NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: I regard this as a vindication of sorts. A teacher at my oldest grandson's school recommended to his mother that he be put on Ritalin. I went through the roof! Fortunately, his mother and step-father have more sense than to allow such a thing. I regard Ritalin and other drugs for "hyperactive" children to be nothing more than a reflection of the inability of some teachers ( most of whom are women ) to deal with the normal tendency among boys toward physical activity. Now we discover it's caused heart problems and death! Your thoughts on this?


Warning Urged on Stimulants Like Ritalin (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/10/health/policy/10drug.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin)


By GARDINER HARRIS
Published: February 10, 2006
GAITHERSBURG, Md., Feb. 9 — Stimulants like Ritalin could have dangerous effects on the heart, and federal regulators should require manufacturers to provide written guides to patients and place prominent warnings on drug labels describing these risks, a federal advisory panel voted on Thursday.

The panel's recommendation promises to intensify a long-running debate about whether the medicines are overused. Nearly four million patients take the drugs to treat attention deficit disorder and hyperactivity, and committee members said they wanted to slow explosive growth in the drugs' use.

The committee's action was unexpected. The Food and Drug Administration had convened the panel to help it determine how to research possible heart risks of the drugs. The agency had not asked the committee to address the drugs' labels, and agency officials seemed taken aback by the votes, saying they would not act on the committee's recommendations anytime soon.

"We don't think anything different needs to be done right now," Dr. Thomas Laughren, director of the Division of Psychiatry Products at the agency, said at a hastily arranged news conference after the meeting. "We think the labeling right now is adequate."

The committee voted unanimously to recommend patient guides, and it voted 8 to 7 to suggest that stimulant labels carry the most serious of the agency's drug-risk warnings — a "black box."

"I must say that I have grave concerns about the use of these drugs and grave concerns about the harm they may cause," said Dr. Steven Nissen, a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic and a panel member.

The votes came after F.D.A. medical officers described reports of 25 sudden deaths among people taking stimulants — the deaths were mostly children — and a preliminary analysis of millions of health records that suggested stimulants might increase the risks of strokes and serious arrhythmias in children and adults. The reports of sudden deaths never exceeded one in a million for any stimulant drug, although the F.D.A. usually receives reports of only a fraction of drug problems.

The preliminary analysis suggested that the stimulants might increase heart risks more than twofold. Such an increase may not be significant in children, whose heart risks are low, but could cause concern in adults, panel members said.

One of the drugs, Ritalin, has been marketed since 1955, and dozens of studies have shown it to be safe and effective. But no studies have been of sufficient duration or included enough participants to evaluate stimulants' long-term effects on the heart.

But the drugs' soaring popularity and increasing use in adults, panel members said, mean that the F.D.A. should study them more closely and warn patients and doctors about the potential risks to the heart.

Arthur A. Levin, director of the Center for Medical Consumers in New York City and a member of the panel, said that patients assumed that stimulants were safe, but that that confidence was misplaced.

"For us to sit around and talk about it, and for us to not make a very strong warning about the uncertainty of these drugs and their possible risks, would be unethical," Mr. Levin said.

Dr. Thomas R. Fleming, a professor of biostatistics at the University of Washington and a panel member, said stimulants might be far more dangerous to the heart than Vioxx or Bextra, drugs that were withdrawn over the past two years because of their ill effects on the heart.

The committee was composed largely of drug-safety specialists. Next month, the F.D.A. will ask another committee, mostly pediatricians and psychiatrists, to weigh the same issues. Such clinicians tend to focus on drug benefits and oppose warnings that might scare patients.

The vote by the drug-safety panel reflects changing notions about what the drug agency should do in the face of uncertainty. For decades, it generally refused to warn doctors about theoretical medical risks, even when there were strong hints of danger. But the committee said such silence was a mistake, particularly when millions took the drugs.

[ This article is two pages long. To read the rest of the article, go here (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/10/health/policy/10drug.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th). ]

Ritalin is evil stuff, it can sometimes have the same effect as what it is trying to prevent, or turn children into zombies, or make them violent, horrible stuff.

The scary thing is that I have ADD, so it could have been me having any of this stuff happen to me :eek:

Depends on the student in question. Some kids really do NOT need to be on it. For me, it helped me actually focus in school till I could build my own self control *The wonders of growing up... er, sort of. :p *.

I regard Ritalin and other drugs for "hyperactive" children to be nothing more than a reflection of the inability of some teachers ( most of whom are women ) to deal with the normal tendency among boys toward physical activity.
While I'd agreed with your opposition to drugging children (fortunately it's not - yet - common in Britain), I wouldn't agree with your diagnosis. Hyperactivity is becoming increasing common, and it's not just a lack of corporal punishment leading to children becoming violent to other classmates. The two major causes seem to be the effects of poor diet (including sugar-induced hyperactivity) and a general lack of discipline from the children's parents - and I don't mean an aversion to smacking, but the fact that parents in generally don't really care what their children get up to.

Depends on the student in question. Some kids really do NOT need to be on it. For me, it helped me actually focus in school till I could build my own self control *The wonders of growing up... er, sort of. :p *.
Too bad I wasn't around to help you with that. Self-control wasn't a problem for my kids. :)

While I'd agreed with your opposition to drugging children (fortunately it's not - yet - common in Britain), I wouldn't agree with your diagnosis. Hyperactivity is becoming increasing common, and it's not just a lack of corporal punishment leading to children becoming violent to other classmates. The two major causes seem to be the effects of poor diet (including sugar-induced hyperactivity) and a general lack of discipline from the children's parents - and I don't mean an aversion to smacking, but the fact that parents in generally don't really care what their children get up to.
Agreed. Children need to be taught discipline and respect at home. There has to be a balance between independent thought and basic grooming.

the inability of some teachers ( most of whom are women )
Most teachers nowadays are women either way. What is your point? :confused:

Too bad I wasn't around to help you with that. Self-control wasn't a problem for my kids. :)
*lol* In this case it wasn't a parent afraid of disapline, it really was a learning disability.

Before I was on it, my teacher used to send me out to bounce balls against a wall. Later on I figured out how to channel it into books.

