NationStates Jolt Archive

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Depends on whether or not you're referring to the ethnicity, or the continent one dwells on. Ethnicity-wise, they are mutually exclusive. Based on continent of residence, yes, a white person can be African in that context.Before I proceed, please define "white" as you understand the term.Of European origin, a Caucasian. Is there any other meaning to the word really?

From the thread "Expel all Europeans from Africa" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=468497).

In your view, is there a "white" ethnicity? A "white" racial division? If so, how might one define these terms? Are either of these synonymous with "European" ("of European origin") or "Caucasian"/"Caucasoid"? How so? Of the aforementioned divisions, are any mutually exclusive with "African"? In what manner?

Please keep discussion civil.

obviously it is:Students disciplined for award campaign
Posters promoted white student for African American award

OMAHA, Nebraska (AP) -- Officials disciplined students who papered their nearly all-white high school with posters advocating a white student from South Africa for the school's "Distinguished African American Student Award."

Peggy Rupprecht, spokeswoman for the Westside Community Schools district, said administrators at Westside High School discovered more than a hundred of the posters throughout the school first thing Monday -- Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

"The content of the posters, they believed, was inappropriate and insensitive to some members of our school community," Rupprecht said.

Citing privacy policies, Rupprecht said she could not specify what the penalties were or how many students were disciplined. But the mother of the boy pictured on the posters said he was suspended for two days.

The award has been given the last eight years to an outstanding black student as part of the school's Martin Luther King Jr. Day celebration, she said.

The poster pictured junior Trevor Richards, 16, smiling and making a thumbs up sign. A message at the top encouraged votes for him for next year's award.

Karen Richards said her son and his friends were not trying to hurt anyone.

"My son is not a racist," she told the Omaha World-Herald. "He has black friends, friends from Bangladesh and Egypt. Color has never been an issue in our home."

"It was a very innocent thing," she said.

Two of her son's friends were disciplined along with him, she said. A fourth student was punished for circulating a petition Tuesday criticizing the practice of recognizing only black student achievement with the award, she said.

Tylena Martin, a junior, said the poster had been on the door to her homeroom class where she is the only black student. She said she felt hurt by the posters and the backlash that ensued.

According to 2002-2003 state statistics, 56 Of Westside's 1,632 students are black.[CNN-link (http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/22/king.controversy.ap/)]

*lol
Talk about confusion... Seriously, I think what these kids did was great. If you put up an award for African Americans, it doesn't say anywhere that they have to be black to get it, does it?
You can't fight racism by bluring language, that only serves to make you feel better about doing nothing. :D

And, yes, you can be African and white. I worked with enough South Africans to know. Just like you can be American and white or black or rainbow coloured. Africa is a continent, not a coloue, and its inhabitants are Africans.

No there is no devide. How long have the Boers lived in South Africa?

As to the student poster thing? Well playing the race card was probably a mistake as they could have gottent them on a technicality. African-American. So if the South African kid was only a visting student.....

So if the South African kid was only a visting student.....no, iirc his family had immigrated into the us.

Should one, then, count certain "white" ethnicities amongst the present indigenous peoples of Africa? If so, which ones?

How did they land in Nebraska? It's just an odd place to move to... think of the other possibilities..... Nebraska?

'Richards said her family moved to Omaha from Johannesburg six years ago. Trevor, she said, "is as African as anyone."'

http://www.zerointelligence.net/archives/000249.php

For those who acknowledge the existence of African "whites": To your knowledge, are all such individuals of European descent?

For those who acknowledge the existence of African "whites": To your knowledge, are all such individuals of European descent?if you believe that crazy evolutionism theory, we are all of african descent.

How did they land in Nebraska? It's just an odd place to move to... think of the other possibilities..... Nebraska?

Heh, at least they didn't go to Idaho or Wyoming.

if you believe that crazy evolutionism theory, we are all of african descent.

True, but one should also note that the initial outward migration of Homo sapiens from Africa would have predated modern phenotypic differentiation of races.

Ethnicity and nationality are two different things, so you have to refine the question.

If you're talking in terms of ethnicity, then it depends on how you define African. Let's say it's someone whose family originates in Africa. How many generations back can the relocation be? Most of the group in the US that are referred to as African-American are mixed heritage. What percentage is still considered African in that case? Does the person have to retain a dark complexion? How dark? It's an incredibly complex and sensitive issue.

