NationStates Jolt Archive

There was a recent thread on the US military's attempt to crack down on soldiers who patronize prostitutes, but the reason given was not the usual argument about STDs, but about the evil of human trafficking.

According to officials prostitution is being targeted because it is the main fuel for the human trafficking industry. Human trafficking is the illegal practice of procuring human beings for unpaid work in physically abusive settings and locations from which they are not allowed to leave.

Now, that sounds like a lot of people's marriages to me...

But, I was wondering what your reason to support or oppose prostitution might be? Or do you care one way or the other?

As long as it's regulated, there's health checks, and the people invloved in it are not forced to do so, I see no problem.

Of course I also grew up with cat houses just over the hill from me so I might be slightly biased. :D

Bad joke about marriage aside, the problem of human trafficking is a major one.

I support prostitution when the women involved have a free choice and start on an even playing field.

But too much of the world's prostitution trade is based on the forcing of women (and boys) into prostitution against their will. That is intolerable. It is evil of the worst kind.

Support prostitution? As in, demonstrate for people to patronise prostitutes more often? I don't think so...

Support prostitutes, on the other hand, definitely. Give them legal protection, provide health services, recognise them as professionals, include them in pension plans and dental care, everything other professionals get, too. Make the business more transparent and make it harder for illegals to operate.

Think about legalized prostitution this way;

Do you like your job? Do you do it to make ends meet? Do you like your boss? Now imagine you work for a 'big box' prostitution store. The customer's always right...

Kind of grosses me out.

I'm perfectly content to leave prostitution in the 'gray area'. Let people do what people have been doing since the dawn of people. I don't see a need to make it 'legal'. Everyone knows its going on, let's focus our resources on the 'human traffic' side of the prostitution equation. That's NO joke... there is some seriously sadistic stuff going on in the world, and probably right underneath our noses. Legalizing it kind of puts an extra layer of bureacracy in favour of pimps and exploiters of women.

Now, that sounds like a lot of people's marriages to me...


Great ... the Uni Librarian just glared at me for laughing so loud. Quiet, DK, other people are trying to study! (Thanks for the laugh, though ... shhh)

Anyway. Prostitution? Sure ... why not? If I'm going to stand so vehemently for a woman's right to pay to remove something from her body (abortion), then I must stand up for her right to get paid to put something in her body (penis).

Do you like your job? Do you do it to make ends meet? Do you like your boss? Now imagine you work for a 'big box' prostitution store. The customer's always right...


Huge LOL.

OMG! You people cut it out.

*makes note to not log in here from the Uni's computers*

'Big Box' ... (I assumed you were aware that 'box' is slang for vagina) ... awesome name for a Brothel.

i had a dream last night about being a prostitute which is why I, well I dont support it but I do think it should be legalised. Helps keep them away from the pimps and drugdealers, maybe get them off the drugs if theyre on them.

I think legalisation of prostitution can help combat the 'human trafficking' aspect of prostitution, and help the prostitutes do their work without the parasitic pimps, so I would support that.

Legalise it, and get regular health checks, and ensure people arent being forced into it.

Then it's fine. It's the womens body, if she wants to rent it out, that's her business...

Huge LOL.

OMG! You people cut it out.

*makes note to not log in here from the Uni's computers*

'Big Box' ... (I assumed you were aware that 'box' is slang for vagina) ... awesome name for a Brothel.

Actually never thought of it that way... maybe we should legalize it... might be onto something there. Think of all the Mom & Pop hooker shops we could shut down! :p

Oppose. I agree with egg and chips in that it is her business but for the legalization thing to work or for it to work in any manner it needs to be corrupt free. You legalize it more people will do it and people can get away with more because they can hide in with the large amounts of other people who are there. I hope someone understands what I mean because has I read this it looks confusing and I really can't word it any better... yet. Anyhow, I don't find a mother who pays the rent and feeds herself (and maybe other) by means of prostitution because they could find a job immoral, I just thinking making something like this legal or encouraging will make there lives harder.

Anyway. Prostitution? Sure ... why not? If I'm going to stand so vehemently for a woman's right to pay to remove something from her body (abortion), then I must stand up for her right to get paid to put something in her body (penis).

Well the majority of women in prostitution desperately want to get out but I can't actually think of a comeback to this so I'll just lurk quietly.:p

There was a recent thread on the US military's attempt to crack down on soldiers who patronize prostitutes, but the reason given was not the usual argument about STDs, but about the evil of human trafficking.



Now, that sounds like a lot of people's marriages to me...

But, I was wondering what your reason to support or oppose prostitution might be? Or do you care one way or the other?

You really needed multiple choice; because some of us support or oppose prostitution AND are naked in a beanbag eating cheetos. :)

I support prostitution because I can't wrap my head around the idea that it's illegal to sell something that you can give away for free.

Bad joke about marriage aside, the problem of human trafficking is a major one.

I support prostitution when the women involved have a free choice and start on an even playing field.

But too much of the world's prostitution trade is based on the forcing of women (and boys) into prostitution against their will. That is intolerable. It is evil of the worst kind.

I'll agree. But it really isn't the prostitution, but the forced labor that's wrong.

How did you guys know about the cheetos?:p

I strongly oppose prostitution as it is exploitative, degrading and reduces people to the level of sexual objects. Some may argue that complete legalisation would make it safer but this has been shown not to be the case in places like Amsterdam and its only effect is to bring about a massive increase in the size of the sex industry. The only right approach in my view is to take that followed by Sweden which makes it legal to sell but not to purchase sexual services and following the introduction of such laws in 1999 both prostitution and sex trafficking have almost completely disappeared.

there should be a banner somewhere that reads Members of NS Support Prostitution. as long as this poll keeps up

i support it for the same reason i support drug legalization... people are gonna do it anyway, and if its legal the government can a)make it safer and b)tax it, instead of taxing hardworking college students.

i support it for the same reason i support drug legalization... people are gonna do it anyway, and if its legal the government can a)make it safer.


instead of spyhillis hookers the gov't assures you that the worst they have is herpes.


b)tax it, instead of taxing hardworking college students


could you imagine a hooker tax? but as a college student i agree with that.

Anyway. Prostitution? Sure ... why not? If I'm going to stand so vehemently for a woman's right to pay to remove something from her body (abortion), then I must stand up for her right to get paid to put something in her body (penis).

good point.

