NationStates Jolt Archive

When war isn't genocide, it is because the purpose of the war isn't to kill people, but to force through some sort of agenda, unrelated to killing.

The sole purpose of the war you propose, however, appears to be to kill a religious denomination. That is what genocide is.I'm well aware of the etymology, but I think you're just being dodgy. You forgot "deicide" by the way.

Don't forget sororicide. Deicide is an oxymoron.

I did not propose the slaughter of the entire Islamic world, just the engendering of such fear therein that they will not oppose the west.

I did not propose the slaughter of the entire Islamic world, just the engendering of such fear therein that they will not oppose the west.I see. You'll forgive me for not drawing that conclusion from your post, I hope. It wasn't entirely obvious.

Especially since I - a European atheist - almost feels like starting a war with you right now. Intimidation doesn't work. Trying to intimidate a bunch of peoples who already believes we intend to kill them one & all, is even more futile. They'd already be docile as hell if your aproach worked.

I see. You'll forgive me for not drawing that conclusion from your post, I hope. It wasn't entirely obvious.

Especially since I - a European atheist - almost feels like starting a war with you right now. Intimidation doesn't work. Trying to intimidate a bunch of peoples who already believes we intend to kill them one & all, is even more futile. They'd already be docile as hell if your aproach worked.

Enough force would work impeccably, and appeasement, apathy and half measures have signally failed.

I think after watching 100,000 of people crawl out of the radioactive rubble with their skin burned off (the lucky ones), that instinct that makes you retch will be subsumed with an anger that will justify anything.

Islamism is an idea and ideas do not stop at borders. Let's take your scenario of closing the borders to Muslims. The US already has around 5 million Muslims. The Global War on Terror is going to continue to radicalize the Muslim world regardless of what we do. If we stop GWOT or accept Osama's "truce," that will only embolden al Qaida and prove to the Muslim world that they are the vanguard of a global manifest destiny that will eventually absorb the planet's population into the Ummah or at least place us non-believers into a subservient state of dhimmitude. That is their goal. They've been waiting 1400 years for vengeance to vindicate the humiliation that they suffered during the Crusades, the fall of the Ottoman Empire and everything that's happened since the 1948 birth of Israel. They believe time is on their side.

Hypothetically, even if we round up every Muslim and place them into detention camps like the Japanese during WWII, the IDEA of jihad and Islamic revolution remains in books, the Internet and in America's prison population. What is to stop more Johnny "Taliban" Walkers? Or DC/Maryland sniper John A. Mohammeds? Jihadist violence will continue even after Iran wipes Israel off the map, even after the US occupies Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia, even after India annihilates Pakistan. The irrational, psychotic need to force burkhas on women of other faiths, to threaten publishers of a cartoon as if they had authority over another country, to blow up schoolgirls waiting at a bus stop WILL STILL EXIST not matter what we do.

Islamism is a meme and its very nature makes it toxic when it comes into contact with other memes. With few exceptions, global Islam is unable to adapt to the modern world and the advent of cheap medicine and food production has enabled Muslims to reproduce at a rate that is turning parts of the world into a Malthusian nightmare that we are now seeing the beginning of. In Turkey, Malaysia and even Iran, where there is a cosmopolitan middle-class that is more practical, those societies will survive, but I'm afraid that places like Yemen, Sudan and Pakistan where they don't have a clue on how to make enough clean water for its population, the next al Qaida variants will emerge. Any attempt by a Muslim to follow the Westernization process like Kemel Ataturk will be labelled apostates and stoned or beheaded according to Sharia law. The Radicals will become the majority in the Muslim world if not already. And if the Islamic meme can't adapt to the environment, it will justify 9-11 style attacks or worse to shape the environment to sustain them, in other words, eliminate infidels by nuke or by coerced conversion.

When I spelled out the "options," maybe I forgot to emphasize that I wasn't HOPING that those options will be carried out, but that they were probably courses of action of a defeated Western civilization that retained scientific war-fighting ability. The collapse of the West will NOT mean victory of the Islamists. If the US government falls from 20 nukes going off, it will only be the beginning of a long campaign of slow tit-for-tat annihilation. The US Air Force's and Navy's nuclear arsenal will fall into the hands of "neo-Crusaders" who will simply go to the highest population density of the enemy and reduce it to 0.0. They nuke our city, we nuke another one of theirs. The cycle of retaliation will not stop. After all, the Western peoples are gone, sterilized by the fallout, so what more is there to lose? Are we simply going to go quietly into the night and let the Muslims have this planet?

This is the end game that should really be communicated to whichever al Qaida sleeper cells in the US are doing maintenance on the suitcase nukes in the basements of their mosque safehouses. Global Islam will have to accept co-existence or risk a chain of events that will lead to nuclear winter and a lifeless Earth.

This doomsday scenario isn't necessary. With logic, and wise policies, we can prevent it. Not interfering with the Middle East, or interfering as little as possible as long as we need their oil is what I would consider to be a wise policy. We don't need to provoke anyone or prove anything.

Traditionally we did...



Murder is a crime already... What needs to be done than any other?



Same issue...



I'd do what we already have the power to do within the realm of our own liberty, fight specific crime on a case by case basis, rather than resulting to degrading myself to the abject discrimination and bigotry that you have shown yourself to be...

But it was Musim fundamentalists that killed him, not just anyone else. And they won't hesitate to kill anyone else who criticizes their twisted version of Islam. You have to fight religious fundamentalism by integrating the Muslims who are already here into society as much as possible, not treating their crimes on a case by case basis. There needs to be a uniform policy that eliminates the threat.

I did not propose the slaughter of the entire Islamic world, just the engendering of such fear therein that they will not oppose the west.

