NationStates Jolt Archive

Has anyone else noticed this "vegetarian" craze spreading? More and more people around me are starting to cut meat and dairy out of their diets, or become complete vegans. I'm wondering why...does one person really make a difference when 50 other people around them are eating KFC and Meat Lovers pizzas like mad? I've been "lectured" by others for contributing to the greenhouse effect (cows), killing the rainforests/destroying grasslands, or supporting an "inhumane industry."

And there are also those who are Anti-Vegan too ("For every cow you don't eat, I'll eat FIFTY!"). What are your thoughts on meat vs no meat, fellow NS-ers? :confused:

Has anyone else noticed this "vegetarian" craze spreading? More and more people around me are starting to cut meat and dairy out of their diets, or become complete vegans. I'm wondering why...does one person really make a difference when 50 other people around them are eating KFC and Meat Lovers pizzas like mad? I've been "lectured" by others for contributing to the greenhouse effect (cows), killing the rainforests/destroying grasslands, or supporting an "inhumane industry."

And there are also those who are Anti-Vegan too ("For every cow you don't eat, I'll eat FIFTY!"). What are your thoughts on meat vs no meat, fellow NS-ers? :confused:
I support vegetarianism but not complete veganism because even though it is bad for the environment to eat meat and the meat industry is unexplainably cruel, pure veganism may produce a lack af nutrients of certain types in the body unless the deficiency is made up for by eating a lot of a vegan food that can replace other stuff. For example, meat eaters say vegetarians can't get protein, but even a vegan can eat beans or nuts, which have a good amount of protein in them. There are also supplements. I wouldn't go around trying to convert other people though.

I heard there are certain amino acids that we can only get from meat, but others have said you can get them from select vegetables too. I just don't like the idea of taking supplements. I do eat meat, but when I have the choice, I usually take something else over it.

If not eating meat makes people happy, sure, why not?

It doesn't matter.

Omnivores are superior to both

I think I'm just criticizing those vegetarians/vegans who try to impose their beliefs on others. Not all do, certainly, but many have tried to get me to "change my ways."

(I agree, whatever makes you happy...but not necessarily healthy :) )

I've been pure veg. for 9 years. I see it as a personal choice that shouldn't be pushed onto others. That said, I only date fellow veggies. Can one person make a difference? Of course! I've saved hundreds of cows if not more. I think that's worth something. It is to me, anyway. As for health, there's not much debating that vegetarianism is healthy. It's a lifestyle thing. I don't agree with vegans or veggies judging carnivores, nor do I agree with carnivores judging veggies. To each his/her own. I choose Vegetarianism.

I've been pure veg. for 9 years. I see it as a personal choice that shouldn't be pushed onto others. That said, I only date fellow veggies. Can one person make a difference? Of course! I've saved hundreds of cows if not more. I think that's worth something. It is to me, anyway. As for health, there's not much debating that vegetarianism is healthy. It's a lifestyle thing. I don't agree with vegans or veggies judging carnivores, nor do I agree with carnivores judging veggies. To each his/her own. I choose Vegetarianism.

Why only fellow "veggies"?

I support vegetarianism but not complete veganism because even though it is bad for the environment to eat meat and the meat industry is unexplainably cruel,
Forgive my ignorance, but how, other thatn the dubious effects of methane, does meat eating and herding impact the environment? The way i look at it, as it stands with people eating meat, the countryside isn't totally dominated by arable farms. Instead we get pastureland which isn't all that disruptive to local ecosystems and things like hill sheep farming which again doesn't seem to have much of an environmental impact.

Why only fellow "veggies"?

Fellow veggies have a similar moral fiber to my own.

The way I see it we all are vegetarian. We are what we eat, right? Since cows eat grass, then they are grass; so, when you eat a cow, you're eating grass.

Forgive my ignorance, but how, other thatn the dubious effects of methane, does meat eating and herding impact the environment? The way i look at it, as it stands with people eating meat, the countryside isn't totally dominated by arable farms. Instead we get pastureland which isn't all that disruptive to local ecosystems and things like hill sheep farming which again doesn't seem to have much of an environmental impact.

Ah yes, methane. Cow farts. I think a lot of farmland is devoted solely to grain, solely for the feeding of cattle and such, which we then eat. This girl who is a vegan at my school was saying how if we didn't eat the cattle that ate that grain, the grain could be used to feed so many more people without so much waste either.

Pastureland and farming has destroyed much of the native grasslands in the middle of the US (did a project on it), so if you're one of those people who are all for protecting ecosystems and biomes, that would be an alarm.

Fellow veggies have a similar moral fiber to my own.

Pun. Intended or not?

Pun. Intended or not?

How punniful.

Moral fiber? Is it being implied that vegetarians are more moral than those who eat meat?

Pun. Intended or not?

When I wrote that I was seriously wondering if anyone would catch that. *Unsure* :D

When I wrote that I was seriously wondering if anyone would catch that. *Unsure* :D

Well, I did. Me, Mr. Nutrition Science Minor.

Well, I did. Me, Mr. Nutrition Science Minor.

What do you do and learn as a nutrition science minor? Gah, I am surrounded by so many older people. I might take AP Environmental Science next year as a senior, but I'm still not sure about that.

What do you do and learn as a nutrition science minor? Gah, I am surrounded by so many older people. I might take AP Environmental Science next year as a senior, but I'm still not sure about that.

