NationStates Jolt Archive

Im just wondering if more people on here are more sympathic towards the Arabs or the Jews on this issue. Personally I feel for the Palestines more, having their land taking from them and having to be under a brutual occupation for more then a half century. It seems unjust to me, but please vote, discuss, do what you like.

I feel for both.

There are good people on both sides. There are misguided people on both sides.

There is no occupation! That is our land! It was stolen from us centuries ago by half a dozen empires. The Palestinians must be sent back to Jordan or eliminated. They are from Jordan in the first place--squatters. Also, the Dome of the Rock should be moved off our Temple or destroyed.

I feel for both.

There are good people on both sides. There are misguided people on both sides.
There are no good people when you elect terrorists. Palestinians cannot be trusted. They let the Gaza fall in to anarchy. They are freeloaders and parasites who feed on Israel.

There is no occupation! That is our land! It was stolen from us centuries ago by half a dozen empires. The Palestinians must be sent back to Jordan or eliminated. They are from Jordan in the first place--squatters. Also, the Dome of the Rock should be moved off our Temple or destroyed.

Tell your mother I said to slap you and to tell you to stop being so militant.

Jews are evil blood-suckers.

I feel for both.

There are good people on both sides. There are misguided people on both sides.
Stole the words right out of my mouth.

*sues you*

1) I feel for people, not for nations. I don't like people on either side getting hurt or being treated unfairly.

2) Nonetheless, despite occasional shootings, rocket attacks and bombings, I think the Israelis have it a lot better than the Palestinians. They live in nice houses, with a reasonable GDP and cable TV. The Palestinians live in refugee cities, buildings that fall apart, with a tiny GDP (no economy to speak of really) and continuous Israeli attacks on all sorts of targets. Plus they have a crappy leadership.

3) Personally I'd like to see the UN Plan from '48/'49 dragged back from the drawer. Start over.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html

Jews are evil blood-suckers.

Assuming that's you in the pics in your sig, why are you feeding that lion a stick? :p

Tell your mother I said to slap you and to tell you to stop being so militant.
You are giving comfort and aid to our enemies. They don't want peace. We offered them almost 60 years of options and they won't take any of them. They aren't even from where Israel is.

By the way, there is only one side: Israel. As I have said, the "Palestinians" are from Jordan (and some from Egypt and Syria).

Got to say that I feel for both sides. There seem to be dicks on both side that don't do anything, but make the problem worse.

You are giving comfort and aid to our enemies.

"Our" enemies? I have no enemies. Just who am I giving aid and comfort to?

They don't want peace.

"They"?

We offered them almost 60 years of options and they won't take any of them.

"We"? "They"? I am really starting to get confused. I haven't offered anyone anything.

They aren't even from where Israel is.

Neither am I ... yet somehow I can go grab up my citizenship whenever I bloody well feel like it just because of my mother's bloodline.

So ... to that ... I say ... "So?"

Palestine's land rightfully belongs to Israel. Any country who votes a TERRORIST organization as ITS government is in my bad books.

For those who vote for Palestine, I hope you realize you are a dumbass. You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.

For those who vote for Palestine, I hope you realize you are a dumbass. You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.
http://schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

Assuming that's you in the pics in your sig, why are you feeding that lion a stick? :p

Yeah, that's me in the pix. Why am I feeding the lion a stick? You should see the paws on the b*stard. The bloody thing attacked my leg, after that photo was taken. And I tell you what.. that stick came in handy. :D

By the way, there is only one side: Israel. As I have said, the "Palestinians" are from Jordan (and some from Egypt and Syria).

If a Jordanian family has been living in Israel for, oh say, 8 generations ... I'm gonna say they're Israeli ... not Jordanians.

They-"Palestinians"
We-"Israelis/Zionists/Jews

Jews are evil blood-suckers.

Your name just reeks of irony to that claim.

For those who vote for Palestine, I hope you realize you are a dumbass. You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.

J.M.C. should feed you to a lion.

Yeah, that's me in the pix. Why am I feeding the lion a stick? You should see the paws on the b*stard. The bloody thing attacked my leg, after that photo was taken. And I tell you what.. that stick came in handy. :D
Aww :p One of them tried to pee on me. :eek: A female one. They can be scary. Gorgeous animals though. And by the way, sticks and whips eventually just begin to piss them off. So you're lucky you got away with your leg intact :p

There is no occupation! That is our land! It was stolen from us centuries ago by half a dozen empires.

I never realised ownership rights stretch across millennia.

They-"Palestinians"
We-"Israelis/Zionists/Jews
They-"People"
We-"People"

For those who vote for Palestine, I hope you realize you are a dumbass. You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.http://schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

Couldn't have said it better

They-"People"
We-"People"
Omg and I thought they were little green people from Mars :eek:

They-"Palestinians"
We-"Israelis/Zionists/Jews

I'm a Jew ... I'm not an Israeli nor am I a Zionist.

My being Jewish does not automagically allow me to kick someone out of their home because of a 3,000 year old blood claim. I find that silly and childish.

If you want to look at it religiously, it is by God that we were exiled and only by God shall we return. In the Talmud it says that if we take it back by military might, ceaseless war will be the result.

Looks like those Talmud writers were pretty smart. I'll take their word for it and stay in Texas.

Your name just reeks of irony to that claim.

I don't find that statement intelligible. However, JMC represents the fact that the American media is controlled by Jews.. movies, newspapers, television, news channels, everything. So yeah. Ironic.

I don't really care about either of them. If they can't work out something with themselves, that's their own fault. Why can't they just shut up and get along? Same goes for the rest of the world. Shut up and get along. =P

Shut up and get along. =P

Passes Frost the bong.

J.M.C. should feed you to a lion.

Sh-t.. I'm back in the USA now. :p Sure we can think of something, though..

Passes Frost the bong.

*ME too, me too!!!*

I feel for both.

There are good people on both sides. There are misguided people on both sides.

My sentiments exactly.

I don't find that statement intelligible. However, JMC represents the fact that the American media is controlled by Jews.. movies, newspapers, television, news channels, everything. So yeah. Ironic.

The great Zionist conspiracy, right? :rolleyes:

(Sounds like VoteEarly all over again...*shudder*)

Can't we all just...get along?

Palestine's land rightfully belongs to Israel.
How so?

Any country who votes a TERRORIST organization as ITS government is in my bad books.
Give them a chance? They just might surprise the hell out of you?

For those who vote for Palestine,
I voted for BOTH.

I hope you realize you are a dumbass.
Actually, I am a smartass. :rolleyes:

You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.
What did Palestine have to do with 9/11? I think you are confused.

It was stolen from us centuries ago by half a dozen empires.

WHOA must be some crazy tax issues there...

(Sounds like VoteEarly all over again...*shudder*)

Nah ... she's cuter than VE and she has a vast army of Zombie Lions. VE was never that cool.

I'm a Jew ... I'm not an Israeli nor am I a Zionist.

I thought you were Muslim? :confused:

*ME too, me too!!!*

Hooray! Afghani Sativa all around! woooo!

I thought you were Muslim? :confused:

What does that have to do with being a Jew or not? I'm also Irish ... didn't stop being Irish when I converted to Islam, now did I? My mother is still my mother, my blood is still my blood.

I thought you were Muslim? :confused:
One can be born into a Jewish family and then become Muslim (although one would be jumping the ladder of Abrahamistic enlightenment by not going Christian first).

But the fact is that Israel holds on to silly antisemitic definitions of "Jewish", and thus, if you have a Jewish mother, you get to become an Israeli citizen in no time flat. Or so I believe.

What does that have to do with being a Jew or not? I'm also Irish ... didn't stop being Irish when I converted to Islam, now did I? My mother is still my mother, my blood is still my blood.
I thought a Jew was someone who followed the religion.

They-"People"
We-"People"
Na und?
Being a human adds no inherent value to your life or your happiness, as membership in a species is just an accident over which one has no power. Such an accident was never earned, and so it means nothing.

Hooray! Afghani Sativa all around! woooo!

Sativa, Sativa!! *F yeah!* Hey.. you single? :D

I thought a Jew was someone who followed the religion.

Nah ... Jews come in all manner of religious persuasions ... Buddhist Jews, Atheist Jews, Muslim Jews, Christian Jews ...

"Jew" is a cultural identity, not a religion.

while i can understand both sides of the issue, i side with palestine.

Nah ... Jews come in all manner of religious persuasions ... Buddhist Jews, Atheist Jews, Muslim Jews, Christian Jews ...

"Jew" is a cultural identity, not a religion.
This is SO confusing. :confused: Whenever I ask a person what Jew truly means, they say its the religious persuasion. Even people who are Jews themselves. There was a whole debate on this in the "Are the Jews a race" thread. So it IS a cultural identityt then?

Palestine's land rightfully belongs to Israel. Any country who votes a TERRORIST organization as ITS government is in my bad books.

For those who vote for Palestine, I hope you realize you are a dumbass. You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.

Rightfullly belongs to Israel why? The palestinians were living there, then after WW2 we go over there and say fuck off, this land belongs to the Jews now. And that makes it rightfully israels? I'd be a terrorist too if someone just stole my land and made me leave. and then invaded the shit land theyd forced me into as well.

9 11 is not the same as someone fighting for land that belongs to them. or were the french resistance terrorists? or george washington?

Can't we all just...get along?
No, Ebfan. Don't be such a Jew, God.

"Jew" is a cultural identity, not a religion.

It's a race.

