NationStates Jolt Archive

WAYNE, N.J. — Evangelist Ken Ham smiled at the 2,300 elementary students packed into pews, their faces rapt. With dinosaur puppets and silly cartoons, he was training them to reject much of geology, paleontology and evolutionary biology as a sinister tangle of lies.

"Boys and girls," Ham said. If a teacher so much as mentions evolution, or the Big Bang, or an era when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, "you put your hand up and you say, 'Excuse me, were you there?' Can you remember that?"

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The children roared their assent.

"Sometimes people will answer, 'No, but you weren't there either,' " Ham told them. "Then you say, 'No, I wasn't, but I know someone who was, and I have his book about the history of the world.' " He waved his Bible in the air.

"Who's the only one who's always been there?" Ham asked.

"God!" the boys and girls shouted.

"Who's the only one who knows everything?"

"God!"

"So who should you always trust, God or the scientists?"

The children answered with a thundering: "God!"

To which I reply, "Did God write that book?"

"Yes!"

"Where you there?"

"Ummm.... well, no..."

"Then how do you know he wrote or in any way inspired it?"

"Well, my pastor..."

"Was he there?"

"Umm... I don't think..."

"Then shut the fuck up and let me teach my class." :)

*Edited because I forgot to put a link to the story...

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-na-creation11feb11,0,1110748.story?coll=la-home-headlines

:headbang: A side question, do any of you Europeans have these kinds of problems with idiots trying to dumb down your children?

Where Exactly Is This Ken Ham? I'd Like Him To Meet A Friend Of Mine,Mr. Pancor (http://http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh10-e.htm). Mr. Pancor Can Show Him A Magic Trick! It's Called The Dissapearing Act!

I have more of a problem with Wackos who think they're not Wackos wacking me out.

"Can you see your brain?"

"..No"

"Well then it doesn't exist."

Where Exactly Is This Ken Ham? I'd Like Him To Meet A Friend Of Mine,Mr. Pancor (http://http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh10-e.htm). Mr. Pancor Can Show Him A Magic Trick! It's Called The Dissapearing Act!
That link doesn't work for me. :(

That link doesn't work for me. :(
Oh Crap, Hold On, I'll Fix That. Mr. Pancor (http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh10-e.htm), Ladies And Gentlemen

:headbang: A side question, do any of you Europeans have these kinds of problems with idiots trying to dumb down your children?

No, not really. Not here, at least. When even the Catholic Church accepts evolution, then it sort of gets hard for the wackos to gain momentum.

:headbang: A side question, do any of you Europeans have these kinds of problems with idiots trying to dumb down your children?

Not really, here in the UK most religous schools teach both creationism and evolutionism and let the students decide.

To which I reply, "Did God write that book?"

"Yes!"

"Where you there?"

"Ummm.... well, no..."

The people who wrote those books in the Bible believed God inspired them. Whether true or not it is believed to be so and there is nothing wrong with that.

It is aggravating however that people like that try to make kids ignorant of the way the world is. Scientists are sometimes full of crap but not always.

:headbang: A side question, do any of you Europeans have these kinds of problems with idiots trying to dumb down your children?

Yes, but not with an ID debate. Curricula are simply dumbed down to be "fairer for everyone". Highschool books get more coloured pictures. Learning how to use the buttons on your fancy graphic calcalator is deemed more important than knowing what you are/it is actually doing. You get the idea :(

No, I've not come across that problem in Britain. Theists who I have met tend to be quite cynical about the organised part of their religion and more open to less literal interpretations of their religious text.

Having said that, I live opposite a member of the Birmingham University Evangelical Christian Union.

Sometimes I wish we could just exterminate the creationists Auschwitz style. Then I remember I'm supposed to be civilized and get all bummed out.

The people who wrote those books in the Bible believed God inspired them. Whether true or not it is believed to be so and there is nothing wrong with that.

It is aggravating however that people like that try to make kids ignorant of the way the world is. Scientists are sometimes full of crap but not always.
I have no problem with what they believe, either. This here, however, is a blatant attempt to get children and parenst to interfere with the education of other children in public schools. If they don't like what's taught in public schools then they should send their kids to private schools.

As someone who believes in Creation, that just seems wrong to me to get kids to do that. As someone who's going to be a teacher, that would piss me off too. I'm a strong believer that faith (in any religion) is built more on questioning your beliefs so that you don't just blindly follow what anyone says.

I have no problem with what they believe, either. This here, however, is a blatant attempt to get children and parenst to interfere with the education of other children in public schools. If they don't like what's taught in public schools then they should send their kids to private schools.

Not that either. People should learn how things actually are, not just how some people want them to be. If observations contradict belief - teach those observations. If facts contradict doctrine - teach those facts. Do not hide them.

All you get if you don't is people who believe through ignorance - which I do not think is something that makes God happy.

Absolutely ridicoulous.

I'm a Christian, and a firm beleiver, but I honestly think that the Bible is mostly a huge pile of dog crap.

If God put us here, and gave us all of these freedoms, WHY IN THE HELL WOULD HE IMPOSE SO MANY RIDICOULOUS RESTRICTIONS?!! It's basically like saying, "Okay, Timmy, you can do anything you want, but you can't eat ice cream, can't go on the computer, can't watch TV, can't play your video games, can't go on the internet, and can't go out of the house." The Bible is a crapload full of contradictions. A couple of things I think are true, but the rest, I beleive, was put there by humans who simply wanted to impose their viewpoint on others, beleiving that these things were "wrong", and because they thought they were "wrong", God must think they were "wrong" as well. So they added it to the Bible.

But I digress. That's ridicoulous. They're basically brainwashing children to a certain beleif, not giving them the right to choose at all.

And like you said, they weren't there for the writing of the contradictory, flawed book they call the Bible, no more than they say scientists weren't there for evolution.

Just shows the betrayal of intellect in favour of charisma and approval. Like any cheerleading event. Toss up the $.

Well, the $ and your soul. Not like that's worth much, anyway.

this evolution does have scientific basis. after all, it was created after observations in Galapagos. but then there is the problem of we not having a time machine. you cant say something is 100% true if it wasnt observed DIRECTLY yet. but i am not saying natural selection doesnt exist, i am saying evolution can not be proven true until it is directly observable.

You know, given that the preacher quoted in the OP said that evolution is an invalid conclusion to draw since nobody was there to observe it, he should also teach those kids that if they're ever on a jury they should refuse to convict anyone without a witness to the crime. It doesn't matter if the suspect had a basement full of raped and mutilated corpses of children and their blood on every article of his clothing, without a witness they can't believe the prosecution.

oh and by saying the bible is loaded with crap, you just rejected God

Sometimes I wish we could just exterminate the creationists Auschwitz style. Then I remember I'm supposed to be civilized and get all bummed out.

Yeah, uh there is a hell of a lot of creationists, desiring the death of each one of them because of a part of their worldview doesn't deserve death.

but I'm sure you will reply with something like "dude I was just joking, stfu"

that last message was for you OMGWTFBBQSAUCE

this evolution does have scientific basis. after all, it was created after observations in Galapagos. but then there is the problem of we not having a time machine. you cant say something is 100% true if it wasnt observed DIRECTLY yet. but i am not saying natural selection doesnt exist, i am saying evolution can not be proven true until it is directly observable.
There are tests for evolution that don't require people to have observed the whole process. Science doesn't prove anything 100%, but evolution is like 99.99%

this evolution does have scientific basis. after all, it was created after observations in Galapagos. but then there is the problem of we not having a time machine. you cant say something is 100% true if it wasnt observed DIRECTLY yet. but i am not saying natural selection doesnt exist, i am saying evolution can not be proven true until it is directly observable.
Evolution is observable. We can see organisms evolving now. The only theory in it is past evolution because we couldn't see it. In that case we use teh fossil record and analysis of current DNA to find possible lineages.

Yeah, uh there is a hell of a lot of creationists, desiring the death of each one of them because of a part of their worldview doesn't deserve death.

but I'm sure you will reply with something like "dude I was just joking, stfu"
No, I seriously get angry and I'm kinda hot-headed, but I calm myself down and act in a civilized manner when I think it through. It deeply offends me that people are teaching their children lies to perpetuate their religious ideology. I'm not going to mail death threats or burn down embassies over it, but I get mad too.

I'm a Christian, and a firm beleiver, but I honestly think that the Bible is mostly a huge pile of dog crap.
Then are you really a Christian in the first place? If you don't believe in a book that is full of contradictions, why do you just believe one part? It's either you believe in the Bible or you don't. There is no middle road.

Absolutely ridicoulous.

I'm a Christian, and a firm beleiver, but I honestly think that the Bible is mostly a huge pile of dog crap.
*snip*

You're not a Christian.

But I digress, what can I do to stop the tide of creationist/christian/anti-evolutionary thought ROASTING. lets begin shall we?

I think I'll start with something like....oh I know
"Creationists are so dumb, we should pile them into one state and cut off all contact and supplies with them and let their God take care of them."

plus the other thing about this is that how can you you say that the religion end has any more truth than evolution

its sad,

these things always get alot of attention, but theres alot of wacko things evolutionist say, but its mostly passed over

All things consitered the bible was written by man. This kills the arguement given to these children.

is not evolution, it is natural selection. it is like this, 2 larger corns get even a larger corn. that is how corns are bigger now than they were in like 1500.

is not evolution, it is natural selection. it is like this, 2 larger corns get even a larger corn. that is how corns are bigger now than they were in like 1500.
Yeah, but how did they stop being teosinte and become corn?

http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/essential/life/images/show5.maize_teosinte.jpg

Teosinte cob on the left, corn on the right.

I think I'll start with something like....oh I know
"Creationists are so dumb, we should pile them into one state and cut off all contact and supplies with them and let their God take care of them."

