NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm sure a poll on this guy has already been done some time ago, but what the hell, I'm bored.

Do you think Che Guevara was a hero, or a mass murderer, no better than Stalin? I've always liked the guy (Che, that is), but just today I found out that my best friend can't stand the guy. He called him a fascist and a hypocrite. Harsh words from a guy whose been brainwashed by the media and believes everything he reads on the internet.....

Anyway, I'm just wondering what you guys think of Che? Hero? Murder? Both?
I like the guy, I just don't like how middle-class kids are wearing a shirt with his face plastered on it, yet they have no idea who the hell he is.

*poll coming*

Che? Well.. As a person, not so nice.. But what he now stands for.. Good.

I like the guy, I just don't like how middle-class kids are wearing a shirt with his face plastered on it, yet they have no idea who the hell he is.


Agreed

Pope; Catholic?

Hero? Of course. I'd follow him.

http://havanajournal.com/images/uploads/che_guevara1.jpg

Not to mention sexy.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara was one of many Latin American fighters for social justice, and he died for the cause. In this sense he was a hero. Like most of those in the middle-class guerrilla movement with which he was associated, he was very ineffectual, except perhaps in the power of his example, currently being shamefully exploited by the institutions Guevara fought against throughout his life. It is quite possible that he engaged in some of the authoritarian excesses of the post-revolutionary Cuban government.

People like Augusto Sandino, who led the resistance that expelled the United States Marines from Nicaragua in the late 1920s and early 1930s, and Salvador Allende, who while eventually being deposed, nevertheless actually managed to take power, are figures who should probably be honored just as much as Che Guevara is, if not more. Perhaps the reason they are not is precisely that their actions represented more of a threat.

Don Quixote

Che Guerrero, socialist, please don't mix up socialism and fascism please. Fascism is right-wing, socialism is left-wing.

Now he was from a rich upper class in Argentina, but he could not understand why the poor lower classes had to suffer. He took up the cause to fight for equality, he went and assisted Fidel Castro in Cuba, and it is claimed, entirely possible that in his time of control of an important city he executed numerous capitalists, many by his own hand.

Decided to continue the revolution in Bolivia, was captured and had his hands chopped off before he was executed.

He was finally sent back to Cuba and was burried in full military honours.

I hope that Fascist option is a joke?. Che was a great man. End of story.

I like the guy, I just don't like how middle-class kids are wearing a shirt with his face plastered on it, yet they have no idea who the hell he is.


So true, I wore the shirt to school once, and a teacher asks me "Do you even know who he is?"

I tell him a brief bio, how I visted the museum in Cuba, and bought the shirt there.

The guy shut up


Hes probably the most famous of my countrymen, after Maradona



People like Augusto Sandino, who led the resistance that expelled the United States Marines from Nicaragua in the late 1920s and early 1930s, and Salvador Allende, who while eventually being deposed, nevertheless actually managed to take power, are figures who should probably be honored just as much as Che Guevara is, if not more. Perhaps the reason they are not is precisely that their actions represented more of a threat.


They also dont have their faces plastered on stuff.

They also dont have their faces plastered on stuff.

Hey ...

I'd wear Cesar on a shirt.

http://www.williamgbecker.com/sandino.jpg

Awesome.

They also dont have their faces plastered on stuff.

Not entirely true. Sandino has his face plastered onto my desktop, and lots of FSLN sympathizers probably plaster him onto other things.

Che Guerrero, socialist, please don't mix up socialism and fascism please. Fascism is right-wing, socialism is left-wing.


That can be debated. A fascist is someone who forces their beliefs on you (but I'm sure everyone has their own definition). Fascism doesn't always mean right-winged, niether does socialism. Do you consider the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) a socialist state? Please remember that.

They also dont have their faces plastered on stuff.

okay,

a) I have a shirt with Sandino on it, and my desktop background is a picture of a statue of him that I took when I went to Nicaragua.

and b) why did you quote me on something I didn't say? Not too advanced on internet code, eh?

okay,

a) I have a shirt with Sandino on it, and my desktop background is a picture of a statue of him that I took when I went to Nicaragua.

and b) why did you quote me on something I didn't say? Not too advanced on internet code, eh?
ooooooooooooooops

i shall edit that, im sorry, im a nub when it comes to code

Not entirely true. Sandino has his face plastered onto my desktop, and lots of FSLN sympathizers probably plaster him onto other things.

well, i mean, his face isent plastered all over the place, not as much as Che, and your desktop, well, that dosent equal the side of a building

(resists impulse to lambaste another dead communist)

Because I completely disagree with Communism, I cannot endorse Che. That's about the nicest thing I can say. hehe

Well, honestly Americans who answer this with a definate are buying into a bunch of bullshit. I can't really say either way for sure because anything associated with Cuba is tainted heavily by my government's stance, deserved or not. I imagine this works in the inverse for Cuba and other countries that support her.

