; it is a point of pride among some feminists (that is just a guess, I don't know if they really feel) that American girls do as well as European girls in these subjects, ignoring the fact that American boys do worse than America girls and European boys do better than European girls; puting American boys far below European boys in math and science.
The first half of your post was fine but this crap. In Ireland, maths and science are as hard as ever, yet Euro-girls are still doing just as well as the guys.