NationStates Jolt Archive

I keep on hearing about how Islam is the religion of peace etc. However, the actions of Islamic people seems to say otherwise. Here are just some of the phrases from the Koran that says that Islam is not a religion of peace.

191. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

193. Fight them until "religion is for Allah."


51. Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims.

89. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

101. The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

104. Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. They have no hope from Allah.


12-13. Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous.

14. Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians.

33. Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom.

45. Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers.

51. Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

59. Jews and Christians are evil-livers.

63. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests.

So what do yall think, is Islam really the religion of peace?

Theres a bunch of other Muslim threads...you should have used one of them.
This has also been done many times, always ends with flaming.

Theres a bunch of other Muslim threads...you should have used one of them.
This has also been done many times, always ends with flaming.

Eh, you get bitched at starting a new thread, you get bitched at for bumping up an old one. Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

That list almost looks completely fabricated.

List looks kinda fake...

Now Buddhism is the religion of Peace.

That list almost looks completely fabricated.

How so? Is it really so hard to believe that Muhammed would write this? I mean he did capture Mecca by battle and converted most of his followers after capturing their tribe or village.

List looks kinda fake...

Now Buddhism is the religion of Peace.

Taoism is peaceful, too. At least I think it is... I'm a bit foggy on it.

List looks kinda fake...

Now Buddhism is the religion of Peace.

Read up on the history of Tibet.

How so? Is it really so hard to believe that Muhammed would write this? I mean he did capture Mecca by battle and converted most of his followers after capturing their tribe or village.

I dunno. The list just has that look of suspicion about it.

Heh, Muslims always forget Atheists. 'Part from the 'Non-Believer' stuff. Probably because everyone seemed to believe in a Religion back when the Qur'an was Written.

The religion premotes Giving to the poor,among other things. If you want examples of Christian Idoits, go to Ireland.

Before you start wanking to the "Islam is Evil Pure and Simple" fantasy, name a major religion that has never experienced a violent episode or exploitation by powergrabbers.

Before you start wanking to the "Islam is Evil Pure and Simple" fantasy, name a major religion that has never experienced a violent episode or exploitation by powergrabbers.


Scientology.


....sorry, but you did ask.....

List looks kinda fake...

Now Buddhism is the religion of Peace.
Only cause that fat bugger'll sit on you if you try anything on with his monks.

Scientology.


....sorry, but you did ask.....

Scientology is not a religion, it's a scam and cults filled with idiots who fell for a obvious scam.

Scientology is not a religion, it's a scam and cults filled with idiots who fell for a obvious scam.


So is christianity.

So is christianity.

ZING!

Scientology.


....sorry, but you did ask.....

He said Religion. Not a cult.

He said Religion. Not a cult.

Well, that puts Objectivism out of the picture... ;)

He said Religion. Not a cult.


Six of one..half dozen of the other......

Before you start wanking to the "Islam is Evil Pure and Simple" fantasy, name a major religion that has never experienced a violent episode or exploitation by powergrabbers.

That's actually kinda my point. I'm tired of hearing people saying (usually after an attack by Islamtic people, or islamtic riots) that Islam is really a religion of peace. Guess what, it isn't. However, neither is Christianity, or Judaism, or any other major religion. So stop it already!

I would advise learning to correctly cite passages from the Quran before posting a thread like this one.

I would advise learning to correctly cite passages from the Quran before posting a thread like this one.

I was going to say the same but you beat me to it. ;)

That's actually kinda my point. I'm tired of hearing people saying (usually after an attack by Islamtic people, or islamtic riots) that Islam is really a religion of peace. Guess what, it isn't. However, neither is Christianity, or Judaism, or any other major religion. So stop it already!

"Islamtic"?

So is christianity.

I've never been to a Church that REQUIRED you to give them money. Remember, Jesus said "Give what you can."

Sciencetology says "Give us $300 and we'll make those evil theism go away."

I would advise learning to correctly cite passages from the Quran before posting a thread like this one.

In a few hours, Keruvalia will log on. He's a Muslim, so he should be able to straighten this bullshit Muslim-bashing thread out.

I've never been to a Church that REQUIRED you to give them money. Remember, Jesus said "Give what you can."

Sciencetology says "Give us $300 and we'll make those evil theism go away."


Perhaps you aware of the practive of "tithing"

only Christianity is so bold as to tell you how much you should be giving.

I would advise learning to correctly cite passages from the Quran before posting a thread like this one.

Eh don't really feel like learning Arab.

Eh don't really feel like learning Arab.

It's Arabic, dumbass.

If this isn't a flamebait thread, I dunno what is. Stop posting before you make yourself look completely uneducated on the matter (we already know you are, but I'm just trying to be nice).

No of course it isn't, but declaring it one probably cuts way down on the amount of retaliation toward innocent victims. Especially if you are a European nation trying to replace a falling birth rate with an influx of enough labor to remain competitive and enhance your population growth.
Islam is a warrior religion, it always has been and always will be. The fact that it is the only major religion that advocates revenge for percieved wrongs, and lacks a centeral authority leaves it entirely open to the interpretation of the local authority. This is what makes it so attractive to those that would use it for their own purpose. It is also what makes it such an attractive option in US prisons.

Before you start wanking to the "Islam is Evil Pure and Simple" fantasy, name a major religion that has never experienced a violent episode or exploitation by powergrabbers.

Maybe my history is a little shady but what about Buddhism and Taoism?

That's actually kinda my point. I'm tired of hearing people saying (usually after an attack by Islamtic people, or islamtic riots) that Islam is really a religion of peace. Guess what, it isn't. However, neither is Christianity, or Judaism, or any other major religion. So stop it already!

A counterpoint is that Christianity and Judaism have never been grilled as a whole whenever acts of terrorism were committed in their name or supposed ideals. Whenever something blows up in the world today though, the general public's collective reaction is "Some dirty brown-skinned Muslim must have done it!"

Perhaps you aware of the practive of "tithing"

only Christianity is so bold as to tell you how much you should be giving.

and yet, on the envolope that I get has a "$____". They allow me to write in how much I want to give to my church. THOSE EVIL BASTARDS! HOW DARE THEY DON'T FORCE ME TO PAY A CERTAIN AMOUNT!

/scarcasm

Hey, if blue hair old ladies are stupid enough to donate money to Pat Robertson, is it really his fault or the old ladies fault. Remember the famous phroase "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Christ on a bike. Here we go... This thread's gonna hit the shitter.

It's Arabic, dumbass.

If this isn't a flamebait thread, I dunno what is. Stop posting before you make yourself look completely uneducated on the matter (we already know you are, but I'm just trying to be nice).

So I guess when I want a rational discussion on the fact that so many people are claiming that Islam is the religion of peace, and yet, the writings of Muhammed and the actions of Islam followers says otherwise, that makes it a flame bait? Trust me if this was a flame bait I could come up with a better one. It's not "ALL ISLAM SHOULD BE KILLED." I just want people to stop harping a false idea that Islam is a religion of peace.

I had to pick no, because there is no middle ground in the poll. No religion is truly peaceful because the believers are human. Human's are inherently violent little bastards who will use any excuse to somehow silence those who disagree with them. To me, calling Islam (or any religion for that matter) 'peaceful' strikes me as either shameless pandering or naivete in it's worst form.

Maybe my history is a little shady but what about Buddhism and Taoism?

Read up on the history of Tibet.

No monotheistic religion is ever peaceful. Not because of its scriptures (which tend to be hateful enough, in most cases), but because of its followers. If you only believe in one single god, and that god is the only one that exists, you tend to get aggressive at others not believing in that god.

I just want people to stop harping a false idea that Islam is a religion of peace.

Conversely, I would like people to stop believing that Christianity is the great religion of peace.

'Zat how you like it?

Conversely, I would like people to stop believing that Christianity is the great religion of peace.

'Zat how you like it?

I never claim it was....

But isn't it strange that while Jesus preached love, kindness, forgiveness, and love the person but hate the sin. Yes, Jesus was an EVIL person. How DARE he preach love and forgivness.

The action of idiots is what gave Christianity its violence past.

Read up on the history of Tibet.

Was Taoism also involved there?

Maybe my history is a little shady but what about Buddhism and Taoism?


It would depend on what exactly we are talking about.

If you mean an out and out war against an enemy explicitly for reasons of religion...the only one that springs to mind would be the Crusades.
That would be all about the Christians and the Muslims.

Stone Bridges mentioned Tibet, earlier, but hes clearly not refering that The Dhali Llama ordered a war against neighboring Mormons or anything.
Hes confusing a country going to war, with another country that may have a different religion.

Then again...my ancient Tibetanese history probably is about as good as Stone Bridges.

Maybe my history is a little shady but what about Buddhism and Taoism?

Read up on the history of Tibet.

He doesn't have to. Let's just keep it at the fact that the Mongol Hordes were buddhist... ;)

Besides - the Buddhism of Tibet varies from the other kinds of Buddhism found and as such isn't very representative.

I never claim it was....

But isn't it strange that while Jesus preached love, kindness, forgiveness, and love the person but hate the sin. Yes, Jesus was an EVIL person. How DARE he preach love and forgivness.

The action of idiots is what gave Christianity its violence past.

And yet, Christians rely on the Old Testament as much as on the new one. It was used to justify slavery, burn witches and heretics, fight the crusades and supress women. Today, it's still used to discriminate against homosexuals, to provide excuses to tie women to the household and to promote superstition over science....
Great record indeed.

He doesn't have to. Let's just keep it at the fact that the Mongol Hordes were buddhist... ;)

Hardly uniformly, however.

You still haven't addressed taoism, I haven't seen a war fought in the name of Taoism, certainly not to the extent of western religions...am i wrong?

And yet, Christians rely on the Old Testament as much as on the new one. It was used to justify slavery, burn witches and heretics, fight the crusades and supress women. Today, it's still used to discriminate against homosexuals, to provide excuses to tie women to the household and to promote superstition over science....
Great record indeed.

The Old Testament did say all of those thing. I guess all religion has blood on it's hand. Just like I said earlier. There is no true religion of peace.

The Old Testament did say all of those thing. I guess all religion has blood on it's hand. Just like I said earlier. There is no true religion of peace.

Exactly. So there's really no point in picking out one of them and presenting it as evil incarnate, is there?

Exactly. So there's really no point in picking out one of them and presenting it as evil incarnate, is there?

No there isn't, but like I said. I'm just tired of hearing "But Islam is the religion of peace..." Every time I hear that I just want to bang my head against the wall.

and yet, on the envolope that I get has a "$____". They allow me to write in how much I want to give to my church. THOSE EVIL BASTARDS! HOW DARE THEY DON'T FORCE ME TO PAY A CERTAIN AMOUNT!


Do you know wich organization owns the most amount of land in the world, and therefore making it one of the richest?

How about Holy Mamma Church?

Youve never heard stories about how average people were ostracized for not paying ten percent of thier income, even excommunicated?
Its all over the place.

Its not like churches have any other source of income, they rely solely on thier congragations for support.
The only irony is that they will preach the story of Jesus and the Money Lenders....WHILE PASSING AROUND A COLLECTION PLATE!

Whooohoo!

Dont pretend like your faith is any different from any others, mister.
Your god has cuased just as much suffering as Achmed's is right now.
People use thier religions dogmas as exscuses for portraying hate and bigotry. Humanity has done it since they invented religions.
Religious zealots are dangerous, peroid.

Exactly. So there's really no point in picking out one of them and presenting it as evil incarnate, is there?

Other than to satisfy one's need for sanctimony, superiority and persecuting? Not really.

Other than to satisfy one's need for sanctimony, superiority and persecuting? Not really.


You make it sound dirty when you say it like that.

Do you know wich organization owns the most amount of land in the world, and therefore making it one of the richest?

How about Holy Mamma Church?

Youve never heard stories about how average people were ostracized for not paying ten percent of thier income, even excommunicated?
Its all over the place.

Its not like churches have any other source of income, they rely solely on thier congragations for support.
The only irony is that they will preach the story of Jesus and the Money Lenders....WHILE PASSING AROUND A COLLECTION PLATE!

Whooohoo!

Dont pretend like your faith is any different from any others, mister.
Your god has cuased just as much suffering as Achmed's is right now.
People use thier religions dogmas as exscuses for portraying hate and bigotry. Humanity has done it since they invented religions.
Religious zealots are dangerous, peroid.

You know, I did a Google search, and yet, I couldn't find a Church that was the Holy Mamma Church. Mysterious...

I would also like to say that on the envolope that I get to put in my money, it doesn't have my money on it. The only thing that has my name on it is the box that the envolope came in. I've been to Catholic Church all over this country, same thing all over.

Personally though I find the hypocrisy kind of funny, an entire trade center crumbles and people say Islam is a religion of peace, one abortion clinic gets a little smoke and a broken window and "Christians are bastards!!" I'm not saying either of these things are justifiable, but you have to see both sides of the issue, ultimately it is not a religion or belief that is corrupt, it is the people within that distort the teachings...however in the case of Islam I'm sorry to say that it is right now where christianity was in the middle ages. In Christianity we still have extremist today but most of them are a minority of mullet-headed rednecks, while Islam has entire nations of these "radicals" who will not rest until Islam is a one-world religion.

Eh don't really feel like learning Arab.

You don't need to learn Arabic. It's a simple matter of typing numbers and colons.

What you are doing is the equivalent of writing "Leviticus 105". If anyone tried to find Leviticus 105, they wouldn't be able to. If anyone tried to check to see if Leviticus 105 were correctly quoted, they wouldn't be able to. If anyone tried to find the context for Leviticus 105, they wouldn't be able to. Why? Because there is no such verse as Leviticus 105. Leviticus, like the Quran, is divided into chapters and verses, and when you cite a verse you give both the chapter and the verse.

Anyone who knew what they were talking about regarding the Quran and its content would know all of this already. If you are seriously trying to prove that Islam is not a religion of peace, I suggest you do some reading. I'd start with the Quran - the whole thing, mind, good and bad, everything in context, not a few verses pulled out by Islamophobes to forward their hateful ideology.

You don't have to spend a penny. Here's a link: http://www.islamusa.org/OnlineTrans/index.html

By the way the reason you see money amounts and names and such on envelopes for tithing is purely for record and tax purposes, in ancient times we didn't have so much red tape and paperwork, but our new society does, so just get used to it, sorry...besides you shouldn't be complaining all that really means is you can get a tax deduction on your donation.

You know, I did a Google search, and yet, I couldn't find a Church that was the Holy Mamma Church. Mysterious...

Try googling "www.growasenseofhumor.com"

(insert various non-confrontational smiley of your choice)

I would also like to say that on the envolope that I get to put in my money, it doesn't have my money on it.

What?

The only thing that has my name on it is the box that the envolope came in. I've been to Catholic Church all over this country, same thing all over.

Are you drunk?

to learn more about islam i advise you this website:

http://www.harunyahya.com

Try googling "www.growasenseofhumor.com"

(insert various non-confrontational smiley of your choice)



What?



Are you drunk?

No I'm not drunk and what I ment is that my name, nor address shows up on the envolope that I put my tith in. I've seen the same thing all over this country in diffrent churches. The only time my name and address shows up on the tithing envlope is on the box that they come in, in.

You don't need to learn Arabic. It's a simple matter of typing numbers and colons.

What you are doing is the equivalent of writing "Leviticus 105". If anyone tried to find Leviticus 105, they wouldn't be able to. If anyone tried to check to see if Leviticus 105 were correctly quoted, they wouldn't be able to. If anyone tried to find the context for Leviticus 105, they wouldn't be able to. Why? Because there is no such verse as Leviticus 105. Leviticus, like the Quran, is divided into chapters and verses, and when you cite a verse you give both the chapter and the verse.

Anyone who knew what they were talking about regarding the Quran and its content would know all of this already. If you are seriously trying to prove that Islam is not a religion of peace, I suggest you do some reading. I'd start with the Quran - the whole thing, mind, good and bad, everything in context, not a few verses pulled out by Islamophobes to forward their hateful ideology.