You learn about food. It's alot more complex than most people realise.

I think a lot of farmland is devoted solely to grain, solely for the feeding of cattle and such, which we then eat.

http://www.soystache.com/environm.htm

SO many numbers > < But thanks for the link.

Well, I did. Me, Mr. Nutrition Science Minor.

My Dad's family's from Lansing. Used to go visit and watch the black bears at the city dump. ..Do you know the Wilsons? j/k. That's a cool subject that I could probably get into myself, although I'm going into something else right now. Are you veggie, or just healthily moderate in your meat uptake? And what was your major I wonder.

Ah yes, methane. Cow farts. I think a lot of farmland is devoted solely to grain, solely for the feeding of cattle and such, which we then eat. This girl who is a vegan at my school was saying how if we didn't eat the cattle that ate that grain, the grain could be used to feed so many more people without so much waste either.

Maybe this is a matter of perspective I suppose. I come from the north of England which has traditionally had a heavy reliance on cattle and sheep grazing rather than arable, because it is too wet and/or hilly to allow many crops to be grown effectively. So in that respect there is no wastage.

Pastureland and farming has destroyed much of the native grasslands in the middle of the US (did a project on it), so if you're one of those people who are all for protecting ecosystems and biomes, that would be an alarm.
I think there are potential problems from any farming techniqes if poorly managed. The dustbowls in the US for example were caused by arable farming.

i think that veganism can be a very good thing when done correctly and carefully, but it's stupid to project your feelings about every which way at the top of your voice. People should just do what they want and leave it at that. There's no point in arguing, right?

I've been thinking about going vegetarian, though I doubt I could pull it off. Given the rise of mad cow disease and so on, it wouldn't be a particularly bad idea simply for risk minimizing. As an added bonus, I suspect that in the future, eating meat will be viewed the same way being anti-semitic is now.

Really? I've never heard that before. How far in the future, do you suppose?

US is usually the definition of wasteful. Like on garbage days, my neighbors have soooo much piled up, and a lot of perfectly good toys and furniture are also tossed out. Eh.

Really? I've never heard that before. How far in the future, do you suppose?

US is usually the definition of wasteful. Like on garbage days, my neighbors have soooo much piled up, and a lot of perfectly good toys and furniture are also tossed out. Eh.

Save those toys, and give them to your local kitbasher to make new, interesting toys!

Also, I'm pro-carnivore.

Save those toys, and give them to your local kitbasher to make new, interesting toys!

Also, I'm pro-carnivore.
Or you can sell the.m at garage sales.

Me, I'm a who gives a fuck what anyone else eats so long as it isn't someone I know;)

Me, I'm a who gives a fuck what anyone else eats so long as it isn't someone I know;)
Meh, for me it's as long as it's not someone who owes me money.

Forgive my ignorance, but how, other thatn the dubious effects of methane, does meat eating and herding impact the environment? The way i look at it, as it stands with people eating meat, the countryside isn't totally dominated by arable farms. Instead we get pastureland which isn't all that disruptive to local ecosystems and things like hill sheep farming which again doesn't seem to have much of an environmental impact.
I'm pretty sure about this stuff, but if it's false, maybe it's propaganda from the type of stuff I read.
-A very high percentage of land used for farming is used either to take care of animals eaten for meat or to grow feed for them.
-Farmed animals competing with native species for grazing land has led to the extinction of a few species.
-Slaughterhouses create a lot of pollution.
-Because they burn off energy through metabolic processes, cows don't give as much meat as it takes to feed them, making them an inefficient use for land.

And just a tip for all people who must have meat but don't want it coming from cannibalistic cows, look for meat that is advertised as grain-fed.

I'm pretty sure about this stuff, but if it's false, maybe it's propaganda from the type of stuff I read.
-A very high percentage of land used for farming is used either to take care of animals eaten for meat or to grow feed for them.
-Farmed animals competing with native species for grazing land has led to the extinction of a few species.
-Slaughterhouses create a lot of pollution.
-Because they burn off energy through metabolic processes, cows don't give as much meat as it takes to feed them, making them an inefficient use for land.

And just a tip for all people who must have meat but don't want it coming from cannibalistic cows, look for meat that is advertised as grain-fed.


Just one major scientific gripe with the third bulleted point: Cows can not store more energy in their bodies than they consume.

It's not unreasonable to expect them to do so... it's ridiculous.

It's impossible for any organism to merely store all the energy they take in. Not even plants do that.

I'm pretty sure about this stuff, but if it's false, maybe it's propaganda from the type of stuff I read.
-A very high percentage of land used for farming is used either to take care of animals eaten for meat or to grow feed for them.
-Farmed animals competing with native species for grazing land has led to the extinction of a few species.
-Slaughterhouses create a lot of pollution.
-Because they burn off energy through metabolic processes, cows don't give as much meat as it takes to feed them, making them an inefficient use for land.