Of course then I read all the time, even when I shouldn't have, but at least I wasn't bothering other student by attempting to do their classwork. ;)

While I'd agreed with your opposition to drugging children (fortunately it's not - yet - common in Britain), I wouldn't agree with your diagnosis. Hyperactivity is becoming increasing common, and it's not just a lack of corporal punishment leading to children becoming violent to other classmates. The two major causes seem to be the effects of poor diet (including sugar-induced hyperactivity) and a general lack of discipline from the children's parents - and I don't mean an aversion to smacking, but the fact that parents in generally don't really care what their children get up to.
Sorry parents are often the source of most of the problems their children have, IMHO. Parents who allow their children to have anything other than a healthy diet, or even worse, who don't give a damn about their own children, should be the ones on the recieving end of severe corporal punishment, not their kids. ( This subject really makes me angry! ) :mad:

*lol* In this case it wasn't a parent afraid of disapline, it really was a learning disability.

Before I was on it, my teacher used to send me out to bounce balls against a wall. Later on I figured out how to channel it into books.

Of course then I read all the time, even when I shouldn't have, but at least I wasn't bothering other student by attempting to do their classwork. ;)
You sound a lot like me when I was little. I could be very disruptive at times. Fortunately, Ritalin and other drugs didn't exist at that time. I too had a very wise teacher who recognized my "hyperactivity" for what it was and sent me out periodically to run around the building. Reading became my passion as well, and I'm still reaping the benefits of that. :)

*lol* In this case it wasn't a parent afraid of disapline, it really was a learning disability.

Before I was on it, my teacher used to send me out to bounce balls against a wall. Later on I figured out how to channel it into books.

Of course then I read all the time, even when I shouldn't have, but at least I wasn't bothering other student by attempting to do their classwork. ;)
Actualy you sound a lot like me ... but I channeled it REALLY early on into books ... maybe there was something to it when my teacher mentioned it to my parents

Oh whell she was an asshat anyways

I never went in to actualy get evaluated with ADD or any other learning disorder maybe I should have

Most teachers nowadays are women either way. What is your point? :confused:
My point is that unless a girl has grown up with brothers ( and perhaps not even then ), if she becomes a teacher she has no experience with little boys to guide her understanding.

Sorry parents are often the source of most of the problems their children have, IMHO. Parents who allow their children to have anything other than a healthy diet, or even worse, who don't give a damn about their own children, should be the ones on the recieving end of severe corporal punishment, not their kids. ( This subject really makes me angry! ) :mad:
AMEN!

My point is that unless a girl has grown up with brothers ( and perhaps not even then ), if she becomes a teacher she has no experience with little boys to guide her understanding.
Maybe this is not the case in the USA, but in Europe girls can be, and usually are, equally aggressive to boys. And often, there are more girls than boys in classes. So the teacher's gender does not matter. Teachers should be taught in student psychology I believe, and attempt to gain a better understanding of their students.

Too bad I wasn't around to help you with that. Self-control wasn't a problem for my kids. :)
What ya have to realize, Eut, is that ADD and ADHD are actually two different things.

I am 100% positive that I suffer from some sort of ADD, yet I have no tendency towards being hyperactive. I *can control my body just fine, and sit still for extended periods. (*always have been able to)

BUT, I can't get my mind to settle down. My thoughts constantly race, and I can't focus on any one thing for more than a minute or two. I can't watch movies without sitting at the computer so I have extra stimulus to keep me going. (I miss alot of lines)

Bottom line, discipline can make a kid sit still, but it can't make him pay attention because it isn't a "choice" to let my mind race.

Since I haven't had insurance since I was 16 (ten years ago), I've always treated my problem with Marijuana, which always seems to let my brain slow down just enough to actually get things done, and pay attention to everything someone says, instead of just the first 2 sentences.

So while Ritalin might be the wrong answer, and it's obviously risky, it doesn't mean that ADD and ADHD can be treated with discipline. It's like trying to yell at an Alzheimer patient.

I have a friend with a 3 year old, she thought he was "too hyper" so she took him to his Dr. who said he had ADD. I personally was worried about the diagnosis, since it was the first time that Dr. had seen him, and he only saw him for about 10 minutes. When she asked me for advice I told her I thought she should have her child see a neurologist before putting him on Ritalin (you know since he was only 3!) so she did, she is now pissed at me because the neurologist found nothing wrong with him, no ADD, no autism, nothing. He said that part of his problem is that he is a 3 year old boy, and the other is that his mom doesn't set limits and follow through. She doesn't speak to me anymore.

I can't understand drugging your kid if you don't even have a real diagnosis. There are about 40 diseases that can cause ADD-like symptoms, some of them need drugs, some need therepy, and some need a change in diet. I would make sure what was wrong with my kid before pumping them full of drugs.

That being said, my cousin has ADDHD, he takes Ritalin, it has changed his life, I think it's a good thing, but he went through the whole testing thing before they put him on it. He had allergy tests, blood tests, CAT scans, ect. They even tried behavioral therepy before they resorted to Ritalin, nothing else fit, nothing else worked, he needs Ritalin. He is trying to ween off of it since he graduates highschool next year, they are trying the therepy again. I hope it works out for him.

I never went in to actualy get evaluated with ADD or any other learning disorder maybe I should have
I managed to hit all catagories under the US special education laws. I'm ADD/ADHD and have learning disabilities in Math and (ironically) spelling. I'm also catagorized gifted and talented and have a Sec 503 (physical disability).

I'm special. ;)

The thing with ritalin is that it IS a mood altering drug and should be proscribed with care and the kid should be taken off ASAP. I was on it from 2nd grade to the very begining of 5th when I was taken off of it.

It helped me focus, yes, but I REALLY disliked the effects (and could be why I balk at any type of mood altering drug, legal or no).

But I have to agree with Eut, it's being over used for kids whom parents and some teachers just don't want to deal with. What's sad is that ritalin just masks the problems, it doesn't address them.

Maybe this is not the case in the USA, but in Europe girls can be, and usually are, equally aggressive to boys. And often, there are more girls than boys in classes. So the teacher's gender does not matter. Teachers should be taught in student psychology I believe, and attempt to gain a better understanding of their students.
I don't know about European teachers, but student psychology, special education, and student development were a good chunk of my undergrad (and a huge part of my graduate) programs in Education.

