NationStates Jolt Archive

As you may or may not be aware, the ID Cards bill is going through Parliament tonight and, if passed, will be granted royal assent shortly and every citizen of the United Kingdom, if he wants to renew his or her passport, will be forced to submit to this travesty of liberty. BBC Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4707608.stm). Now, let's have a look at ID Cards:

ID Cards Will Not...

Eliminate Identity Fraud - ID Cards will, in fact, hand identity fraudsters able to crack the encryption (and according to people who have been interviewed with knowledge on the subject, this includes a significant proportion of organised crime, most corporations and all major governments) to essentially steal your entire identity. Not just a passport or a PIN number, but reams of information you cant possibly change, such as fingerprints or retina scans. I dont know what will happen to the poor unfortunate individuals to whom this happens, but I suspect it will be much the same as those whose national insurance numbers are stolen, who are told that the theif is just as entitled to their national insurance as they are. If you lose one, you cant cancel the data like you can cancel a credit card - you just have to hope no one with malicious intent finds it.

Combat Terrorism - Recent events have shown us that terrorist acts are committed either by people inside the UK who have no criminal records, or foreign nationals who will not be obligued to receive or carry an ID card anyway. ID Cards would not have stopped 9/11, would not have stopped 7/7 and will not stop terrorism in the future. I really dont understand why the government is still trying to make this point, as it isnt even defeated by technical knowledge as the previous one is, but by simple observation.

Prevent People Taking on Multiple Identities - With regards to the terrorism issue, one of the concerns is people taking on multiple identities. ID Cards will not stop this, as ID Cards will be stolen and forged just as passports are currently. Increasing the number and complexity of encryption methods only buys you a bit of time, it doesnt actually stop the thing occuring. In fact, the idea that ID Cards are infallible will probably make them counter-productive. Whereas people are aware that passports can be forged, people are unlikely to question a biometric ID card, less actually know what to look for to see if it's forged.

Prevent Illegal Immigration - Now this one just makes no sense. It wont stop people entering the country, as foreign nationals will not be required to carry ID Cards (obviously) and illegal immigrants do not exactly stop for port officials and show them their documentation (obviously). Not only that, but once they're in the country if you find someone without an ID Card, you dont know this person is an illegal immigrant, you just know he doesnt have an ID Card on him. You cant prove that he hasnt just left it at home, nor can you prove even if he hasnt got one at all that he isnt a British citizen or staying on a Visa, as they are not compulsorary yet and even when they are wont be for Visa holders. This achieves nothing that couldnt be done already.

ID Cards Will...

Waste Massive Amounts of Money - ID Cards, according to the government, will cost £5bn. Not only is this a massive sum of money, but it's also almost certainly wrong. Considering the complete lack of benefits (see above), surely this money could be better spent in tax cuts to encourage business, or in making up funds for underfunded departments such as defence? The idea that we should waste such massive sums on such a useless scheme is simply absurd.

Cost More it's Meant to - According to the LSE (IIRC) (who I trust far more than the government, especially considering the government has refused an independent review of the costings before the bill is put to Parliament) the entire ID card scheme will cost £14.5bn. This is almost 1.5% of our entire GDP! Not only that, but the bill will be passed on to the citizens of the UK, either through a massive increase in the cost of the cards (which I doubt - it would be politically untenable) or more stealthily through general taxation. Either way, each British citizen could end up paying another £241 either in tax or ID Card costs in exchange for nothing much.

Allow the Government to Track your Movements - Whenever you use the ID card, your position will be logged. The extent to which this is an issue will depend largely on how often you are asked to present your card, but it could well reach the point where ID Cards are used as cheque cards or proof of ID for buying alcohol, in which case peoples' entire lives could essentially be tracked. Why we would want to spend £14.5bn for this privelage is beyond me.

Break Down. A Lot. - As the preliminary testing on these ID Cards have shown, they are rather unreliable. All new technology is. These were also just tests, carried out in unrealistic conditions. When ID Cards start getting scratched, left in wallets for long periods of time and coverted in dust, dirt, Etc. that builds up on anything over long periods of time, they will break down more and more. This will waste a lot of time and cause a lot of anguish, when ID Cards are not even necessary for anything at all.

