NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad"


This whole fight is just getting started.

How the hell can a small series of cartoons showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban even remotely be considered equivalent to the brutal murder of over ten million innocent people?

I mean, talk about taking it to the extreme. If you want to draw them, go ahead...no one's going to stop you. This is not going to look particularly good for the radicals inciting the unrest when the West simply ignores their attempts to incite anger.

How the hell can a small series of cartoons showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban even remotely be considered equivalent to the brutal murder of over ten million innocent people?

Maybe they made Mohammed look really mean and ugly. Anyway, the Holocaust didn't happen. It's all just a fabrication of the Jews. I wonder why more people aren't listening to their mainstream ideas and are taking the side of the radical West...

How the hell can a small series of cartoons showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban even remotely be considered equivalent to the brutal murder of over ten million innocent people?

I mean, talk about taking it to the extreme. If you want to draw them, go ahead...no one's going to stop you. This is not going to look particularly good for the radicals inciting the unrest when the West simply ignores their attempts to incite anger.
You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons
"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

GOOD. fair is fair. it's about time.

Maybe they made Mohammed look really mean and ugly. Anyway, the Holocaust didn't happen. It's all just a fabrication of the Jews. I wonder why more people aren't listening to their mainstream ideas and are taking the side of the radical West...

i believe it happened. but i believe a lot of the facts are fabricated and/or skewed.

You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

There have been numerous instances of people drawing and making art related to Christianity that is incredibly offensive by the standards of followers of the faith...but they didn't storm, burn down or vandalize property or threaten to kill the people who made them. That reaction is unacceptable.

This is an overreaction incited by the leaders of the Middle East, nothing more.

I wasn’t aware that that the Mohamed cartoons were drawn by Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Polish Catholics…

I can't wait to see the winning cartoon, if they even publish it in the Occident, that is.

Even as a Jew, I'd have to say Iran is mostly acceptable in doing that. But, it was still a emotional event they are satiring, and Mohammed with a bomb isn't really satiring and event, but an idea.

There have been numerous instances of people drawing and making art related to Christianity that is incredibly offensive by the standards of followers of the faith...but they didn't storm, burn down or vandalize property or threaten to kill the people who made them. That reaction is unacceptable.

This is an overreaction incited by the leaders of the Middle East, nothing more.

Actually this has happened before in Islam.

Those idiots are just living up to their western stereotypical standards. The more this keeps up, the more people are gonna wonder if Islam is really a religion of peace, and if the people that hate infidels and hate the west are really only a few extremist...So I say, keep it going, A-rabs...The more of this shit you pull...the more people will realize that you guys are a bunch of violent idiots based on the destruction of the Jews (my religion) Isreal (my religion's country), the Christians, America, Europe and the west.

This'll show that damn Holocaust Memorial Society for publishing those cartoons.
. . . wait . . . .
Way to stick it to a completely unrelated group, assholes.

*coff* ...

Crossposting from other thread ...

*steps up to podium*

In the name of Allah, most Merciful, most Compassionate:

Any Muslim worth his or her salt does not really concern themselves with their image to anyone except Allah. No exceptions. "All praise is due to Allah alone, Lord of all the worlds." (Qur'an 1:2)

To redress the cartoon issue by doing the same in return is seeking a worldly reaction (be it praise or condemnation) and is, therefore, blasphemy. "O you who believe! Enter perfectly in Islâm (by obeying all the rules and regulations of the Islâmic religion) and follow not the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan). Verily! He is to you a plain enemy." (Qur'an 2:208)

I hereby condemn the actions of Hamshahri and call for a global boycott of it and anyone who does business with it or continues to advertise within its pages with knowledge of this blasphemy.

(See? I can do it, too!)

This'll show that damn Holocaust Memorial Society for publishing those cartoons.
. . . wait . . . .
Way to stick it to a completely unrelated group, assholes.

Seriously...they are just confirming their stereotype of being total anti semites...even *GASP* the ones that arnt terrorists.

Eh..whatever, old news.

If fundamentalist muslims are upset by the danish cartoons, this is exactly the best response they could choose.

Mudslinging isnt pretty, but its better than burning embassies or killing people.

If fundamentalist muslims are upset by the danish cartoons, this is exactly the best response they could choose.
No, the best response would be to go looking for cartoons that make fun of the Danish. Maybe draw a Viking with a bomb in place of his horned cap.

No, the best response would be to go looking for cartoons that make fun of the Danish. Maybe draw a Viking with a bomb in place of his horned cap.


It was a powerful insult to their religion, sort of like cartoons mocking jesus christ would be to christians.

If you would prefer they complain with molotov coctails and kalashnikov rifles, I disagree.

Pssh, let them run the cartoons. It will only expose the double-standard in their society; that we won't/can't riot over stuff like this but they can!

From the Times (http://nytimes.com/2006/02/08/international/europe/08islam.html?hp&ex=1139374800&en=102c025d3704270c&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

LONDON, Feb. 7 — As Islamic protests grew against the publication of cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad, a small but vocal Muslim immigrant organization responded with a drawing on its Web site of Hitler in bed with Anne Frank. "Write this one in your diary, Anne," Hitler was shown as saying.

It was a powerful insult to their religion, sort of like cartoons mocking jesus christ would be to christians.
Well then take down JC. The fact is, what they are doing is roughly akin to me punching my room mate in the face because my neighbour called me a fag.
My roomie has nothing to do with my neighbour's actions, so why would I punch him (unless I was just looking for an excuse to punch my roomie, and this was the strongest reason I could think of).
If you would prefer they complain with molotov coctails and kalashnikov rifles, I disagree.
I'd rather that they excise the goddamn stick from their bums, take a deep breath, get the fuck over themselves, and grow up. This is the Real Goddamn World(tm), and in the RGW, you realize thet you don't have the right to rule the world just because your particular spin on what God says allows you too.
And if you can't take the RGW, then it is your job to get out, not our job to coddle you.

I'd rather that they excise the goddamn stick from their bums, take a deep breath, get the fuck over themselves, and grow up. This is the Real Goddamn World(tm), and in the RGW, you realize thet you don't have the right to rule the world just because your particular spin on what God says allows you too.
And if you can't take the RGW, then it is your job to get out, not our job to coddle you.


That is all good and well if you are dealing with people who arent willing to fight for what they want, but these people are, which is the problem.

You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

But the newspaper don't follow Muslim laws. They don't need to follow them!

That is all good and well if you are dealing with people who arent willing to fight for what they want, but these people are, which is the problem.
No, the problem is that the west is no longer willing to fight to protect itself. What was the Danish Military doing when the embassy burned?
Instead of swatting down this sort of business as soon as it starts, the extremists (of any stripe) are coddled and "tolerated." Rather than being forced to grow up, petulant groups of fanatics are allowed to run free like spoiled children.
And then we congratulate them for "Not hurting anyone." Well, somehow I've managed to avoid killing or assaulting anyone with AK-47s or molitov cocktails. Where's my fucking gold star?

No, the problem is that the west is no longer willing to fight to protect itself. What was the Danish Military doing when the embassy burned?
Instead of swatting down this sort of business as soon as it starts, the extremists (of any stripe) are coddled and "tolerated." Rather than being forced to grow up, petulant groups of fanatics are allowed to run free like spoiled children.
And then we congratulate them for "Not hurting anyone." Well, somehow I've managed to avoid killing or assaulting anyone with AK-47s or molitov cocktails. Where's my fucking gold star?

I dont think the danish care too much for a military, and I doubt they garrison their embassies with crack troops.

Your gold star is getting to live in the developed world.

I dont think the danish care too much for a military, and I doubt they garrison their embassies with crack troops.
I doubt that the people burning the embassy were crack troops either.
Your gold star is getting to live in the developed world.
Plenty of murderers live in the developed world, and plenty of people in the undeveloped world live better than I do.

I doubt that the people burning the embassy were crack troops either.

Plenty of murderers live in the developed world, and plenty of people in the undeveloped world live better than I do.


I imagine the embassy arsonists had numbers on their side.

Those people live in prison.

I imagine the embassy arsonists had numbers on their side.
Pure numbers are nothing if the enemy is decently equipped and trained. Especially since unruly mobs tend to disperse under automatic fire.
Those people live in prison.
The Imams in Iran are in prison? Or were you refering to the numerous murderers who are never caught and live out there lives nice and easy in the US?

Pure numbers are nothing if the enemy is decently equipped and trained. Especially since unruly mobs tend to disperse under automatic fire.

The Imams in Iran are in prison? Or were you refering to the numerous murderers who are never caught and live out there lives nice and easy in the US?


Is your problem with catching murderers in the US? Does that have anything at all to do with the topic? I obviously meant that people who throw molotov coctails at buildings and shoot people with assault rifles are considered criminals in the developed world, obviously.

Vegetarianistica']GOOD. fair is fair. it's about time.
You really are just an anti-semitic Nazi. The Jews didn't draw those cartoons.
Look what the Muslims have been drawing for years though.
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm

You say fair is fair? They've been doing this shit for decades. Then when 12 cartoons are drawn the Muslims riot. I don't recall Jews rioting after these cartoons were printed.

Is your problem with catching murderers in the US? Does that have anything at all to do with the topic? I obviously meant that people who throw molotov coctails at buildings and shoot people with assault rifles are considered criminals in the developed world, obviously.
And I obviously meant that throwing molotov cocktails at buildings shouldn't be considered normal or acceptable (both of which are implied when you act pleased that someone demonstrates even that minimal restraint)

And I obviously meant that throwing molotov cocktails at buildings shouldn't be considered normal or acceptable (both of which are implied when you act pleased that someone demonstrates even that minimal restraint)


Some is better than none.

Or were you refering to the numerous murderers who are never caught and live out there lives nice and easy in the US?The Marcoses?, the Trujillos?,the Pahlavis?,the Pinochets? the Somozas? etc, etc, etc.

Some is better than none.
So, basically, you're saying that I have higher standards of behaviour for my dog, then you have for the Muslim world?

"Disrespecting different religions and the sanctities of different countries is not something that can be accepted," said Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki.

Followed by this announcement;
Holocaust Humor in Iran (http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1703925,00.html?gusrc=rss)

Muslims have never found it necessary to focus on their own heinous representations of Jews and Christians in their largely government-run papers. Now they are shocked? Hypocrites? No - Simply demonstrating the true colors of Muslims.

There have been numerous instances of people drawing and making art related to Christianity that is incredibly offensive by the standards of followers of the faith...but they didn't storm, burn down or vandalize property or threaten to kill the people who made them. That reaction is unacceptable.

This is an overreaction incited by the leaders of the Middle East, nothing more.

Yeah, man. Anybody ever watch South Park? I'm an atheist and that was offensive. I'm very proud of the fact that I didn't set fire to anything over it though!

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with drawing cartoons that are sure to offend and anger people.

There is something wrong with setting fires and shooting people.

One is absolutely more desirable than the other.

