NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/science/geochallenge.htm


Anyone else think with a rule like this

CAI will be the sole judge of whether you have successfully proven your case.

It will end up with them pulling a "no you dident" on us

I wonder if "God spoke to me in a vision and said the Earth revolves around the sun" would fly.

I wonder if "God spoke to me in a vision and said the Earth revolves around the sun" would fly.
Probably
An explination after their own heart

Technically they both revolve around their common centre of gravity. (Well, actually it's a little more complicated than that.)

Onlt 1K?

Cheap bastards.

Onlt 1K?

Cheap bastards.
Agreed. For such a huge undertaking, I would expect a much bigger reward.

Agreed. For such a huge undertaking, I would expect a much bigger reward.


seriously if you are trying to disprove what has been taught for many years. then the reward should be plentiful.

Are those guys stupid? Even the Vatican has acknowledged that our planet revolves around our star.

Maybe I should give the Pope a call and tell him about them weirdos - after all, as the former head of the Inquisition, he should know what to do with those dopes!

It's gonna be like Hovinds $250,000 Evolution Challenge...

Are those guys stupid? Even the Vatican has acknowledged that our planet revolves around our star.

Maybe I should give the Pope a call and tell him about them weirdos - after all, as the former head of the Inquisition, he should know what to do with those dopes!

Maybe he could excommunicate them for defying Church doctrine.

It's gonna be like Hovinds $250,000 Evolution Challenge...

I had the exact same thought.

Maybe he could excommunicate them for defying Church doctrine.
In this case it would be a step I would like to see taken

If they are going to be stupid about their faith and make the faith look bad they should toss them out by their ear

Maybe he could excommunicate them for defying Church doctrine.

If the website is a legitimate website (that is, not just someone taking the piss), they are most likely from a sect that has already been excommunicated.

Are those guys stupid? Even the Vatican has acknowledged that our planet revolves around our star.

Maybe I should give the Pope a call and tell him about them weirdos - after all, as the former head of the Inquisition, he should know what to do with those dopes!
Isn't the Inquisition long dead? :confused:

Isn't the Inquisition long dead? :confused:
Bursts into the room
NO ONE EXPECTS THE INQUISITION!

Bursts into the room
NO ONE EXPECTS THE INQUISITION!
Hehe (http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_video/spanish.avi)
*points and laughs at the silly 'catholic' sect*

Isn't the Inquisition long dead? :confused:

The "Inquisition" is a fairly inaccurate name. Since it doesn't have roots in a specific location or time. There was no one single Inquisition.

However the Roman Inquisition, who's proper name was the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, does exist under the name Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The current Pope, Beniot XVI worked there when still a cardinal IIRC

The "Inquisition" is a fairly inaccurate name. Since it doesn't have roots in a specific location or time. There was no one single Inquisition.

However the Roman Inquisition, who's proper name was the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, does exist under the name Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The current Pope, Beniot XVI worked there when still a cardinal IIRC
What functions does it perform exactly?

http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/science/geochallenge.htm


Anyone else think with a rule like this


It will end up with them pulling a "no you dident" on us

Am I the only one who can't access the website?

What functions does it perform exactly?

Oversees Catholic Dogma.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of it ends here. The only reason I know about it is because of the fact it is the anscestor of the Roman Inquisition (which come from a period in history I am very interested in)

Am I the only one who can't access the website?
Works for me (on firefox).

Oversees Catholic Dogma.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of it ends here. The only reason I know about it is because of the fact it is the anscestor of the Roman Inquisition (which come from a period in history I am very interested in)
I'll look into it. I'm also quite interested in the period. :)

I'll look into it. I'm also quite interested in the period. :)

Any particular part of it, or the whole Early Modern Period in Europe in general?

I'd be more tempted to bet $1000 that the Catholic group won't pay up, no matter how good the evidence presented is.

NASA should undertake this, and with the 1000$, they should offer up a trip to space. They have a very good shot at proving it, and the contest would garner some new interest for them when they need it.

Any particular part of it, or the whole Early Modern Period in Europe in general?
Anything from the High Middle Ages to the Victorian Age. I like almost all of Western European history.

NASA should undertake this, and with the 1000$, they should offer up a trip to space. They have a very good shot at proving it, and the contest would garner some new interest for them when they need it.

Isn't $1000 a bit cheap for a trip into space?

