NationStates Jolt Archive

Sometimes I wonder if there would be a better way to handle things in the world. Actually, I've been wondering for a long time, what would the world be like if money (as in cash, credit cards, bars of gold, gemstones) just wasn't that important anymore. Would barter be reinstated? Services? Eh.

I have been bartering with my clients a lot this year for my tax services, it seems to work out pretty good, except the electric company actually wants money from me :rolleyes: When my husband and I go off grid we really won't need money for anything but medical stuff. It will be so nice :)

Well, the modern economic system would collapse and things would really be pretty bad for everyone. Services would become mostly nonexistent, and international commerce would pretty much collapse entirely. The last time we reverted to a widespread barter economy was, of course, during the Dark Ages. And I don't think anyone would want to repeat that.

Now, if currency is replaced due to technology, it's different. That would be a major innovation.

Well, the modern economic system would collapse and things would really be pretty bad for everyone. Services would become mostly nonexistent, and international commerce would pretty much collapse entirely. The last time we reverted to a widespread barter economy was, of course, during the Dark Ages. And I don't think anyone would want to repeat that.

Now, if currency is replaced due to technology, it's different. That would be a major innovation.

Replaced due to technology? What do you mean? *is confused*

Replaced due to technology? What do you mean? *is confused*
I think he means everyone pays with everything with debit/credit cards. Nobody accually sees coin and paper money, it is all electronic.

Well, the modern economic system would collapse and things would really be pretty bad for everyone. Services would become mostly nonexistent, and international commerce would pretty much collapse entirely.

Or, on the other hand... none of that would happen.

Well... the 'modern economic system' would collapse... in as much as, 'be replaced'...

Replaced due to technology? What do you mean? *is confused*

If you had a way to assign values to goods without money, perhaps through use of some kind of computer trading program or exchange where the value of goods is determined by a market or something.

I have been bartering with my clients a lot this year for my tax services, it seems to work out pretty good, except the electric company actually wants money from me :rolleyes: When my husband and I go off grid we really won't need money for anything but medical stuff. It will be so nice :)
When you go "off grid?" Say more about this. It sounds ... intriguing. :)

Do you think money is necessary to lead our lives? I think it would be interesting if some other way could be found for us to get supplies, get luxuries, etc.

I have been bartering with my clients a lot this year for my tax services, it seems to work out pretty good, except the electric company actually wants money from me :rolleyes: When my husband and I go off grid we really won't need money for anything but medical stuff. It will be so nice :)
*gives smunkee the look*

you will still owe TAXES on the money you make even if you barter your services.


and TAX is the reason why we cant go off the money system. cant expect the irs to take its cut in chickens now can we?

*gives smunkee the look*

you will still owe TAXES on the money you make even if you barter your services.


and TAX is the reason why we cant go off the money system. cant expect the irs to take its cut in chickens now can we?

Well, why not chickens? They could use them for something, I'm sure.

one of the ways i choose to look at money is as a means of immediate transaction or exchange.

now what if that transation were to no longer be immediate?
what if it were to be long-term?

say, your entire lifetime?

you could argue that i put in my life's worth of labour - and the products/fruits of that labour - into society over my lifetime, and in return i recieve from society all the fruits of other people's labour i require over my lifetime, as everyone else works on the same principle.
the transaction is no longer immediate, but life-long and, admittedly more vague, but the essential barter - of which money is simply a tool, a mechanism for - is still there


hence, as long as society is prevelant, money could be restructured in this way maybe *shrugs* just an idea

When you go "off grid?" Say more about this. It sounds ... intriguing. :)
here (http://www.ecocottages.com/), just to give you an idea.





you will still owe TAXES on the money you make even if you barter your services.


and TAX is the reason why we cant go off the money system. cant expect the irs to take its cut in chickens now can we?
my income is offset by my expenses, if it costs me $30 to do taxes for someone who gives me services in the fair market value of $30 what tax do I owe?

one of the ways i choose to look at money is as a means of immediate transaction or exchange.

now what if that transation were to no longer be immediate?
what if it were to be long-term?

say, your entire lifetime?

you could argue that i put in my life's worth of labour - and the products/fruits of that labour - into society over my lifetime, and in return i recieve from society all the fruits of other people's labour i require over my lifetime, as everyone else works on the same principle.
the transaction is no longer immediate, but life-long and, admittedly more vague, but the essential barter - of which money is simply a tool, a mechanism for - is still there


hence, as long as society is prevelant, money could be restructured in this way maybe *shrugs* just an idea

I like your thinking.