And just a tip for all people who must have meat but don't want it coming from cannibalistic cows, look for meat that is advertised as grain-fed.
Like I said above it seems that they do the whole livestock farming slightly differently in the Uk as opposed to the US and so many of the problems aren't as evident. I'm not an expert in much of this stuff so I'm cadging it off websites and working from memory. Because we have good grazing land, which in many places isn't suited to arable crops due to its wetness we don't need to rely on separate grain sources as feed so much. Likewise the waste protein etc. that the cow doesn't turn into muscle just gets excreted back onto the field and back into the ecosystem, so can't really be said to be wasted. Furthermore the slow progress of grazing cattle is less disruptive to local wildlife than combine harvesters turning up and cutting everything down. From no lesser organ than the RSPB (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds), I get the quote "Livestock farming has a major influence on the UK's wildlife and landscapes; many of our most important birds, habitats and landscape features are the result of, and depend on, grazing by cattle and sheep."
http://www.rspb.org.uk/countryside/farming/farmingUK/livestock_farming.asp

Has anyone else noticed this "vegetarian" craze spreading? More and more people around me are starting to cut meat and dairy out of their diets, or become complete vegans. I'm wondering why...does one person really make a difference when 50 other people around them are eating KFC and Meat Lovers pizzas like mad? I've been "lectured" by others for contributing to the greenhouse effect (cows), killing the rainforests/destroying grasslands, or supporting an "inhumane industry."

And there are also those who are Anti-Vegan too ("For every cow you don't eat, I'll eat FIFTY!"). What are your thoughts on meat vs no meat, fellow NS-ers? :confused:
Well, I don't think it's really spreading as much as people are trying to rationalize being too cheap to buy meat. Face it: meat's expensive and rather than admit to being cheap, it's much cooler to try to convince everyone that you really don't like meat so that's why you don't eat it.

I blame cartoon animals for vegetarianism.

You all knew it was coming: Guiltless Grill. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill)

Meat? Vegetables?

What are those?

Alcoholic beverages and unfiltered cigarettes are all I ingest!



just kidding, just kidding




If it tastes good, I eat it.

Eat whatever the hell you want.

Life is too short to give a shit about a cow, the environment, or some whiney hippie.

Eat whatever the hell you want. Life is too short to give a shit about a cow, the environment, or some whiney hippie.

Or you. :)

I like my meat. Especially my bacon.

But then again, I also love my sugar. And sugar comes from plants.
So make your call.

People can eat all the greens they want, it doesn't bother me. In fact, it means that there's more dead animals for me to eat.

I'm just of the opinion, that apart from the fact that it tastes good, humans are omnivores and should act accordingly. Also, I'm really frustrated by people who think that they have the high moral ground just because they are a vegetarian/vegan/hippy.

Has anyone else noticed this "vegetarian" craze spreading? More and more people around me are starting to cut meat and dairy out of their diets, or become complete vegans. I'm wondering why...does one person really make a difference when 50 other people around them are eating KFC and Meat Lovers pizzas like mad? I've been "lectured" by others for contributing to the greenhouse effect (cows), killing the rainforests/destroying grasslands, or supporting an "inhumane industry."

And there are also those who are Anti-Vegan too ("For every cow you don't eat, I'll eat FIFTY!"). What are your thoughts on meat vs no meat, fellow NS-ers? :confused:

i can be grotesquely hungover from a coke/booze binge(kidding) and i can always eat a ny strip steak...anything else makes me vomit.

seriously..i can always eat a steak..no matter how ill i feel..anything else..hmmpf

"Guiltless grill" is probably the single stupidest term I've ever heard of. What the hell makes them think that I feel guilty from eating *gasp!* an animal?

I heard there are certain amino acids that we can only get from meat, but others have said you can get them from select vegetables too. I just don't like the idea of taking supplements.

First, I'm not attacking you, Starps, but the common claim about vegans/vegetarians and supplements. (there's only one single vitamine which is impossible to get from straight vegan diet, but let's forget these details for a while) 99% of my friends, relatives, people I know, don't have a perfect diet, I for example don't get enough calcium. Yet people who eat only pizza and burgers claim that veganism is not good for you because you have to take supplements. Rather hypocritical.

I eat meat about 4 times a week but I should cut it down to 2 days a week.

More people need to start eating meat for a number of reasons:
1. Its delicious!
2. The more demand for meat the higher the prices on my livestock

meat contains very important nutrients that your body needs! vegetarians are depriving their body of these much needed nutrients

when you eat plants, do you not realize that ants were killed as a result of the harvesting of the plant? (because of the pesticides). what makes you say that an ant is less important than a cow, when you dont feel that a cow is less important than a human?

Omnivores are superior to both

Indeed. For some reason I doubt that anyone posting in this thread truly is a carnivore. Hell - few people eat meat daily; they eat carrion.

I suspect that in the future, eating meat will be viewed the same way being anti-semitic is now.
This is the reason why I am so ardent not only against vegetarianism :mp5: (which I consider a rape on the human nature) but also against vegetarians :sniper: . I suspect we, the omnivores, will be soon hunted down like smokers or WASPs are, if the frenzy is not stopped.