The Pentagon Breaks the Islam Taboo
By Paul Sperry , FrontPageMagazine.com

December 14, 2005 Washington's policy-makers have been careful in the war on
terror to distinguish between Islam and the terrorists. The distinction has
rankled conservatives who see scarce difference.
A little-noticed speech by President Bush in October gave them some hope. In a
major rhetorical shift, he described the enemy as "Islamic radicals" and not
just "terrorists," although he still denies that radicalism has anything to do
with their religion.
Now for the first time, a key Pentagon intelligence agency involved in homeland
security is delving into Islam's holy texts to answer whether Islam is being
radicalized by the terrorists or is already radical. Military brass want a
better understanding of what's motivating the insurgents in Iraq and the
terrorists around the globe, including those inside America who may be preparing
to strike domestic military bases. The enemy appears indefatigable, even more
active now than before 9/11.
Are the terrorists really driven by self-serving politics and personal demons?
Or are they driven by religion? And if it's religion, are they following a
manual of war contained in their scripture?
Answers are hard to come by. Four years into the war on terror, U.S.
intelligence officials tell me there are no baseline studies of the Muslim
prophet Muhammad or his ideological or military doctrine found at either the CIA
or Defense Intelligence Agency, or even the war colleges.
But that is slowly starting to change as the Pentagon develops a new strategy to
deal with the threat from Islamic terrorists through its little-known
intelligence agency called the Counterintelligence Field Activity or CIFA, which
staffs hundreds of investigators and analysts to help coordinate Pentagon
security efforts at home and abroad. CIFA also supports Northern Command in
Colorado, which was established after 9/11 to help military forces react to
terrorist threats in the continental United States.
Dealing with the threat on a tactical and operational level through
counterstrikes and capture has proven only marginally successful. Now military
leaders want to combat it from a strategic standpoint, using informational
warfare, among other things. A critical part of that strategy involves studying
Islam, including the Quran and the hadiths, or traditions of Muhammad.
"Today we are confronted with a stateless threat that does not have at the
strategic level targetable entities: no capitals, no economic base, no military
formations or installations," states a new Pentagon briefing paper I've
obtained. "Yet political Islam wages an ideological battle against the
non-Islamic world at the tactical, operational and strategic level. The West's
response is focused at the tactical and operation level, leaving the strategic
level -- Islam -- unaddressed."
So far the conclusions of intelligence analysts assigned to the project, who
include both private contractors and career military officials, contradict the
commonly held notion that Islam is a peaceful religion hijacked or distorted by
terrorists. They've found that the terrorists for the most part are following a
war-fighting doctrine articulated through Muhammad in the Quran, elaborated on
in the hadiths, codified in Islamic or sharia law, and reinforced by recent
interpretations or fatwahs.
"Islam is an ideological engine of war (Jihad)," concludes the sensitive
Pentagon briefing paper. And "no one is looking for its off switch."
Why? One major reason, the briefing states, is government-wide "indecision
[over] whether Islam is radical or being radicalized."
So, which is it? "Strategic themes suggest Islam is radical by nature,"
according to the briefing, which goes on to cite the 26 chapters of the Quran
dealing with violent jihad and the examples of the Muslim prophet, who it says
sponsored "terror and slaughter" against unbelievers.
"Muhammad's behaviors today would be defined as radical," the defense document
says, and Muslims today are commanded by their "militant" holy book to follow
his example. It adds: Western leaders can no longer afford to overlook the "cult
characteristics of Islam."
It also ties Muslim charity to war. Zakat, the alms-giving pillar of Islam, is
described in the briefing as "an asymmetrical war-fighting funding mechanism."
Which in English translates to: combat support under the guise of tithing. Of
the eight obligatory categories of disbursement of Muslim charitable donations,
it notes that two are for funding jihad, or holy war. Indeed, authorities have
traced millions of dollars received by major jihadi terror groups like Hamas and
al-Qaida back to Saudi and other foreign Isamic charities and also U.S. Muslim
charities, such as the Holy Land Foundation.
According to the Quran, jihad is not something a Muslim can opt out of. It
demands able-bodied believers join the fight. Those unable -- women and the
elderly -- are not exempt; they must give "asylum and aid" (Surah 8:74) to those
who do fight the unbelievers in the cause of Allah.
In analyzing the threat on the domestic front, the Pentagon briefing draws
perhaps its most disturbing conclusions. It argues the U.S. has not suffered
from scattered insurgent attacks -- as opposed to the concentrated and
catastrophic attack by al-Qaida on 9-11 -- in large part because it has a
relatively small Muslim population. But that could change as the Muslim minority
grows and gains more influence.
The internal document explains that Islam divides offensive jihad into a
"three-phase attack strategy" for gaining control of lands for Allah. The first
phase is the "Meccan," or weakened, period, whereby a small Muslim minority
asserts itself through largely peaceful and political measures involving Islamic
NGOs -- such as the Islamic Society of North America, which investigators say
has its roots in the militant Muslim Brotherhood, and Muslim pressure groups,
such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations, whose leaders are on record
expressing their desire to Islamize America.
In the second "preparation" phase, a "reasonably influential" Muslim minority
starts to turn more militant. The briefing uses Britain and the Netherlands as
examples.
And in the final jihad period, or "Medina Stage," a large minority uses its
strength of numbers and power to rise up against the majority, as Muslim youth
recently demonstrated in terrorizing France, the Pentagon paper notes.
It also notes that unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam advocates
expansion by force. The final command of jihad, as revealed to Muhammad in the
Quran, is to conquer the world in the name of Islam. The defense briefing adds
that Islam is also unique in classifying unbelievers as "standing enemies
against whom it is legitimate to wage war."
Right now political leaders don't understand the true nature of the threat,\ it
says, because the intelligence community has yet to educate them. They still
think Muslim terrorists, even suicide bombers, are mindless "criminals"
motivated by "hatred of our freedoms," rather than religious zealots motivated
by their faith. And as a result, we have no real strategic plan for winning a
war against jihadists.
Even many intelligence analysts and investigators working in the field with the
Joint Terrorism Task Forces have a shallow understanding of Islam.
"I don't like to criticize our intelligence services, because we did win the
Cold War," says a Northern Command intelligence official. "However, all of these
organizations have made only limited progress adjusting to the current threat or
the sharing of information."
Why? "All suffer heavily from political correctness," he explains.
PC still infects the Pentagon, four years after jihadists hit the nation's
military headquarters.
"A lot of folks here have a very pedestrian understanding of Islam and the
Islamic threat," a Pentagon intelligence analyst working on the project told me.
"We're getting Islam 101, and we need Islam 404."
The hardest part of formulating a strategic response to the threat is defining
Islam as a political and military enemy. Once that psychological barrier has
been crossed, defense sources tell me, the development of countermeasures --
such as educating the public about the militant nature of Islam and exploiting
"critical vulnerabilities" or rifts within the Muslim faith and community -- can
begin.
"Most Americans don't realize we are in a war of survival -- a war that is going
to continue for decades," the Northcom official warns.
It remains to be seen, however, whether our PC-addled political leaders would
ever adopt such controversial measures.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060204FilibusterCartoons.gif

I thought the position of the Iranian government (and therefore the Iranian press) is that the holocaust never happened. Is this a tacit admission from Iran that they were, in fact, wrong about that now?

Also, what are they going to do when no-one gives a shit. Are they really so self-absorbed that they think everyone else shares there 12th cenury troglodyte world view?

I thought the position of the Iranian government (and therefore the Iranian press) is that the holocaust never happened. Is this a tacit admission from Iran that they were, in fact, wrong about that now?

Also, what are they going to do when no-one gives a shit. Are they really so self-absorbed that they think everyone else shares there 12th cenury troglodyte world view?

The thing is, they know that the US cares, since all they talk about is the possibilities of Iranian nuke programs these days.

And yes, the Iranian president did claim the that holocaust was a myth, and so they believed they are justified to print cartoons about it? what if we said that the Islam religion was a myth? Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if they started WWIII over it?

Shows you the difference between Jews and Muslims, doesn't it?

You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

Disrespecting a beloved figure, no matter how important that figure is, is not nearly as bad as glorifying an attrocity. Particularily what is arguably the greatest attrocity ever commited by mankind.

If merely drawing Mohammed is so offensive, then Muslims should inform the rest of the world of that fact beforehand, instead of waiting until it is already too late. It's hard to avoid offending another person if you have no idea what they do find offensive, and why.

Shows you the difference between Jews and Muslims, doesn't it?I dont see the difference...

Every party involved in this issue is being an asshat. EVERYONE.

The thing is, they know that the US cares, since all they talk about is the possibilities of Iranian nuke programs these days.


Anyway you slice it cartoons in iranian newspapers are really of no consequence to people who do not read them.

I can't imagine any reaction at all. (Well it's actually slightly risible, so I am laughing, but I don't think that's what they intended).

Nuclear weapons are a seperate issue.

Well they sort of DID inform the world of that fact... in the Qur'an... to bad nobody(not even me) outside of Islam ever reads the damn thing... I hope that doesnt set off another wave of protests.

Anyways... my personal opinion? The Muslims are taking this oberboard. I had a great amount of skepticism to anyone who says 'All muslims are bad!' and yadda, yadda, yadda. But this incident seems to have made that skepticism drop... I am REALLY beginning to wonder about Islamists sanity.

Of course I shouldnt be that surprised... get this, in the early 60s and Egyptian Film Studio made the film 'Muhammed:Prophet of God' (or something like that), they released the movie... and you dont even see Muhammeds SHADOW IN IT!!!! What happens? Massive protests spark off across the Middle East, Europe, and Southeast Asia. A group of African-American(I am not trying to be racist here, its just what I read) Muslims took HOSTAGES in the United States and demanded that the film be removed from the US's movie theaters... it was.

If merely drawing Mohammed is so offensive, then Muslims should inform the rest of the world of that fact beforehand, instead of waiting until it is already too late. It's hard to avoid offending another person if you have no idea what they do find offensive, and why.the mess could have been defused with a quick apology+retractacion..

But they did not.. instead other Newspapers were invited to publish the stupid cartoons...

Like i said.. Yes the Newspapers have the right to insult (freedom of speech).. and Yes the people has the right to protest (except the vandalism)..

BTW the Newspapers and some Gov have issued official apologies.. But too late.. the situation is chaotic .. It will take them a few days to realize.

the mess could have been defused with a quick apology+retractacion..


I believe some of the newspapers have apologized. JP, the original publisher, did last year. (Or at least there was a link to that effect floating around a while ago.)

The problem is that the protestors want apologies from the danish, french and norweigen governments. Obviously, none of them are in a positition to do that.

Well they sort of DID inform the world of that fact... in the Qur'an... to bad nobody(not even me) outside of Islam ever reads the damn thing... I hope that doesnt set off another wave of protests.

It is absurd to think that everyone should read the writings of every other religion, simply to avoid offending them. Most people don't even read their own religion's texts.

*coff* ...

Crossposting from other thread ...

*steps up to podium*

In the name of Allah, most Merciful, most Compassionate:

Any Muslim worth his or her salt does not really concern themselves with their image to anyone except Allah. No exceptions. "All praise is due to Allah alone, Lord of all the worlds." (Qur'an 1:2)

To redress the cartoon issue by doing the same in return is seeking a worldly reaction (be it praise or condemnation) and is, therefore, blasphemy. "O you who believe! Enter perfectly in Islâm (by obeying all the rules and regulations of the Islâmic religion) and follow not the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan). Verily! He is to you a plain enemy." (Qur'an 2:208)

I hereby condemn the actions of Hamshahri and call for a global boycott of it and anyone who does business with it or continues to advertise within its pages with knowledge of this blasphemy.

(See? I can do it, too!)

Your quotes don't correspond with your points... but yah, I gues most religious quotes never do anyway.

No, the best response would be to go looking for cartoons that make fun of the Danish. Maybe draw a Viking with a bomb in place of his horned cap.

You could show a bedouine fucking queen Margaret and I don't think a single Dane would care.

the mess could have been defused with a quick apology+retractacion..
Apologize for what? Apologizing is admitting that they were in the wrong for daring to offend muslims. This sort of coddling will result in this shit happening again the next time someone publicly mocks Mohammed.

That's just about the saddest thing I've ever heard.

I'm sure the only reason they're even going to bother making holocaust cartoons is the hope that somewhere, they will incite people to violence. After all, it's only natural to completely flip out over a drawing...isn't it?