You don't have to spend a penny. Here's a link: http://www.islamusa.org/OnlineTrans/index.html

I thought it was a crime to translate the Koran.

Conversely, I would like people to stop believing that Christianity is the great religion of peace.

'Zat how you like it?

Like Islam, Christianity, at least in essence, is a religion of peace. In modern society, also like Islam, it often serves the function of being a reactionary impediment to proper progressive change, but that is not the fault of Jesus and the countless hundreds of millions of decent Christians who have lived according to their beliefs. The blame lies in the present organization of society, with the resulting unfortunate consequences for a large number of sectors.

I thought it was a crime to translate the Koran.

You thought wrong.

No disrespect intended, are you saying they put everyone's name on a single box? At my church the envelopes come attached with a small form, the amount you're giving, what you want it to go to (general tithe, missions,sunday school fund, etc.) and your full name.

You thought wrong.

No, I'm pretty sure it is. I remember back in my Middle Eastern history class, we had a professor who is Islamic come give us a lecture on Islam. I did ask about translating the Koran, and he did say that it is forbidden to translate the Koran from the Arabic text.

No I'm not drunk and what I ment is that my name, nor address shows up on the envolope that I put my tith in. I've seen the same thing all over this country in diffrent churches. The only time my name and address shows up on the tithing envlope is on the box that they come in, in.


Well, thats how your church does it.
Good for them.

I was only talking about the Catholics.
Not to mention the Lutherans, Episcopalians, the Baptists, the Joe Piscopo-apalians.....

Lets put it this way...would you say that corruption and greed, is a minor problem, or a major problem facing most religions today?

No, I'm pretty sure it is. I remember back in my Middle Eastern history class, we had a professor who is Islamic come give us a lecture on Islam. I did ask about translating the Koran, and he did say that it is forbidden to translate the Koran from the Arabic text.

It is possible that some legal scholars believe it is so. Nevertheless, the Quran has been translated countless times into English and other languages, often by Muslims, and translations of it have been distributed widely, also often by Muslims.

What is true is that translations are not seen as the "real" version, losing as they do shades of meaning in the revelation given by God to Muhammed.

Well, thats how your church does it.
Good for them.

I was only talking about the Catholics.
Not to mention the Lutherans, Episcopalians, the Baptists, the Joe Piscopo-apalians.....

Lets put it this way...would you say that corruption and greed, is a minor problem, or a major problem facing most religions today?

Umm, I am Catholic. And I would say that the only person that really use Christanity for greed is The 700 Club.

Umm, I am Catholic. And I would say that the only person that really use Christanity for greed is The 700 Club.

And televangelists, and those who teach prosperity (giving to "Get")

Umm, I am Catholic. And I would say that the only person that really use Christanity for greed is The 700 Club.


So, youre telling me that only the slightly demonic 700 club, are the only Christians who benefit financially from thier faiths?

So, youre telling me that only the slightly demonic 700 club, are the only Christians who benefit financially from thier faiths?

Lets get something straight here. Any money that any Catholic Church gets goes to the Catholic Church. The priest doesn't get it. Upon entering priesthood the priest swears not only a vow of celebicey, but also a vow of poverty. All Catholic priest are poor. Everything that you see, the house, the car, the maids, etc. Are all provided by his congestation and by the Catholic Church itself. The priest owns nothing, he has nothing under his name.

Next week, we shall look into why we rank our men by the size of their hats, and exactly what does the Pope keep in his hat? The answear will suprise you.

Lets get something straight here. Any money that any Catholic Church gets goes to the Catholic Church. The priest doesn't get it. Upon entering priesthood the priest swears not only a vow of celebicey, but also a vow of poverty. All Catholic priest are poor. Everything that you see, the house, the car, the maids, etc. Are all provided by his congestation and by the Catholic Church itself. The priest owns nothing, he has nothing under his name.

Next week, we shall look into why we rank our men by the size of their hats, and exactly what does the Pope keep in his hat? The answear will suprise you.


Wow.
Thats quite the hostile response.
You must be a violent person.
Probably that religion of violence you practice.

Wow.
Thats quite the hostile response.
You must be a violent person.
Probably that religion of violence you practice.

Nah, I'm actually pretty peaceful, hell I have a soft spots for animals. I just hate it when people have misconception about my church. "Oh the Catholics worship Mary, the idea of saints come from pagen etc." So yea, alittle touchy there.

Nah, I'm actually pretty peaceful, hell I have a soft spots for animals. I just hate it when people have misconception about my church. "Oh the Catholics worship Mary, the idea of saints come from pagen etc." So yea, alittle touchy there.


So, you see what Im getting at?

All organized religions have a group of loudmouth assholes, who scream the loudest, and convince more and more people to go and burn something, or blow something up, or go and re-take the Holy Land, or whatever...

Its simply Islams turn.

to learn more about islam i advise you this website:

http://www.harunyahya.com

This is an author's personal website, and should not be trusted for unbiased information on anything. Nothing that I read on it had any identifyable purpose other than to aggrandize the author and his ideas and try to sell his book. I would not consider the site reliable for any information whatsoever.

A telling sign: the site-sponsored banner advertisement fails to take into account that insects like moths and centipedes are composed differently than humans and other higher life forms. If you look at the site, you'll see what I mean.

Linking to this site is like linking to Pat Robertson to give someone the truth on Christianity.

If you look at the very basis of most religions, they basically tell you to be nice. They also have cute little stories, sometimes reffered to as "Gospels", to make a point or to represent an ideal. It's only when people become too serious and turn into "extremists" that they really become violent. The Muslims you hear about in the newspaper and tv, or atleast most of them, are complete extremists. They believe that anyone any different should either be slaves or dead. The key to harmony between the religions, races, and sexes, is moderation. Even if you do believe in something, take a look from the other person's view. Don't you think everything would be so much more pleasant if people just did that instead of kill each other?:p

Linking to this site is like linking to Pat Robertson to give someone the truth on Christianity.

Yes, because everyone knows that if you want the truth about something it can only be obtained from an unbiased secular progressive endorsed by the ACLU.

I only have one Muslim friend. Not because I don't want to have more, just the way it is.
Anyway, she said it's peaceful. I'll take her word for it.

Perhaps you aware of the practive of "tithing"

only Christianity is so bold as to tell you how much you should be giving.

Doenst force you. Its just suggested.

Religious zealots are dangerous, peroid.[/QUOTE]



Thats all there need to be said!!!

That list almost looks completely fabricated.

I thought I'd double check those quotes, so I broke open my copy of the translation of the Quran. I'm putting the surahs in the order he (the OP) put them in.

191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah (polytheism, atheism, apostasy) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-alHaram (sanctuary at Makka), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (polytheism, atheism, apostasy) and all and every kind of worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (polytheists, wrong doers, etc.)

Anyhow I wanted to write more but I can't find which part of the Quran the rest of the quotes are in as they are referenced incorrectly, he puts the number of the surah (verse) but not the part its located in. However, if those two verses describe a peacefull religion, wtf would a warlike one be like?

51

Read up on the history of Tibet.


yes tibet, just like almost every other country in the world has a violent chapter in its past. but that has nothing to do with buddhism whatsoever so please don'y confuse people into thinking it might do. :headbang:

191. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

193. Fight them until "religion is for Allah."


51. Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims.

89. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

101. The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

104. Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. They have no hope from Allah.


12-13. Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous.

14. Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians.

33. Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom.

45. Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers.

51. Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

59. Jews and Christians are evil-livers.

63. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests.


False list.

I see no reference to chapter/verse here. I see one number in front of each sentence and that's not enough. Like citing the Bible, you gotta give the "###:###" format.

Also, none of the above statements exists in Qu'ran. Stop spreading other people's lies. Consider your source.

No there isn't, but like I said. I'm just tired of hearing "But Islam is the religion of peace..." Every time I hear that I just want to bang my head against the wall.

Crossposted:

Aye, but one must consider how the dogma is presented and by whom. Always consider two things:

1] The Source
2] Context

If a website named www.fuckyoumuslims.com quotes Qur'an, you can automatically ignore it as a valid source for information on Islam.

The other problem is that people don't quote Qur'an when they do quote it. They'll find a Surah and quote a verse that says "Kill them all" but they completely ignore the verse before which lays out detailed diplomacy proceedings and every step that should be taken *before* war, before violence, and then completely ignore the verse afterwards which says to back off if apologies are issued and peace is sought. What's even more sad are the people who bring up the "smite the necks and fingers" verse and don't look back a couple of verses to see that it's Allah talking to Angels, not to men. Angels. NOT men.

"Religion of Peace" does *not* - I repeat: NOT - mean Muslims are to just sit back and take whatever is thrown at them, however. We are not meant to be global whipping boys.

What happens is that someone will come out and slap a Muslim and when the Muslim slaps him back, he will scream "See?! They're not peaceful!! Kill them all!!"

"Religion of Peace" does not mean we won't defend ourselves.

Christianity is a "Religion of Peace", but how many verses can be attributed to showing certain people as "worthy of death"? Taken out of context, Christianity can look pretty bloody in its dogma as well.

I thought I'd double check those quotes, so I broke open my copy of the translation of the Quran. I'm putting the surahs in the order he (the OP) put them in.

191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah (polytheism, atheism, apostasy) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-alHaram (sanctuary at Makka), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (polytheism, atheism, apostasy) and all and every kind of worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (polytheists, wrong doers, etc.)

A Surah is not a verse, it's a chapter. There are only 114 Surat in Qu'ran, so you cannot have Surah 191.

What Surah does this come from and why has 190, 192, and 194 been conveniently left out?

Here's why:

Surah 2 (Al-Baqarah)

190: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.


Stop taking other people's word for things and learn to read for yourself.

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moiz/quran/

I see nothing wrong with the above, do you? If someone fights you, should you not defend yourself within reasonable limits? If they stop, should you not stop? Should people not be allowed to cast off the yoke of oppression?

That's what this is about you know: rebelling against oppression, not aggressive war.

What's the problem here? Do you not believe the Iraqi people should have been liberated from Saddam? Do you not believe the people of the United States should have rebelled against the oppression of the British crown? Do you believe the oppressed should stay oppressed in the name of "Peace"?

There is no true peace in oppression.

A Surah is not a verse, it's a chapter. There are only 114 Surat in Qu'ran, so you cannot have Surah 191.

What Surah does this come from and why has 190, 192, and 194 been conveniently left out?

Here's why:

Surah 2 (Al-Baqarah)

190: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.


Stop taking other people's word for things and learn to read for yourself.

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moiz/quran/

I see nothing wrong with the above, do you? If someone fights you, should you not defend yourself within reasonable limits? If they stop, should you not stop? Should people not be allowed to cast off the yoke of oppression?

That's what this is about you know: rebelling against oppression, not aggressive war.

What's the problem here? Do you not believe the Iraqi people should have been liberated from Saddam? Do you not believe the people of the United States should have rebelled against the oppression of the British crown? Do you believe the oppressed should stay oppressed in the name of "Peace"?

There is no true peace in oppression.

The part you translate as "tumult and oppression" is translated as non-believers in my quran

It is a religion of peace only insofar as any of the semitic based faiths ; Christianity, Judaism and Islam, are pacifist. The violent manner in which it ws born and compelled to seek survival engendered a faith accordingly willing to condone violence, to a similar extent to Christianity being a faith at home with violence, and Judaism. However, the central tenets of the faith are essentially peaceful, it is merely the manner in which they are obliged to be applied that requires violence.

It depends what you mean by Islam. If you mean Islam as literally described in the Quran, then no it is not a religion of peace. If you mean the happy-clappy version of Islam that it has morphed into in some areas to make it more acceptable to secular societies, in much the same way as Christianity has done so, then yes it is a religion of peace. It all depends on definitions and semantics. Silly argument, really.

He said Religion. Not a cult.

Isn't a cult just a religion of the minority? Does anyone have a dictionary handy? This is getting off topic, so back on track:

The OT of the Bible has many similar quotes endorsing war, such as:

(Deuteronomy 7: 22-24): "The Lord your God will drive out these nations before you, little by little. You will not be able to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you. But the Lord your God will deliver them over to you, throwing them into great confusion until they are destroyed. He will give their kings into your hand, and you will wipe out their names from under heaven. No one will be allowed to stand up against you; you will destroy them."

(Joel 3:9-10): "Proclaim this among the nations; Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your ploughshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears"

Can any monotheistic religion ever be called a 'religion of peace'? I mean look at the crusades, they killed many Islamic non-believers just for being infidels as that's what their Pope told them to do. Isn't that what the Terrorists are doing, maybe they're just behind with the times as many of them come from developing countries?

Then again, the Bible is very inconsistent and sometimes gives a message of war while at other times giving a message of peace. I don't have a Qu'ran so I wouldn't know but maybe Islam is like that too.

I keep on hearing about how Islam is the religion of peace etc. However, the actions of Islamic people seems to say otherwise. Here are just some of the phrases from the Koran that says that Islam is not a religion of peace.

191. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

193. Fight them until "religion is for Allah."


51. Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims.

89. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

101. The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

104. Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. They have no hope from Allah.


12-13. Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous.

14. Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians.

33. Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom.

45. Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers.

51. Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

59. Jews and Christians are evil-livers.

63. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests.

So what do yall think, is Islam really the religion of peace?

Justify, if you have not done so, where you found these verses, and where are these verses located in The Holy Qu'ran?

Without question it is, but not all who practice it are. As with those who follow Christ, his teachings are of peace but not all Christian are good or peace loving.
It's not the religion it is the people and how they choose to misunderstand wht was written.

All religon is inherintly evil, Islam is no exception.

Favorite quote: There are good men who do good deeds, and evil men who do evil deeds, but it takes religon to make good men do evil deeds.

The majority of Muslims don't buy into that shit. Unfortunately, there's a more significant and more dangerous segment of the Muslim population that is willing to resort to violence in the name of their religion.

I'd love to dismiss those guys as not being true Muslims, but unfortunately then we're falling into the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

False list.

I see no reference to chapter/verse here. I see one number in front of each sentence and that's not enough. Like citing the Bible, you gotta give the "###:###" format.

Also, none of the above statements exists in Qu'ran. Stop spreading other people's lies. Consider your source.

Its not a false list and they do exist in the Qu'ran

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them

4:91 If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.

3:118 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.

2:96 Jews are the greediest of all humankind

Now while I am prepared to accept these as out of contex, do not tell me they are not in the Qu'ran

If we are talking quotes:
'We have just enough religion to hate, but not enough to make us love one another.'

Religion is not evil man is evil. Poison is not evil, the act of givning it to some one could be.

If we are talking quotes:
'We have just enough religion to hate, but not enough to make us love one another.'

Religion is not evil man is evil. Poison is not evil, the act of givning it to some one could be.

I keep on hearing about how Islam is the religion of peace etc. However, the actions of Islamic people seems to say otherwise. Here are just some of the phrases from the Koran that says that Islam is not a religion of peace.

191. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

193. Fight them until "religion is for Allah."


51. Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims.

89. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

101. The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

104. Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. They have no hope from Allah.


12-13. Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous.

14. Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians.

33. Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom.

45. Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers.

51. Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

59. Jews and Christians are evil-livers.

63. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests.

So what do yall think, is Islam really the religion of peace?

I refuse to believe that most of those are quotes from the Koran, seeing as all three of the religions you mentioned (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) all started from the same point, and by that I mean the man called Abraham. And the most violence, up until the 20th century, was perputrated by Christians attacking Muslims.

Sure the actions of a few Muslims in recent years have made Islam look violent, but think of how many Christians have murdered while stating that God told them to- or, better yet, "the Devil made me do it". If we compare percentages, I think you'll find that it's only a tenth of a percent of the Muslim population of the WORLD that are extremists.

And you don't even point out how charitable Islam asks its followers to be, and how devoted the Muslims of the world really are: How many Christian men can honestly claim they give one-tenth to the needy or the poor and pray five times a day? How many Christians have gone to the trouble of travelling to Jerusalem or Bethelham, if only for the novelty rather than the spirituality?