I don't necessarily support prostitution in the form it is currently in, in most countries...which is, forced underground, unsafe, and unsanitary. I'd like to see prostution acknowledged, regulated, and made safe for both the prostitutes and the johns. I'd like to see more effort put into stopping child prositution, (and child marriages for that matter) and human trafficking. Take the abuse out of prostitution, and I'm for it. Trying to just legislate it out of existance is stupid.

Can prostitutes refuse work?, Cause thats gotta be so funny when a really depressed fat guy gets turned away by a prostiture :D

As for the issue in hand, I think its sad it goes on but if two consenting individuals have sex the government has NO buesiness being involved, even if it takes money to make it consensual.

I don't necessarily support prostitution in the form it is currently in, in most countries...which is, forced underground, unsafe, and unsanitary. I'd like to see prostution acknowledged, regulated, and made safe for both the prostitutes and the johns. I'd like to see more effort put into stopping child prositution, (and child marriages for that matter) and human trafficking. Take the abuse out of prostitution, and I'm for it. Trying to just legislate it out of existance is stupid.

Hmm... in the DC Metro area, pimps are gone and a thing of the past. Women work as individuals, and have web sites and arrange meeting by email and text message. They aren't out walking the street.

Not sure about child prostitution, but there's been a complete change in adult prostitution that's been in effect for almost 10 years now here.

I support it because it's insane to regulate consentual sex in any way. What position is okay or not okay, who can do what with whom, or what contractual obligations are associated with it.

If sex is legal and selling things is legal, then why isn't selling sex legal? It's the prostitute's body and they can do with it as they please.

I don't understand why someone would want to be a prostitute, I fear that most of them are doing it because they are forced to, or feel like they are forced to.

I myself have done things that I didn't want to out of what I felt was necessity (working in food service) and I don't really see the difference on a logical level (philosophically I am against sex outside of marriage, but that's not what laws should be based on)

I can rationalize and say it's a service, not unlike someone who does pedicures, or a massage therapist. I wish there was a way to ensure that people weren't being bought and sold, and forced to do things they don't want to (sex slaves) but I don't know that there is a way to legislate that at all. (or that it would be fair for people that really do want to provide this "service")

I guess I have to fall back on my "whatever happens between two consenting adults in the bedroom is no business of the government" mantra......as far as what should happen to people who take away someone's right to consent? I don't know......my punishment would likely be cruel and unusual.

Eerrrr im 50-50.
well. 70-30.
I disagree with prostitution on a matter of principle and safety.
IF it could be guaranteed safe for both parties.
And IF both parties are consenting.
I would support it due to my liberal values.
But i wouldnt talk to anyone that did it.

im all for government ran prostitution, there will be miles and miles of red tape involved, it will be like standing in line at the DMV, except the end will be much more rewarding.

im all for government ran prostitution, there will be miles and miles of red tape involved, it will be like standing in line at the DMV, except the end will be much more rewarding.

Ooooh. So, you could be sentenced to "community service"?

So long as the prostitutes are adults and are willing to enter that trade I have no problem with it. It's just a business transaction like any other. It's stupid to say you can loan it out for free but you can't rent it out for money.

Ooooh. So, you could be sentenced to "community service"?
lol, would be fun;)

i don't feel that prostitution is in any way a forced labor. Some people choose to take up that "profession" as a means to an end. Some people are incapable or unable to find other work and the money is forthcoming. I do feel that prostitution should be controlled and the "pimps", if I may be so blunt, should be taken out of hte picture. If we are to ban prostitution we may as well make strip clubs illegal as well. The situtation, although not the same, is still an exploitation of physical being.

You really needed multiple choice; because some of us support or oppose prostitution AND are naked in a beanbag eating cheetos. :)

I support prostitution because I can't wrap my head around the idea that it's illegal to sell something that you can give away for free.

And some of us support/oppose prostitution, and hate the comedy of Ron ('tater salad) White ;)

I'm in favor of Nevada style regulation on the trade. Everywhere else, it's a victimless crime. If the "industry" were legal and regulated it would be safer, and taxable. You could say the same thing about drugs as well.

I haven't read anything on this thread, so don't get mad if I'm repeating what's already been posted. This being said...

Selling is legal. Sex is legal. So selling sex should be legal too.

Provided it's safe and all parties consent then have at it I say.

they tried regulating prostitution in england in the 19C in certain cities.. .. and that just meant that poor young girls (eg aged 12 and over) were more vunerable to becoming prostitutes..
most prostitution is explotation of poor women who are vunerable and feel they have no alternative..or women who are tricked into the "sex trade" or are trafficked across borders. Here in Israel .(.which has a population of approx 6 million ) there was a recent report on prostitution and the trafficking of women for profit and there it was estimated that there are a million visits to prostitutes a month!!!!!!!
which if you do the maths and assume that half the population are women (who presumably don't go to prostitutes) and 1 million are children.... that means that 1 man in every 2 1/2 is going to a prostitute once a month.
that's a lot of money going into the hands of the pimps and the traffickers.. and away from the families of these men....
quite what you do to change this appalling state of affairs is another story.

...which if you do the maths and assume that half the population are women (who presumably don't go to prostitutes) and 1 million are children.... that means that 1 man in every 2 1/2 is going to a prostitute once a month.
that's a lot of money going into the hands of the pimps and the traffickers.. and away from the families of these men....
quite what you do to change this appalling state of affairs is another story.

Well, if we were a true Communist state, it would be to each according to their need, from each according to their ability.

One would presume that there would be some idle workers each day, who would then line up for "community service" - you know, to satisfy the sexual needs of all the other workers.

And since this was true Communism, there wouldn't be any money exchanging hands, or pimps, etc.

The people doing "community service" for the day might elect someone to keep track of the paperwork, or elect someone to settle disputes between the people providing "service" and the workers who are trying to satisfy their "needs".

I think it should be government controlled or else outlawed. In my country, a lot of poor eastern European women are imported here, being promised money and a new life but ending up working for ruthless pimps. That is wrong. We also have some ridicolous laws punishing those who buy sex. Where's the logic in that? Open a state prostitution department with decent salaries and crack down hard on the illegal pimps.

I agree with prostitution as long as the women doing it are happy to be doing it and it's controlled with regular STD testing. People go around having promiscuous sex with random strangers all the time, they don't have to use condoms and they don't have to be tested regularly for STDs but it isn't illegal, yet if someone wants paying for it that's a whole different story

I am in favour of it, so long as the industry is placed on a legal footing and regulated.

