NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11226144/
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060117-121930-3169r.htm

This recently came to my attention not but a day ago, and I must say I am nothing less the taken aback. If any part of this report is even remotely true, the entire dynamic by which we consider the Mexcian governments position on boarder is forever altered. Given the mere diplomatic tone of this article to me signals to me that there is much more that the American public has yet to see in this matter.

If Mexican military forces are crossing our boarder, we can no longer stand by and accept the sad nature of our boarder control. It is one thing to stand back and balk at the number of mexicans running from their own state, but when military officers presume to have the audacity to infringe on our sovergnty as well, then it is surely time to close the board and come to hard terms with an out of control Mexican authority.

What do you think of this revelation ?

Sounds like a chance to annex ourselves some more Manifest Destiny.

Come on, border incursions occur every day between most nations.

Come on, border incursions occur every day between most nations.

As part of organized drug smuggling operations?

Sounds like a chance to annex ourselves some more Manifest Destiny.

MANIFEST DESTINY, YEEHAW!

Seriously, though, it sounds like we should up the Border Patrol from being a para-military organization to a full-fledged member of the armed forces. And if the Mexicans try it again, we bitch to Mexico City. If they do nothing about it, we plant a smart bomb on every single Mexican military installation within driving distance of the border.

Come on, border incursions occur every day between most nations.
Yeah specialy when the US is involved

Come on, border incursions occur every day between most nations.

Over the Past 4 years, it is belived over 200 incursions have occured... In some cases its reported (From Arizona officals) gun fire is exchanged. We should not even tolerate SOME incursions. If the boarder is so poorely marked it should then be rectified.. its not just a matter of incursions, but you will read in those articles it is belived that some or many of these "military officers" are in fact helping durg trafficing..

And dont forget, this is comming as Mexican agencies supply illegal immigrants with MAPS of our boarders highlighting poitns to rest, water and openings to better facilitate reaching cities. Where is the Mexican governments responsibility here ?!!?

I'd love to see this escalate into a second Mexican-American war. :rolleyes:

Over the Past 4 years, it is belived over 200 incursions have occured... In some cases its reported (From Arizona officals) gun fire is exchanged. We should not even tolerate SOME incursions. If the boarder is so poorely marked it should then be rectified.. its not just a matter of incursions, but you will read in those articles it is belived that some or many of these "military officers" are in fact helping durg trafficing..

Like the article says, most of the incursions are innocuous, and occur between all nations frequently. What should stop are the organized invasions for drug smuggling purposes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11226144/
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060117-121930-3169r.htm

This recently came to my attention not but a day ago, and I must say I am nothing less the taken aback. If any part of this report is even remotely true, the entire dynamic by which we consider the Mexcian governments position on boarder is forever altered. Given the mere diplomatic tone of this article to me signals to me that there is much more that the American public has yet to see in this matter.

If Mexican military forces are crossing our boarder, we can no longer stand by and accept the sad nature of our boarder control. It is one thing to stand back and balk at the number of mexicans running from their own state, but when military officers presume to have the audacity to infringe on our sovergnty as well, then it is surely time to close the board and come to hard terms with an out of control Mexican authority.

What do you think of this revelation ?

You can't close the border, the border has been closed for decades. There hasnt been an open border policy with Mexico in our lifetimes.

Solutions:

-Legalize marijuana.
-Transfer some attack helicopters and crews from the Army and/or the Marine Corps into the Border Patrol.
-Increase the Border Patrol's yearly budget.
-Attach to the Border Patrol detachments of mechanized infantry from the Army and/or Marine Corps.

Solutions:

-Legalize marijuana.
-Transfer some attack helicopters and crews from the Army and/or the Marine Corps into the Border Patrol.
-Increase the Border Patrol's yearly budget.
-Attach to the Border Patrol detachments of mechanized infantry from the Army and/or Marine Corps.

They're not smuggling pot....

Sounds like a chance to annex ourselves some more Manifest Destiny.

Ah you smart fuck, you think you are funny dont yea?