If anything, we should consider Judaism the religion of peace: They're the only ones who have done the least in regards to starting wars and causing violence towards the other two religions of Abraham.

Cheers.

Before you start wanking to the "Islam is Evil Pure and Simple" fantasy, name a major religion that has never experienced a violent episode or exploitation by powergrabbers.

The problem is, Islam's violent episode has been since the beginning of the 'religion' till now.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0884198847/104-9072093-3420742?v=glance&n=283155

Why not read a book from an ex-muslim who says "Islam is Terrorism" ?

I dunno. The list just has that look of suspicion about it.
I've read the Koran and these verses are there. I recommend going to the site of a University. From there you can search for specific works in the Koran and find where these occur. You will find that the originator of this thread is just scratching the surface on the hateful passages of the Koran.

Sciencology is NOT Christianity. I am sure my fellow christians will believe me. Also as responce to the Islamic religion question I have a muslim friend and he says Islam is a peacfull religion. And the list may be true but even christianity and Judaism has fout in their history.

Yes, Islam is a religion of peace.

Canada City'] Why not read a book from an ex-muslim who says "Islam is Terrorism" ?

Why go to the trouble? Obviously he's pointed everything out for us by saying that. And why wouldn't an ex-Muslim who's written a book say "Islam is terrorism"? It's shock-to-sell tactics. It's like someone who's just quit Kabbalah coming out and saying "Oh my God, they don't have a f***ing clue in there!"

Heh, Muslims always forget Atheists. 'Part from the 'Non-Believer' stuff. Probably because everyone seemed to believe in a Religion back when the Qur'an was Written.

The religion premotes Giving to the poor,among other things. If you want examples of Christian Idoits, go to Ireland.


man i know what you mean. im from irelnad..most people dont care about religion and are pretty sound... but you do get the nuts like everywhere

Taoism is peaceful, too. At least I think it is... I'm a bit foggy on it.

Maybe my history is a little shady but what about Buddhism and Taoism?

In all of the history of Taoism, only one specific event of violence comes to mind... the Yellow Turban Rebellion.

That's actually kinda my point. I'm tired of hearing people saying (usually after an attack by Islamtic people, or islamtic riots) that Islam is really a religion of peace. Guess what, it isn't. However, neither is Christianity, or Judaism, or any other major religion. So stop it already!

When's the last time Christianity or Judaism committed violence in the name of their religions?

When's the last time Christianity or Judaism committed violence in the name of their religions?

Christianity I believe was the crusades and the whole 'witch hunting business'. Most big religions have a big black eye on their history, kind of like nations with American's "Black Slavery" and Canada's treatment on the chinese.

But we are talking about the modern times, and Islam is the new thing to be causing a lot of problems with our world.

Scientology.


....sorry, but you did ask.....

Actually, noted scientologist Tom Cruise tried to kill Oprah Winfrey.

http://tcruiseko.ytmnd.com/

What I think we are confusing is that the reason some one gives for an evil act does not have to be the truth.
The question is, does Islam as a faith call on it's followers to be violent?
Not, are some muslims violent and do they use their religion as an excuse?

Canada City']Christianity I believe was the crusades and the whole 'witch hunting business'. Most big religions have a big black eye on their history, kind of like nations with American's "Black Slavery" and Canada's treatment on the chinese.

But we are talking about the modern times, and Islam is the new thing to be causing a lot of problems with our world.

Exactly. And although it may seem like it hasn't been so long, people need to remember that the 20th Century was really four or five hundred years squashed into one hundred.

Heh, Muslims always forget Atheists. 'Part from the 'Non-Believer' stuff. Probably because everyone seemed to believe in a Religion back when the Qur'an was Written.

The religion premotes Giving to the poor,among other things. If you want examples of Christian Idoits, go to Ireland.
I really resent that. what exactly do you mean by christian idiots If you refer to the trouble up north religeon is just a front for a territorial dispute. And if you happen to be so stuck up and ignorant to believe that we are controlled by our priests you should get your head examined that bullshit ended 50 years ago pal. I'd like an apology for that remark.

What I think we are confusing is that the reason some one gives for an evil act does not have to be the truth.
The question is, does Islam as a faith call on it's followers to be violent?
Not, are some muslims violent and do they use their religion as an excuse?

The REAL question is, when are muslims going to pull that metre ruler out of their asses and admit that either the koran needs revision, or shouldn't be take literally?

ok scientoligy= evil, its true... their creepy. almost lured me and some of my mates into one of their buildings with "free stress test" , where they kindly show you how stressed you are , and how they have the answer. anyway we saw the sign in time and quickly left.. right christianity is a peaceful religion... the curch is not a peaceful, modern , or even sensabile organiseation..its screwed up, the position of pope is not mentioned in the bible and only accoured in the 5th century when a man named him self pope, and said it was in gods name... right. it is possable to belive in christ/muhammads..or most other prophets religions and live a peaceful life with out going near an established organiseation... like the curch..... creepy creepy place, jesus = nice . anyway i dont know the exact place but the koran does state " fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, God does not love transgressors" it seems fairly self defence to me... but i belive christianity , islam and the jewish religion are pretty peaceful on paper, but when people put em into practice, they screw it up with their own sayings and believes eg " what i think God ment to say.."

If we are talking quotes:
'We have just enough religion to hate, but not enough to make us love one another.'

Religion is not evil man is evil. Poison is not evil, the act of givning it to some one could be.
Yet religion is still a man-made fabrication, like it or not. It's organisation and methods are man-made. The aspect of the Divine exists only to justify it's ends. So essentially, religion may not be evil, but it is certainly a powerful tool to meet such ends.

The REAL question is, when are muslims going to pull that metre ruler out of their asses and admit that either the koran needs revision, or shouldn't be take literally?
The thing the written word has been read in different ways. Say for example when Mohamed said wmone should dress modestly. Was he saying they should at least wear a top and put the tassles away? Was he saying no lycra or was he saying cover head to toe and don't be seen.
Some uptight person sat down and said, what he meant by these words was......
That is the problem, for me, with the Islamic faith as practiced, it does not always follow what you or I would see as being the instructions of the Koran. But then again who are we to decide what it means? Saying that I'm sure Mohamed would prefer me to read it and do what I think was right rather than some self appointed preacher.

Yet religion is still a man-made fabrication, like it or not. It's organisation and methods are man-made. The aspect of the Divine exists only to justify it's ends. So essentially, religion may not be evil, but it is certainly a powerful tool to meet such ends.
Now there is a fundamental question, is it man made? Many of the acts of worship are, as they have no mention in the bible or other 'holy' books. But does that mean that religion and god are man made? I don't think the first being true means the second is.

A tool is neither evil nor good, what it was intended to be used for may be, or what us it is actually put may be but that does not make the tool inherently evil.

Now there is a fundamental question, is it man made? Many of the acts of worship are, as they have no mention in the bible or other 'holy' books. But does that mean that religion and god are man made? I don't think the first being true means the second is.
Of course it doesn't. That though is a different matter entirely. Whether or not there is a god does not mean religions actually represent that god. They merely take advantage of it's potential existence. No religion so far has been able to prove conclusively that it's god is the true one.

A tool is neither evil nor good, what it was intended to be used for may be, or what us it is actually put may be but that does not make the tool inherently evil.
I agree that religion is not inherently evil, yet it is still a tool, and can go either way.

I keep on hearing about how Islam is the religion of peace etc. However, the actions of Islamic people seems to say otherwise. Here are just some of the phrases from the Koran that says that Islam is not a religion of peace.

191. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

193. Fight them until "religion is for Allah."


51. Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims.

89. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

101. The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

104. Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. They have no hope from Allah.


12-13. Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous.

14. Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians.

33. Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom.

45. Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers.

51. Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

59. Jews and Christians are evil-livers.

63. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests.

So what do yall think, is Islam really the religion of peace?
This is a bunch of made up bull. First, the Koran is referenced by chapter and verse (like the Bible), not is sequence like what's depicted here. Second, these cited verses are not in the Koran.

If you really want to see what the Koran says, read the Koran Text (http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/)

That being said, I'm agnostic because so many of the inspired parts of religion always get twisted to serve the purpose of those who seek to manipulate others. Those like the initiator of this thread.

The REAL question is, when are muslims going to pull that metre ruler out of their asses and admit that either the koran needs revision, or shouldn't be take literally?

To be pedantic, only fundamentalist sects literally accept the dictations of the Koran, a paucity in comparison to the more reasonable Islamic fellows who accept that the Koran is not fundamentally true.

So is christianity.

At leaset in Chrisitianity there aren't membership dues adn tests to see what level christian you are. And don't both bringing up tithing and collection because they are donations and not a requirement.

At leaset in Chrisitianity there aren't membership dues adn tests to see what level christian you are. And don't both bringing up tithing and collection because they are donations and not a requirement.

Oh yes, the Catholic church requires no tithes per annum, or, no, they are not compulsory, however, hell awaits the reticent...:rolleyes:

Oh yes, the Catholic church requires no tithes per annum, or, no, they are not compulsory, however, hell awaits the reticent...:rolleyes:
The Lord is merciful ;) :p

. The fact that it is the only major religion that advocates revenge for percieved wrongs, and lacks a centeral authority leaves it entirely open to the interpretation of the local authority.

A vitally important point that most discussions on Islam, or Islamism, miss entirely.

Islamism was not always without a central authority (and one that held a fairly tight leash). It has had several dynasties of Caliphs since its inception...religious and political authority figures rolled into one, who balanced the purely religious outlook of the Mullahs and Imams when it came to maintaining discipline, ensuring law and order, keeping up a viable administration and being pragmatic in dealings with the non-Islamic world.

The Caliphate was originally based out of Baghdad, moved to Saudi Arabia in later centuries, and after the rise of the Ottomans, to Istanbul. All the way up to 1918 there was still a central authority figure in Islam... the Ottoman Sultan, who could be dealt with in the same way the Pope could.

It was the British and French, dividing up the eviscerated Ottoman Empire following WW I, who determined to extinguish the Caliphate in the interests of perpetuating their colonial power. Devoid now of a central authority figure, religious authority devolved to various purely religious leaders... of the Salafis, Deobandis, Wahhabis and what have you.

The situation was further aggravated by the Americans who foisted rulers like the Shah on Iran, squashing the native democracy of that state, and (going with Zbignew Brzezinski's bright idea) determined to use religious fundamentalists as proxy warriors against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Now you had a society that was (a) devoid of any central authority or Caliph, (b) Militant from the fulminations of their Mullahs, and (c) equipped with weapons they knew how to use. Not to mention poor, illiterate and angry at being denied political freedom and economic opportunity by Western proxy rulers like the Saudi Royal Family. So that when the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia began to exercise extra-constitutional authority and sponsor terrorism everywhere, there was no Caliph (with the backing of Quranic authority) to stop them, or for the West to deal with. There was only the tyrannical, greedy and (in the eyes of devout Muslims) spiritually bankrupt Saudi government, foisted on an unwilling population.

The Lord is merciful ;) :p

On a sliding scale akin to progressive tax, relating to one's religios genorisity:p

It was the British and French, dividing up the eviscerated Ottoman Empire following WW I, who determined to extinguish the Caliphate in the interests of perpetuating their colonial power. Devoid now of a central authority figure, religious authority devolved to various purely religious leaders... of the Salafis, Deobandis, Wahhabis and what have you.
Yet the Ottoman Empire was no angel; it itself had destroyed the Byzantine Empire and waged war against Western powers for centuries. It provoked a lot of aggression towards itself, especially from Russia.


Now you had a society that was (a) devoid of any central authority or Caliph, (b) Militant from the fulminations of their Mullahs, and (c) equipped with weapons they knew how to use. Not to mention poor, illiterate and angry at being denied political freedom and economic opportunity by Western proxy rulers like the Saudi Royal Family. So that when the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia began to exercise extra-constitutional authority and sponsor terrorism everywhere, there was no Caliph (with the backing of Quranic authority) to stop them, or for the West to deal with. There was only the tyrannical, greedy and (in the eyes of devout Muslims) spiritually bankrupt Saudi government, foisted on an unwilling population.
Then why not create a new central authority? I don't understand why whine about something if there are means of remedying the situation. Instead of focusing hatred against the West, maybe more moderately minded Muslims should be thinking of ways Islam can be re-centralised.

On a sliding scale akin to progressive tax, relating to one's religios genorisity:p
The Lord ain't no fool :p

It was the British and French, dividing up the eviscerated Ottoman Empire following WW I, who determined to extinguish the Caliphate in the interests of perpetuating their colonial power. Devoid now of a central authority figure, religious authority devolved to various purely religious leaders... of the Salafis, Deobandis, Wahhabis and what have you.

The situation was further aggravated by the Americans who foisted rulers like the Shah on Iran, squashing the native democracy of that state, and (going with Zbignew Brzezinski's bright idea) determined to use religious fundamentalists as proxy warriors against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Now you had a society that was (a) devoid of any central authority or Caliph, (b) Militant from the fulminations of their Mullahs, and (c) equipped with weapons they knew how to use. Not to mention poor, illiterate and angry at being denied political freedom and economic opportunity by Western proxy rulers like the Saudi Royal Family. So that when the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia began to exercise extra-constitutional authority and sponsor terrorism everywhere, there was no Caliph (with the backing of Quranic authority) to stop them, or for the West to deal with. There was only the tyrannical, greedy and (in the eyes of devout Muslims) spiritually bankrupt Saudi government, foisted on an unwilling population.

After reading this entire thread, I commend you for bringing this up. Coming from a warrior nation myself (U.S.), I know how infrequently we talk about the evils of the world in terms of how we are responsible or how we could be helpful. Instead, we take a competitive stance and talk as if the high and mighty will always be on our side and feel free to point out pitfalls and evil doers until we have justified our actions. I attribute this to our born again leadership.

I feel that the original posting was a valid attempt to rationalize the heavy dose of us=good, them=evil that's been sold. This is why hearing that most muslims are peaceful is hard to swallow. Imagine being an Iranian and having a debate on whether compassionate people exist in the Netherlands right now. (In light of the cartoons).

Besides, How would we 'win' the big game on terrorism if we first have to think about whether the bad guys are good or merely seeking a justifiable (in their eyes) revenge - disinfranchised by the inequalities that exist in our world. That's too much. I think most of the people in the U.S. take this stance: "It is for us to decide who can be strong." And if they want to take us on, they should play by our rules. That is where the real frustration lies.

Yet the Ottoman Empire was no angel; it itself had destroyed the Byzantine Empire and waged war against Western powers for centuries. It provoked a lot of aggression towards itself, especially from Russia.

I'm not talking about rights and wrongs, or angels and devils here. The Ottomans were as colonialist as the British or anyone else in Europe.

I'm merely pointing out that the Anglo-French decision to remove the Caliphate (despite a popular "Khilafat" agitation throughout the Muslim world) and replace Turkish authority with a secular modernist like Kemal Ataturk instead, had its ill-effects that are still being felt by the West today.



Then why not create a new central authority? I don't understand why whine about something if there are means of remedying the situation. Instead of focusing hatred against the West, maybe more moderately minded Muslims should be thinking of ways Islam can be re-centralised.

Way, way easier said than done. The point is this. Today there is no middle ground. The political landscape has been hijacked, either by Islamic fundamentalists (of whom "moderately-minded" Muslims are afraid, and you would be too)... or by people like the Saudi Royals or Pakistan's General Musharraf, opportunistic tyrants who ally themselves with the West while denying their people any freedom of political expression or economic opportunity.

Islamism has, in a sense, replaced Marxism in the Muslim world. It is perceived as the ideology on the side of the underdog... calling for social justice and equality, it is almost exactly like Marxism except that it believes in the absolute authority of Allah instead of being atheist. This accounts for its wide popularity in a region where there are huge gulfs between rich elites and poverty-stricken masses.