Nah. We should just forbid them to lie to their children. Teach those children the controversy as the ID movement so eloquently puts it. And then let them decide for themselves, after they have been given all the facts.

these things always get alot of attention, but theres alot of wacko things evolutionist say, but its mostly passed over

Name 17.

its sad,

these things always get alot of attention, but theres alot of wacko things evolutionist say, but its mostly passed over
Like? :)

No, I seriously get angry and I'm kinda hot-headed, but I calm myself down and act in a civilized manner when I think it through. It deeply offends me that people are teaching their children lies to perpetuate their religious ideology. I'm not going to mail death threats or burn down embassies over it, but I get mad too.

Hm, well to help you cool down a bit more, these children will grow up, and when they are teenagers and smoking/drinking/sexing I'm sure they will begin to ask questions and doubt the religion.
So what really is the problem?
It seems that you are ok with everything else that is debate-worthy (abortion, gay marriage, drugs), but if a parent brings his child up how he wants, and it is against your worldview, you consider it lies and get angry.
Childish, are we?

first, may you explain to me what is teonsite? then i may reply if i have an adequte solution, if i dont have one, i dissmiss the case.

You guys know what the Bible is? It is a collection of documents that were recovered and put together by a few people who would make the first church. The documents that they did not want to use were burned, thus making the bible biased. I am still religious regardless, but not an extremist. I am so glad the religious sector in my country has at least a shred of logic. For instance, this is my worst nightmare:

http://objectiveministries.org/mallmission/

Wouldn't it be horrible if the world became like that, and existence would be nothing but a never-ending war between these people and Islamic extremists?! (Not the way it is now, I mean MUCH more extreme, like in the Terminator movies)

All things consitered the bible was written by man. This kills the arguement given to these children.
exactly and people still argue about not having proof of evalution we have no proof that god or any holy power exists I am still sticking with science

You're not a Christian.

But I digress, what can I do to stop the tide of creationist/christian/anti-evolutionary thought ROASTING. lets begin shall we?

I think I'll start with something like....oh I know
"Creationists are so dumb, we should pile them into one state and cut off all contact and supplies with them and let their God take care of them."I don't think you're in a position to tell anyone whether or not their a christian. There are fair few Christian faiths that reject a lot of the bible and just follow certain parts. Such as the one that only follows what was written in the Gospels.

Need I go on about the countless alterations to bible throughout history. Starting with it's translation from Aramaic, through it's adoption by the Constantine, throught the intervention of the Spanish state in religion, through, the various splits that have occured, thorough the translations by various other kings into their native langauge eg the King James Bible.

I thought the only criteria for being a christian was to accept Christ as your savior and seek forgiveness for your sins (whatever they may be).

*takes a mood swing away from agnosticism to atheism*

The Doors Corporation, believe me, when children grow up, some may not start to cool off at all.

is not evolution, it is natural selection. it is like this, 2 larger corns get even a larger corn. that is how corns are bigger now than they were in like 1500.
Ummm...
Actually, no. That's not how it works. It works through random mutation. Some gene randomly mutates into a gene that makes teh corn bigger. Farmers notice this and breed this corn rather than the smaller corn. In the old days they did this through breeding. Now they just splice genes.

you are right, The Infinite Dunes, but that does not mean you go running around and do every sort of disgusting stuff imaginable

Hm, well to help you cool down a bit more, these children will grow up, and when they are teenagers and smoking/drinking/sexing I'm sure they will begin to ask questions and doubt the religion.
So what really is the problem?
It seems that you are ok with everything else that is debate-worthy (abortion, gay marriage, drugs), but if a parent brings his child up how he wants, and it is against your worldview, you consider it lies and get angry.
Childish, are we?
Sometimes. Yes we are. I'm as guilty of it as anybody else. Thanks for plucking the mote from my eye. Maybe you should check your own for beams? I'm sure you've been childish too. Human nature and all.

those are just children, imagine a similar situation:

"Allright, kids, who brings all the presents for Christmas?"

"Santa Claus!"

"And in whos workshop are they made?"

"Santa Clauses!"

it's a harmless idea.

oh and by saying the bible is loaded with crap, you just rejected God

...cause after all, its impossible that they might believe the bible is poorly translated, or represents human misunderstanding of some kind of divine, or that there could be a God other than what is described in the various interpretations of the bible (some of which are in conflict)...

http://objectiveministries.org/mallmission/Hahaha!

As infuriating all these religious cunts are, they're also great fun :p

first, may you explain to me what is teonsite? then i may reply if i have an adequte solution, if i dont have one, i dissmiss the case.
It's the direct ancestor of modern corn. Ears of teosinte have only two rows of kernels, and the kernels are covered with a hard shell. It's edible, and can even be popped like popcorn.

Hm, well to help you cool down a bit more, these children will grow up, and when they are teenagers and smoking/drinking/sexing I'm sure they will begin to ask questions and doubt the religion.
So what really is the problem?

Problem is most of them won't. Oh, they may *say* they reject the teachings - but the underlying ways of thought will be too deeply ingrained for most.

Absolutely ridicoulous.

I'm a Christian, and a firm beleiver, but I honestly think that the Bible is mostly a huge pile of dog crap.

If God put us here, and gave us all of these freedoms, WHY IN THE HELL WOULD HE IMPOSE SO MANY RIDICOULOUS RESTRICTIONS?!! It's basically like saying, "Okay, Timmy, you can do anything you want, but you can't eat ice cream, can't go on the computer, can't watch TV, can't play your video games, can't go on the internet, and can't go out of the house." The Bible is a crapload full of contradictions. A couple of things I think are true, but the rest, I beleive, was put there by humans who simply wanted to impose their viewpoint on others, beleiving that these things were "wrong", and because they thought they were "wrong", God must think they were "wrong" as well. So they added it to the Bible.


Yes, killing other people or being kind to others are such imposing restrictions on everyone's daily life. Hell, I don't know where I'd be if I didn't steal everything I needed in a day and then lied about it. :rolleyes:

I don't think you're in a position to tell anyone whether or not their a christian. There are fair few Christian faiths that reject a lot of the bible and just follow certain parts. Such as the one that only follows what was written in the Gospels.

I thought the only criteria for being a christian was to accept Christ as your savior and seek forgiveness for your sins (whatever they may be).

*takes a mood swing away from agnosticism to atheism*
I don't think you're in a position to tell anyone whether or not they can make their judgments known to others. This gentleman is saying he rejects the whole Bible. Also, I do not know of any Christian faiths that do what you suggested. In addition, how can you accept someone as your Lord and Savior but not obey that person, is he your Lord? Or not ask him for saving-ness, is he your Savior? I have ever right to judge and make known my judgment. And you have every right to flip me the bird and go your way.

The Emperialist, then what is the problem if some do not cool down? They begin an insurrection to destroy science? They take over the U.S. Government? Well that has already happened.

oh and by saying the bible is loaded with crap, you just rejected God
Wrong. It means the bible was rejected as an authority. Stop begging for sympathy and power trips.

those are just children, imagine a similar situation:

"Allright, kids, who brings all the presents for Christmas?"

"Santa Claus!"

"And in whos workshop are they made?"

"Santa Clauses!"

it's a harmless idea.
No, it's not. I don't care what they believe, but these kids and their parents are being taught how to interfere in the education of other children. If you read the article you'll see.

those are just children, imagine a similar situation:

"Allright, kids, who brings all the presents for Christmas?"

"Santa Claus!"

"And in whos workshop are they made?"

"Santa Clauses!"

it's a harmless idea.
Harmless except for the fact that creationism teaches them that basically all biology is bullshit. Evolution is the grand unifying theory of biology. Plus when kids get older they are let in on the truth about Santa. When creationist kids get older they try to get legislation passed to limit the science that can be taught in school and to promote the creationist lies as fact.

those are just children, imagine a similar situation:

"Allright, kids, who brings all the presents for Christmas?"

"Santa Claus!"

"And in whos workshop are they made?"

"Santa Clauses!"

it's a harmless idea.

But Santa Clause doesn't include the idea of indoctrinating a child to disrupt a teacher's clause. A huge portion of a person's mentality is developed at those ages, and while Santa Clause will eventually be considered to be foolish (and usually rejected before puberty), the preacher will continue to enforce this training as long as he can.

have you ever read anything about mutations? any random mutations end up being nothing to harmfull. it is by breeding how they did it, after all they are, were, and will always be corn

you are right, The Infinite Dunes, but that does not mean you go running around and do every sort of disgusting stuff imaginableRefuting parts of the bible is every sort of disgusting stuff?

I myself have never commited a crime. I try to help others when I can. Last year I was volunteering in Uzbekistan. Plenty of other things, but according to the Bible there are probably at least 10 sins I have commited.

"Who's the only one who's always been there?" Ham asked.

"Chili Cheese Dogs!" the boys and girls shouted.

"Who's the only one who knows everything?"

"Chili Cheese Dogs!"

"So who should you always trust, Chili Cheese Dogs or the scientists?"

The children answered with a thundering: "Chili Cheese Dogs!"

have you ever read anything about mutations? any random mutations end up being nothing to harmfull. it is by breeding how they did it, after all they are, were, and will always be corn
Have you ever read anything about mutations? Most are neutral. Neither harmfull or beneficial. Some are harmfull, some are helpfull. Breeding is artificial selection, but nature does it's own selection too.

exactly, that is why. he rejected the bible as an authority. since to a Christian standpoint God gives motivation to these people, the bible is Gods words. either directly or indirectly. meaning he rejected God as an authority

it's a harmless idea.
I maintain that chili cheese dogs is funnier.