Na und?
Being a human adds no inherent value to your life or your happiness, as membership in a species is just an accident over which one has no power. Such an accident was never earned, and so it means nothing.
But it is the only absolute in our lives. We're human - we can change everything else but that.

And anyways, my point was that there is no real difference between "them" and "us". Taking Ariel Sharon, and making him start his life over again as a Palestinian (Karma!) will make him a suicide bomber, or at least it's possible.
To which party you happen to belong to is just a product of experiences, nothing more.

At least Moshe Dayan understood that. He remembered the old days, when Israelis had to fight for their land, and Arabs had to fight for their land. Today, no one seems to remember, and as a result you get "Israelis" which are somehow right and justified in being there moreso than "Palestinians", which have no right to be there and are just alltogether a different thing.

To which party you happen to belong to is just a product of experiences, nothing more.

Nice insight.

It's a race.

I don't like to use that term because you can convert to Judaism and that makes you a Jew.

Human is a race and, well, I don't think you can convert to human.

Black is an ethnicity and, well, I'm pretty sure you can't convert to black.

That's why I say Jewish is a "cultural identity". While ethnically diverse - Arab Jews, Black Jews, White Jews, etc - and religiously diverse - as mentioned above - we all share several common bonds because of the Jewish culture. Like being evil blood suckers ... and we all have horns.

To which party you happen to belong to is just a product of experiences, nothing more.

Still, experiences are ultimately what define a person.

I don't like to use that term because you can convert to Judaism and that makes you a Jew.

Human is a race and, well, I don't think you can convert to human.

Black is an ethnicity and, well, I'm pretty sure you can't convert to black.

That's why I say Jewish is a "cultural identity". While ethnically diverse - Arab Jews, Black Jews, White Jews, etc - and religiously diverse - as mentioned above - we all share several common bonds because of the Jewish culture. Like being evil blood suckers ... and we all have horns.
Cultural identity then. Something like the Amish?

I don't like to use that term because you can convert to Judaism and that makes you a Jew.

Human is a race and, well, I don't think you can convert to human.

Black is an ethnicity and, well, I'm pretty sure you can't convert to black.

That's why I say Jewish is a "cultural identity". While ethnically diverse - Arab Jews, Black Jews, White Jews, etc - and religiously diverse - as mentioned above - we all share several common bonds because of the Jewish culture. Like being evil blood suckers ... and we all have horns.

Sammy Davis Jr can be a Jew but a Woody allen cant ever be black. its just not fair.

Cultural identity then. Something like the Amish?

I don't know much about the Amish, I'm afraid.

Sammy Davis Jr can be a Jew but a Woody allen cant ever be black. its just not fair.

Lol ... yeah ... well you work with the hand you're dealt.

I don't like to use that term because you can convert to Judaism...


... and we all have horns.

Do you have to have surgery, or do they appear soon after your converted?

That's why I say Jewish is a "cultural identity". - we all share several common bonds because of the Jewish culture. Like being evil blood suckers ... and we all have horns.

Ha! Yeah, okay. You convinced me with the latter part. ;)

Do you have to have surgery, or do they appear soon after your converted?

It's magic. The second the Rabbi signs your conversion certificate ... *poof*!

We've been working on gills.

Ha! Yeah, okay. You convinced me with the latter part. ;)

Hooray! I convinced someone of something! *gives JMC the obligatory Martini*

But it is the only absolute in our lives. We're human - we can change everything else but that.
Which is exactly why it is meaningless as a definition. You can't use it as a qualifier, because all humans are people, and you can't use it as a measure of virtue/worth, because there is nothing done to deserve it.
Everything on Earth is a carbon-based lifeform, yet no one seems to think this is a meaningful trait.
And anyways, my point was that there is no real difference between "them" and "us". Taking Ariel Sharon, and making him start his life over again as a Palestinian (Karma!) will make him a suicide bomber, or at least it's possible.
No real differences. Except, of course, for every difference that matters.
Species is nothing, actions and beliefs are everything.
And your assertion about Ariel Sharon is meaningless and unprovable.
To which party you happen to belong to is just a product of experiences, nothing more.
They have free will and independent judgement, experiences are only a part of the decision making process. Unless, of course, you're willing to remove the only philosophical wall between man and beast (which makes your comment about both sides being human rather puzzling).
At least Moshe Dayan understood that. He remembered the old days, when Israelis had to fight for their land, and Arabs had to fight for their land. Today, no one seems to remember, and as a result you get "Israelis" which are somehow right and justified in being there moreso than "Palestinians", which have no right to be there and are just alltogether a different thing.
The fact is, the Jews have that land by International Law and by their own martial capacity. I really don't care whose granddaddy sat where, if I worried about that business I'd have packed up and returned to my roots from a few centuries ago (European petty crime, if you must know), but the present is what matters, and in the present, Palestinians are squatting, blowing civilians up, and generally acting like dicks.

It's magic. The second the Rabbi signs your conversion certificate ... *poof*!

Are they permanent?

I think it'd be cool to have horns but don't feel like being Jewish for the rest of my life.

We've been working on gills.

Kewl

I don't know much about the Amish, I'm afraid.
And yet, you're a spy for the Amish anyway (I think I fingered you. Maybe it was Kanabia)

And yet, you're a spy for the Amish anyway (I think I fingered you. Maybe it was Kanabia)
Okay, can you answer then? :p Is being Jewish like being Amish?

And yet, you're a spy for the Amish anyway (I think I fingered you. Maybe it was Kanabia)

Damnit ...

Now I must unleash my horde of Zombie Ninja-Pirates on you.

Are they permanent?

Yes ... but they can be hidden.

I think it'd be cool to have horns but don't feel like being Jewish for the rest of my life.

Well that comes with it, I'm afraid. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

It's a race.

Yeah, apparently you can tell by the size of their nose and their cranial measurements.

I don't find that statement intelligible. However, JMC represents the fact that the American media is controlled by Jews.. movies, newspapers, television, news channels, everything. So yeah. Ironic.

One would think that if that statement were actualy valid, that Israel would get media coverage that was actually positive

...in the present, Palestinians are squatting, blowing civilians up, and generally acting like dicks.
Well, look at how they're living, and you might start to understand why.

The thing that bothers me most about all this is that pro-Israeli people just seem to forget that Palestinians and Israelis are equal in every respect. Had the Arabs won, Jews would be living in camps on $600 a year, and Palestinians on $22,000.

There is just absolutely no reason for Israel to hold the moral high ground on all this.

But only once the moral high ground is abandoned, and Israel and Palestinians talk to each other as equals can any durable deal be reached.

As for the rest of your post, I'll leave that for another thread. Suffice to say that I consider people to be the product of a combination of their experiences and their genetics, but that I still believe that there is an inherent value in these automatons, if only because this belief saves us from self-destruction.

With all the flag burning going on in Palestine, I was really tempted to vote for Israel, but in the end its just too complicated down there.

The thing I dont get however, is why palestinians feel the need to burn the danish flag, the cartoons were really not that bad, an Denmark contributes massive amounts of money to help the palestinians.

I seem to remember something about not sh*tting where you eat... but I guess that saying hasnt made it to the middle east.

Hooray! I convinced someone of something! *gives JMC the obligatory Martini*

Ahhh, I see. Trying to get me drunk, aey?

The thing I dont get however, is why palestinians feel the need to burn the danish flag, the cartoons were really not that bad, an Denmark contributes massive amounts of money to help the palestinians.


What the hell does this thread have to do with Denmark?

Ahhh, I see. Trying to get me drunk, aey?

*shifty eyed glance*

Here ... have another ...

You got a telegram, by the way.

Once a Jew, always a Jew.

I thought it was "once a snake, always a snake." :p

*shifty eyed glance* Here ... have another ...

Oh.. it's.. empty.

Oh.. it's.. empty.

Wow you drink those fast. Sip 'em, hon .. don't want you passing out too soon, now.

Well that comes with it, I'm afraid. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

Wait, then how could Humanity be saved if no Jews could believe in Christ? :/

I would like to see two independant sovereign states of Israel and Palestine loosely based on the original partition plan of UN with exact borders worked out between the Israelis and Pals and nobody else interfering.

I sympathise with both the Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorism and Palestinian victims of Israeli disproportionate response.

Wait, then how could Humanity be saved if no Jews could believe in Christ? :/

Believing in Christ doesn't stop you from being a Jew.

Whether you're born a Jew or you convert to Judaism, you will always be a Jew, even if you later become Christian or Atheist or Jedi or whatever.

I support Palestine because ther's a really good looking Palestinian girl at my university, and an even better looking Jordanian one. I couldn't care less for the politics, sexy women make my decsion on this matter.
And I have yet to see a really hot Jewish pro-Israel woman.. at least hot enough to counter the hot pro-Palestinian women.


And Keru, I demand you minister whatever wedding I have if I ever have one.

You got a telegram, by the way.

Actually, I haven't received one.. yet.

Actually, I haven't received one.. yet.

Crap ... who did I send that to? What have you been slipping in the bong? :p

Wow you drink those fast. Sip 'em, hon .. don't want you passing out too soon, now.

..But you want me passing out, I take it. *hmm*

I support Palestine because ther's a really good looking Palestinian girl at my university, and an even better looking Jordanian one.

Best. Reason. Evar!

And Keru, I demand you minister whatever wedding I have if I ever have one.

It would be an honor. :)

Believing in Christ doesn't stop you from being a Jew.

Whether you're born a Jew or you convert to Judaism, you will always be a Jew, even if you later become Christian or Atheist or Jedi or whatever.