I'd be more tempted to bet $1000 that the Catholic group won't pay up, no matter how good the evidence presented is.

They must be associated w/ Dr. Dino.

Anything from the High Middle Ages to the Victorian Age. I like almost all of Western European history.

Yeah, so broadly the early modern period (and a bit beyond).

Yeah, so broadly the early modern period (and a bit beyond).
Yes. Do you study history?

Yes. Do you study history?

Yes.

Though unfortunately I am doing combined honours with politics so am not studying Early Modern History this year since preferential treatment is given to students only doing history :(

Yes.

Though unfortunately I am doing combined honours with politics so am not studying Early Modern History this year since preferential treatment is given to students only doing history :(
Too bad. :/ I am studying it in my free time mostly. The books can be a bit pricy, but it's worth it. :)

Too bad. :/ I am studying it in my free time mostly. The books can be a bit pricy, but it's worth it. :)

It may be worth checking in a Library for books.

I'm not quite about where you live, but here if the library doesn't have a book you can order it in from another library.

It may be worth checking in a Library for books.

I'm not quite about where you live, but here if the library doesn't have a book you can order it in from another library.
I do that as well. :) Which periods of history are you studying now?

I do that as well. :) Which periods of history are you studying now?

Napoleonic Europe (so just out of the Early Modern Period) and the early British Welfare State and working class.

Not bad. Still very interesting though

Are those guys stupid? Even the Vatican has acknowledged that our planet revolves around our star.

And they want it proven. And for some reason i doubt they will believe satellite images..

Napoleonic Europe (so just out of the Early Modern Period) and the early British Welfare State and working class.

Not bad. Still very interesting though
Napoleonic Europe is fascinating. He is awesome as a historical figure. As for the British Welfare State and the proletariat, well depends on how its taught. :p Some historians can make it a very cool topic, whilst others can make it seem like the next most boring thing next to Algebra.

Didn't Kepler settle this argument a while back. :rolleyes:

Christ these people move at the speed of wood.

Napoleonic Europe is fascinating. He is awesome as a historical figure.

Definately. No matter what your views are on him (I'm kinda mixed tended towards negative) he has had a profound effect on history, especially European history. We had a very interesting seminar on him and his 'image' which made me realise things that I hadn't before.

As for the British Welfare State and the proletariat, well depends on how its taught. :p Some historians can make it a very cool topic, whilst others can make it seem like the next most boring thing next to Algebra.

It is getting taught very well. However, I am enjoying reading independently (based on reading lists provided) far more than the actual teaching though. Though that is party due to the other people doing rather than any failings of the lecturer who is very good.

Definately. No matter what your views are on him (I'm kinda mixed tended towards negative) he has had a profound effect on history, especially European history. We had a very interesting seminar on him and his 'image' which made me realise things that I hadn't before.
My image of him is more towards positive, although I acknowledge he had his faults. He was the last great ruler of Europe (unless you count Hitler as one too), and also one of the most controversial ones.


It is getting taught very well. However, I am enjoying reading independently (based on reading lists provided) far more than the actual teaching though. Though that is party due to the other people doing rather than any failings of the lecturer who is very good.
I get more from reading as well usually, as opposed to lectures. I learn better that way for some reason. What happens exactly that causes the classes problems?

My image of him is more towards positive, although I acknowledge he had his faults. He was the last great ruler of Europe (unless you count Hitler as one too), and also one of the most controversial ones.

I think he is on a level that Hitler could only dream of (I very much subscribe to the Kershaw view of Hitler). Out of 20th Rulers I would say Stalin is the closest to him (stepping away from morality for a bit ;))

I get more from reading as well usually, as opposed to lectures. I learn better that way for some reason. What happens exactly that causes the classes problems?

They tend to be a load of sycophants.

I think he is on a level that Hitler could only dream of (I very much subscribe to the Kershaw view of Hitler). Out of 20th Rulers I would say Stalin is the closest to him (stepping away from morality for a bit ;))
Meh, I always preferred Hitler over Stalin. The two men weren't even that different (Bullock's view of them). Neither were particularly likeable men though, even if Stalin did maintain a facade of amiability. Either way, Napoleon was a law unto himself, as were the other two. They all had their quirks.

They tend to be a load of sycophants.
How so exactly?

We don't want hearsay, popular opinion, "expert" testimony, majority vote, personal conviction, organizational rulings, superficial analogies, appeals to "simplicity," "apologies" to Galileo, or any other indirect means of persuasion which do not qualify as scientific proof.