I don't think I, personally, will ever be able to change the money system just to revamp it to my own liking. Which kinda sucks. Unless I find my own little island, start my own community, and do whatever I want with my time. But then, I don't think I'd need money anymore - just for preliminary supplies.

Do you think money is necessary to lead our lives? I think it would be interesting if some other way could be found for us to get supplies, get luxuries, etc.
Some reasons why it would be difficult if not impossible to replace money:

1. Portability. Money is a lightweight medium of exchange, unlike trying to barter 1,000 iron bars for 5,000 hogs.

2. Greed. If money were to be replaced with something else, then that something would become the object of greed just as money is now.

3. Government. It's far easier to compute and collect taxes on monetary income than it is to compute and collect taxes on barter items.

4. Flexibility. It's relatively easy to figure out relative market values of goods and services in monetary terms, and to convey information about those values over networks.

one of the ways i choose to look at money is as a means of immediate transaction or exchange.

now what if that transation were to no longer be immediate?
what if it were to be long-term?

say, your entire lifetime?

you could argue that i put in my life's worth of labour - and the products/fruits of that labour - into society over my lifetime, and in return i recieve from society all the fruits of other people's labour i require over my lifetime, as everyone else works on the same principle.
the transaction is no longer immediate, but life-long and, admittedly more vague, but the essential barter - of which money is simply a tool, a mechanism for - is still there
We already have that. It's called "savings and investment." :)

Well, obviously with the world as it is today, changing the economic system would be hard...understatement. But my question was, do you think it's necessary?

I think giving up money is just too hard for people because we're all too selfish. We want more, more, more, all the time. A world without money then, isn't easy to comprehend.

here (http://www.ecocottages.com/), just to give you an idea.



my income is offset by my expenses, if it costs me $30 to do taxes for someone who gives me services in the fair market value of $30 what tax do I owe?
*gasp*

as a tax professional you should know the answer to that. dont make the mistake of "it makes sense so it must be true". nothing about the tax code is based on sense

if you do $!00 worth of work for the electrician who does $100 worth of wiring on your house you have BOTH made $100 and must pay the appropriate income tax on it.

Well, why not chickens? They could use them for something, I'm sure.
how many chickens does it take to pay for a stealth bomber? is it credited wholesale or retail and what does the manufacturer of the plane DO with a few billion live chickens??

Sometimes I wonder if there would be a better way to handle things in the world. Actually, I've been wondering for a long time, what would the world be like if money (as in cash, credit cards, bars of gold, gemstones) just wasn't that important anymore. Would barter be reinstated? Services? Eh.

You know...civilization evolves for a reason...

*gasp*

as a tax professional you should know the answer to that. dont make the mistake of "it makes sense so it must be true". nothing about the tax code is based on sense

if you do $!00 worth of work for the electrician who does $100 worth of wiring on your house you have BOTH made $100 and must pay the appropriate income tax on it.
I don't think you understand the schedule C

gross income-expenses=net income

if my expenses equal my income I don't owe any tax. In fact I don't really even have to get that close, since a couple who is married with 2 kids can make 45,000 now and still not pay any taxes.

figure it this way, I will own my house, the land, have no bills (electric, water, ect.) my husband and children are my employees, so he really only has to make enough to pay our ins. premiums which are deductible on my business, then whatever else I make is offset by my home office expense, the depriciation of my equipment, and any other expenses I have.

I won't owe any tax.