Oh wait, you mean ethnically, never mind heh.

Oh, and since I didn't declare my support when I first posted, Israel FTW! :D

..But you want me passing out, I take it. *hmm*

How else would I steal your wallet?

The thing that bothers me most about all this is that pro-Israeli people just seem to forget that Palestinians and Israelis are equal in every respect. Had the Arabs won, Jews would be living in camps on $600 a year, and Palestinians on $22,000.
No, the Palestians would have about $5,000 a year (average per capita GDP for bordering Arab states. The land has no magic power, it is Israelis that have made Israel prosperous), and the Jews would be dead or exiled back to Europe.
There is just absolutely no reason for Israel to hold the moral high ground on all this.
Morals are of no consequence, they have the legal and martial high ground, that is why the land is theirs, and that is why they should trounce the Palestinians out.
But only once the moral high ground is abandoned, and Israel and Palestinians talk to each other as equals can any durable deal be reached.
That's been tried, it never works. Far too many people have already bought "Death to Israel" T-Shirts to allow the slogan to fade from popular jargon.
As for the rest of your post, I'll leave that for another thread. Suffice to say that I consider people to be the product of a combination of their experiences and their genetics, but that I still believe that there is an inherent value in these automatons, if only because this belief saves us from self-destruction.
I'll say that I believe the almost the exact opposite, and leave off the Philosophy for tonight.

Crap ... who did I send that to? What have you been slipping in the bong? :p

*HAHAHA!* Well I sent you an email, with my address. What did I slip in the bong? It was white.. does that help? :p

Best. Reason. Evar!


Most logical and most pertinant one too.

How else would I steal your wallet?

*Ho-ho-hooooooo!* How did you know I have a wallet? Most girls don't Have wallets. *Conspiracy!!* I'm poor anyway. Ha!

*HAHAHA!* Well I sent you an email, with my address.

Ooh! Does that mean I get to come stalk you? Awesome.

*Ho-ho-hooooooo!* How did you know I have a wallet?

HA! I didn't until you told me! Weeeeeeeee! :D Now if you'll kindly show me where it is ...

Ooh! Does that mean I get to come stalk you? Awesome.


Keru, you're married, remember that.
It's not stalking when married, it's a game of poker with the guys.

Keru, you're married, remember that.
It's not stalking when married, it's a game of poker with the guys.

Poker? I hardly know 'er!

(Careful with that joke ... it's an antique.)

Keru, you're married, remember that.
It's not stalking when married, it's a game of poker with the guys.

Thanx for that pertinent info. I throw in the cards. :p

Palestine's land rightfully belongs to Israel. Any country who votes a TERRORIST organization as ITS government is in my bad books.

For those who vote for Palestine, I hope you realize you are a dumbass. You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.
The land doesnt rightful belong to Israel, give me one reason why. And dont use "God gave to us" crap. Since theres no god, he couldnt gave it to one people. Hamas does alot more than engage in resistence activities. Actually its the reason Im very much against 9/11, that I support the Palestinians. The Palestine injust angers arabs. Angered arabs like to blow things up and endanger the US. Fix the injustice, arabs are happy, the US is more safe. Cool how that works isnt?

It's equal! 19/19 (so far).

-Intense debate-

-Shifty eyes-

Now you two have just gone beyond control.
Antique jokes belong in a museum.

*Walks away shaking his head in shame*

Yes ... but they can be hidden.



Well that comes with it, I'm afraid. Once a Jew, always a Jew.


I hate to break it to you, but I am a learned Jew, ahve been a Jew since the day I was born and although I am presently Agnostic, I can assure you that neither I or any other Jew I have ever met has horns. Hidden or otherwise. In fact, no human I have never met ever had horns atop their head unless it was for a costume; please be biologically realistic.

Also, what people seem to be missing is that the Palestinian terrorist are blowing up real people and not even just Jews. I truly doubt any one of you has ever been walking through the streets of Jerusalem and seen a bomb go off at a bus stop only a block infront of you. Let me assure you, its terrifying.

People are dying because the Palestinian Government refuses to take care of its citizens. It is not a question of funds, they have enough money to turn things around if they wanted, but refugee camps look better on the news then the Palestinian neighborhood near Caesarea with two to three million dollar homes. The money they do not spend on their own higher ups is used to either to pay off mothers of dead bombers or to purchase more weaponry.

Now you two have just gone beyond control.
Antique jokes belong in a museum.
They can't put the jokes in the museum 'cuz your mum is taking up all the display space.
Spoiler: She's fat (hence, taking all the display space) and old (hence, in museum). Get it? Get it?

They can't put the jokes in the museum 'cuz your mum is taking up all the display space.
Spoiler: She's fat (hence, taking all the display space) and old (hence, in museum). Get it? Get it?


I thought she was taking up all the storage space in the basement.

Actually she's not fat. But that doesn't mean she's good to look at.

I hate to break it to you, but I am a learned Jew, ahve been a Jew since the day I was born and although I am presently Agnostic, I can assure you that neither I or any other Jew I have ever met has horns. Hidden or otherwise. In fact, no human I have never met ever had horns atop their head unless it was for a costume; please be biologically realistic.

Calm down ... way, way, way down ...

I am a Jew and have been a Jew since the day I was born, raised somewhat Orthodox with strong ties to the Breslov Hassidic community. Yeshiva starting at 3, became a bar mitzvah at 13, the whole nine yards and a bag of chips.

We should remember our Jewish sense of humor.

Calm down ... way, way, way down ...

I am a Jew and have been a Jew since the day I was born, raised somewhat Orthodox with strong ties to the Breslov Hassidic community. Yeshiva starting at 3, became a bar mitzvah at 13, the whole nine yards and a bag of chips.

We should remember our Jewish sense of humor.

I thought you were a Muslim.

Interesting. . .

Anyway, 19 for Palestine, 20 for Israel.

Israel scores one more point!

I thought you were a Muslim.

Interesting. . .

Hey ... with a name like that, you've probably realised that you've just made the thread circle back around to post #36 when someone else said the exact same words to me.

Come on, now. Read back. I'm not repeating myself. Not even for a genius mastermind such as yourself. :p

In fact, no human I have never met ever had horns atop their head unless it was for a costume; please be biologically realistic.
But you do all wear a little bag with your jew-gold around your neck, right?

People are dying because the Palestinian Government refuses to take care of its citizens. It is not a question of funds, they have enough money to turn things around if they wanted, but refugee camps look better on the news then the Palestinian neighborhood near Caesarea with two to three million dollar homes. The money they do not spend on their own higher ups is used to either to pay off mothers of dead bombers or to purchase more weaponry.
And that is why they voted for Hamas, which has a reputation in Palestine for helping people in need.

But instead of looking at that, they yell "ZOMFG!!11! Teh Palestinians are teh Turrizts, cuz they voted Hamas!!!1! :gundge: "

But you do all wear a little bag with your jew-gold around your neck, right?


And that is why they voted for Hamas, which has a reputation in Palestine for helping people in need.

But instead of looking at that, they yell "ZOMFG!!11! Teh Palestinians are teh Turrizts, cuz they voted Hamas!!!1! :gundge: "

Jew Gold? No. I assure you that such a thing does not exist and round my neck is a Flamel from Full Metal Alchemist that is neither Jewish nor Golden.

Hamas helps people? Tell that to the Kibutz outside the Gaza Strip that was shelled by them over the summer. Two dead. Tell that to any other of their numerous targets and the many corpses that resulted .

Palestine's land rightfully belongs to Israel. Any country who votes a TERRORIST organization as ITS government is in my bad books.

For those who vote for Palestine, I hope you realize you are a dumbass. You are basically saying you support 9/11. Good riddance.
Oh for God's sake, get a frakking grip! I feel equally for both sides and no one could ever honestly accuse me of supporting 9/11!

This is one of the most complex and intractable problems in international relations. Both groups claim the land on which the current State of Israel exists. Both groups have a sizable minority which would gladly slit the throats of the other group. Numerous nations have a stake in the outcome. Numerous nations will join the fray if war erupts again. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

they are just two confused peoples

they are just two confused peoples
And this makes them different from the peoples of most other nations how???

There is no occupation! That is our land! It was stolen from us centuries ago by half a dozen empires. The Palestinians must be sent back to Jordan or eliminated. They are from Jordan in the first place--squatters. Also, the Dome of the Rock should be moved off our Temple or destroyed.


The only people that can claim right of return are the families that were chased out in the 1928 revolt.


There are no good people when you elect terrorists. Palestinians cannot be trusted. They let the Gaza fall in to anarchy. They are freeloaders and parasites who feed on Israel.

Then you really don't have a clue. I have been there. Have you?

Stole the words right out of my mouth.

*sues you*

Alright.

*climbs out from under his bed*

Have a cookie!

It's a race.

I thought they were arabs? :p

I support Palestine because ther's a really good looking Palestinian girl at my university, and an even better looking Jordanian one. I couldn't care less for the politics, sexy women make my decsion on this matter.
And I have yet to see a really hot Jewish pro-Israel woman.. at least hot enough to counter the hot pro-Palestinian women.

And Keru, I demand you minister whatever wedding I have if I ever have one.

Ewwwwwwwwww

I went out with a Jordanian a couple times. She was drop dead beautiful!

Oh for God's sake, get a frakking grip! I feel equally for both sides and no one could ever honestly accuse me of supporting 9/11!


How about saying you planned it! :p

You can be crazy Eut but I would vouch for you on that one.