Then are you really a Christian in the first place? If you don't believe in a book that is full of contradictions, why do you just believe one part? It's either you believe in the Bible or you don't. There is no middle road.
You don't make the calls. Give the guy some room.
Some aspects of Christianity are a matter of LIVING as CHRIST did (as far as they know), NOT a matter of biblical authenticity.
And to further punctuate, even the Catholic Church has disavowed LITERAL interpretation of Genesis.
Get off your absolutist tick. ESPECIALLY about this particular topic.

"Who's the only one who's always been there?" Ham asked.

"Chili Cheese Dogs!" the boys and girls shouted.

"Who's the only one who knows everything?"

"Chili Cheese Dogs!"

"So who should you always trust, Chili Cheese Dogs or the scientists?"

The children answered with a thundering: "Chili Cheese Dogs!"


now that is a "desperate Measure" and really doesnt help your case at all,
the santa clause one was a much closer tie to what was really happening

Drunk Commies - "checking myself for beams", thanks for cooling me off.

As for the rest of you, sorry I'm Devil's Advocate here and I can tell you that out of a case of 32 children being brought up in a Christian school, seeing Ken Ham's preaching themselves in 10th grade, and eventually graduating. Only 8-15 of them(us) are still fundie. The other Christian schools have whole classess of seniors walking away not believing a thing. So either Alaska is a cooky world of cookiness or I'm onto somthing here. That something is simply that the human being reaches an age where it begins to think for itself, question for itself, and decide for itself.

exactly, that is why. he rejected the bible as an authority. since to a Christian standpoint God gives motivation to these people, the bible is Gods words. either directly or indirectly. meaning he rejected God as an authorityBelief in Jesus Christ, salvation & the ressurection, is what makes you Christian. Belief in the Bible isn't.

they dont say basic biology is "bullshit", they say the ideology of evolution is flawed and the bible is right because God gave the motivation to write the book.

exactly, that is why. he rejected the bible as an authority. since to a Christian standpoint God gives motivation to these people, the bible is Gods words. either directly or indirectly. meaning he rejected God as an authority

Unless one assumes the Bible is not an accurate representation of the Word of God. Which, since it was compiled by humans with their own agendas, is a very defensible position.

exactly, that is why. he rejected the bible as an authority. since to a Christian standpoint God gives motivation to these people, the bible is Gods words. either directly or indirectly. meaning he rejected God as an authority
So will god grant me victory in battle if I promise to kill my daughter like Jephtha did?
Judges 11:34-30

now that is a "desperate Measure" and really doesnt help your case at all,
the santa clause one was a much closer tie to what was really happening
Obviously you don't take your hot dogs seriously.

have you ever read anything about mutations? any random mutations end up being nothing to harmfull. it is by breeding how they did it, after all they are, were, and will always be corn
That's true. Most mutations are harmful and therefore get bred out. When a mutation is helpful it gets passed on. In nature that happens because the mutation either helped with longevity thus giving the orgnaism more time to breed or maybe it increased the organisms breeding capacity...

In farming it gets passed on because it lends a favorable trait to whatever teh produce is and the farmer selectively breeds for that trait. The point is that it's not because two big pieces of corn have a bigger piece of corn as a baby.

its sad,

these things always get alot of attention, but theres alot of wacko things evolutionist say, but its mostly passed over
Well, as long as you're dealing with isms, you're gonna have to expect that the generalities are gonna bring home some distaste.

Drunk Commies - "checking myself for beams", thanks for cooling me off.

As for the rest of you, sorry I'm Devil's Advocate here and I can tell you that out of a case of 32 children being brought up in a Christian school, seeing Ken Ham's preaching themselves in 10th grade, and eventually graduating. Only 8-15 of them(us) are still fundie. The other Christian schools have whole classess of seniors walking away not believing a thing. So either Alaska is a cooky world of cookiness or I'm onto somthing here. That something is simply that the human being reaches an age where it begins to think for itself, question for itself, and decide for itself.
Hey, I wasn't upset or anything at your post. I hope you weren't upset at mine.

who said Christians dont disagree even among themselves? you see, the bible is hard stuff and is open to all sorts of interpretation.

they dont say basic biology is "bullshit", they say the ideology of evolution is flawed and the bible is right because God gave the motivation to write the book.
They go even farther than saying biology is bullshit. They say the entire scientific method is bullshit.

Belief in Jesus Christ, salvation & the ressurection, is what makes you Christian. Belief in the Bible isn't.

Sorry wrong, that is what a lot of the progressives say. But they're rock, how can you believe that Jesus Christ lived, believe in an idea of salvation and ressurection, and not believe the STORY OF IT ALL. Without the Bible there is no story of Jesus Christ, sacrifice, unconditional love, Israel taking Jericho, Adam and Eve. So unless you believe the story, how can you believe in this figurehead that the story is all about?

Belief in Jesus Christ, salvation & the ressurection, is what makes you Christian. Belief in the Bible isn't.
Good post. Better than i did. *bows*

I don't think you're in a position to tell anyone whether or not they can make their judgments known to others. This gentleman is saying he rejects the whole Bible. Also, I do not know of any Christian faiths that do what you suggested. In addition, how can you accept someone as your Lord and Savior but not obey that person, is he your Lord? Or not ask him for saving-ness, is he your Savior? I have ever right to judge and make known my judgment. And you have every right to flip me the bird and go your way.So the bible is right? But you have the right to judge? *tries to remember where he read the phrase "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Besides, he used the conditional term 'mostly'.

How can you be sure that the Bible is the word of God? All that you know is that failible human after failible human have told each other that this is the word of God.

I am I right in thinking that God is communicates with christians thorugh prayer? So one can follow God's word by communicating with him through prayer. And then ask forgiveness for any transgressions.

I do not think you have a leg to stand on here.

by the way, how do you know if there was any random mutations and it wasnt the cause of selective breeding, if you give me a reliable source, i believe you, if it comes from your own brain, then i will ignore any comment that comes from this

Drunk Commies - "checking myself for beams", thanks for cooling me off.

As for the rest of you, sorry I'm Devil's Advocate here and I can tell you that out of a case of 32 children being brought up in a Christian school, seeing Ken Ham's preaching themselves in 10th grade, and eventually graduating. Only 8-15 of them(us) are still fundie. The other Christian schools have whole classess of seniors walking away not believing a thing. So either Alaska is a cooky world of cookiness or I'm onto somthing here. That something is simply that the human being reaches an age where it begins to think for itself, question for itself, and decide for itself.
It's not their beliefs that are important here. Its that this guy is teaching these children and adults o inetrefer with the eductaion of others in public schools.

Hey, I wasn't upset or anything at your post. I hope you weren't upset at mine.
no I wasn't! I was just saying that you helped push me back from "fists raised for pummeling" to "friendly devil's advocate".

alright here it goes, my views
i believe in God, i believe in Jesus
i also believe in adaption, it is impossible not to beleive in this, its everywhere, from humans to cells

i believe God created the world, but i dont worry myself on how, i dont really care if there was a garden of eden (it is very possible this was added to make the concept of heaven a basic understanding) i dont care if there was just adam and eve, it could of been adam, Eve, Mary, Steve, John, Mindy. it doesnt matter how it all started.

i look at evolution, but i dont believe we evolved from apes and such,(refer back to the adaption) i beleive we as humans have adapted to our enviroments.

Well, as long as you're dealing with isms, you're gonna have to expect that the generalities are gonna bring home some distaste.

Which is of course the central problem...

These kids probably do not know what the theory of evolution - the leading scientific theory explaining the diversity of life on earth - actually *is*. They were not taught evolution, but evolutionism : that nifty theory that tells us humans decended from monkeys, cats can give birth to dogs and if you drop a pig from a cliff often enough it will grow wings.

I have no problem with what they believe, either. This here, however, is a blatant attempt to get children and parenst to interfere with the education of other children in public schools. If they don't like what's taught in public schools then they should send their kids to private schools.

Couldnt have said it better myself :cool:

by the way, how do you know if there was any random mutations and it wasnt the cause of selective breeding, if you give me a reliable source, i believe you, if it comes from your own brain, then i will ignore any comment that comes from this
Sorry, i left my copy of The Origin Of Species in the car. Suffice it to say that in my biology classes, marine biology classes and anthropology classes in college that's what all the books and teachers said. I would imagine that if you did a google search on the topic you would find that that's what the general concensus is. :)

Drunk commies deleted, the answer to that is no, that is the historical part of the bible by the way, not law.

Sorry wrong, that is what a lot of the progressives say.I don't know why, but it never fails to ammuse me when someone accuses a bunch of religious folks of being progressive.
But they're rock, how can you believe that Jesus Christ lived, believe in an idea of salvation and ressurection, and not believe the STORY OF IT ALL.I've always wondered about that myself. I have no idea how some people can convince themselves of such tall-tales, though. You'll have to ask a believer.

Without the Bible there is no story of Jesus Christ, sacrifice, unconditional love, Israel taking Jericho, Adam and Eve. So unless you believe the story, how can you believe in this figurehead that the story is all about?This is a guess, as I do not believe any of it, but..

I fail to see why litteral belief in the Bible is necessary for being religious. As far as I recall, the only important bits are believing in Jesus, the ressurection & salvation. If people discard the rest as myths & parables, what's wrong with that?

People without names, you see, Christians believe God read your heart, and i dont think you are making a good intention out of that.

Sorry wrong, that is what a lot of the progressives say. But they're rock, how can you believe that Jesus Christ lived, believe in an idea of salvation and ressurection, and not believe the STORY OF IT ALL. Without the Bible there is no story of Jesus Christ, sacrifice, unconditional love, Israel taking Jericho, Adam and Eve. So unless you believe the story, how can you believe in this figurehead that the story is all about?
So you're in disagreement with the Catholics?
Here's something you may need to look over to qualify your post.

http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html

and of course ...