Well maybe you don't remember why you didn't steal the whole country, because of the populated states would be so much trouble to handle, so you only stole the inhabited north.

Maybe you can have a good time exterminating our culture.

=)

Ah you smart fuck, you think you are funny dont yea?

Well maybe you don't remember why you didn't steal the whole country, because of the populated states would be so much trouble to handle, so you only stole the inhabited north.

Maybe you can have a good time exterminating our culture.

=)

Touchy touchy, it was a condemnation of the United States.

They're not smuggling pot....

So? Who said the legalization of marijuana had anything to do with what the Mexican Army is smuggling?

Ah you smart fuck, you think you are funny dont yea?

Well maybe you don't remember why you didn't steal the whole country, because of the populated states would be so much trouble to handle, so you only stole the inhabited north.

Maybe you can have a good time exterminating our culture.

=)

If you take everything so literally on this forum, you're going to have an interesting time here. The U.S. of A isn't the first nation forged through bloodshed and conquest, and it won't be the last.

Like the article says, most of the incursions are innocuous, and occur between all nations frequently. What should stop are the organized invasions for drug smuggling purposes.

While its true, yes, probabl most of those incursions are innocuous, its quite telling to see evidence that in some cases (even 1 year should be considered intolerable) military forces are found to be aiding and abedting drug trafficing.. This to me signals a reality that military officals are more loyal to the drug lords in mexico then to the Mexican government.

Mind you this also comes as the Mexican government is lobying our own government, and opposing laws passed by indvidiual states attempting to control boarder flow.

So? Who said the legalization of marijuana had anything to do with what the Mexican Army is smuggling?

I just don't see how legalizing marijuana would stop these border incursions.

I just don't see how legalizing marijuana would stop these border incursions.

No, but if everyone smoked more, they probably wouldn't care as much about it.

I think it worth noting here that this problem is so bad that there's a couple of drug/refugee routes that go underground into tunnels through the border... and empty out right onto Fort Huachuca, Arizona, which is home to the US Army Intelligence School. Add in the fact that a good chunk of the Mexican military is in on this...

Maybe it's just me, but I think we should identify some good sites and have some infantry (or at least MPs in full battle-rattle) ambush a few of these teams. See what happens.

Ah you smart fuck, you think you are funny dont yea?

Well maybe you don't remember why you didn't steal the whole country, because of the populated states would be so much trouble to handle, so you only stole the inhabited north.

Maybe you can have a good time exterminating our culture.

=)


Just so you know your history. Here is a link on the start of the Mexican American war. This details how Mexico started it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War

I just don't see how legalizing marijuana would stop these border incursions.

It's easy: when you arrest the gents of the Mexican Army pulling this shit, you throw them in jail. In sealed area, where you make them smell marijuana smoke 24/7, with short breaks to go to the bathroom and eat. Other than that it should keep them sedated and they'll get drummed out of the MA pretty damn fast when their marijuana habit starts to interfere with them running drugs across the border. :p

I think it worth noting here that this problem is so bad that there's a couple of drug/refugee routes that go underground into tunnels through the border... and empty out right onto Fort Huachuca, Arizona, which is home to the US Army Intelligence School. Add in the fact that a good chunk of the Mexican military is in on this...

Maybe it's just me, but I think we should identify some good sites and have some infantry (or at least MPs in full battle-rattle) ambush a few of these teams. See what happens.

Just be sure to tell them to keep their safeties off. Or let them keep them on. A few dead GIs killed by Mexican soldiers on US soil might actually get the government to do something about it.

I read about this event shortly after it happened.


Only the story I read included the fact that US Military style Humvees were involved (the cargo from the stranded SUV's was loaded into them) and that Mexican authorities hinted that they believe American forces were involved. The Mexicans were actually indignant about US incursions into their territory. A statement from US sources was included claiming that US incursions into Mexico, while happening somewhat regularly, were usually by accident. They also denied involvement in the incident.

I read about this event shortly after it happened.