Well, why not chickens? They could use them for something, I'm sure.
[ has a vision of Bill Gates sending two entire chicken farms every month to the IRS! ] ROFLMAO!

Ugh. Evolution. Learning about that now in AP Bio. Sometimes I wonder if Aristotle was right, with his two-world theory, how there is a perfect world, and one of errors - and how we are in the world of errors at the moment. Of course there are those who say the perfect world if Heaven...but that's not the point of this thread.

And as for the chickens, maybe if you supplemented them with some goats and lumber? Money might be the reason the stealth bomber was made in the first place. It just changes hands so you can buy more stuff anyways.

You know...civilization evolves for a reason...
Yes, but that doesn't necissarily mean it evolves into something more beneficial.

I don't think you understand the schedule C

gross income-expenses=net income

if my expenses equal my income I don't owe any tax. In fact I don't really even have to get that close, since a couple who is married with 2 kids can make 45,000 now and still not pay any taxes.

figure it this way, I will own my house, the land, have no bills (electric, water, ect.) my husband and children are my employees, so he really only has to make enough to pay our ins. premiums which are deductible on my business, then whatever else I make is offset by my home office expense, the depriciation of my equipment, and any other expenses I have.

I won't owe any tax.
But ... you'll still have to file and justify not paying taxes.

[ has a vision of Bill Gates sending two entire chicken farms every month to the IRS! ] ROFLMAO!

Hahahaha. Thanks, that just made my day.

It also wouldn't be worth his time to pick up a $100 bill if it was laying on the ground in front of him, I heard.

why barter when you could have global economy with single currency?

I don't think you understand the schedule C

gross income-expenses=net income

if my expenses equal my income I don't owe any tax. In fact I don't really even have to get that close, since a couple who is married with 2 kids can make 45,000 now and still not pay any taxes.

figure it this way, I will own my house, the land, have no bills (electric, water, ect.) my husband and children are my employees, so he really only has to make enough to pay our ins. premiums which are deductible on my business, then whatever else I make is offset by my home office expense, the depriciation of my equipment, and any other expenses I have.

I won't owe any tax.
i understand that you might not make enough money to pay taxes. i dont understand what "expenses" are incurred in a tax preparation business. i DO know that bartering doesnt make any difference in the calculation of your income. if you do tax prep for someone who does you $30 worth of work, you made $30. any expenses you have are seperate from that. that they might total more than you make is different from the whole barter thing.

*gasp*

as a tax professional you should know the answer to that. dont make the mistake of "it makes sense so it must be true". nothing about the tax code is based on sense

if you do $!00 worth of work for the electrician who does $100 worth of wiring on your house you have BOTH made $100 and must pay the appropriate income tax on it.

I'm not entirely sure this is true.

That would mean that, because every 'service' has a dollar figure that COULD be attributed to it... I have to declare on my taxes every time I mow my mother-in-laws' lawn?

But ... you'll still have to file and justify not paying taxes.
sure.

Will the U.S ever pay off its debt?

Hahahaha. Thanks, that just made my day.

It also wouldn't be worth his time to pick up a $100 bill if it was laying on the ground in front of him, I heard.
Glad I could lift your day a bit. :)

Well, that's Mrs. Gates' little boy. Mrs. Horn's little boy has no such problem! Heh!

i understand that you might not make enough money to pay taxes. i dont understand what "expenses" are incurred in a tax preparation business.
same types of expenses that are incurred in any other business, if I drive a car for business I can deduct my oil changes, repairs, gas, ect. If I have a home office I can deduct any expenses that come with that (phone line, computer, paper, pens, internet service)



i DO know that bartering doesnt make any difference in the calculation of your income. if you do tax prep for someone who does you $30 worth of work, you made $30. any expenses you have are seperate from that.
not really.

lets say I make $30 in my business, I then barter with someone else in the amount of $30 both of those amounts go on the same line of my schedule C, then I get to deduct my expenses on my schedule C, on the very last line of my schedule C is my net income from business.......that's what I would use to figure my tax, if it's 0 I don't owe any tax, it can be up to 20,000 and I wouldn't owe any tax. (well, employment taxes, and such but I am talking about Federal taxes here)

Here (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sc.pdf) see if this helps you understand that a person who owns a business figures thier taxes different than someone who gets paid wages.