Like I said above it seems that they do the whole livestock farming slightly differently in the Uk as opposed to the US and so many of the problems aren't as evident. I'm not an expert in much of this stuff so I'm cadging it off websites and working from memory. Because we have good grazing land, which in many places isn't suited to arable crops due to its wetness we don't need to rely on separate grain sources as feed so much. Likewise the waste protein etc. that the cow doesn't turn into muscle just gets excreted back onto the field and back into the ecosystem, so can't really be said to be wasted. Furthermore the slow progress of grazing cattle is less disruptive to local wildlife than combine harvesters turning up and cutting everything down. From no lesser organ than the RSPB (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds), I get the quote "Livestock farming has a major influence on the UK's wildlife and landscapes; many of our most important birds, habitats and landscape features are the result of, and depend on, grazing by cattle and sheep."
http://www.rspb.org.uk/countryside/farming/farmingUK/livestock_farming.asp

Same here... and in most of Europe. The European landscape has been altered over millenia to suit the needs of humans, most of it's forests have been cut down to make room for grazing cattle and sheep (well, and for building material and fuel, too). So the landscape we see today actually needs constant grazing to survive.
One very good example in Ireland would be the Burren (http://www.burrenbeo.com/burren-agriculture-overview.aspx?objID=Gallery). It is a unique and ecologically protected area. Conservationist recently found that this piece of natural beauty was actually threatened by too little grazing. The eco system there had evolved on a grazed-off, rocky landscape, and with the grass growing back, some plants that are actually unique to this area started to struggle for survival....

Indeed. For some reason I doubt that anyone posting in this thread truly is a carnivore. Hell - few people eat meat daily; they eat carrion.

Thats right, if you think about eat we eat carrion, meat thats been dead for a while, so that would make us scavangers, since we don't kill our meat ourselves

And you know what the worst argument for veganism is? When they say that humans were designed to be herbivours. Yes. That's why we have canine teeth. To tear up LETTUCE. Right.

And you know what the worst argument for veganism is? When they say that humans were designed to be herbivours. Yes. That's why we have canine teeth. To tear up LETTUCE. Right.

To be honest, most carnivores would laugh themselves silly at the sight of what we call our canines. Humans were designed to be omnivores, although with a very clear preference for fruit and vegetables, with meat thrown into the diet maybe once or twice a year.

To be honest, most carnivores would laugh themselves silly at the sight of what we call our canines. Humans were designed to be omnivores, although with a very clear preference for fruit and vegetables, with meat thrown into the diet maybe once or twice a year.

Oh, no doubt that carnivores have much stronger and sharper teeth. But humans were definitely designed to eat meat.

Although I disagree with "once or twice a year." More like once or twice a week.

Oh, no doubt that carnivores have much stronger and sharper teeth. But humans were definitely designed to eat meat.

Although I disagree with "once or twice a year." More like once or twice a week.

You were talking about what we were designed for, not what our preferences are ;)

You were talking about what we were designed for, not what our preferences are ;)

I think that I'm closer to the true human specifications than you. Eating meat twice a year wouldn't give you any of the meaty benefits.

why do vegans always look so pale and ill when i see them? :confused:

why do vegans always look so pale and ill when i see them? :confused:

Some probably simply like the look. The form of Goth for instance that does not think (their) human life is anything special tends to have far more respect for other things that feel and live - like animals.

Oh, no doubt that carnivores have much stronger and sharper teeth. But humans were definitely designed to eat meat.

Although I disagree with "once or twice a year." More like once or twice a week.

I have a hard time envisioning early hominids bringing down game animals before the invention of tools/weapons, which happened late in our development. Meat was a useful food source for early man during the ice age, but I don't think we were built to eat meat. We are a primate, and apart from the baboon, the great apes are vegetarians one and all.

I'm a vegetarian because I love animals, and if I can live and be healthy without harming them, so much the better.

Lamb is just too good not to eat. :)

Baboons kill stuff quite efficiently. They're primates.

I agree that oomies should eat a balanced diet, with meat. However, once or twice a year? C'mon.

Has anyone else noticed this "vegetarian" craze spreading? More and more people around me are starting to cut meat and dairy out of their diets, or become complete vegans. I'm wondering why...does one person really make a difference when 50 other people around them are eating KFC and Meat Lovers pizzas like mad? I've been "lectured" by others for contributing to the greenhouse effect (cows), killing the rainforests/destroying grasslands, or supporting an "inhumane industry."

And there are also those who are Anti-Vegan too ("For every cow you don't eat, I'll eat FIFTY!"). What are your thoughts on meat vs no meat, fellow NS-ers? :confused:
We're Omnivores, a well balanced diet is the best.

Vegetarians always look weak, skinny, pale and generally unhealthy to me - so i'm pretty glad i'm an omnivore.

The way I see it - animals just plain aren't as complex as humans. They don't understand things like 'freedom', 'their true nature' and so on. They just respond to the enviroment around them. They have simple needs and simple desires - if you provide them these things and give them a longish life then slaughter them as painlessly as possible, do you think they have had a worse life than living in the wild? Look at it realisitically - for many wild animals life is horrible compared to life being raised by humans. You're likely to be eaten alive or starve to death. That won't happen on a farm. I do disagree with the way some animals are treated - especially the more intelligent ones like pigs, but I don't see anything inherantly wrong with raising animals for food.

As for those who talk about animal rights - with rights come responsibility. We discussed this in a practical ethics module I took last semester - there was a town in Normandy in the middle ages that did try to give animals the same legal rights as humans. So, soon enough a pig gets put on trial for stealing apples from a market stall. It gets hung as a result. Then a cat gets convicted for tormenting a mouse before eating it alive - it also gets hung. Some rats were summoned to court for soiling some grain, but didn't attend. The rats lawyers argued that the rats couldn't be expected to attend court, as the town could not guarentee their safety in getting there past potential predators.