Only the story I read included the fact that US Military style Humvees were involved (the cargo from the stranded SUV's was loaded into them) and that Mexican authorities hinted that they believe American forces were involved. The Mexicans were actually indignant about US incursions into their territory. A statement from US sources was included claiming that US incursions into Mexico, while happening somewhat regularly, were usually by accident. They also denied involvement in the incident.

Humvees are pretty much used by everyone on the Continent... their use here shouldn't be surprising. That and there's a rather large difference between a Mexican uniform and an American uniform: the American one has camouflage, while the Mexican one is simple OD (if memory serves).

I read about this event shortly after it happened.


Only the story I read included the fact that US Military style Humvees were involved (the cargo from the stranded SUV's was loaded into them) and that Mexican authorities hinted that they believe American forces were involved. The Mexicans were actually indignant about US incursions into their territory. A statement from US sources was included claiming that US incursions into Mexico, while happening somewhat regularly, were usually by accident. They also denied involvement in the incident.

Realistically, you have to wonder what's going on. The US also shares a huge land border with canada, which is largely un-patrolled and poorly marked. I am sure that there are 'technical' incursions all the time along its length, yet no-one cares.

How did it get to the state where the southern border has to be millitarized, and both sides are pointing the finger at each other and claiming 'incursions.' It's like something between India and Pakistan.

I know the proximate reasons - illegal immigration, drug smuggling &c. But for the life of me, I can't figure out the ultimate ones. How did both countries allow the relationship to devolve so much, so quickly.

Humvees are pretty much used by everyone on the Continent... their use here shouldn't be surprising. That and there's a rather large difference between a Mexican uniform and an American uniform: the American one has camouflage, while the Mexican one is simple OD (if memory serves).
The Mexican Army has a variety of uniforms for a variety of tasks, just like the US does. Humvees and military style vehicles, weapons, and uniforms, are easy to get, especially on the US side by just about anybody.

The Mexican governmet denies involvement of the Army in this incident, and that's probably true. Armed forces are usually discplined and aware enough to know what this would mean, and they're not stupid.

There are a lot of border incursions from both sides, most of them accidental and that don't merit further action. The US Army and Air Force are known to wonder into Mexican territory and the same happens the other way around. But those are simple mistakes, after all it's a 3000 km border pretty much unmarked.

The US has filed a complain and the Mexican government is carrying out an investigation as to what happened and whether the Army was really involved. So far the US government is satisfied with that response.

The Mexican Army has a variety of uniforms for a variety of tasks, just like the US does. Humvees and military style vehicles, weapons, and uniforms, are easy to get, especially on the US side by just about anybody.

Easy? Yes. Cheap? No.

The Mexican governmet denies involvement of the Army in this incident, and that's probably true. Armed forces are usually discplined and aware enough to know what this would mean, and they're not stupid.

The City of Mexico can't even control most of their cops due to corruption. Why would the army be any better?

The US has filed a complain and the Mexican government is carrying out an investigation as to what happened and whether the Army was really involved. So far the US government is satisfied with that response.

The same government that non-existent links between al-Qaeda and Iraq and non-existent WMD in Iraq to be grounds enough for a rather pointless invasion of a small, pointless banana republic.

Oh brother.

1. We do not know this this really is the Meixcan military. Military uniforms were spotted, but I can get my hands on a US military uniform, it ain't that hard (even in Japan).

2. If this was the real Mexican military making drug runs on the border, again, where's the evidence that the military command or the Mexican goverment ordered this? (I seem to recall a rathe large debate about the actions of some US military troops and how they were not ordered to torture people at a prison in Iraq so it does not reflect upon either the US Goverment or the US Military).

So until we get our hands on one of these guys and find the orders stating this, let's cool down the talk of restarting the Mexico-American War.

Oh brother.

1. We do not know this this really is the Meixcan military. Military uniforms were spotted, but I can get my hands on a US military uniform, it ain't that hard (even in Japan).