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

by the way, how do you know if there was any random mutations and it wasnt the cause of selective breeding, if you give me a reliable source, i believe you, if it comes from your own brain, then i will ignore any comment that comes from this
Hate to break it to you. Selective breeding relies on random mutations. If I'm breeding pigs, and I want leaner pork I've got to wait until one or more of the piglets is born with a mutation that keeps them from storing fat or makes their metabolism burn fat off quicker. I can't just decide the pigs should be leaner and make it happen by magic.

I don't get what right anyone has to tell children not to do their studies in school. What if I got a large number of children together to tell their math teacher, "Math is boring!" and gave them all calculators instead of math books (follow along: bibles instead of science books). Told these children, there - thats all you need. 12 years of math in one pocket sized machine. Ignore your math teachers.

Wait...

Can I do this? What would be the legal ramifications?

All things consitered the bible was written by man. This kills the arguement given to these children.
Short & sweet. *bows*

I have no problem with what they believe, either. This here, however, is a blatant attempt to get children and parenst to interfere with the education of other children in public schools. If they don't like what's taught in public schools then they should send their kids to private schools.

i think that is a great idea, i support private schools as an option, infact i also believe that if you send your children to a private school, you should no longer have some of your tax money go to public schools, eventually, if enough people are sending their kids to private schools vs. public schools the public schools will get a hint that not so much funding or students are coming, maybe they need to offer the same things private schools offer in order to stay in "business"

It's not their beliefs that are important here. Its that this guy is teaching these children and adults o inetrefer with the eductaion of others in public schools.
survival of the fittest, PsychoticDan, if the kids that education is "interfered" on fail to overcome and move on, then how are they going to overcome and move on later in life?

If the kids that education is "interfered" on and they choose the beliefs that interfered, then oh well, what have we lost?

I have to go fix my car, that science has helped to create. Yes. evolution helped to creat my car.

the answer to thatThe Similized world, is faith. Just believe.There is no other way to say it except people who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John and people mentioned there are witness. And you see, one of the writer is a doctor. if you think doctors arent crazy, then you can believe. And people back then werent stupid either.

Drunk commies deleted, the answer to that is no, that is the historical part of the bible by the way, not law.
Well can I at least still conquer neighboring towns, kill off all the men and women and keep the virgin girls as concubines?

by the way, how do you know if there was any random mutations and it wasnt the cause of selective breeding, if you give me a reliable source, i believe you, if it comes from your own brain, then i will ignore any comment that comes from this

Just like we can ignore any interpretation or belief, about biology or the bible or anything else, that comes from your brain...

You want people to discount beliefs that come from the brain (the only real engine of analysis and reason available to us)...no wonder you say things like "Its not evolution, its natural selection", and "any mutation is harmful"...

People without names, you see, Christians believe God read your heart, and i dont think you are making a good intention out of that.
im a little confused on what you mean?

do survival of the fittest have any basis at all? then why are we trying to help ourselves in admist crisis, even to your worst hated people(i dont think you have witnessed hating people helping each other) or carnivorous animals raising or being friends with herbivorous animals?

survival of the fittest, PsychoticDan, if the kids that education is "interfered" on fail to overcome and move on, then how are they going to overcome and move on later in life?

If the kids that education is "interfered" on and they choose the beliefs that interfered, then oh well, what have we lost?

I have to go fix my car, that science has helped to create. Yes. evolution helped to creat my car.
Sure. Then there's rights. People pay taxes to support public education. They have a right to expect that their children's education isn't going to be interefered with by some religious wacko. The best idea is to just kick teh kid out who wants to interfere, I mean thats what they'd do to someone who interfered for nonreligious reasons, then give the kid a failing grade if he never decides to sit down and shut up.

the answer to thatThe Similized world, is faith. Just believe.There is no other way to say it except people who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John and people mentioned there are witness. And you see, one of the writer is a doctor. if you think doctors arent crazy, then you can believe. And people back then werent stupid either.

This is one of most specious arguments I've ever seen...

The Emperialist, do you see any flaw whatsoever in what you've said here?

Christians are wrong. It's true. You might not believe it, but any religion that defends itself as everlasting love and acceptance, and then includes people carrying signs that say "God Hates Fags" is hypocritical, and just plain stupid. Don't get me wrong, I have friends who are Christians, but as a rule they are also wrong.

i am not asking if you are stupid or dont have any reason at all, i just want to figure out if what you say has any scientific basis

This is one of most specious arguments I've ever seen...

The Emperialist, do you see any flaw whatsoever in what you've said here?
9 out of 10 biblical doctors agree with Emperialist.

do survival of the fittest have any basis at all? then why are we trying to help ourselves in admist crisis, even to your worst hated people(i dont think you have witnessed hating people helping each other) or carnivorous animals raising or being friends with herbivorous animals?
Um, what?

yes, i see the flaw, i apologize. you see any person is bound for error sometimes.

The kids are denying the scientific method and the most important unifying theory of biology. But ultimately of course no one who would accept the horrible explainations of the bible will be involved in science anyways. True the creationists try to obstruct science in America; but they are failing and will not win this battle. The rest of the scientific world (Europe and Asia for example) realize the reality of evolution so even if the creationists somehow undermined biology in America, science would continue to advance elsewhere in the world.

The people who say that evolution isn't proven because we haven't seen it are essentially denying the validity of fields as diverse as history and archaeology, and are displaying that they have no idea what the term "theory" means in a scientific context. It is not something that can be elevated to the level of "fact" when enough evidence arrives; a theory is well accepted explaination that arises from extensive research that makes sense of and brings unity to a wide variety of diverse facts. In other words, a scientific theory is a system that explains the relationship between and the reasons for a wide variety of facts. Other scientific theories that no one ever argues about are: the theory of gravity, germ theory, and atomic theory.

Natural selection is merely the mechanism of evolution and adaptation is an effect of evolution; the three are inseperable. To say that you believe in evolution but not that people evolved from apes is essentially saying that I beleive most facts, but I'm going to ignore that group of them. But these denial is understandable since without the garden of Eden (the existence of which can be ruled out with confidence thanks to knowledge of evolution and archaeology) the entire Christian faith falls apart. If there is no Garden of Eden, there is no original sin. If there is no original sin, there is no reason for God to send down his son/incarnate himself to redeem us; leaving Jesus (or Yeshua as was his true name) all too human. Of course one could still take the path that evolution occured, the bible was written by man, and Jesus was human; but that God approximating the Christian conception of God exists and that the Bible is still a useful moral codex. I question whether those people can still be considered Christians; but ultimately I'll classify anyone who believes themself to be a Christian as a christian.

Drunk commies deleted, the answer to that is no, that is the historical part of the bible by the way, not law.

So, if in the "history" of the bible, god offers victory to a guy in exchange for the human sacrifice of his daughter, that doesn't say something about the bible (and the kind of god it has)?

lol, Desperate Measures

do survival of the fittest have any basis at all? then why are we trying to help ourselves in admist crisis, even to your worst hated people(i dont think you have witnessed hating people helping each other) or carnivorous animals raising or being friends with herbivorous animals?

Pick up a *basic* book on biology. Stuff like this should have been taught to you when you were 12 or so...

So, if in the "history" of the bible, god offers victory to a guy in exchange for the human sacrifice of his daughter, that doesn't say something about the bible (and the kind of god it has)?
My point exactly. If the bible is the divine word of god, then god approves of human sacrifice, genocide, incest, slavery, and other assorted crimes against humanity. Those things are included in the bible and are not treated as abominations, like wearing a cotton/poly blend is.

do survival of the fittest have any basis at all? then why are we trying to help ourselves in admist crisis, even to your worst hated people(i dont think you have witnessed hating people helping each other) or carnivorous animals raising or being friends with herbivorous animals?

yes survival of the fittest plays a huge part in adaption, and for those that believe in evolution, also in evolution

culture plays a huge part in how we act in crisis, and who is part of it.
some cultures will show that hating people, you dont do anything to help them, in some cases you should kill them

others show that just because you hate someone doesnt mean they should die, a human life is a very valuable thing

in some very few cases, one enemy is meant to be adopted as ones best friend

The kids are denying the scientific method and the most important unifying theory of biology. But ultimately of course no one who would accept the horrible explainations of the bible will be involved in science anyways. True the creationists try to obstruct science in America; but they are failing and will not win this battle.

Wrong - they will. They are not fighting the battle in the scientific arena - where they would indeed get creamed - they are fighting it in the hearts and minds of people who were raised in a society based on beliefs similar to their own.

do survival of the fittest have any basis at all? then why are we trying to help ourselves in admist crisis, even to your worst hated people(i dont think you have witnessed hating people helping each other) or carnivorous animals raising or being friends with herbivorous animals?

The modern syntheseis of evolution dosent even use the term "survivel of the fittest" anymore. the "reproduction of the most adept" is more accurate

Wrong - they will. They are not fighting the battle in the scientific arena - where they would indeed get creamed - they are fighting it in the hearts and minds of people who were raised in a society based on beliefs similar to their own.
So in essence loud mouthed sheep leading like minded sheep in to battle..... in the good old US of A... frightening...

Which is of course the central problem...

These kids probably do not know what the theory of evolution - the leading scientific theory explaining the diversity of life on earth - actually *is*. They were not taught evolution, but evolutionism : that nifty theory that tells us humans decended from monkeys, cats can give birth to dogs and if you drop a pig from a cliff often enough it will grow wings.