This is why, when the Iraqis or anyone else are given the opportunity to "vote freely", they will vote in an Islamist government in place of a Western-supported tyrant. There is no "third force" whom the Western-supported tyrants will not jail and behead, or whom the Islamists will not kidnap and behead. Far from thinking about putting a central authority back in place, moderate-minded Muslims in their own countries dare not even speak up for themselves.

The situation is not being helped by the West, which interferes relentlessly in Middle Eastern affairs in order to secure its energy interests. The West now cannot *afford* to allow true democracy to take root in the Middle East, because if they withdraw support to their tyrannical puppets, Islamists will take over. Everybody involved is between a rock and a hard place.

I'm not talking about rights and wrongs, or angels and devils here. The Ottomans were as colonialist as the British or anyone else in Europe.

I'm merely pointing out that the Anglo-French decision to remove the Caliphate (despite a popular "Khilafat" agitation throughout the Muslim world) and replace Turkish authority with a secular modernist like Kemal Ataturk instead, had its ill-effects that are still being felt by the West today.

Depends on whose viewpoint you are looking at. Many Turkish leaders were happy about it because it freed their state up from religious influences (as superficial as the truth of this may be). Although yes, I can imagine this causing huge problems for Islam outside of Turkey.

The situation is not being helped by the West, which interferes relentlessly in Middle Eastern affairs in order to secure its energy interests. The West now cannot *afford* to allow true democracy to take root in the Middle East, because if they withdraw support to their tyrannical puppets, Islamists will take over. Everybody involved is between a rock and a hard place.
The only thing that will end this is ending oil dependence then. The West should be aiming to do so, and begin ignoring attacks against such advances made by powerful corporations. Then it should try and help out the situation in the Middle East. As for unifying Islam, I find it to be as pointless a goal as trying to unify Christianity. People say Christianity has central organisation; it does not. It's various denominations do though. Christianity as a whole is very much split up. The only churches with any prospect of reunification are the Orthodox and Catholic ones at this point in time, and even that is asking for too much. If this "clash of civilisations" does go ahead, however, I think that might foment a reunification of both Islam and Christianity. Time will tell.

Im amazed on how this thread turned from islam to taxes and such. I guess thats the way eople work.

In the argument on any peaceful religion what about confuciuism (sp)? Maybe i just have no idea but i never really heard anything violent about that.

Islam = religion-based imperialism

Islam = religion-based imperialism
In it's original form, yes. Nowadays it's become too expansive for this to hold true, at least on a larger scale.

In it's original form, yes. Nowadays it's become too expansive for this to hold true, at least on a larger scale.
The problem is, most Muslims around the world feel oppressed, because the world isn't that way anymore.

They feel that Islam is "under attack" by the forces of Western culture and belief.

It's enough to make a few of them angry enough to kill us.

The core principle of Islam is to spread it, whether the other people like it or not. Christianity, by comparison, seems to have mellowed over the years - now the Christians want to spread Christianity, but only by annoying you with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons until you cry "Uncle!".

The reason that they were so upset about the pics of Mohammed is because they view us as "dhimmi" - and as "dhimmi" we should never commit blasphemy against Islam - in their eyes, it's illegal, and under their laws, they can kill us for it. The fact that we aren't Muslim never enters into it - they run the world for Allah, and they have license to kill dhimmi who don't know their place.

The reason that they were so upset about the pics of Mohammed is because they view us as "dhimmi" - and as "dhimmi" we should never commit blasphemy against Islam - in their eyes, it's illegal, and under their laws, they can kill us for it. The fact that we aren't Muslim never enters into it - they run the world for Allah, and they have license to kill dhimmi who don't know their place.
They should remember though that the Dhimmi are not impassive objects who will merely bend to their every whim, and definitely do not share this belief, nor are they willing to tip-toe around Islam just because fundamentalists so decree.

They should remember though that the Dhimmi are not impassive objects who will merely bend to their every whim, and definitely do not share this belief, nor are they willing to tip-toe around Islam just because fundamentalists so decree.

Hence the problem. Our uppity attitude is noticed - yes, it is noticed!

They take it as an attack on them - the mere act of not believing.

Hence the problem. Our uppity attitude is noticed - yes, it is noticed!

They take it as an attack on them - the mere act of not believing.
How very Dark Age Christian :p

Fuck this , Every religion is a starter for war , religion makes people think there different from each other and for that people start wars , we cant talk all night or we can tell the truth and say that no religon is a religon of peace

The core principle of Islam is to spread it, whether the other people like it or not. Christianity, by comparison, seems to have mellowed over the years - now the Christians want to spread Christianity, but only by annoying you with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons until you cry "Uncle!".

The reason that they were so upset about the pics of Mohammed is because they view us as "dhimmi" - and as "dhimmi" we should never commit blasphemy against Islam - in their eyes, it's illegal, and under their laws, they can kill us for it. The fact that we aren't Muslim never enters into it - they run the world for Allah, and they have license to kill dhimmi who don't know their place.

You seem to know a lot about Islam. Can you provide quotes from the Koran to back these statements up?

Fuck this , Every religion is a starter for war , religion makes people think there different from each other and for that people start wars , we cant talk all night or we can tell the truth and say that no religon is a religon of peace


What about confucism:confused:

What about confucism:confused:
Confucianism. :)

You seem to know a lot about Islam. Can you provide quotes from the Koran to back these statements up?
Islam is not just "the Koran", for starters. Although treatment of non-believers is prescribed in the Koran.

http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_history_dhimmitude.php

That's a pretty comprehensive resource about dhimmitude.

If you ask Aryavartha, I'm sure he can verify that's the way they think in his country.

You ignore the concept of dhimmitude at your peril. Either you're going to pay the tax and respect them (while they have no obligation to respect your beliefs), or you can resist. There aren't any other choices that they'll give you.

Islam is not just "the Koran", for starters. Although treatment of non-believers is prescribed in the Koran.

http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_history_dhimmitude.php

That's a pretty comprehensive resource about dhimmitude.

If you ask Aryavartha, I'm sure he can verify that's the way they think in his country.

You ignore the concept of dhimmitude at your peril. Either you're going to pay the tax and respect them (while they have no obligation to respect your beliefs), or you can resist. There aren't any other choices that they'll give you.

So, I guess you can't provide quotes from the Koran. Okay. Cool. Can you at least tell me who they are?

Yes and No, yes because it says so, no because it's a religion.

Religion causes conflict by it's very nature, so a religion of peace is a contradiction.

So, I guess you can't provide quotes from the Koran. Okay. Cool. Can you at least tell me who they are?
That website he gave you contains substantial references. Any one of those that are well researched should be able to sate your curiosity.

You ignore the concept of dhimmitude at your peril. Either you're going to pay the tax and respect them (while they have no obligation to respect your beliefs), or you can resist. There aren't any other choices that they'll give you.
I take it it's their version of the Crusades.

So, I guess you can't provide quotes from the Koran. Okay. Cool. Can you at least tell me who they are?
So, I guess you're going to dismiss all the work of prominent scholars who study Islamic history. Good for you!

"They" are nearly all Muslims in places like India and all of the Middle East. Most Muslims who are not living in Western countries (and some who are).

Here's a good explanation from another respected authority, Bernard Lewis.

The overarching principle in the treatment of dhimmis is encapsulated in the statement: "Islam is exalted, and nothing is exalted above it".

It is only very recently that some defenders of Islam began to assert that their society in the past accorded equal status to non-Muslims. No such claim is made by spokesman for resurgent Islam, and historically there is no doubt that they are right. Traditional Islamic societies neither accorded such equality nor pretended that they were so doing. Indeed, in the old order, this would have been regarded not as a merit but as a dereliction of duty. How could one accord the same treatment to those who follow the true faith and those who willfully reject it? This would be a theological as well as a logical absurdity.

What about confucism:confused:
religions like that may want to live peacefully but there are always cults and religions that will dislike them because they dont believe in the same shit

Confucianism. :)


thx..im spelling challenged. At least someone pays attention to me :p

religions like that may want to live peacefully but there are always cults and religions that will dislike them because they dont believe in the same shit

Everyone loves confucious!! he had a bitchen beard

So, I guess you're going to dismiss all the work of prominent scholars who study Islamic history. Good for you!

"They" are nearly all Muslims in places like India and all of the Middle East. Most Muslims who are not living in Western countries (and some who are).

Here's a good explanation from another respected authority, Bernard Lewis.

Well, I perused several of the links from the website you linked to, and while there were articles showing religious intolerance in countries that have Islamic governments, it was never shown that this intolerance was caused by Islamic beliefs or clearly expressed in the Koran. Saudi Arabia is an example. Is it because they are Muslim, or because they are oppresive autocrats? Your links do not clearly answer this question.

Secondly, you are assuming that Muslims are a homogenous group and that they all feel that this concept of dhimmitude is more important than respecting religious diversity. I would call this a racist viewpoint, if Islam was a race. Does the word religionist exist?

Here in the US, CAIR has been providing copies of the Qu'ran free to anybody who asks. I got mine the other day -- beautiful book, by the way, and not at all what I was expecting -- and started reading it. It has the original Arabic, Arabic written in an Anglicized format, and finally an English translation. It seems to be very well done.

I have a question, though, that I'd like to address to any Muslim on the board. The Introduction says quite clearly that I am incapable of fully understanding the Qu'ran unless I read it in the original Arabic. The implication seems to be that, since I am approaching it from an Occidental mindset, I will never be able to understand it properly.

Given that, am I wasting my time? What does that say to any Westerner who wants to read and truly understand Islam?

Well, I perused several of the links from the website you linked to, and while there were articles showing religious intolerance in countries that have Islamic governments, it was never shown that this intolerance was caused by Islamic beliefs or clearly expressed in the Koran. Saudi Arabia is an example. Is it because they are Muslim, or because they are oppresive autocrats? Your links do not clearly answer this question.

Secondly, you are assuming that Muslims are a homogenous group and that they all feel that this concept of dhimmitude is more important than respecting religious diversity. I would call this a racist viewpoint, if Islam was a race. Does the word religionist exist?


Just because I can't find the direct quote in the Koran doesn't mean it's not an Islamic belief. There are many texts that they use to establish their laws - the whole concept of Islamic law is not all written in the Koran, yet Islamic nations rule themselves by these laws, now and in history.

It is not racist to say that Islam has a concept of two types of people - believers and non-believers.

It also has a concept of the world - Dar al-Islam (the world under Islam), and everywhere else. It is a duty for Moslems to make the whole world Dar al-Islam, and to subjugate non-believers.

They have a choice - they can convert to Islam, or they can keep their religion and their lives by paying a tax, or they can die. If they keep their religion, by no means will they be truly treated as equals.

As an example, under sharia law, if a Moslem rapes a woman who is a non-believer, if no Moslem witnesses were present, the rape NEVER took place, even if there are dhimmi witnesses.

It's a long, long, tradition that is currently the standard in all countries under sharia law. Muslims in those countries are used to it - it's not racism to say so.

It is profound ignorance to say that they all wish to respect our way of life - or did you miss the riots and embassy burnings?

oh lord, not this thing again....

Islam is a religion.

What kind of religion it is, depends on what kind of follower you are looking at. Whether it is a religion of peace or war or stupidity or whatever depends on the followers. I know peaceful muslims, I know violent muslims, I know stupid muslims..and so on.

Having said that, verses from Qur'an can be easily interpreted to incite violence against kaffirs. We see that all the time.

That needs to be ended. Either muslims end it or kaffirs end it.

Here in the US, CAIR has been providing copies of the Qu'ran free to anybody who asks. I got mine the other day -- beautiful book, by the way, and not at all what I was expecting -- and started reading it. It has the original Arabic, Arabic written in an Anglicized format, and finally an English translation. It seems to be very well done.

I have a question, though, that I'd like to address to any Muslim on the board. The Introduction says quite clearly that I am incapable of fully understanding the Qu'ran unless I read it in the original Arabic. The implication seems to be that, since I am approaching it from an Occidental mindset, I will never be able to understand it properly.

Given that, am I wasting my time? What does that say to any Westerner who wants to read and truly understand Islam?


Like most texts originally written in another language, it's subtleties and nuances are left out if you aren't a native speaker. In fact, for most original texts, if you aren't a student of the language of the time period in which it was written, you're going to lose a lot of the meaning.

The Koran is not the only book in Islam. If you want to understand Islamic law, for instance, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. Same for jihad (Sunnis and Shiites, for example, have completely separate ideas about jihad).

All religions have crazy people who take believing in them way too far. Dont say the buddhists never did anything crazy... in the early 90's terrorists who were buddhists and also enviromentalists put anthrax on trains in japan. So i mean you cant say that any religion doesnt spawn some wacos here and there but im not here to choose anyones religion or anything like that but im just sayin all religions including my own has its share of problems

Secondly, you are assuming that Muslims are a homogenous group and that they all feel that this concept of dhimmitude is more important than respecting religious diversity.

Islam, like almost all religions, does not respect religious diversity. Muslims may respect it but they do it only in places where they are a minority.

Btw, there are Jiziya taxes even in this day.

A blogger from his visit to Peshawar, Pakistan.
http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2006/02/jaziya.html
I’m sure you know how Islam is. You can do one of three things in the tribal agencies. One, you pay jaziya. Two, you embrace Islam. Three, you prepare to die. We pay jaziya.

That’s Taranjit Singh, a Sikh from Peshawar telling me about how the Sikhs of Peshawar get by..

The texts speak for themselves. It calls for a shitload of violence. The whole "religion of peace" thing really is wishful thinking.

Just because I can't find the direct quote in the Koran doesn't mean it's not an Islamic belief. There are many texts that they use to establish their laws - the whole concept of Islamic law is not all written in the Koran, yet Islamic nations rule themselves by these laws, now and in history.

What other sources are used to define Islamic law? Are these required to be followed by all Muslims, or is it only Muslims in certain regions or denominations?

It is not racist to say that Islam has a concept of two types of people - believers and non-believers.

You are entirely correct. Howeverthat is not what you said. The quote I am referring to is this:

"They" are nearly all Muslims in places like India and all of the Middle East. Most Muslims who are not living in Western countries (and some who are).

It would appear to be a generalised and somewhat demeaning statement of a group based solely on their religion.

It also has a concept of the world - Dar al-Islam (the world under Islam), and everywhere else. It is a duty for Moslems to make the whole world Dar al-Islam, and to subjugate non-believers.

I always wondered what that phrase meant. WhileI can not condone or excuse such behaviour, it is not without precedent. Two examples that come to mind are the forcedseparation and conversion of Native American families under christian rule, and of course, Manifest Destiny.

They have a choice - they can convert to Islam, or they can keep their religion and their lives by paying a tax, or they can die. If they keep their religion, by no means will they be truly treated as equals.

As an example, under sharia law, if a Moslem rapes a woman who is a non-believer, if no Moslem witnesses were present, the rape NEVER took place, even if there are dhimmi witnesses.

It's a long, long, tradition that is currently the standard in all countries under sharia law. Muslims in those countries are used to it - it's not racism to say so.

I have no doubt as to the veracity of this statement. What would be interesting to find out is whether this set of laws is based on the teachings of Mohammed, or if it was added on by other groups later who may have been intent on consolidating a power base. Again, christianity provides a precedent for such behaviour.

It is profound ignorance to say that they all wish to respect our way of life - or did you miss the riots and embassy burnings?

Yes, that would be an ignorant thing to say. I'm lucky I didn't say anything that could even remotely be construed that way.

I have no doubt as to the veracity of this statement. What would be interesting to find out is whether this set of laws is based on the teachings of Mohammed, or if it was added on by other groups later who may have been intent on consolidating a power base. Again, christianity provides a precedent for such behaviour.


It only matters to apologists for Islam whether something is written in the Koran. There are many, many books that govern the behavior of vast groups of Muslims.

For instance, the books written by Zangi during the First Crusade are the benchmark for the conduct of jihad for Sunnis - not that all have read them, but the masses are indoctrinated by their precepts in the madrassas.

