NationStates Jolt Archive


1997 North Hollywood Shootout

New-Lexington
12-02-2006, 19:02
My biggest bit of reaserch for a post:

The North Hollywood shootout was an armed confrontation between two heavily-armed and armored bank robbers (Larry Eugene Phillips, Jr. and Emil Dechebal Matasareanu) and patrol and SWAT officers of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) on February 28, 1997.







The shootout
At 9:15 a.m. that morning Phillips and Matasareanu robbed a Bank of America branch office in North Hollywood, Los Angeles, California. They were armed with illegally-owned assault rifles and wore body armor covering their torsos, as well as home-made Kevlar protection wrapped around their arms and legs. The pair emerged from the bank and encountered responding LAPD patrol officers, and the firefight began. After five minutes, three civilians and nine police officers had been wounded, and a TAC (tactical) alert was issued. Ultimately, 350 LAPD officers, including SWAT team members, were present at the scene. The suspects fired approximately 1,100 rounds of ammunition in one of the most violent shootouts in U.S. law enforcement history.

Weapons
• LAPD patrol officers and detectives
o Beretta 92FS 9mm pistols
o .38 Special revolvers
o Remington and Ithaca 12-gauge pump-action shotguns
• LAPD SWAT
o Colt M16A2 assault rifles
o Colt XM177E2 carbines
• Bank Robbers
o 3 AKM assault rifles
o 1 HK G3A4 battle rifle
o 1 M16A1 assault rifle with 100 round C-Mag
o Beretta 92F pistol
Outcome
After a long-running gun battle, Phillips stopped firing due to a jam in his AKM assault rifle. By this time he had already split up from Matasareanu, and was walking down a side street while firing at the police. Phillips abandoned his malfunctioning rifle and began using his Beretta 92F pistol. He continued to fire at officers with the handgun, but the police wounded him in the right hand, causing him to drop his weapon. After picking up the pistol with his left hand, Phillips continued firing and took cover behind a parked truck. He moved again and continued firing. Shortly thereafter, Phillips placed the muzzle of his pistol under his chin and apparently shot himself while a police round simultaneously severed his spine. The question remains whether Phillips had intentionally committed suicide or had accidentally squeezed the trigger when his spine was severed while attempting to reload his weapon one-handed.
Matasareanu was critically wounded by SWAT team members while attempting to drive off in the getaway car. He commandeered a passing pickup truck, and transferred weapons from the getaway car to the truck. However, he was unable to start the truck (reportedly, the owner of the truck had rigged a kill switch under the steering column and turned it off, thereby rendering the truck inoperable), and surrendered after firing off all his remaining ammunition. The police radioed for an ambulance, but Matasareanu succumbed to his wounds by the time the ambulance had reached the scene.
During the shootout, a total of twelve officers and eight civilians were wounded (many severely), and there were two fatalities (Phillips and Matasareanu.) The LAPD was later criticized for not allowing Matasareanu to receive medical attention immediately, which could have been life-saving; the department countered by stating that ambulance personnel were following standard procedure in hostile situations by refusing to enter "the hot zone", as Matasareanu was still considered to be dangerous. In addition, there were also onlooker reports of other suspects in the area, which further delayed the ambulance response. These reports were later determined by the authorities to be sightings of plainclothes police officers wearing body armor.
This shooting bore similarities to both an actual earlier shootout in Norco, California on May 9, 1980 and a fictional incident in the movie Heat. There was speculation that Phillips and Matasareanu used Heat as a training film.