The BDUs aren't difficult to get. The AR-15 wouldn't be difficult to get. The Kevlar vest and LBG would be more difficult. And did I mention that Humvees aren't cheap?

2. If this was the real Mexican military making drug runs on the border, again, where's the evidence that the military command or the Mexican goverment ordered this? (I seem to recall a rathe large debate about the actions of some US military troops and how they were not ordered to torture people at a prison in Iraq so it does not reflect upon either the US Goverment or the US Military).

We don't need to see their orders to shoot the sonsabitches as they try to cross the border. Especially after they've opened fire on US Law Enforcement on our side of the border.

Easy? Yes. Cheap? No.
And, of course, drug barons are on a very limited budget.

The City of Mexico can't even control most of their cops due to corruption. Why would the army be any better?
Because they're paid with Federal funds? And because generals and officers receive very intensive education and are well aware of the politics involved? And because soldiers also go through very rigourous training to discipline them?

You do know the difference between a local police corps and a national Army, right?

The same government that non-existent links between al-Qaeda and Iraq and non-existent WMD in Iraq to be grounds enough for a rather pointless invasion of a small, pointless banana republic.
Yup. With a bit over 100 million people, about 2 million sq km in area, a GDP of around 1 trillion dollars, a top-ten crude oil producer and one of the top 2 economies in Latin America, is pretty much irrelevant. I'm sure that you'll do just wonderfully.

And, of course, drug barons are on a very limited budget.

I don't think that the drug lords would resort to that: especially not when they can have the Mexican Army do it for them.

Because they're paid with Federal funds? And because generals and officers receive very intensive education and are well aware of the politics involved? And because soldiers also go through very rigourous training to discipline them?

A well-educated idiot is a greater threat than a poorly educated idiot: like Anne Coulter, for instance.

You do know the difference between a local police corps and a national Army, right?

Yup. And I know that a culture of corruption pervades both in Mexico.

Yup. With a bit over 100 million people, about 2 million sq km in area, a GDP of around 1 trillion dollars, a top-ten crude oil producer and one of the top 2 economies in Latin America, is pretty much irrelevant. I'm sure that you'll do just wonderfully.

Nevermind the fact that relations with them are well enough that we wouldn't need to waste about 1.x trillion dollars over the next decade or so to invade them with the same result.

One thing to remember, drug smuggling makes a lot of money, might I remind you of the 70's in which more that half the $20 bills in the U.S. had passed through the hands of drug cartells and were laced with cocain? (Maybe that's why we were so addicted to money in the 80's?)

Drug cartells can easily afford to fake being military personell, or eat least pay off military officers to "borrow" their gear.

Also I have known many people who were in the US army, trained in the desert near Mexico. One of my favorite stories involves one unit heading out for desert navigational training. They were told to get from one point to another on a map. They were also told "See these rocks on the map? If you can see them you are in Mexico and we can't come to save your ass."
Within 12 hours later they got on the radio.
"Our scouts lost sight of you, what is your position?"
"Well you know those rocks you told us about? Yeah... we're right under them."

Happens fairly often. Fortunately for them they weren't spotted by Mexican forces in the area either since there'd probably be a fire fight. After all, if I were patrolling an area and I saw a couple of APC's rolling into my territory I'd probably try to blow them up as well.

Just showing how a lot of those firefights are accidents.

I don't think that the drug lords would resort to that: especially not when they can have the Mexican Army do it for them.
It is more than a little bit probable that the Army is involved with drug cartels, in fact, that's almost certain. But they often provide protection through the Mexican territory, not into the US territory. Why? Because they know the consequences, and because it's largely not needed, since the drug dealers have their own transportation methods to get them across, which are a lot better.

The Mexican Army wouldn't let themselves get into a fight with the US Border Patrol, they're not idiots. And the first thing they would do if that ever happened would be to return to Mexico, not open fire. Precisely because they would know what an international incident this would be, and that it's the Generals and officers heads that are going to be the first to roll.

Yup. And I know that a culture of corruption pervades both in Mexico.
Yeah, but you don't understand the tranza or the political game behind it.