What are you talking about? There is no one who believe that cats can give birth to dogs, or that pigs can grow wings. Human's do share common ancestors with monkeys; there is countless evidence to support this and none to contradict it. The only reason anyone denies it is because they are afraid it makes their species less important and unique.

exactly, that is why. he rejected the bible as an authority. since to a Christian standpoint God gives motivation to these people, the bible is Gods words. either directly or indirectly. meaning he rejected God as an authority
You must have an interesting idea of the difference between law of the old covenant and of the new covenant then. :rolleyes:

have you ever read anything about mutations? any random mutations end up being nothing to harmfull. it is by breeding how they did it, after all they are, were, and will always be corn

genetic recombination, not random mutation is the primary scourse of genetic diversity.
Genetic recombination occours in every sexually reproducing specis when gametes (haploid cells produced by the process of meiosis) come together randomly.

the answer to thatThe Similized world, is faith. Just believe.There is no other way to say it except people who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John and people mentioned there are witness. And you see, one of the writer is a doctor. if you think doctors arent crazy, then you can believe. And people back then werent stupid either.I think the point was that these guys all contradict eachother on pretty much everything.

I'm sure everyone can agree that there are some overall messages to be found in the Bible, and (ignoring I don't understand the concept of "faith") I see no reason why people shouldn't be able to have faith, even if they believe much of the scripture to be half-truths or parables.

There's no point in trying to explain to me how people manage to become religious. I think it's impossible for an atheist to understand - at least, I'm quite sure it's impossible for me. That's why I didn't actually ask.

But back on topic: I think people should be allowed to raise their children as they wish, as long as they're not harming them. And since we all are legally bound to recieve a certain level of education, I don't think trying to impose willful ignorance on children is "causing harm".
I just hope that park cleaning will still be a job in 70 years time... And that there'll be a lot of parks.

What are you talking about? There is no one who believe that cats can give birth to dogs, or that pigs can grow wings.

Exactly. But creationists claim that *that* is what evolutionists say.

And you know what ? People believe them. They believe them over the biologist who says "nono- we are not claiming that at all".

Sad, but true.

that is because Jephthah made a bow, and breaking a bow meant sin. and you see, back then Jesus Christ wasnt there yet, so people werent saved from their sin. and in Romans, it says the wage of sin is death. that is why earlier in times they sacrificed lambs before the coming of Christ. but he just broke a promise to God, and he paid the consequence. besides she didnt die, she never married.

Christians arent afraid of not being unique, because you see, they already believe we are unique. they just go for what they believe

What are you talking about? There is no one who believe that cats can give birth to dogs, or that pigs can grow wings. Human's do share common ancestors with monkeys; there is countless evidence to support this and none to contradict it. The only reason anyone denies it is because they are afraid it makes their species less important and unique.
That's the point. When the preachers decide to tell the kids why creationism is right they lie about what evolutionary theory actually is. They draw analogies like dropping pigs until they grow wings, and even use poor analogies to attack abiogenesis which isn't even part of evolutionary theory. Ever hear the Tornado in a junkyard creating a 747 analogy?

Basically the popularity of creationism is based on lies from religious leaders and intellectual laziness from those who listen to them.

they dont say basic biology is "bullshit", they say the ideology of evolution is flawed and the bible is right because God gave the motivation to write the book.
God obviously gave motivation for mutability of species.
Perhaps you'd care to share your personal lineage.

do survival of the fittest have any basis at all? then why are we trying to help ourselves in admist crisis, even to your worst hated people(i dont think you have witnessed hating people helping each other) or carnivorous animals raising or being friends with herbivorous animals?

Survival of the fittest isn't even part of the theory of evolution and wasn't even said by Darwin. It was said by the social theorist Herbert Spencer, largely to justify capitalism and the suffering of the non-rich. People helping each other naturally stems from evolution since we are social beings.

Rufionia, thanks for that reply. now it makes sense

So will god grant me victory in battle if I promise to kill my daughter like Jephtha did?
Judges 11:34-30
WooT! Example #1: DCD!!!
BTW, how come JesusSaves isn't around?

So, if in the "history" of the bible, god offers victory to a guy in exchange for the human sacrifice of his daughter, that doesn't say something about the bible (and the kind of god it has)?

You're confusing the bible with Greek mythology.

well, preachers arent scientists, after all. but there are those who are

who said Christians dont disagree even among themselves? you see, the bible is hard stuff and is open to all sorts of interpretation.
Seconded. *bows*
Best post from you yet, as far as i'm concerned.

That's the point. When the preachers decide to tell the kids why creationism is right they lie about what evolutionary theory actually is. They draw analogies like dropping pigs until they grow wings, and even use poor analogies to attack abiogenesis which isn't even part of evolutionary theory. Ever hear the Tornado in a junkyard creating a 747 analogy?

Basically the popularity of creationism is based on lies from religious leaders and intellectual laziness from those who listen to them.
yes

WooT! Example #1: DCD!!!
BTW, how come JesusSaves isn't around?
He's on vacation. Took a trip to New Guinea in order to share the good news with the Yali tribe. I hope they don't eat him, but at least he's avoided the blizard that's starting over here.

So is all this aggro caused in the Bible belt in the USA?

You're confusing the bible with Greek mythology.
uhm ...


So will god grant me victory in battle if I promise to kill my daughter like Jephtha did?
Judges 11:34-30

Christians say Jesus is in heaven, you see.

He's on vacation. Took a trip to New Guinea in order to share the good news with the Yali tribe. I hope they don't eat him, but at least he's avoided the blizzard that's starting over here.
*FLORT*
Hahaha!
Seems like him to miss out on some kind of god-induced inconvenience or catastrophe ... ;)

So is all this aggro caused in the Bible belt in the USA?
I'm ashamed to say that the OP's quote was from a church in my home state of New Jersey.

I always thought we were a shining example of what the rest of the world could aspire to one day become, but now I realize we've got creationists in our midst. We're not all that much better than everyone else. Oh well, we're still a little better than everyone else.

uhm ...

Damn, I haven't read the bible in three years. But there is a Greek myth where the same thing happens.

Christians say Jesus is in heaven, you see.
You mean he's not traipsing the world with nary a peep, as is the case after birth for about, say, 30 years or so? :rolleyes:

Rufionia, thanks for that reply. now it makes sense
you're welcome

Damn, I haven't read the bible in three years. But there is a Greek myth where the same thing happens.
IIRC there's a greek myth or two involving virgin births and children of the gods too.

I might sound a bit like I'm from the movie Equilibrium (Paradise at last!:rolleyes:) but wht good is religion? It causes war, paranoia, George Bush and endless bad things! Atheism is a sensible solution. And I'd rather b unhappy in the knowledge that evolution actually happened, than deluded in a happy fantasy of creationism. We're either evolved, or some sort of semi-concious dream of something.

Damn, I haven't read the bible in three years. But there is a Greek myth where the same thing happens.
Well, two things ...
One, i don't expect *ANYONE* to remember everything in it. I don't. I read KJV and parts of NIV in '96 (compare/contrast), and i don't remember much at all of it. Headache-inducing at times.
Two, certain parts of it are lifted from Greek stories, so that's understandable. Different names & angles, et cetera.

bible doesnt say Jesus came out of nowhere, you see, illiterally speakeng, "God delivered the seed"

you might as well research more about Bush, you see, his problem is not being evil, he doesnt listen.

I'm ashamed to say that the OP's quote was from a church in my home state of New Jersey.

I always thought we were a shining example of what the rest of the world could aspire to one day become, but now I realize we've got creationists in our midst. We're not all that much better than everyone else. Oh well, we're still a little better than everyone else.

thats a joke, right?

thinking the world should be like New Jersey?

LMAO

it was a good laugh anyways

And I'd rather b unhappy in the knowledge that evolution actually happened, [...]Unhappy?
Personally I'd be quite a bit more unhappy thinking someone made me out of mud, for the purpose of either torturing me for infinity, or having me wortship the something for eternity.

No thank you. Nice animal ancestry for me please!

I am I right in thinking that God is communicates with christians thorugh prayer? So one can follow God's word by communicating with him through prayer. And then ask forgiveness for any transgressions.


Why is this such a hard concept for people who call themselves Christians to grasp?
EXCELLENT POST. *bows*

you might be surprised i know much about the bible, and never "forget" about it. You see, i quoted forget because in time, people do forget some stuff

No thank you. Nice animal ancestry for me please!

sounds a little like the old indian legends

thats a joke, right?

thinking the world should be like New Jersey?

LMAO

it was a good laugh anyways
New Jersey is damn close to paradise on earth. I don't know why others like to put us down, but we've got a great balance between urban and rural, a nice sea shore, a huge tract of protected woodlands in the pine barrens, plenty of historical sites, very little unemployment, and we've got access to major cities that host world class concerts and other entertainment. The world could do alot worse than become like New Jersey.

if it comes from your own brain, then i will ignore any comment that comes from this
You have quite a sophomoric attitude here for someone who doesn't respond in kind.
You need to post less of your opinion and more reputable source.

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden tree

you might be surprised i know much about the bible, and never "forget" about it. You see, i quoted forget because in time, people do forget some stuff
I'm going to run with idea that you are including me in this post, to wit i implore that you explain Jesus cursing the fig tree here.
Explain it.
And, keep in mind here ...

if it comes from your own brain, then i will ignore any comment that comes from this
Responding in kind.

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden tree

I thought it was cause they discovered sex???

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden treeI heartily doubt that the lithosphere cracked and started shifting because two people ate a forbidden fruit...

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden tree

maybe i just havent been paying much attention or confusing some of your post with posts of others, but...
are you christian, atheist, jewish etc...?

just wondering

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden tree
I disagree. God created man in order to perfect himself. Jesus said "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

That means that if you teach someone not to beat his wife, you've taught god to refrain from domestic violence. If you help someone overcome drug addiction, you've gotten god to stop using drugs. If you teach a kid the truth of evolution, you've taught god and elevated him from ignorance.

God was a real wreck before we got here.