So obviously animals don't understand the concept of responsibility, so it would be cruel to give them rights and expect them to respect the rights of others. They are not members of what some call the 'moral community' - and although they should be treated with respect and not deliberately mistreated, should not be given rights like humans.

They have simple needs and simple desires - if you provide them these things and give them a longish life then slaughter them as painlessly as possible, do you think they have had a worse life than living in the wild?

Of course, that in practice does not happen. Bio-industry does not provide animals with their basic desires - it instead mutilates them. The painless killing after a longish life is also out. Young meat is after all more tender, and a meat grinder so much more efficient.
Animals may not be able to understand concepts as rights, freedom etc - but they sure understand misery, pain and suffering.

Look at it realisitically - for many wild animals life is horrible compared to life being raised by humans. You're likely to be eaten alive or starve to death.

Of course, the important difference is that that misery is not caused by humans.

As for those who talk about animal rights - with rights come responsibility. We discussed this in a practical ethics module I took last semester - there was a town in Normandy in the middle ages that did try to give animals the same legal rights as humans.

I assume your course also pointed out the flaw in this reasoning ?
Animals cannot be anything but animals. Humans can. That means one can judge the way the human behaves towards the animals.
Does that mean everyone must be vegetarian and can no longer eat meat ?
No. But one can ask oneself if their steak is worth the suffering it caused. If you say yes - enjoy your meal. But think about it first.

So obviously animals don't understand the concept of responsibility, so it would be cruel to give them rights and expect them to respect the rights of others. They are not members of what some call the 'moral community' - and although they should be treated with respect and not deliberately mistreated, should not be given rights like humans.

Are human babies and the mentally handicapped not members of the moral community either ? Or those humans who never heard of rights ?

I have a hard time envisioning early hominids bringing down game animals before the invention of tools/weapons, which happened late in our development. Meat was a useful food source for early man during the ice age, but I don't think we were built to eat meat. We are a primate, and apart from the baboon, the great apes are vegetarians one and all.

What about chimpanzees? If you ever get the chance watch a wildlife programme showing chimpanzees hunting and killing monkeys. It's very instructive the way they do it using team work, flushing the monkeys out surrounding them. They also raid other chimpanzee groups and beat the crap out of them, and can occasionally go mental and start eating children, but that's not strictly relevant.

Of course, that in practice does not happen. Bio-industry does not provide animals with their basic desires - it instead mutilates them. The painless killing after a longish life is also out. Young meat is after all more tender, and a meat grinder so much more efficient.
Animals may not be able to understand concepts as rights, freedom etc - but they sure understand misery, pain and suffering.

Which is why I agree that farm animals should be given far better treatment, especially the more intelligent ones. I always buy free range eggs, and British meat, which I know guarentees the animals a relatively high quality of life.


I assume your course also pointed out the flaw in this reasoning ?
Animals cannot be anything but animals. Humans can. That means one can judge the way the human behaves towards the animals.
Does that mean everyone must be vegetarian and can no longer eat meat ?
No. But one can ask oneself if their steak is worth the suffering it caused. If you say yes - enjoy your meal. But think about it first.

A similar counter argument was presented, but the point about rights and responsibilities still stands. I still firmly believe that animals should not have rights as such, but it is certainly immoral to deliberately mistreat them or give them a bad quality of life. I care more about intelligent animals though - I see doing something like locking up a chimp far far worse to locking up a chicken. It's why I especially prefer pigs to be treated well - pigs being the most intelligent livestock.


Are human babies and the mentally handicapped not members of the moral community either ? Or those humans who never heard of rights ?

The baby and the human who has never heard of rights are easily explained - they have the potential to learn about rights and adopt responsibilities to respect the rights of others at a later date. Most mentally handicapped people can understand the basic idea of right and wrong and not harming others or stealing for example. Those that have absolutely no consideration for others and see nothing wrong with murder, stealing etc are locked up anyway and not given the same kind of autonomy as others, just like animals shouldn't be given the same autonomy.

What about chimpanzees? If you ever get the chance watch a wildlife programme showing chimpanzees hunting and killing monkeys. It's very instructive the way they do it using team work, flushing the monkeys out surrounding them. They also raid other chimpanzee groups and beat the crap out of them, and can occasionally go mental and start eating children, but that's not strictly relevant.
That's more of an argument for the position that warfare is not limited to humans etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that we should "do as the animals do", etc., I'm just doing my part to reduce my impact on the environment. Also, because I am human, and can make choices about my diet, I choose to be merciful. An animal in the wild has less of a choice.

What about chimpanzees? If you ever get the chance watch a wildlife programme showing chimpanzees hunting and killing monkeys. It's very instructive the way they do it using team work, flushing the monkeys out surrounding them. They also raid other chimpanzee groups and beat the crap out of them, and can occasionally go mental and start eating children, but that's not strictly relevant.

True - chimpanzees are quite an aggressive type of ape. I used to watch "Monkey Business" on TV all the time - about a primate rescue centre in the south of England. It forever gave me a massive amount of respect for primates - they are so obviously very intelligent and have very complex social relationships with others and humans. They have their own quirks, can learn to immitate humans and everything. One used to sweep their own indoor room clean and clean the windows, another had a tobacco addiction and used to roll up pieces of grass and immitate sucking them whenever he saw someone smoking. Another had being physically abused so bad he only had three teeth and was a little bit mental - but was still one of the kindest and friendliest chimps there. I visited the place myself once on holiday.