For whatever that is worth? ;)

This is SO confusing. :confused: Whenever I ask a person what Jew truly means, they say its the religious persuasion. Even people who are Jews themselves. There was a whole debate on this in the "Are the Jews a race" thread. So it IS a cultural identityt then?

Judaism is a religion, as Jews can come from any different race or ethnic group. However, the Hebrews were a ethnic group, but they have mostly died out by now. Most Jews now a days are European Jews of some sort, whether they be Slavic or Germanic....But there are still some arab Jews left called Sephardic.

Oh, and of course, for Israel.

Its us against them, and frankly, until other people on this forum go to the middle east and see what the actual Israelis and arabs are like, and how they react to you, I dont expect your opinion to be very credible on something like this.

Just a young American's opinion, anyway.

Its us against them

No, it really isn't, and the fact that you think so is far more frightening than 1,000 9/11s.

No, it really isn't, and the fact that you think so is far more frightening than 1,000 9/11s.

Oh yeah...I'm sure the fact that I think so is just making you tremble with fear and seriously rethink our whole global situation. :rolleyes:

It is us against them, regardless of what they teach you in school.

I wouldnt expect someone who hasnt witnessed it first hand to know what I'm talking about.

It is us against them, regardless of what they teach you in school.


Fortunately, I already know that you cannot define "us" or "them", so I'm confident in my initial answer.

Your personal thoughts have no meaning on anything. Sorry.

I wouldnt expect someone who hasnt witnessed it first hand to know what I'm talking about.

Oh yeah ... by the way ... I'm sure you've witnessed many horrible things in California ....

Oh yeah ... by the way ... I'm sure you've witnessed many horrible things in California ....

Just because I lived in California doesnt mean I have never VISITED the Middle East.

Fortunately, I already know that you cannot define "us" or "them", so I'm confident in my initial answer.

Your personal thoughts have no meaning on anything. Sorry.

Thats easy. Us= The West and all that it stands for, including countries like Australia and Israel.

Them= The Arabs in the Middle East, their muslim world and all that it stands for.

Amen. More power to Israel. They should be allowed to do what ever is needed to protect themselves from militants. They have a right to the land that dates back to before any Arab civilization, they have a stable working, internationally recognized government, the military they need to protect themselves but most importantly, Israel is not and really never has been the aggressor in this situation. Jews have always been in that region in comparison, Arabs are the late comers, the agressors.
There is no occupation! That is our land! It was stolen from us centuries ago by half a dozen empires. The Palestinians must be sent back to Jordan or eliminated. They are from Jordan in the first place--squatters. Also, the Dome of the Rock should be moved off our Temple or destroyed.

Them= The Arabs in the Middle East, their muslim world and all that it stands for.

Arabs? Fuck the Arabs!

Why is it you people have to bring up the Arabs?

Less than 15% of the world's Muslims are Arab. What that means is that if some Arab schmuck does something, it means it's not necessarily something that applies to the "Muslim World".

You'll find that most Mulims don't give a rat's ass about most of this crap. Danish Cartoons? Whatever. Some American Screaming Ignorant? Whatever. Iranian Propoganda? Whatever.

The greatest majority of us don't give a shit. The day you, and all of the people like you, realise that is the day you may actually begin to truly take an objective look.

Unfortunately, if one in our midst says, "Death to Israel!", you take it as absolute gospel. Yet if Pat Robertson says something, we have to take it as some lunatic? Come on! Why is it that we listen to every nut job, but we have to think you pick and choose?

In short, if you believe I listen to the fuck hole who said being naked with your wife nullifies your marriage, then you must accept that I believe that all Christians think being gay is punishable by living hellfire.

Just because I lived in California doesnt mean I have never VISITED the Middle East.
Obviously, as an American, you have spent your entire life in a bubble, never seeing anything beyond your own borders. Further, as a Californian, you must have no knowledge beyond MTV and surfing.
Of course, Keru, as a Muslim, is just an ignorant towel head who gets off on killing people and hates everything.
And all of us, as users of the Interweb, are living in our mother's basement while masturbating to the technical specs of our "rigs" and downloading the latest distro for our prefered falvor of Unix.

This night's episode of "Fun with Stereotypes" was brought to you by the Electric Hellfire Club.

Arabs? Fuck the Arabs!

Why is it you people have to bring up the Arabs?

Less than 15% of the world's Muslims are Arab. What that means is that if some Arab schmuck does something, it means it's not necessarily something that applies to the "Muslim World".

You'll find that most Mulims don't give a rat's ass about most of this crap. Danish Cartoons? Whatever. Some American Screaming Ignorant? Whatever. Iranian Propoganda? Whatever.

The greatest majority of us don't give a shit. The day you, and all of the people like you, realise that is the day you may actually begin to truly take an objective look.

Unfortunately, if one in our midst says, "Death to Israel!", you take it as absolute gospel. Yet if Pat Robertson says something, we have to take it as some lunatic? Come on! Why is it that we listen to every nut job, but we have to think you pick and choose?

In short, if you believe I listen to the fuck hole who said being naked with your wife nullifies your marriage, then you must accept that I believe that all Christians think being gay is punishable by living hellfire.

Yet when your people decapitate a civilian journalist on international TV, there is no rioting, no protesting, just silence. Then all of a sudden you guys just get up in arms and totally emotional about a fucking picture thousands of miles away in Scandanavia.

Arabs? Fuck the Arabs!

Why is it you people have to bring up the Arabs?
Because the Palestinians are Arabs? And he never said anything about the entire muslim world, just the Arab's muslim world.
Goddamn, quit being such a Jew. Not everything is a personal insult.

Obviously, as an American, you have spent your entire life in a bubble, never seeing anything beyond your own borders. Further, as a Californian, you must have no knowledge beyond MTV and surfing.
Of course, Keru, as a Muslim, is just an ignorant towel head who gets off on killing people and hates everything.
And all of us, as users of the Interweb, are living in our mother's basement while masturbating to the technical specs of our "rigs" and downloading the latest distro for our prefered falvor of Unix.

This night's episode of "Fun with Stereotypes" was brought to you by the Electric Hellfire Club.

Seriously. Since when does being from California automatically mean you never have been over seas? lol.

Yet when your people decapitate a civilian journalist on international TV, there is no rioting, no protesting, just silence.

Just because it's not on CNN doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Because the Palestinians are Arabs? And he never said anything about the entire muslim world, just the Arab's muslim world.
Goddamn, quit being such a Jew. Not everything is a personal insult.

Exactly...in case he didnt notice I said this... Them= The Arabs in the Middle East, their muslim world and all that it stands for. BUT, I guess he only sees what he wants to see. :rolleyes:

Goddamn, quit being such a Jew.

NO! :p

Just because it's not on CNN doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Then prove me wrong. Prove to me that your people get up in arms and riot and protest whenever other muslims slaughter civilians.

I feel for both.

There are good people on both sides. There are misguided people on both sides.

outstanding point of view and comment,truly sad situation.

Who has the claim to the land not by God, like if it is won via war then one party should have claim to that land being israel. But if it was stolen from the the arabs then it is theirs, so which is it.

Who has the claim to the land

Who has the claim to the land not by God, like if it is won via war then one party should have claim to that land being israel. But if it was stolen from the the arabs then it is theirs, so which is it.

Who has the claim to the land

Israel. They won it in a war in which they defeated the Arab nations.

see the six day war, thats when the Israelis took Jerusalem.

Then prove me wrong.

I already have.

If you can't be bothered to use the search function, I'm sorry.

I've already linked to every single instance of Muslims being pissed off at terrorists. I've already quoted Qu'ran.

I hate repeating myself.

Well then it is theirs. And to those who say i cannot boil it down to that i say look at siberia for russia and look at the West for the US, or the Aborigines in Oz

I already have.

If you can't be bothered to use the search function, I'm sorry.

I've already linked to every single instance of Muslims being pissed off at terrorists. I've already quoted Qu'ran.

I hate repeating myself.

No you havnt. There has been nothing like this (whats going on over the cartoons) about the muslim kidnappings and decapitations of innocent civilians. Nothing even close to this scale.

Well then it is theirs. And to those who say i cannot boil it down to that i say look at siberia for russia and look at the West for the US, or the Aborigines in Oz

Yup.

he has a point

he has a point

Who does?

war is the final decided, i hate to say it because it is bad for one side but if the Jews won it then it is theirs no matter what we do.

As for Hamas all i can say is they have become democratic that should be rewarded.

Even if they are a terror orgainsation it looks worse if we abandon the, they represent their people, if we are truly democratic society then we must accept that.

And who have a good point sorry

war is the final decided, i hate to say it because it is bad for one side but if the Jews won it then it is theirs no matter what we do.

As for Hamas all i can say is they have become democratic that should be rewarded.

Even if they are a terror orgainsation it looks worse if we abandon the, they represent their people, if we are truly democratic society then we must accept that.

And who have a good point sorry

We cant, no nation can because then our nations would be funding terrorism, something I dont beleive any nation is ready to do.

Who do you think has a good point????

Terrorism or freedom figher a very fine line,

BUt they are people so you say we neglect the people of one nation to support another, because that is what happens no matter how we put it.

Mandela some have called a freedom fighter turned activist.

He was militant at the beginning only short but still was.

You alantian islands have a good point with the beheading

You alantian islands have a good point with the beheading

Ohh, thank you.