Facts
• Larry Phillips was shot 11 times, and Emil Matasareanu was shot 29 times.
• Total amount stolen: USD$303,305.
• Around 370 LAPD officers were called in.
• Other than the LAPD, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and some units of the California Highway Patrol responded to the scene.
• The following year, seventeen LAPD officers were awarded Medals of Valor from the department for their actions and bravery during the shootout. They are:
Police Sergeant I. Medina
Police Detective T. Angeles
Police Detective V. Bancroft
Police Detective T. Culotta
Police Detective K. Harley
Police Officer Class III D. Anderson
Police Officer E. Brentlinger
Police Officer Class III A. Cabunoc
Police Officer Class III J. Caprarelli
Police Officer E. Dominguez
Police Officer Class III S. Gomez
Police Officer Class III R. Massa
Police Officer C. Perriguey
Police Officer T. Schmitz
Police Officer C. Torrez
Police Officer J. Zboravan
Police Officer R. Zielinski

Aftermath
The incident highlighted the growing divergence between the means available to the police and the offensive and defensive technologies employed by criminals. Video footage of the incident clearly shows police pistol bullets striking the suspects with little or no effect, largely due to the body armor worn by the suspects. Their body armor was able to stop the .38 caliber and 9mm projectiles fired by the officers' service handguns.
The ineffectiveness of the pistol rounds in penetrating the suspects' body armor led to a trend in the United States towards arming selected police patrol officers with .223 caliber/5.56mm assault rifles such as the M16, providing first responders greater ability to effectively confront and neutralize heavily armed and armored criminals.
Advocates of gun control in the United States cited the incident as evidence that U.S. gun control laws were inadequate to prevent military-class weaponry ending up in the hands of prior felons. Both Phillips and Matasareanu had been arrested in 1996 for armed robbery, but later won the legal return of their assault rifles. They argue that without adequate gun regulation there is no gun enforcement, leading to easier access by criminals.
They further argue that weapons move with money; and that without any deterrence against gun manufacturers and distributors, simple economics dictates that guns will be supplied to those with a demand for them, including those who wish to use them illegally, ultimately giving criminals an advantage over law enforcement in the street arms race.
The LAPD patrol officers were not adequately armed or protected to deal with such criminals. The gunmen were firing rifle rounds from illegally-modified fully-automatic assault rifles while being protected by full body armor. The officers' handguns and shotguns could not penetrate through the suspects' armor, while the suspects' weapons were capable of severely wounding officers and bystanders even through cement walls and automobiles.
Opponents of gun control counter that as the weapons had been obtained illegally, the incident did not indicate that criminal use of legally registered fully-automatic firearms was a problem; to date there has been no recorded commission of a crime with a legally-registered fully automatic firearm by the legal owner - a few stolen weapons have been used by criminals. They also point out that during the shootout, LAPD patrol officers acquired more powerful rifles and shotgun ammunition from a nearby gun shop, which had the potential to penetrate body armor or at least fracture bones through armor. The borrowed weapons and ammunition were never deployed, as SWAT had arrived on the scene first.
In addition, the opponents of gun control argue that more and stricter gun control laws are not required, as these would mostly affect law-abiding citizens without reducing the illegal use of firearms by criminals (who, by definition, do not obey the law.) They state that what is required is more stringent enforcement of existing laws against possession of firearms by criminals. Also of note is that the incident happened during California's AWB (Assault Weapons Ban), which to some opponents of gun control, is further proof that such bans don't work and instead show inherent flaws in gun control.

Lawsuit: Matasareanu's children filed a lawsuit against the LAPD police department, citing that the LAPD let Matasareanu bleed to death. In Jan of 2000, an out of court settlement was reached.


My 2cents: That lawsuit is absolutely ridiculous, the guy had just gunned down innocent civilians, he deserved to die!
Penetrobe
12-02-2006, 21:10
There were also two tactical reasons they watched him bleed out.

1) Its called a walking list. Its the way they determine who gets treatment at a crime scene. Civilians first, then police officers, then the perpetrators.

2) Matasareanu was wearing a ton of armor. Under which he could have had an explosive device. Cops and paramedics are told not to touch anyone under those circumstancees until the bomb squad arrives and checks him out.
The Infinite Dunes
12-02-2006, 21:58
Seriously, there has to be a better way to respond to an incident than this.