I'm not entirely sure this is true.

That would mean that, because every 'service' has a dollar figure that COULD be attributed to it... I have to declare on my taxes every time I mow my mother-in-laws' lawn?
oh its true. the irs had to clamp down on it because some people were doing a large amount of business that way in order to avoid income tax.

i dont know where they draw the line. if you trade off babysitting with a friend will they get you for it? if you watch your neighbors house when he's on vacation and he does the same for you, are you avoiding taxes? if you mow your mother in laws lawn and she makes you dinner? there must be some rational limit.

Who determines how much of our money/income goes towards taxes? Sorry - I'm too young to really understand this whole "tax" thing. I don't exactly understand how it works, or what our money pays for.

That would mean that, because every 'service' has a dollar figure that COULD be attributed to it... I have to declare on my taxes every time I mow my mother-in-laws' lawn?
Technically yes, but only if you recieved remuneration for it.

not really.

lets say I make $30 in my business, I then barter with someone else in the amount of $30 both of those amounts go on the same line of my schedule C, then I get to deduct my expenses on my schedule C, on the very last line of my schedule C is my net income from business.......that's what I would use to figure my tax, if it's 0 I don't owe any tax, it can be up to 20,000 and I wouldn't owe any tax. (well, employment taxes, and such but I am talking about Federal taxes here)

Here (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sc.pdf) see if this helps you understand that a person who owns a business figures thier taxes different than someone who gets paid wages.
all im saying is that if you do $30 in barter, that goes onto your income off of which you subtract your expenses.

all im saying is that if you do $30 in barter, that goes onto your income off of which you subtract your expenses.
oh yeah. sure. ;)

Technically yes, but only if you recieved remuneration for it.

Not according to Ashmoria's version...

Of course, the simple solution would be to not agree dollar amounts with your client....

If I provide a free service, and my client provides a free service... how do you even file taxes on the 'no income'?

Who determines how much of our money/income goes towards taxes? Sorry - I'm too young to really understand this whole "tax" thing. I don't exactly understand how it works, or what our money pays for.
your government decides. Depending on where you live you may get to vote on some things, or you may just vote for your rep and hope he doesn't screw you out of your money (although that's really false hope these days)

I support the fair tax (http://www.fairtax.org/), mostly because it would be best for me, since then I could get off without paying any taxes at all (since I have other skills I could barter besides tax prep.)

Not according to Ashmoria's version...

Of course, the simple solution would be to not agree dollar amounts with your client....

If I provide a free service, and my client provides a free service... how do you even file taxes on the 'no income'?
you don't.

If you ever once make any money at all then it becomes a business (since you have to claim that money somewhere) if however I "volunteer" my tax prep services and others "volunteer" thier services technically I am not running a business, I am just helping out friends and neighbors. ;) That doesn't seem to fly too well with the IRS though.

There actually is a line in tax code that says you have to pay taxes on money made illegally too, but I doubt anyone ever does.

I can see the schedule C now

Nature of business: Illegal Brothel

Expenses:

sheets
condoms
chains


okay I better stop.

Is it possible to evade taxes legally? Illegally...there are lots of fun and dangerous ways, but I don't know about legally. Running away? Maybe not.

Is it possible to evade taxes legally? Illegally...there are lots of fun and dangerous ways, but I don't know about legally. Running away? Maybe not.
legally no. Either you owe taxes or you don't.

If you owe you must pay. There are ways to ensure you don't pay anymore than you owe, like learning about the tax code, and hiring someone like me:) those are perfectly legal.