Now if students would just stop inventing new things to cause problems. ;)

What ya have to realize, Eut, is that ADD and ADHD are actually two different things.

I am 100% positive that I suffer from some sort of ADD, yet I have no tendency towards being hyperactive. I *can control my body just fine, and sit still for extended periods. (*always have been able to)

BUT, I can't get my mind to settle down. My thoughts constantly race, and I can't focus on any one thing for more than a minute or two. I can't watch movies without sitting at the computer so I have extra stimulus to keep me going. (I miss alot of lines)

Bottom line, discipline can make a kid sit still, but it can't make him pay attention because it isn't a "choice" to let my mind race.

Since I haven't had insurance since I was 16 (ten years ago), I've always treated my problem with Marijuana, which always seems to let my brain slow down just enough to actually get things done, and pay attention to everything someone says, instead of just the first 2 sentences.

So while Ritalin might be the wrong answer, and it's obviously risky, it doesn't mean that ADD and ADHD can be treated with discipline. It's like trying to yell at an Alzheimer patient.

Interesting ... I also find it hard to do anything without something like a computer in front of me or a book or something.

I am getting the feeling more and more throughout this discussion that maybe I SHOULD have at least been checked out when I was younger

I have ADD. Apparently, I always had it.

I suffered a bout of depresson when I was about 26 or so. After seeing the psychiatrist, and talking out my problems, he had me take a series of computerized tests and lo and behold, I had a name for what was wrong with me! :)

Well, he prescribed some medication to help me with myfocus. Wasn't Ritalin. It was Dexedrine(A dextroamphetamine). Seemed to work okay, but I didn't care for it. I couldn't really put my finger on what it was I didn't like at first. But as I think back on it, I think it was the realization that I didn't need it to cope. I had apparently grew up with ADD and never knew it. I had developed my own methods for dealing with it. Now that I actually had a name for what was wrong with me, it was a huge help in understanding my coing mechanisms and thus recognizing my strengths and weaknesses as far as my ADD goes.

Because it does have it's plusses. In fact, I might go so far as to suggest that it isn't a disorder at all. Just because I don't process information in exactly the same way as the majority of people, does that mean I'm 'suffring from a disorder'? No. And it doesn't mean that for anybody else as well.

Perhaps it would behoove us to consider the possibility that children and adults with ADD aren't MEANT to think and behave like the other children.

Just some food for thou...

OOH Shiny Object! *pounces*

What ya have to realize, Eut, is that ADD and ADHD are actually two different things.

I am 100% positive that I suffer from some sort of ADD, yet I have no tendency towards being hyperactive. I *can control my body just fine, and sit still for extended periods. (*always have been able to)

BUT, I can't get my mind to settle down. My thoughts constantly race, and I can't focus on any one thing for more than a minute or two. I can't watch movies without sitting at the computer so I have extra stimulus to keep me going. (I miss alot of lines)

Bottom line, discipline can make a kid sit still, but it can't make him pay attention because it isn't a "choice" to let my mind race.

Since I haven't had insurance since I was 16 (ten years ago), I've always treated my problem with Marijuana, which always seems to let my brain slow down just enough to actually get things done, and pay attention to everything someone says, instead of just the first 2 sentences.

So while Ritalin might be the wrong answer, and it's obviously risky, it doesn't mean that ADD and ADHD can be treated with discipline. It's like trying to yell at an Alzheimer patient.
I'm not sufficiently acquainted with ADHD to respond intelligently to this. As with most problems involving people, the causes are probably complex and most likely involve genetics, diet, exercise and experience. Imposed discipline is definitely not a cure-all.

Interesting ... I also find it hard to do anything without something like a computer in front of me or a book or something.

I am getting the feeling more and more throughout this discussion that maybe I SHOULD have at least been checked out when I was younger
There is such a thing as adult ADD/ADHD. And you can get it checked out.

The weird part is that it swings so much. Some ADD kids cannot focus on anything, but then there are those like me who can focus too much.

I've met several children who have been officially diagnosed with ADD or ADHD.

I believe that in their cases, the diagnoses were incorrect.

I strongly believe that it's not a matter of discipline, nor a matter of pharmaceuticals (although there are probably a few that really need the medicine).

Most of the time, I feel it's a lack of parental attention - positive attention - what I call "floor time".

If you ignore your kids, never play with them, never talk to them, and you let the TV and XBox raise them, they're going to turn out fucked-up. Even if they were "normal" to begin with.

There is such a thing as adult ADD/ADHD. And you can get it checked out.

The weird part is that it swings so much. Some ADD kids cannot focus on anything, but then there are those like me who can focus too much.
Sometimes I suspect that all these "diagnoses" are little more than an attempt to clinicise normal differences between people. Just because, for example, little boys tend to be more active than little girls does not mean that they have an "illness."

I've met several children who have been officially diagnosed with ADD or ADHD.

I believe that in their cases, the diagnoses were incorrect.

I strongly believe that it's not a matter of discipline, nor a matter of pharmaceuticals (although there are probably a few that really need the medicine).

Most of the time, I feel it's a lack of parental attention - positive attention - what I call "floor time".

If you ignore your kids, never play with them, never talk to them, and you let the TV and XBox raise them, they're going to turn out fucked-up. Even if they were "normal" to begin with.
I tend to agree with that. :)

Most of the time, I feel it's a lack of parental attention - positive attention - what I call "floor time".
you do floor time too?:eek:

wow. we call it that and everything I thought we made it up:p

yeah. We have kids come stay at our house sometimes, kids that nobody else wants to babysit "they are crazy evil" is what people say when they hear we are going to watch them. It's just not true. 15 minutes into the visit they are completely different kids. My friend's 2 year old, who won't listen to anyone, will listen to me. It's all about how you treat them, talk to them like they are people, spend time with them, let them know where the boundry is and they stay well on the right side of it, out of respect. ;)

There is such a thing as adult ADD/ADHD. And you can get it checked out.

The weird part is that it swings so much. Some ADD kids cannot focus on anything, but then there are those like me who can focus too much.