I'll give my general impressions from what I've managed to learn. There doesn't seem to be any real evidence that Che actually was successful himself in any of his military endevours but the effort was there. It seems fairly reasonable to assume he did exterminate at least a few political enemies once he gained power and this can be seen as a negative or positive depending on your stance and devotion to his ideals. So as a commander it doesn't seem like there is really any solid evidence that I have come across to attest to any real effectiveness.

As an intellectual and symbol (which is what he became) he is a true revolutionary. Whether you agree with his vision for the world or not it must be conceded that he was passionately devoted to the oppressed people he came across. He was a man who was willing to actually do something about the problems he saw in the world. So, in the very least that is admirable as far as I am concerned.

That can be debated. A fascist is someone who forces their beliefs on you (but I'm sure everyone has their own definition). Fascism doesn't always mean right-winged, niether does socialism. Do you consider the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) a socialist state? Please remember that.

Lenin and the goal of the U.S.S.R was socialism. However, with Stalin and other leaders you can debate if they were truly socialist. However in name and on paper they were suppose to be left-wing.

That can be debated. A fascist is someone who forces their beliefs on you (but I'm sure everyone has their own definition). Fascism doesn't always mean right-winged, niether does socialism. Do you consider the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) a socialist state? Please remember that.
Are you jokin? Forcing your beliefs on someone is a fascist thing to do, but because you force your beliefs on someone doesnt make you fascist + Che never forced his beliefs on anyone. USSR was a communist totalitarian state not socialist r facist.

Fascism is a state of government, like capitalist etc. Its not a frame of mind, so yes it does always mean right winged

It's like all personality cults; he's not as awesome as his supporters will tell you, and he's not as evil as his detractors would like you to think.

He's just another revolutionary, who may have had maoist tendencies. But he was good looking and died young. So we exagerate his importance. It's not like the revolution in Cuba wouldn't have happened without him.

Hero? Of course. I'd follow him.

You, my friend, have serious fucking issues if you'd follow Che Guevera, but you also speak out firmly against torture.

Che was notorious as an expert in torture, and was known to use various tortue techniques that, by your own admitted standards, are deplorable, inhumane, and patently against the Declaration of Human Rights.

If you want to be taken seriously, try to stick to the ideals you claim to champion.

That can be debated. A fascist is someone who forces their beliefs on you (but I'm sure everyone has their own definition). Fascism doesn't always mean right-winged, niether does socialism. Do you consider the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) a socialist state? Please remember that.

Yes I would consider the USSR a socialist state by the most literal definition of the term socialism. It is all of the mixed economies of Europe that misuse the term socialism. But of course that is what most people now call socialism and most people think communism when they think of the USSR even though there has never been a true communist country.

That can be debated. A fascist is someone who forces their beliefs on you (but I'm sure everyone has their own definition). Fascism doesn't always mean right-winged, niether does socialism. Do you consider the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) a socialist state? Please remember that.

Fascism is a movement of the lower middle class, principally, aiming at restoring a country seen as degrading to former heights through militant nationalism and scapegoating of vulnerable populations. It is right-wing in that it is totally opposed to typical left-wing ideologies, for two reasons:

1. Socialism and Communism tend to have an internationalist and egalitarian tendency to them, and the ideology that "all humans are equal" and "all workers have the same interests" is antithetical to an ideology that divides people based on nationality and race.

2. Socialism and Communism emphasize differences of class, and see class struggle as the proper course of action for the working class. Fascism emphasizes differences of nationality, and thinks that the particular nationality it reveres should be united in pursuit of nationalist goals.

Economic reform does tend to occur under Fascism, sometimes incorporating elements of left-wing ideology into it, but it usually is purely reformist, aiming at producing a sort of family-like hierarchical solidarity rather than at expropriating the expropriators. It always, for obvious reasons, excludes those not members of the privileged nationality.

A case today with several of the essential features of Fascism, but without many of the important elements in the earlier cases, is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.

The USSR was neither socialist nor fascist, it was state monopoly capitalist.