NOW they only go by scientific proof?!?

and yes, the earth does NOT, at least in mathematical/astronomical terms, technically revolve around the sun. as was hit upon earlier, they both revolve around the common center of gravity. the sun is one of the two foci in the ellipse that ALL planets/moons/stars revolve around other celestial bodies.

for instance, the moon and Earth's orbit is centered approximately 1,000 kilometers below the Earth's surface, rather than at the dead-center of the Earth.


reading further down on the website i saw this little gem: Can it be proven, by direct and irrefutable scientific evidence, that the Heliocentric system is the ONLY viable system to understand the universe. no, it cannot, since that DOES NOT USE the scientific method. there has to be built-in falsifiability; in layman's terms, if one test comes up false, it has to be automatically false. the question "is there intelligent life in the universe besides from earth?" cannot have the scientific method applied to it. searching one star and finding no life doesn't mean life can't exist elsewhere; you just haven't looked "hard enough." asking "does gravititational pull apply between any two [super-atomic] particles?" CAN have the scientific method applied. find one case where it doesn't work, and the concept of gravity is instantly obsolete.

sorry for the rant... i hate stupidly stubborn people...

How so exactly?

Parroting what ever they are told to.

Of course to snip to the end I'm just bitter because the rounded on me. :D

oh, and one more thing... for a religious sect that very recently abolished an entire section of the cosmos - i.e., did away with "purgatory"... they sure are being a stickler for the rules :p

We're doomed. :( Individually we can be extrordinarily brilliant. Collectively we're not smarter than ants. :(

oh, and one more thing... for a religious sect that very recently abolished an entire section of the cosmos - i.e., did away with "purgatory"... they sure are being a stickler for the rules :p

I'm not sure about this particular sect of Catholicism, but I assume they are affilliated with the excommunicated "traditionalist" Catholics and probably still believe in purgatory.


(Though I never realised the Catholic church had got rid of purgatory:confused: . It always seemed to me to be one of the few parts of Catholic Dogma that actually made sense.)

Parroting what ever they are told to.

Of course to snip to the end I'm just bitter because the rounded on me. :D
lol that would be annoying. Parroting is the dumbest way of learning anything, unless you're just doing it to pass an exam.

lol that would be annoying. Parroting is the dumbest way of learning anything, unless you're just doing it to pass an exam.

Well the whole thing is that for a seminar the tutor put an article she wrote on the required reading for the seminar, which I happened to disagree with. Though I was shouted down, by the other people in my "buzz group"

Well the whole thing is that for a seminar the tutor put an article she wrote on the required reading for the seminar, which I happened to disagree with. Though I was shouted down, by the other people in my "buzz group"
Yay for freedom of expression eh? :p What is a "buzz" group exactly? Are you in the US another country?

Yay for freedom of expression eh? :p What is a "buzz" group exactly? Are you in the US another country?

No UK.

Buzz group. the class is split into small groups to answer specific questions.

The annoying thing was, we don't have to agree with our lecturers, provided our arguements are good.

Like I said. I'm bitter :p

Isn't $1000 a bit cheap for a trip into space?


Yeah, I mean a trip from the east coast of the US to Hawaii at peak season costs more than that - and that's just for the flight!
Well, I suppose the winner can through in the other 13.999 million dollars, sure I nearly have that much floating around in spare change down the backs of car seats, etc, etc, etc...

Sir or madam,

I have a couple of questions if I am going to accept your challenge.

One, what credentials make the individuals who are judging this contest qualified?

Two, a scientific theory is the best possible theory based on the evidence. If a heliocentric model of the solar system is flawed, then could you present your academic proof of a geocentric solar system? If not, why not?

Three, if you are so certain that this heliocentric solar system cannot be proven, then why is $1000 all you're offering? I mean, at my usual billrate that won't cover a week's work and it will take much longer than that to compile the evidence and write up a proof. Certainly, if the task is impossible, you should have no problem offering a $1,000,000 reward.