Islam, like Christianity, is an imperialist religion. However, Christianity underwent a time of Reformation, and the societies in which Christianity was dominant underwent a period of Enlightenment.

No corresponding events have taken place in Islam - and these things are sorely overdue.

Since no one seems to want to actually look anything up for verses from the Qu'ran: your one stop shop for all your favorite verses: cruelty in the quran(skeptics annotated) (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)

Yes, the quotes from the OP and similar others are in the Qu'ran. Yes, it repeatedly says for believers to kill unbelievers, by unbelievers meaning anyone who's not Muslim. This isn't even going into what's in the Hadith and other Muslim texts.

Here's a little comparison about the relative cruelty in the Bible and the Qu'ran:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/bible_quran.html

All three of the Abrahamic religions have plenty of blood on their hands, and the atrocities committed by believers can easily be justified by their religious texts. The moderate believers pick and choose the touchy-feely verses and say theirs is a religion of peace, and the extremists pick and choose the oppressive & cruel verses and prove otherwise.

Islam, like almost all religions, does not respect religious diversity. Muslims may respect it but they do it only in places where they are a minority.

I strongly suspect that you and DeepKimchi know more about Islam than me. However, I think it is a generalisation to say that all, or even most, Muslims do not respect religious diversity. I have never been to a country where Islam is the dominant religion, so I can not say with any authority how Muslims in such a situation would react to the idea of religious diversity in such a situation. I do not think they would all react in the same way.

Islam, like Christianity, is an imperialist religion. However, Christianity underwent a time of Reformation, and the societies in which Christianity was dominant underwent a period of Enlightenment.

No corresponding events have taken place in Islam - and these things are sorely overdue.

Thank you for the information regarding other Islamic texts. Do you know where I could get an overview of these texts, i.e. a beginner's introduction?

In terms of long range solutions to the current madness, how would one instigate a Reformation or Enlightenment in Muslim societies?

Hi, this is my first posting and I couldn't be bothered to read all the postings so forgive me if someone has already stated this but from all the ramblings re religion and whose religion is the most fair and blah blah.

1. If you look at all religions do they not state the same basic morals like love one another, don't commit any crimes, live life happily and so on.
2. Historically, religion was 'invented' to control the masses who were uneducated and therefore afraid of the unknown. The High Preists could then warn about crops dying, your first born dying, your wife turning into a witch etc. if you did not do as they said.
3. No religion is peaceful. Religion was made by man and therefore you can not blame men for misinterpreting religion. Every religion has a statement that you can go to war if necessary.

I'm a white western aetheist and I live in scotland. I believe in morals and don't need someone else to tell me how to live. However, I respect anyones beliefs and if they read from their beliefs a peaceful happy existence then we should be happy for them.

Thank you for the information regarding other Islamic texts. Do you know where I could get an overview of these texts, i.e. a beginner's introduction?

In terms of long range solutions to the current madness, how would one instigate a Reformation or Enlightenment in Muslim societies?
Ultimately by bringing democracy to them and shattering the political institutions which support more extremist versions of Islam. This would, of course, require the removement of any financial interests in the Middle East, but it's perhaps the only way.

Ultimately by bringing democracy to them and shattering the political institutions which support more extremist versions of Islam. This would, of course, require the removement of any financial interests in the Middle East, but it's perhaps the only way.

"Bringing democracy to them"?

Ultimately by bringing democracy to them and shattering the political institutions which support more extremist versions of Islam. This would, of course, require the removement of any financial interests in the Middle East, but it's perhaps the only way.

Odd. I don't believe that this is how it occured in Christian societies.

"Bringing democracy to them"?
Yes. Removing puppet leaders and allowing them to set up their own states. Also, establishing the freedom of speech. Most have little to no democracy.

A related interesting question is whether Islam is essentially a fundamentalist religion, i.e. does 'moderate' Islam actually exist?

You can generally distinguish Christian moderates from fundamentalists by looking at how they view the bible. The latter considers it the inerrant word of God whilst the former takes a more realistic, intelligent view.

As far as I am aware, all Muslims view the Koran as the true word of God (as revealed to Mohammed) and to suggest otherwise is outright blasphemy. Whatever it may actually say in the Koran, every muslim essentially believes it to be divine instruction; much more persuasive for the average believer than all that imprecise 'inspired by god' bible rhetoric.

This is not the same thing as extremism, which suggests a willingness to act upon the strength of one's fundamentalist priniciples, but it does offer a clue as to why Islam inspires such hostility to any challenge/slight/insult its followers may perceive.

The Koran suffers from a deficit of academic study, especially with regard to its origins, compared with other 'holy' texts. The main reason for this is the fear of violent or lethal retribution to be visited upon any academic seeking to conduct any sort of critical study, i.e. any analysis which is likely to offer an alternative view with regard to the true origins of the Koran.

I thought I'd double check those quotes, so I broke open my copy of the translation of the Quran. I'm putting the surahs in the order he (the OP) put them in.

191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah (polytheism, atheism, apostasy) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-alHaram (sanctuary at Makka), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (polytheism, atheism, apostasy) and all and every kind of worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (polytheists, wrong doers, etc.)
Anyhow I wanted to write more but I can't find which part of the Quran the rest of the quotes are in as they are referenced incorrectly, he puts the number of the surah (verse) but not the part its located in. However, if those two verses describe a peacefull religion, wtf would a warlike one be like?

51

Look at the Bolded text. It dosen't ask that us lot get wiped out completly, only if we fight them. And frankly, having a defense dosen't make you a militant. So as long as we accept them and get on with our lives, no one will die.

But seriously, Commuism was ment to be relaxed equalty. Of course, it didn't turn out like that in most ways. But look at Cuba and Vietnam, you don't see mass exicutions of people, plus no rebelions.

Remember the stuff I said about Vietnam, Cuba and Communism isn't the point.

Odd. I don't believe that this is how it occured in Christian societies.
This is a very different world though. What happened with Christianity is that the Enlightenment began exposing the Church and weakening it's views and justifications for its actions. This consequently led to the fall of many regimes which relied on the power of the Church. With Islam there is little room for free speech to crawl in, and there is no apparent desire to instigate an Enlightenment.

So what do yall think, is Islam really the religion of peace?

Not only is Islam not a "religion of peace," it's not a "religion" at all. It's an evil political ideology that incorporates bits and pieces stolen from Judaism and Christianity along with plenty of primitive Arab superstition and paganism, pretends to have divine authority, presumes to control every last aspect of the lives of its minions, and was invented to justify and motivate 7th century Arab imperialism.

I have studied both the Koran and the Hadith, and I would rather read Hitler's Mein Kampf. At least Hitler didn't attribute his evil to God Himself.

The following specific teachings come from just the first nine suras of the so-called immutable word of God as set forth in the Koran (quotations taken from "Everyman's The Koran", translated by J.M. Rodwell, available on Amazon.com; emphasis added):

Sura 9:5 (Medina verses): "And when the sacred months are passed, KILL those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and SEIZE THEM, BESIEGE THEM, AND LAY WAIT FOR THEM WITH EVERY KIND OF AMBUSH; but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful." [God sanctions terrorism and forced conversion.]

Sura 9:123: "Believers! WAGE WAR against such of the infidels as are YOUR NEIGHBORS, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him."

Sura 5:19 (Medina verses): "INFIDELS now are they who say, "Verily God is the Messiah ibn Maryam (son of Mary)!"

Sura 5:76: "INFIDELS now are they who say, 'God is the Messiah, Son of Mary;' for the Messiah said, 'O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' Whoever shall JOIN OTHER GODS WITH GOD, God shall forbid him the Garden, and his abode shall be the Fire; and the wicked shall have no helpers."

Sura 3:27 (Medina verses): "Let not believers take infidels for their friends rather than believers: whoso shall do this hath nothing to hope from God . . . . "

Sura 5:56: "Believers! take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If any one of you taketh them for his friends, he surely is one of them! God will not guide the EVIL DOERS."

Sura 4:91 (Medina verses): "They desire that ye should be infidels as they are infidels, and that ye should be alike. Take therefore none of them for friends, till they have FLED THEIR HOMES FOR THE CAUSE OF GOD. If they turn back, then SEIZE THEM, AND SLAY THEM WHEREVER YE FIND THEM; BUT TAKE NONE OF THEM AS FRIENDS OR HELPERS . . . ."

Sura 4:92: "Ye will find others who seek to gain your confidence as well as that of their own people: So oft as they return to sedition, they shall be overthrown in it: But if they leave you not, nor propose terms of peace to you nor withhold their hands, then SEIZE THEM, AND SLAY THEM, WHEREVER YE FIND THEM. Over these have we given you undoubted power."

Sura 4:97: "Those believers who sit at home free from trouble, and those who DO VALIANTLY IN THE CAUSE OF GOD WITH THEIR SUBSTANCE AND THEIR PERSONS, shall not be treated alike. God hath assigned to those who contend earnestly with their persons and with their substance, a rank above those who sit at home. . . ."

Sura 4:102: "And when ye go forth to WAR in the land, it shall be no crime in you to cut short your prayers, if ye fear lest the infidels come upon you; Verily, THE INFIDELS ARE YOUR UNDOUBTED ENEMIES!"

Sura 4:76: "Let those then fight on the path of God, who BARTER THIS PRESENT LIFE for that which is to come: for whoever FIGHTETH on God's path, whether he be slain or conquer, we will in the end give him a great reward."

Sura 4:78: "They who believe, fight on the path of God; and THEY WHO BELIEVE NOT, fight on the path of Thagout: FIGHT THEREFORE AGAINST THE FRIENDS OF SATAN. . . ."

Sura 3:151-152: "And if ye shall be slain or die on the path of God, then pardon from God and mercy is better than all your amassings;
"For if ye die or be slain, verily unto God shall ye be gathered."

Sura 4:38: "Men are SUPERIOR TO WOMEN on account of the qualities with which God hath gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God hath of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness ye have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and SCOURGE THEM: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" [Domestic violence against women specifically approved.]

Sura 4:28: "Forbidden to you also are married women, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE IN YOUR HANDS AS SLAVES: This is the law of God for you. . . . " ["God" approves of Muslim men RAPING enslaved married women!]

Sura 4:29: "And whoever of you is not rich enough to marry free believing women, then let him marry such of your believing maidens AS HAVE FALLEN INTO YOUR HANDS AS SLAVES; God well knoweth your faith . . . ."

Sura 2:91-92 (Medina verses): "SAY [emphasis in original]: Whoso is the enemy of Gabriel--For he it is who by God's leave hath caused the Koran to descend on thy heart, the confirmation of previous revelations, and guidance, and good tidings to the faithful--
"Whoso is an enemy to God or his angels, or to Gabriel, or to Michael, shall have God as his enemy: for verily GOD IS AN ENEMY TO THE INFIDELS."

Note that all of the foregoing quotations are denoted "Medina verses." The Koran is not organized into any logical or coherent sequence. The various suras are organized by length. However, some of the so-called "revelations" came earlier than others. The earlier ones are the "Mecca verses," while the later ones are the "Medina verses." Why is this important? Because the Koran is chock-full of contradictions and reversals. According to Islam, "God" can change His mind at any time! As a result, later revelations cancel out earlier ones with which they are inconsistent or contradictory. So, whenever a Muslim provides a Koranic passage that allegedly preaches peace, or religious tolerance, or "no compulsion in religion," ask him if it's a Mecca verse or a Medina verse. Most likely it will be a Mecca verse.

And don't fall for the "out of context" excuse. Read the text for yourself and ask yourself, "Is there any possible context that could justify such a statement? What kind of "god" could possibly say such a thing?"

My next post will include a few choice examples from the Hadith, the so-called "traditions".

Oh, and remember, if I ran around with a flag with your name on it, doing all sorts of horrible stuff, would that make you evil?

However, I think it is a generalisation to say that all, or even most, Muslims do not respect religious diversity.

Lemme put it this way.

No theist respects religious diversity. They tolerate it where they are a minority because they have no choice.

There are very few spiritual doctrines that respect other religions, as in recognising that a follower of other religion can attain the goal that your religion promises.

Muslims in the west are not representative of mainstream muslims. Muslims who live in minority (less than 30%) are also not representative of mainstream muslims. Once it reaches the threshold of 30%, it is either partition or civil war. That's when demands for shariat courts start.

Shariat is where the fun begins.

I have never been to a country where Islam is the dominant religion, so I can not say with any authority how Muslims in such a situation would react to the idea of religious diversity in such a situation. I do not think they would all react in the same way.

There are no religious diversity in muslim countries.

Wherever they are 90% and above, there is fight amongst themselves with one group (usually sunnis) oppressing others (usually shias)..for ex Pakistan, Saudi, former Iraq etc. Wherever they are around 30%, there is civil war or seperatism (pre partition India, Kashmir, Lebanon, Southern Thailand..) and only in places where they are like less than 10%, there is peace.

When it comes to 30%, demands for shariat courts start. Usually that is a good indicator.

Not only is Islam not a "religion of peace," it's not a "religion" at all. It's an evil political ideology that incorporates bits and pieces stolen from Judaism and Christianity along with plenty of primitive Arab superstition and paganism, pretends to have divine authority, presumes to control every last aspect of the lives of its minions, and was invented to justify and motivate 7th century Arab imperialism.
This much is true and is the consensus of many historians on how Islam originated. For me to verify the rest, I'd have to read both the Qur'an and other Islamic texts. As well as Mein Kampf. :p

Remember that Allah didn't write the Bible.

Personally, I'd say because he (or any other devine entities, for that matter) didn't exist, but really, unlike some people here, I respect the proper laws of a religion, not what some idoit writes, and not what some idoit does.

As am Muslim, I would like to say that Islam is not, at its heart, a religion of violence, but rather has become so by the the misguided ideals of a lot of muslims. I went to Islamic School on weekends (much like Sunday School for Catholics) and we read translations, had discussions etc, and we learned that in Islam there were only 3 reasons for war and violence, and there were specific guidelines over war. 1st reason is if your people/nation is attacked, you can obviously defend yourself. 2nd reason is if other Muslims are attacked, you can defend them, provided they are not the aggressors, and are holding true with Muslim morals and guidelines for war. 3rd reason is if innocent people of any religion are being unjustly persecuted, then it should be our duty to help them in their strife. The main guidelines of war are that women and children should never be involved, non-combatants left unharmed, battles should not occur near urban/populated areas, battles should not be fought unless absoultely necessary, and enemies who surrender should be treated respectfully.

To reply to the post above this, Muslims do believe in Jesus Christ as a prophet of God, as well as Moses, Abraham, and the rest, except we revere Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) the most for being the last messenger of God, and for bringing the Qur'an to us. We believe that God sent down the Torah/Old Testament and the Qur'an, and that the Bible is also a religious text for us. We believe that Jehovah, the God of the Christians, and Allah, are all the same God, simply with different names attached to Him. The three monotheistic religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all worship the same God, with the same holy books, and the same prophets. What I don't understand is why people don't understand that.

Of course, these are my interpretations from my education, and Muslims around the world obviously break these, don't believe in these. Main point: The Religion has been corrupted by these crazies going around, disobeying not only their religion, but basic human rights. And while some of their causes may have merit, like the Palestinians, their method of acheiving those ends is not right at all. Take the Cartoon and its aftermath. Sure I was personally offended, but I was more offended over the fact that people went crazy and burnt down buildings, rioted, looted, etc. To this end, the local Muslim Association organized a rally against the cartoons, and against the excessive violence of Muslims around the world, as both are seen as detrimental to the cause of global stabilty.

Man...i wrote too much.