Edit: I should add to my earlier elaboration on Fascism's opposition to left-wing ideologies the fact that Fascism sees itself as reactionary and illiberal, returning to past glory rather than future hope, while Communism and Socialism embrace liberalism, rationality, and progress, believing that they will carry them to their ultimate resolution.

well, i mean, his face isent plastered all over the place, not as much as Che, and your desktop, well, that dosent equal the side of a building

My comment was tongue-in-cheek. The FSLN and their supporters do invoke him a lot, though, for obvious reasons, and while here in North America almost no one even knows who he is, it is probably different elsewhere.

My comment was tongue-in-cheek. The FSLN and their supporters do invoke him a lot, though, for obvious reasons, and while here in North America almost no one even knows who he is, it is probably different elsewhere.
Exactly, its because his picture has become almost the international sign for socialism. Easily recognisable, simple and a good pic. I live in a country rich in socialist heroes, but Che used nearly more than them as it is the easiest to recognise. Kinda like what the American and British flags are to imperialism and retarded occupations :)

Fascism is a movement of the lower middle class, principally, aiming at restoring a country seen as degrading to former heights through militant nationalism and scapegoating of vulnerable populations. It is right-wing in that it is totally opposed to typical left-wing ideologies, for two reasons:

::snip::


1. a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

It is simply an authoritarian dictatorship. The other parts are just what commonly happens in such situations in order to maintain the system. "Movement of the lower middle" blah blah all that crap is just added on crap that may or may not be true. Fascism has a pretty simple definition.

If you want to be taken seriously, try to stick to the ideals you claim to champion.

If you want to be taken seriously, try to provide scholarly sources for your claims. Be warned: .com is not scholarly.

Well, returning to Che, I think he was an outstanding man and a very clever one. He is and will be a model for his ideals.

Patria o Muerte, ¡Venceremos!

1. a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

By which token pretty much every modern autocratic regime from Ferdinand and Isabella to Pinochet and Karimov could be called "Fascist."

Fascism is a particular political phenomenon that arose in Europe after World War I, and to make it meaningless in that way ignores the insight that can be garnered from it.

Exactly, its because his picture has become almost the international sign for socialism. Easily recognisable, simple and a good pic. I live in a country rich in socialist heroes, but Che used nearly more than them as it is the easiest to recognise. Kinda like what the American and British flags are to imperialism and retarded occupations :)

I was talking about Sandino, not Che.

I was talking about Sandino, not Che.
oh, sorry. Still my point is valid.

If you want to be taken seriously, try to provide scholarly sources for your claims. Be warned: .com is not scholarly.
OK, so you want me to show you a source for my claims over the internet, WITHOUT using the internet?

Would you like me to mail you a book? How about if I get an author to come to your house and explain it to you? Actually, I noticed you said ".com" So can I show you a source with a .gov or .org address?

Your looking very kneejerk and very desperate right now. :p


By the way, consider me warned! *shakes in fear* :rolleyes:

The problem with us westerners is that we assume that because Cuba lives in poverty compared to our standards and because they're forced to behave a certain way, that communism doesn't work. We also assume that because Che Guevera killed many, many people, that he was not a hero but that he was a mass murderer. This, if you'll excuse me, is bullshit. Communism works, it's just a lot different than democracy, and in fact, works even better. Che Guevera, being a communist, is assumed to be a horrible person, on top of the fact that he killed people. But really... when you look at the people in Cuba, there are a lot of armed people shooting others. These people need to be stopped. Also, during the time of Che, there were a lot of people trying to spread the corruption of capitalism, as well as many American spies. These people need to be stopped. And what better way to do it than killing them? The Americans can't admit to having spies in foreign countries, because that would start something they wouldn't want to get themselves into, ie mass protests and civil revolts. So Che did his country a good deed. And because his actions negatively affected the "greatest country in the world," he's looked down upon by media-influenced flocks of sheep. So where do I fall in? I say Che Guevera is one of the greatest people to ever walk the earth. And if you can't see him for what he really is, you are a blind man, and someone needs to pry open your eyelids.

Snip
*falls down laughing*

Communism works, it's just a lot different than democracy, and in fact, works even better.

I'm sorry I just stopped reading after that.

*falls down laughing*

*joins in*

Are you jokin? Forcing your beliefs on someone is a fascist thing to do, but because you force your beliefs on someone doesnt make you fascist + Che never forced his beliefs on anyone.

That's your opinion, and I agree, to a point. But the fact is some people believe Che was a fascist, so I made it an option.