I am in favour of it, so long as the industry is placed on a legal footing and regulated.
So mu "true Communist" solution would be OK with you?

i don't feel that prostitution is in any way a forced labor. Some people choose to take up that "profession" as a means to an end. Some people are incapable or unable to find other work and the money is forthcoming. I do feel that prostitution should be controlled and the "pimps", if I may be so blunt, should be taken out of hte picture. If we are to ban prostitution we may as well make strip clubs illegal as well. The situtation, although not the same, is still an exploitation of physical being.

Not everyone involved in prostitution is making a choice. There's a lot of deception in poorer parts of the world where younger women think they're leaving their country for a better life, only to find out that they have to 'work off' their contracts, under penalty of death. When you're in a foreign country, in forced confinement, and your 'contract' is sold to other 'employers' on a regular basis to keep you moving around, it's a little difficult to get away. Legalizing prostitution isn't going to stop this, it's going to 'normalize' the sex trade. What these people are doing is already illegal. What's going to stop them from keeping up the 'business'?

Prostitution has always existed and, dare I say it, will always exist. Banning it just drives it underground, where it's dangerous.

I say legalise it and strictly monitor and regulate it to make it safe and fair for all parties involved.

From what I've heard, the Netherlands methods work pretty well. Legalize it, but put it under strict government regulation. Eliminate the pimps side of it, give the girls a means to call the police if they are threatened, sanitation laws...legalized prostitution can work so long as the government works to keep it safe.

Since everyone on this forum agrees you can get all you want on a first date, I really don't understand why anyone pays for prostitution.

Since everyone on this forum agrees you can get all you want on a first date, I really don't understand why anyone pays for prostitution.
Maybe they're shy, maybe they're ugly (which may explain why they're shy), maybe they're inexperienced, maybe they simply don't want to waste time and would rather get down to business... There may be many valid reasons.

Since everyone on this forum agrees you can get all you want on a first date, I really don't understand why anyone pays for prostitution.Maybe they can't get a date at all?

Selling is legal. Sex is legal. So selling sex should be legal too.Selling is legal. Babies are legal. So selling babies should be legal?!
I'm sure there are more interesting combinations to be made in this newfangled logic..

Selling is legal. Babies are legal. So selling babies should be legal?!
I'm sure there are more interesting combinations to be made in this newfangled logic..


isnt there already a baby selling black market?

So mu "true Communist" solution would be OK with you?
If my drink was spiked with LSD, maybe it would make some sort of sense.

isnt there already a baby selling black market?Yes, but somehow I don't think legalizing it would fix any of the problems.

If legalised then the market for the illegal ones (that have forced labor) would disappear. What would you choose, go somewhere where you can go to jail, or somewhere where it is totally legal, plus the workers are garenteed not to have any STDs.

I'm in favour of legalised prostitution. The argument for making it illegal because of the human trading aspect is weak, and equates to any argument for making an object illegal because it has some illegal potential uses.

Human trading (as it is understood to occur in the sex industry) amounts to slavery, which I feel should be illegal in all its forms. However picking cotton, a job that was once frequently done by slaves, should be legal, even though at one point it could be said that the cotton farming industry relied heavily on slavery.

There is no reason to ban prostitution just because it is sometimes a job done by slaves.

I do not feel any of the religious based arguments are particularly strong (not being a religious person myself), and that in any case religious arguments should not be the basis upon which laws are made.

I'm morally opposed to prostitution, as I am opposed to all forms of exploitation of sex by capitalist parties. But I still reluctantly favour legalising it because I think there would be less problems that way.

As long as it's regulated, there's health checks, and the people invloved in it are not forced to do so, I see no problem.
This is why I support legalised protstitution. It enables government regulation and rights for the workers. It takes the industry out of the world of gangsters.

I strongly oppose it. It is demoralizing to everything and everyone. STDs are easily transmitted. There are no valid arguments for it. It is highly immoral and prostitutes should be sterilized.

Foolish morality should not be regulated.

It should be legalized. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to make a monetary transaction for something I can already do.

prostitution is the very foundation of capitolism. and while capitolism, it's naughty illigitimate son, has been known to encourage corruption and all sorts of callus naughtyness, moma prostitution is itself relatively innocent and makes therefore no sense to oppose.

=^^=
.../\...

i dont support prostitution. its a dangerous and degrading job.

but there are situations where its the best option (in her opinion) for a particular woman in certain circumstances and i feel that it should be her option to sell sex.

its been done forever; it will be done forever; and no one is helped by tossing the participants in jail.

forced prostitution should be vigorously prosecuted.

it really is good to see that NS Supports Prositution.

I don't understand why someone would want to be a prostitute, I fear that most of them are doing it because they are forced to, or feel like they are forced to.
Can't answer about the streetwalkers, but the ones at the cat houses in Nevada have various reasons for doing so. And they're all quick to note that the money's good and they can leave at any time.

Heck, one of them was apparently studying at my university while she worked. She said it was a little rough, because she was always in a mad dash to hide her textbooks when a John came.

I can rationalize and say it's a service, not unlike someone who does pedicures, or a massage therapist. I wish there was a way to ensure that people weren't being bought and sold, and forced to do things they don't want to (sex slaves) but I don't know that there is a way to legislate that at all. (or that it would be fair for people that really do want to provide this "service")
In Nevada, to get a licence to run a brothel, you have to pass background checks to make sure you're not tied in to any criminal activity. The girls must undergo regular health checks (Once a week I'm told, with once a month STD checks) and at that time the owner cannot be anywhere near the girls to allow for full access of state healthcare and legal workers to her. Any hint of something wrong gets the licence pulled (Such happened to the owner of the Chicken Ranch, a girl complained he had withheld some of her money and they yanked his licence).

Does that work?

Prostitution as it's constituted now is nothing more than a form of chattel slavery (even in the U.S. and other so-called civilized countries). People are in it because they have no other options and they are at the mercy of their patrons and pimps. Drugs and alcohol are used to control them.

If it were legalized and regulated, the picture would be a little better. The prostitutes (I include male prostitutes) would have a better future and more options. The pimp would be removed from the picture, eliminating a significant source of abuse.

Unfortunately, legalization and regulation would not put a stop the exploitation of children as prostitutes nor would it eliminate "black market" prostitution (prostitutes selling themselves more cheaply than the regulated legal prostitutes, prostitutes who perform acts that would not be required of the legal prostitutes).