I don't know what Iran, and the rest of the Islamic worlds reaction will be when the West scratches it's collective balls and yawns at yet another childish poke at a serious topic of discussion.

I do know that I wouldn't mind being around to see that reaction. :)

I don't know what Iran, and the rest of the Islamic worlds reaction will be when the West scratches it's collective balls and yawns at yet another childish poke at a serious topic of discussion.


I'll tell you exactly what'll happen. Iranian newspapers will find something somewhere that has nothing to do with their little drawings, and publish stories about how the west was 'bathed in blood' from the reaction to the cartoons.

They'll then condemn the 'great satan' for hypocracy.

I'll tell you exactly what'll happen. Iranian newspapers will find something somewhere that has nothing to do with their little drawings, and publish stories about how the west was 'bathed in blood' from the reaction to the cartoons.
Or they'll just make something up.
In the Great Satan of the West, several Jews attempted what experts are currently terming a "Great Train Robbery" in reaction to cartoons satirizing the Holocaust (which never happened).
"The West often ignores the violent nature of the Jew," Aryan Muhammed, Resident Jew Expert at the Iranian Univesity, "While unfairly targetting peaceful Muslims just because their fires *happened* to have occupied the same space and time as an embassy."
The casualties of the robbery, which took place just outside of Chicago, is estimated at 12,419,297, four more people than actually live in the state . . .

I'm sure the only reason they're even going to bother making holocaust cartoons is the hope that somewhere, they will incite people to violence.

Nah. Their cartoonists just do not know what else to draw. IDF has a point here: muslem papers have been printing extremely offensive (albeit better drawn) cartoons towards about every non-muslem population group for decades now. I do not recall Islamic governements issuing an apology for those - even though *their* influence in their countries press is often substantial.

As Keruvalia posted: responding in kind, but with restraint is the thing a good muslem would do. The Danish paper did just that.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad"


This whole fight is just getting started.

Sadly, I seriously doubt many of the people burning embassies will understand that all this will do is fuel political cartoons protraying Muhammad as Hitler. Too bad Godwin's Law doesn't apply to politics. :(

That's just about the saddest thing I've ever heard.

I'm sure the only reason they're even going to bother making holocaust cartoons is the hope that somewhere, they will incite people to violence.

Yeah, I'm sure the Danish cartoonists had a similar motive. Oh wait, only Muslims want violence. Europeans are 'expressing themselves.'

I believe some of the newspapers have apologized. JP, the original publisher, did last year. (Or at least there was a link to that effect floating around a while ago.)

The problem is that the protestors want apologies from the danish, french and norweigen governments. Obviously, none of them are in a positition to do that.
Like i said... Yes the Danish Newspaper has apologized... not before adding fuel to the fire...

AFAIK some Govs have apologized...

I don't think that Holocaust Cartoons will do much good for the Muslim community, because the Jews will simply not riot and not burn down embassies (do they even have an Iranian embassy?) to show how much more civilized they are.

Like i said... Yes the Danish Newspaper has apologized... not before adding fuel to the fire...

AFAIK some Govs have apologized...

I don't see how governments can be expected to apologize for something they have no control over. And doing so will only create further misunderstanding.

I'll tell you exactly what'll happen. Iranian newspapers will find something somewhere that has nothing to do with their little drawings, and publish stories about how the west was 'bathed in blood' from the reaction to the cartoons.

They'll then condemn the 'great satan' for hypocracy.

You mean we get to see Terminator 2 again at their expense? Bring on the cartoons *scratches nuts*

I'm a firm believer in freedom of expression. If people wish to make jokes about Mohammed, the holocaust, Jesus, me, my mother, my sister, my mother and my sister together... then that is their right.

I don't understand how if I draw a picture of a purple tellytubby and say it is Jesus or Mohammed, does that make it so?

How can anyone draw an accurate image of someone of whom there are no images? Perhaps I'm missing the point here. Perhaps someone can help me understand.

I don't see how governments can be expected to apologize ...I did not say I expect them... (lately I expect nothing from them)

I was simply stating a fact "Some Govs have already apologized" (or so I have heard)

I did not say I expect them... (lately I expect nothing from them)

I was simply stating a fact "Some Govs have already apologized" (or so I have heard)
Would not want my Gov to say sorry for something they have no control over. They could say sorry, we don't control the thoughts and minds of the papers editors, they could say sorry for having a country where people are allowed to express a thought or belief. But not for the actions of law abiding adults.

Would not want my Gov to ...Who is "your Gov"?

and when was the last time they cared... for your whatever you personally want?

Who is "your Gov"?

and when was the last time they cared... for your whatever you personally want?
They don't care. But I am responsible for my actions not them! I don't hold other gov's responsible for the actions of individuals unless they are acting as a representative of that country.

I don't hold other gov's responsible for the actions of individuals unless they are acting as a representative of that country.. unless they are acting as a representative of that country.We Carpet Bombed Afghanistan, Killed hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan and Iraq.. Kidnapped and Tortured Talibans...

Yet Ossama has never been an employee or representative of the Afghanistan Gov. (or the Iraq Gov)

There have been numerous instances of people drawing and making art related to Christianity that is incredibly offensive by the standards of followers of the faith...but they didn't storm, burn down or vandalize property or threaten to kill the people who made them. That reaction is unacceptable.

This is an overreaction incited by the leaders of the Middle East, nothing more.

1. You assume that the insult to Chritiainity was equal to that of the insult to Islam. I don't believe you can judge that.

2. Never a protest that got out of hand. Can you prove that, skippy?

3. Your point is little more than Christians are better than Muslims. That is schoolyard. The truth of the matter is that vast populations of muslims live in oppressive states and poverty. Those states manipulate news like this to distract the populace from its real problems. And we keep playing the Dope to the Islamic states Rope-a-Dope.

It is absurd to think that everyone should read the writings of every other religion, simply to avoid offending them. Most people don't even read their own religion's texts.

Of course, that has nothing to do with what happened here.

The cartoons were deliberately drawn to outrage muslims. There was no innocent mistake.

The cartoons were deliberately drawn to outrage muslims.
This you know for sure?

*sigh* Isn't it amazing how EVERYONE is at each other's throats?

This you know for sure?What other logical reason can your own brain provide ???

:confused:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad"


This whole fight is just getting started.
Good lord, the world is populated by whimpering children.

"He started it!"
"Did not! He did"
"Did not! Did not times infinity!"
"Did so times infinity plus GOD!"
"Did not time infinity plus the REAL GOD!"

Boo freaking hoo. I hope the whole superstitious lot wipe each other off the face of the Earth. Then we grown ups can get back to the business of living.

This you know for sure?

Yep. It is rather obvious on the face of it. And J_P has admitted it.

Good lord, the world is populated by whimpering children.

"He started it!"
"Did not! He did"
"Did not! Did not times infinity!"
"Did so times infinity plus GOD!"
"Did not time infinity plus the REAL GOD!"
LOL...

Notice to all Jews, Christian and Muslims: we have the same God.

You have the same God damn God !! ..Forgive me God :-) I am just trying to get their moronic brains to work a bit.

We are all talking about the same God of Abraham and Moises..

Yep. It is rather obvious on the face of it. And J_P has admitted it.
And? Is that a crime?

Yes, it may not have been a nice thing to do, but we're not dhimmi, are we? And we live in the West, don't we? And the Danish cartoonists are not Muslims, are they?

Is there a US court of law that would prevent a US newspaper and US cartoonists from publishing such cartoons?

Would you, as a lawyer, argue that no US publication has the legal right to publish such pictures?

Yep. It is rather obvious on the face of it. And J_P has admitted it.

They have?
Took me 4 minutes 37 seconds to find this link:

http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646

In our opinion, the 12 drawings were sober. They were not intended to be offensive, nor were they at variance with Danish law, but they have indisputably offended many Muslims for which we apologize.

Maybe because of culturally based misunderstandings, the initiative to publish the 12 drawings has been interpreted as a campaign against Muslims in Denmark and the rest of the world.

I must categorically dismiss such an interpretation. Because of the very fact that we are strong proponents of the freedom of religion and because we respect the right of any human being to practise his or her religion, offending anybody on the grounds of their religious beliefs is unthinkable to us.

That this happened was, consequently, unintentional.

So now they admit that the holocaust is a real event and that we didn't make it up. according to their president, drawing cartoons about the holocaust would actually be hurting their cause as he believes it to be a "myth of the west" - wouldn't that make Mohammed a myth as well?

the logic doesn't quite work. maybe they should issue a statement along with the cartoons making fun of the Nazi genocide that indicates that they believe it happened. but essentially they would be doing the same irresponsible thing that these idiots in Denmark did. they would be irresponsibly publishing something that they knew to be inflammatory. they would also be seeking to provoke some Israeli extremists into doing something reprehensible. Iran should wait to do that sort of thing until they actually have nukes. otherwise they're right in the middle should the Israelis get trigger happy and the Pakistanis respond to Israeli aggression.

this could be it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad"


This whole fight is just getting started.

And? Is that a crime?

Yes, it may not have been a nice thing to do, but we're not dhimmi, are we? And we live in the West, don't we? And the Danish cartoonists are not Muslims, are they?

Is there a US court of law that would prevent a US newspaper and US cartoonists from publishing such cartoons?

Would you, as a lawyer, argue that no US publication has the legal right to publish such pictures?

Nice red herrings.

Any US publication has the right to publish such pictures. That would not making publishing such pictures right.

Here, the pictures were published with the hope of creating just this type of reaction. That lingers close to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre.

I don't think it lingers illegal close, but irresponsible close.

You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

I agree, but are you going to start running in the streets looking for symbols of Iranian influence and start throwing things at them? not that it would be an easy thing to do mind you. if you live in a major city, there is probably an Iranian gov't. office somewhere, especially if there are people of Iranian descent living nearrby, but I don't think they publish their addresses widely.

And? Is that a crime?

Yes, it may not have been a nice thing to do, but we're not dhimmi, are we? And we live in the West, don't we? And the Danish cartoonists are not Muslims, are they?

Is there a US court of law that would prevent a US newspaper and US cartoonists from publishing such cartoons?

Would you, as a lawyer, argue that no US publication has the legal right to publish such pictures?are you talking about the Holocaust Cartoons?

is there a law? is it a crime?

There have been numerous instances of people drawing and making art related to Christianity that is incredibly offensive by the standards of followers of the faith...but they didn't storm, burn down or vandalize property or threaten to kill the people who made them. That reaction is unacceptable.

This is an overreaction incited by the leaders of the Middle East, nothing more.

They overreacted, I agree. But theres nothing to do with Middle East leaders. Iraq was invaded, Iran is being threatened, Afeghanistan was invaded, Siria is being threatened too...now all this anger and frustration is being directed against some stupid cartoons.

They have?
Took me 4 minutes 37 seconds to find this link:

http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646

In that link J-P admits they were "experimenting" with pushing the bounds of freedom of expression.

Then they expect us to believe that they had no idea that the cartoons might be offensive.

If you'll believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Of course, that has nothing to do with what happened here.

The cartoons were deliberately drawn to outrage muslims. There was no innocent mistake.

One matter I'm concerned about is the boost in sales of the papers carrying the cartoons. If its been discussed, I've missed it. I feel certain sales of the papers that published the cartoons have soared, profits have been greatly increased as people are now glued to the subject and its fallout.

I agree with freedom of speech, freedom of press.