Like putting purple dye explosives in the money bags to make the money worthless.
Using helecopters and tracking devices so that you can let the suspects leave the area so that no one gets injured and then engage the suspects on your terms by setting up a civilian free road block.
Gravlen
12-02-2006, 21:58
Lawsuit: Matasareanu's children filed a lawsuit against the LAPD police department, citing that the LAPD let Matasareanu bleed to death. In Jan of 2000, an out of court settlement was reached.


My 2cents: That lawsuit is absolutely ridiculous, the guy had just gunned down innocent civilians, he deserved to die!

Maybe you feel that way, but that's not up to the police to decide, is it now... That's a matter for the courts. If the police just let him die for no good reason (and "he deserved it" is not a valid reason) than the lawsuit may have been warranted.

By the way, I liked this movie on the subject:
44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shoot-Out (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0362389/)
Penetrobe
12-02-2006, 22:34
Seriously, there has to be a better way to respond to an incident than this.

Like putting purple dye explosives in the money bags to make the money worthless.
Using helecopters and tracking devices so that you can let the suspects leave the area so that no one gets injured and then engage the suspects on your terms by setting up a civilian free road block.

You can't let them go. This was two maniacs with lots of guns, not the henchmen of some larger group who will lead you to a bigger target.

These men had killed prior to this incident and had to be stopped right then and there.

And what if these men go back to their hideout in a crowded area?
New-Lexington
12-02-2006, 22:38
Maybe you feel that way, but that's not up to the police to decide, is it now... That's a matter for the courts. If the police just let him die for no good reason (and "he deserved it" is not a valid reason) than the lawsuit may have been warranted.

By the way, I liked this movie on the subject:
44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shoot-Out (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0362389/)
well he probably was going 2die any way, i dotn think many people can survive 26 bullet wounds
Dispossesed Honkeys
12-02-2006, 22:52
#1 There are no innocents.

#2 They did let him bleed out, and it wasnt due to fear of a bomb or they wouldnt have kept a knee in the small of his back while he died!

#3 Law enforcement in US has an "us and them" philosophy. They believe they are above "civilians", it is actually a derogatory word meaning "one who is incapable of securing his own honor"

#4 Those 2 guys ROCKED!! While some basic combat skills would have effeceted a more favorable outcome for them. I respect that they went for the brass ring. Unlike most "sheeple" they didnt buy into that "win by losing- turn the other cheek" slaves mentality that centuries of Chritiandom seems to have emasculated our people with.
Gravlen
12-02-2006, 22:55
well he probably was going 2die any way, i dotn think many people can survive 26 bullet wounds
But that's a different matter. You claimed that the lawsuit was absolutely ridiculous, and the question then becomes: Did the police do what they were supposed to do? Or did they do something irregular? It's on those grounds you have to judge the validity of the suit, not whether or not the bankrobber "deserved" to die.

You can't let them go. This was two maniacs with lots of guns, not the henchmen of some larger group who will lead you to a bigger target.

These men had killed prior to this incident and had to be stopped right then and there.

And what if these men go back to their hideout in a crowded area?

They had killed before? You sure about that? All the OP stated was arrests in 1996 for armed robbery.

You have to make a decision on the safest course of action - You can let them go and catch them later if that is a possibility, because you then avoid a possible hostage-situation in the bank.
Chellis
12-02-2006, 22:57
The saddest part is that most or all of this could have been stopped if any civilians in the area had had a decent caliber hunting rifle, or a sporter('assault weapon'). This is a perfect example of criminals being the only ones left with these guns.
New-Lexington
12-02-2006, 22:58
But that's a different matter. You claimed that the lawsuit was absolutely ridiculous, and the question then becomes: Did the police do what they were supposed to do? Or did they do something irregular? It's on those grounds you have to judge the validity of the suit, not whether or not the bankrobber "deserved" to die.



They had killed before? You sure about that? All the OP stated was arrests in 1996 for armed robbery.