Is it possible to evade taxes legally? Illegally...there are lots of fun and dangerous ways, but I don't know about legally. Running away? Maybe not.
not evade, AVOID

there is a whole industry devoted to helping people and corporations avoid taxes. there are types of investments that are tax free. there are ways to increase your expenses to offset income (as in smunkees example) there are "tax shelters" that you put money into. (i dont know what tax shelters are left)

my inlaws are looking to putting their worldly goods into a living trust as a way to avoid inheritance taxes after they die.

Do those people who go after you when you don't pay your taxes enjoy themselves? Are they reduced to the level of telemarketers, who are almost universally hated by all?

What about your house? Won't you have to pay property tax? What about medical expenses? And do you really think the IRS doesn't have a contingency for plans like yours?




One more thing about money: It gives us a common ground that bartering doesn't.

Example: I am a plumber and you are a chicken farmer. You need your kitchen sink fixed and offer me a couple good friers. One problem: I'm a vegetarian. The chickens are useless to me.

However, if you trade those chickens for their cash value and then gve me the cash, I can do whatever I want with the cash.

When it comes down to it, what's the difference between money and barter? Money is representative and goods are tangible. What else? Why is one better than the other? I think they come down to the same thing. And I'm sure human nature wouldn't be changed. So.. what's the benefit?

Example: I am a plumber and you are a chicken farmer. You need your kitchen sink fixed and offer me a couple good friers. One problem: I'm a vegetarian. The chickens are useless to me.

However, if you trade those chickens for their cash value and then gve me the cash, I can do whatever I want with the cash.

Still the chickens! Ahhh!

But why don't you just do things occasionally do things for free, out of goodwill? You could just fix your friend the chicken farmer's sink, and then go about your business when you're done. Why ask for payment all the time?

Still the chickens! Ahhh!

But why don't you just do things occasionally do things for free, out of goodwill? You could just fix your friend the chicken farmer's sink, and then go about your business when you're done. Why ask for payment all the time?
Uh ... because one must eat on occassion? :rolleyes:

[ offers Starps some chicken-ripple ice cream ] :D

Uh ... because one must eat on occassion? :rolleyes:

[ offers Starps some chicken-ripple ice cream ] :D

*accepts the chicken ice cream*

Yes, but if everyone did everything for free, then we wouldn't ever go hungry or serviceless again...there's probably something fundamentally wrong and naive about that statement. Oh well.

*accepts the chicken ice cream*

Yes, but if everyone did everything for free, then we wouldn't ever go hungry or serviceless again...there's probably something fundamentally wrong and naive about that statement. Oh well.
Enjoy! :D

Yes, there is. It's called "human nature." :p

What about your house? Won't you have to pay property tax? What about medical expenses? And do you really think the IRS doesn't have a contingency for plans like yours?




One more thing about money: It gives us a common ground that bartering doesn't.

Example: I am a plumber and you are a chicken farmer. You need your kitchen sink fixed and offer me a couple good friers. One problem: I'm a vegetarian. The chickens are useless to me.

However, if you trade those chickens for their cash value and then gve me the cash, I can do whatever I want with the cash.
yeah thats exactly why barter doesnt work in a modern society. the economy is much too complicated for a simple transfer of services to work

but, yeah, if you dont make enough money to pay taxes, you don't pay them. you still have to pay property tax (among other taxes) that can be a problem if you are in an area where property values are increasing rapidly. (unless you are planning on selling your house, all that increase in value does for you is increase your property taxes)

you have to be willing to live on $45k/year (again using smunkee's example) with 2 small children to raise. it certainly can be done. for some people living "off the grid" is enough of an incentive to do many many things that other people wont do. grow your own food (the irs hasnt gotten to that one yet) put in solar or wind power generators, live without things that we take for granted (sometimes phones, cable tv, internet, other things) heat your house with the firewood you cut yourself, get water from your own well. it varies from family to family what is possible and what they are willing to do.

Ugh. Human nature. I think that's the answer to everything.

Why do people argue over religion? Human nature.
Why are people blowing each other up? Human nature.
Why do we have money? Human nature.
Why are teenagers hopelessly "emo" and "depressed"? Human nature.
Why was chicken-ripple ice cream invented? ...uh...human nature?