At the same time, I dont like seeing people pitted against each other, resulting in 10 or more deaths now and destruction of public/private property.
This will likely get worse before its gets better. There are enough bitter differences between groups of people and its a shame a cartoon is the flashpoint for violence, hatred and ill-will. Right now, people that are entertained and thrilled by the insult are teaching their children to continue this pattern of bad behavior as are the people that were insulted by it and are over-reacting. Its cultivating an entire new crop/generation of hatred.
And someone is profitting hugely.

are you talking about the Holocaust Cartoons?

is there a law? is it a crime?

No. He's talking about the Muhammed cartoons. DK doesn't find them offenseive (imagine that!), so he claims to be unable to understand why thousands of muslims would be offended. It is a rather facile ploy.

LOL...

Notice to all Jews, Christian and Muslims: we have the same God.

You have the same God damn God !! ..Forgive me God :-) I am just trying to get their moronic brains to work a bit.

We are all talking about the same God of Abraham and Moises..
Um, that's nice, but who cares? So they're all acting like stupid babies over the same imaginary friend...is that supposed to redeem them? They're putting their paterialistic fantasies above human life and human dignity. They're pathetic children who should be spanked and sent to bed without their supper.

One matter I'm concerned about is the boost in sales of the papers carrying the cartoons. If its been discussed, I've missed it. I feel certain sales of the papers that published the cartoons have soared, profits have been greatly increased as people are now glued to the subject and its fallout.

I agree with freedom of speech, freedom of press.

At the same time, I dont like seeing people pitted against each other, resulting in 10 or more deaths now and destruction of public/private property.
This will likely get worse before its gets better. There are enough bitter differences between groups of people and its a shame a cartoon is the flashpoint for violence, hatred and ill-will. Right now, people that are entertained and thrilled by the insult are teaching their children to continue this pattern of bad behavior as are the people that were insulted by it and are over-reacting. Its cultivating an entire new crop/generation of hatred.
And someone is profitting hugely.

Exactly.

Where is this personal responsibility I always hear so much about?

No. He's talking about the Muhammed cartoons. DK doesn't find them offenseive (imagine that!), so he claims to be unable to understand why thousands of muslims would be offended. It is a rather facile ploy.
I understand wh they would be offended.

I'm saying that it's too bad. It's not illegal. It's bad taste, but so is most of the Howard Stern show.

No. He's talking about the Muhammed cartoons. DK doesn't find them offenseive (imagine that!), so he claims to be unable to understand why thousands of muslims would be offended. It is a rather facile ploy.
I can completely understand why they would be offended. What I can't understand is how adult human beings could convince themselves that they have the right to react in this manner.

Boo fucking hoo, somebody offended you...where the fuck have you been living, that nobody has offended you before? How the hell have you survived to adulthood in this world without having somebody piss you off? And how the hell has nobody hit you with a truck by now, if this is how you react whenever somebody hurts your bloody feelings? Grow up, you self-centered twits, and quit expecting the world to stroke your flacid ego. That's what your imaginary friend is for, so go cry to him about it.

I don't see how governments can be expected to apologize for something they have no control over. And doing so will only create further misunderstanding.
Well you see, the government do have control over it. They can enact laws to restrict freedom of speech, nationalize the newspaper industry and all kinds of other effects. The government is all-powerful.

You can see it as a kind of lobbying for the government to enact laws. God knows some government put pressures on other government to change their laws.

(Not that I think the government should do these things, but saying the government is powerless is ridiculous)

I agree, but are you going to start running in the streets looking for symbols of Iranian influence and start throwing things at them? No, but if before today some western newspaper published something making fun of the Hollowcaust.. the News Corp would have been forced to apologize..

The Muslims do not have that "official" power.. They don't have something like the Jewish Lobby.

so what they do? They take it to the streets.. with the ugly results we can see..

a mob is a mob.. wetter its about A Religions Taboo.. or winning a World-Championship-Ultimate-Trophy.. and ravaging your Victorious city.

Anyway, the Holocaust didn't happen. It's all just a fabrication of the Jews.

What you mean it was "quick the allies are here, starve yourselves and burn millions of bodies in the ovens so the germans look bad"?

or maybe

"I'm tired of life Adolf, I'm just going to get myself executed after we lose the war for war crimes, how can I make it look convincing"?

It happened okay... there is more evidence for it happening than O.J. committing murder and the existence of Jesus combined.

I can completely understand why they would be offended. What I can't understand is how adult human beings could convince themselves that they have the right to react in this manner.

Boo fucking hoo, somebody offended you...where the fuck have you been living, that nobody has offended you before? How the hell have you survived to adulthood in this world without having somebody piss you off? And how the hell has nobody hit you with a truck by now, if this is how you react whenever somebody hurts your bloody feelings? Grow up, you self-centered twits, and quit expecting the world to stroke your flacid ego. That's what your imaginary friend is for, so go cry to him about it.

1. I'm not defending the actions of violent protestors.

2. Usually when we get offended, we vent. If we are lucky the offender is still within reach (like on NS).

3. Here we have a bottle up population with huge problems and governments that stoke fanaticism to distract from their oppressive regimes. Thus you have kindling. The cartoons were just a match.

What you mean it was "quick the allies are here, starve yourselves and burn millions of bodies in the ovens so the germans look bad"?

or maybe

"I'm tired of life Adolf, I'm just going to get myself executed after we lose the war for war crimes, how can I make it look convincing"?

Yeah, I figure my grandpa woke up one morning and said, "Say, you know what would look really cool? If I tattooed a code number on my arm! Ooh, plus I should get my nose and facial bones broken, because chicks dig a guy with scars!"

1. I'm not defending the actions of violent protestors.

2. Usually when we get offended, we vent. If we are lucky the offender is still within reach (like on NS).

3. Here we have a bottle up population with huge problems and governments that stoke fanaticism to distract from their oppressive regimes. Thus you have kindling. The cartoons were just a match.

That's not our problem.

In that link J-P admits they were "experimenting" with pushing the bounds of freedom of expression.

Then they expect us to believe that they had no idea that the cartoons might be offensive.

If you'll believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Someone has to question the world, isn't that right? How can there be progress otherwise? Ellen Key, Galileo Galilei, Martin Luther, Johannes Gutenberg, we owe them a lot. I'm not saying JP is 100% right on any issue, just that sometimes someone has to be the first to take the first step in breaking taboos.

Besides, if you choose to not believe in their apology, then you might as well refute all their stories as lies - including the cartoons in question!

Want any help climbing out of that hole of yours now? :p

Someone has to question the world, isn't that right? How can there be progress otherwise? Ellen Key, Galileo Galilei, Martin Luther, Johannes Gutenberg, we owe them a lot. I'm not saying JP is 100% right on any issue, just that sometimes someone has to be the first to take the first step in breaking taboos.

Besides, if you choose to not believe in their apology, then you might as well refute all their stories as lies - including the cartoons in question!

Want any help climbing out of that hole of yours now? :p


I think Cat-Tribe wants to do away with free speech, or maybe he thinks the protesters are justified in being violent, or, I can't tell...

That's not our problem.

They are trying to make it our problem. That's what the attacks on embassies do.

No, the best response would be to go looking for cartoons that make fun of the Danish. Maybe draw a Viking with a bomb in place of his horned cap.

Maybe they could seriously diss Lego... Denmark's only contribution to world culture.

They are trying to make it our problem. That's what the attacks on embassies do.

Your signature:

"Without an unfettered press, without liberty of speech, all of the outward forms and structures of free institutions are a sham, a pretense -- the sheerest mockery. If the press is not free; if speech is not independent and untrammeled; if the mind is shackled or made impotent through fear, it makes no difference under what form of government you live, you are a subject and not a citizen."
--William E. Borah, U. S. Senator (1865-1940)

If we therefore submit to not printing these cartoons, out of fear that a few Muslims will get upset, they we are their subject.

I, for one, am never going to be their subject, even if it requires that I use force of arms to make it so.

Maybe they could seriously diss Lego... Denmark's only contribution to world culture.
I can't wait for them to stop buying Danish products.

More than half of the world's insulin in made in Denmark.

For those offended Muslim diabetics, if they boycott Denmark, they won't be around long enough to be offended by any future pictures of Mohammed.

Someone has to question the world, isn't that right? How can there be progress otherwise? Ellen Key, Galileo Galilei, Martin Luther, Johannes Gutenberg, we owe them a lot. I'm not saying JP is 100% right on any issue, just that sometimes someone has to be the first to take the first step in breaking taboos.

Besides, if you choose to not believe in their apology, then you might as well refute all their stories as lies - including the cartoons in question!

Want any help climbing out of that hole of yours now? :p

Cute. Do I believe their self-serving explanation long after the fact when it doesn't make sense on its face and is self-contradictory? No. Does that create a space-time-wormhole that erases the cartoons? Grow up.

Perhaps you should read my signature. I believe in the most robust of free speech and free press rights.

But, again, where is the responsibility?

Cute. Do I believe their self-serving explanation long after the fact when it doesn't make sense on its face and is self-contradictory? No. Does that create a space-time-wormhole that erases the cartoons? Grow up.

Perhaps you should read my signature. I believe in the most robust of free speech and free press rights.

But, again, where is the responsibility?
I don't think it's got a damn thing to do with "responsibility." The papers knew exactly what they were doing, and they got exactly what they intended to get out of it. They ARE taking responsibility for what they did, they just don't have any problem with the consequences.

The papers aren't "avoiding responsibility," they're just run by jackasses. The jackasses KNOW they are fully responsible for what is going on and they love every minute of it.

I think Cat-Tribe wants to do away with free speech, or maybe he thinks the protesters are justified in being violent, or, I can't tell...

If you walk up to a car of Steelers fans and blow seattle-colors graffitti all over their car, don't be suprised if some of them want to discuss the issue with you further.

I have yet to say that free speech should be in any way curtailed.

I have yet to defend violent protests.

I have merely suggested that one cannot tweak the tigers tail and then be surprised that the tiger may try to bite.

I don't think it's got a damn thing to do with "responsibility." The papers knew exactly what they were doing, and they got exactly what they intended to get out of it. They ARE taking responsibility for what they did, they just don't have any problem with the consequences.

The papers aren't "avoiding responsibility," they're just run by jackasses. The jackasses KNOW they are fully responsible for what is going on and they love every minute of it.

We agree.

And I'll I'm saying is at least some fingers pointed at the protestors should also point at the jackasses that profitted from this.

Your signature:



If we therefore submit to not printing these cartoons, out of fear that a few Muslims will get upset, they we are their subject.

I, for one, am never going to be their subject, even if it requires that I use force of arms to make it so.

I'm aware of my signature, thank you.

You have a point. But it falls a bit short.

So, tommorrow, the NYT should deliberately try to offend you. They should print obscene cartoons of Jesus having sex with Mary. Because if they don't we are all subjects?

We agree.

And I'll I'm saying is at least some fingers pointed at the protestors should also point at the jackasses that profitted from this.
See, now, I don't know about that. If we're talking about "pointing fingers" at everybody who has acted like a jackass in this situation, then I agree with you. However, if we are talking about pointing fingers at who is responsible for the current mayhem, then I think the only finger of blame should point at those who have decided to riot and raise hell.

I believe that we are all responsible for what we choose to do, and I don't think you get to blame your own lack of self-control on people who have provoked you. There are plenty of ways to respond to these cartoons that would not only have been more civilized, but also would have been far more effective. The rioters decided to act in a way that is totally unacceptable, and nobody--NOBODY--forced them to do that. They decided on their own. They are solely responsible for their illegal, dangerous, disgraceful actions.

Does that create a space-time-wormhole that erases the cartoons? Grow up.
Without stooping to the same immature offensive tone you are using; you sound very much like my 10-year old sister. "Grow up!"
I got a good laugh anyway, I'll give you credit for that. :)

It was very irresponsible for the editor in chief to print the cartoons. Perhaps in a perfect world he wouldn't have. Anyone's free to report him to the police though..