Some Really Bad Arguments for ID Cards

The Security Services Want Them - Actually they dont. Prominent ex-MI5 men have stated, on the record, that ID Cards will not help in the war against terrorism at all. Consumer rights groups have pointed out that they do not think that ID Cards will cut down on fraud. Even the Government's own independent review on the anti-terrorism laws has reached the conclusion that they will be of limited use at best. The fact is that no one really wants it except the Labour party high command.

The People Want Them - I see no evidence of this. The poll backing it up actually asked something like "Would you support spending a little extra money and giving up a little of your freedoms in order to prevent further terrorist atrocities?" As you can see, this is a completely disingeuous question as it not only does not mention ID Cards at all, but it also assumes that they will prevent terrorism and cost only a bit more as the basis for the question, both of which are disputed. If the people really do want ID Cards then have a referrendum.

The US Will Require Entrants to Have Biometric Data - Ok, so add biometric data to passports, and only require people to use them when they would normally use a passport. This would be much cheaper, easier, not require new legislation and would not represent a serious threat to British liberty. If anything, this is an argument against ID cards, not for them.

They do it in $Country - Errr... ok... and? This has got to be the most pathetic argument in favour of ID cards out there, as it completely ignores all of the actual issues and resorts to some pitiful cry of "They do it over there, so it must be good!" This doesnt follow at all. Notice how it is generally wheeled out after all of the actual arguments for ID Cards have been defeated.

In conclusion, I hope that Blair's plane breaking down on the tarmac in Pretoria is auspicious of a defeat for ID Cards in the Commons tonight; a blow which will hopefully smash New Labour authoritarianism once and for all.

Eh? There's worse than having to carry an ID card around with you all the time. I've been doing it for the past 7 years.

Wow...lotsa info...

...why am I waiting for the RSDP to post?

Eh? There's worse than having to carry an ID card around with you all the time. I've been doing it for the past 7 years.
Im sure there is worse. Does that make it a good idea to waste our money on such things? No.

Skinny - lol!

I'm pretty ambivalent about things in relation to the alleged infringement on civil liberties. My objection to these things is the cost to the taxpayer, especially considering it seems unlikely they'll achieve the objective for which they were created.

Aye. The civil liberties thing is important to me, but I agree it is pretty immaterial. When you pile on the expense and general uselessness of the things, they start to look much worse.

The only thing that pisses me off is that when the UK does something, we invariably follow (a la Shengen).

I personally don't see the need for them.

Im sure there is worse. Does that make it a good idea to waste our money on such things? No.

Skinny - lol!Not really a waste. With a national ID card, it becomes possible to properly enforce age limitations. Sure, that might hurt the alcohol industry a bit if they no longer have as many consumers to sell to.

As for some of your points, they're a collection of paranoid delusions. Tracking your footprints with an ID card wherever you show it? Get real.

Not really a waste. With a national ID card, it becomes possible to properly enforce age limitations. Sure, that might hurt the alcohol industry a bit if they no longer have as many consumers to sell to.
I dont think that's worth £14.5bn, personally, but each to his own.

As for some of your points, they're a collection of paranoid delusions. Tracking your footprints with an ID card wherever you show it? Get real.
Out of 12 points, that is 1. Have you actually read my post? :/ It is also actually true that every time you enter the card it will be stored, as will the location of the place you used it at. Admittedly it's not going to be used much, but why does that mean we should accept it, when you consider the uselessness of the card scheme and the massive expense?

I can think of no good reason to have them. The OP seems to have a fair few good reasons to not have them. So why spend all the money just so our burgeoning totalitarian state can know even more about us that it doesn't need to?

All it's going to do is track the average law (mostly) abiding citizen.
The crooks will have no problems getting around the system.

Don't know about you guys, but in the US it's nearly impossible to do any number of perfectly legal things without a valid driver's license... almost none of which have anything to do with driving. I feel like we already have national ID cards. The only reason Bush & Co. haven't given them that name is the level of paranoid hysteria that would result.