I do both. I have two modes of operation; Intense concentration, and wide-angle thinking. I have found uses for both. People who 'don't focus on anything' are, in fact, thinking too many different things. Our minds are racing and jumping tracks of thought at reckless rates. Makes it very difficult to prioritize on a specific set of tasks, but it is excellent for intuitive leaps of judgement.

For instance, I have taught myself to pay attention to one thing at a time, and to jump tracks to a different think that needs my attention and back again. What I can't do is concentrate on a series of related things without taking in everything around me. That's why when I drive, I don't listen to the radio or have a conversation. I have to make sure that everything around me has somethng to do with driving. I drive very well because I see everything that's gong on and can react with incredible speed(an advantage of ADD) but I drive terribly and am badly distracted when I have the radio on or someone talking to me when I'm driving( a disadvantage)

Sometimes I suspect that all these "diagnoses" are little more than an attempt to clinicise normal differences between people. Just because, for example, little boys tend to be more active than little girls does not mean that they have an "illness."
And I would agree with you that too many are being diagnosed when the problem lies elsewhere (or the problem is, as Smunkeeville noted, the kid's a three-year-old boy). The find line comes from finding those who actually DO have it, and those who are just active.

Because it does have it's plusses. In fact, I might go so far as to suggest that it isn't a disorder at all. Just because I don't process information in exactly the same way as the majority of people, does that mean I'm 'suffring from a disorder'? No. And it doesn't mean that for anybody else as well.

I agree totally. Some of the greatest men and women in history had ADD. Einstein had ADD. (I think) Mozart had ADD. Large number of euntrepeneurs had ADD. It has some MAJOR advantages. However there are some bloody irritating disadvantages!

Oh, and a picture for all of you:

(damn isn't working. I'm going to stop bothering now, in fine tradition of ADDers ;) )

I do both. I have two modes of operation; Intense concentration, and wide-angle thinking. I have found uses for both. People who 'don't focus on anything' are, in fact, thinking too many different things. Our minds are racing and jumping tracks of thought at reckless rates. Makes it very difficult to prioritize on a specific set of tasks, but it is excellent for intuitive leaps of judgement.

For instance, I have taught myself to pay attention to one thing at a time, and to jump tracks to a different think that needs my attention and back again. What I can't do is concentrate on a series of related things without taking in everything around me. That's why when I drive, I don't listen to the radio or have a conversation. I have to make sure that everything around me has somethng to do with driving. I drive very well because I see everything that's gong on and can react with incredible speed(an advantage of ADD) but I drive terribly and am badly distracted when I have the radio on or someone talking to me when I'm driving( a disadvantage)
I end up simular. I either can get distrated by anything and cannot consentrate, or I over do it and won't notice anything else. And I mean to the point where I once walked into traffic not noticing the oncoming car, or the horns, or the yelling, or...

After that I wasn't allowed to read and walk any more. ^_^;;

And I would agree with you that too many are being diagnosed when the problem lies elsewhere (or the problem is, as Smunkeeville noted, the kid's a three-year-old boy). The find line comes from finding those who actually DO have it, and those who are just active.
yeah, and just because a kid doesn't have ADD/ADDHD doesn't mean they are fine either. The autoimmune disorder my kids have can have ADD-type symptoms, so can various types of mental illness, and even food allergies. I would much rather parents figure out exactly what is wrong with thier kid than put them on what they think is a "miracle drug". Sure, it may help them for a little bit, even if they don't have ADD/ADDHD but it has side effects some of which will make thier real condition worse.

Some parents think that it's automatic, or the school's responsibility to teach their child everything.

How to stay on a subject or task for a reasonable amount of time.
How to share.
How to play a game without cheating or getting upset.
How to know when you need a break.
How to make friends.

The list goes on.

It is the parents' responsibility to do this - not by beating their children or denigrating them verbally - it's done by close example - by being right there on the floor with them.

I get a lot of mileage out of that sort of relationship with my children.

I think we just need people to see these drugs as a LAST resort, for children whose lives are being disrupted by their condition. Mild hyperactivity is not a disability, and learning to cope with it gives these kids some valuable lessons in self-control.

Also, all ADD is not hyperactive. Some children (and adults) are inattentive ADD (ADD/ID), and instead of acting up when they get overloaded, they zone out and retreat into themselves. These are the kids IMO that seriously need to be watched out for, since they don't call attention to themselves and squeakier wheels tend to get all the grease. They just fall through the cracks, and can be mislabeled as slow learners or as disinterested in learning.

I end up simular. I either can get distrated by anything and cannot consentrate, or I over do it and won't notice anything else. And I mean to the point where I once walked into traffic not noticing the oncoming car, or the horns, or the yelling, or...

After that I wasn't allowed to read and walk any more. ^_^;;

With time, practice and understanding of your limitations, you can learn to concentrate on two things at once. Or three, or four.

It's like firing off a series of guns in sequence. You give a few seconds thought to task 1, then task 2, task 3, task 4 and then task 1 again. You learn out of habit to focus on these tasks in sequence as you do your job.

That's how I deal blackjack. There are several things I have to concentrate on without getting distracted and I taught myself to quickly shift from one to the next. Works pretty good as long as something doesn't insinuate itself into my train of thought. If I manage to get distracted, I enter wide-angle mode and I stay distracted long enough to really mess things up. :p Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.

Sequential thinking doesn't work well for critical tasks like driving. It's not enough to toggle rapidly between tasks. That's why I drive in wide-angle mode and eliminate distractions.

Depends on the student in question. Some kids really do NOT need to be on it. For me, it helped me actually focus in school till I could build my own self control *The wonders of growing up... er, sort of. :p *.
Although there's a difference between a doctor prescribing it after a careful evaluation and people just asking for it because it's like the 'in' thing to do. A lot of doctors will simply prescribe it because the parents ask for it, without even taking a good long examination of their patient.

What happened to just finding extenuating physical activities for children?

With time, practice and understanding of your limitations, you can learn to concentrate on two things at once. Or three, or four.

It's like firing off a series of guns in sequence. You give a few seconds thought to task 1, then task 2, task 3, task 4 and then task 1 again. You learn out of habit to focus on these tasks in sequence as you do your job.