You have to make a decision on the safest course of action - You can let them go and catch them later if that is a possibility, because you then avoid a possible hostage-situation in the bank.
whether they had killed b4 or not it was clear they would kill easily
The Infinite Dunes
12-02-2006, 23:02
You can't let them go. This was two maniacs with lots of guns, not the henchmen of some larger group who will lead you to a bigger target.

These men had killed prior to this incident and had to be stopped right then and there.

And what if these men go back to their hideout in a crowded area?Well if you let them think they have escaped then they calm down and stop firing their weapons. If they think they've escaped then they have no reason to take hostages because by their reasoning that would only draw attention to themselves. These men WANT to disapear, not draw attention to themselves. Like I've said before. People don't look up to check for the police helicopter when they're in a high state of stress and trying their hardest just to evade the cops on the ground. You then have the house watched and follow them if they move before the morning and if they don't then you perform a morning raid when they're mostly likely tired and in bed.

Police confrontations tend to cause more casualties (because of a prolonged firefight). And all this is for the sake of $300,000? That's nothing, absolutely nothing. Think of the damage that was caused because of this confrontation. You main objective is stop any civilian casualties. These men won't shoot people unless they're frightened by the police. Your next objective is to arrest the criminals. If you can maintain a good tail on them then you're fine. Your last objective is to recover the cash. The bank's insurance policy will easily cover this. Besides bank security procedures should have made the money unusable.

This is where US policing differs from European policing (and there is robbery in Europe the US). *goes to find proof*
Gravlen
12-02-2006, 23:05
whether they had killed b4 or not it was clear they would kill easily

True, and that would have made them dangerous hostage-takers as well. According to the movie, the staff and customers locked themselves in the vault when the robbers came in for the second time (After the shooting had started), and thus a hostage situation (or a massacre) was avoided.
The Infinite Dunes
12-02-2006, 23:05
The saddest part is that most or all of this could have been stopped if any civilians in the area had had a decent caliber hunting rifle, or a sporter('assault weapon'). This is a perfect example of criminals being the only ones left with these guns.Or that the US had much stricter gun laws. Yes, the guns they were using were illegal, but stricter gun laws means they are harder to get as they can't easily be hidden among other shipments of guns.
Chellis
12-02-2006, 23:11
Or that the US had much stricter gun laws. Yes, the guns they were using were illegal, but stricter gun laws means they are harder to get as they can't easily be hidden among other shipments of guns.

Exactly how much stricter can they get?

The weapons they were using were illegal through the entire US, except for the beretta. These weapons couldn't have just been hidden with other guns. By far and large, AK's, AR-15's, and G3a4's were all banned in the US(since almost all of them contained at least two features that made them illegal).

The only way to have stopped this with gun laws would have been to make every gun in the nation illegal, searched every house and building without any notice to the people, do regular random searches, and outlaw the sale of ammunition, so that after a few decades, none of the guns could really be reliably used. In short, a police state.

Instead of taking a giant crap on everyone's civil liberties, we could operate like switzerland, where all men of age really are a part of the national militia, and arm all of our people with M-16a2's. Do this and allow concealed carry permits in all states, and no criminal will ever be able to get very far, before his peers condemn him to death.
Gravlen
12-02-2006, 23:19
The saddest part is that most or all of this could have been stopped if any civilians in the area had had a decent caliber hunting rifle, or a sporter('assault weapon'). This is a perfect example of criminals being the only ones left with these guns.

Aha? And how do you figure that would have changed things, compared to what the officers who went to the gunstore got their hands on?
Chellis
13-02-2006, 06:58
Aha? And how do you figure that would have changed things, compared to what the officers who went to the gunstore got their hands on?

It wouldn't have. If you read, the police didn't get to use those because by the time they did it, the swat team had arrived. The police probably had to think of it, call superiors, go there, talk to the manager, borrow them, drive back, etc etc...

If the citizenry around there had been armed and ready, it would have taken them a couple minutes after hearing shots to be out there, to help the police.