So, while legalization would help somewhat, it isn't going to solve the problems.

Can't answer about the streetwalkers, but the ones at the cat houses in Nevada have various reasons for doing so. And they're all quick to note that the money's good and they can leave at any time.

Heck, one of them was apparently studying at my university while she worked. She said it was a little rough, because she was always in a mad dash to hide her textbooks when a John came.


In Nevada, to get a licence to run a brothel, you have to pass background checks to make sure you're not tied in to any criminal activity. The girls must undergo regular health checks (Once a week I'm told, with once a month STD checks) and at that time the owner cannot be anywhere near the girls to allow for full access of state healthcare and legal workers to her. Any hint of something wrong gets the licence pulled (Such happened to the owner of the Chicken Ranch, a girl complained he had withheld some of her money and they yanked his licence).

Does that work?

I don't know if its true or not, but supposedly Dennis Hof (owner of Moonlite Bunny Ranch, et al) may be making a bid to get licensed in Nye County and acquire the Chicken Ranch.

i don't really care about it but i do know that criminalizing consentual acts is ludicrous

I don't know if its true or not, but supposedly Dennis Hof (owner of Moonlite Bunny Ranch, et al) may be making a bid to get licensed in Nye County and acquire the Chicken Ranch.
Oh brother. :rolleyes: It wouldn't surprise me at all.

I strongly oppose it. It is demoralizing to everything and everyone. STDs are easily transmitted. There are no valid arguments for it. It is highly immoral and prostitutes should be sterilized.

Whoa are you saying the government should forcibly sterilize prostitutes?

Oh brother. :rolleyes: It wouldn't surprise me at all.

S'okay. Maybe he'll found a graduate school for prostitutional post-secondary study at UNLV. We'll call it the "Hof Building", and put it where the arts building used to be.

S'okay. Maybe he'll found a graduate school for prostitutional post-secondary study at UNLV. We'll call it the "Hof Building", and put it where the arts building used to be.
*lol* There was a campus joke to that effect at UNR for a while (not saying that UNLV would get one, but that one had opened up in the basment of the men's dorm on campus in Reno).

*lol* There was a campus joke to that effect at UNR for a while (not saying that UNLV would get one, but that one had opened up in the basment of the men's dorm on campus in Reno).

You UNR people already have a medical school, the "Sex for Money" grad school is ours!

Hell, it'll be a natural synergy with Boyd Law and the Dental school...

Hell, it'll be a natural synergy with Boyd Law and the Dental school...
*Not going to make the obvious remark. I've been told to play nice with UNLV, not going to, nope!* ;)

*Not going to make the obvious remark. I've been told to play nice with UNLV, not going to, nope!* ;)

Told to be nice by who?

Did you hear that they're going to increase the admission standards at UNLV?

Now, instead of just holding a mirror up to your nose, they also check for a heartbeat.

it should be legal, for the plain and simple fact, that we live in, america, land of the free, but i see no freedom here, nor there, i cant find it, anywhere, if a woman wants to sell her body, i dont care, truth is, theres no way to regulate it, unless it became legal and all prostitutes were taken off the street and put into brothels where the money can be taxed by the government, i mean, jesus, look at the Billions of dollars this country could make off of leagalizing hookers alone.

Told to be nice by who?
Director of Admissions at UNR, aka my advisor while I was there. He reminded all of us that while recruiting for Nevada, it's not nice to make fun of UNLV.

But there's nothing wrong with mentioning numbers of course. ;)

Did you hear that they're going to increase the admission standards at UNLV?

Now, instead of just holding a mirror up to your nose, they also check for a heartbeat.
Yup, I suppose that means that now UNR and UNLV can finally let bygones be bygones and start making fun of NSH together.

Director of Admissions at UNR, aka my advisor while I was there. He reminded all of us that while recruiting for Nevada, it's not nice to make fun of UNLV.


Did potential recruits ever ask about the brothels?

Just wondering if its widely known and/or a selling point.

Did potential recruits ever ask about the brothels?

Just wondering if its widely known and/or a selling point.
*ROTFLAO* Actually... yes. It did happen twice on two seperate tours of the campus I was giving. The best one was from a mom from Oregon who asked, in all seriousness, if there was prostitution on campus because she had heard it was legal in Nevada.

Of course, this was the same woman who expressed surprise that the student union didn't have a casino in it, or at least slot machines.

Her poor son looked like he wanted to go off someone and die after she asked.

I don't really care. It's legal here in NZ, which is probably a good thing. But meh. I have no real opinion on it.

Its almost as if this discussion has happened before...
Anyway, i support it, because legal prostitution means better protection of the prostitutes and better healthcare.
Besides it means lower prices. :D

I think that it should be legal, but heavily regulated.

My reasons? The classic consenting adults argument. I don't think the state has the right to tell an adult what they can and cannot do with their own body.

It would have to be heavily regulated though, for public safety, and also to catch people involved in human trafficking.

What Kallisdrun said.

If a man gets sex because he bought a girl dinner worth $100, she's a date.

If a man gets sex because he gave a girl $100, she's a prostitute.

Kind of silly if you ask me.

So, anyway, legalized under regulation. With prostitutes of both sexes of course.

Sort of. Prostitution should be legal, but the country should be reformed that nobody would choose to become a prostitute for economic reasons. (Unless, of course, someone is accepting money for something that they'd do for free.)

Barring that mega change, legalizing it would help a little bit, a la Nevada.

As a Christian, I think pornography and prostitution are perversions. I believe God intended the sexual act to be part of a covenant, and I believe it's morally wrong to separate the two.

However, also as a Christian, I believe God wants people to choose right behavior, not be forced to it. Inhibiting free choice is therefore also immoral, because it prevents people from having the opportunity to display virtue.

Also, as an American, I don't believe ANY consenting behavior between adults - even a behavior with which I disagree - should be against the law.

So yes, as long as it is made and kept safe for all parties, it ought to be legal.

As a Christian, I think pornography and prostitution are perversions. I believe God intended the sexual act to be part of a covenant, and I believe it's morally wrong to separate the two.

However, also as a Christian, I believe God wants people to choose right behavior, not be forced to it. Inhibiting free choice is therefore also immoral, because it prevents people from having the opportunity to display virtue.

Also, as an American, I don't believe ANY consenting behavior between adults - even a behavior with which I disagree - should be against the law.