However, the chimps often got into fights a lot. I often thought the world would be a lot better off if we had evolved from Orangatans, who are considerably more thoughtful, ponderous and considerate than chimps. They very rarely fight, but on the other hand tend to be less social than chimps.

I have a hard time envisioning early hominids bringing down game animals before the invention of tools/weapons, which happened late in our development. Meat was a useful food source for early man during the ice age, but I don't think we were built to eat meat. We are a primate, and apart from the baboon, the great apes are vegetarians one and all.

I'm a vegetarian because I love animals, and if I can live and be healthy without harming them, so much the better.

The great apes are vegetarians huh? Actually chimps have been know to eat termites and will sometimes kill and eat small monkeys.

sorry, yossarian i guess you already covered that pont, I missed your post

I've been pure veg. for 9 years. I see it as a personal choice that shouldn't be pushed onto others. That said, I only date fellow veggies. Can one person make a difference? Of course! I've saved hundreds of cows if not more. I think that's worth something. It is to me, anyway. As for health, there's not much debating that vegetarianism is healthy. It's a lifestyle thing. I don't agree with vegans or veggies judging carnivores, nor do I agree with carnivores judging veggies. To each his/her own. I choose Vegetarianism.

you've saved the cows?

were they happier to die of starvation, or cancer, or heart disease, or dysentery (sp?)?

hehe

I've been pure veg. for 9 years. I see it as a personal choice that shouldn't be pushed onto others. That said, I only date fellow veggies. Can one person make a difference? Of course! I've saved hundreds of cows if not more. I think that's worth something. It is to me, anyway. As for health, there's not much debating that vegetarianism is healthy. It's a lifestyle thing. I don't agree with vegans or veggies judging carnivores, nor do I agree with carnivores judging veggies. To each his/her own. I choose Vegetarianism.


On what basis do you think you've saved even one cow?

Do you think that by not ordering a cheeseburger, the beef comes back to life?

They don't kill cows to order. The cows are killed regardless of whether you eat the end product.

sorry, yossarian i guess you already covered that pont, I missed your post
No problem; you've probably watched the same sorts of documentaries as me. Have you ever seen one where they have Infra-red footage of a chimpanzee monkey-hunting expedition? Clever little buggers, you can see the way they plan the whole thing driving them and surrounding them. Almost human. :)

To be honest, most carnivores would laugh themselves silly at the sight of what we call our canines. Humans were designed to be omnivores, although with a very clear preference for fruit and vegetables, with meat thrown into the diet maybe once or twice a year.
70,000 years ago, when modern humans first appeared, we did not have ships and airplanes and oil to be able to combine this grain from this part of the world with this legume from that part of the world with this bean from yet another part of the world in order to get a whole protein from plants. Humans need a lot of whole protein to survive. We hunted everyday and ate meat everyday. Those that were not able to get enough meat died in most cases from malnutrition.

You can actually see it in our evolution. Whe we first started making tools, probably to get into the marrow of bones to scavange from teh kills of other animals, we were not much bigger than chimpanzees. As we started to get better and better at making tools we were able to hunt for our own kills and get more higher quality meat. At the same time we started to get bigger and bigger and our brains did, too. Eventually we started to rely on meat to give us the calories and high quality proteins we need to run our big bodies and our brains.

This is still the case today. Oil and the industrial revolution has made eating as a vegetarian possible, but I have a challenge for any vegetarian. Try to maintain a vegetarian diet based solely on locally grown, native plants. Don't do it for too long, though, cause you'll start losing your teeth and become very unhealthy.

No problem; you've probably watched the same sorts of documentaries as me. Have you ever seen one where they have Infra-red footage of a chimpanzee monkey-hunting expedition? Clever little buggers, you can see the way they plan the whole thing driving them and surrounding them. Almost human. :)

Yes, I think I have seen that footage before. The way they go to war makes you think that some of our worse traits like warfare could be ingrained in us. Since we do share over 98% of our DNA with them. And does anyone know if Orangs, like chimps, ever eat other small animals or if they're completely vegitarian?

I have a hard time envisioning early hominids bringing down game animals before the invention of tools/weapons, which happened late in our development. Meat was a useful food source for early man during the ice age, but I don't think we were built to eat meat. We are a primate, and apart from the baboon, the great apes are vegetarians one and all.
I wouldn't call the last 2 million years of evolution "late development." It's almost one third of the whole thing, and when the most dramatic changes in brain size took place.

We are not suited to go without fruit and vegetables, we need them. We don't *need* meat in quite the same way, but are perfectly adapted to eat some quantities of it just the same. Problem is when some people eat 500 g of meat, 50 g of vegetables, 1 kg of white bread and french fries, and call it a balanced diet.

I guess I have to admit to being a hypocrit on this issue. I eat meat, love meat but for the most part I think meat-eating is wrong. If animals were raised and killed humanely (free to roam within reasonable limits and killed painlessly) then it wouldn't bother me (as much). However, in the real world, being humane is inefficient and unprofitable. So if you're to bet on being humane versus making a profit, bet on making a profit.

On what basis do you think you've saved even one cow?

On the basis of consumerism.

Oh, I was forgetting. A very important difference between us and our hunter ancestors is that they hunted down their food. They chased and fought the animal, which means they got a lot of exercise out of it and needed a larger intake of meat to sustain that activity.