Why is opposing the West a bad thing? Being against Al Qaeda etc is one thing, but should a nation stand up to the "West" (which is probably going to be America, lets face it) why assume they're in the wrong? The yanks arent some bunch of saints out to save the world, you know.

Why is opposing the West a bad thing? Being against Al Qaeda etc is one thing, but should a nation stand up to the "West" (which is probably going to be America, lets face it) why assume they're in the wrong? The yanks arent some bunch of saints out to save the world, you know.
Indeed. As the Blessed one quite aptly demonstrates, at least parts of the west aren't looking to do the east any favours.

I can't help but thinking about slave drivers of old. Killing a bunch of slaves to make sure the rest won't start something.

Funny that a bunch of Muslims would take offence to an attude like that, isn't it?

I've worked with young Arab girls who were born in the US and have been disowned by their families and thrown out on the street because they became too Westernized. They were severely traumatized and repeated that Islam is an international brotherhood of men who can't be trusted. At first I brushed that off as a just emotional rambling. But when I read about Sharia law, when I see adulterers stoned to death, I can't just ignore that and engage in politically correct, multi-cultural BS and swallow the idea that Western culture is on the same moral plane as Islam.

Those girls are the prime example of why Islam will NEVER integrate with the West. Where is the Islamic Britney Spears? Where is the Islamic Google? Can I go into an Islamic bookstore in Brooklyn and find a Koranic Arabic translation of Thucydidies, Aristotle, Tacitus, Cato, Spinoza, Locke, Mill, St. Augustine, Jefferson, Burke, de Tocqueville, Hume, Kant, Nietzche or dare I say, Harry Potter?

1. Muslim leaders say one thing in English in the media and another thing in their native language. Don't they know that there are thousands of open-source translators that verify everything they say?

2. In jihad, it is justified to lie to the infidels. Contracts, agreements, treaties mean nothing. The Ummah is everything. I take NOTHING a Muslim says at face value. Even the Fatwa against terrorism issued by American Imams, when analysis are not structured like a real Fatwa.

3. Investigating incidents like chemical fires, oil refinery fires, train derailments, suspicious packages and the downing of a certain TWA flight off Long Island as SEPARATE INCIDENTS IS EXACTLY WHAT OSAMA WANTS. Osama understood the American intelligence collection/analysis/dissemination cycle and developed al Qaida to specially operate without being detected by comm intercepts or agency databases. (Whether or not an element within the US government collaborated is a whole other discussion.)

Watch Steve Emerson's documentary Jihad in America and you will see hidden video of a supposedly benign Islam fundraiser in a Dearborn Michigan restaurant and out come the flags for Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Jihadist cells operate in this country, protected, aided and abetted by fellow members of the "community."

The only Muslims in NYC who comes the closest to integrating with Western society are Turks, Albanians and Malaysians. Turks, thought Muslims, have absorbed Hellenic culture. Many Malaysians have absorbed Chinese/Sinic culture. Albanians more recently have absorbed Mediterranean and European culture. Immigration means the new arrival has to assimilate into that society to function, not the other way around. The Puritans came to the America to practice their religion freely, NOT to force the whole continent to accept their values. Catholics and Protestants in the US have accepted co-existence when enough of them have attained the middle-class and they reached that point because they spent decades if not a century assimilating.

Some academics have a theory on how Islam may develop in the next century.
The Vatican's policies in the 1960s were influenced by AMERICAN Catholics because they were so powerful. The theory goes that a Muslim-American middle class will moderate Global Islam and stop the Sunni-Shia-Wahabist-Salafist divides. I disagree. Global Islam has NO hierarchial authority like the RCC. There is no equivalent of Pope in Islam to influence, unless you believe Osama is the Imam Mahdi, in which case, any Muslim in America that becomes a moderate will be labelled a sell-out, who betrayed his faith and Ummah for personal wealth. This alienated Muslim immigrant will find that he is not accepted in the West, regret that he ever came to this country and return to the motherland with the affirmation that he should never have left the one true faith.

This is why there so many cases of Muslim men who marry Western women and then kidnap their children to the native country because he can't deal with being a parent in the Western society that he rejects and feels more comfortable in an environment that he can control. Another reason why integration is a lost cause.

You can whine and moan about accepting other cultures, but when a women in a full veil steps onto the subway, people look. People think: Is that a suicide bomber? You can't stop people from thinking that. You can proudly wear your religion in public, but you also have to realize that it is baggage that you have to carry. People are people. You can't make them accept you. You can't wipe the negative images from their mind.

Unless Muslims learn to compromise and accept the West for what it is and try to blend in, they risk enclaving themselves like the Quakers in Pennsylvania or Hasidic Jews in NY, but without the economic means to support themselves. That may lead to Paris-style powder-keg tenements with one exception: France doesn't have 80 million private citizens owning 300 million firearms.

I don't care if people call me a bigot. That's not going to stop me from saying what I want to say. What do I care if I'm called a name? The world may end in a two weeks if the Iran continues on its course. What does it matter? Someone called me a Machiavel. Wow! I take that as a compliment! The means don't matter, only the ends. That's Hobbesian, man, state-of-nature stuff. Just say what you have to say. The enemy doesn't justify their actions. Why should we? They just act. And so should we.

I dig that style. No more debate. Just get to the tactics.

Those girls are the prime example of why Islam will NEVER integrate with the West. Where is the Islamic Britney Spears?

I stopped reading at this point. Sorry.




People like you look at Africa and point out differences between the West's quality of life, and African quality of life, and then use that to conclude that black people are inferior.

Your logic isn't really different.

I don't think muslums are a proplem at all, well at lest them as a peoples, but i find all religons to be rather evil and um byist things, but acourse it could be just as bad no matter what, humans basicly where ment to kill each other, just as any other animal on acasion will kill another.