Don't know about you guys, but in the US it's nearly impossible to do any number of perfectly legal things without a valid driver's license... almost none of which have anything to do with driving. I feel like we already have national ID cards. The only reason Bush & Co. haven't given them that name is the level of paranoid hysteria that would result.
Well, I "lost" my passport and the photocard section of my driver's licence on holiday at the start of October.
I decided I ought to get a new driver's licence when I pranged someone's car, although I've not had to use it for anything yet. I can't be bothered to get a new passport at the moment.

Closest thing to ID that I carry is my Young Person's Railcard. I only need that to get a discount on tickets, and only carry it 'cos otherwise I'll forget to pick it up.

Shows how essential ID is to modern living...

Eh? There's worse than having to carry an ID card around with you all the time. I've been doing it for the past 7 years.

However, the ID card system used in Germany, and other countries, is a million miles away from the idea being proposed in Britain.

Largely the whole think about the huge cost to the tax payer and individual. The tax payer for the initial, God knows how much, to set the whole thing up, and the individual because it appears that the cards themselves will cost an arm and a leg.

Also it is not as if the government has a brilliant track record with schemes as IT intensive as this. All such schemes the government has tried to implement have exceded the budget allocated and finished late, if at all.

Forget civil liberties and all that, (ie arguements that come down to a subjective point of view), the cost alone should deter us from setting up a such a scheme.

The Security Services Want Them - Actually they dont. Prominent ex-MI5 men have stated, on the record, that ID Cards will not help in the war against terrorism at all. Consumer rights groups have pointed out that they do not think that ID Cards will cut down on fraud. Even the Government's own independent review on the anti-terrorism laws has reached the conclusion that they will be of limited use at best. The fact is that no one really wants it except the Labour party high command.


By the way I agree with everything said. I am only picking on this part to elaborate.

Some senior police figures have expressed an interest in such ID scheme's. However a policeman's utopia isn't a world where there is no crime, it is one with plenty of crime and plenty of toys for them to use. I realise that it may be a bit cynical of me to say that police want ID cards simply because they want new toys, but the fact that several security professionals who have held high ranking posts have stated that it won't help anything leaves with with no other conclusion.

All it's going to do is track the average law (mostly) abiding citizen.

It is fairly obvious that the average Brit doesn't have a problem with their movements being tracked. Hence the huge amount of people who have Shop Loyalty cards and pay almost exclusively with cards.

The banks and supermarkets track individuals to a far greater extent and with the implied consent of individuals to far greater extent then the government could ever hope for. Largely because their schemes are 'free' and have the appearence of being beneficial.


(And for the record, I do not have any loyalty cards and pay with cash exclusively. Not because I am paranoid, I simply prefer it that way.)

I dont think that's worth £14.5bn, personally, but each to his own.

Which figure is that?

Is it the government approved figure, which a variety of other organisations have expressed reservations about. Or another one?

Sorry, I'm terrible with numbers and have a real difficulty remembering them.

I hope for the government's sake that all budding terrorists and wannabe chavs out there are the first ones to line up to get their ID cards.

Well, duh. Of course they will be.

Amendments time. Firstly, no, I don't want them. However, were they legislation proposed by a Tory administration, I would be a staunch advocate.

In relation to their being voluntary, good lord no. I would compel all Britsih nationals to possess one, and carry it with them at all times, with electronic locater chips (possible? I am a technophobe) placed inside those of notable offenders and suspects.

Amendments time. Firstly, no, I don't want them. However, were they legislation proposed by a Tory administration, I would be a staunch advocate.

Didn't Micheal Howard propose a similar scheme when he was Home Secretary?

Didn't Micheal Howard propose a similar scheme when he was Home Secretary?

In all likelihood, yes. I was only 8 in 1997, so my knowledge is somewhat lacking, however, given that Labour now pursue old Tory policies, I daresay if the Tory have previously advocated it, that would explain why Brown now does so...:p

By the way I agree with everything said. I am only picking on this part to elaborate.