I like to give of myself freely (no, I don't plan on becoming a prostitute) to other people just because I think that not everything should come with a price. Friendship, "love"...eh.

*hits self for rambling*

When it comes down to it, what's the difference between money and barter? Money is representative and goods are tangible. What else? Why is one better than the other? I think they come down to the same thing. And I'm sure human nature wouldn't be changed. So.. what's the benefit?
Money is better because it is universal (who doesn't want a fresh US Dollar? Communists, that's who!) and is easy to carry around (I can go about wearing nothing but a strategically situated pouch, and in that pouch carry enough funds to purchase a car. Can you imagine trying to do that with, say, chickens).
On the other hand, money is easier to steal and a lot of people seem to have trouble following their incomings and outgoings with money, possibly because it is more abstract then chickens.
And one can't rely on beneficience and charity to regulate all human engagements, because some people (like myself) have the capacity for neither.

Money is better because it is universal (who doesn't want a fresh US Dollar? Communists, that's who!) and is easy to carry around (I can go about wearing nothing but a strategically situated pouch, and in that pouch carry enough funds to purchase a car. Can you imagine trying to do that with, say, chickens).
On the other hand, money is easier to steal and a lot of people seem to have trouble following their incomings and outgoings with money, possibly because it is more abstract then chickens.
And one can't rely on beneficience and charity to regulate all human engagements, because some people (like myself) have the capacity for neither.

The chickens...

Someone above mentioned a universal currency. Do you think that should happen? I don't understand exchange rates and how they work.

Ugh. Human nature. I think that's the answer to everything.

Why do people argue over religion? Human nature.
Why are people blowing each other up? Human nature.
Why do we have money? Human nature.
Why are teenagers hopelessly "emo" and "depressed"? Human nature.
Why was chicken-ripple ice cream invented? ...uh...human nature?

I like to give of myself freely (no, I don't plan on becoming a prostitute) to other people just because I think that not everything should come with a price. Friendship, "love"...eh.

*hits self for rambling*
helping out your neighbors is a great thing. it can make everyones life a bit easier.

you just cant rely on it. your neighbor might be busy when you need his help. or you might have problems that no one you know can help you with. thats where money comes in. you can hire someone to help you with whatever you need and all you have to give him in return is some cash, you never have to do him a favor in return.

What about your house?
my house will be paid off rather quickly seeing as how I am bartering for most of the materials to build it, and my husband and I are doing the labor, it's the land that I will have to pay for, but I will be able to pay it off in less than 2 years if I stick to my budget (which is a long time for us to make payments)

Won't you have to pay property tax?
sure, but I was only talking about not having to pay federal taxes, under the current system I would still have to pay SS, Medicare, ect.

What about medical expenses?
my husband will make enough to pay our insurance premiums and medical, but it won't be enough for us to be required to file taxes.


And do you really think the IRS doesn't have a contingency for plans like yours?
a plan like mine? I am not cheating anyone, everything I discussed is perfectly legal, I expect to get audited at some point but everyone should, I keep good records, if they audit me they won't find any wrong doing, because I won't be doing anything wrong.

The chickens...
For some reason, whenever the issue of barter comes up, chickens immediatly emerge as well, possibly suggesting that the concepts of chickens and money are somehow intimately connected in the human brain.
This has led me to think that the US went the wrong direction in the early days, rather then affixing the dollar to a gold standard, it should have been fixed to the amount of chickens currently in the US.
Someone above mentioned a universal currency. Do you think that should happen? I don't understand exchange rates and how they work.
My economics work is (admittedly) limited, however, I don't think a single universal currency could work easily. For one thing, it would exaggerate pricing irregularities in the world (for instance, developing countries have things at prices that, when converted to American dollars, are dirt cheap. So either 3rd world countries would start having people literally living on 3.5 pence a day or 1st world countries would have people dealing with wheelbarrow loads of near useless money).