Now for something completely different:

http://www.police.uk/content/viewarticle.asp?xslfile=~xsl~transform_article.xsl&xmlfile=~_content~xml~news~Hamzabulletin.xml

EXTREMIST preacher Abu Hamza was today (7.2.06) jailed for seven years after being found guilty of encouraging his followers to murder non-Muslims in a series of sermons.

So we're not the only ones up here...

I'm aware of my signature, thank you.

You have a point. But it falls a bit short.

So, tommorrow, the NYT should deliberately try to offend you. They should print obscene cartoons of Jesus having sex with Mary. Because if they don't we are all subjects?

No, but they should feel free to do so. And if anyone is offended, that's too bad.

There's been plenty of art and cartoons ridiculing Christianity.

See any "International Day of Anger"?

See any embassies burned down?

Nope.

Maybe the people who got violent in those countries did so because the edge between Western thought and political belief ran up against 10th century stasis.

It's time that they read up on the Enlightenment, and get used to the idea of being lampooned.

See, now, I don't know about that. If we're talking about "pointing fingers" at everybody who has acted like a jackass in this situation, then I agree with you. However, if we are talking about pointing fingers at who is responsible for the current mayhem, then I think the only finger of blame should point at those who have decided to riot and raise hell.

I believe that we are all responsible for what we choose to do, and I don't think you get to blame your own lack of self-control on people who have provoked you. There are plenty of ways to respond to these cartoons that would not only have been more civilized, but also would have been far more effective. The rioters decided to act in a way that is totally unacceptable, and nobody--NOBODY--forced them to do that. They decided on their own. They are solely responsible for their illegal, dangerous, disgraceful actions.
AMEN!!!! I think I agree with every single word you typed!!! :)

The point is that 'some' muslims protested... not 'all'... 'some'.

The same way that 'some' christians make attacks on abortion clinics..... and 'some' wear white robes and lynch folks....
and 'some' would give you a serious ass-kicking for taking the Lord's name in vain.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad"
( shrug ) Of course we do. The entire thing is much ado about nothing but demented cartoonists. CARTOONISTS, for God's sake! :headbang:

See, now, I don't know about that. If we're talking about "pointing fingers" at everybody who has acted like a jackass in this situation, then I agree with you. However, if we are talking about pointing fingers at who is responsible for the current mayhem, then I think the only finger of blame should point at those who have decided to riot and raise hell.

I believe that we are all responsible for what we choose to do, and I don't think you get to blame your own lack of self-control on people who have provoked you. There are plenty of ways to respond to these cartoons that would not only have been more civilized, but also would have been far more effective. The rioters decided to act in a way that is totally unacceptable, and nobody--NOBODY--forced them to do that. They decided on their own. They are solely responsible for their illegal, dangerous, disgraceful actions.
*applaudes*
nicely said.

The point is that 'some' muslims protested... not 'all'... 'some'.

The same way that 'some' christians make attacks on abortion clinics..... and 'some' wear white robes and lynch folks....
and 'some' would give you a serious ass-kicking for taking the Lord's name in vain.
The point is that some people really like to make asses of themselves, and a great many of them find that religious dogma serves as an excellent excuse to do so. If religion did not exist then these people would probably just find another excuse to make asses of themselves. Religion is a tool that humans can use for any purpose that suits them (though it works better for some than for others), and it's a waste of time to blame religion for what is fundamentally a cultural, racial, and possibly economic problem.

It's a little misdirected, but I can see what they are getting at. I for one thought from the start that it would be a lot better if Muslims would fight back by parodying other religions in an offensive way which criticises the followers, instead of rioting and attacking embassies

Obviously the way they are going about it the wrong way though - Jewish, gypsies, and homosexuals had no hand in the cartoons and it's hardly appropriate - to generalise Islam as a religion of violence and suicide bombings is pretty ignorant (That means you Atlantian...I'm sorry you don't like "Them durn sandniggers, ahuck", but acknowledge your racism please) and offensive , but it's worse to mock the holocaust.

Perhaps if they were desperate to go after Judaism they could print cartoons of Jewish people killing innocent arabs whilst hiding behind the holocaust as a way of somehow justifying it. It would be in the same kind of league as the original cartoons - generalising a whole religion based on the actions of a few - and offensive, but it wouldn't be quite as awful.

See, now, I don't know about that. If we're talking about "pointing fingers" at everybody who has acted like a jackass in this situation, then I agree with you. However, if we are talking about pointing fingers at who is responsible for the current mayhem, then I think the only finger of blame should point at those who have decided to riot and raise hell.

I believe that we are all responsible for what we choose to do, and I don't think you get to blame your own lack of self-control on people who have provoked you. There are plenty of ways to respond to these cartoons that would not only have been more civilized, but also would have been far more effective. The rioters decided to act in a way that is totally unacceptable, and nobody--NOBODY--forced them to do that. They decided on their own. They are solely responsible for their illegal, dangerous, disgraceful actions.

Agreed. Peaceful protests are one thing. Riots are another.

I can completely understand why they would be offended. What I can't understand is how adult human beings could convince themselves that they have the right to react in this manner.

Boo fucking hoo, somebody offended you...where the fuck have you been living, that nobody has offended you before? How the hell have you survived to adulthood in this world without having somebody piss you off? And how the hell has nobody hit you with a truck by now, if this is how you react whenever somebody hurts your bloody feelings? Grow up, you self-centered twits, and quit expecting the world to stroke your flacid ego. That's what your imaginary friend is for, so go cry to him about it.


Another good point. I dont agree with deliberately offending people, however, I also dont agree with wild and violent over-reaction.

Its like an incident that sparks a violent "road-rage" confrontation. Two people driving seperate cars-maybe a little late for work, some traffic increases the anxiety of being late. These people have a lot on their minds, their problems are very real to them. One changes lanes without signaling-the other is offended and lets it be known with his middle finger-the other responds with his finger and maybe shouts an insult-what starts off as something that should be nothing escalates into two people having a demolition derby or beating the shit out of each other on the side of the road.

This is a problem where there should be no problem-its taking away valuable time and attention from real very real problems. Its further dividing groups in the name of freedom of speech. Its validating hatred and an adversarial atmosphere between two groups. And there is no easy solution.

hmmmm......What this newspaper is doing sounds vaguely familiar, I would not be surprised if the president of Iran himself had some hand in all this, and this is their idea of "freedom of speech"??

I dont think they understand the concept.

You could show a bedouine fucking queen Margaret and I don't think a single Dane would care.

That might be the reason they are going with insulting the Jews instead.

The problem when trying to "retaliate in kind" (a very poor reaction as Keruvalia pointed out, and not just by the tenets of Islam) is that they will have a hard time finding things people are so sensitive about as they are about Mohammed. As a rule, European Christians are neither devout nor vengeful enough to take offense to their religion being attacked, and our nationalistic pride is also not what it is elsewhere.

The only thing that is sure to strike Europeans' nerves is the holocaust. Partly because they suffered under it and the regime that caused it, but mostly because a large part of Europe (especially Germany, France, the Netherlands, Italy and Spain, though ironically not Denmark) was either directly or indirectly involved, and made themselves guilty partly through collaboration or inaction. To these nations, the holocaust is an open sore, and they are doubly sensitive to any slurs about Jews.

Note that the nations listed are exactly the ones which chose to reprint the cartoons.

In other words, when Iran is choosing to ridicule the holocaust, it is not "sticking it on the Jews" as so many have claimed; it is targetting the most sensitive political topic for most nations that are involved. The fact that they aren't exactly cozy with Israel helps, but I doubt it is the main factor.

In effect, Iran is invoking Godwin's Law. And doing so deliberately.

... this is their idea of "freedom of speech"?? I though it was our idea...
Wasnt it? :confused:

Agreed. Peaceful protests are one thing. Riots are another.
I think that's probably where most of my anger comes from in this situation...the riots aren't even helping anything!!!! The riots are not only completely uncivilized and out of control, they are also totally ineffective. If rioting might have accomplished something positive then perhaps I could at least partially cut them some slack...but nope. They picked the most counter-productive course of action possible.

Note that the nations listed are exactly the ones which chose to reprint the cartoons.Eh? Since when does Soir speak for all of France or Die Welt for all of Germany?

Eh? Since when does Soir speak for all of France or Die Welt for all of Germany?

Oh, I thought that Busen or Bild spoke for all of Germany, and Hustler spoke for all of the US.

How the hell can a small series of cartoons showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban even remotely be considered equivalent to the brutal murder of over ten million innocent people?

Welcome to the crazy world of organised religion :D

Im accualty all for this, sice freedome of expression is freedom of expression. I think its a lot more positiveway to deal with there feelings twards the orriginal comics than buning down the dutch embasy.

Oh, I thought that Busen or Bild spoke for all of Germany, and Hustler spoke for all of the US.Well, Bild claims to speak for all of Germany, but they're ranting about blasphemy against Christianity being legal and whatnot right now (and they don't speak for everyone (http://www.bildblog.de)).

Well, Bild claims to speak for all of Germany, but they're ranting about blasphemy against Christianity being legal and whatnot right now (and they don't speak for everyone (http://www.bildblog.de)).

Busen is better, IMHO...

In effect, Iran is invoking Godwin's Law. And doing so deliberately.the counter-Cartoons are in a way.. Jewish Law.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_eye_for_an_eye

and I fully expected them to do that.. I also fully expect multiple Newspapers to follow suit..

free speech

freedom of the press

well if the european nations can do it

why not Iran?

these are the fundamental of a western democracy, but yet when it comes to an alternative opinion on the holocaust (im not denying that in didnt take place, in fact i believe it did take place) u guys get all squirmish abt it.

those cartoons struck the nerve system of the international muslim community,where it hurts them most. at least now its a challenge on the intellectual level rather than a violent one. so i guess Iran also want to strike europe where it hurts most.

i mean, if you are against Iran publishing such cartoons and support the Muhammad cartoons, then i guess well u knoe wad i mean =)

the counter-Cartoons are in a way.. Jewish Law.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_eye_for_an_eye

and I fully expected them to do that.. I also fully expect multiple Newspapers to follow suit..

Are you saying that Jews drew the original cartoons, and not the Danish non-Jewish cartoonists?

now here's a question.

supposing the holocaust cartoons come out. what in your opinion is the best response the Jewish community should do.

I think they should have a two fold plan.

first, ask and demand an apology. no riots, just demand a printed apology. if they do so, then flood the paper with letters forgiving them.

if they don't, then sue the paper. each person who sees the cartoon, should sue for emotional distress.

why? think about it.

to sit back and not do anything will cause hate speeches and propganda to sprout up under the banner of "Free Speech"

to riot and complain will prove the Musilms rioting right.

but to first ask for and receive an apology and thus forgiving them, shows a more peaceful way of conflict resolution. Sueing them is another. through legal means and not demanding that their government censors them. it does not touch on free speech, but also adds some responsiblitiy. since it can be proven that such holocaust cartoons were asked for with the distinct purpose to incite to riot.

what do you people think? what ideas do you have?

now here's a question.

supposing the holocaust cartoons come out. what in your opinion is the best response the Jewish community should do.

I think they should have a two fold plan.

first, ask and demand an apology. no riots, just demand a printed apology. if they do so, then flood the paper with letters forgiving them.

if they don't, then sue the paper. each person who sees the cartoon, should sue for emotional distress.

why? think about it.

to sit back and not do anything will cause hate speeches and propganda to sprout up under the banner of "Free Speech"

to riot and complain will prove the Musilms rioting right.

but to first ask for and receive an apology and thus forgiving them, shows a more peaceful way of conflict resolution. Sueing them is another. through legal means and not demanding that their government censors them. it does not touch on free speech, but also adds some responsiblitiy. since it can be proven that such holocaust cartoons were asked for with the distinct purpose to incite to riot.

what do you people think? what ideas do you have?