Both ethnicity and nationality are political constructs, and wouldn't be that important if people didn't insist on making such a big deal out of them.

Heh, at least they didn't go to Idaho or Wyoming.

when i lived in idaho, i knew not one but two people from trinidad. i still don't understand what posessed them on that one.

Ethnicity and nationality are two different things, so you have to refine the question.

While it is my wish that you interpret the questions as you see fit, I would look favorably upon greater consideration of the ethnic issues implicit.

If you're talking in terms of ethnicity, then it depends on how you define African. Let's say it's someone whose family originates in Africa. How many generations back can the relocation be? Most of the group in the US that are referred to as African-American are mixed heritage. What percentage is still considered African in that case? Does the person have to retain a dark complexion? How dark? It's an incredibly complex and sensitive issue.

Of course, individuals having an African family origin are not necessarily of dark complexion.

Both ethnicity and nationality are political constructs, and wouldn't be that important if people didn't insist on making such a big deal out of them.

Indeed.

*lol
Talk about confusion... Seriously, I think what these kids did was great. If you put up an award for African Americans, it doesn't say anywhere that they have to be black to get it, does it?
You can't fight racism by bluring language, that only serves to make you feel better about doing nothing. :D

And, yes, you can be African and white. I worked with enough South Africans to know. Just like you can be American and white or black or rainbow coloured. Africa is a continent, not a coloue, and its inhabitants are Africans.

Id have to agree. If theyre only going to give it out to blacks then its really quite racist of them, not that the intention wasnt to be racist in the first place by considering achievements by blacks to be somehow superior, or more deserving of reward.

Again, is "white" synonymous with either "of (ethnically) European origin" or "Caucasian"/"Caucasoid"?

I probably shouldn't be posting in the thread because it's not necessarily discussing this, but I think we need to move on from the concept of races and ethnicities, human is human pure and simple, all are individuals, and the ideas saying otherwise are holding humanity back...

I probably shouldn't be posting in the thread because it's not necessarily discussing this, but I think we need to move on from the concept of races and ethnicities, human is human pure and simple, all are individuals, and the ideas saying otherwise are holding humanity back...

In my view, scientific consideration of our species' distinctions does no less than to underscore humankind's fundamental oneness.

Any further thoughts?

Again, is "white" synonymous with either "of (ethnically) European origin" or "Caucasian"/"Caucasoid"?
Well seeing as dark skinned Americans are called Afro-Americans, and dark skinned Africans are typically called Africans, I don't see what point you are trying to raise. Are you trying to say that the appropriate equivalent to Caucasoid is Negroid? Or what? Africans generally do not like whites being called such, they feel it is their unique identity. As I said, a white living in Africa is an African in the sense of continent, though if you are referring to skin colour, I am not sure it's an appropriate qualification.

In your view, is there a "white" ethnicity? A "white" racial division? If so, how might one define these terms?
No, no, and impossible.

Race is a fiction.

No, no, and impossible.

Race is a fiction.
Yet the skin colour is not. It exists. I think what the OP means is to determine whether or not the term African is synonymous with dark skin colour, which it usually it is.

I always find the term 'African American' to be gigglelific...I've met more white Africans than black (most blacks in Canada tend to be from the West Indies...which is still a 'round-about' African I suppose, though they'll generally scoff at this). Anyway, when people assume a colour of skin based on the word "African"...it's a little silly, really. Yes, the majority of people living in the African continent are black. However, there are quite a few whites, asians, arabs and so on who are legitimately African...what...are you going to deny them because they aren't 'black'? Might as well separate from Northern Africa then.

I always find the term 'African American' to be gigglelific...I've met more white Africans than black (most blacks in Canada tend to be from the West Indies...which is still a 'round-about' African I suppose, though they'll generally scoff at this). Anyway, when people assume a colour of skin based on the word "African"...it's a little silly, really. Yes, the majority of people living in the African continent are black. However, there are quite a few whites, asians, arabs and so on who are legitimately African...what...are you going to deny them because they aren't 'black'? Might as well separate from Northern Africa then.
Well they are trying to do just that in South Africa; quietly and politely remove all whites from the country. Many Afrikaaners actually had wanted to secede and create a separate nation, though the scheme never gained much popularity. Being South African, I can say I am much happier to call myself a European now. Africa is just going down the drain. :(

Well seeing as dark skinned Americans are called Afro-Americans, and dark skinned Africans are typically called Africans, I don't see what point you are trying to raise. Are you trying to say that the appropriate equivalent to Caucasoid is Negroid? Or what? Africans generally do not like whites being called such, they feel it is their unique identity. As I said, a white living in Africa is an African in the sense of continent, though if you are referring to skin colour, I am not sure it's an appropriate qualification.