When it comes to 30%, demands for shariat courts start. Usually that is a good indicator.
Heh I wonder if this bodes ill for the USA and EU countries with high Muslim populations. :eek:

As am Muslim, I would like to say that Islam is not, at its heart, a religion of violence, but rather has become so by the the misguided ideals of a lot of muslims. I went to Islamic School on weekends (much like Sunday School for Catholics) and we read translations, had discussions etc, and we learned that in Islam there were only 3 reasons for war and violence, and there were specific guidelines over war. 1st reason is if your people/nation is attacked, you can obviously defend yourself. 2nd reason is if other Muslims are attacked, you can defend them, provided they are not the aggressors, and are holding true with Muslim morals and guidelines for war. 3rd reason is if innocent people of any religion are being unjustly persecuted, then it should be our duty to help them in their strife. The main guidelines of war are that women and children should never be involved, non-combatants left unharmed, battles should not occur near urban/populated areas, battles should not be fought unless absoultely necessary, and enemies who surrender should be treated respectfully.

Of course, these are my interpretations from my education, and Muslims around the world obviously break these, don't believe in these. Main point: The Religion has been corrupted by these crazies going around, disobeying not only their religion, but basic human rights. And while some of their causes may have merit, like the Palestinians, their method of acheiving those ends is not right at all. Take the Cartoon and its aftermath. Sure I was personally offended, but I was more offended over the fact that people went crazy and burnt down buildings, rioted, looted, etc. To this end, the local Muslim Association organized a rally against the cartoons, and against the excessive violence of Muslims around the world, as both are seen as detrimental to the cause of global stabilty.

Man...i wrote too much.

Exactly. If I were Muslim, that is what I would think.

Exactly. If I were Muslim, that is what I would think.
As would I.

So what do yall think, is Islam really the religion of peace?

A cursory examination, let alone a detailed study, of the so-called "traditions" reveals the bad character of the "prophet" at every turn of the page. Here are just a few choice excerpts from ONE of the Hadith (see http://www.witness-pioneer.org/hadeeth/ )

From Bukhari Hadith

Muslim hatred and ill-treatment of women exemplified:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 13o: (prostitution endorsed for soldiers!)
Narrated 'Abdullah: We used to participate in the holy battles led by Allah's Apostle and we had nothing (no wives) with us. So we said, "Shall we get ourselves castrated?" He forbade us that and then allowed us to marry women with a temporary contract (2) and recited to us: -- 'O you who believe ! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, but commit no transgression.' (5.87)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: (the "prophet" conveniently declares that his “brother's” little girl is “lawful to marry”!)
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33: (this one really says it all!)
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 121:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 125 (note primitive superstitions concerning eclipses):
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abbas: During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the sun eclipsed. Allah's Apostle offered the prayer of (the) eclipse) and so did the people along with him. He performed a long Qiyam (standing posture) during which Surat-al-Baqara could have been recited; then he performed a pro-longed bowing, then raised his head and stood for a long time which was slightly less than that of the first Qiyam (and recited Qur'an). Then he performed a prolonged bowing again but the period was shorter than the period of the first bowing, then he stood up and then prostrated. Again he stood up, but this time the period of standing was less than the first standing. Then he performed a prolonged bowing but of a lesser duration than the first, then he stood up again for a long time but for a lesser duration than the first. Then he performed a prolonged bowing but of lesser duration than the first, and then he again stood up, and then prostrated and then finished his prayer. By then the sun eclipse had cleared. The Prophet then said, "The sun and the moon are two signs among the signs of Allah, and they do not eclipse because of the death or birth of someone, so when you observe the eclipse, remember Allah (offer the eclipse prayer)." They (the people) said, "O Allah's Apostle! We saw you stretching your hand to take something at this place of yours, then we saw you stepping backward." He said, "I saw Paradise (or Paradise was shown to me), and I stretched my hand to pluck a bunch (of grapes), and had I plucked it, you would have eaten of it as long as this world exists. Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' "

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132: (you can beat your wife or have sex with her, but not both on the same day!)
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."

This one is especially interesting: "god" tells women to trim their bushes!

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 173:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "If you enter (your town) at night (after coming from a journey), do not enter upon your family till the woman whose husband was absent (from the house) shaves her pubic hair and the woman with unkempt hair, combs her hair" Allah's Apostle further said, "(O Jabir!) Seek to have offspring, seek to have offspring!"

Then there's a nice example of the "prophet's" dishonesty:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 129:
Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle took an oath that he would not visit his wives for one month, and he sat in an upper room belonging to him. Then, on the twenty ninth day he came down. It was said, "O Allah's Apostle! You had taken an oath not to visit your wives for one month." He said, "The (present) month is of twenty-nine days."

In other words, "It depends on what the meaning of the word "month" is" (!)

(Now that raises a question: could Bill Clinton have been a closet Muslim?)

There are plenty of other "traditions". Read them and decide for yourselves. Just don't do it on an empty stomach.

A cursory examination, let alone a detailed study, of the so-called "traditions" reveals the bad character of the "prophet" at every turn of the page. Here are just a few choice excerpts from ONE of the Hadith (see http://www.witness-pioneer.org/hadeeth/ )

From Bukhari Hadith

Muslim hatred and ill-treatment of women exemplified:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 13o: (prostitution endorsed for soldiers!)
Narrated 'Abdullah: We used to participate in the holy battles led by Allah's Apostle and we had nothing (no wives) with us. So we said, "Shall we get ourselves castrated?" He forbade us that and then allowed us to marry women with a temporary contract (2) and recited to us: -- 'O you who believe ! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, but commit no transgression.' (5.87)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: (the "prophet" conveniently declares that his “brother's” little girl is “lawful to marry”!)
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33: (this one really says it all!)
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 121:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 125 (note primitive superstitions concerning eclipses):
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abbas: During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the sun eclipsed. Allah's Apostle offered the prayer of (the) eclipse) and so did the people along with him. He performed a long Qiyam (standing posture) during which Surat-al-Baqara could have been recited; then he performed a pro-longed bowing, then raised his head and stood for a long time which was slightly less than that of the first Qiyam (and recited Qur'an). Then he performed a prolonged bowing again but the period was shorter than the period of the first bowing, then he stood up and then prostrated. Again he stood up, but this time the period of standing was less than the first standing. Then he performed a prolonged bowing but of a lesser duration than the first, then he stood up again for a long time but for a lesser duration than the first. Then he performed a prolonged bowing but of lesser duration than the first, and then he again stood up, and then prostrated and then finished his prayer. By then the sun eclipse had cleared. The Prophet then said, "The sun and the moon are two signs among the signs of Allah, and they do not eclipse because of the death or birth of someone, so when you observe the eclipse, remember Allah (offer the eclipse prayer)." They (the people) said, "O Allah's Apostle! We saw you stretching your hand to take something at this place of yours, then we saw you stepping backward." He said, "I saw Paradise (or Paradise was shown to me), and I stretched my hand to pluck a bunch (of grapes), and had I plucked it, you would have eaten of it as long as this world exists. Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' "

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132: (you can beat your wife or have sex with her, but not both on the same day!)
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."

This one is especially interesting: "god" tells women to trim their bushes!

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 173:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "If you enter (your town) at night (after coming from a journey), do not enter upon your family till the woman whose husband was absent (from the house) shaves her pubic hair and the woman with unkempt hair, combs her hair" Allah's Apostle further said, "(O Jabir!) Seek to have offspring, seek to have offspring!"

Then there's a nice example of the "prophet's" dishonesty:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 129:
Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle took an oath that he would not visit his wives for one month, and he sat in an upper room belonging to him. Then, on the twenty ninth day he came down. It was said, "O Allah's Apostle! You had taken an oath not to visit your wives for one month." He said, "The (present) month is of twenty-nine days."

In other words, "It depends on what the meaning of the word "month" is" (!)

(Now that raises a question: could Bill Clinton have been a closet Muslim?)

There are plenty of other "traditions". Read them and decide for yourselves. Just don't do it on an empty stomach.

Nor Allah or Mohammed(pbuh) did write that. It's like how John, Matt, Mark and Luke seemed to bend the truth a bit.

Also, Mohammed(pbuh) wasn't the onlt prothet. If I remember correctly, Jesus was, under a different name, also a Prothet of Allah, as were most of the prothets.

Wait a sec, dosen't this mean the People who follow these Prothets are not non-believers?

Looks like Islam links with Judaism and Christianity.

(Dam! I forgot to add the (pbuh)s!)

As a muslim, I have to say that in the schools that I've been educated, it has been instructed to us, to all children, that Islam respects other monotheic religions who share the concept of Allah - one God. In the islamic Bible Qoran, the tales of the Jewish and Christian are told, and never ever they are shown as the targets of true muslims.

I think, talking about terrorism around the world and linking it to Islam - or any other religion - is illogical. Yes, a big majority of them are muslim, but do you really think that those terrorists are attacking christians because they are christian? Is this simply a religion issue? No. The terrorists are poor, the victims are rich. There is war raging on on their countries, war initiated by mostly those countries. Those are the real reasons, Islam is used in order to blind people and to lure them into helping the terrorist, the real sinner from what I learned in those lessons about religion.

I live in Turkey since 24 years, there have always been islamic people around me but no muslim or islamic book has yet told me to go find some non-muslim and kick their heretic ass :) please :)

5 minutes from my school, there is a synagogue just next to a mosque. It has been there since, 400, 500 years.

Nor Allah or Mohammed writ that. It's like how John, Matt, Mark and Luke seemed to bent the truth a bit.

Also, Mohammed wasn't the onlt prothet. If I remember correctly, Jesus was, under a different name, also a Prothet of Allah, as were most of the prothets.

Wait a sec, dosen't this mean the People who follow these Prothets are not non-believers?

Looks like Islam links with Judaism and Christianity.
What about religions which indeed have no link with the concept of one god?

you know I've been looking through my Qur'an translation for the last hour, disputing point by point New Mittani's 'quotes', but I realized that doing so would gain me nothing, as the sensible people here understand that pretty much anything can be posted on the internet, and can be made to look credible. If Mittani wants to believe that Islam is a religion based on hate, rape, murder, etc, that is his/her choice. I am just saying that, yes, there are fanatics in Islam who do read the sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) and God's word like Mittani does, as a license to spread their own authority and agenda. But aren't those people in every religion? Look at the 30 Year's War between Protestants and Catholics. People do crazy things in the name of religion, and people abuse religion by using it as a tool to a temporal end, rather than using it to better themselves. They take religion from the personal, and take it to the external. Islam is a very introspective religion. the word Jihad literally means struggle, and was meant to represent the struggle in every person against the temptations of sin, but was adopted as a term of war as a counter to the Christian Crusades.

To sum up:
Hate the player, not the game.

What about religions which indeed have no link with the concept of one god?

Hmm, thats a toughie...

Arn't you ment to be on my side?

Well, whenever a westerner does something anti-christian, the extreamist Muslims blame it on the Christians and Jews. As for the Hindus, all those God are ment to make up a single god, called something I can't remember.

To sum up:
Hate the player, not the game.

Exactly.

Well, I'm no longer open to critism until I get back, so don't try and get a responce.

. . . in Islam there were only 3 reasons for war and violence, and there were specific guidelines over war. 1st reason is if your people/nation is attacked, you can obviously defend yourself. 2nd reason is if other Muslims are attacked, you can defend them, provided they are not the aggressors, and are holding true with Muslim morals and guidelines for war. 3rd reason is if innocent people of any religion are being unjustly persecuted, then it should be our duty to help them in their strife.

None of your three reasons include Islam's most important reason for war, the reason that Muslims used in the 7th century to invade the Eastern Roman Empire and overrun Persia: world conquest! Neither the Romans nor the Persians attacked the Muslims, nor were you defending other non-aggressor Muslims, nor were innocent people being unjustly persecuted. Thus, what you were (allegedly) taught was a lie.

The fact is that Muslims have always divided, and continue to divide, the world into two parts: "Dar al-Harb," the abode of war, and "Dar al-Islam" the abode of Islam. In other words, what they've managed to conquer is theirs forever, and the rest of the world is up for grabs. (BTW: this is a big part of the reason Arabs (and Muslims in general) hate Israel: because Israel has liberated territory that was formerly part of Dar al-Islam.) Islam and strife go together like death and decay.

And on the subject of lying: it's no stranger to Islam. In fact, it's specifically allowed and encouraged according to the Islamic practice of "taqiyya." Muslims are specifically allowed to lie to unbelievers about the true nature of Islamic beliefs. Remember this whenever any Muslim puts forth an apology for Muslim terrorism, savagery and oppression.

We believe that Jehovah, the God of the Christians, and Allah, are all the same God, simply with different names attached to Him. Muslims most certainly do not believe in or worship "the same God". The qualities Islam imputes to "God", including intolerance, bloodthirsty imperialism and hatred of women, are about as far from the attributes of the One True God and His Son Jesus Christ as it is possible to get. If Muslims really do "worship the same God," then I invite all Muslims, right now, to get down on their knees and acknowledge Jesus Christ as their personal Savior! Of course, this will never happen, and the reason is clear: Muslims do not worship, and have never worshipped, the same God as Christians (or Jews for that matter).

Thus, what you were (allegedly) taught was a lie.

So, my deal with this is, how is what I am taught a lie, and what you are taught true? Have you even considered, that perhaps I might have gone to an Islamic School that is trying to reform, and seperate ourselves from the crazies on the other side of the world? Do you think I personally approve of the genocide against the Shii'a's? The suicide bombings against Israelis? The burning of Embassies?
I don't and most Muslims I know don't either. I agree with you that Muslims are doing terrible things around the world, but that is not based in the religion I was taught. What you are trying to do here is justify the terrorists by giving yourself a reason why they do what they do. I don't know why they do it, but it isn't because of our religion. They may take the religion and corrupt it by twisting its words, but what I believe is different.


Muslims most certainly do not believe in or worship "the same God". The qualities Islam imputes to "God", including intolerance, bloodthirsty imperialism and hatred of women, are about as far from the attributes of the One True God and His Son Jesus Christ as it is possible to get. If Muslims really do "worship the same God," then I invite all Muslims, right now, to get down on their knees and acknowledge Jesus Christ as their personal Savior! Of course, this will never happen, and the reason is clear: Muslims do not worship, and have never worshipped, the same God as Christians (or Jews for that matter).

No offense to Christians, but since when are Christians models of peace and love? Jesus Christ is a man to be admired and modeled after, even revered. But look at the Crusades. Christians literally ate their vanquished enemies, in effort to be saved. Look at the Spanish Inquisition. Look at the Roman Emperors who took on the Christian Mantle. Read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and see how these 'Christians' treated their own religion. I'm not trying to insult Christianity, for it is a large part of my faith as well. I'm trying to say that people corrupt religion for their own personal goals, and this has happened throughout history.

And who are you to question who I worship? Do you know me? My personal beliefs? I worship the God of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and there is nothing you can do to disprove that.

the word Jihad literally means struggle, and was meant to represent the struggle in every person against the temptations of sin, but was adopted as a term of war as a counter to the Christian Crusades.

Taqiyya is at work here. This seems to be the most frequent Muslim lie: that "jihad" is "internal" and doesn't mean warfare to advance the borders of Dar al-Islam. It is intuitively obvious to the most casual reader that the Koran speaks of LITERAL, not metaphorical, warfare.

"When thy Lord spake unto the angels, "I will be with you: therefore stablish ye the faithful. I will cast a dread into the hearts of the infidels." Strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every finger tip." [Sound familiar? Remember Nick Berg?]

This, because they have opposed God and his apostle: and whoso shall oppose God and his apostle . . . [ellipsis in original; looks like "God" forgot something here!] Verily, God will be severe in punishment.

"This for you! [emphasis in original] Taste it then! and for the infidels is the torture of the fire!"

O ye who believe! when ye meet the marshalled hosts of the infidels, turn not your backs to them:

Whoso shall turn his back on them on that day, unless he turn aside to fight, or to rally to some other troop, shall incur wrath from God: Hell shall be his abode and wretched the journey thither! [emphasis in original]

So it was not ye who slew them, but God slew them; and those shafts were God's, not thine! He would make trial of the faithful by a gracious trial from Himself: Verily, God Heareth, Knoweth." Sura 8:12-17 (Medina verses, of course)

It goes on and on, in sura after sura, on page after page. The words of the Koran speak for themselves, and they say "WAR", not "internal struggle".