So yes, as long as it is made and kept safe for all parties, it ought to be legal.

exactly what I was trying to say ! (a few pages ago) maybe we were seperated at birth or something :eek: :p

exactly what I was trying to say ! (a few pages ago) maybe we were seperated at birth or something :eek: :p

LOL! Maybe so. :D

Yes indeed. I pay tax on my dead-end job, why shouldn't they?

The idea that it should be legalised simply because it will never disappear is absurd - we may well legalise murder according to this logic. It is only common sense that the easier it is to get something then the greater the demand will be and in this case the more people who will be driven into an oppressive, dangerous and misogynistic industry. There's certainly no point in victimising someone who is forced into selling their body through circumstances beyond thier control but I don't see why we shouldn't punish those who decide to use their money in order to exploit others.

I strongly oppose it. It is demoralizing to everything and everyone. STDs are easily transmitted. There are no valid arguments for it. It is highly immoral and prostitutes should be sterilized.
I agree that it is immoral, but the point on STDs is why it should be legalised. STDs spread faster when it's illegal (read: happens underground), than when the government mandates health checks for prostitutes.

B
I support prostitution when the women involved have a free choice and start on an even playing field.
And the men involved. :p

But too much of the world's prostitution trade is based on the forcing of women (and boys) into prostitution against their will. That is intolerable. It is evil of the worst kind.
Agreed on this.

Why is it illegal to do something got monry when it's perfectly legal to do for free?

Why is it illegal to do something got monry when it's perfectly legal to do for free?

Cos of outdated religious laws. They be the sucky.

Why is it illegal to do something got monry when it's perfectly legal to do for free?Do you mean like donating kidneys or putting kids up for adoption?

Support it of course (and have the prostitutes have regular health checks).
Outlawing it would be extremely stupid, as it would greatly increase rape cases.

This is so focused on straight prostitution. What about gay prostitution?`What are the reasons for banning that, when all the "but the women are abused" arguments are thrown away? A man who wants to sell sex, be it to women or to men, what about him? Is he equally denigrated and abused and forced into it?

Support it of course (and have the prostitutes have regular health checks).
Outlawing it would be extremely stupid, as it would greatly increase rape cases.

Nope, rape is rarely commited because of sexual desire, it is from a desire to have power over another human being.

What about gay prostitution?`What are the reasons for banning that, when all the "but the women are abused" arguments are thrown away?
Equal opportunity bannage? "But the men are abused!"
A man who wants to sell sex, be it to women or to men, what about him? Is he equally denigrated and abused and forced into it?
Equally so, and/or equally not so.
Assuming that we're still talking the same circumstances, that is, organized prostitution as opposed to, what do I call it, somebody running their own private enterprise with their body.

Equal opportunity bannage? "But the men are abused!"

I wouldn't feel too abused, to tell you the truth.

Equally so, and/or equally not so.
Assuming that we're still talking the same circumstances, that is, organized prostitution as opposed to, what do I call it, somebody running their own private enterprise with their body.

All pimps aren't awful people. Joining a "society" can bring you benefits. I've yet to hear about trafficking involving men. Not to say it doesn't exist.

I wouldn't feel too abused, to tell you the truth.
Far be it from me to doubt The Truth, then.

All pimps aren't awful people. Joining a "society" can bring you benefits. I've yet to hear about trafficking involving men. Not to say it doesn't exist.
That's why I said "equally so, or equally not so". I think your first two sentences apply to female prostitution as well, and I doubt that any of the negatives are spared to the male prostitutes, even though maybe in dfferent proportions.
All of this, of course, said without any real knowledge.

This is so focused on straight prostitution. What about gay prostitution?`What are the reasons for banning that, when all the "but the women are abused" arguments are thrown away? A man who wants to sell sex, be it to women or to men, what about him? Is he equally denigrated and abused and forced into it?
well, yes.

in a more enlightened view of prostitution (if it could be called that) it is understood as the more powerful taking advantage of the less powerful.

its not like its 30 year old doctors who prostitute themselves. its young men with few perceived options. they get taken advantage of by older men with the money to do so. (i dont know anything about male prostitution but if you have to pay someone to have sex with you in the gay community what is the obstacle to doing that same act with someone for free?)

in any case, its not a "man bad" - "women abused" thing. its a "no one should be forced or encouraged to sell their body" thing

I'm generally against it.

If it were safe, and there was a way to insure that the world's arses wouldn't rape the women, or murder them then I would say it was completely up to the woman. However, it isn't safe for prostitues, especially in 3rd world countries. Although, I also think it is silly for the police to waste money trying to capture these women and men who are prostitutes, or pay prostitutes. Like drugs, people are going to do it regardless of the law and the once you make it illegal, the higher the demand. Just make prostitution through bordellos legal, and say no to the street stuff.

Anyone who supports the legalization of prostitution has never had a daughter. :headbang:

All pimps aren't awful people. Joining a "society" can bring you benefits. I've yet to hear about trafficking involving men. Not to say it doesn't exist.
They traffick both young men and women in certain Eastern European countries.

They traffick both young men and women in certain Eastern European countries.
Not to mention several countries in both Africa and Asia. :(

Anyone who supports the legalization of prostitution has never had a daughter. :headbang:

I'd hope I hadn't... :eek:

Anyone who supports the legalization of prostitution has never had a daughter. :headbang:
what in the world does having a daughter have to do with it?

what in the world does having a daughter have to do with it?
Legalization of prostitution, just like legalization of drugs, lends the "profession" an air of acceptability. This flies in the face of something I would greatly prefer my daughters not do.

Legalization of prostitution, just like legalization of drugs, lends the "profession" an air of acceptability. This flies in the face of something I would greatly prefer my daughters not do.

I'm originally from a country which not only legalised prostitution (long time ago), but actually recognised the profession, thus enabling prostitutes to have the same protection and legal status as any other working person. That has been an issue of gender equality for a long time.
I fully support the legalisation, as it is the only way to ensure legal protection for the prostitute, along with all social benefits and health insurance (which were not possible before that, as long as the profession wasn't recognised).
I would never ever support someone's decision to prostitute themselves, but I'm glad that for those people who are forced by circumstances, there is at least some protection and security.