No problems and i have heard of europa maxima, i think i saw him in a argument with Fels

Yet when your people decapitate a civilian journalist on international TV, there is no rioting, no protesting, just silence. Then all of a sudden you guys just get up in arms and totally emotional about a fucking picture thousands of miles away in Scandanavia.
Speaking of "emotional", it appears that you are quite emotional about all of this yourself, to the point that you want to go to war with the Muslims, whether they are extremists or not.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10382177#post10382177

Apparently you dislike/hate Muslims so much that you make up shit about them?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10376696#post10376696

Yeah, there are extremists on both sides and you appear to be one of them.

I have sympathy for both but i must admit that a certain countries choice of government has made me side with Israel a bit more.


We must also remeber that Israel is the traditional home of the jews and i think they have more of a right to a homeland.

No problems and i have heard of europa maxima, i think i saw him in a argument with Fels

What about him?

Speaking of "emotional", it appears that you are quite emotional about all of this yourself, to the point that you want to go to war with the Muslims, whether they are extremists or not.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10382177#post10382177

Apparently you dislike/hate Muslims so much that you make up shit about them?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10376696#post10376696

Yeah, there are extremists on both sides and you appear to be one of them.

Yup, I dont like the arabs. :)

Yup, I dont like the arabs. :)
And when did this hatred start?

And when did this hatred start?

Its always been there...I'm Jewish. They dont like Jews, we dont like them...thus the Arab-Israeli situation is born.

I dont have these feelings towards Muslims in general. Like as long as they are not terrorist apologist, I have no problem with American muslims, I just dont like arabs/muslims in the middle east.

Plus I would say it further intensified when I actually went to the Middle East.

There's no good rationale to be sympathetic towards either side.

The Jews run a fascist state.

The Palestinians a terrorist one.

They both receive foreign aid and are equally screwed without it.

Like all couples, they deserve each other.

im pretty much neutral because i dont know the facts (just the garbage that the media is spitting out)

i would like for both of them to come to a conclusion peacefully

the media can deceive one very easily, so be careful

There's no good rationale to be sympathetic towards either side.

The Jews run a fascist state.

The Palestinians a terrorist one.

They both receive foreign aid and are equally screwed without it.

Like all couples, they deserve each other.

Uh, care to explain to us how Israel is fascist?

Plus I would say it further intensified when I actually went to the Middle East.
So where exactly did you go? What did you do? And what the hell happened?

The only time I've been there I was on the Dubai Airport (nothing suspicious going on there), but my parents travelled Egypt extensively and visited friends there. I've heard of nothing bad there either.

So where exactly did you go? What did you do? And what the hell happened?

The only time I've been there I was on the Dubai Airport (nothing suspicious going on there), but my parents travelled Egypt extensively and visited friends there. I've heard of nothing bad there either.

I went to Israel. We travelled all over Israel and I actually met the Arabs first hand. They just dont like you, they dont have to be terrorists or extremist or even government officials. Its just the normal Arabs that dont like Westerns. You know you travel to Israel and you can go to certain areas because the Arabs with attack you, they might snipe you, kidnap you...etc....like for instace theres a place called Hebron, and its a religious tourist site. Many tourists travel there, but the problem is the site is surrounded by arab territory. So they actually had problems with Arab snipers just picking off the civilian tourists as they walked to the tourist spot in Hebron. Also, like when you go there, you see that the Israelis, in contrast to the Arabs, are VERY appreaciative of everything that we are doing to support them, and they are just very grateful, where as the Arabs, well you can even walk to predominatly arab territory with worrying about being Sniped. Also, the Arabs there are all just kind of free loading off the system. Like if you go to East Jerusalem (which used to be Arab) all you see is Arabs laying in the streets and sidewalks...uneducated, unemployed, and just violent. Its like they dont even think as a normal human being would.

Thats the main thing with Arab's they have nothing to live for and nothing is going for them so they blame everybody other then themselves for the faults they create.

We must also take into account that Westernised Mueslims are diffrent then the Mueslims in the Middle East.

Thats the main thing with Arab's they have nothing to live for and nothing is going for them so they blame everybody other then themselves for the faults they create.

racist fucker

Amen. More power to Israel. They should be allowed to do what ever is needed to protect themselves from militants. They have a right to the land that dates back to before any Arab civilization, they have a stable working, internationally recognized government, the military they need to protect themselves but most importantly, Israel is not and really never has been the aggressor in this situation. Jews have always been in that region in comparison, Arabs are the late comers, the agressors.


By your logic, and anyone else who claims the Jews have any form of ancesteral right to the area, I have an ancesteral right to the whole of southern Iraq.
So, when are you going to remove the American soldiers and Iraqi citizens taking up space in my land?

"Jews have always been in that region" is about the stupidest thing around. The Jews under David displaced and tried to wipe out the native inhabitants, who's direct descendants are now part of the Palestinian bloodline. So I guess, if you go by genetics, they have the rightful claim to the land. If you go by religion and claim Israel does, then I have a rightful claim to southern Iraq, if you want to enforce either you better enforce both, otherwise you're just a hypocrit.

racist fucker

Im anything but racist but if the arabs continue blaiming other people for there condition they will never be able to improve themselve's.

Im anything but racist but if the arabs continue blaiming other people for there condition they will never be able to improve themselve's.

you are extremely ignorant. i dont reason with ignorant people

I went to Israel. We travelled all over Israel and I actually met the Arabs first hand. They just dont like you, they dont have to be terrorists or extremist or even government officials. Its just the normal Arabs that dont like Westerns. You know you travel to Israel and you can go to certain areas because the Arabs with attack you, they might snipe you, kidnap you...etc....like for instace theres a place called Hebron, and its a religious tourist site. Many tourists travel there, but the problem is the site is surrounded by arab territory. So they actually had problems with Arab snipers just picking off the civilian tourists as they walked to the tourist spot in Hebron. Also, like when you go there, you see that the Israelis, in contrast to the Arabs, are VERY appreaciative of everything that we are doing to support them, and they are just very grateful, where as the Arabs, well you can even walk to predominatly arab territory with worrying about being Sniped. Also, the Arabs there are all just kind of free loading off the system. Like if you go to East Jerusalem (which used to be Arab) all you see is Arabs laying in the streets and sidewalks...uneducated, unemployed, and just violent. Its like they dont even think as a normal human being would.



So let me get this straight. You went to one tiny corner of the Arabian world, and you consider yourself an expert on the Arab people?
That's just plain ignorant. I can say that because I've been to Florida, I am automatically an expert on the American people, and can say whatever I want about all of them because whatever I experianced in Florida obviously applies to every part of the country.

So let me get this straight. You went to one tiny corner of the Arabian world, and you consider yourself an expert on the Arab people?
That's just plain ignorant. I can say that because I've been to Florida, I am automatically an expert on the American people, and can say whatever I want about all of them because whatever I experianced in Florida obviously applies to every part of the country.

Well you probably havnt been paying attention so I will say it again. I am judging them on how the react to Israel, Jews, Christians, and Westerners. So, yes I could do that accuratly from Israel.

Well you probably havnt been paying attention so I will say it again. I am judging them on how the react to Israel, Jews, Christians, and Westerners. So, yes I could do that accuratly from Israel.

Not the whole Arab world though, only the Arabs in Israel. Unless you're going to say you visited every other Arab country and talked with the people?

Not the whole Arab world though, only the Arabs in Israel. Unless you're going to say you visited every other Arab country and talked with the people?

that is why he is ignorant.

i am a white catholic that knows that those racial slurs are not true at all

Not the whole Arab world though, only the Arabs in Israel. Unless you're going to say you visited every other Arab country and talked with the people?

What the hell does it matter?!

I went there to see how Arabs view Israel and the west. I found out.

you are extremely ignorant. i dont reason with ignorant people

You have a extremely foul mouth.

I have a sister in-law who is Hindu im a christian i get along with her because Hindu's wont kill to make a point (plus ive known her since i was three).

If you want a arguement you wont get one i just stating a point the only reason Mueslims in the middle-east hate us so much is because they think we are the reason there countries are poor.

P.S. i dont like people who must swear in there sentence's it shows a lack of brainpower.

Ok then not the ENTIRE middle-east but then how many of you guys have visted israel?

I went to Israel.
Well, that hardly qualifies you to speak about the Arab World, does it?

We travelled all over Israel and I actually met the Arabs first hand. They just dont like you, they dont have to be terrorists or extremist or even government officials. Its just the normal Arabs that dont like Westerns.
Generalisation.

You know you travel to Israel and you can go to certain areas because the Arabs with attack you, they might snipe you, kidnap you...etc....like for instace theres a place called Hebron, and its a religious tourist site. Many tourists travel there, but the problem is the site is surrounded by arab territory. So they actually had problems with Arab snipers just picking off the civilian tourists as they walked to the tourist spot in Hebron.
I don't think a tourist has been shot at for years. As for terrorism, well, I thought even you understood that that is hardly representative of the entire community.

Also, the Arabs there are all just kind of free loading off the system. Like if you go to East Jerusalem (which used to be Arab) all you see is Arabs laying in the streets and sidewalks...uneducated, unemployed, and just violent. Its like they dont even think as a normal human being would.
You know why the Palestinian economy collapsed, don't you?

I don't know when you travelled there, but most Palestinians have been employed in Israel for many years. The occupied territory is not a country that can sustain itself, ergo, its economy is deeply intertwined with the Israeli one. And when the Israelis closed the border, trade, employment and all the rest was cut off.

And I would like to know where you got that "and just violent" from. I look at details like that, you see.

In my first post in this thread I posted the links to the factbook entries for the Palestinian territories. You'll see the unemployment and poverty figures there.