And Muslims justifying "jihad" as a response to the Crusades is laughable. The Crusades were prompted by Muslim oppression in the Holy Land, i.e., the CHRISTIAN territory that Muslims had CONQUERED in their original JIHAD.

Like any religion, Islam can be either a religion of peace or a religion of war. It all depends on how one interprets it. Regardless of which it is, though, the overwhelmingly vast majority of Muslims are gentle and peace-loving people.

you know I've been looking through my Qur'an translation for the last hour, disputing point by point New Mittani's 'quotes', but I realized that doing so would gain me nothing, as the sensible people here understand that pretty much anything can be posted on the internet, and can be made to look credible. If Mittani wants to believe that Islam is a religion based on hate, rape, murder, etc, that is his/her choice. I am just saying that, yes, there are fanatics in Islam who do read the sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) and God's word like Mittani does, as a license to spread their own authority and agenda. But aren't those people in every religion? Look at the 30 Year's War between Protestants and Catholics. People do crazy things in the name of religion, and people abuse religion by using it as a tool to a temporal end, rather than using it to better themselves. They take religion from the personal, and take it to the external. Islam is a very introspective religion. the word Jihad literally means struggle, and was meant to represent the struggle in every person against the temptations of sin, but was adopted as a term of war as a counter to the Christian Crusades.

To sum up:
Hate the player, not the game.

The point is, that things like the Thirty Years War, and the Inquisition, and the Crusades were a long time ago - Christians in general have become secularized in the Western world. There has been both reformation and enlightenment.

Nothing comparable has happened to Islam.

Additionally, Islam is not just the Koran. Yes, that's the only holy book - but there are libraries full of texts written by Islamic scholars over the centuries - dogma that is held as true and Islamic by many people today (depending on which group of Muslims you're talking about).

You can't say, "well, I can't find a verse about killing unbelievers in the Koran, so it's not a Muslim thing". There is far, far more to Islam than just the Koran. To say anything else is to be a disingenuous apologist - someone who is excusing terrorism caused by Islamic imperialist doctrine.

You know, New Mitanni, I doubt my oh so humble reasoning will reach you. You're probably so absolutely convinced of your moral superiority, the moral superiority of the West, of Christianity and Judaism, and of everybody but the filthy heathen barbarian baby-eating Muslims that the mere mention of anything to the contrary is likely to send you into a tongue-biting epileptic rage.

But, for what it's worth...

Not only is Islam not a "religion of peace," it's not a "religion" at all.

A religion, according to the dictionary, is:

re·li·gion
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


So right away we see that since Islam holds that there is one God who created and/or governs the universe, it's a religion according to the first half of the first part of the definition.

There are numerous mosques and imams and holy books, so it's an institutionalized system grounded in such worship. A religion according to the second.

The second definition follows if we accept that there are religious orders in Islam.

The third definition is also true since there are values, beliefs and practices based on the teachings of at least one spiritual leader.

As for the fourth definition, well if you doubt that the cause of Islam is sometimes pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion, you may as well doubt that the fucking sky is blue.

So right away, I see that your first statement is, basically, 100% bullshit.

You say that it's actually not a religion, because:

It's an evil political ideology that incorporates bits and pieces stolen from Judaism and Christianity along with plenty of primitive Arab superstition and paganism, pretends to have divine authority, presumes to control every last aspect of the lives of its minions, and was invented to justify and motivate 7th century Arab imperialism.

But unfortunately for you and your masturbatory orgy of Islam-hating, a religion doesn't have to be "good" or "evil" so your qualification there is irrelevant. Whether it's a political idealogy as well is also irrelevant, since a religion by definition doesn't exclude politics (if you think otherwise you may as well say that all the problems in the Middle East are purely secular). Also irrelevant is your statement of how it incorporates bits and pieces of other religions, superstition and paganism, since that's pretty much how every religion begins, based off the existing ones. And again, the fact that it "pretends to have divine authority" is what MAKES it a religion, again by definition, so too with it "presumes to control every last aspect of the lives of its minions" - you know, the whole "Governing the universe" bit?

So all your objections about why it's "not really a religion" is just pissing in the wind as far as I'm concerned.

I won't even bother with your usual dissection of Koran phrases taken out of context, interpreted to your petty conclusions and supporting YOUR idealogy of hate.

You are more or less a small minded, craven and basically evil man who in earlier times would have been marching along with the nazi's because of how Judaism is "not really a religion", or perhaps Jews are "not really human."


I have studied both the Koran and the Hadith, and I would rather read Hitler's Mein Kampf. At least Hitler didn't attribute his evil to God Himself.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/saintmaggot/pwned-sealclub.jpg

And Muslims justifying "jihad" as a response to the Crusades is laughable. The Crusades were prompted by Muslim oppression in the Holy Land, i.e., the CHRISTIAN territory that Muslims had CONQUERED in their original JIHAD.

Waaah! It's MY land! MINE MINE MINE!

People like you should be down in the Middle East, killing civilians and blowing themselves up because of land claims no one but you gives a shit about.

Oh wait... people like you ARE down in the Middle East, killing civilians and blowing themselves up because of land claims no one but you gives a shit about.

Doenst force you. Its just suggested.

No, they dont force you.
However, many people all over this country, and Im sure all over the world, have been ostrascisied from thier selected churches, for continuing to to not pay thier tithes.

They dont "force" you, but they can, and sadly, often do, refuse to let people be a part of thier group for not giving the money.
Its evil either way.

Mind you, Im not impying ALL catholic churches do this, but the number of ones who have done this, is probably surprising to us both.

. . . masturbatory orgy

Wow, you sure do know some big words, don't you? Don't tell me, let me guess: you must have gone to grad school.

I won't even bother with your usual dissection of Koran phrases taken out of context, interpreted to your petty conclusions and supporting YOUR idealogy of hate.

You won't because you can't. The words of the Koran and Hadith speak for themselves, and you know it. However, your profound observation concerning an "ideology of hate" is unintentionally ironic.

You are more or less a small minded, craven and basically evil man who in earlier times would have been marching along with the nazi's because of how Judaism is "not really a religion", or perhaps Jews are "not really human."

Actually I would have been marching WITH the Jews, the same as I presently support Israel. And unlike Muslims, Jews were not known for flying aircraft into buildings and blowing up restaurants and shopping malls. And BTW: ad hominem attacks do nothing to advance your argument, such as it is.

And who are you to question who I worship? Do you know me? My personal beliefs? I worship the God of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and there is nothing you can do to disprove that.

Sura 109 (Mecca verses):

SAY: O ye UNBELIEVERS!
I worship not that which ye worship,
And ye do not worship that which I worship;
I shall never worship that which ye worship,
Neither will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your religion; to me my religion.

So much for the claim that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do.

The problem with you so-called reformed Muslims is that your personal beliefs are irrelevant to the problem. Your views are not the ones taught in Pakistani madrassas, Saudi mosques and other sources of Islamic terrorism.

When the majority of Muslims worldwide repudiate and renounce the explicit teachings in the Koran, Hadith and elsewhere that advocate intolerance, violence, hatred and oppression of women, the concept of Dar al-Harb and the practice of taqiyya, at the very least, and actively promote and teach the separation of mosque and state, the freedom of all people to adopt OR CHANGE any religion they choose, and the equality of women, then maybe Islam could reasonably be considered a "religion of peace." Unfortunately, that day will never come in view of the Muslim insistence that the Koran is the final revelation and the immutable Word of God.

A Nazi could only be a "good Nazi" to the extent he repudiated the teachings of Nazism (like Oskar Schindler saving Jews during WWII). A Muslim can only be a "good Muslim" to the extent he repudiates the teachings of his own prophet, in short, to the extent he is NOT a Muslim.

Oh, and don't bother citing Old Testament verses that promote violence. I am no fundamentalist, I don't believe in literal interpretation of the Bible, and I believe much more in the New Testament anyway.

Its not a false list and they do exist in the Qu'ran

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them

4:91 If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.

3:118 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.

2:96 Jews are the greediest of all humankind

Now while I am prepared to accept these as out of contex, do not tell me they are not in the Qu'ran


The way you have them translated does not exist in Qur'an.

For example:

Yusuf Ali translation (the most widely accepted English translation):
2:96 "Thou wilt indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life,-even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For Allah sees well all that they do."

Shakir translation:
2:96 "And you will most certainly find them the greediest of men for life (greedier) than even those who are polytheists; every one of them loves that he should be granted a life of a thousand years, and his being granted a long life will in no way remove him further off from the chastisement, and Allah sees what they"

Pickthall translation:
2:96 "And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do."

Transliteration from Arabic:
2:96 "Walatajidannahum ahrasa alnnasi AAala hayatin wamina allatheena ashrakoo yawaddu ahaduhum law yuAAammaru alfa sanatin wama huwa bimuzahzihihi mina alAAathabi an yuAAammara waAllahu baseerun bima yaAAmaloona"

What translation are you using for 2:96? Where in that verse does it say "Jews"? If your Qu'ran says what you claim for 2:96, then throw it away. It is false.

Once again, and I gave the resource:

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moiz/quran/

"Peaceful religion" is an oxymoron in my experience.

What a lousy original post for a thread.

Pull me your average Muslim who's not totally brainwashed from Anti-Western propaganda in the Middle East and I'll show you an awesome person.

What a lousy original post for a thread.

Pull me your average Muslim who's not totally brainwashed from Anti-Western propaganda in the Middle East and I'll show you an awesome person.

Yes, well ... we're all too familiar with the NS General broad brush, aren't we?

Considering nobody participating in this thread can, in any way, assume a scholarly stance on the issue, I submit that we're all just pissing in the wind and wondering why our legs are getting wet.

Yes, well ... we're all too familiar with the NS General broad brush, aren't we?

Considering nobody participating in this thread can, in any way, assume a scholarly stance on the issue, I submit that we're all just pissing in the wind and wondering why our legs are getting wet.
True...true...

Dear Stone Bridges,

12345Please stop pissing on my leg.

Sincerely,

Colodia

Christains can be just as violent, now right now in this point in history it is not ture. But the christains had the crusades, but not all christains were a part of it.

Yes islam is a religion, but not a good one.

Yes islam is a religion, but not a good one.

Define what makes a religion "good" considering all religions have had their "bad side" occur sometime or another.

Saying that is like say no religion is "good", which could have been the basis of your post.

You won't because you can't.

Actually, I won't because I'm fairly certain that you won't bother to admit your wrongs, read the arguments posed by others, and in the end you'll believe just as you believe today and most others here will consider you little more than a troll not worth the effort.

The words of the Koran and Hadith speak for themselves, and you know it.

I also know the words of the Bible speak for themselves too.

Yet it's amazing how many people don't seem to agree on just what they say.

However, your profound observation concerning an "ideology of hate" is unintentionally ironic.

Oh no. It was intended that you'd get ruffled, since your supposed moral high ground is that you dislike idealogies of hate, and yet you're quite obviously (to anyone but you) full of hate yourself. This particular point was lost on you of course.


Actually I would have been marching WITH the Jews, the same as I presently support Israel. And unlike Muslims, Jews were not known for flying aircraft into buildings and blowing up restaurants and shopping malls. And BTW: ad hominem attacks do nothing to advance your argument, such as it is.

Ad hominem attacks had nothing to do WITH my argument. My argument was complete by the time I made them.

It's only 'ad hominem' if it's 'argumentum ad hominem,' where the argument itself depends on the attack against the others character. My argument actually depended only on the definitions of words.

The point where you're a cocksucker is just a factual add-on. ;)

Thank you for the information regarding other Islamic texts. Do you know where I could get an overview of these texts, i.e. a beginner's introduction?


This is by no means a be-all and end-all work on islamism, but this is a good place for a beginner.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434314
Islamism study thread

There is far, far more to Islam than just the Koran. To say anything else is to be a disingenuous apologist - someone who is excusing terrorism caused by Islamic imperialist doctrine.

Very true.

Qur'an being written in archaic classical Arabic, is not that lucid to an average muslim. Heck, less than 15% of muslims are Arabs and given Arab literacy standards (and adding Arab literate non-Arab muslims), the percentage of muslims who can do a fair reading of Qur'an would be less than 10%.

So who gives the flock the daily dose of hate?

The mullah. He is the culprit. Atleast the main one.

from what i understand about christianity and islam is that they are both extremely simular in ideals, one of the few major discrepancies being that islam believe jesus was just aprophet and not the son of god and christians believe he was the son of God. most other factors of the two religions coincide.

If we talk about religion on a wider basis and get back to the basics that many educated people know, is that religion in its entirity was fabricated by the educated scholars and nobleman, this can be seen across most religions spanning 1000's of years. it was fabricated to control the lower class uneducated masses to try and prevent revolution. as people become more educated the definitions in many of these texts are now "metaphors" and not to be taken literally where as 1000 years ago they were!

however they all have egg on their faces now as most if not all wars have had some kind of religous influence on their beginnings...

please correct or add if i am wrong or misinformed but lets keep it sensible, i've read some previous threads and some have to learn to talk unemotively about these issues

thanks
:cool:

Christains can be just as violent, now right now in this point in history it is not ture. But the christains had the crusades, but not all christains were a part of it.

actually catholics did the crusades not the protestants.

Very tiring argument. Religion is by definition a way of life. That could mean anything. If I loved money and it was my main purpose in life, if everything I did was related to or dependent on it, it would be my religion. The same could be said of science, food, sex, materialism etc. People kill for those reasons too. All are modern day religions. So yes Islam is a religion. Is it evil?. No. It's a set if ideals. But people are evil in my opinion. They want power and use religion for this purpose more often than not. And of course people blame the religion rather than the nutjobs who make up a part of the group. And, as you can see, there are plenty in every religion. Religion is simply a guideline. YOU still have to think for yourself concerning what is right and wrong no matter what you believe in. If you stab/burn/blow-up people because they don't follow your beliefs than you have the problem, not the faith. It's common sense. So stop attacking religion please because the truth is, if it didn't exist, we'd still be slaughtering one another... just for some other stupid reason.

So stop attacking religion please because the truth is, if it didn't exist, we'd still be slaughtering one another... just for some other stupid reason.
Yep, last I checked, Christianity was the dominant religion of the Southern States, and look at all the racism that area suffered through.

Very true.

Qur'an being written in archaic classical Arabic, is not that lucid to an average muslim. Heck, less than 15% of muslims are Arabs and given Arab literacy standards (and adding Arab literate non-Arab muslims), the percentage of muslims who can do a fair reading of Qur'an would be less than 10%.

So who gives the flock the daily dose of hate?

The mullah. He is the culprit. Atleast the main one.

It closely resembles the situation where the Catholic church did all the interpretation of scripture, since the majority of people who belonged to the Church could not read, let alone read Latin.

Islam is a peaceful religion if the people practicing it are able to actually read and interpret the Koran on their own without being totally dependent on the local religious authorities for their interpretation.

Otherwise, Islam seems to be violent as all hell. But, if you look at any of the major religions of the world you see that they were incredibly violent when the majority of people couldn't interpret or read the teachings on their own and were under the sway of a political-religious complex that used it for their own goals.

Islam is a peaceful religion if the people practicing it are able to actually read and interpret the Koran on their own without being totally dependent on the local religious authorities for their interpretation.

Otherwise, Islam seems to be violent as all hell. But, if you look at any of the major religions of the world you see that they were incredibly violent when the majority of people couldn't interpret or read the teachings on their own and were under the sway of a political-religious complex that used it for their own goals.

That's rather like what George Bernard Shaw said about Christians - it would be a nice thing if there were any people who practiced it in its ideal form.