Some senior police figures have expressed an interest in such ID scheme's. However a policeman's utopia isn't a world where there is no crime, it is one with plenty of crime and plenty of toys for them to use. I realise that it may be a bit cynical of me to say that police want ID cards simply because they want new toys, but the fact that several security professionals who have held high ranking posts have stated that it won't help anything leaves with with no other conclusion.
Aye. The thing is that the police are not the primary anti-terrorist arm in the UK, Special Branch and MI5 are, and both of them have spoken out against ID Cards. The police want them, in ym view, because the police have a vested interest in authoritarian laws that allow them to do almost anything. Just look at the terrorism laws that were used to arrest that 80 year old man who heckled Jack Straw at the Labour Party conference. When you start arresting pensioners for interupting politicians, I think you really need to start reconsidering who the enemy actually is.

Good thing is, the vote's tonight and it's going to be close (probably); and Blair can't get there.

Would another defeat for the Government (their third since last May...and their third since 1997) without Blair voting spell the end of him as PM? I'm sure Brown would be raising a smile.

As for some of your points, they're a collection of paranoid delusions. Tracking your footprints with an ID card wherever you show it? Get real.

So are you saying that the potential for abuse isn't there or are you of the thinking that "if your not doing anything wrong one shouldn't have to worry?"

Go back to sleep numbnuts, we'll wake you when all your civil liberties are all gone mmmk?

I just want to say a few words...

ID Cards will cost at least £200 per person, and that is said to be a ridiculous understatement. The idea is a ridiculous waste of money which could, and desperately needs to be put elsewhere (NHS Trusts anyone?)...and the whole thing really makes me believe that if we sectioned a good proportion of Parliament the situation could only improve. In an interview this morning on Radio 4, the Prime Minister *whoops* Chancellor Gordon Brown said that the existing bill would not make the cards compulsory, and that to make them compulsory another bill would have to be passed...and was promptly shot down by the interviewer who said that when you renew your passport, you will have to get one...and Brown did not even try to deny this.

Unfortunately, the government won the debate (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4707608.stm) by 31 votes.

[QUOTE=Teid]I just want to say a few words...

ID Cards will cost at least £200In an interview this morning on Radio 4, the Prime Minister *whoops* Chancellor Gordon Brown said that the existing bill would not make the cards compulsory, and that to make them compulsory another bill would have to be passed.../QUOTE]


If they aren't compulsary... whats the frigging point in having them in the first place? I mean seriously... who's going to go through the hassle of getting one just so they can loose it when they rob the bank next, or try to blow up a part of london.

Excuse me if im being crass... I'm to annoyed to think.

This isn't an attack at Teid...

Also... with this being such a major issue... affecting EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, and the cost being so great, shouldn't there be a plebiscite/referendum?

Shouldn't WE get to have a say? Not really a democracy in my opinion... this isn't just an MP proposing new streetlamps in greater london - it's a bit more widespread.

Amendments time. Firstly, no, I don't want them. However, were they legislation proposed by a Tory administration, I would be a staunch advocate.

You don't want them but you would support them if the Tories had had the idea?:confused:

In relation to their being voluntary, good lord no. I would compel all Britsih nationals to possess one, and carry it with them at all times, with electronic locater chips (possible? I am a technophobe) placed inside those of notable offenders and suspects.

Yet another reason for me to be glad that you're not in power (along with the deportation of muslims and right economic policies).

Big brother = evil
govenrment = evil
we must hide from the government
the government must not know we exist
lets create a government that hides us from the government

You don't want them but you would support them if the Tories had had the idea?:confused:


Since they were originally a Tory policy, yes, and frankly, I am more than a tad concerned as to Gordon Brown, he is demonsrating a disturbing degree of competence as a politician presently.


Yet another reason for me to be glad that you're not in power (along with the deportation of muslims and right economic policies).

I sincerely do wonder why compulsory ID cards, withlocating devices to notable criminals, would be at all bad?

I sincerely do wonder why compulsory ID cards, withlocating devices to notable criminals, would be at all bad?

Tracking devices for dangerous criminals would be ok but ID cards for the entire population isn't just pointless, it's counterproductive.

ID Cards? No thanks. I get enough junk-mail from cdesign proponentists as it is.

Eh? There's worse than having to carry an ID card around with you all the time. I've been doing it for the past 7 years.
Then you have issues.