Communism works, it's just a lot different than democracy, and in fact, works even better.

You are aware that Cuba doesn't even call itself Communist?

I don't know for sure. But you know what annoys me? Those Che Guevara shirts. I'm sure he'd be angry to lean his face had become a whole industry marketing in large part to rich Americans. That's why I bought a parody shirt (http://www.hottopic.com/store/product.asp?LS=0&ITEM=274457)...that and the fact that it looks "freakin sweet"!:D

*joins in*
*joins in and goes into seizure*

I don't know for sure. But you know what annoys me? Those Che Guevara shirts. I'm sure he'd be angry to lean his face had become a whole industry marketing in large part to rich Americans. That's why I bought a parody shirt (http://www.hottopic.com/store/product.asp?LS=0&ITEM=274457)...that and the fact that it looks "freakin sweet"!:D
NICE. Gotta get me one of those!

That should be Stewie.


And seeing all those stupid kids with a $45 t-shirt with the picture of a failure on it makes me feel very secure in capitalism.

What happned? Couldn't get a nice shot of Bob Uecker?

If you want to be taken seriously, try to provide scholarly sources for your claims. Be warned: .com is not scholarly.
Provide scholarly sources for yours as well, hmm.

Che was, as is any may who forces his ideas on another at the barrel of a gun, a terrible human being and hardly a revolutionary. At best, he was as misguided as a social conservative of any stripe and at worst, a butcher. His contributions to any cause are negligible, his current state as idol, disgusting.

For an example of a true revolutionary, please see Thomas Paine. He was at least incredibly successful in his endeavors.

I think he was a good guy. Did you watch the movie about his trip with a friend on the motorbike?

Anyways, he thought he was doing the right thing, and he's an example of someone who could have had everything not being selfish. So kudos for that.

Not so good obviously is his unwavering commitment to a fairly aggressive idea of revolution, which came out in his treatment of dissidents once they had won power in Cuba.

So I choose the "good guy who didn't know what he was doing"-option, although with qualifications.

i'm more of a durruti fan myself.




http://www.akpress.org/images/cms/561_popup.jpg

A murderer

Hero? Of course. I'd follow him.

http://havanajournal.com/images/uploads/che_guevara1.jpg

Not to mention sexy.
Too bad he favoured cigars instead of pipes.

He might've conquered the world if he'd smoked pipes.

Vote hero, though part of me wonders what on earth a severe asthmatic was doing smoking cigars.

I hesitate to buy into this debate, but ... of course communism doesn't work for everyone, but neither does capitalism as it is in the US. I'd rather the government forbid me to buy trappings of wealth than cheerfully allow me to die if for whatever reason I lose health insurance (which so often happens, ironically, because people get sick and lose their jobs...).

Point is, no system's perfect.

OK, so you want me to show you a source for my claims over the internet, WITHOUT using the internet?

No ... give me a scholarly source. I have access to libraries, you know.

Desperate? Hardly. I am asking you to back up your claim in a scholarly fashion. If you can't, if all you have is conjecture, then say so. There's no shame in it.

Provide scholarly sources for yours as well, hmm.


You want a scholarly source on my opinion?

What an odd thing to ask for.

Come on..how can you hate THIS man...y'all are just capitalist imperialist running dogs..:p
http://www.ilcircolino.it/che/foto/pp_8gr.jpg
http://havanajournal.com/images/uploads/che-guevara-2.jpg

Seriously, for people who are suffering under mercantilism and feudalism, communism does look like a better option.

You want a scholarly source on my opinion?

What an odd thing to ask for.
WTF?
You asked for one first. Just cutting through the bullshit. Follow your own standards, all I’m asking.

I don’t make requests for “scholarly sources” because I myself do not have access to any when on NS nor do I trust “scholarly sources,” but if you're going to make that requite of someone, you better be prepared to follow through yourself.

And as long as we're putting up picks,
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/model-commies-LE375.jpg

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-checap-green.jpg

A fascist is someone who forces their beliefs on you

only if we reduce the term to a meaningless term of abuse. but you don't want to do that, cause that's stupid.

WTF?
You asked for one first. Just cutting through the bullshit. Follow your own standards, all I’m asking.

But I never stated any "facts". I said I'd follow him [Che]. Nothing scholarly about it. It's my opinion.

He said:

Che was notorious as an expert in torture, and was known to use various tortue techniques that, by your own admitted standards, are deplorable, inhumane, and patently against the Declaration of Human Rights.

That requires sources to back it up. He makes an allegation. I did not.