As it is, Islam is in dire need of reformation and enlightenment - but they are resisting those two forces mightily - the majority of Muslims around the world see any attempt to "reform" Islam as a threat to their religion.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader

theres the definition of religion get it right sonshine

That's rather like what George Bernard Shaw said about Christians - it would be a nice thing if there were any people who practiced it in its ideal form. As it is, Islam is in dire need of reformation and enlightenment - but they are resisting those two forces mightily - the majority of Muslims around the world see any attempt to "reform" Islam as a threat to their religion.

That idea is, of course, drilled in to them by the regimes of the region to maintain their control. As much as I think we should wait until all options are exausted, removing Iran would do a lot to pressure the other regimes in to change.

As much as the Saudis or the Ayatollah would like to deny it, many of the radical and hateful aspects of modern-day Mideastern Islam were nonexistent for much of its history. It wasn't until they stopped new interpretations of the Koran in the...13th?...century that things went downhill.

theres the definition of religion get it right sonshine

I love the sarcastic ones. Hat's off to you bright eyes ;)

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader



Of course.. your right. I mean you can't worhip anything other than a god right? You couldn't possible believe that something like money, power, or science could be the answer to all your problems. Because all of the afore mentioned cannot be viewed by manys as means of power. They are not revered be any means. A system such as capitalism could not possibly be seen as "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings (a) Leader".

Oh and when you copied your definition from dictionary.com you conveniently left out definition number 4: A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. By that definition everything I said is in fact true.

Narrow viewpoint. Nitpicky, techinical and adds nothing of any value as far opinion to the general point of my comment.

That's rather like what George Bernard Shaw said about Christians

Here's what he said about The Prophet.

“The world is in dire need of a man with the mind of Muhammad; religious people in the Middle Ages, due to their ignorance and prejudice, had pictured him in a very dark way as they used to consider him the enemy of Christianity. But after looking into the story of this man I found it to be an amazing and a miraculous one, and I came to the conclusion that he was never an enemy of Christianity, and must be called instead the savior of humanity. In my opinion, if he was to be given control over the world today, he would solve our problems and secure the peace and happiness which the world is longing for.”

:)

most others here will consider you little more than a troll not worth the effort.

Ah, the presumptuous leftist at his best. Amazing how well you know what "most others here" will or will not do.

Oh no. It was intended that you'd get ruffled, since your supposed moral high ground is that you dislike idealogies of hate, and yet you're quite obviously (to anyone but you) full of hate yourself.

If you think this is the kind of thing that gets me "ruffled," by all means, please continue. There are actually few things I enjoy more than laughing at left-wing absurdities. As for disliking "ideologies of hate," I am specifically concerned with the ideology of hate that has declared war on my country, my civilization and me personally and has killed and injured people I know in New York and Washington DC. They've targeted you too, but you are too obsessed with your leftist babble to wake up and recognize who the enemy is.

The point where you're a cocksucker is just a factual add-on. ;)

Imagine that, a left-wing extremist trying to impugn someone by accusing him of being a sexual deviant. This may be a first: a left-wing "homophobe".

Since I know that you are writing in utter ignorance, since I am confident in my manhood and since my girlfriends would undoubtedly fall down laughing hysterically if they ever read your incompetent attempt at insulting me, I need say no more.

As for disliking "ideologies of hate," I am specifically concerned with the ideology of hate that has declared war on my country, my civilization and me personally and has killed and injured people I know in New York and Washington DC. They've targeted you too, but you are too obsessed with your leftist babble to wake up and recognize who the enemy is.



1. Who is the enemy?
2. How is this knowledge helping you?
or What can I do once I know the enemy?
3. Where is your civilization is going to reside once the enemy is faced?

Ah, the presumptuous leftist at his best.
...
There are actually few things I enjoy more than laughing at left-wing absurdities.
...
Imagine that, a left-wing extremist trying to impugn someone by accusing him of being a sexual deviant. This may be a first: a left-wing "homophobe".
You're a paranoid one, aren't you? Still on your great crusade to evade the evil persecution of the left?

One can well be conservative and not think we should go to war because we're imagining a threat. Pope Benedict comes to mind.

It closely resembles the situation where the Catholic church did all the interpretation of scripture, since the majority of people who belonged to the Church could not read, let alone read Latin.

There is a parallel to that in hindu religion too. Majority could not read sanskrit scriptures (Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas) and brahmins (the priestly class) were the keepers of the faith. After the Bhakthi movements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti_movement) of the 15th century, there is a continuing renaissance in hindu thought and society.

I keep on hearing about how Islam is the religion of peace etc. However, the actions of Islamic people seems to say otherwise. Here are just some of the phrases from the Koran that says that Islam is not a religion of peace.
Ah yes, next time people in my high school are coming to me and expecting me to be an apologist for radical Islamists over these cartoons, I can point to the real problem: people like you.

That's rather like what George Bernard Shaw said about Christians - it would be a nice thing if there were any people who practiced it in its ideal form.

As it is, Islam is in dire need of reformation and enlightenment - but they are resisting those two forces mightily - the majority of Muslims around the world see any attempt to "reform" Islam as a threat to their religion.
Reform should come from within. If you submit your "reform" (From what I've read from you, the quotation marks are needed) on Muslims, they'll never accept it and will resist. Then all you get are dead soldiers and a lot of bitter feelings.

And for what? You apparently don't even like them at all, so why do you care anyway?

All religon is inherintly evil, Islam is no exception.

Favorite quote: There are good men who do good deeds, and evil men who do evil deeds, but it takes religon to make good men do evil deeds.


outstanding quote...mind if i borrow it from time to time?

Reform should come from within.

True, but we can nudge. Gently and forcefully.:p

And for what? You apparently don't even like them at all, so why do you care anyway?

He cares for himself. Basically he is saying "reform or else I will kill you". Reverse islamism.:p

Ah, the presumptuous leftist at his best. Amazing how well you know what "most others here" will or will not do.

I'm psychic like that, just like you. How'd you know I was a leftist? How did you know, just by my calling you a troll, that I vote Democrat, hate corporations, wear a Che shirt and argue about the inequities of the class system and the evils of Republicanism?


If you think this is the kind of thing that gets me "ruffled," by all means, please continue. There are actually few things I enjoy more than laughing at left-wing absurdities.

I bet you feel extra-special political for adding "left-wing" in there to make it seem like you're a political icon!

As for disliking "ideologies of hate," I am specifically concerned with the ideology of hate that has declared war on my country, my civilization and me personally and has killed and injured people I know in New York and Washington DC. They've targeted you too, but you are too obsessed with your leftist babble to wake up and recognize who the enemy is.

Again with the "leftist babble" babble! My my.

Come on, I don't have to be a leftist to piss on your 9/11 masturbation. Islam hasn't declared war any more than the Jews declared war on Germany.

Though that didn't stop Germany from declaring war on all Jews, and it wouldn't stop people like you from declaring war on all Muslims. Incidentally, that's why I said you'd be marching with the nazi's, your reasoning is exactly the same. (That and you even said, Mein Kampf was a better read and implied Hitler wasn't so bad. ;) )


Imagine that, a left-wing extremist trying to impugn someone by accusing him of being a sexual deviant. This may be a first: a left-wing "homophobe".

Wow, now I've been upgrated to "left wing *extremist*!" I'm honored to have made you bring out your worst insults!

And you got me, I'm DEFINITELY a leftist/liberal/communist/Democrat/sexual deviant/extremist/hippie/pacifist. Ouch, that hurts - especially, knowing as I do, how psychic and intelligent you are.

By the way, did you bother responding to the fact that I TORE APART your stupid comment about how Islam is not a real religion?

I laugh at your groping in the dark like a pre-teen virgin, trying to hurt me reeeeal baaad for calling you out as a trollish idiot.


Since I know that you are writing in utter ignorance, since I am confident in my manhood and since my girlfriends would undoubtedly fall down laughing hysterically if they ever read your incompetent attempt at insulting me, I need say no more.


Of course! Your many girlfriends would be glad to tell me about your 11 inch penis, 200 IQ and your 100,000+ a year salary....

You sure got me there, anonymous internet guy. I can hardly criticize your mandhood now. You've proven it, to me AND all your sisters.

51. Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

59. Jews and Christians are evil-livers.

?

So Allah hates people who worship him according to the Koran (Jews/Christians). Mmmkay.

Look at all the horrible stuff that has happened in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, India, Indonesia, Israel, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kashmir, Lebanon, Morocco, the Netherlands, Pakistan, the Phillipines, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States, Yemen and tell me with a straight face that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Islam causes problems wherever it exists.

I would be fairly accurate by saying that most of the terrorism in this world is Islamic Terrorism.

The religion is just really dysfunctional. They trample hundreds of eachother to death to participate in a ritual where they stone a devil that isn't even really there.

They'll protest a stupid cartoon, but they rarely speak up against terrorism.

Yeah, there are good hearted Muslims, but a solid majority are barbarians that are a threat to free society.

Islam causes problems wherever it exists.


So do white people. Kill them all. Turn Europe into a glass parking lot! Read Malcolm X's speech "The Ballot or the Bullet".

Evil! All of them! Broad brush! Hate! Hate! Hate!

Oh ... I forgot ... hate's only good if it's not directed at you ... silly me.

Never mind.

Look at all the horrible stuff that has happened in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, India, Indonesia, Israel, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kashmir, Lebanon, Morocco, the Netherlands, Pakistan, the Phillipines, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States, Yemen and tell me with a straight face that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Islam causes problems wherever it exists.

I would be fairly accurate by saying that most of the terrorism in this world is Islamic Terrorism.

The religion is just really dysfunctional. They trample hundreds of eachother to death to participate in a ritual where they stone a devil that isn't even really there.

They'll protest a stupid cartoon, but they rarely speak up against terrorism.

Yeah, there are good hearted Muslims, but a solid majority are barbarians that are a threat to free society.

First off, ever heard of "symbolism"?

Secondly, take your hands off your hears and stop going "LALALALALALA! MUSLIMS ALL OVER THE WORLD CONDEMNING TERRORISM? I CAN'T HEAR YOOOOOOU!"

Third, take a short glance at every society, every religion, every nation of the world and you tell me that they didn't cause some kind of problem wherever they were.

So do white people. Kill them all. Turn Europe into a glass parking lot! Read Malcolm X's speech "The Ballot or the Bullet".

Evil! All of them! Broad brush! Hate! Hate! Hate!

Oh ... I forgot ... hate's only good if it's not directed at you ... silly me.

Never mind.
Oh so now you're going to turn this into a race thing?

For your information, I'm not even white, I'm hispanic.

I'm not here to sugar coat bullshit and be politically correct.

I really do think the majority of Muslims are insane people and will surely plunge this entire world into an inferno with their uncompromising brutality.

Oh so now you're going to turn this into a race thing?

For your information, I'm not even white, I'm hispanic.

I'm not here to sugar coat bullshit and be politically correct.

I really do think the majority of Muslims are insane people and will surely plunge this entire world into an inferno with their uncompromising brutality.
Huzzah for you, I'm half Hispanic and a Muslim. You're in luck, I was just about to go and drain California's economy and waste tax payer money as I smuggle cocaine into the nation!

Oh so now you're going to turn this into a race thing?


Nope ... just showing you how stupid your argument is.

I really do think the majority of Muslims are insane people and will surely plunge this entire world into an inferno with their uncompromising brutality.

Well you're wrong. Very, very wrong. I'm guessing you don't personally know one single Muslim.

...Germany...

Islam causes problems wherever it exists.
Care to point out what the hell you think you're talking about in your boundless ignorance?

Care to point out what the hell you think you're talking about in your boundless ignorance?

All those nations have one thing in common... victims of Islamic terrorism.

I'm not ignorant. I'm fairly awake. Islam is a threat to the entire world.

Instead of insulting me and calling me ignorant, why don't you all try and prove to me that Islam is a religion of peace then?

By the way, I despise all religions, I'm just singling out Islam for now.

Islam is a threat to the entire world.

You make the allegation, so the burdon of proof is on you.

As a Muslim, I maintain my innocence until you prove my guilt.

All those nations have one thing in common... victims of Islamic terrorism.
Yeah, about that...I'm still waiting. My best guess might be the Olympic Games in Munich - but the PLO is hardly an Islamist organisation. You might as well go ahead and blame Catholicism for the IRA.

You make the allegation, so the burdon of proof is on you.

As a Muslim, I maintain my innocence until you prove my guilt.

I challenge you to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion.

I challenge you to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Once again, you make the allegation. Burdon of proof is on you.

Keep in mind that it's been attempted in this very thread. Read the thread very, very carefully before you respond.

Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

I challenge you to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion.
That's not how it works. Keruvalia merely countered allegations that Islam is a violent religion in this thread. I don't think he really put up the hypothesis that Islam is any more peaceful than any other religion. He doesn't have anything to prove.

You, on the other hand, do.

That's not how it works. Keruvalia merely countered allegations that Islam is a violent religion in this thread. I don't think he really put up the hypothesis that Islam is any more peaceful than any other religion. He doesn't have anything to prove.

You, on the other hand, do.

A mere "No it isn't", is not a counter-arguement. Need I remind you this is a forum, not a trial.

If you guys can't counter my arguement with reasons why Islam isn't a violent religion then I'll take it that you cede the point to me then.

The proof is in the pudding. Look at all the places in the world where Islam is prolific and tell me they're not in turmoil.

That's not how it works. Keruvalia merely countered allegations that Islam is a violent religion in this thread. I don't think he really put up the hypothesis that Islam is any more peaceful than any other religion.

True. I am fully aware of Islam's violent side. Nobody in this thread has mentioned it yet, though. They merely spew the same old sophistry from places like www.ihateallmuslims.com (hyperbole) and can't actually continue beyond that.

However, you are correct. I have never claimed Islam to be violence-free or fat-free or low calorie. If I did, I'd fully expect people to demand I back it up.

If I couldn't, I'd expect people to chastise me for my ignorance and suggest I learn more.

What many people fail to do around these parts, though, is play devil's advocate with themselves. They cannot conceive of a counter to their own opinion, thus, they fail to accept it when it slaps them in the face with a giant tuna.

Yeah, about that...I'm still waiting. My best guess might be the Olympic Games in Munich - but the PLO is hardly an Islamist organisation. You might as well go ahead and blame Catholicism for the IRA.

The terrorists who perpetrated the act were Muslims.

A mere "No it isn't", is not a counter-arguement. Need I remind you this is a forum, not a trial.

I have never presented a mere "No it isn't". Never. READ THIS WHOLE THREAD AND THE 300 THREADS JUST LIKE IT YOU IGNORANT FUCK. (caps for emphasis)

The proof is in the pudding. Look at all the places in the world where Islam is prolific and tell me they're not in turmoil.

Islam is prolific in the United States. Such turmoil.

Never mind.

Examine the reasons those places are in turmoil. Is it Islam, or is it culture/tribal feuds?

The terrorists who perpetrated the act were Muslims.

Prove they were Muslim.

Again ... you make the allegation. Back it up.

However, I see you're completely ignoring me and are, thus, a pointless troll.

The proof is in the pudding. Look at all the places in the world where Islam is prolific and tell me they're not in turmoil.
How about...the United Arab Emirates. That Muslim enough for you?

The terrorists who perpetrated the act were Muslims.
The point is that your argument goes a little like this:
Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore, vegetarianism is evil and genocidal.

You have to look at the actual causes of terrorism, turmoil and all the rest of it - not that some of the victims and offenders happen to be Muslim.

http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/-/7/eye_of_god.jpg

http://www.zeroimage.com/camera_gallery/tin_cam/tinblue.jpg

http://www.feel-it.co.uk/feel.gif

THE

http://www.nonprofitmailers.org/images/love.jpg

A mere "No it isn't", is not a counter-arguement. Need I remind you this is a forum, not a trial.

If you guys can't counter my arguement with reasons why Islam isn't a violent religion then I'll take it that you cede the point to me then.

The proof is in the pudding. Look at all the places in the world where Islam is prolific and tell me they're not in turmoil.
"Yes you did."
"No I didn't."
"Yes you did."
"No I didn't plus infinity!!!!!!!"