My point is this: be wary of overgeneralization.

"Caucasoids", even before the Age of Exploration, were neither limited to nor necessarily derived from expressly European populations. Nor are non-"Caucasoid" Africans of anything close to a single "black" phenotype. Caveat: the veracity of the previous statements are again contingent on operative definitions (here, of "ethnicity" and "European origin").

The following images will be of special interest to those with rigid conceptions of "racial geography":

North Africa:


Riffian woman (of mountainous North Morocco) and companions (http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/7544/sitenahima11ny5kf.jpg)
Young girl from the Rif (North Morocco) (http://www.pa-chouvy.org/Photos/Maroc_Rif2005/Portraits/Rif-Child-Girl.jpg)
Riffian Children (http://www.pa-chouvy.org/Photos/Maroc_Rif2005/Portraits/Rif-Children.jpg)
Riffian Woman (http://www.pa-chouvy.org/Photos/Maroc_Rif2005/Portraits/Rif-Grandmother2.jpg)
Algerian Berber martyr (http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/5531/alg1mw.jpg)
Abdelkrim Bennani (Moroccan government official) (http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/4769/bennani3lr.jpg)
Southern Berber man (http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p108945.jpg)
Diverse phenotypes reflective of regional intermixture (http://img462.imageshack.us/my.php?image=berbersnw0017934ei.jpg)
"Cromagnoid woman, Souss Region (south of Morocco)" (http://www.tamazgha.fr/IMG/Simohend-hadjira.jpg)
"Another Cro-magnoid woman - Aurès, Algeria (Chaoui Berber)" (http://www.tamazgha.fr/IMG/arton1178.jpg)
"Mediterranid-Capsid (Southern Berber/Morocco)" (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=berter0so.jpg)
"Mostly Cromagnoid (Southern Berber woman)" (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=berters7gz.jpg)


Afghanistan:


Famous female Afghan refugee, June 1985 National Geographic cover (http://www.hdprint.co.uk/ftp/Florida/2001/Afghan%20refugee.jpg)
Afghan sisters (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afghansisters8ay.jpg)
Afghan males (http://img327.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afghans16bc.jpg)


Pakistan:


Pakistani men (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pakistanimg13267yt.jpg)
Mohammad Ali Jinnah, first Governor-General of Pakistan and first presiding officer of its constituent assembly (http://www.nndb.com/people/263/000088996/jinnah-1.jpg)


India:


Young Indian brahmachari (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/44/YoungBrahminBoy.jpg/230px-YoungBrahminBoy.jpg)
Arjun Rampal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ARampal_magazine.jpg)
Preity Zintra (http://www.bollywoodpicturesonline.com/tb/preity_zinta_007.jpg)
Rani Mukherjee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ranimukherjee.jpg)

My point is this: be wary of overgeneralization.

"Caucasoids", even before the Age of Exploration, were neither limited to nor necessarily derived from expressly European populations. Nor are non-"Caucasoid" Africans of anything close to a single "black" phenotype. Caveat: the veracity of the previous statements are again contingent on operative definitions (here, of "ethnicity" and "European origin").

Then your point hinges on an entirely different matter. I thought you meant is it possible to call one of the descendants of European colonists Africans, which it usually. You were trying to make the point that even original Africans can be white. Which is also true. Am I correct?

You were trying to make the point that even original Africans can be white. Which is also true. Am I correct?

Yes. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes. Sorry for the confusion.
It's okay. I was just puzzled at first because you didn't really clarify whether you meant colonists, or simply original inhabitants. Are you sure those images you posted though are not the result of population migration/interbreeding? In some cases though, like ancient Egypt, where most citizens were purely African, you could find many lighter skin tones, so this is hardly startling really.

It's okay. I was just puzzled at first because you didn't really clarify whether you meant colonists, or simply original inhabitants. Are you sure those images you posted though are not the result of population migration/interbreeding? In some cases though, like ancient Egypt, where most citizens were purely African, you could find many lighter skin tones, so this is hardly startling really.