Nowadays most of the exercise to get food involves pushing the cart to the car in the parking lot.

On general purpose, I love meat, and have no moral qualms about eating meat. We did evolve from hunter/gatherers after all (or if you believe in creationism, were 'created' as hunter gatherers.). It's in our nature.

However, I totally understand the animal welfare movement (please note, not the animal rights movement) regarding the nature of factory farming, needless animal testing, etc.

Fur Farms: (not for faint-hearted)
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=fur_farm&Player=wm&speed=_med

I'm an omnivore with a tendency towards carnivore but I'm trying to cut down on my meat-devouring habits and get in contact with my inner herbivore. Sometimes, the herb part already works pretty well :p

BTW, where would chocolate belong?!?

Fur Farms: (not for faint-hearted)
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=fur_farm&Player=wm&speed=_med

What has this got to do with eating animals-all I can see is some people laying the smackdown on some raccoons

Off-topic fun:

http://www.angryflower.com/vsthev.gif

What has this got to do with eating animals-all I can see is some people laying the smackdown on some raccoons

If you think the cows and chickens and pigs you eat get treated any differently, you're sadly mistaken.

Wow, I didn't think this thread would get so many replies.

What about fish? People mention land-eating animals, but what about those in the sea? o_O

What about fish? People mention land-eating animals, but what about those in the sea? o_O

The whole thing's a bloody disaster. The whole thing. The sea, the land, the air. It's no wonder there's war all over the place. We have no respect for life anymore.

On the basis of consumerism.

?

How does consumerism mean that if you don't eat a hamburger, a cow doesn't get slaughtered?

Do you really think someone at a cattle ranch is going to notice and say, "Oh, Bob over in Idaho decided against getting the Happy Meal today. So don't kill that cow, Billy Bob!"?

How does consumerism mean that if you don't eat a hamburger, a cow doesn't get slaughtered?

If I don't buy the burgers every day, the restaurant doesn't go through as much meat. They don't order as much. The supplier doesn't order as much. Etc. Etc. Do you understand? *Sign Language* ?

The whole thing's a bloody disaster. The whole thing. The sea, the land, the air. It's no wonder there's war all over the place. We have no respect for life anymore.
It's nature's fault. Nature used to kill us (and still does) with hurricanes, earthquakes, ice ages, mamooth stampedes, etc. So that made us all paranoid.

Stupid nature. Down with it, I say!

If I don't buy the burgers every day, the restaurant doesn't go through as much meat. They don't order as much. The supplier doesn't order as much. Etc. Etc. Do you understand? *Sign Language* ?

This is a little like saying if I don't buy an ounce of cocaine, some shit-poor Columbian cocaine factory worker is freed from his tyrannical masters and enters a life of independence and good compensation.

The restaraunt gets so much meat, in such quantities, that whether *you* personally order a hamburger one day or the next is NOT going to make a single damn difference.

I think it's really special that you believe you're saving cows by not eating meat, but the only thing you're doing is self-righteously taking credit for shit you don't accomplish in order to assuage your guilty conscience over being human.

I think it's really special that you believe you're saving cows by not eating meat, but the only thing you're doing is self-righteously taking credit for shit you don't accomplish in order to assuage your guilty conscience over being human.

Okay. I don't save cows. Nor do I kill them. I'm just kind of.. not in the scene at all, which is good. I'm not a self-righteous person. My guilty conscience, to me, means that I _AM_ human. Et toi, Brutus?

Or you. :)

Awww ... now that was just rude. I happen to be a whiney hippie. :p

Et toi, Brutus?

"Et tu, Brute?" :p

(sorry)

Okay. I don't save cows. Nor do I kill them. I'm just kind of.. not in the scene at all, which is good. I'm not a self-righteous person. My guilty conscience, to me, means that I _AM_ human. Et toi, Brutus?

Alright.

"And don't call me Brutus."

"Et tu, Brute?" :p

(sorry)

*HAHAHA!!* Damn. Been a while, aey. Thanx. :D

I don't have a problem with vegetarianism. I simply don't care if they keep it too themselves. It's their choice, let them.

When they try to force it on me by saying that humans were never supposed to eat meat and its morally wrong to eat meat, a little science shuts those idiots up.

EDIT: As for the "vegan craze" being referred in the first post, I haven't seen anything similar where I live. No matter; it's just a fad, methinks.

yay for omnivoars(sp) :)

I support vegetarianism but not complete veganism because even though it is bad for the environment to eat meat and the meat industry is unexplainably cruel, pure veganism may produce a lack af nutrients of certain types in the body unless the deficiency is made up for by eating a lot of a vegan food that can replace other stuff. For example, meat eaters say vegetarians can't get protein, but even a vegan can eat beans or nuts, which have a good amount of protein in them. There are also supplements. I wouldn't go around trying to convert other people though.

Actually, it's been shown that crop agriculture is worse for the environment than beef-based agriculture. Putting land under vegetable crops has resulted in the extinction of whole species of insects (I know, they're not cute and cuddly) and small mammals. Additionally, we use more oil energy to produce crops than we get in crop returns. Fertilizer runoff flows into the ocean causing massive algal bloom and resultant fish die-off. And, finally, the biomass production of properly maintained grazing land is much greater (as much as 20-fold) than land put under crops.