That's how I deal blackjack. There are several things I have to concentrate on without getting distracted and I taught myself to quickly shift from one to the next. Works pretty good as long as something doesn't insinuate itself into my train of thought. If I manage to get distracted, I enter wide-angle mode and I stay distracted long enough to really mess things up. :p Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.

Sequential thinking doesn't work well for critical tasks like driving. It's not enough to toggle rapidly between tasks. That's why I drive in wide-angle mode and eliminate distractions.
For me, I entered into a profession that requiers me to be on wide mode all the time in order to deal with 30 seperate children at the same time.

It is all about how you learn to cope, as with all learning disabilities. It isn't a free pass, nor is it a block, you just have to work a wee bit harder than others at times.

great thread everyone - i was a bit concerned at first, but it's turned into a great discussion.

I'm new here, but had to get my two-cents in on this one.

The concept of medicating children is seeming to be more and more common in our schools. It scares me. I'm not claiming that it's not a necessity for some children to be medicated - I've known three children who have been diagnosed and medicated and it has made a HUGE difference. With these children however, they were in defnite need of drugs - they had gone through therapy, their parents had taken parenting classes, they had a ton of parent-child quality time - basically everything else had failed miserably. On the drugs, all of them were still healthy happy active children but could focus and were manageable.

On the other hand, I have known several children who have been drugged just because the parents dno't want to deal with them. I have a friend who's 8 year old was put on Ritalin a year ago because the teachers couldn't deal with him and the parents couldn't either. Not a surprise considering that the most interaction he gets with his parents is "come and eat your supper" "be quiet, I'm watching tv". Any time I would visit and talk to him he was a completely different child, but instead of recognizing this, the parents would tell him to go play the computer, and not bother the adults.

In some cases the drugs are worthwhile - everyone else should be forced to take parenting classes - or better yet, just make people get licenses to have children. LOL

Although there's a difference between a doctor prescribing it after a careful evaluation and people just asking for it because it's like the 'in' thing to do. A lot of doctors will simply prescribe it because the parents ask for it, without even taking a good long examination of their patient.

What happened to just finding extenuating physical activities for children?
What, and drag these kids away from the computer and the Playstation (Yes, I know I am a hypocrite there... ;) ).

As a teacher, I can understand the frustation as I have a few kids in my classes that will NOT stop disrupting classes. Some are, I suspect, ADHD or ADD and it is frustrating to know that no matter how much I attempt to stick their noses to the grindstone, it isn't going to work.

Other though, especially hearing of their home lives...

The problem with teaching is that I can't fix that.

In some cases the drugs are worthwhile - everyone else should be forced to take parenting classes - or better yet, just make people get licenses to have children. LOL
not fair. oh wait you added "LOL", because I was going to say, if they made you get a license to have kids I probably wouldn't have been allowed to have any, and my kids are super great. :D

oh and welcome. ;)

In some cases the drugs are worthwhile - everyone else should be forced to take parenting classes - or better yet, just make people get licenses to have children. LOL

My goodness, you think that too! I just don't understand, people who want to adopt have to be checked out and made sure that they can be good parents, but if you want to become a parent, all you have to do is have sex. It seems strange that there is a higher standard for the exact same thing.

not fair. oh wait you added "LOL", because I was going to say, if they made you get a license to have kids I probably wouldn't have been allowed to have any, and my kids are super great. :D
Sometimes though, I start thinking how wonderful that would be.

Then I realize that the only practical test is to actually have a kid so... ;)

I just love the bit in a Simpsons episode where they put Bart on Ritalin (it's called something else, but it's obviously Ritalin) and the scientist says how effective it is in controlling hyperactivity and provides focus and concentration. She then says that it's the best form of controlling hyperactivity there is, aside from regular exercise.

And when you see how lazy and unfit most kids are these days, and how much they're discouraged from playing outside or in team sports, is it any wonder there's a growing problem of hyperactive kids in the classroom.

Some parents think that it's automatic, or the school's responsibility to teach their child everything.

I get a lot of mileage out of that sort of relationship with my children.
As did I. My kids ( the youngest of whom is now 34! ) still bring up some of the things we use to do. I took them camping, hiking, etc. And I use to play with them on the floor when they were little. Sometimes I would hold their momma down and let them tickle her! They loved that, although she had a bit of a problem with it at times. :D

Sometimes though, I start thinking how wonderful that would be.

Then I realize that the only practical test is to actually have a kid so... ;)
yeah, I always wonder when people say that what requirements they think people should have before they can have a kid.


Smunkee-
former drug addict
frequently suspended from high school
no college degree



yeah, I don't see too many of them giving me a "kid license" but my kids are fine, it doesn't really matter what you do before you have kids, what matters is what you do after you have them. ;)

What happened to just finding extenuating physical activities for children?
It's a little boy thing, and as we all know, little boys simply don't learn as well as little girls. [/Sarcasm] :rolleyes:

For me, I entered into a profession that requiers me to be on wide mode all the time in order to deal with 30 seperate children at the same time.

It is all about how you learn to cope, as with all learning disabilities. It isn't a free pass, nor is it a block, you just have to work a wee bit harder than others at times.
I just found something I absolutly love and requires me to concentrate intensly on one subject for extended periods of time

Its an asset when you have to be obsessive about details (computer field)

This just makes me worry even more. I lived within the Honors Community at my college last year, and during both midterms and finals (two semesters in a row) people were passing around Adderol(please correct my spelling, as I have not seen the name of the drug written out) around like it was candy. People were BEGGING for it.

Others were following me around like stray dogs because I had coffee. I strangely have a little more sympathy for them...

I'm not sufficiently acquainted with ADHD to respond intelligently to this.

That explains why your attack on Ritalin is like that. Funny how you can know so little about the disorder, but feel so "informed" as to denounce part of its treatment. :rolleyes:

DRUGS ARE NOT THE ANSWER!!!

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. I certainly wouldn't put my kid on any sort of mind altering medication. The only medication kids need is the odd antibiotic to kill off the odd injection they get. If your grandson is a bit more hyperactive than other kids, and his parents would certainly know better than his teachers, they should try alternative methods first, like cutting down on sugar in his diet, more veggies and fresh fruit. If he's just a naturally playful/fidgety child, he'll grow out of it in time. Teachers know nothing about the children they teach, thankfully your own kids have more sense than to take this ridiculous comment to heart.