Straughn, apologies if i made you feel that i am reinforcing rules and opinions. YOu see, me, like you believe in respecting other peoples opinion

Where they (scientist) there at the time of evolution... um no don't think so. So whats to say God didn't create the world...um nothing. If you knew everything about the world and how it was created then you would be God... obviously your not...

have a blessed day in the Lord...

I thought it was cause they discovered sex???

thats the Popes version;)

(just kidding catholics)

Laerod, i never said you have to believe in anything i say

I disagree. God created man in order to perfect himself. Jesus said "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

That means that if you teach someone not to beat his wife, you've taught god to refrain from domestic violence. If you help someone overcome drug addiction, you've gotten god to stop using drugs. If you teach a kid the truth of evolution, you've taught god and elevated him from ignorance.

God was a real wreck before we got here.


Applauds **** pmsl.... Your real name House?

Where they (scientist) there at the time of evolution... um no don't think so. So whats to say God didn't create the world...um nothing. If you knew everything about the world and how it was created then you would be God... obviously your not...

have a blessed day in the Lord...
Were the police there when John Wayne Gacy murdered and raped a bunch of young men and boys? So then obviously he was innocent.

Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the world. It only deals with the diversity of life.

People without names, lol

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden treeSo.. Who'll call GNI?

God created a couple of Mud-People drones. Not knowing better, the Mud-People did as they were instructed, by the walking, talking snake. They had no reason, after all, to suspect that they shouldn't.

And Ka-Zappo! Tossed out of the heavens, and the punishment passed on to all descendents. Nice bloke that God.

Seeing as I had no choice about knowing good from evil, I recognise that God is an evil, childish git, and I won't offer it any praise. Ever. And I never asked that twisted [cencored] to kill anyone, sons included, in my name.

So my punishment for caving to that bastard, is eternal torture.

That's pretty much what I'd believe, if I believed. I don't though. And I wouldn't want to be made from mud. That's pathetic.

And people back then werent stupid either.
It's not about being STUPID, it's about being IGNORANT and UNINFORMED.
INVARIABLY myths fill the blanks in scenarios where ignorance and lack of informed populace abounds. Invariably.

Applauds **** pmsl.... Your real name House?
pmsl? House?

That's just a little revalation I had while drinking and suffering from severe insomnia one night. Jesus didn't come here to save mankind (except maybe to save us from an angry god of the old testament) he came to save god from himself. He came to tell us that we need to set a positive example for god. See, god's been alone for a long time (eternity). Consequently he's developed some bad habits. We should pity him and help him by helping each other.

Then I sobered up, got some sleep and remembered I'm an atheist.

Drunk commies deleted, i disagree(i am not saying you have to support my opinion), you see, i know a lot of christians myself, and they believe in no such things

yes, i see the flaw, i apologize. you see any person is bound for error sometimes.
Boy howdy. Now the prayer comes in them not making a lifestyle out of it.

Drunk commies deleted, i disagree(i am not saying you have to support my opinion), you see, i know a lot of christians myself, and they believe in no such things
So what. It's not my job to decide what they should believe any more than it's their job to decide what I believe.

but you do have one point, you are an atheist. feeling special, huh?

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden tree
he created girls to touch my winky! :p

That makes me feel all tingly! :)

Not really, here in the UK most religous schools teach both creationism and evolutionism and let the students decide.

Really? I've never heard of even a strict religous school teaching creationism in the UK in recent years.

That guy just makes me sick. He's just using the children, not teaching them.

but you do have one point, you are an atheist. feeling special, huh?
Not really.

God created woman because the man(Adam) was alone. and you dont want a world living by yourself.

That guy just makes me sick. He's just using the children, not teaching them.Nah, the guy isn't a Catholic. He isn't "using" the children ;)

God created humans for a special relationship,
And then the man and woman do a special kind of hug and nine months later the stork comes with a baby! ;)

The kids are denying the scientific method and the most important unifying theory of biology. But ultimately of course no one who would accept the horrible explainations of the bible will be involved in science anyways. True the creationists try to obstruct science in America; but they are failing and will not win this battle. The rest of the scientific world (Europe and Asia for example) realize the reality of evolution so even if the creationists somehow undermined biology in America, science would continue to advance elsewhere in the world.

The people who say that evolution isn't proven because we haven't seen it are essentially denying the validity of fields as diverse as history and archaeology, and are displaying that they have no idea what the term "theory" means in a scientific context. It is not something that can be elevated to the level of "fact" when enough evidence arrives; a theory is well accepted explaination that arises from extensive research that makes sense of and brings unity to a wide variety of diverse facts. In other words, a scientific theory is a system that explains the relationship between and the reasons for a wide variety of facts. Other scientific theories that no one ever argues about are: the theory of gravity, germ theory, and atomic theory.

Natural selection is merely the mechanism of evolution and adaptation is an effect of evolution; the three are inseperable. To say that you believe in evolution but not that people evolved from apes is essentially saying that I beleive most facts, but I'm going to ignore that group of them. But these denial is understandable since without the garden of Eden (the existence of which can be ruled out with confidence thanks to knowledge of evolution and archaeology) the entire Christian faith falls apart. If there is no Garden of Eden, there is no original sin. If there is no original sin, there is no reason for God to send down his son/incarnate himself to redeem us; leaving Jesus (or Yeshua as was his true name) all too human. Of course one could still take the path that evolution occured, the bible was written by man, and Jesus was human; but that God approximating the Christian conception of God exists and that the Bible is still a useful moral codex. I question whether those people can still be considered Christians; but ultimately I'll classify anyone who believes themself to be a Christian as a christian.
Well thought out. *bows*

you see, God doesnt want just 2 person living and serving, what better way to reproduce is there?

Pick up a *basic* book on biology. Stuff like this should have been taught to you when you were 12 or so...
Not for some. For some, those were the snake-handlin' days. *nods*

you see, God doesnt want just 2 person living and serving, what better way to reproduce is there?
Budding.

Really? I've never heard of even a strict religous school teaching creationism in the UK in recent years.

i remember going to school in England, we had RE (religious education) we studied muslims, christians, jewish.

i also remember the school assemblies, starting and ending in prayer

i see no problem in that, it didnt force any beliefs on me, i didnt convert from a muslim, to a christian, to a jew. i stayed the same, infact it gave me quite a better idea on what was really happening in the world.

btw, it shouldnt be a problem for a teacher to pray in school, etc.. in the USA

constitution doesnt even say seperation of church and state, thats a term later used in a speech. all the constitution basicly says is the USA government will not adopt or endorse a religion.

it is true, though, a bible is not a scientific journal. really, it is up to people to decide if the bible is pure fact or mumbo jumbo

you see, God doesnt want just 2 person living and serving, what better way to reproduce is there?
Whatever happened to the mud?

Christians arent afraid of not being unique, because you see, they already believe we are unique. they just go for what they believe
It follows then that Jesus is referred to as "the shepard" ... :rolleyes:

And here I thought it was because it took sheep-like blind faith to follow the character.

its not mud, it is dust(or at least that is what the bible says about it)

i remember going to school in England, we had RE (religious education) we studied muslims, christians, jewish.

i also remember the school assemblies, starting and ending in prayer

i see no problem in that, it didnt force any beliefs on me, i didnt convert from a muslim, to a christian, to a jew. i stayed the same, infact it gave me quite a better idea on what was really happening in the world.

btw, it shouldnt be a problem for a teacher to pray in school, etc.. in the USA

constitution doesnt even say seperation of church and state, thats a term later used in a speech. all the constitution basicly says is the USA government will not adopt or endorse a religion.
The teacher is payed with tax dollars and the school was built and maintained with tax dollars. It's a government facility. By having the teacher, a government employee, lead the kids in prayer the government is establishing that religious belief as the official government religion. Thus it violates the establishment clause.

Jesus is peoples "shepherd" because He is the only way to heaven

Drunk commies deleted, "budding", that was pretty funny

Budding.
I don't want to "bud." :mad:

I want to stick my hooha in a womans faticus. :mad:

Drunk commies deleted, "budding", that was pretty funny
Hey, it works for the Chinese.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/thumb/d/d6/Chang-eng-bunker-PD.gif/250px-Chang-eng-bunker-PD.gif

you might as well research more about Bush, you see, his problem is not being evil, he doesnt listen.
Willfull ignorance and neglect results in evil for others. His own stubbornness is tantamount to evil in said regard.
And i'd invite you again, by your own standard mentioned earlier, to back this up and not just give an inflection of your mentality.
In kind.

"the constitution basicly says is the USA government will not adopt or endorse a religion." that is a pretty funny statement, i thought there was some religion things amidst all those political stuff

"the constitution basicly says is the USA government will not adopt or endorse a religion." that is a pretty funny statement, i thought there was some religion things amidst all those political stuff
God is not mentioned anywhere in the US constitution.

its not mud, it is dust(or at least that is what the bible says about it)Actually it's anything from dust, to dirt to mud, depending on your particular editions of the myth(s).Jesus is peoples "shepherd" because He is the only way to heavenAnd here I thought it was because it took sheep-like blind faith to follow the character.

I don't want to "bud." :mad:

I want to stick my hooha in a womans faticus. :mad:
The cool thing about so many religious threads is that they tend to turn past the R - rating into other territory. Mmmm. :D

i remember going to school in England, we had RE (religious education) we studied muslims, christians, jewish.

i also remember the school assemblies, starting and ending in prayer

i see no problem in that, it didnt force any beliefs on me, i didnt convert from a muslim, to a christian, to a jew. i stayed the same, infact it gave me quite a better idea on what was really happening in the world.

btw, it shouldnt be a problem for a teacher to pray in school, etc.. in the USA

constitution doesnt even say seperation of church and state, thats a term later used in a speech. all the constitution basicly says is the USA government will not adopt or endorse a religion.