While, throughout much of North Africa, sub-Saharan, Middle Eastern, and various European groups have all made significant historical contributions, genetic and archeological evidence indicates that populations ancestral to the Berbers have inhabited the area since the Upper Paleolithic era. The regions which most completely retained Berber language and traditions have generally been those least exposed to foreign rule - namely, the highlands of Kabylie and Morocco, most of which retained great autonomy even through Roman and Ottoman times, and where the Phoenicians did not venture beyond the coast (which is not to dismiss external influence altogether).

Well they are trying to do just that in South Africa; quietly and politely remove all whites from the country. Many Afrikaaners actually had wanted to secede and create a separate nation, though the scheme never gained much popularity. Being South African, I can say I am much happier to call myself a European now. Africa is just going down the drain. :(

The South African government must be really good at that quiet thing because as a politically active South African actually living in South Africa I haven't heard anything about it! Strange that! South Africa's economy is going through the longest period of consecutive quarters of economic growth. The JSE has gone through the magical 20 000 mark, interests rates are at historically low levels, inflation has been inside the target range of between 3% and 6% for many years, the budget deficit has been reduced from 9% before 1994 to between 2% and 3% now and there is a huge inflow of foreign capital. The White South African workforce is still important to the growth of the economy. It's only been eleven years since Apartheid ended and the problems resulting from the inferior education forced on non-white people still has not been resolved. The unemployment rate among White Safricans is 4% whereas it's at 40% for Black Safricans.

And I'm sure you can understand why Afrikaners were not granted a separate nation. Can you really see any good coming from a nation of only Afrikaners? We already have a little town here comprised of only Afrikaners. Apparently they have their own currency and do not allow non-whites to reside in the town. To me at least, the town is an indication of what an Afrikaner nation would be like.

The South African government must be really good at that quiet thing because as a politically active South African actually living in South Africa I haven't heard anything about it! Strange that! South Africa's economy is going through the longest period of consecutive quarters of economic growth. The JSE has gone through the magical 20 000 mark, interests rates are at historically low levels, inflation has been inside the target range of between 3% and 6% for many years, the budget deficit has been reduced from 9% before 1994 to between 2% and 3% now and there is a huge inflow of foreign capital. The White South African workforce is still important to the growth of the economy. It's only been eleven years since Apartheid ended and the problems resulting from the inferior education forced on non-white people still has not been resolved. The unemployment rate among White Safricans is 4% whereas it's at 40% for Black Safricans.
It is indeed important to the growth of the economy. Yet the way things are going in the country, there is very little incentive to stay there for most white South Africans. As for high unemployment among black South Africans, that is something the government will have to start resolving soon. I just hope it doesn't attempt the use of reverse-discrimination policies. Also, it remains odd to me that the president is elected by the Parliament and not the populace at large. Then it still has the AIDs problem to consider, as well as inter-tribal conflicts and crime, although it is said crime in the country has been falling. Is it still legally impossible to force a squatter of one's property?

And I'm sure you can understand why Afrikaners were not granted a separate nation. Can you really see any good coming from a nation of only Afrikaners? We already have a little town here comprised of only Afrikaners. Apparently they have their own currency and do not allow non-whites to reside in the town. To me at least, the town is an indication of what an Afrikaner nation would be like.
Which town is it anyway? The reason for not allowing such a secession would be that neither party would gain much from it economically.

I am particularly pissed off at Trevor Richards and his family and friends. I can bet any amount that while they were living in South Africa they didn't identify as 'African'. I really enjoyed the whole 'he's not racist! he's got black friends' part. Idiots.

I am particularly pissed off at Trevor Richards and his family and friends. I can bet any amount that while they were living in South Africa they didn't identify as 'African'. I really enjoyed the whole 'he's not racist! he's got black friends' part. Idiots.
Was he not that guy that was given an interview on British television recently? I missed. Shame, because I wanted to see it.

The name of the town is Orania. And they have a webpage. The city is for Afrikaaners only.
http://www.orania.co.za/default2.asp

The name of the town is Orania. And they have a webpage. The city is for Afrikaaners only.
http://www.orania.co.za/default2.asp
How odd. :confused: All the time I lived there I had never heard of it.