I'm originally from a country which not only legalised prostitution (long time ago), but actually recognised the profession, thus enabling prostitutes to have the same protection and legal status as any other working person. That has been an issue of gender equality for a long time.
I fully support the legalisation, as it is the only way to ensure legal protection for the prostitute, along with all social benefits and health insurance (which were not possible before that, as long as the profession wasn't recognised).
I would never ever support someone's decision to prostitute themselves, but I'm glad that for those people who are forced by circumstances, there is at least some protection and security.
This would be my position on the matter as well.

what in the world does having a daughter have to do with it?
He means that it would be extremely injurious for a parent to have a child which would be forced into such a profession.

He means that it would be extremely injurious for a parent to have a child which would be forced into such a profession.

Which brings me to the question : Would it be better if the child chose to be a pron star? Porn Actor is a legalised profession after all....

Which brings me to the question : Would it be better if the child chose to be a pron star? Porn Actor is a legalised profession after all....
Ah sorry. I misconstrued what you said. Porn actor/actress is not exactly the same, but in the end it's the person's prerogative. In a market economy everything is for sale. Even sex. Better so that it is a matter of choice than one of being forced into it. If a person chooses the line of profession they will also know what the consequences are anyway.

Which brings me to the question : Would it be better if the child chose to be a pron star? Porn Actor is a legalised profession after all....
Same thing.

Same thing.

Are you saying you want porn to be illegal as well?

Legalization of prostitution, just like legalization of drugs, lends the "profession" an air of acceptability. This flies in the face of something I would greatly prefer my daughters not do.
i would think that raising her well would be enough. then you could save your compassion for those who feel forced to do what their daddies couldnt save them from.

but i have no problem with YOU feeling that being a father keeps you from supporting a womans right to legal protection when she chooses to make a living in a way that you dont approve of

i was more thinking of your assertion that no one who had a daughter would be in favor of legalizing it. most customers of prostitutes are married men. most are fathers. that THEY would partake of purchased sex but deny the purveyors any legal protections for their business smacks of hypocricy to me no matter how many daughters they might have.

Support it of course (and have the prostitutes have regular health checks).
Outlawing it would be extremely stupid, as it would greatly increase rape cases.
Not so. Rape is an act of violence resulting from either hatred or a desire to control. Prostitution is the willing sale of one's body for sex. Big difference.

BECAUSE
A)fees and licenses (make it legal but regulated for health and saftey concerns)
b)taxes, if it's legal they have to pay taxes and collect taxes.
in other words.
It's all about the money...

Are you saying you want porn to be illegal as well?
No, although it would be great if they outlawed all forms of prostitution, including "performing" sexually in a movie for pay. Sex is not, IMHO, something which falls under "freedom of expression."

You have to remember that I am a father and grandfather and that I love my children and grandchildren very much. The legalization of anything which will harm my progeny in any way is something I will oppose with every fiber of my being.

most customers of prostitutes are married men. most are fathers. that THEY would partake of purchased sex but deny the purveyors any legal protections for their business smacks of hypocricy to me no matter how many daughters they might have.
I agree.

No, although it would be great if they outlawed all forms of prostitution, including "performing" sexually in a movie for pay. Sex is not, IMHO, something which falls under "freedom of expression."

You have to remember that I am a father and grandfather and that I love my children and grandchildren very much. The legalization of anything which will harm my progeny in any way is something I will oppose with every fiber of my being.

Assuming it will harm them, or that it's harmful in the first place.

No, although it would be great if they outlawed all forms of prostitution, including "performing" sexually in a movie for pay. Sex is not, IMHO, something which falls under "freedom of expression."

You have to remember that I am a father and grandfather and that I love my children and grandchildren very much. The legalization of anything which will harm my progeny in any way is something I will oppose with every fiber of my being.

Why are you so sure it will hurt them? It might, but that' in no way certain...
By that logic, you might as well outlaw cars, as the probability that one of them gets hurt in a car accident is much higher than that one of them will ever prostitute him/herself or star in a porn movie. You can't protect them from everything, but wouldn't you feel better knowing that if one of them ever really decided to work in that field, they would at least have all the legal protection necessary, and available health care?

Why are you so sure it will hurt them? It might, but that' in no way certain...
By that logic, you might as well outlaw cars, as the probability that one of them gets hurt in a car accident is much higher than that one of them will ever prostitute him/herself or star in a porn movie. You can't protect them from everything, but wouldn't you feel better knowing that if one of them ever really decided to work in that field, they would at least have all the legal protection necessary, and available health care?

And swimming pools, and coconuts.

Assuming it will harm them, or that it's harmful in the first place.
If that has to be explained to you, you're beyond any hope of understanding already.

Why are you so sure it will hurt them? It might, but that' in no way certain...
By that logic, you might as well outlaw cars, as the probability that one of them gets hurt in a car accident is much higher than that one of them will ever prostitute him/herself or star in a porn movie. You can't protect them from everything, but wouldn't you feel better knowing that if one of them ever really decided to work in that field, they would at least have all the legal protection necessary, and available health care?
No, because I would disown them and avoid all future contact.

And swimming pools, and coconuts.

What a strange fetish.... :eek:

No, because I would disown them and avoid all future contact.

Well, that would explain the love and protection well enough, I guess.....

What a strange fetish.... :eek:
Not if you see how many porn movies involve both.

If that has to be explained to you, you're beyond any hope of understanding already.

I suppose I should say "Assuming it will harm them more that most things in the world"?

Not if you see how many porn movies involve both.

Not the ones I watch ;)

Not the ones I watch ;)
:p And definitely not the ones I watch. Different story though about what my brother watches...:rolleyes: :p

Well, that would explain the love and protection well enough, I guess.....
After they reach 18, they're their own person. I have no, and would never attempt to exercise any form of control over them. This does not mean that I have no recourse if they disrespect their mother's and my attempts to raise them as thinking, compassionate, moral human beings. The best thing I could ever do for them should they do something so outrageous would be to sever all ties until they come to their senses. Some call this "tough love."

After they reach 18, they're their own person. I have no, and would never attempt to exercise any form of control over them. This does not mean that I have no recourse if they disrespect their mother's and my attempts to raise them as thinking, compassionate, moral human beings. The best thing I could ever do for them should they do something so outrageous would be to sever all ties until they come to their senses. Some call this "tough love."
I hope my parents don't adopt this logic were I to tell them I'm gay. :confused:

I suppose I should say "Assuming it will harm them more that most things in the world"?
I can think of few things that would harm them more, or be more demeaning, or more degrading, than prostitution. Perhaps drugs, although that's arguable for some drugs.