I just love the bit in a Simpsons episode where they put Bart on Ritalin (it's called something else, but it's obviously Ritalin) and the scientist says how effective it is in controlling hyperactivity and provides focus and concentration. She then says that it's the best form of controlling hyperactivity there is, aside from regular exercise.

And when you see how lazy and unfit most kids are these days, and how much they're discouraged from playing outside or in team sports, is it any wonder there's a growing problem of hyperactive kids in the classroom.


Yeah I saw that one recently. They called it Focusyn. The end of the episode, they took him off the stuff:
Marge: "No more Focusyn for you! It's back to good old Ritalin!"
...sigh...

I think Ritalin is probably the most over-prescribed drug available to young people these days.
The quick and easy answer to restless kids.

I know several people who have taken it, some needed it, some didnt.
When I was in school, it was just before Ritalin became truly popular, and Im sure I would have been diagnosed with ADD OR ADDHD, or whatever, as would most boys my age back then.

I feel the same way about Ritalin as I do anti-depressants.
They can be useful to many people, but are way too over-prescribed, and are too often used as a crutch for sloppy parenting, or lack of self-discipline.

Sometimes I suspect that all these "diagnoses" are little more than an attempt to clinicise normal differences between people. Just because, for example, little boys tend to be more active than little girls does not mean that they have an "illness."

I agree.

That, and ADD and ADHD seem to be "illnesses" that literally *did not exist* a few years back, seems like some psychologist just invented them for a thesis paper and it made it into the DSM-IV. Too many psychiatrists diagnose people with too many "disorders" anyway. Especially "personality disorders."

There's not enough sport played in schools these days. The curriculum should include at least one hour of PE everyday. I think that would go a long way towards calming the kids down.

Kids need a lot of excercise, the sedentary nature of school is obviously going to exacerbate these problems.

(Though I daresay, some kids do need ritalin also.)

The effects of a double blind, placebo controlled, artificial food colourings and benzoate preservative challenge on hyperactivity in a general population sample of preschool children (http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/89/6/506)


Perhaps it's not the sugar in the candy that makes the little children hyperactive, maybe it's the artificial food coloring...

I was pretty much on the vanguard of the Ritalin generation. I was on Dexadrine from about 5 to about 9 myself. Unfortunately, I didn't have ADD, and the doctor didn't really have a solution to my increasingly erratic behavior other than "Increase his dosage". Needless to say, I spent most of elementary school acting as most people do when they are hooked on amphetamines: I rarely ate, my behavior was wildly erratic and violent, and I had somewhat stunted growth as a result.

I think that a major part of the problem isn't necessarily that parents need to better discipline their children or that children are more delinquent than in the past, but that in many ways we are asking our children to do something fundamentally unnatural. Even the best behaved six-year old boy is going to get restless and uncomfortable after about 30 minutes of sitting around. We ask them to sit still for eight hours. We don't give them a chance to run around at school, we don't let them run around in the front yard after school, we don't let them run around after dark, etc. Our entire culture is built around keeping our children tightly confined and enclosed where they can do no harm and get into no trouble, yet we wonder why kids start acting wierd and aberrant in class. This is especially true in boys, which makes it unsurprising to me that boys are the majority of referrals for medication and the majority of children with developmental disabilities.

i think ritalin has almost become neccesarry in todays world becoming less and less active. it does seem todays youth doesnt get the discipline it should, and in some cases it because the generation bringing up todays youth also did not get the discipline.

(btw, discipline doesnt always mean hitting, spanking, smacking, whatever you want to call it)

It's medication for teachers and parents. Let the kid sleep. Give him or her plenty of loving attention. Gave the child a sane home invirament. The symptoms will go away in a month or two.

ADHD and Ritalin are a communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids. :mad:

On a more serious note, the problem of kids acting like dumbasses would be solved in large part by not feeding them utter crap (especially refined sugars) and ensuring plenty of exercise (ie to the point of exhaustion most days of the week).

Sorted.

I have a friend with a 3 year old, she thought he was "too hyper" so she took him to his Dr. who said he had ADD. I personally was worried about the diagnosis, since it was the first time that Dr. had seen him, and he only saw him for about 10 minutes. When she asked me for advice I told her I thought she should have her child see a neurologist before putting him on Ritalin (you know since he was only 3!) so she did, she is now pissed at me because the neurologist found nothing wrong with him, no ADD, no autism, nothing. He said that part of his problem is that he is a 3 year old boy, and the other is that his mom doesn't set limits and follow through. She doesn't speak to me anymore.

This is the problem right here, I think. Some doctors are very quick to label everything ADD or ADHD and just prescribe Ritalin immediately. How many kids out there are on drugs that don't need to be? Meanwhile, parents have started using it as a way to dope up kids that are simply being kids. I knew a guy in middle/high school who avoided taking his Ritalin (or something similar) like the plague, but his mother would make him take it occasionally when she found out he wasn't. I ran into him in the store at one point while he was on it, and he literally looked drugged out to me - he was lethargic and slow - not like him at all. Yeah, he was a hyper guy, but being hyper wasn't interferring with his schooling at all, so why the hell try to keep him on it. On another note, in his crazier days (he's completely sober and off all drugs now - even prescription ones), he got in the habit during college of trading his Ritalin for cocaine.

My brother was truly ADD. He couldn't concentrate in school - any little thing would distract him, and his mind wanders all the time. We did eventually have him on Ritalin, but here's the thing - only when he needed it! He didn't take it on the weekends, holidays, or during the summer, because he wasn't doing schoolwork, which is what he needed the extra help in concentrating for.

My stepbrother, on the other hand, was just a hyper kid. He had an insane amount of energy and loved to run around basically getting on everyone's nerves, despite the discipline he received. You wouldn't believe how many people suggested Ritalin for him - as if they were armchair doctors. He didn't need ADD, he just needed a way to get all his energy and aggression out. I'm glad my stepfather didn't rush to put him on drugs.

Ritalin is one of the two drugs I consider to be horribly abused by society.
There are kids out there, where virtually nothing else works, and others where Ritalin is an important part of therapy, but there are way more (sorry, no links to back it up, too lazy after 52 hours without sleep ;) ) situations where it´s simply the easiest way out for all the parties concerned.