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-checap-green.jpg

Incidently, that's a hilarious shirt. :D

he is what every good commie should be.

he is what every good commie should be.

Argentine?

Cuban?

dead

dead

Ass.

Ass.
Not so much an ass as a unteachable relic of the Cold War and McCarthy's glorious reign.

Not so much an ass as a unteachable relic of the Cold War and McCarthy's glorious reign.

Isn't that the same thing? ;)

I still don't get why he is so worshipped. He didn't accomplished anything except be a good lackey for Fidel. Until Castro got tired of him, then canned him.

So, that leads me to believe that he is so loved because he was young, good looking and came from an affluent family. In other words, the fact that he was born lucky was his greatest virtue. Isn't that the very thing socialists are supposed to oppose? Its basically the same attitude that keeps monarchies afloat.

Che Guevara: Shirt salesman extraordinaire!

Ass.

jk man, jk

commies still suck though

commies still suck though

Not before dinner and a movie.

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/model-commies-LE375.jpg


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

He was that most dangerous of political animals--the true believer who felt the ends justified the means. He was extraordinarily smart, but he was also reckless and never willing to compromise--he was always forced into it when it was required.

Just reading this thread, and however hilarious them parodies are, The opinion that some people from the US have about socialists/"commies" is sick and childish. In other words "Everyone is equal.....except those who actually believe it"

Che was notorious as an expert in torture, and was known to use various tortue techniques that, by your own admitted standards, are deplorable, inhumane, and patently against the Declaration of Human Rights.

I've encountered this claim before from USians of a certain political persuasion. I would like to see some sort of source or support for such a claim.

As to the claims that he was ineffective: Batista had 10 000 soldiers. Che Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegos led a total of 160 guerillas during the final offensive. Guess who won?

Source: Cien Años de Lucha, various authors, special edition, Havana, 1968.

he was a hero, a bit deluded like the best of heros, but a hero nonetheless. He certainly wasnt a mass murderer. In the trials most of the cuban public were baying for blood anyway. If you want to see mass murderer tendencies then Raul is your best bet, Castros brother. Che was certainly not of this ilk. He genuinely had the best intentions although he tended to see people as cogs in a great envisioned communist system. Which was unrealistic but then again he was a zealously driven tireless idealist. He was also a consummate intellectual, chess was his favourite sport while maths was his way of relaxing. A good military tactician aswell. Generally a nice bloke. Except when he threatened to kill a soldier for complaining about the shitty food on the argentinian mission, and ordering the execution of a puppy who was putting their lives in danger. But these were justifiable actions (cant have mutinies, besides it was only a threat, nor can you have a puppy leading to the annihilation of your company). No one was happy about strangling the puppy either.

He was a heroand an idealist, no doubt about that, he really wanted to improve the life of the lower classes and fight tyranny.
Too bad he was a communist:(

he was a hero, a bit deluded like the best of heros, but a hero nonetheless. He certainly wasnt a mass murderer. In the trials most of the cuban public were baying for blood anyway.

Ah yes, the true mark of a hero and leader being his ability to wilt to what is popular.

If you want to see mass murderer tendencies then Raul is your best bet, Castros brother.

I'm pretty sure most of that bunch could wear the tag.

Che was certainly not of this ilk.

Ya, that would have required competance.

He genuinely had the best intentions

Ya, Hitler had the best of intentions for Germany, too.

although he tended to see people as cogs in a great envisioned communist system.

Much better than seeing them as indivduals with the right to forge their own lives.

Which was unrealistic but then again he was a zealously driven tireless idealist.

So are suicide bombers and Timothy McVeigh.

He was also a consummate intellectual, chess was his favourite sport while maths was his way of relaxing.

And Hitler loved art and his dog. I guess that makes all the bad things he did ok.

A good military tactician aswell.

hehehehehehe

Generally a nice bloke. Except when he threatened to kill a soldier for complaining about the shitty food on the argentinian mission, and ordering the execution of a puppy who was putting their lives in danger. But these were justifiable actions (cant have mutinies, besides it was only a threat, nor can you have a puppy leading to the annihilation of your company). No one was happy about strangling the puppy either.


Dude, if he wasn't cruel, he would have stabbed the puppy in the back of the head. That would have been quick clean and painless. He must have gotten off watching it get strangled.

Also, if he was such a great military leader, he would have known soldiers gripe. Better them to bitch and moan about the food than the shitty leadership.

Ah yes, the true mark of a hero and leader being his ability to wilt to what is popular.