No, because I would disown them and avoid all future contact.
you would disown a daughter or a granddaughter for prostitution?

how far into it would she have to be?

what if she was on trip to europe, lost her money and traded sex for dinner?

what if it happened a long time ago?

what if you saw her getting nekkid and kissing another girl in one of those "girls gone wild" videos?

does it have to be ANY instance of whoring or does it have to be a fulltime job?

I hope my parents don't adopt this logic were I to tell them I'm gay. :confused:
How does that relate to what I said in any manner? If one of my children told me they were gay, I like to think that I would have the good sense to tell them I love them regardless. Being gay isn't something I think an individual has any control over. Being a prostitute obviously is.

How does that relate to what I said in any manner? If one of my children told me they were gay, I like to think that I would have the good sense to tell them I love them regardless. Being gay isn't something I think an individual has any control over. Being a prostitute obviously is.
That relates if your parents think it is a choice and not a matter of birth. My father pretty much thinks in that way.

you would disown a daughter or a granddaughter for prostitution?

how far into it would she have to be?

what if she was on trip to europe, lost her money and traded sex for dinner?

what if it happened a long time ago?

what if you saw her getting nekkid and kissing another girl in one of those "girls gone wild" videos?

does it have to be ANY instance of whoring or does it have to be a fulltime job?
Prostitution is a state of mind, more than anything else. If they run out of money and are in desperate need, they know that I would do whatever I had to do in order to correct that.

If it happened "a long time ago," I would welcome her ( or him! ) back with open arms.

If one of my daughters or grandaughters did something like kiss another girl, I would be disappointed, but probably never mention it. If she appeared in any movie with salacious overtones, I might mention that she seems to have lost her mind, but I wouldn't disown her.

That relates if your parents think it is a choice and not a matter of birth. My father pretty much thinks in that way.
After having made the aquaintenance of several gays, and become friends with a few, I have concluded that it's not something over which most of them have any degree of control. I rather suspect it's something genetic, but that's another thread. IMHO, gays are just people who are trying to live their lives as best they can, just like the rest of us.

After having made the aquaintenance of several gays, and become friends with a few, I have concluded that it's not something over which most of them have any degree of control. I rather suspect it's something genetic, but that's another thread. IMHO, gays are just people who are trying to live their lives as best they can, just like the rest of us.
Quite an enlightened view. Anyway, it is off topic so I'll drop it.

Quite an enlightened view.
Logic based on adequate information has a way of doing that. :D

Prostitution is a state of mind, more than anything else. If they run out of money and are in desperate need, they know that I would do whatever I had to do in order to correct that.

If it happened "a long time ago," I would welcome her ( or him! ) back with open arms.

If one of my daughters or grandaughters did something like kiss another girl, I would be disappointed, but probably never mention it. If she appeared in any movie with salacious overtones, I might mention that she seems to have lost her mind, but I wouldn't disown her.


Sorry, Eut. Somehow I have a hard time believing that you never ever watch porn....
And if you do, how can you justify taking "advantage" of other people's sons and daughters that way?

Sorry, Eut. Somehow I have a hard time believing that you never ever watch porn....
And if you do, how can you justify taking "advantage" of other people's sons and daughters that way?
I have never claimed to be perfect.

I have never claimed to be perfect.

"A signpost only has to indicate the way, not walk it", eh?

Still a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

"A signpost only has to indicate the way, not walk it", eh?

Still a bit hypocritical, don't you think?
Once again: I have never claimed to be perfect. At least I don't pay for it.

Once again: I have never claimed to be perfect. At least I don't pay for it.

*lol

Ok, so let's assume that porn is ok, because acting is a legal profession with all the benefits, and you don't pay for it anyway, so there's no money involved from your side.

I still don't quite see how giving legal status and protection to prostitutes is going to endanger your kids and grandkids....

I still don't quite see how giving legal status and protection to prostitutes is going to endanger your kids and grandkids....
1. Leaglization implies permission. It gives whatever is legalized a certain patina of "respectability." Raising children is difficult enough without having the law tell them it's ok to do something mom and dad dispise and which they know will be bad for their children.

2. Prostitution lends itself to a general moral laxity in society as a whole.

3. Legalization does not assure protection from anything.

4. There is already more than enough abuse of women. Prostitution, legalized or not, only adds to it.

1. Leaglization implies permission. It gives whatever is legalized a certain patina of "respectability." Raising children is difficult enough without having the law tell them it's ok to do something mom and dad dispise and which they know will be bad for their children.
Parents, both black and white, thought segregation was a good idea, or at least not worth fighting. Just becasue one's parents think something, doesn't make it right.
2. Prostitution lends itself to a general moral laxity in society as a whole.
Moral laxity is a relative and, quit frankly, usleless term.
3. Legalization does not assure protection from anything.
True, but why does that matter? People have the right to be idiots.
4. There is already more than enough abuse of women. Prostitution, legalized or not, only adds to it.
If it was legal, then prostitutes could go to the police. They wouldn't have to rely on pimps to ensure that they get paid.

1. Leaglization implies permission. It gives whatever is legalized a certain patina of "respectability." Raising children is difficult enough without having the law tell them it's ok to do something mom and dad dispise and which they know will be bad for their children.

So, you would argue that it's not ok for adults to do what they want with their bodies? Just because it might be a bad example for your children?


2. Prostitution lends itself to a general moral laxity in society as a whole.

It exists. It always has existed, and it always will exist. In fact, prostitution tends to flourish in repressive and "moral" societies a lot more than in relaxed and open-minded societies.


3. Legalization does not assure protection from anything.

Legalisation alone, no. Legal recognition of the profession, yes.


4. There is already more than enough abuse of women. Prostitution, legalized or not, only adds to it.

Prostitution, legalised or not, already exists. It's not a question of adding, it's a question of giving prostitutes the rights they deserve...

1. Just becasue one's parents think something, doesn't make it right.

2. Moral laxity is a relative and, quit frankly, usleless term.

3. True, but why does that matter? People have the right to be idiots.

4. If it was legal, then prostitutes could go to the police. They wouldn't have to rely on pimps to ensure that they get paid.
1. True.

2. It is obviously relative, but definitely not "useless."

3. My children and grandchilren do not.

4. Riiiight. Ever tried to get the police in a major metropolitan area to look for a stolen car or investigate a minor robbery, or even give a case of "date rape" a thorough investigation?