In case someone wonders what other drug I referred to:
Pfizer´s Blue Devil Of Macho Immortality :cool:

I think children should be given spoonfuls of Laudanum before being put down for a nap evry day. If it was good enough for Byron and Shelley, surely it's good enough for Junior.

Yeah, sure. Eut's knee-jerk, uniformed responses about little boys and lack of discipline are right. The Surgeon General of the United States, American Medical Association (AMA), National Institutes of Health (NIH), Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (AACAP), the Mayo Clinic, and an international consensus of over 100 scientists are all wrong.

The Science of AD/HD (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/science)

It drives me crazy how many people feel free to speak from ignorance on the topic of AD/HD.

Myths and Misconceptions About AD/HD (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/myths)

(BTW, so they have to put a warning label on Ritalin. So? They put warning labels on essentially all drugs. Eut's "vindication" has nothing to do with whether ADD exists, needs treatment by drugs, etc.)

So how come there is an epidemic of this all of the sudden? In the past, if kids were difficult, you showed them what was what. Moral fibre, that was the ticket. A certain strength of character developed with the help of exercise, a healthy low-sugar diet and respect for authority figures.

ADHD is easy to diagnose when the kid is on a 24/7 sugar rollercoaster, not expending enough energy, going through puberty FFS and doesn't give a fuck about the school management, or his/her parents when they tell him/her to respect it.

I'm with Eutrusca on this one. It looks like a manufactured condition, nice and convenient for the medical and educational establishments, but in truth resulting from an unhealthy lifestyle, teenage hormones and an above-average attitude problem. Always easier to hand out pills rather than effect social change.

I'm glad we haven't gone down this road in Europe. I went to school with some really difficult kids, but better for them to work it out for themselves, than drug them into denial.

Ungh, we're a pill-popping nation. We need to realize that pills aren't a cure-all for your troubles!

That stuff nearly could of killed me when I was on it during elementary school. I was 20 pounds underweight or something, didn't do a thing in school because, as the drugs advertise, energy is sucked from your very being, (At least it was sucked from me, and then some) never allowed me to have an appetite, made me extremely depressed, (But only when I was actually taking it) and generally was awful to me. Yet no, apparently my behavior was still "unnaceptable" to my school, as the doctor doubled my dosage when my behavior did not meet the standards so to speak. The sad part is, I was so increadibly young, I bought into what they were telling me about my "behavior" and took advantage of it once to get out of trouble for biting a kid in day care who stole almost all of my lincoln logs, since I had not taken my Ritalin or whatever it was for the day. (I switched medicines sometimes to some blue pill) I noticed on an MSN site debunking "Myths" of ADHD and Ritalin's effects, that medicine like Ritalin supposedly did not cause children to use it as an excuse.....if this wasn't such a horrible and dangerous lie, it would be quite amusing. This situation is indeed serious, the extreme use of dangerous drugs like Ritalin will literally ruin a person's childhood if they are used as behavioral modification, they could of come close to ruining me for sure, I say this out of total personal experience. Whenever I wasn't on the stuff, I was relatively happy for someone who did not know Christ, and had a good amount of energy in me. Apparently, however, this was not something any of my teachers either understood or generally cared about, as I often got bad conduct grades, much to the annoyance of my dad.

The truly sad part which demonstrates how it is true that it is most definently part fault of the school system somehow is that one week, I actually decided to see if I could get above an "N" in conduct, and I was not on Ritalin at all I think. I tried as hard as I had ever tried to get a good conduct grade before that week. Even looking back years later, I still find my teachers decision to give me my first "U" compleatly and utterly ridiculous, and what was most cruel about the situation is the counselor kept telling me through my tears that no, my dad wouldn't be nearly as mad at me as he told me he would be if I got another "N", it would be all right in the end. It was most assuredly not, I won't go into the details, but suffice to say, it was at least partly the systems fault that an extraordinarly bad experience indeed came my way after getting home, and I was told an outright lie by them, and labelled a problem where none existed except in the minds of those who so willingly will judge others with no idea of the consequences of such sterotyping and dismissal. Ordinarily, I don't like shifting blame to other people for things that involve me because, well, most of the time it actually does end up being my fault unless its something that people are clearly biased on, but when it gets me in as much trouble as I got in even when I gave the best possible effort in school I had probably ever given to behaving good without drugs to date, I have no choice but to give a big vote "no" to use of ritalin for anything. Hyperactivity is no disease, I don't care how much people complain that it is impossible to handle, I apparently had such a disease which required double the recommended dosage of Ritalin for a time according to my doctor, and whenever I was off the stuff, I played video games, I ran around outside, I read in school to get points for the accelerated reader program, and sure I might of given my teachers a wee bit of grief now and then, (Ok, maybe slightly more than that, I don't exactly remember too well.) but despite any and all supposed evidence to the contrary, it was no disease, don't let anyone fool you about that. You can use up all that supposedly diseased energy, I know I sure did whenever I was being told it couldn't be, and the sad thing was, I was so young and impressionable and without a purpose, that I bought into it hook, line and sinker. I was by no means a very distrusting child of the school system, my teachers, or my doctor....though I did occasionaly not take the Ritalin, my teachers would notice that I wasn't sleeping or drugged looking all day, and would make me own up to the truth. (Though sometimes, my mom was surprisingly understanding, and she told me when I was much older that Ritalin really did nothing good for me.)

In the end, my parents and my doctor apparently had enough, as of course, I was quite literally dying from having an extreme lack of weight. It took me years to actually get back to normal on the weight curve, about 6 or so. So in summary, thanks for nothing Ritalin, you did not help me learn anything, you did not help me live, you did not help me grow, and most importantly, you could do nothing but discourage me from seeking the truth of Jesus Christ when I could of learned it earlier, it's very difficult to accept Christ into one's heart when they have been drugged into submission most of the week.

Sorry my rant was so long, it's just i've never really gotten to get this all out into the open much before, I never even realized until much, much later that this stuff could of caused me to never become a Christian if it had done permanent damage to me, and considering how much I was on and how long I took it, I don't think it's too outrageous of me to suggest it may of very well been a miracle I was not permanently scarred enough to not be able to recognize Christ when I did.