I like talking to people who know so much more about these things than I do. *bows down before worthy NS-ers*

The idea of a chicken standard is quite interesting. It would change daily though, wouldn't it, as we slaughtered more chickens one day, had more reproduce the next?

What sort of economic work are you talking about?

you have to be willing to live on $45k/year (again using smunkee's example) with 2 small children to raise. it certainly can be done. for some people living "off the grid" is enough of an incentive to do many many things that other people wont do. grow your own food (the irs hasnt gotten to that one yet) put in solar or wind power generators, live without things that we take for granted (sometimes phones, cable tv, internet, other things) heat your house with the firewood you cut yourself, get water from your own well. it varies from family to family what is possible and what they are willing to do.
true. I am not planning on doing it to "get away from the government" so much as I grew up spending summers on a farm, I like the idea of being self sufficient, I also like the idea of not having to pay for things like water and electricity.
If you really think about it 45K is a lot of money when you don't have any bills other than groceries (like meat) medical, and upkeep for your car (which I may end up getting a solar car anyway if I ever get enough saved up to make one)

The idea of a chicken standard is quite interesting. It would change daily though, wouldn't it, as we slaughtered more chickens one day, had more reproduce the next?

worse yet, my husband does business in china. you arent allowed to import chickens from china because of that whole bird flu thing. what would he DO? accept payment in puppies???

I would like to live, in a self-sufficient manner, growing only what I need, having only what I need. But that probably won't ever happen, since I would also feel the need for electricity, the Internet and such.

I would like to live, in a self-sufficient manner, growing only what I need, having only what I need. But that probably won't ever happen, since I would also feel the need for electricity, the Internet and such.
solar power, and sattelite broadband. :D

I like talking to people who know so much more about these things than I do. *bows down before worthy NS-ers*
We're probably not all that much more knowledgable, we merely know how to BS better than most.
The idea of a chicken standard is quite interesting. It would change daily though, wouldn't it, as we slaughtered more chickens one day, had more reproduce the next?
A whole new array of exciting bureacratic opputunities presents itself. Regulations on slaughtering, rules about eggs number of chicks produced before you may slaughter a chicken, we could waste billions alone merely setting the institutions up, and the running costs would be (doubtless) enormous, as well as the possibility for sabotage.
What sort of economic work are you talking about?
Work was a bad word, I meant "experience." And it is limited to some college work and getting into heated arguments IRL.

true. I am not planning on doing it to "get away from the government" so much as I grew up spending summers on a farm, I like the idea of being self sufficient, I also like the idea of not having to pay for things like water and electricity.
If you really think about it 45K is a lot of money when you don't have any bills other than groceries (like meat) medical, and upkeep for your car (which I may end up getting a solar car anyway if I ever get enough saved up to make one)
yeah i know. i live in a house we built ourselves, we heat it with wood we cut off our property (supplimented by propane for when we are away) we have our own well. it makes the money stretch much farther than living in the 'burbs.

and we dont live in terror that if my husband loses his job we will end up on the street. we know we can always make enough to pay for the life we have here.

i dream of the day when i can have my own solar hydrogen generator to run my hydrogen fuel cell car. it could happen in my lifetime.

i dream of the day when i can have my own solar hydrogen generator to run my hydrogen fuel cell car. it could happen in my lifetime.
Sigh. One can only hope!

[QUOTE=H N Fiddlebottoms VIII]We're probably not all that much more knowledgable, we merely know how to BS better than most.
QUOTE]

I need to learn that skill then.

worse yet, my husband does business in china. you arent allowed to import chickens from china because of that whole bird flu thing. what would he DO? accept payment in puppies???

A puppy standard...more money if it's purebred? Uhhh... *shifty eyes*

Money is better because it is universal

Not true. There are still, to this day, societies that would not accept any recognisable form of currency as 'valid'... and one man's 'dollar' is another man's uselss paper, if the two currencies are not valued against one another... or, if, for example, you were trying to spend dollars in an English store...