Four, you have requested that the proof fit within this set of restrictions (very common restrictions), "By "proof" we mean that your explanations must be direct, observable, physical, natural, repeatable, unambiguous and comprehensive. We don't want hearsay, popular opinion, "expert" testimony, majority vote, personal conviction, organizational rulings, superficial analogies, appeals to "simplicity," "apologies" to Galileo, or any other indirect means of persuasion which do not qualify as scientific proof." I request that you send me an email agreeing to not use any of these techniques in your arguments against my proof and that your arguments must remain scientific, meaning you cannot appeal to the authority of the Bible or any other scripture. Your arguments must be based solely on scientific evidence, mathematics and logic. If you are interested I will have my lawyer draw up the documentation that you will sign which will bind you to pay the reward if you cannot use scientific evidence, mathematics and logic to disprove my proof.

Five, where can I view this and other replies to your challenge, as you claimed they would be available on your site.

I look forward to your reply. You should have no problem answering these questions since you have claimed to be "built on its reputation of honesty and truthfulness" and that I could "rest assured that if you do indeed prove your case, you will be rewarded the money."

Thank you for your time,

Eric


I sent this email to the site. I wonder if it will put into the comments as they claimed.

No UK.
Oh cool, same here :p I thought it was a bit odd you didn't do more courses, as the American system prescribes.

Buzz group. the class is split into small groups to answer specific questions.
Like seminar/tutorial groups I guess?

The annoying thing was, we don't have to agree with our lecturers, provided our arguements are good.

Like I said. I'm bitter :p
Hah you'll get your revenge. Just await the moment that one of them disagrees on something your lecture says, then leape, pounce and strike. XD No mercy for those who oppose you. :p

(Though I never realised the Catholic church had got rid of purgatory:confused: . It always seemed to me to be one of the few parts of Catholic Dogma that actually made sense.)[/QUOTE]

yeah, the Vatican basically decided that, since the "unsaved but otherwise 'good' people" category includes dead infants, and since disease is especially rampant in Africa etc., they did away with purgatory so they wouldn't be condemning thousands/millions of babies to eternal... whateverthehell purgatory is :rolleyes:

granted, i'm only paraphrasing what i heard from a comedy show reporting it (The Colbert Report)... but it actually happened!

It's funny how he complains that catholics don't take the passages on geocentrism literally. We do take them literally; it's perfectly valid to think about the earth being the center of the universe, in fact. Of course, it's also perfectly valid to say an atom 5 billion lightyears away is the center of the universe as well. If the author of that website doesn't take new information into account, he's just an idiot, catholic or not.

Sir or madam,

I have a couple of questions if I am going to accept your challenge.

One, what credentials make the individuals who are judging this contest qualified?

Two, a scientific theory is the best possible theory based on the evidence. If a heliocentric model of the solar system is flawed, then could you present your academic proof of a geocentric solar system? If not, why not?

Three, if you are so certain that this heliocentric solar system cannot be proven, then why is $1000 all you're offering? I mean, at my usual billrate that won't cover a week's work and it will take much longer than that to compile the evidence and write up a proof. Certainly, if the task is impossible, you should have no problem offering a $1,000,000 reward.

Four, you have requested that the proof fit within this set of restrictions (very common restrictions), "By "proof" we mean that your explanations must be direct, observable, physical, natural, repeatable, unambiguous and comprehensive. We don't want hearsay, popular opinion, "expert" testimony, majority vote, personal conviction, organizational rulings, superficial analogies, appeals to "simplicity," "apologies" to Galileo, or any other indirect means of persuasion which do not qualify as scientific proof." I request that you send me an email agreeing to not use any of these techniques in your arguments against my proof and that your arguments must remain scientific, meaning you cannot appeal to the authority of the Bible or any other scripture. Your arguments must be based solely on scientific evidence, mathematics and logic. If you are interested I will have my lawyer draw up the documentation that you will sign which will bind you to pay the reward if you cannot use scientific evidence, mathematics and logic to disprove my proof.

Five, where can I view this and other replies to your challenge, as you claimed they would be available on your site.

I look forward to your reply. You should have no problem answering these questions since you have claimed to be "built on its reputation of honesty and truthfulness" and that I could "rest assured that if you do indeed prove your case, you will be rewarded the money."

Thank you for your time,

Eric


I sent this email to the site. I wonder if it will put into the comments as they claimed.

Ah, I love it when an intelligent person digs a huge hole in someone's over inflated ego. I'll keep an eye out on the site, I'm interested to see if it'll go anywhere!

Ah, I love it when an intelligent person digs a huge hole in someone's over inflated ego. I'll keep an eye out on the site, I'm interested to see if it'll go anywhere!