So how come there is an epidemic of this all of the sudden?
the fact that it's diagnosed more often now doesn't really prove that it's over-diagnosed. There are a lot of diseases that are being diagnosed more often now, because doctors know more about them, I hate to go back to it, but the disease my girls have Celiac disease is being diagnosed more in the last 10 years than ever before, people had it before then, but they were either accused of "making it up", having eating disorders, or misdiagnosed as having Crohn's or IBS.

I worry that children aren't getting a correct diagnosis, from what I understand (from family with ADD) you can only be truly diagnosed through CAT scan or similar test, people with ADD have differences in thier brain, it's not a "made up disorder" or a discipline problem, but kids with discipline problems are getting diagnosed by doctors who aren't willing to find out what's really going on. That's my own experience of course and probably doesn't "prove" anything either.

Yech, Ritalin be nasty stuff.
My parents guilt-tripped me into taking it when I was in Middle School, worst three years of my life. It gave me a nasty headache, which the doctor informed my parents (while ignoring me) was psychosomatic. Yup, all in my head. Har di har har.

I worry that children aren't getting a correct diagnosis, from what I understand (from family with ADD) you can only be truly diagnosed through CAT scan or similar test, people with ADD have differences in thier brain, it's not a "made up disorder" or a discipline problem, but kids with discipline problems are getting diagnosed by doctors who aren't willing to find out what's really going on. That's my own experience of course and probably doesn't "prove" anything either.
Well that would explain the apparent massive increase, wouldn't it? People saying "Well, we can't be bothered doing the right tests, but never mind, have some powerful mood-altering drugs anyway."

Well that would explain the apparent massive increase, wouldn't it? People saying "Well, we can't be bothered doing the right tests, but never mind, have some powerful mood-altering drugs anyway."
you ever been to wrongdiagnosis.com (http://wrongdiagnosis.com/a/attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder/misdiag.htm)? that site is enough to scare the crap out of me.

Yech, Ritalin be nasty stuff.
My parents guilt-tripped me into taking it when I was in Middle School, worst three years of my life. It gave me a nasty headache, which the doctor informed my parents (while ignoring me) was psychosomatic. Yup, all in my head. Har di har har.
Yeah, I remember my mother trying to convince me in elementary school to take it (though she remembers otherwise). Thank God I never ended up going on it :mad:

you ever been to wrongdiagnosis.com (http://wrongdiagnosis.com/a/attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder/misdiag.htm)? that site is enough to scare the crap out of me.
Just took a look. I particularly like how one symptom, irritability, is classed as "normal teen behaviour". Like, no shit. :rolleyes:

Just took a look. I particularly like how one symptom, irritability, is classed as "normal teen behaviour". Like, no shit. :rolleyes:
I found myself one day looking up everything I had ever been diagnosed with before, it gave me a headache, either I am fine or really really sick :p

I think that a major part of the problem isn't necessarily that parents need to better discipline their children or that children are more delinquent than in the past, but that in many ways we are asking our children to do something fundamentally unnatural. Even the best behaved six-year old boy is going to get restless and uncomfortable after about 30 minutes of sitting around. We ask them to sit still for eight hours. We don't give them a chance to run around at school, we don't let them run around in the front yard after school, we don't let them run around after dark, etc. Our entire culture is built around keeping our children tightly confined and enclosed where they can do no harm and get into no trouble, yet we wonder why kids start acting wierd and aberrant in class. This is especially true in boys, which makes it unsurprising to me that boys are the majority of referrals for medication and the majority of children with developmental disabilities.
My point exactly.

I am continuously dismayed at the siamese twin relationship between many medical practitioners and the pharmaceutical industry. Many, if not most, physicians seem to have become little more than sophisticated pill-pushers as a result of the various "incentives" offered by the pill-builders. Conduct all the studies you like, when it comes down to it ( as several recent, high-profile cases have demonstrated ) the long-term effects of new pharmaceuticals cannot be accurately assessed over broad populations. Our children are the ultimate recipients of this symbiosis between pill-builders and pill-pushers.

Here ... have some drugs. :rolleyes:

Here ... have some drugs. :rolleyes:
They really need to revamp the Just Say No campaign, to feature parents and teachers.

"Winners Don't Do Drugs."

Yech, Ritalin be nasty stuff.
My parents guilt-tripped me into taking it when I was in Middle School, worst three years of my life. It gave me a nasty headache, which the doctor informed my parents (while ignoring me) was psychosomatic. Yup, all in my head. Har di har har.


o yea....im guilt triped into taking somthing ritlin-like every day...it sucks... it bugs me cuz i can tell it doesnt do anything at all exept make me want to sleep during math class...but the dr who prescibed it says he sees a "big" change...because i complain about taking it rather than just sighlently sulk about taking medicine....oo huge change

So how come there is an epidemic of this all of the sudden? In the past, if kids were difficult, you showed them what was what. Moral fibre, that was the ticket. A certain strength of character developed with the help of exercise, a healthy low-sugar diet and respect for authority figures.

ADHD is easy to diagnose when the kid is on a 24/7 sugar rollercoaster, not expending enough energy, going through puberty FFS and doesn't give a fuck about the school management, or his/her parents when they tell him/her to respect it.

I'm with Eutrusca on this one. It looks like a manufactured condition, nice and convenient for the medical and educational establishments, but in truth resulting from an unhealthy lifestyle, teenage hormones and an above-average attitude problem. Always easier to hand out pills rather than effect social change.

I'm glad we haven't gone down this road in Europe. I went to school with some really difficult kids, but better for them to work it out for themselves, than drug them into denial.
[ applauds! ] :)

I remember back in school when I was in 1st grade they attempted to put me on riddlin. That time my mother fought against it and I was kept free of the stuff. They attempted to do so again in 11th grade, practically threatening me that if I didn't take it I would be booted out. This time I took the initiative and told them where they can put thier pill. Apparently they thought I could not function without/ be a good person without it. Funny, now I work as a full time flight instructor/corperate pilot... all without touching one bit of riddlin.

[ applauds! ] :)
Rare moments indeed. :)

snip

This is the ritalin I see.

Soorry to hear about that. Interesting chilhood story thanks for sharing