Yeah, I got RE when I was at school as well but I thought the poster I was replying to was saying that only creationism was taught in some schools which would mean that it was being taught a more solid basis than a collection of myths, which is what it is. Thats why i was a bit surprised.

Straughn, that is true

New Jersey is damn close to paradise on earth. I don't know why others like to put us down, but we've got a great balance between urban and rural, a nice sea shore, a huge tract of protected woodlands in the pine barrens, plenty of historical sites, very little unemployment, and we've got access to major cities that host world class concerts and other entertainment. The world could do alot worse than become like New Jersey.
You're forgetting/neglecting to mention Bon Jovi :eek:

You're forgetting/neglecting to mention Bon Jovi :eek:
Well, if he'd have stuck to doing cowboy songs like Wanted Dead or Alive and the Young Guns theme song he wouldn't have been half bad. The rest of his stuff is shite, but we've got Bruce Springsteen and Debbie Harry (born in NJ I think) as well as Frank Sinatra and Sarah Vaughn to make up for Bon Jovi.

Straughn, apologies if i made you feel that i am reinforcing rules and opinions. YOu see, me, like you believe in respecting other peoples opinion
Unless i miss my mark, Saint Curie also got the same impression.
-
So what do you say about the Fig Tree incident?

oh, and you know that guy who said sin entered the world because of sex? well, guess what? God doesnt oppose sex, in fact it is something like sacred. and that is why there are rules like dont do adultery,

Well, if he'd have stuck to doing cowboy songs like Wanted Dead or Alive and the Young Guns theme song he wouldn't have been half bad. The rest of his stuff is shite, but we've got Bruce Springsteen and Debbie Harry (born in NJ I think) as well as Frank Sinatra and Sarah Vaughn to make up for Bon Jovi.
True ... wishes/fishes .... ;)

does he? i regret to say that is the only way i have got to support my opinion. If i am being disrespectful, just ignore it.

If you knew everything about the world and how it was created then you would be God... obviously your not...
Not particularly accurate, seeing as how people in EVEN in the CENTURIES LEADING UP TO THIS ONE attest to there being more than just Earth in the make up of "everything". :(

have a blessed day in the Lord...
I would only accept blessing of a "lord" of one who has a broader scope than you imply.

Nah, the guy isn't a Catholic. He isn't "using" the children ;)See, I didn't put it in quotes, so I knew he wasn't catholic. :p

In fact, he's that guy that runs Answers in Genesis...a loony if I ever saw one. He's an offensive and purposefully ignorant fanatic to me, and I'm catholic (mind, I'm not implying anything; the laity's got nothing to do with that problem. :D)!

does he? i regret to say that is the only way i have got to support my opinion. If i am being disrespectful, just ignore it.
Well, there were two instances where you required people not to qualify anything with their opinion.
Frankly, exactly what kind of interaction do you expect to have on a FORUM with that kind of attitude?

I'll talk to y'all on Tuesday. I'm off to a party that's likely to get snowed in.

The cool thing about so many religious threads is that they tend to turn past the R - rating into other territory. Mmmm. :D
Well, once it starts going around in circles i need a little humor. I know it's probably only funny to me, though. :(

I apologize. :(

I'll talk to y'all on Tuesday. I'm off to a party that's likely to get snowed in.
See if you can grab yourself some faticus! :)

i dont know, not desrespecting someone is kind of hard

Shotagon, the answer to that, i think he is a protestant, if memory serves me

pmsl? House?

That's just a little revalation I had while drinking and suffering from severe insomnia one night. Jesus didn't come here to save mankind (except maybe to save us from an angry god of the old testament) he came to save god from himself. He came to tell us that we need to set a positive example for god. See, god's been alone for a long time (eternity). Consequently he's developed some bad habits. We should pity him and help him by helping each other.

Then I sobered up, got some sleep and remembered I'm an atheist.
House .... TV show, probably. That guy's pretty funny. *nods*
BTW, a cool idea.

Budding.
Obviously, budding, clipping & planting.
Mmmm, phloem.

Jesus is peoples "shepherd" because He is the only way to heaven
It depends on which one you read.
They don't all say the same nor mean the same.
"By means of me" doesn't mean "through me" ... the argument along those lines has already been presented early on.

you know, i dont think budding is a pleasant way to reproduce for humans, and having a vivid mental image of it, i dont think i want to do it. besides, it is a woman who suffers in giving birth(dont take this statement seriously, woman who are reading this, its a joke)lol

well, illiterally speaking, it is through him(for the Christians). you see, by believing in Him, you go to heaven. It is like Him giving you a ticket. And I dont think I am making sense for you.

are we ever going to end this? i am feeling tired.

Well, once it starts going around in circles i need a little humor. I know it's probably only funny to me, though. :(

I apologize. :(
WTF?
Why apologize? I agree! He(doublehockeysticks), even the Catholic Church agrees!

*ahem*
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

dont worry showing your sense of humor. Just avoid provocation. by the way, i think this is the last time you will hear from me. Bye.

you know, i dont think budding is a pleasant way to reproduce for humans, and having a vivid mental image of it, i dont think i want to do it. besides, it is a woman who suffers in giving birth(dont take this statement seriously, woman who are reading this, its a joke)lol
So how do you feel about Futurama's Prof. Farnsworth, and Cubert, what with his "celebrating Growth-Scraping Day"?

WTF?
Why apologize? I agree! He(doublehockeysticks), even the Catholic Church agrees!

*ahem*
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
You know what? :mad:

You're right! :mad:

I don't apologize! :mad:

Fuck you guys! :mad:

Imma tell a joke! :mad:

This drunk guy walks into a bar and walks right up to this guys and says, "Hey, man, I just fucked your mother and it was so sweet!"

Everyone expects there to be a fight but the guy just ignores him and he wanders off after a while.

About an hour later the same drunk walsk back in and walks up to the same guy.

"Hey, man. You're mother just gave me the best blowjob I ever had," he says.

Again, everyone expects a fight but teh guy just ignores him and he wanders off.

About an hour later the drunk walks in again and walks up to the same guy.

"Hey, man. Your mother just let me stick it up her butt and man that was the tightest fuck I ever had," he says.

Finally the guy gets pissed off and says, "God damnit, dad, would you just go home, you're drunk!"

Straughn, that is true
Uhm, what is?

You know what? :mad:

You're right! :mad:

I don't apologize! :mad:

Fuck you guys! :mad:

Imma tell a joke! :mad:

This drunk guy walks into a bar and walks right up to this guys and says, "Hey, man, I just fucked your mother and it was so sweet!"

Everyone expects there to be a fight but the guy just ignores him and he wanders off after a while.

About an hour later the same drunk walsk back in and walks up to the same guy.

"Hey, man. You're mother just gave me the best blowjob I ever had," he says.

Again, everyone expects a fight but teh guy just ignores him and he wanders off.

About an hour later the drunk walks in again and walks up to the same guy.

"Hey, man. Your mother just let me stick it up her butt and man that was the tightest fuck I ever had," he says.

Finally the guy gets pissed off and says, "God damnit, dad, would you just go home, you're drunk!"
THAT'S the SPIRIT!!!
:D
lol

THAT'S the SPIRIT!!!
:D
lol
I crack myself up! :p

I crack myself up! :p
Confucius say:
Duck who fly upside-down have quack up!
Someone ELSE says ...:
Woman who lie upside down ...:D

Confucius say:
Duck who fly upside-down have quack up!
Someone ELSE says ...:
Woman who lie upside down ...:D
Ha! :p

I have more of a problem with Wackos who think they're not Wackos wacking me out.

"Can you see your brain?"

"..No"

"Well then it doesn't exist."


Amen.

Confucius say:
Duck who fly upside-down have quack up!
Someone ELSE says ...:
Woman who lie upside down ...:D
Popeye say:
I sweet potato what I sweet potato.
- Tom Robbins

I don't know how it's relevant. I guess it just isn't.

Sometimes I wish we could just exterminate the creationists Auschwitz style. Then I remember I'm supposed to be civilized and get all bummed out.

I'll take a break from civilization for a minute and forget about it afterwards if you will....

Popeye say:
I sweet potato what I sweet potato.
- Tom Robbins

I don't know how it's relevant. I guess it just isn't.
Well, you could just as easily have quoted a few from Jitterbug Perfume ... ;)

"I have more of a problem with Wackos who think they're not Wackos wacking me out. 'Can you see your brain? ..No. Well then it doesn't exist.' "- Jewish Media Control

Your analogy is so flawed. We have seen pictures of the human brain. Therefore, it has been seen, and, therefore, exists. However, where are the pictures of Jesus performing miracles? There are none. Where are the pictures of Adam and Eve at the beginning of the Earth 6,000 years ago though carbon dating has proven the earth to be way above that length? There are none. So who really are the whackos?

"I have more of a problem with Wackos who think they're not Wackos wacking me out. 'Can you see your brain? ..No. Well then it doesn't exist.' "- Jewish Media Control

Your analogy is so flawed. We have seen pictures of the human brain. Therefore, it has been seen, and, therefore, exists. However, where are the pictures of Jesus performing miracles? There are none. Where are the pictures of Adam and Eve at the beginning of the Earth 6,000 years ago though carbon dating has proven the earth to be way above that length? There are none. So who really are the whackos?

I don't think the analogy was totally serious but, you know THOSE brains existed, but you do you know that paticular guy's brain exists? maybe he's like the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz, or they're moving through reflex, or muscle memory...Just saying...

"I have more of a problem with Wackos who think they're not Wackos wacking me out. 'Can you see your brain? ..No. Well then it doesn't exist.' "- Jewish Media Control

Your analogy is so flawed.

Hmmm. Can you see thoughts? No? Hmmm?