If it hasn't been made abundantly clear by Iranian statements in the press, the Iranians are asserting that the cartoons are solely the province of a Jewish plot to ridicule the Prophet - nothing more, nothing less.

Ocean apparently believes this, because he said it was appropriate to "Jewish law". Well, you would only bring that up if you were trying to "pay back the Jews" for some offense.

This rabid anti-Jew mentality that the Iranians have is far, far more vitriolic than anything Hitler ever let slip from his mouth.

Having a picture of muhammed in Islam is beyond a sin its unthinkable to them. In the entire history of the religion there has never been a picture of him anywhere. So to publish a just a picture is bad enough but to publish a cartoon mocking Muhammed is extremely bad to them. Im not saying that they should be reacting the way they have been for a week but you have to look at both sides of the stories.

Anyone that thinks the hollocaust is just a made up story needs to seriously get their head checked out. Its like saying that 9/11 didnt happen times a million.

As for iran wanting to publish the hollocaust cartoons..fine its their freedom of speech but its more like your junior high playground crap then a responible adult government reaction.

I think that's probably where most of my anger comes from in this situation...the riots aren't even helping anything!!!! The riots are not only completely uncivilized and out of control, they are also totally ineffective. If rioting might have accomplished something positive then perhaps I could at least partially cut them some slack...but nope. They picked the most counter-productive course of action possible.

Unfortunately, there are too many people that get caught up in the thrill of mob-mayhem. Then anything can be construed as a legitimate excuse for burning a car,smashing windows,trampling, looting, etc...

Look at here in the US when a basketball team loses-or even wins sometomes- a game and then your watching police cars being turned over and burned by a mob.

Its hard to understand when your sitting quietly in your home giving it rational thought. Some of those people arent so outraged by the deliberate insult as they are thrilled by taking part in destruction.

now here's a question.

supposing the holocaust cartoons come out. what in your opinion is the best response the Jewish community should do.

I think they should have a two fold plan.

first, ask and demand an apology. no riots, just demand a printed apology. if they do so, then flood the paper with letters forgiving them.

if they don't, then sue the paper. each person who sees the cartoon, should sue for emotional distress.

why? think about it.

to sit back and not do anything will cause hate speeches and propganda to sprout up under the banner of "Free Speech"

to riot and complain will prove the Musilms rioting right.

but to first ask for and receive an apology and thus forgiving them, shows a more peaceful way of conflict resolution. Sueing them is another. through legal means and not demanding that their government censors them. it does not touch on free speech, but also adds some responsiblitiy. since it can be proven that such holocaust cartoons were asked for with the distinct purpose to incite to riot.

what do you people think? what ideas do you have?
I think the Jews should do the same thing the Muslims should have done: get over themselves.

"Emotional distress?" Yeah, right. Boo hoo hoo, somebody drew a mean old cartoon! It hurted my feelings so bad that they should have to pay me money to mend my poor broken heart! And they should have to say how sorry they are for being meanie heads!

Or how about not. How about people quit expecting the whole world to like them. Guess what? There are people who hate the Jews. There are people who hate Muslims. There are people who hate you, people who hate me, and people who have so much time on their hands that they sit around thinking up new arbitrary groups to place people in so that they can maximize the number of Others to hate.

If somebody publishes a cartoon or article that you feel is deeply offensive, write a letter to the editor. Cancel your subscription if you like. But don't for one moment think that you deserve a paycheck just because your feelings are so very tender. And please, for pity's sake, quit acting like your superstitions deserve special treatment.

Here, the pictures were published with the hope of creating just this type of reaction. That lingers close to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre.


I absolutely have to disagree with that. Shouting 'fire' is something different; it's misinformation provided in such a manner that there is no time for the recipients to verify without acting upon, else they might risk burning to death in the event that it is true. Thus it is a blatant attempt to cause unneccesary panic an hence rplace the public at risk. There's also this issue that the people in the theater have no choice over whether or not they are 'exposed' to the false claim of fire.

Clearly the cartoons are different. They proffered no information that if people failed to act upon it, they would risk injury or death, nor was it in such a manner that there was no time to verify the 'truthfulness' of the situation. It was simply material that offended some muslim sensibilities. Further, no muslim has to look at the pages of JP, ever, the manner audience can self select.

I don't see the two as comparable at all. And where does it end? Do people have the right not to have there sensibilities offended in newspapers and plays absent other consideration? Should Whitehouse v. Lemon (UK case) be considered good law?

I'd also note that the vast majority of muslims are not actually protesting, obviously they care about as much as christians do over images mocking christ. (i.e. not at all/not enough to get ouot of bed for). If we continue to pander to this radical fringe it is just going further distort people's perspective of the 900,000,000 or so normal people who happen to practice islam.

A paper in Iran can't be sued by people from Israel, geniuses.

Having a picture of muhammed in Islam is beyond a sin its unthinkable to them. In the entire history of the religion there has never been a picture of him anywhere.

How can you say something that is wrong with such conviction? Mohammed's been getting drawn for centuries. There's an abundance of Persian friezes and things of him.

You're either blind ignorant or a liar.

So, from what I see in this thread...

All the Jews are upset/offended/outraged/spitting offensive generalities and the cartoons of the Holocaust weren't published yet. One can only imagine the reaction. :rolleyes:

I like the double standard also. Suddenly, because a newspaper decides to publish (or announce he will) a cartoon on the Holocaust, it's the whole fuckin' "a-rab" world being anti-semitic Holocaust-deniers, etc., etc.

And how about freedom of speech for that very paper? It only shows that, in their world as well, they value freedom of speech as much as you. So why the double standard, eh, guys?

By the way, the Mohammad cartoons weren't only an offense to their religion. It compared worshippers of Allah to "suicide bombers" and, by extension, mocked their resistance against the occupying powers (the two imperialist states: Israel and the US of A). So, yeah, most of them are pissed but for different reasons.

So religious extremists called protests and make huge noise, burning embassies and so on. But they're not a lot. The thousands we see in the protests aren't all extremists in their faith. They're simply pissed and following the guys who seem to be doing something (burning down embassies with a rather fiery (excuse the pun) rhetoric).

On the other hand, perhaps the most concerning (I'm not american nor brit') problem, a lot of muslims now get a good idea of what the "West" think of them. This will only fuel an already powerful insurgency in Iraq.

I like the double standard also. Suddenly, because a newspaper decides to publish (or announce he will) a cartoon on the Holocaust, it's the whole fuckin' "a-rab" world being anti-semitic Holocaust-deniers, etc., etc.Iranians aren't Arabs...
And it isn't really a newspaper choosing to publish it. The Iranian government has rigid censorship, if not direct control, of any media in their country.
And how about freedom of speech for that very paper? It only shows that, in their world as well, they value freedom of speech as much as you. So why the double standard, eh, guys?What? Iran value freedom of speech? You're kidding, right?
By the way, the Mohammad cartoons weren't only an offense to their religion. It compared worshippers of Allah to "suicide bombers" and, by extension, mocked their resistance against the occupying powers (the two imperialist states: Israel and the US of A). So, yeah, most of them are pissed but for different reasons.Imperialist states? Where's that rhetoric from?
So religious extremists called protests and make huge noise, burning embassies and so on. But they're not a lot. The thousands we see in the protests aren't all extremists in their faith. They're simply pissed and following the guys who seem to be doing something (burning down embassies with a rather fiery (excuse the pun) rhetoric).True. Most of those going out are probably carted there on purpose. If you compare what's going on in Iran to what's going on in Turkey, you can see completely different reactions.

See, now, I don't know about that. If we're talking about "pointing fingers" at everybody who has acted like a jackass in this situation, then I agree with you. However, if we are talking about pointing fingers at who is responsible for the current mayhem, then I think the only finger of blame should point at those who have decided to riot and raise hell.

I believe that we are all responsible for what we choose to do, and I don't think you get to blame your own lack of self-control on people who have provoked you. There are plenty of ways to respond to these cartoons that would not only have been more civilized, but also would have been far more effective. The rioters decided to act in a way that is totally unacceptable, and nobody--NOBODY--forced them to do that. They decided on their own. They are solely responsible for their illegal, dangerous, disgraceful actions.
Excellent! I agree! [ shocked look ] :eek:

I think the Jews should do the same thing the Muslims should have done: get over themselves.

"Emotional distress?" Yeah, right. Boo hoo hoo, somebody drew a mean old cartoon! It hurted my feelings so bad that they should have to pay me money to mend my poor broken heart! And they should have to say how sorry they are for being meanie heads!

Or how about not. How about people quit expecting the whole world to like them. Guess what? There are people who hate the Jews. There are people who hate Muslims. There are people who hate you, people who hate me, and people who have so much time on their hands that they sit around thinking up new arbitrary groups to place people in so that they can maximize the number of Others to hate.

If somebody publishes a cartoon or article that you feel is deeply offensive, write a letter to the editor. Cancel your subscription if you like. But don't for one moment think that you deserve a paycheck just because your feelings are so very tender. And please, for pity's sake, quit acting like your superstitions deserve special treatment.the point is what will be the results Bottle.

I imagine the Jews not doing anything... letting it slide. so what will happen? by using "Free speech" you might have Islamic Radicals spreading their hate and loathing under the guise of Free Speech. calling any attempts to curb their enthusiasm censorship.

but if that's ok with you. then it's ok with you.

So, from what I see in this thread...

All the Jews are upset/offended/outraged/spitting offensive generalities and the cartoons of the Holocaust weren't published yet. One can only imagine the reaction. :rolleyes:

I like the double standard also. Suddenly, because a newspaper decides to publish (or announce he will) a cartoon on the Holocaust, it's the whole fuckin' "a-rab" world being anti-semitic Holocaust-deniers, etc., etc.

And how about freedom of speech for that very paper? It only shows that, in their world as well, they value freedom of speech as much as you. So why the double standard, eh, guys?

By the way, the Mohammad cartoons weren't only an offense to their religion. It compared worshippers of Allah to "suicide bombers" and, by extension, mocked their resistance against the occupying powers (the two imperialist states: Israel and the US of A). So, yeah, most of them are pissed but for different reasons.

So religious extremists called protests and make huge noise, burning embassies and so on. But they're not a lot. The thousands we see in the protests aren't all extremists in their faith. They're simply pissed and following the guys who seem to be doing something (burning down embassies with a rather fiery (excuse the pun) rhetoric).

On the other hand, perhaps the most concerning (I'm not american nor brit') problem, a lot of muslims now get a good idea of what the "West" think of them. This will only fuel an already powerful insurgency in Iraq.
To put this as gently as possible: your grip on reality is tenuous at best.

So, from what I see in this thread...

All the Jews are upset/offended/outraged/spitting offensive generalities and the cartoons of the Holocaust weren't published yet. One can only imagine the reaction. :rolleyes:

That's where you're wrong, Buck. A number of such cartoons have already come out, one of which shows a naked Hitler with swastika tattoos on his chest in bed with a little girl and saying "Write that one up in your diary, Anne.". The Mohammed cartoons at least had some context. The Anne Frank cartoon is meant only to offend.

And how about freedom of speech for that very paper? It only shows that, in their world as well, they value freedom of speech as much as you.

Yes, you're absolutely right. Why, Iran demonstrated it's love of freedom of expression to the whole world just the other year when it burned alive over a hundred homosexuals.