What the hell does it matter?!

I went there to see how Arabs view Israel and the west. I found out.


How many Arabs did you specifically ask that question to then?
There are about 1,250,000 Arabs in Israel, not including the Gaza strip or West Bank, and not all of them are muslim (there are Arab Jews and Christians, and not only in Israel). I doubt you talked to them all.
Now, there are roughly 98,000,000 Arabs in the middle east alone, not including Egypt. Even if you talked to every single Arab in Israel, you're only talking to 1% of the regional ethnic population.
So quit your ignorant "I know all about them because I talked to a few and that means all of them". It's the lamest excuse I have ever heard.

I have a sister in-law who is Hindu im a christian i get along with her because Hindu's wont kill to make a point (plus ive known her since i was three).


You've never heard of Honour Killings then. Hindus do it to. So do Christians, Jews, Pagans, and whatever else you can think of.

You have a extremely foul mouth.

I have a sister in-law who is Hindu im a christian i get along with her because Hindu's wont kill to make a point (plus ive known her since i was three).

If you want a arguement you wont get one i just stating a point the only reason Mueslims in the middle-east hate us so much is because they think we are the reason there countries are poor.

P.S. i dont like people who must swear in there sentence's it shows a lack of brainpower.


Israel is making a point of killing just as the muslims, but its the Israeli that is the occypying force. Im not saying that makes any of the killings in the right.
Christians are also making a point in killing(usa and uk and so on).

Israel is at the time slowly whiping out the arabs in Israel, by destroying the houses they live in, leaving them on the streets. They say that they dont have a bouilding permit and that the rocky land they live on is going to be cultivated for farming. I have seen these lands (on documetary) and it did not look like good farming as nothing was growing on the dust and rocks(mostly rocks).
They even give the families a bill for destroying their house.
I dont know but I think I would be a bit pissed if somebody tore down my familys house and billed me for it.
This is ethinc clensing in slow motion.

http://www.icahd.org/eng/
And the jews should know better after ww2.

Well you probably havnt been paying attention so I will say it again. I am judging them on how the react to Israel, Jews, Christians, and Westerners. So, yes I could do that accuratly from Israel.

That's interesting. I was there a couple years ago and I found Arabs to be rather friendly once you talked to them.

Of course there were some that didn't like me but guess what? I can find that anywhere in the world.

Also, I found a few dickhead Israelis too.

I am wondering if you were there and or if you walk around with a fuck you expression, I can see your response. Especially when reading your comments here.....

Ok then not the ENTIRE middle-east but then how many of you guys have visted israel?

I have. We have an office in Tel-Aviv.

Israel is at the time slowly whiping out the arabs in Israel, by destroying the houses they live in, leaving them on the streets. They say that they dont have a bouilding permit and that the rocky land they live on is going to be cultivated for farming. I have seen these lands (on documetary) and it did not look like good farming as nothing was growing on the dust and rocks(mostly rocks).
They even give the families a bill for destroying their house.
I dont know but I think I would be a bit pissed if somebody tore down my familys house and billed me for it.
This is ethinc clensing in slow motion.

http://www.icahd.org/eng/
And the jews should know better after ww2.

Hmmmm I guess they missed an area outside of Jeruselem. Arab homes. Actually nice. Of course they supported Israel in 48.....

You've never heard of Honour Killings then. Hindus do it to. So do Christians, Jews, Pagans, and whatever else you can think of.

Ahhh. But is that related to religion or tribal stuff(ie pashtun)?

http://www.icahd.org/eng/

A very good and informative site made by israelis working towards a fair peace.

My own comment is this debate will be that the only reasonable solution is a fair peaceagreement to both sides which must include two states.
Palestinians generally hate israelis, this is true, but you must also look at the reason for this hatered. It's not based on religion except for the fundamentalists, it's based on a horribly unfair and inhuman occupation and opression. Suecide bombings and terrorist acts must never be condoned, but nor is it right by moral and international law for a state(Israel) to carry out terrorist acts against occupied territorries either. If unsure, look up the facts, I would recommend a look at the above websites FAQ and a good read about Uri Avenry and Gush Shalom which can be found at: http://www.gush-shalom.org.
Furthermore, palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist in 1988 but the israelis has never recongnized the palestinians right to exist, even during the Camp David and Oslo negotiations.
The palestinians have, for decades, been ready for a fair compromise but has alwasy been let down in the end.

I voted for both and I lived in a village with both palestinians and jews for six months, not far from Tel-Aviv and I've traveled the country quite a bit.

Ahhh. But is that related to religion or tribal stuff(ie pashtun)?
Well, to be honest, I think honour killings don't have anything to do with Islam either. It's tribalism and tradition just as it was in India (and in some areas apparently still is).

Basically, as someone has said, both sides have legitamite grievances, and have carrid out reprehensible actions.

The Palestinians are opressed, do not have a functioning economy, and are having their infastructure (roads, sanitation, houses, schools etc) gradually destroyed. They are killed in attacks by the Isreali military (either as collateral damage in attacks against terrorist targets, or occasional things such as shooting of civilians which occur) or Isreali extremists. On the other hand Palestinian terrorist groups target and kill Isreali civilains, hatred of Jews has now become widespread, and some groups, such as Hamas, want to wipe Isreal right of the map.

Isrealis obiously are under pretty much constant threat of terrorist attacks, and had to face previous attempts to destroy the nation. On the other hand some Isrealis have gone about killing Palestinians deliberatly and outside any attempt to control terrorism (and even then it often is excessive. hmm terrorists meeting in bottom floor of residential tower block. Oh lets level the building with a bomb, totally disregarding any further casualties it will cause), the government build illegal settlements on land that is meant to be part of Plalestine, have made normal life in many parts of Palestine impossible, through curfews and checkpoints, and of course have systematically destoryed signifcant prortions of of Palestinian infastructure. Some of this is an attempt by some as moving towards incorporating the vast majority of good lan in the Palestinian state into Isreal, leaving it as a completely unviable state.

Basically both sides are in the wrong and both have legititamate concerns, and if they just realised this (hard to do this now that with the length of the conflict, hatred has become so ingrained), they could start to go somewhere.

Oh and someone said something about the Palestinians going back to Jordan:

1) The West Bank used to be part of Jordan, after the formation of Isreal. They would not be going back to where they came from as the part of Jordan they came from is now the West Bank

2) The Arab nations, even though they claim to support the Palestinians, dont want them in their country. This leaves the Palestinians with no state. They have nowhere to go (apart from the fact that many have roots in The West Bank and Gaza for centuries. Now you just expect them to give that up and leave?).

I personally think that the Green lone should become the border except at Jerusalem, which should either be jointly adminstered, or an open city under the protection of the UN, allowing both sides access to their religious sites, and making sure that no one side can claim they have "won" Jerusalem and using it to humilate the other side (as it is such an important symbol on both side).

Its always been there...I'm Jewish. They dont like Jews, we dont like them...thus the Arab-Israeli situation is born.
So, from an early age, you were taught to hate the "A-rabs" (as you like to call them), even though you live thousands of miles and a huge ocean apart. When does the madness end?

You bemoan the reaction of Islamic extremists' to the infamous cartoons and yet you draw a pathetic stick man in your siggy, label it Muhammed and call for a war against the people of Islam. I hate to say it, but YOUR extremism is showing.

Thank God, not all Jews think the way you do:

END THE OCCUPATION NOW! (http://www.icahd.org/eng/campaigns.asp?menu=4&submenu=3)

Courage to Refuse - Combatant's Letter (http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp)

I dont have these feelings towards Muslims in general.
I for one, do not believe that for a minute, especially after the mistruths that you wrote about the Muslims living in Sweden, and the call for war against ALL Muslims in your "War on Islam" thread.

I have no problem with American muslims, I just dont like arabs/muslims in the middle east.
And your solution to the "problem" would be to wipe out the Muslims in the Middle East?

BTW, are you willing to put your flesh and blood on the front line in this war that you are calling for, or are you content to be a distant cheerleader?

There are solutions to the Middle East situation but from your actions and comments, it appears that you would rather be a part of the "problem"?

you are extremely ignorant. i dont reason with ignorant people
Look in the mirror and you will see one. :rolleyes:

He/she makes a very good point. The Arab people do little to address the problems within their nations, and often propagate them. Some of them still live by the belief that destiny is pre-written, and so they should do nothing and expect Allah to provide all. Such mentalities are counter-productive. Unless the Arab people actively seek change, the Arab world will not change. They should ask themselves, why are their nations so rich and why are they so poor.

Furthermore, palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist in 1988 but the israelis has never recongnized the palestinians right to exist, even during the Camp David and Oslo negotiations.
The palestinians have, for decades, been ready for a fair compromise but has alwasy been let down in the end.

If that is what you truly belive, then how do you explain that during Barak's term as pime minister? He offered the Palestinian people 95% of their demands, including statehood, yet it was turned down because Barak refused to hand over the entirety of Jerusalem to them. This was at Camp David in 2000. The new state would have consisted of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and a small portion of the Negev. With an offer like that, you can hardly deny that they were never 'recognized'. After Arafat refused the offer, he failed to submit a counter offer and there was no resolution. How much more negotiantion can there be without the other side being willing to nagotiate?

I have a sister in-law who is Hindu im a christian i get along with her because Hindu's wont kill to make a point (plus ive known her since i was three).

I feel compelled to call bullshit on this one. I recommend asking Pakistan whether or not Hindus will kill to make a point.