At least I don't pay for it.

Oh well, that makes it better then, doesn't it? You feel that working in the sex industry is so degrading that you would disown your children if ever they stooped that low, and yet, when a woman is willing to swallow her pride and demean herself like that, you feel entitled to enjoy the fruits of her labor, but don't think she's entitled to be compensated for said labor? I seriously hope that your unwillingness to pay for your porn isn't meant to be some sort of moral statement.

I dont support it because I believe sex is a part of marriage. IE a comited long term loving relationship made binding by an agreement between the partners and God. So paying for sex is basicly taking sex out of the context it was made to be in.

It exists. It always has existed, and it always will exist. In fact, prostitution tends to flourish in repressive and "moral" societies a lot more than in relaxed and open-minded societies.


That doesnt take anything away from the fact that it does degenerate the moral fabric of society

That doesnt take anything away from the fact that it does degenerate the moral fabric of society

If it did, there would be no "moral fabric" left by now.... Prostitution is as old as marriage, if not older.

And I'm definitely in favor of legalising prostitution, because I see absolutely nothing inherently wrong or immoral in selling sex. Decision to become a sex worker concerns only the person who makes it, and for such decisions one shouldn't be held accountable to anyone, not the government, not even one's parents (provided that we're talking about an adult here). If the business were government sanctioned and monitored, it would help reduce the the abuse and the exploitation practised when the criminal element controls the business.

And no, I don't have daughters. I have a sister, but that's really not the same thing, is it? I know I wouldn't like my daughter (or my sister) participating in the sex industry, but I hope that if I ever have to cross that bridge, I'll be man enough to recognise her right make her own decisions, even if they're decisions I don't like.

That doesnt take anything away from the fact that it does degenerate the moral fabric of society

"Degenerates the moral fabric". That's a nice and abstract way of putting it. What would the real, concrete damage of said degeneration be?

I answered "I Don't Care", because I don't think its an industry that can be effectively regulated. Sure, if it were legalized and incorporated into mainstream business things would improve for both consumers and suppliers. The problem is that sex is completely inseperable from its moral issues in the human psyche, and the result of legalization would be a whole lotta protests. I think that prostitutes absolutely have the right to run their businesses, the trouble is that their business happens to jarr irrevocably with the morality of practically every religion.

And here's soem food for thought: we're all a little disturbed by how exposed to sexual imagery young children are becoming. What if prostitution were mainstream? Brothel advertising? Yea, I know, its not like the internet could get much more tasteless, but even non-religious activists would oppose this in a heartbeat.

And here's soem food for thought: we're all a little disturbed by how exposed to sexual imagery young children are becoming. What if prostitution were mainstream? Brothel advertising? Yea, I know, its not like the internet could get much more tasteless, but even non-religious activists would oppose this in a heartbeat.

Um.... no, we're not. I'm personally much more disturbed by the violence kids are exposed to while watching the news.

And what's wrong with brothel advertising?
I'm originally from Germany, and you do get advertisments for brothels and most of all for phone sex lines a lot. Doesn't bother people too much, really....

the trouble is that their business happens to jarr irrevocably with the morality of practically every religion.

I'm pretty sure LaVey Satanism doesn't have a problem with it, I don't recall hearing any scientologist speak out against it, I'm unsure if wicca has anything against it, and thats just off the top of my head. True some religions have a problem with it but not practically ever one.

Bad joke about marriage aside, the problem of human trafficking is a major one.

I support prostitution when the women involved have a free choice and start on an even playing field.

But too much of the world's prostitution trade is based on the forcing of women (and boys) into prostitution against their will. That is intolerable. It is evil of the worst kind.

dammit so much for incendiary debate or jokes..I actually agree with this...what is next no more jokes about radical muslims and retarded evangicals....oh how the world has grown dimmer

"Degenerates the moral fabric". That's a nice and abstract way of putting it. What would the real, concrete damage of said degeneration be?
Simply because you can't measure it, feel it, see it, smell it or understand it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

you know what Eutrusca go and get a soapy then tell me how prostitution is wrong...damn I would almost sell my mom for another one of those...it is like the crystal meth of sex...mmmmmmm

you know what Eutrusca go and get a soapy then tell me how prostitution is wrong...damn I would almost sell my mom for another one of those...it is like the crystal meth of sex...mmmmmmm
:rolleyes:

Son, I've done things you can't even begin to imagine. Heh!

I answered "I Don't Care", because I don't think its an industry that can be effectively regulated.
Industry needs no regulation.
Sure, if it were legalized and incorporated into mainstream business things would improve for both consumers and suppliers.
Yep.
The problem is that sex is completely inseperable from its moral issues in the human psyche,
Bull shit.
and the result of legalization would be a whole lotta protests.
Too bad.
I think that prostitutes absolutely have the right to run their businesses, the trouble is that their business happens to jarr irrevocably with the morality of practically every religion.
Those relgions can mind their own fucking business.
And here's soem food for thought: we're all a little disturbed by how exposed to sexual imagery young children are becoming.
I'm not. I don't think it's bad for them, and if it is, I couldn't give a fuck.
What if prostitution were mainstream? Brothel advertising? Yea, I know, its not like the internet could get much more tasteless, but even non-religious activists would oppose this in a heartbeat.
That's because people can't mind their own fucking business.

:rolleyes:

Son, I've done things you can't even begin to imagine. Heh!

I doubt that I served 7 with the USMC which included trips to Thailand...not sure there is anything that you can't find in Thailand

I support legalizing prostitution, for three reasons.

1. If prostitutes are driven to it by economic conditions, then by banning it you are only hurting them by denying them the capability to emerge from such conditions.
2. The government has no business regulating anybody's sexual lifestyle, as long as it is consensual.
3. It will help prostitutes, and as someone who believes in moral decency, that's the key factor for me.

Simply because you can't measure it, feel it, see it, smell it or understand it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

I feel that restricting anyone's freedom to make decisions about their own life, body and health is immoral. I feel that as immoral thing that "degenerates the moral fabric of society", whereas legalised prostitution would directly combat it.

See, morality is ultimately subjective. If you use moral fabric as a reason to justify laws, who decides what's immoral and what's not? How about having homosexuality deemed immoral? Or wrong political opinions? Or, say, not being a christian?

Everyone is allowed to have opinions, but when it comes to writing down laws, I'd really prefer if it'd be done based on things everyone can measure, feel, see, smell and understand.