A couple of things:

My boyfriend, a Roman Catholic from a Roman Catholic nation, was taught evolution by a priest in his Catholic elementary school.

Also, many Christians believe that creationism and science can work hand in hand. Many interpret the first days of Genesis as being metaphorical references to scientific phenomena that really occurred over a period of thousands or millions of years. For example, God didn't create the sun on the first day, so how do we know the first days were each 24 hours long? Couldn't they have each been a million years? How long is a day for God? And couldn't God have caused the Big Bang? And if the Bible can work hand-in-hand with the Big Bang, then with a little stretching it can take in human evolution and lots of other observable phenomena.

I'm not a Christian myself. The only book I worship is Discover magazine. ;) But I wouldn't mind if my children were taught creationism in school, as long as it were presented as philosophy and not as a replacement for good old science. I think it's important to teach kids both sides of an issue and then allow them to make their own decisions about it.

I think the real reason a lot of people reject Darwin is because they're offended by the idea of being descended from monkeys. But we're not really descended from monkeys anyway, but rather from a common ancestor that was somewhere in between. =)

Shotagon, the answer to that, i think he is a protestant, if memory serves meStill, even other protestants have disowned him if I remember correctly. You can't ignore reality and expect everyone to follow you...

God created humans for a special relationship, not to torture you. you see, the bible says pain and misery entered the world because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of forbidden tree
LOL, I love free will! Logically, it either exists and god is all powerful, or it doesn't and god is evil/apathetic...it's a sucky thing to think about. :(

A couple of things:

My boyfriend, a Roman Catholic from a Roman Catholic nation, was taught evolution by a priest in his Catholic elementary school.

Also, many Christians believe that creationism and science can work hand in hand. Many interpret the first days of Genesis as being metaphorical references to scientific phenomena that really occurred over a period of thousands or millions of years. For example, God didn't create the sun on the first day, so how do we know the first days were each 24 hours long? Couldn't they have each been a million years? How long is a day for God? And couldn't God have caused the Big Bang? And if the Bible can work hand-in-hand with the Big Bang, then with a little stretching it can take in human evolution and lots of other observable phenomena.

I'm not a Christian myself. The only book I worship is Discover magazine. ;) But I wouldn't mind if my children were taught creationism in school, as long as it were presented as philosophy and not as a replacement for good old science. I think it's important to teach kids both sides of an issue and then allow them to make their own decisions about it.

I think the real reason a lot of people reject Darwin is because they're offended by the idea of being descended from monkeys. But we're not really descended from monkeys anyway, but rather from a common ancestor that was somewhere in between. =)
You may consider Scientific American as well. Discover is owned by Disney (same corp that owns it anyway). They usually don't miss much ... the only thing of recent significance that i disagree with is their article on artificial sweetners.

I thought it was cause they discovered sex???
God loves the porn, truly I am made in his image. Remember what it was that caught his attention. They discovered clothes.

Me and God aren't exactly the same. For instance, I'm against raping slaves. But to each their own.

God loves the porn, truly I am made in his image. Remember what it was that caught his attention. They discovered clothes.

Me and God aren't exactly the same. For instance, I'm against raping slaves. But to each their own.

But remember, God says its only okay to rape your own slaves.

If you rape somebody else's slaves, that's coveting, and coveting is wrong.

You're not a Christian.
All Christians have to do is accept Jesus as their savoir.

Good try though.

"We're going to arm you with Christian Patriot missiles," Ham, 54, recently told the 1,200 adults gathered at Calvary Temple here in northern New Jersey."

Dear god he's arming the fanatics with wmd's. He's a terrorist, enemies of the state need to be imprisoned.

"The U.S. branch, funded mostly by donations, has an annual budget of $15 million and 160 employees who produce books and DVDs, maintain a comprehensive website, and arrange more than 500 speeches a year for Ham and four other full-time evangelists."

So in otherwords, he's doing it purely for the money. Ok I can accept that.

"...evolution at the root of all social ills: abortion, divorce, racism, gay marriage, store clerks who say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

Yes, because store clerks should not acknowledge that a good portion of their customer base celebrate non-christian holidays around the same time that christians randomly decided to put chirstmas. "Cause let's face it, xmas is not on Jesus' actual birthday, no one really knows when that is. Dec. 24th is a date picked at random, or by the church using falible calculations. Plus, not saying Merry freakin' christmas is at the top o what's wrong with the world at large.

Now, I'll step off the soap box and let others rant.

Actually, December 25 is the festival of Sol Invictus, by the Roman calander - a cult which the first Christian Emperor Constantine grew up with. The December holiday period - Saturnalia - was universal in the Roman world.

Assigning Jesus' birthday to that date is rather arbitrary (he was born around spring going by the bible, but there's no sound historical basis for believing that), but not entirely without logic. Just changing the name of an established holiday period is much easier than banning one and making another, completely different one.

[QUOTE=The Doors Corporation]I have ever right to judge and make known my judgment. And you have every right to flip me the bird and go your way.


Please let me know if I am incorrect, but I thought that Man was not to Judge, that God was the one and only existing Being that has the right to Judge us fallable humans?

Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand...

You're not a Christian. And what exactly gives you the right to name another person's faith?
any random mutations end up being nothing to harmfull. Except things like Sickle Cell Anaemia, albinism in animals living in the tundra...
I am I right in thinking that God is communicates with christians thorugh prayer? So one can follow God's word by communicating with him through prayer. And then ask forgiveness for any transgressions. Word.
how do you know if there was any random mutations and it wasnt the cause of selective breeding, It's a combo of the two. And my own brain is a reliable source. ^_-
To say that you believe in evolution but not that people evolved from apes is essentially saying that I beleive most facts, but I'm going to ignore that group of them.Um, no. Try again, please.

Really? I've never heard of even a strict religous school teaching creationism in the UK in recent years. It's in RS/RE/Religion classes.


Y'know, saying that the bible is unchanged and written by 'g-d' is rather like writing a story where one of the characters is reading the story that you are in the process of writing. O_o


And if anyone was wondering, it's still the law that we have to have a non-dom Christian Worship every morning at school. -_- (UK)

And if anyone was wondering, it's still the law that we have to have a non-dom Christian Worship every morning at school. -_- (UK)

Yes but it's one of those laws which is often overlooked if it's inconvenient to the school. My old school only had twice weekly assemblies, in the afternoon and they were non-religous. When the inspectors came they were simply told that there wasn't time for a 'daily act of collective worship' and as it was one of the top schools in the country they let it go.

[...]([Jesus] was born around spring going by the bible, but there's no sound historical basis for believing that)[...]If the Shepherds bit was true, with lambs and all, that might be a good indication.

I'm not sure how much seasonal congruence there is, at those latitudes, and with the mediteranian climate there might be a different lambing season, but apparently the weather in that region during the part of the year now considered to be Christmas is truly soaking and not conducive to the whole flock-watching pasttime...

(I'll not offer this up as authority, BTW, unless someone who knows for sure wants to pop and confirm what I've heard...)

But remember, God says its only okay to rape your own slaves.

If you rape somebody else's slaves, that's coveting, and coveting is wrong.
I know this means I'm not a good Christian, which is okay since I'm an athiest, but I'm against all raping of slaves. Improperly coveted or otherwise. Unless it's done by Thomas Jefferson, the boy had mad gub'ment skills, yo.

Also, I know it was okay to murder your children. Especially if they're going to be muslims and God decides he wants to go a little pagan. But is it okay to murder other people's children? Sometimes, there are kids, and they kick the back of my seat (wherever that may be). Now I know they don't fully understand what they're doing, but still, if they were dead I'd be more comfortable.

I know this means I'm not a good Christian, which is okay since I'm an athiest, but I'm against all raping of slaves. Improperly coveted or otherwise. Unless it's done by Thomas Jefferson, the boy had mad gub'ment skills, yo.

Also, I know it was okay to murder your children. Especially if they're going to be muslims and God decides he wants to go a little pagan. But is it okay to murder other people's children? Sometimes, there are kids, and they kick the back of my seat (wherever that may be). Now I know they don't fully understand what they're doing, but still, if they were dead I'd be more comfortable.
Ask the kid kicking your seat if they accept Christ as their savior. If they say no, try to convert them. Then try a little bit harder. If they still say no, then by all means send them to the Hell which they deserve.

If the Shepherds bit was true, with lambs and all, that might be a good indication.

This was the basis for dating I had in mind - but no other account of Jesus's life appears anywhere but the Bible, which makes fact checking a little difficult. The problems with the dating of his birth are well known, of course.

To which I reply, "Did God write that book?"

"Yes!"

"Where you there?"

"Ummm.... well, no..."

"Then how do you know he wrote or in any way inspired it?"

"Well, my pastor..."

"Was he there?"

"Umm... I don't think..."

"Then shut the fuck up and let me teach my class." :)

*Edited because I forgot to put a link to the story...

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-na-creation11feb11,0,1110748.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Oh fundamentalist campaigns to discredit science, how well do I know thee. :(

I've been in plenty of face-to-face evolution-creation arguments over the years. Unfortunately, I was one of the very few openly secular people in my nigh-fundamentalist East Texas school district, at least one of my science teachers explicitly denied evolution, and fundamentalists don't generally change their mind even when vastly outnumbered by secular debaters, much less when they have the 10-1 advantage. Given how little respect students had for teachers at my old school, I suspect that teachers arguing for evolution would have even less effect than my informal debates did.

(BTW, the flaw in the above sequence of replies is that the fundamentalist would not stop at the words "Ummm.... well, no...". Instead, the fundamentalist would probably say "No, but a very reliable source tells me who wrote that books. His name is God, and he speaks through his Word and his preachers and through my prayers."

As an aside, it's rather telling and depressing that I could actually write that sentence when I don't really believe in it. :( )