Look in the mirror and you will see one. :rolleyes:

He/she makes a very good point. The Arab people do little to address the problems within their nations, and often propagate them. Some of them still live by the belief that destiny is pre-written, and so they should do nothing and expect Allah to provide all. Such mentalities are counter-productive. Unless the Arab people actively seek change, the Arab world will not change. They should ask themselves, why are their nations so rich and why are they so poor.

Very good point.

I went to Israel. We travelled all over Israel and I actually met the Arabs first hand. They just dont like you, they dont have to be terrorists or extremist or even government officials. Its just the normal Arabs that dont like Westerns. You know you travel to Israel and you can go to certain areas because the Arabs with attack you, they might snipe you, kidnap you...etc....like for instace theres a place called Hebron, and its a religious tourist site. Many tourists travel there, but the problem is the site is surrounded by arab territory. So they actually had problems with Arab snipers just picking off the civilian tourists as they walked to the tourist spot in Hebron. Also, like when you go there, you see that the Israelis, in contrast to the Arabs, are VERY appreaciative of everything that we are doing to support them, and they are just very grateful, where as the Arabs, well you can even walk to predominatly arab territory with worrying about being Sniped. Also, the Arabs there are all just kind of free loading off the system. Like if you go to East Jerusalem (which used to be Arab) all you see is Arabs laying in the streets and sidewalks...uneducated, unemployed, and just violent. Its like they dont even think as a normal human being would.

Ahhh dear me.....vintage racism..complete with the inference of actual biological difference between bigot and the subject of his/her loathing

As I pointed out in another thread, just reading your words makes me dislike you. How much worse then to see them emblazoned on your face. Its no wonder you got the reaction you did.

By the way, whens the last time an Arab sniper killed a western tourist in Hebron?

Ahhh dear me.....vintage racism..complete with the inference of actual biological difference between bigot and the subject of his/her loathing

As I pointed out in another thread, just reading your words makes me dislike you. How much worse then to see them emblazoned on your face. Its no wonder you got the reaction you did.

By the way, whens the last time an Arab sniper killed a western tourist in Hebron?

Eh, oh well. The Arabs arnt exactly saints and trust me, they dont like you at all.

No idea when the last time someone was shot was, I didnt look into, but you do have to take armored military trucks with military security to get through there.

Eh, oh well. The Arabs arnt exactly saints and trust me, they dont like you at all..

Whether I "like" them or not and the reverse is rather irrelevant, in the greater scheme of things. I actually find many aspects of muslim culture quiet alien. That, however, matters not a flying fuck either, as they have the same right to self determination other peoples do. And there are no such things as "saints" when it comes to the various nations of the world - a fact which seems to escape you.

Israel is at the time slowly whiping out the arabs in Israel, by destroying the houses they live in, leaving them on the streets. They say that they dont have a bouilding permit and that the rocky land they live on is going to be cultivated for farming. I have seen these lands (on documetary) and it did not look like good farming as nothing was growing on the dust and rocks(mostly rocks).
They even give the families a bill for destroying their house.
I dont know but I think I would be a bit pissed if somebody tore down my familys house and billed me for it.
This is ethinc clensing in slow motion.

http://www.icahd.org/eng/
And the jews should know better after ww2.


On the off chance that the Tsahal is trying to kill anyone, you can be assured that they are a not a civilian while the Israeli civilians are the people being targeted by Hamas. The terrorists in question do not go after military outposts, but rather busses and shopping malls.

You say that you have seen documentaries about Israelies taking over the houses of Arabs for farming but you are mistaken in the idea that they are not paid well, beter then you would be in the U.S. in fact, for their land. Also because the Israeli goverment provides a housing option when it is forced to relocate a community. On the subject of farming, Israel does a decent portion of their farming in the Negev, the lower desert region, using the most advanced irrigation system in the world; it is a almost completely unpopulated area that is being used for produce because Israel has little to no natural resources, no oil, and no water.

Still on the sublect of farming, anothoer good chuck of Israeli produce came from the Gaza Strip before the pull out, yet when the Israeli's left the territory they left most of it behind. Should Gaza's new resident wish to take advantage of what was left behind they are able but a thriving economy does not look as good on CNN so they refuse to make use of what is given to them.

There is no 'ethnic clensing' going on in the Middle East, or at leas the section up for discussion, there are many people clasified as 'Arab' or 'Palestinian' who are Israeli citizens and are just like everyone else in the country reguardless of religion. In fact, while Israel may be the 'Jewish State', it is illigal to discriminate based on religion for any public service, including medical care and welfare.

Its all very interesting. How can one group "own" land? I mean just look at the holy land. So many groups come and gone, and there's nothing that makes one group's claim that it's theirs any more legitamite than anothers. The Jews were not the first to inhabit the holy land, they displaced or killed the origional inhabitants, who moved north. If there was no concept of land ownership, this wouldn't be a problem.

The first man who made a fence and said this is mine.....

I personally feel for Isreal, but I'm biased because of where I live and my parents

I feel compelled to call bullshit on this one. I recommend asking Pakistan whether or not Hindus will kill to make a point.

I missed that one.

It was mentioned in an ancient thread over a town that a Hindu mob attacked.

Yes they can kill over perceived wrongs just like anybody else.....

I feel for both...Israel because of their historic and future significance, and the Palestinians because they are basically homeless in terms of nationality. Israel are allegedly God's chosen people (according to both the Jewish texts and the Christian texts), and they certainly should have some right to the Holy Land. However, they should see a bit of themselves in the Palestinians, as Israel was in the same position less than a hundred years ago. Both Israel and Palestine were forcibly driven from their respective lands, but only Israel has been reinstated as a country.
I will say this about Palestinians being originally from Jordan...the fact is, Palestinians do make up a good chunk of Jordan's population (Queen Rania is of Palestinian descent). However, Jordanians themselves are mostly Arabs, with a few pockets of Circassian and Armenian ethnic groups. As far as I'm concerned, an Arab is an Arab. I have lots of Arab family, including some from Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. I myself am of partial Jordanian descent. However, I can't say that I feel for Palestine in their way of going about this whole thing. Neither Israel nor Palestine seems to understand that the only way to fix this thing is to compromise. They're all going to be around for a long time, so they might as well learn to tolerate one another.

Eh, oh well. The Arabs arnt exactly saints and trust me, they dont like you at all.

No idea when the last time someone was shot was, I didnt look into, but you do have to take armored military trucks with military security to get through there.

In fairness, more Westerners are shot dead by the IDF then by 'Arabs'. Journalists too.

In fairness, more Westerners are shot dead by the IDF then by 'Arabs'. Journalists too.

Where do you get that idea from?

Where do you get that idea from?
Well, when you see things like this
http://www.nuj.org.uk/inner.php?docid=234
this
http://www.nuj.org.uk/inner.php?docid=577
and this
http://www.cpj.org/attacks04/mideast04/israel.html

you begin to see a pattern emerge.

Anyone who didn't select the 'too complicated' option is a helluva lot smarter than me.

war is the final decided, i hate to say it because it is bad for one side but if the Jews won it then it is theirs no matter what we do.

As for Hamas all i can say is they have become democratic that should be rewarded.

Even if they are a terror orgainsation it looks worse if we abandon the, they represent their people, if we are truly democratic society then we must accept that.

And who have a good point sorry

Firstly, while democratically elected, [and we (the west) do respect those elections] We do not HAVE TO in term continue to support them financially. We are interested in one thing... PEACE. Peace brings stability and prosperity. Hamas (on its face) does not represent this, and while we respect their democratic society, continuting finacial support would be counter productive to our own goals (quelling terrorism).

That said, unlike everyone else, I see the election of Hamas as the best possible outcome for Israel, the west and the Palestinean people....

You may wonder, how could that possibly be.

Simply look at the history... Fatah while more reasonable then Hamas, has never been able to move forward with peace because they could not control Hamas, or the terrorists around them (even in thier own party). Hamas on the other hand is well organized and coehesive. Fatah could not combat Hamas because of the undeniable support it draws from the people (for its social programs primarly).

Now in a position of power, Hamas can nolonger hide behind Fatah blaming them and Israel for all of the Palestineans problems. On the one hand, given international pressure, if they cave, and disarm and come to the peace table... then we have achieved finally what Fatah never could. On the other, if they do not, they will quickly see more then 60% of their revenues for state programs dry up. The onis will then be on them to compromise, and they (now being the representatives for Palestineans) will bare the blame. If Palestineans find themselves 2 years from now WORSE off then today (which is almost unimaginable) Hamas will not only be voted out, but their public support will have dried up.

One must look past the cloud of almost certain death, and see the rays of hope, I always say.

Where do you get that idea from?

There are incidents of accidental shootings. Reporters covering protests. A westerner protesting with the Palis.....

There are incidents of accidental shootings. Reporters covering protests. A westerner protesting with the Palis.....
There is a rather large difference between an Accicental Shooting and being a target.
Also, to put your information into perspective:

Your information says that 7 journalists were killed in Israel from 2000 to 2004 while covering protests and in high risk areas like the Gaza Strip.

36 American journalists have been kidnapped during the last two years in Iraq, some right from their hotel rooms.

Who is in more danger? This is not even counting the fact that your source says the journalists were killed, but does not say that ther were all killed by The Israeli Government.

36 American journalists have been kidnapped during the last two years in Iraq, some right from their hotel rooms.
Well that was random...

There is a rather large difference between an Accicental Shooting and being a target.


You're right actually, there is a difference.

Go Google 'James Miller'.