ID Cards must be stopped. Why can't we go back to the day when you could pay $14 for an acre of land in the midwest and never bothered again? Think of the children. And terrorism wouldn't be a problem (well most wouldn't) if we adopted various Marxist philosophies. We would help the poor and hungry and they wouldn't turn to Al Qaeda to get America's attention.

They do it in $Country - Errr... ok... and? This has got to be the most pathetic argument in favour of ID cards out there, as it completely ignores all of the actual issues and resorts to some pitiful cry of "They do it over there, so it must be good!" This doesnt follow at all. Notice how it is generally wheeled out after all of the actual arguments for ID Cards have been defeated.


This brings out the eurosceptic in me. All countries the government cites as examples are european. As are those that don't believe in trial by jury, or being divided into regions or whatever else is only the Blair legal agenda. I wonder if the database will be shared with Brussels to form an EU wide database to help Europol launch dawn raids against "xenophobes"?

Do they seriously expect people will go to some office and stand still while they photograph their eyes? I will make them physically force me and I guess quite a few others out of 60 million will resist more violently than me.

They wont physically force you, they will just refuse to give you a passport, essentially banning you from leaving the country, unless you get a card.

They wont physically force you, they will just refuse to give you a passport, essentially banning you from leaving the country, unless you get a card.
Well, you could go to Ireland.

But that's about as far as you could go.

Tracking devices for dangerous criminals would be ok but ID cards for the entire population isn't just pointless, it's counterproductive.

I honestly am ignorant as to the permutations of an ID card scheme, and concurrently aware of the paranoia it would incite, however I would advocate for all individuals deemed by the police necessary, with machines in all establishments to facilitate the police tracking the movements of all degenerates.

This whole case for ID cards is seriously weak. The OP pretty much demolished it.

You know, I'm almost at the point of voting *gack* Tory *feels dirty*. I really am beginning to detest this authoritarian govt

They wont physically force you, they will just refuse to give you a passport, essentially banning you from leaving the country, unless you get a card.

Thank god for my Dutch passport :p

(Or Paspoort rather)

Thank god for my Dutch passport :p

(Or Paspoort rather)
And thank him also for my ability to get an Irish one :)

Which I think exists.

I should look into that.

edit: It does. Good.

Next time it'll be an Irish passport then...

And thank him also for my ability to get an Irish one :)

Which I think exists.

I should look into that.

edit: It does. Good.

Next time it'll be an Irish passport then...

w00t.

Does anyone know if the old style British passports will be granfathered out, or will they become obselete?

The bill means that when you renew your passport you will have to get one anyway. So it obviously isn't compulsory :headbang: . I was going to vote Tory in 2009 anyway, but this just makes me even more angry with New Labour. Sadly, the way that politicians work, I doubt this scheme will ever be dismantled. Right now I wouldn't be too upset if someone went into the House of Commons and blew himself up, it would probably make a change for the better....:mad:

Don't say nobody warned people not to vote for Labour. They did anyway, and then they complain when everything goes to pot. I'm outta here! America might be full of guns, but at least that way you can shoot the politicians when they try to seize control of your life...

The only people who have anything to fear from the introduction of the ID card system are the people who have things to hide. i can't see a problem with them myself as i think that the government could do anything radical to try reduce crime and terror and what ever they do people are going to moan, it is just what us british do.
The point about the money is valid in isolatioon but then look at where else the government is spending money. You moan about the rather large amount of money going into this scheme, well it is a much smaller amount than we give the EU each year, and the UK is one of the only countries to follow each directive anyway, and the rewards we see from that are much lower than the possibilities of the ID card scheme. If you want the government to save money get them to pull from the EU, why do we need our apples and potatoes to be certain shapes selected in Brussels anyway????

Sheepish fools, would you mind if CCTV cameras were placed in your home even if you had nothing to hide?

The only people who have anything to fear from the introduction of the ID card system are the people who have things to hide. i can't see a problem with them myself as i think that the government could do anything radical to try reduce crime and terror and what ever they do people are going to moan, it is just what us british do.
Yes, the innocent have nothing to fear!