Yet the skin colour is not. It exists. I think what the OP means is to determine whether or not the term African is synonymous with dark skin colour, which it usually it is.
Line all the humans up from "least melanin" to "most melanin" and you'll find that there's an almost uniform increase from palest white to darkest brown. Doesn't seem to be very well-defined to me. I agree with Dr. King: people should be "judged [ not ] by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

It is indeed important to the growth of the economy. Yet the way things are going in the country, there is very little incentive to stay there for most white South Africans. As for high unemployment among black South Africans, that is something the government will have to start resolving soon. I just hope it doesn't attempt the use of reverse-discrimination policies. Also, it remains odd to me that the president is elected by the Parliament and not the populace at large. Then it still has the AIDs problem to consider, as well as inter-tribal conflicts and crime, although it is said crime in the country has been falling. Is it still legally impossible to force a squatter of one's property?

The law hasn't been repealed but I doubt it would actually be used in a court case. Thing is, I don't see why you specifically say white South Africans. The desire to leave isn't limited to white people. But otherwise, you're right there are still a great many problems in South Africa but I'll mention the 'eleven-year' thing again. We're a young country and we can't expect things to be resolved overnight. Also as far as I know, Britain also uses that system. The party itself elects the party leader and the party leader then becomes Prime Minister.

And I think Europe has just as many problems, especially with terrorism. But to each their own.

Which town is it anyway? The reason for not allowing such a secession would be that neither party would gain much from it economically.

The town is called Orania. I personally think that the Afrikaner nation would be racist as hell. Out of interest, how long have you been out of SA?

if you believe that crazy evolutionism theory, we are all of african descent.


No thanks... I always wanted to be an Eskimo... cool clothes lol

Line all the humans up from "least melanin" to "most melanin" and you'll find that there's an almost uniform increase from palest white to darkest brown. Doesn't seem to be very well-defined to me. I agree with Dr. King: people should be "judged [ not ] by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Naturally. I am just saying that the main question of the OP was related to skin colour of original Africans really, despite his/her separate questions on race.

The law hasn't been repealed but I doubt it would actually be used in a court case. Thing is, I don't see why you specifically say white South Africans. The desire to leave isn't limited to white people. But otherwise, you're right there are still a great many problems in South Africa but I'll mention the 'eleven-year' thing again. We're a young country and we can't expect things to be resolved overnight. Also as far as I know, Britain also uses that system. The party itself elects the party leader and the party leader then becomes Prime Minister.

And I think Europe has just as many problems, especially with terrorism. But to each their own.
If things in the country do improve, I might go back to it. Otherwise, I think I'm staying in Europe, and most possibly going to Sweden or Switzerland due to their standard of living. My main concern is employment; the country itself is not so bad otherwise, with the exception of odd laws here and there. I am both European and South African, so either way is good. The reason I mentioned white South Africans specifically is because such laws affect the wealthy, and most whites are wealthy, although Indians and many blacks also belong to that class now.

The town is called Orania. I personally think that the Afrikaner nation would be racist as hell. Out of interest, how long have you been out of SA?
The last 7 years really. I've been back quite often on holidays, especially to Margate. It's almost exactly how it was when I left.

It would be interesting to have heard MLK's opionion on the matter. After all he did talk of a color blind society.

We are no way in hell even close to that ideal.

Ahhh well.....

White Africans are no more and no less African than other Africans.

Naturally. I am just saying that the main question of the OP was related to skin colour of original Africans really, despite his/her separate questions on race.

I would hope not. Skin color is only one component (and a fairly misleading one, at that) of overall phenotype, which is not synonymous with the social construct of "race".

I know I'm repeating a lot of other people's comments, but yeah, race is a social construct. Some anthropologists will pare the world populations down to Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid, but these huge generalizations leave out an awful lot of people, like about a billion South Asians and a lot of indigenous people, like native Australians, that also have "blended" characteristics. In Brazil, there are hundreds of different "races" based on all the various possible combinations of skin tones and hair colors. In some countries, race can change, and in others, we're stuck with the assignment we get at birth based on our skin color.

Race and ethnicity are different things, but even ethnicity can be kind of vague and gray. I think it goes beyond genetics, heredity, place of birth, language spoken, etc. and really boils down to how a person chooses to identify his or her self.

Um, but to answer the original question, "African" can simply mean "from Africa," and there a lot of white folks born/living in Africa, so no. =)