By the way, the Mohammad cartoons weren't only an offense to their religion. It compared worshippers of Allah to "suicide bombers" and, by extension, mocked their resistance against the occupying powers (the two imperialist states: Israel and the US of A).

#1. "Compared" nothing. Suicide bombers (why the quotation marks, by the way? Would you prefer martyrs?) in the Middle East are worshippers of Allah, whether you like it or not.

#2. You mean the resistance that consists largely of suicide bombers? Yeah, now I see what you mean about the comparison being unjust, right enough...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad"...
Seem appropriate since we have already seen the East trying to extend it's principal of suppresion worldwide with regard to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad [PB&J].

the point is what will be the results Bottle.

I imagine the Jews not doing anything... letting it slide. so what will happen? by using "Free speech" you might have Islamic Radicals spreading their hate and loathing under the guise of Free Speech. calling any attempts to curb their enthusiasm censorship.

but if that's ok with you. then it's ok with you.
You're goddam right I support their freedom to hate. Why the hell not?

They can hate whoever they bloody well want to hate, and they can write about it in whatever newspaper feels like printing it. They can draw cartoons of whoever the fuck they want. They can deny whatever genocide or war or attrocity they've decided to deny this week. They can single out whichever arbitrary minority is pissing them off today. To put it simply, if they feel like showing their arses and publicly displaying their own hate and stupidity then they're welcome to do so...saves the rest of us the time it would have taken to expose them for what they are.

What they can't do is throw public tantrums like the ones we are seeing. It's that fucking simple, people. You are free to feel however you like, and you're free to talk about it with whomever feels like listening, and you can print your hate in whatever public forum will have you. But you are not free to riot, to vandalize, to harm others, or to engage in criminal activity. You can feel how you please, but you cannot act on your feelings however you please. This is not a difficult fucking concept.

And how about freedom of speech for that very paper? It only shows that, in their world as well, they value freedom of speech as much as you. So why the double standard, eh, guys?

The Holocaust cartoons have fuckall to do with freedom of speech. Those cartoons, just like the anti-Muslim ones, are about some jackasses poking at other people with a pointy stick. Iran couldn't care less about freedom of expression or freedom of speech, they're just having fun getting a rise out of people because they know the reaction they can get by fucking with the Jews.

When your kid brother draws a picture of you with stink lines coming off of your butt, do you really think he gives two shits about "freedom of speech?" Hell no. He's a little pissant who wants attention, and he's doing it to see if he can provoke you.

I wounder what Jewish News Papers will print out in the following days?

You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

No one disputes the right to feel offended, but boycotts, flag burnings, killings and embassy attacks are not acceptable forms of expressing your dissatisfaction. I can GARANTEE you wont see people running to burn the Iranian embassy down or torch palestinean flags (even though they mock the jewish faith daily... hipocrits) I have little to no sympathy for these people as they are just like everyone else in the world. But no one else goes to these violent extremes

The Holocaust cartoons have fuckall to do with freedom of speech. Those cartoons, just like the anti-Muslim ones, are about some jackasses poking at other people with a pointy stick. Iran couldn't care less about freedom of expression or freedom of speech, they're just having fun getting a rise out of people because they know the reaction they can get by fucking with the Jews.

When your kid brother draws a picture of you with stink lines coming off of your butt, do you really think he gives two shits about "freedom of speech?" Hell no. He's a little pissant who wants attention, and he's doing it to see if he can provoke you.

So the best response would be to... do nothing. Say "Ok then. Print those other cartoons."

Accept it and move on- then we can all go back to discussing when Iran will be invaded instead. ;)

I wounder what Jewish News Papers will print out in the following days?I can barely wait for the Fireworks :D

The Holocaust cartoons have fuckall to do with freedom of speech. Those cartoons, just like the anti-Muslim ones, are about some jackasses poking at other people with a pointy stick. Iran couldn't care less about freedom of expression or freedom of speech, they're just having fun getting a rise out of people because they know the reaction they can get by fucking with the Jews.

When your kid brother draws a picture of you with stink lines coming off of your butt, do you really think he gives two shits about "freedom of speech?" Hell no. He's a little pissant who wants attention, and he's doing it to see if he can provoke you.and instead of showing the Right way to complain, or even the right way to use their freedom of Speech. you would rather risk giving them silent approval.

Bullies don't always look for a response, they also look to see how much they can get away with.

So the best response would to... do nothing. Say "Ok then. Print those other cartoons."

The best response would be, "Golly gee, cartoons that bash the Jews? However did you come up with such a creative idea! That's terrific! It's even more amazing because nobody has ever done it before, ever! Really, you guys are the first! I mean, nobody has ever though to insult the Jews, or to deny the Holocaust, so you guys are really some amazing activists and artists! So creative! So innovative! You've completely won me over with your brilliant, novel, insightful approach!"

Then, once their head have exploded due to the sarcasm overload, we can step over their corpses to grab the oil. It's what we're planning to do anyway, so why beat around the Bush?

and instead of showing the Right way to complain, or even the right way to use their freedom of Speech. you would rather risk giving them silent approval.

You really must not have any little kids in your life. You know how you deal with your kid brother when he's being a dink? You ignore him. Nothing will drive him up the wall more than being reminded of how irrelevant he is.

Same principle applies here. They wanna act like spoilt babies? Fine. Treat them that way. You're not "approving" of anything, you're simply giving this pointless behavior exactly the amount of attention it deserves: zero.


Bullies don't always look for a response, they also look to see how much they can get away with.
Who cares if they are "getting away" with having a tantrum? What the hell do we care? They can pitch their little hissy fits until the cows come home.

Of course, that has nothing to do with what happened here.

The cartoons were deliberately drawn to outrage muslims. There was no innocent mistake.

Yep.

I think it's all too easy for some people to anger muslims, to declare their religion barbaric, to invade their countries, and then point and see "Look! They're unhappy! This PROVES how inferior they are!"

You really must not have any little kids in your life. You know how you deal with your kid brother when he's being a dink? you're right, I don't have kids but I see two families almost every day and both have two different philosophies on how to raise their kids. One is following your path. "ignore them, they're just being kids." and their kids are brats. the other is "find ways to teach them how to behave" and they are angels. You ignore him. Nothing will drive him up the wall more than being reminded of how irrelevant he is.yep, irritate them and they find new ways to irritate back. nice plan... :rolleyes: Same principle applies here. They wanna act like spoilt babies? Fine. Treat them that way. You're not "approving" of anything, you're simply giving this pointless behavior exactly the amount of attention it deserves: zero.and you're also giving them room to manuver around in... but whatever. just remember your stance on this issue.Who cares if they are "getting away" with having a tantrum? What the hell do we care? They can pitch their little hissy fits until the cows come home.because while you're ignoring the Tantrums, you are also ignoring the signs that may lead to another act of hate that you say shouldn't be acted upon. by showing them how to properly combat what they see as hatred and ignorace, you can also stear them away destructive methods and towards more constructive ones.

Seriously...they are just confirming their stereotype of being total anti semites...even *GASP* the ones that arnt terrorists.

Eh..whatever, old news.

Well, I think they're mixing hate to Israel woth hate to jews, but it's difficult even to me to make difference. Before sionism, the safer place for a jew to live was Dar al Islam.

And, as i'm in a hurry, I want to say that there is religious censorship also about other religions, at least in Spain. Not with violence but it confirms me that any Truth (note the capital T, please) is an enemy to speech freedom

Some Muslims have tried to say sorry:

http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/index.html

well i think when the whole is stupid. so what if it makes u mad and u find it offensive, doing what they did there is proves the point of the cartoon more, so good job arabs make the whole region look worst then it already does. and yeah good job Iran on thinking up the idea about the anit jew cartoons, what u havent been doing those already and how the heck does it get the danish people back i have no clue. Just wait tell Israel bombs or nukes Iran and says it never happened.

Maybe they made Mohammed look really mean and ugly. Anyway, the Holocaust didn't happen. It's all just a fabrication of the Jews. I wonder why more people aren't listening to their mainstream ideas and are taking the side of the radical West...
Prove the holocaust didn't happen. Prove the evidence was fabricated.

you're right, I don't have kids but I see two families almost every day and both have two different philosophies on how to raise their kids. One is following your path. "ignore them, they're just being kids." and their kids are brats. the other is "find ways to teach them how to behave" and they are angels.

Oh, well if you've got ANECDOTAL evidence then that changes everything.

Of course, I happen to know a gadjillion families that use my method, and they all have angelic kids...so I WIN!!! MWA HA HA!!!

Seriously, though, what I find fascinating is that you bring PARENTING into this. We aren't their fucking parents, we're their siblings. It is supremely arrogant to assume that we are Daddy or Mommy and should thus be charged with diciplining them. They may be acting like children, but that doesn't make them ours.


yep, irritate them and they find new ways to irritate back. nice plan...

Honey, my entire point is that they can't irritate you if you don't let them. They can TRY to irritate you all they want, and I will defend their right to be annoying.


:rolleyes: and you're also giving them room to manuver around in... but whatever. just remember your stance on this issue.

I know I'm "giving them room to maneuver." They SHOULD have that room. Everybody should have room to say or think nasty things, if that's what they choose to do. I've got zero problem with that, and I'm not likely to forget it any time soon.


because while you're ignoring the Tantrums, you are also ignoring the signs that may lead to another act of hate that you say shouldn't be acted upon.

If the next "act of hate" is another bloody cartoon then I will care just as little when that time rolls around.


by showing them how to properly combat what they see as hatred and ignorace, you can also stear them away destructive methods and towards more constructive ones.I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we ought to act like grownups in this situation, but we are not their bloody parents. Hell, 9/10ths of their bitch with us is that we walk around like we're Big Fucking Papa, thinking we've got the right to take the kiddies out behind the woodshed if they act up.

It's also pretty arrogant to assume that the poor Muslims are so stupid that they don't understand "constructive methods" of dealing with these issues. They're not stupid. They know all that shit. They KNOW about all the alternatives. If all Muslims were mentally handicapped then nobody would be bitching right now, because we'd all be like, "Cut them a break, they don't know any better." The whole point is that they DO know better. Most of them act better. A few of them are choosing to act like idiots, but that doesn't mean that the Muslim world needs our Western asses educating them about how shit goes down.

Oh, well if you've got ANECDOTAL evidence then that changes everything.

Of course, I happen to know a gadjillion families that use my method, and they all have angelic kids...so I WIN!!! MWA HA HA!!!

Seriously, though, what I find fascinating is that you bring PARENTING into this. We aren't their fucking parents, we're their siblings. It is supremely arrogant to assume that we are Daddy or Mommy and should thus be charged with diciplining them. They may be acting like children, but that doesn't make them ours.you brought up the parenting thing by comparing the radicals to children throwing tantrums. I offered, showing them what to do with their freedom instead of using it to hurt others.Honey, my entire point is that they can't irritate you if you don't let them. They can TRY to irritate you all they want, and I will defend their right to be annoying. and my point is sweetheart, when they see they are not succeeding in annoying you, they will up the ante untill they annoy you. Kids give up when it's no fun anymore, adults see it as a challange.I know I'm "giving them room to maneuver." They SHOULD have that room. Everybody should have room to say or think nasty things, if that's what they choose to do. I've got zero problem with that, and I'm not likely to forget it any time soon.that's fine, but with that room they should know what their options are. some just may not know any other way besides rioting. If the next "act of hate" is another bloody cartoon then I will care just as little when that time rolls around. I pray the next round ends with nothing but a cartoon.I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we ought to act like grownups in this situation, but we are not their bloody parents. Hell, 9/10ths of their bitch with us is that we walk around like we're Big Fucking Papa, thinking we've got the right to take the kiddies out behind the woodshed if they act up.no, 9/10ths of their bitch is that we are heretics in their eyes. thus anything we do tends to be against their Religion.

i think its dumb, but its their right. in the an eye for an eye sense. although i dont agree with that philosphy, many people do.

i think that this whoe incedint shows how immature that whole world is becoming.
if we ignored these people they would stop.