I think the real paranoia is all this fear-mongering about terrorism. People do realise that terrorism in the whole UK last year (a boom year, ahem, for terrorism) killed fewer people than house fires in Scotland? That, of the ~1000 murders committed, terrorists accounted for 56?

C'mon. The IRA were blowing stuff up for years, nobody made such a fuss about them. Why all the worrying now?

Praetonia is wholly correct.

ID Cards Will Not...
Eliminate Identity Fraud
Combat Terrorism
Prevent People Taking on Multiple Identities
Prevent Illegal Immigration

ID Cards Will...
Waste Massive Amounts of Money
Cost More it's Meant to
Allow the Government to Track your Movements
Break Down. A Lot.
Some Really Bad Arguments for ID Cards
The Security Services Want Them
The People Want Them
The US Will Require Entrants to Have Biometric Data
They do it in $Country
I think an important thing to ask is, who is going to profit from these. In Zimbabwe the regime regularlly refuses to issue IDs to people it does not like, the manufatures of the cards are owned by friends of ministers - it can take as long a three years to get a card. Being caught without an ID card can get you thrown into the slammer (without trial) until someone with ID can come and verifiy who you are.

Ha - the BBC (which is supposed to be neutral) said that at the best, support for ID cards was at 33%, and at worst only 11% liked the idea. So why the hell arent our MPs listening to us?

BBC Poll vote results:


Will ID cards make the UK safer?

Yes
*24.77%*
No
*75.23%*
30072 Votes Cast

Ha - the BBC (which is supposed to be neutral) said that at the best, support for ID cards was at 33%, and at worst only 11% liked the idea. So why the hell arent our MPs listening to us?

BBC Poll vote results:

Will ID cards make the UK safer?

Yes
*24.77%*
No
*75.23%*
30072 Votes Cast
You have to be careful with surveys. Not thinking that ID cards will make the country safer isn't the same as not supporting them.
Ostensibly, of course, safety seems to be the primary motivation for the things, but I'm sure they'll think up other motivations if they feel like it.

Why aren't the politicians listening? Because it's four years to the next election. We'll've forgotten by then. Besides, 24.77% is greater than the 22% of the electorate that voted for Labour...

The purpose of ID cards is supposed to be to make the UK safer, now don't start spouting that crap. They're a waste of money, a waste of time, and they're a sign of the police state our politicians want to turn Britain into. Now I could say that just because someone thinks ID cards may make the UK safer doesn't mean they like the idea.

You have to be careful with surveys.

Especially ones on the BBC (or anywhere on the internet for that matter)

The point about the money is valid in isolatioon but then look at where else the government is spending money. You moan about the rather large amount of money going into this scheme, well it is a much smaller amount than we give the EU each year, and the UK is one of the only countries to follow each directive anyway, and the rewards we see from that are much lower than the possibilities of the ID card scheme.

Can we keep talking about ID cards please.

Especially since the EU, and the money spend because of being a member, is a completely different thing.

C'mon. The IRA were blowing stuff up for years, nobody made such a fuss about them. Why all the worrying now?
Because some one attacked the USA.

The only people who have anything to fear from the introduction of the ID card system are the people who have things to hide.
I really should have added this as a "Really Bad Argument". Clearly you can value privacy without "having something to hide". If you disagree, please open your house to the public and send me your bank details.

i can't see a problem with them myself as i think that the government could do anything radical to try reduce crime and terror and what ever they do people are going to moan, it is just what us british do.
Read my post. It will do none of those things.

The point about the money is valid in isolatioon but then look at where else the government is spending money.
Alternatively it could just not spend more money? The money all ultimately comes from the public, so why not just reduce taxes rather than wasting money?

You moan about the rather large amount of money going into this scheme, well it is a much smaller amount than we give the EU each year, and the UK is one of the only countries to follow each directive anyway,
"We spend more money on X than we would on Y, therefore why is good." doesnt follow at all.

and the rewards we see from that are much lower than the possibilities of the ID card scheme.
What are the rewards from ID cards...?

If you want the government to save money get them to pull from the EU, why do we need our apples and potatoes to be certain shapes selected in Brussels anyway????
That is a completely different debate, and it wouldnt save us money anyway, it would probably ruin our economy because all the EU countries would instantly tarrif us.