For each you'll save by being vegetarian, I'll eat 3 ...

the only reasons I can accept for someone not eating meat are :

- they don't like the taste
- they are un danger if doing so
- ... you got it

It should be omnivore as humans just dinnae have the capacity to run on meat and fat alone.

I really like meat, but *exclusively* pork, nothing else! No fish either!

For each you'll save by being vegetarian, I'll eat 3 ...

And I'll bet you'll have a coronary heart attack by the age of 45.

It should be omnivore as humans just dinnae have the capacity to run on meat and fat alone.

Obviously, but this poll was originally just to find out who eats meat and who doesn't.

Obviously, but this poll was originally just to find out who eats meat and who doesn't.

Oh, I haven't read the OP in.. ? Can't even remember one thing about it. Well I don't eat meat. But I don't care if others do. It would just be nice to stop hearing I eat rabbit food. Rabbits don't eat tacos.

Oh, I haven't read the OP in.. ? Can't even remember one thing about it. Well I don't eat meat. But I don't care if others do. It would just be nice to stop hearing I eat rabbit food. Rabbits don't eat tacos.

Rabbit food...I had some of my friend's bunny's food once. It was a box of these yogurt drop things, only formulated for rabbits and they didn't taste THAT bad. Just a funny aftertaste, y'know?

Rabbit food...I had some of my friend's bunny's food once. It was a box of these yogurt drop things, only formulated for rabbits and they didn't taste THAT bad. Just a funny aftertaste, y'know?

Rabbit food's good. But people food's better. Obviously without meat, but WTF. Not much of a difference when it comes down to taste. :)

I don't mind people being vegetarians. More meat for me.

If your only problem is the way the food-animals are treated, would you eat venison or rabbit or pheasant, or other animals that lived their lives in the wild?

(Mmmm... venison.)

does anyone know the "cruel" way cows are killed? they hit them with a electrified sledgehammer. it very quick. about the same as a gunshot to the head. hell deer die worse if you screw up the shot.

does anyone know the "cruel" way cows are killed? they hit them with a electrified sledgehammer. it very quick. about the same as a gunshot to the head. hell deer die worse if you screw up the shot.

Are you serious? For ALL cows, all over the world?

does anyone know the "cruel" way cows are killed? they hit them with a electrified sledgehammer. it very quick. about the same as a gunshot to the head. hell deer die worse if you screw up the shot.

For some, yeah. But you'd probably be shocked at the intentional brutality of the workers. The cruelty is not so much in the killing, but in the living.

In my opinion it doesnt matter what the raising of animals does to the environment or that we could feed more ppl, or how cruel things may be. As long as cows taste better than vegetables IM eating 'em.

In my opinion it doesnt matter what the raising of animals does to the environment or that we could feed more ppl, or how cruel things may be. As long as cows taste better than vegetables IM eating 'em.

Good attitude.

For some, yeah. But you'd probably be shocked at the intentional brutality of the workers. The cruelty is not so much in the killing, but in the living.

What about Kobe Beef? These are cows that live better lives than the people that take care of them. I have often wondered if PETA has issued a statement on Kobe Beef, but I have not been able to find one anywhere. To me, that would seem to be the exact opposite of cruel treatment.

What about Kobe Beef? These are cows that live better lives than the people that take care of them. I have often wondered if PETA has issued a statement on Kobe Beef, but I have not been able to find one anywhere. To me, that would seem to be the exact opposite of cruel treatment.

I don't know what that is, actually. I'm sure there are exceptions. Mostly what I refer to is the factory farming "technique." There are surely more natural, and may I say, humane "methods."

I don't know what that is, actually. I'm sure there are exceptions. Mostly what I refer to is the factory farming "technique." There are surely more natural, and may I say, humane "methods."

This (http://www.kobe-beef.com/fact_fiction.php) would be a good place to get started. There are any number of sources out there that discuss Kobe Beef, but I figure straight from the cow's mouth would be a good place to start.

I'm mostly vegetarian, I try not to eat meat more than twice a week. I don't do it because I think it'll suddenly stop all animal cruelty, I am not deluded. I just... really do not like thinking that something (living, breathing, possibly thinking) died so that I could eat, whereas I have the option to simply eat something that never really lived. If other people want to eat meat daily and in large amounts, it's fine with me, I respect their choice. But I don't agree with it.

As a religious gourmand I have to condemn veganism on moral grounds as an insidious depravity.

This (http://www.kobe-beef.com/fact_fiction.php) would be a good place to get started. There are any number of sources out there that discuss Kobe Beef, but I figure straight from the cow's mouth would be a good place to start.

*Hmmm* Well, they seem to be well taken care of. It's not the factory-farming-type atmosphere. Which is nice for a change.

Factory farming is the major issue with me. If people could buy meat from local farmers I wouldn't have as much of a problem about it. But as things stand, meat cows are treated horribly and they live tormented and terrified lives, often being fed ground-up cow. It just isn't right to me. Add the hormones and stuff.. I dunno. It's not a healthy process for anyone.

Has anyone ever read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series, by Douglas Adams? This conversation is starting to remind me of when they're at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, and a cow walks up to them, one that has been bred to be self-servient (is that a word?) and so on. It asks what part of it the guests would like to eat, and then waddles off to the kitchen to kill itself.

Kinda disturbing, wonder if Adams was poking fun at this whole topic?