Well, the challenge is three years old and they have not offered any comments section regarding the challenge that I can find. I am quite certain they will not reply. I intend to find every site linking to theirs and send the same information. They said their reputation is on the line and they are correct, that's exactly what I'm going to force them to put on the line.

Well, the challenge is three years old and they have not offered any comments section regarding the challenge that I can find. I am quite certain they will not reply. I intend to find every site linking to theirs and send the same information. They said their reputation is on the line and they are correct, that's exactly what I'm going to force them to put on the line.


I commend your efforts! Like I said, I love seeing intelligent people punch holes in other peoples wacko theories and deflate their ego's a little bit. I'm almost tempted to submit something myself, but I'm sure any 'proof' against my arguement will be along the lines of 'that's not proof, God has made it so', so you can't win. But I think the 1k offer is just in case some other wacko decides to sue for his cash...because it's not that difficult to prove with some basic physics really...

I CBA reading all four pages so did anyone happen to notice this little part... "(If you lose, then we ask that you make a donation to the apostolate of CAI)."

Erm i sense a scam!! :mad: :headbang:

Oh cool, same here :p I thought it was a bit odd you didn't do more courses, as the American system prescribes.

Well that was excluding my politics modules

Like seminar/tutorial groups I guess?

Smaller groups with the seminar group.

Hah you'll get your revenge. Just await the moment that one of them disagrees on something your lecture says, then leape, pounce and strike. XD No mercy for those who oppose you. :p

Ha ha ha. :D

Though I doubt that will happen

Well that was excluding my politics modules
Yes. What are those like btw?

Smaller groups with the seminar group.
Ah yes. We have that too at my uni. The seminar groups are too big to handle it otherwise.


Ha ha ha. :D

Though I doubt that will happen
lol you can always make an opportunity, somehow.

yeah, the Vatican basically decided that, since the "unsaved but otherwise 'good' people" category includes dead infants, and since disease is especially rampant in Africa etc., they did away with purgatory so they wouldn't be condemning thousands/millions of babies to eternal... whateverthehell purgatory is :rolleyes:

granted, i'm only paraphrasing what i heard from a comedy show reporting it (The Colbert Report)... but it actually happened!

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Limbo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

I CBA reading all four pages so did anyone happen to notice this little part... "(If you lose, then we ask that you make a donation to the apostolate of CAI)."

Erm i sense a scam!! :mad: :headbang:


Oh, damn right, I smell it like mouldy cheese rotting in a smelly boot. I noticed that too, but they 'ask' you for a 'contribution'. Being Catholic and all, they can't demand, just ask forcibly, and damn you to Hell if you refuse. I'll just ask for Apostilic Blessing when I'm on my death bed...(on their website, I looked as some other stuff, it's quite funny in parts)

..And the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Scientific fact. Prove it? Says here in the Bible... ;)

Yes. What are those like btw?


They are OK, but this semester the politics department really out did themselves this semester in offering crap modules :(

What are you doing by the way?

They are OK, but this semester the politics department really out did themselves this semester in offering crap modules :(

What are you doing by the way?
Law with French. The former is interesting, albeit definitely not something I am going to continue with. The later is great, since I love languages. I am thinking of switching over to Economics next year.

Law with French. The former is interesting, albeit definitely not something I am going to continue with. The later is great, since I love languages. I am thinking of switching over to Economics next year.

Sounds it. Economics has always been something I'd liked to have studied but never seem to get around to it.

For the French component do you need spend a year there or in some other francophone area?

Sounds it. Economics has always been something I'd liked to have studied but never seem to get around to it.
There are soooo many subjects out there I'd love to do. :( Economics is the best choice though for me.

For the French component do you need spend a year there or in some other francophone area?
Yep, a year in France. :) If I choose so anyway. I am losing a year due to the move to Economics, so I might not do it.

Agreed. For such a huge undertaking, I would expect a much bigger reward.
Isn't their money already tied up in Bush administration "officials" and priest sexual abuse scandal defenses?
Oh yeah, that and trying to back up Kent Hovinid?

Isn't their money already tied up in Bush administration "officials" and priest sexual abuse scandal defenses?
Oh yeah, that and trying to back up Kent Hovinid?
Nah, I'm sure they pray for it and it magically lands on their altars :)

Sir or madam,

I have a couple of questions if I am going to accept your challenge.