I'm pretty sure most of that bunch could wear the tag.



Ya, that would have required competance.



Ya, Hitler had the best of intentions for Germany, too.



Much better than seeing them as indivduals with the right to forge their own lives.



So are suicide bombers and Timothy McVeigh.



And Hitler loved art and his dog. I guess that makes all the bad things he did ok.



hehehehehehe




Dude, if he wasn't cruel, he would have stabbed the puppy in the back of the head. That would have been quick clean and painless. He must have gotten off watching it get strangled.

Also, if he was such a great military leader, he would have known soldiers gripe. Better them to bitch and moan about the food than the shitty leadership.

1. great military tactician given that he managed to wrest havanna from batistas forces with a relatively small army in comparison.

2. while i disagree with the death penalty, in the context of those trials most of them would have been executed anyway (remember the french revolution, get rid of the old order to minimize the chance that they will return, more war, increased loss of lives, besides the people ruling cuba were completely corrupt and turned it into a national gambling/brothel realm for american soldiers and businessmen). If he hadnt executed them, there would probably be high levels of civil unrest that they could do without. These are just explanatory factors, not justifications.

3. Be careful, your invoking godwins law. If your going to compare hitler to che, you might as well compare hitler to everyone. George Bush may have the "best" of intentions for the world, by imposing american cultural imperialism on it, since consumerist america is meant to be so "great" even though the system under which it prevails is inhuman and disgusting, in its atomization of people E.G.commodities are meant to make you happy, advertisements becoming part of culture and vice versa which urge you that you are only whats important and no one else-social atomization- therefore increased consumption with the absence of social relations, everyone being raised in an environment to think of themselves as their own god, as personalized representations of multi nationals which according to the psychological establishment bear all the hallmarks of psychopathy in their policies. Yeah, so america is becoming a nation of psychopaths, unsurprising actually. Anyway back on topic, you might as well compare hitler to tony blair or anyone else who lives under an ideology and wants to enact social change at the level of politics. In other words the comparison that you make is so stretched that it becomes worthless.

4. I agree with civil freedom, im not condoning him seeing people as cogs in a system. But then again in the aftermath of a revolution the gradual re-introduction of civil liberties may be a better thing than their immediate re-implementation. The nation has already suffered chaos through war and upheaval, so what you need is a strong drive towards order. Again this is just a rationalization, if you can suggest a better way of managing state affairs after a revolution then go right ahead. In any case, there is fuck all civil liberties in america, people are just cogs in the capitalist system who exist to sell their labour power on the market. The breakdown of social institutions such as the family is demonstrative of the erosion of social empathy and commnunal spirit under consumer culture, yes there are counter examples to this process since its not yet complete but there is definately evidence that people are becoming less social as they are caught up in a system that atomizes them.

5. again the weakness of comparison argument. Che is not Timothy Mc Veigh. He might have been an idealist but not all idealists are suicide bombers. Its a logical fallacy to think so. His personal factors would prohibit him from killing innocents intentionally. Then again I guess George Bush has no problem whatsoever with the blood of innocents on his hands or any other american president for that matter. Hmmm, indonesias invasion of East Timor, backed all the way by Washington springs to mind.

6. I dont get what you mean by competence, as he was certainly competent as finance minister during the period in which he held the office.

7. Again, not justifying any personal failings on ches part, just highlighting good aspects to his personality.

8. Argue constructively instead of smugly the next time. Although I have my doubts in even asking for this. Youll probably go ad hominen.:rolleyes:

I'm sure a poll on this guy has already been done some time ago, but what the hell, I'm bored.

Do you think Che Guevara was a hero, or a mass murderer, no better than Stalin? I've always liked the guy (Che, that is), but just today I found out that my best friend can't stand the guy. He called him a fascist and a hypocrite. Harsh words from a guy whose been brainwashed by the media and believes everything he reads on the internet.....

Anyway, I'm just wondering what you guys think of Che? Hero? Murder? Both?
I like the guy, I just don't like how middle-class kids are wearing a shirt with his face plastered on it, yet they have no idea who the hell he is.

*poll coming*

I think Che was a revolutionary hero, just as Fidel was...

i think the problem is, revolutionary heroes should not then take control of the state, but hand it over to those they revolted for.

Would have saved a lot of problems in a lot of places...

I've encountered this claim before from USians of a certain political persuasion. I would like to see some sort of source or support for such a claim.

Hey I asked for that, too.

I'm still waiting on it. Don't hold your breath.