Nevermind the fact that relations with them are well enough that we wouldn't need to waste about 1.x trillion dollars over the next decade or so to invade them with the same result.
Actually, what would keep the US from invading again, is that half the population are eager to be invaded and annexed. And the other half doesn't really care that much one way or the other.

Just showing how a lot of those firefights are accidents.

It's not an accident when what you're shooting at is a brightly colored Law Enforcement vehicle.

Even if it were a military vehicle, they should know better than to start shooting: it'd be a nice way to start a dumb war.

Happens fairly often. Fortunately for them they weren't spotted by Mexican forces in the area either since there'd probably be a fire fight. After all, if I were patrolling an area and I saw a couple of APC's rolling into my territory I'd probably try to blow them up as well.
Nah, it's not like relationships are like between Pakistan and India. I don't know if people in the US are paranoid or what, but not everybody is trying to get you. Sure, a good chunk are, but not everybody.

Most probably it would have gone like this:
"What happened to you, gringos?"
"We got lost"
"Ha ha ha. Que gringos tan pendejos, me cae. Just go that way, and it's like 10 miles."
"Ok".

And that's it. There's been cases of local police crossing the border chasing after some criminal, weapons drawn, and at a border crossing not the middle of the desert, and all the Mexican authorities have done is just report the incident and send them back. If they can get the criminal, good, but most often there is all that jurisdiction thing getting in the way.

It's not an accident when what you're shooting at is a brightly colored Law Enforcement vehicle.

Even if it were a military vehicle, they should know better than to start shooting: it'd be a nice way to start a dumb war.


Ever been in a fire fight? You're lucky if the first guy that starts shooting is even aware of the fact what he's shooting at has 2 legs and 2 arms let alone wether or not it actually intends to harm you. Sadly most countries have a bad tendancy of giving guns to people who aren't functioning on all levels.

Most of what I've heard in the media concerning this is that the incursions were not by legitimate military units, but by drug smugglers posing as the military. It would be pretty much insane for the real Mexican Army to be pulling this stuff.

Also, I don't think marijuana has anything to do with this. There's comparatively little money in marijuana smuggling, so legalizing it would do absolutely nothing (other than making some people here in the U.S. happy). Not that I'm against legalizing marijuana. It's just not a factor in this.

As to the border: How's that saying go?: "Good fences make good neighbors" I think is how it is. The Mexican government seems to be pursuing a policy of encouraging migration that violates our laws. If they're not going to be cooperative, we need to get tougher on our side. Last I'd heard, a bill was passed to build a fence. That might be a good idea, providing there's always someone guarding it.

Ever been in a fire fight? You're lucky if the first guy that starts shooting is even aware of the fact what he's shooting at has 2 legs and 2 arms let alone wether or not it actually intends to harm you. Sadly most countries have a bad tendancy of giving guns to people who aren't functioning on all levels.

Hey! You should be a defense attourney, you could get a lotta cop killers off the hook! :rolleyes:

I find myself wondering...
What would the reaction be if the US was, say, doing low-level supersonic overflights of Mexico City...
Or better yet, squadron level overflights of B-52's!

Anyway, to be serious for a moment, if the US was the one moving troops over the border, Im willing to bet Mexico would be screaming 'INVASION!' or something similar, or at least SOMEBODY would be freaking out and condeming the US actions as horrible, evil, bad and so forth.

If it keeps up maybe the US will start 'Forgetting' where the border is and chase Criminals into Mexico. They wouldn't be too happy about that would they? Hypocrites. I think a fake minefield threat would work wonders. (The US didn't sign the Minefield ban so it's completely legal.)

Ummm ... if we invaded Mexico, the US would no longer have an official language or national food.

I doubt that the government of Mexico is either ordering or condoning this. Hell if they even know about it.

This probably wouldn't escalate into war; it's kind of like Mexico sticking its head into an artillery barrel and challenging America to fire.