One, what credentials make the individuals who are judging this contest qualified?

Two, a scientific theory is the best possible theory based on the evidence. If a heliocentric model of the solar system is flawed, then could you present your academic proof of a geocentric solar system? If not, why not?

Three, if you are so certain that this heliocentric solar system cannot be proven, then why is $1000 all you're offering? I mean, at my usual billrate that won't cover a week's work and it will take much longer than that to compile the evidence and write up a proof. Certainly, if the task is impossible, you should have no problem offering a $1,000,000 reward.

Four, you have requested that the proof fit within this set of restrictions (very common restrictions), "By "proof" we mean that your explanations must be direct, observable, physical, natural, repeatable, unambiguous and comprehensive. We don't want hearsay, popular opinion, "expert" testimony, majority vote, personal conviction, organizational rulings, superficial analogies, appeals to "simplicity," "apologies" to Galileo, or any other indirect means of persuasion which do not qualify as scientific proof." I request that you send me an email agreeing to not use any of these techniques in your arguments against my proof and that your arguments must remain scientific, meaning you cannot appeal to the authority of the Bible or any other scripture. Your arguments must be based solely on scientific evidence, mathematics and logic. If you are interested I will have my lawyer draw up the documentation that you will sign which will bind you to pay the reward if you cannot use scientific evidence, mathematics and logic to disprove my proof.

Five, where can I view this and other replies to your challenge, as you claimed they would be available on your site.

I look forward to your reply. You should have no problem answering these questions since you have claimed to be "built on its reputation of honesty and truthfulness" and that I could "rest assured that if you do indeed prove your case, you will be rewarded the money."

Thank you for your time,

Eric


I sent this email to the site. I wonder if it will put into the comments as they claimed.
WooT!!!
You ROCK!!! *bows*
Please, if you would, keep us (or at least me) posted on this. TG if you don't feel like starting a new thread with the response (it may take that long, i know) if this one isn't still happening.

Nah, I'm sure they pray for it and it magically lands on their altars :)
Damn, you're right. I forgot completely about that whole "manna from heaven" angle. Serves me right for missing tithe and staff meetings, i guess! ;)

I CBA reading all four pages so did anyone happen to notice this little part... "(If you lose, then we ask that you make a donation to the apostolate of CAI)."

Erm i sense a scam!! :mad: :headbang:

Yes, I did. I decided to leave that alone for now, however. If they do reply I am seriously going to have my lawyer draw a document for them to sign.

Damn, you're right. I forgot completely about that whole "manna from heaven" angle. Serves me right for missing tithe and staff meetings, i guess! ;)
The Lord is merciful and forgives you, I am sure :p So long as you make a rather sizeable donation to compensate for your dark ways.

WooT!!!
You ROCK!!! *bows*
Please, if you would, keep us (or at least me) posted on this. TG if you don't feel like starting a new thread with the response (it may take that long, i know) if this one isn't still happening.

I intend to make this issue as famous as possible. I'm tired of these fake scientists deluding and misleading people. And here I thought there was this rule about bearing false witness.

I suppose, since helio-centrism has been abandoned though (but not in favor of geo-centrism!!), they are technically correct.

After all the sun is moving around the center of the galaxy, and the galaxy itself is moving aroung the centre of the local super-cluster, which in turn is in motion. So if you think about it, the earth is not actually, 'revolving' around the sun in a fixed co-ordinate system.

It is, of course, still in an eliptical orbit around the sun.

It's sort of the perfect out, and let's them get donations.

I intend to make this issue as famous as possible. I'm tired of these fake scientists deluding and misleading people. And here I thought there was this rule about bearing false witness.
Amen to that. *bows*
In fact, upon your permission, i may be inclined to cite said results on my small-town radio show.

So long as you make a rather sizeable donation to compensate for your dark ways.
I'm pretty convinced i don't have enough days on this plane of existence to make up the compensation, in the monetary sense or, really, any other. ;)
Even if i was Cheney (same frames of reference)

And of course, in as much as the sun exerts a gravitational pull on the planets, they likewise exert a gravitational pull on the sun, thus making the entire system orbit and instaneous centre, which moves depending on the orbital co-ordinates of the respective bodies. (In other words, they orbit each other, with different periodicity).