[This is all in response to Atlanitian Islands claim that Arabs 'sniper' Westerners in Israel/Palestine]

Well that was random...
Not entirely, someone commented on the mortality rate of western journalists in Israel and I merely attempted to give perspective.

Not entirely, someone commented on the mortality rate of western journalists in Israel and I merely attempted to give perspective.

But it doesn't apply to Israel, so it doesn't really relate, perspective or otherwise, to the point the other person was making.

You're right actually, there is a difference.

Go Google 'James Miller'.


[This is all in response to Atlanitian Islands claim that Arabs 'sniper' Westerners in Israel/Palestine]

This is one of the very good reaons why the Israeli Goverment urges foreigners to stay out of 'problem' areas, the site http://www.justice4jamesmiller.com/ confirms that he was in an area that had been the site of shootings during that day and that he was caught in a bad situation. He should not have been there to begin with, Rafa is hardly a safe place to be especially concidering that two and a half years ago was the middle of the Second Intifada. Gaza as an area was worse in 2003 then it was right before the disengagment. It is the unofficial policy that groups like that of James Miller have an armed guard with them that can be easily identified as an Israeli. While it may not be his fault he was killed, het put himself in a position that allowed it to happen.

I will, however, concede that while there used to be sniping of Westerners, that has not been common in several years because it looks bad for their public image. If you drive around near The Fence and other areas, there are remains of tanks and jeeps on the sides of the roads to remember the people who were killed while attempting to bring supplies to Jaruselem in 1967 and each was actually destroyed where it lays but that was some time ago.

If that is what you truly belive, then how do you explain that during Barak's term as pime minister? He offered the Palestinian people 95% of their demands, including statehood, yet it was turned down because Barak refused to hand over the entirety of Jerusalem to them. This was at Camp David in 2000. The new state would have consisted of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and a small portion of the Negev. With an offer like that, you can hardly deny that they were never 'recognized'. After Arafat refused the offer, he failed to submit a counter offer and there was no resolution. How much more negotiantion can there be without the other side being willing to nagotiate?

The offer from Barak consisted not of 95% of their demands, look up your facts. The offer, in short, denied the Palestinian state independance and control over its territories by splitting up the palestinian land in four different areas, denying them control over their own borders, airspace and water and allowing for illegal israeli colonies inside palestine territory. Does this sound like a fair solution for a lasting peace to you?
Arafat's counter proposal was this: United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338 which were accepted by both Israel and Palestine in Madrid in 1991 and followed up on in Oslo 1993. Not good enough for Israel? Please...

About the 95% you mentioned, I'll just quote a source:

Didn't Israel's proposal give the Palestinians almost all of the territories occupied by Israel in 1967?

No. Israel sought to annex almost 9% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories and in exchange offered only 1% of Israel's own territory. In addition, Israel sought control over an additional 10% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories in the form of a "long-term lease". However, the issue is not one of percentages - the issue is one of viability and independence. In a prison for example, 95% of the prison compound is ostensibly for the prisoners - cells, cafeterias, gym and medical facilities - but the remaining 5% is all that is needed for the prison guards to maintain control over the prisoner population.

Similarly, the Camp David proposal, while admittedly making Palestinian prison cells larger, failed to end Israeli control over the Palestinian population.

One must look past the cloud of almost certain death, and see the rays of hope, I always say.

I really like your hopeful insight :)

Its always been there...I'm Jewish. They dont like Jews, we dont like them...thus the Arab-Israeli situation is born.


Its more that we dont like what you do. You steal our land, rape our women, and blow our kids playing soccer in street with your tanks and guns for fun. Dont give us permits to build homes, and when we build them since we need a place to live, you knock them down. You set up check points that last hours for a couple minute trip while not allowing for any sort of economic development. But when someone becomes a maytr out of frustration and anger, Israel somehow comes off as the victims in the western media.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

On the off chance that the Tsahal is trying to kill anyone, you can be assured that they are a not a civilian while the Israeli civilians are the people being targeted by Hamas. The terrorists in question do not go after military outposts, but rather busses and shopping malls. .

Unlike the IDF indeed.....http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5032526-103552,00.html

Why do you think 13 UN workers have been killed by the IDF in one small area?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/4534620.stm
Are they somehow attractive to bullets?



You say that you have seen documentaries about Israelies taking over the houses of Arabs for farming but you are mistaken in the idea that they are not paid well, beter then you would be in the U.S. in fact, for their land. Also because the Israeli goverment provides a housing option when it is forced to relocate a community. On the subject of farming, Israel does a decent portion of their farming in the Negev, the lower desert region, using the most advanced irrigation system in the world; it is a almost completely unpopulated area that is being used for produce because Israel has little to no natural resources, no oil, and no water. .

It's been a long standing ambition to repopulate that area with settlers
"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (David Ben-Gurion, 1937)

"Our army will conquer the Negev, will take the land into its hands and will sell it to the JNF at 20-25 Palestinian pounds per dunam. And there is a source . . . of millions [of pounds]. Granovsky responded jokingly that we are NOT LIVING in the Middle Ages and the army does not steal land. After the war the bedouins [of the Negev] will return to their place---if they leave at all-- and will get [back] their land."
A week later, Ben-Gurion suggested to Weitz that he divest himself of:
"conventional notions . . . In the Negev we will not buy land. We will conquer it. You are forgetting that we are at war." (beb Gurion, 1948 Source -Benny Morris, p. 170"The Birth of the Palestinian refugee problem).

Being forced to sell at the point of a fun would normally be considered an illegal act, regardless of the sums involved. I'd imagine that purposefully conducting such a program that replaces one ethnic group with another violates international law as well.

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/august2002/0208015.html


Still on the sublect of farming, anothoer good chuck of Israeli produce came from the Gaza Strip before the pull out, yet when the Israeli's left the territory they left most of it behind. Should Gaza's new resident wish to take advantage of what was left behind they are able but a thriving economy does not look as good on CNN so they refuse to make use of what is given to them.
.

Yet during one of the "punitive expeditions" into Rafah, Israel targeted Arab own businesses including horticultural greenhouses. And who destroyed the Aiport?


There is no 'ethnic clensing' going on in the Middle East, or at leas the section up for discussion, there are many people clasified as 'Arab' or 'Palestinian' who are Israeli citizens and are just like everyone else in the country reguardless of religion. In fact, while Israel may be the 'Jewish State', it is illigal to discriminate based on religion for any public service, including medical care and welfare.

Really...best tell that to them, as well as the US state department....

"The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens"
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm

It is the unofficial policy that groups like that of James Miller have an armed guard with them that can be easily identified as an Israeli. While it may not be his fault he was killed, het put himself in a position that allowed it to happen.


So, in other words, if he appears to be just a pale Arab through a scope, hes fair game?

So, in other words, if he appears to be just a pale Arab through a scope, hes fair game?
thats about right, or its that hes not the only journalist killed by Israelis trying take images what the Iraelis really do and get them out to the rest of the world.

Your information says that 7 journalists were killed in Israel from 2000 to 2004 while covering protests and in high risk areas like the Gaza Strip.

.

7 Journalists, 13 UN workers, plus the NGO people (Hurendall, Corrie) and the various attempts to bump off same. With rifle fire a lot of them. Single shots, betimes....

With rifle fire a lot of them. Single shots, betimes....
What are you getting at there?

Enough With The Palastine. Those Ppl Are Sick!!

What are you getting at there?

Snipers. Scopes. Single shots. Leaves out much chance of an "accident" in a lot of cases. In mafia movie terms, I think these kind of incidents are intended to "send a message".

Snipers. Scopes. Single shots. Leaves out much chance of an "accident" in a lot of cases. In mafia movie terms, I think these kind of incidents are intended to "send a message".
"send a message" by the Israelis? I think know what you saying, and your right, I just want to make sure cause its late, hard understand whats going on lol.

Enough With The Palastine. Those Ppl Are Sick!!
In what way are they sick?

Firstly, while democratically elected, [and we (the west) do respect those elections] We do not HAVE TO in term continue to support them financially. We are interested in one thing... PEACE. Peace brings stability and prosperity. Hamas (on its face) does not represent this, and while we respect their democratic society, continuting finacial support would be counter productive to our own goals (quelling terrorism).

That said, unlike everyone else, I see the election of Hamas as the best possible outcome for Israel, the west and the Palestinean people....

You may wonder, how could that possibly be.

Simply look at the history... Fatah while more reasonable then Hamas, has never been able to move forward with peace because they could not control Hamas, or the terrorists around them (even in thier own party). Hamas on the other hand is well organized and coehesive. Fatah could not combat Hamas because of the undeniable support it draws from the people (for its social programs primarly).

Now in a position of power, Hamas can nolonger hide behind Fatah blaming them and Israel for all of the Palestineans problems. On the one hand, given international pressure, if they cave, and disarm and come to the peace table... then we have achieved finally what Fatah never could. On the other, if they do not, they will quickly see more then 60% of their revenues for state programs dry up. The onis will then be on them to compromise, and they (now being the representatives for Palestineans) will bare the blame. If Palestineans find themselves 2 years from now WORSE off then today (which is almost unimaginable) Hamas will not only be voted out, but their public support will have dried up.

One must look past the cloud of almost certain death, and see the rays of hope, I always say.
I have rarely agreed with your posts in the past, but I can agree with you for the most part on your above statements.

It is time for a fresh new approach and given the opportunity, they (Hamas) just might accomplish the unthinkable (a peace agreement that both sides can live with).