Ummm ... if we invaded Mexico, the US would no longer have an official language or national food.
Yes, but diarreah would be the national disease :p

Hey! You should be a defense attourney, you could get a lotta cop killers off the hook! :rolleyes:


Now to prove that black is white and as such the ACLU is racist!

Now to prove that black is white and as such the ACLU is racist!

I think you're missing my point, but OK. And good luck!

If it keeps up maybe the US will start 'Forgetting' where the border is and chase Criminals into Mexico. They wouldn't be too happy about that would they? Hypocrites. I think a fake minefield threat would work wonders. (The US didn't sign the Minefield ban so it's completely legal.)
Well, if that happens too often and there's the suspicion that it is deliberate (as it is now, it happens but only accidentaly) then Mexico has the authority to grab whoever is doing the chase and turn them over to the International Criminal Court, of which Mexico is a signatary, and not having signed the treaty with the US to exclude US military personnel, is therefore legally entitled

there have been recent arrests of american soldiers and border patrol agents for drug and immigrant smuggling, corruption works both ways. there have been border incursions on both sides, innocent and less than innocent. there have ever been abductions from mexico of people illegally smuggled across the border and turned over to american law enforcement. none of this means we are about to have a conflict with mexico. its just stuff that happens, people just generally don't notice it, then get their undies in a knot when its suddenly brought to their attention. the last real mexican and american border skirmishing were in the days of pancho villa, and those weren't particularly rousingly successful for the us. everyone just needs to chill out... oh and realize that the minutemen project that is stirring all this crap up have white supremacist connections(not sure why the press has been rather muted on this subject).

I'm pretty sure most members of the Minutemen movement have a desire to protect their nation as opposed to fighting the beaner scourge or whatever.

Well, if that happens too often and there's the suspicion that it is deliberate (as it is now, it happens but only accidentaly) then Mexico has the authority to grab whoever is doing the chase and turn them over to the International Criminal Court, of which Mexico is a signatary, and not having signed the treaty with the US to exclude US military personnel, is therefore legally entitled

And if our troops suddenly "forgot" where the border is, you'd almost think we'd not have back-up planned for them.

I'm pretty sure most members of the Minutemen movement have a desire to protect their nation as opposed to fighting the beaner scourge or whatever.
Yeah. A lot of them are there because they see a human tide just coming their way and they simply want the government to do something about it. Also most of the Mexicans think that it's their (the Minutemen's) land and it's their right to protect it; unfortunately, it's much easier for Mexican politicians to demonize the actions of the Minutemen instead of trying to find real solutions to keep people from starving in their own land.

The BDUs aren't difficult to get. The AR-15 wouldn't be difficult to get. The Kevlar vest and LBG would be more difficult. And did I mention that Humvees aren't cheap?
And the high speed boats that drug runners use aren't cheap either, but they seem to have plenty of them, no matter how many the Coast Guard catches.

We don't need to see their orders to shoot the sonsabitches as they try to cross the border. Especially after they've opened fire on US Law Enforcement on our side of the border.
Nope, and I see no problems with arresting them, and or shooting them (if the situation warrents).

But I'm not seeing anything within the articles to note that it is the REAL Mexican military or that this needs a US military responce.

Nor do I see the need to invade Mexico.

But I'm not seeing anything within the articles to note that it is the REAL Mexican military or that this needs a US military responce.

Nor do I see the need to invade Mexico.

I'm not proposing that we invade Mexico. And the only military response I'm proposing would be to increase US Army and Marine Corps patrols in the region in tandem with the Border Patrol, or make the Border Patrol half of the Coast Guard (thereby making them part of the armed services).

I'm not proposing that we invade Mexico. And the only military response I'm proposing would be to increase US Army and Marine Corps patrols in the region in tandem with the Border Patrol, or make the Border Patrol half of the Coast Guard (thereby making them part of the armed services).Hmmm... but what if it was US special forces or black ops and the administration doesn't want increased patrols in the area?

Hmmm... but what if it was US special forces or black ops and the administration doesn't want increased patrols in the area?

Then I'd say, "We done fucked, boy."