I am not an astronomer though, so I don't know how pronounced this compound motion is. I do know it has been use as a method to detect distant planets though.

http://www.biblelight.net/kepler.htm

This is interesting. And I quote:

The problem with this, Michael, is that you are working with an incorrect model of the Geocentric system. In the Tychonic system, which we are using, all the planets orbit the sun, not the earth. It is the sun that orbits the earth, and carries the planets along with it. Thus, the diagram you showed which has Venus orbiting the earth is wrong, and that is why the model doesn't work for you.

In other words, they are using a model, that holds the earth as fixed, and acknowledges that everything else in the solar system revolves around the sun. If you do this you can take any planet in the galaxy and make it the center of the universe since the relationship is spatial. It's ridiculous.

In other words, they concede heliocentrism but they force it to be looked at from the perspective of the earth standing still and everything else moving absent of that fact. The problem is you can do that anywhere and it doesn't change the math or the physics or anything else. Of course, it's nonsensical, but what do they care, right?

For anyone who is wondering, the model they espouse is the heliocentric model but from the point of view of a stationary earth.

Example. Look at a model of solar system by your little brother, sister or kids. It has all these elliptical orbits. Now instead of the base of the system being the sun you make it the earth but you don't modify the model at all other than moving the base. Now everything still moves around the sun but you pretend the earth is the center, because you want it to be.

Can they prove the universe is geocentric and can they provide a model for Jupiter to be the center?

They show their ignorance in the very prompt because, technically speaking, Earth and Sol both revolve around a common center of gravity. The fact that the sun's vastly greater mass causes that center to almost coincide with the sun allows for the useful illusion that one revolves around the other, but that still isn't really true.

Also, who wants to bet that some guy could brilliantly and independently rederive the entirety of Kepler's work, apply it to self-made solar observations, and the organization would still take a single glance and say "Nope! Wrong!". Like you can expect them to actually admit the validity of a rational argument, or even understand the math if they wanted to....

That $1,000 could be way better spent on someone who actually needs it; people who waste time and money to try and disrupt scientific concepts that are already established and tested in the name of "religion" are shameless.

That $1,000 could be way better spent on someone who actually needs it; people who waste time and money to try and disrupt scientific concepts that are already established and tested in the name of "religion" are shameless.
Only a grand? That only buys about 4 hours of my labor. Hardly worth the effort, even if it were possible.

For anyone who is wondering, the model they espouse is the heliocentric model but from the point of view of a stationary earth.

Example. Look at a model of solar system by your little brother, sister or kids. It has all these elliptical orbits. Now instead of the base of the system being the sun you make it the earth but you don't modify the model at all other than moving the base. Now everything still moves around the sun but you pretend the earth is the center, because you want it to be.

Well, I think technically, they are using a geo-centric model, i.e. the earth is at the centre of the universe. The divergence from the classical geocentric model is however, that everything else is not in regular periodic orbit around the earth, but rather follows an extremely complicated path.

They will further argue that as there is no defined 'centre' -that is no-one knows where it is - of the universe in terms of absolute co-ordinates, it is impossible to prove that the arbitrary local co-ordinates they have chosen, (with earth as 0,0,0 or 0, theta, theta), are not co-incidental with the abosute co-ordinates for the centre.

It's relatively trivial to show that's wrong however, simply because it is easy to show that the earth is moving with respect to any arbitrary co-ordinates chosen. And therefore, cannot be the centre of the universe.

Only a grand? That only buys about 4 hours of my labor. Hardly worth the effort, even if it were possible.

F=ma.

There you go, I've saved you 3 hrs 59 minutes.

F=ma.

There you go, I've saved you 3 hrs 59 minutes.
See, though, the labor isn't in the proof. It's in the persuasion. One still has to convince this group to give you the grand. You haven't ever had difficult customers that owed you a lot of money, have you.

Can they prove the universe is geocentric and can they provide a model for Jupiter to be the center?That's easy; just move Jupiter where the sun is now and have everything else move with it. It's just a difference in perspective, nothing else.

Only a grand? That only buys about 4 hours of my labor. Hardly worth the effort, even if it were possible.

They could use it to buy water purifiers for villages in Africa or South America...$1,000 here is just a waste of time.

F=ma.

There you go, I've saved you 3 hrs 59 minutes.
Besides, if you fix the Earth in a coordinate system, then the position vector to Earth is constant. Earth doesn't move in that coordinate system, but everything else does. It's like standing still on a moving train; in what coordinate system are you moving?

See, though, the labor isn't in the proof. It's in the persuasion. One still has to convince this group to give you the grand. You haven't ever had difficult customers that owed you a lot of money, have you.

You'll never pesuade them. They couldn't even be bothered to crack open a high-school physics book, I doubt an email will change their mind.

Besides, if you fix the Earth in a coordinate system, then the position vector to Earth is constant. Earth doesn't move in that coordinate system, but everything else does. It's like standing still on a moving train; in what coordinate system are you moving?

If these religious morons can't understand the chapter in a physics book on Kepler's Laws, they probably can't begin to comprehend even the basics of relativity.

Maybe I should give the Pope a call and tell him about them weirdos - after all, as the former head of the Inquisition, he should know what to do with those dopes!
The Inquisition?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! :eek:

Well, I think technically, they are using a geo-centric model, i.e. the earth is at the centre of the universe. The divergence from the classical geocentric model is however, that everything else is not in regular periodic orbit around the earth, but rather follows an extremely complicated path.

They will further argue that as there is no defined 'centre' -that is no-one knows where it is - of the universe in terms of absolute co-ordinates, it is impossible to prove that the arbitrary local co-ordinates they have chosen, (with earth as 0,0,0 or 0, theta, theta), are not co-incidental with the abosute co-ordinates for the centre.

It's relatively trivial to show that's wrong however, simply because it is easy to show that the earth is moving with respect to any arbitrary co-ordinates chosen. And therefore, cannot be the centre of the universe.

The point is it's really no different. The problem is that they have to give some reason for why the earth would be stationary as it defies classical physics. Of course, they have no such reason.

Besides, if you fix the Earth in a coordinate system, then the position vector to Earth is constant. Earth doesn't move in that coordinate system, but everything else does. It's like standing still on a moving train; in what coordinate system are you moving?

I understand the objection, but to make that co-incidental with the centre of the universe, you'd have to assume that the centre of the universe is accelerating at an identical non-linear rate to earth, and with respect to the location of all other bodies. Which sort of makes it not the centre anymore.

I understand the objection, but to make that co-incidental with the centre of the universe, you'd have to assume that the centre of the universe is accelerating at an identical non-linear rate to earth, and with respect to the location of all other bodies. Which sort of makes it not the centre anymore. I think. I'll have to ponder this for a bit. I'm sure I'm right about that though.

Of course, you're right. Basically, you have to arbitrarily say that no matter what happens the earth is the center of the universe regardless of what motions everything else goes through. Who can disprove something when it one makes it a rule from which to work?

i hate these idiots...... they make senseable christians look well stupid....

By the same ridiculous premise, I declare myself the center of the universe and I offer $1000 to anyone who can prove me wrong.

Of course, you're right. Basically, you have to arbitrarily say that no matter what happens the earth is the center of the universe regardless of what motions everything else goes through. Who can disprove something when it one makes it a rule from which to work?

I don't think that they are that interested in physics to be honest. Actually, I am sort of hoping that this is a hoax website. I get the feeling that it is not though.

Only a grand? That only buys about 4 hours of my labor. Hardly worth the effort, even if it were possible.
$250 an hour? Hmmm ... *escort, methinks* ;)
Or musician. Not too dissimilar.

The Inquisition?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! :eek:

*raises hand*

I do.

*glances nervously at the door*

I don't think that they are that interested in physics to be honest. Actually, I am sort of hoping that this is a hoax website. I get the feeling that it is not though.

Nope. It's not a hoax. The 'challenge' has been out there for three years. It's also intentionally vague as they know people will reply to the challenge thinking they ascribe to the geocentric model of the old church rather than this ridiculous "we start with the premise that the earth is the center and only look at it from there" model, but all other motion matches the proper model of the universe.

Hehe (http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_video/spanish.avi)
*points and laughs at the silly 'catholic' sect*

I like the hat. I wish I had an outfit just like that one. :p

$250 an hour? Hmmm ... *escort, methinks* ;)
Or musician. Not too dissimilar.
Engineering consulting fee. Sorry.

That's like a league of the colour-blind offering a tidy million to prove that pink exists.

"Still looks grey to us - NEXT!"

How pointless can it get?

Engineering consulting fee. Sorry.
No, that's quite alright, no apologies necessary.
That's a good racket, i'm lead to understand. *nods*

How pointless can it get?
*GASP* :eek:

*scrambles off desperately*