You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

agreed. imagine how all of the "civilized, tolerant" American Christians would react if it has been about Jesus with a bomb, or something similar

It won't do anything to upset the west.
More likely it will upset the Israelis.

agreed. imagine how all of the "civilized, tolerant" American Christians would react if it has been about Jesus with a bomb, or something similar
American christians would not burn down embassies and seek to kill people over a dumb cartoon.

American christians are in fact, a hundred times more tolerant than their european and mideastern counterparts.

The Iranians are just trying desperately to offend us, so the best thing we could do is not rise to it. The west shouldn't dignify it with a response, we'd be giving them what they want.

http://www.tshirthell.com/muhammad.htm

ugh

you brought up the parenting thing by comparing the radicals to children throwing tantrums. I offered, showing them what to do with their freedom instead of using it to hurt others.

I brought up how one should act when one's KID BROTHER acts like a dickhead. You assumed the mantle of World Parent all by yourself.

and my point is sweetheart, when they see they are not succeeding in annoying you, they will up the ante untill they annoy you. Kids give up when it's no fun anymore, adults see it as a challange.

And, as I have stated, these rioting idjits are acting like kids. So we pretty much agree. When they are ready to act like adults, we deal with them like adults. Simple.

that's fine, but with that room they should know what their options are. some just may not know any other way besides rioting.

Come on. Give them some bloody credit, here. They're not morons. They know the options, and they picked the option that they wanted in this situation. Bad choice? Yep. Would telling them about other options have changed a damn thing? Hell no. Because that was never the problem.

This mess is about three things: poverty, visibility (or isolation, if you like), and opportunism. None of those things is going to get solved by talking down to Muslims like they don't know what's up.


I pray the next round ends with nothing but a cartoon.
You and me both, brotha.


no, 9/10ths of their bitch is that we are heretics in their eyes. thus anything we do tends to be against their Religion.
The fuck it is. Most Muslims don't give two shits about whether or not we follow their God. Most of the rioting Muslims don't give two shits about it, either. The only people who care are the Muslim James Dobsons, and they only care because it profits them to use religion to get the peons all hot and bothered. Religion is an excuse and a cover story for shit that would go down exactly the same way even if we all loved the same fictional Sky Daddy.

agreed. imagine how all of the "civilized, tolerant" American Christians would react if it has been about Jesus with a bomb, or something similarhmmmm... maybe a lawsuit or two... but that probably would be it.

I brought up how one should act when one's KID BROTHER acts like a dickhead. You assumed the mantle of World Parent all by yourself.read back, I didn't. you did. And, as I have stated, these rioting idjits are acting like kids. So we pretty much agree. When they are ready to act like adults, we deal with them like adults. Simple.true, but it might take a long time for them to grow up.

Come on. Give them some bloody credit, here. They're not morons. They know the options, and they picked the option that they wanted in this situation. Bad choice? Yep. Would telling them about other options have changed a damn thing? Hell no. Because that was never the problem.I HOPE they know the other options.

This mess is about three things: poverty, visibility (or isolation, if you like), and opportunism. None of those things is going to get solved by talking down to Muslims like they don't know what's up. if one of the problems is Isolation, then they might not know the options avaiable. but remember, most of these people (radicals I'm talking about) are fanatics about their beliefs. so in anger, they might not be thinking about options when they obviously should be.
The fuck it is. Most Muslims don't give two shits about whether or not we follow their God. Most of the rioting Muslims don't give two shits about it, either. The only people who care are the Muslim James Dobsons, and they only care because it profits them to use religion to get the peons all hot and bothered. Religion is an excuse and a cover story for shit that would go down exactly the same way even if we all loved the same fictional Sky Daddy.since this whole mess is because several non Islamic cartoonists broke one of their taboos by having pictures of Mohammad, I think they do care about everyone (even those who are not Islamic) following their creed. the fact that their next target is Jews, makes their whole fight a Religious one.

but don't get me wrong. I don't blame all religons, and if you do, perhaps a different thread for that discussion.

American christians are in fact, a hundred times more tolerant than their european and mideastern counterparts.

Excuse me..

AHAHAHA! Haha! Ahhh...

That was funny. American Christians more tolerant than European Christians? I'd love to see you back that up - Christian Fundamentalism, which is usually pretty intolerant of most things, does exist in Europe, but no way near as much as in America.

Yep.

I think it's all too easy for some people to anger muslims, to declare their religion barbaric, to invade their countries, and then point and see "Look! They're unhappy! This PROVES how inferior they are!"

Hog wash... Those cartoons bring to bare very prevalent realities in the culture of the middle east today, and its clear to me they were playing off of this. Those realities in fact are being played out right now (how fast some groups are to jump to voilence in the name of god). In addition to the fact that there have been several attempts by Imams before to infringe on Danish freedom of speech.

Like you said, its too easy to anger muslims.. just tell them they dont respect the rights of their women, and you will have death threats from some groups. So why go so far to attack the religions main figure.. if not to prove a more important point.

I just have to address the issue of american soldiers in the holocaust. Maybe it has been done, but what about those soldiers, and not just american, that were in concentration camps? The nazis did not focus on just the jews, rather, ANYBODY that was not christian or Aryan. But to the point - I think that the muslims should just take a breather and realize that religion is a waste of time anyway. I'm atheist by choice, and not a radical one, but I choose to look for answers to the questions that I have and they all lead to a lack of existence, in any possible way, of a god. Not to mention that the Qur'an, Bible, Mormon bible and any other "sacred" text that you can think of is just a fabrication of lies.

Hog wash... Those cartoons bring to bare very prevalent realities in the culture of the middle east today, and its clear to me they were playing off of this. Those realities in fact are being played out right now (how fast some groups are to jump to voilence in the name of god). In addition to the fact that there have been several attempts by Imams before to infringe on Danish freedom of speech.

Like you said, its too easy to anger muslims.. just tell them they dont respect the rights of their women, and you will have death threats from some groups. So why go so far to attack the religions main figure.. if not to prove a more important point.


It's too easy to anger *some* muslims. See, again with the generalizations. And I don't give a crap about the cartoons.

When Iran's president denies the Holocaust there is outrage and calls to invade the nation in the West... but attacking a religion's main figure is just being intellectually stimulating and if it angers people they're being too sensitive.

Eh? Since when does Soir speak for all of France or Die Welt for all of Germany?

Since Jyllands-Posten speaks for all of Denmark. It's not my reasoning. It is the reasoning of those who have started this "holocaust cartoon" contest - and those who are burning Danish flags.

American christians are in fact, a hundred times more tolerant than their european and mideastern counterparts.

Do you mean tolerant like Jerry "let's blow them away in the name of the lord" Falwell, or like Ann "we need to kill their leaders and convert them to christianity" Coulter? :P

(admittedly, I am generalizing from the few to the many, but their talkshows do have lots of avid viewers reflecting general opinion.)

Excuse me..

AHAHAHA! Haha! Ahhh...

That was funny. American Christians more tolerant than European Christians? I'd love to see you back that up - Christian Fundamentalism, which is usually pretty intolerant of most things, does exist in Europe, but no way near as much as in America.

actually, there is some grain of truth to that comment, you need look no farther then europes attidue toward Turkey (and its entrence into the EU) or their intolerance to the shifting migration of eastern europeans to the west. Look at Ireland where wars were fought, or France (in every way possible). Religious intolerance is ripe in Europe... and much of it comes from the various Christian groups, either to one another.. or to outsiders.

Do you mean tolerant like Jerry "let's blow them away in the name of the lord" Falwell, or like Ann "we need to kill their leaders and convert them to christianity" Coulter? :P

(admittedly, I am generalizing from the few to the many, but their talkshows do have lots of avid viewers reflecting general opinion.)

There's a big difference between blowhard talk and blowing things up and burning them down.

Let's play, shall we?

Let's try to find out how many terrorist acts of violence there were in the past five years, and let's look into the reasons behind each attack.

I'm willing to bet money that most of the terrorist acts were committed by people with a motive derived from militant Islam.

Not saying that all Muslims (or even most Muslims) are terrorists, but these days, most terrorists are Muslims.

While you're at it, show me a riot of several hundred thousand Christian fanatics burning down a few embassies because of some artwork ridiculing Christ.

http://www.tshirthell.com/muhammad.htm

ugh

That rocked!! :D

I might buy one of those shirts. The cartoon isn't even close to as bad as the shit these uncivilized people have been drawing for decades.

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm

These cartoons they are doing are nothing new. Tens of thousands of these cartoons from the Muslim world exist, but when twelve cartoons come out depicting Mohammed they go all psycho. Thank you Muslims. It is now so much easier for me to justify the War on Terrorism and not feel sorry for you.

Thank you Muslims.

So it isn't ok to broadbrush all Jews, but it's ok to broadbrush all Muslims?

Wow ... you're cool. I bet you and Menachem Begin would have gotten along great.

There's a big difference between blowhard talk and blowing things up and burning them down.

Yet you're one of the first people to decry Iran for saying "Death to America!" even though Iran has never physically attacked America.

Everybody sing:

Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy
It's so fun for you and me
Take an idea and turn it 'round
To treat the other like a clown

... and so on

Vegetarianistica']GOOD. fair is fair. it's about time.

Weren't a bunch of people killed and a few embasseys burned? Yeah that's equivelence if I've ever heard it.


Fair is fair. Time for the Dutch to kill some people and burn down some buildings.

It's about time the world matured past theological justice.

Yet you're one of the first people to decry Iran for saying "Death to America!" even though Iran has never physically attacked America.

No, they can yell that all they like. As I have posted before.

Just watch out if you take US hostages - or attack an embassy.

Technically, an act of war. So technically, they have attacked American soil before.

Just watch out if you take US hostages - or attack an embassy.

Technically, an act of war. So technically, they have attacked American soil before.

Nearly 30 years ago and during an act of open rebellion. Bygones.

Or did you think we should retroactively attack everyone that's slighted us because, well, we have yet to pay Canada back for burning the White House to the ground in 1814.

Anyone watch Colbert Report last night?

It's good to know the Muslim world can find humor in words that start with "g"! Like guacamole....and genocide.

All I have to say to the M-world is:
YOU GOT PUNK'D

Anyone watch Colbert Report last night?

It's good to know the Muslim world can find humor in words that start with "g"! Like guacamole....and genocide.

All I have to say to the M-world is:
YOU GOT PUNK'D

That was hilarious, and his cartoons against the Danes were brilliant. :D

Pssh. Let them publish holocaust cartoons. If we ignore them, it shows them to be reactionary babies with an inferior culture. Of course, knowing the moron Christian and Jewish radicals in western nations, we probably won't get that moral victory.

And for those of you comparing this to making offensive pictures of Jesus, like putting him upside down on the cross with a dog licking at his privates or something... well, I've worn some pretty religiously offensive stuff around some very conservative Christians, and all I got was disapproving looks. No one put out a fatwa calling for my death.

Anyone watch Colbert Report last night?

It's good to know the Muslim world can find humor in words that start with "g"! Like guacamole....and genocide.

All I have to say to the M-world is:
YOU GOT PUNK'D
Yes, the Colbert Report coverage of this has been hilarious, especially those cartoons against the Danish.

You dont understand the islamic faith, drawing Mohammed(peace and blessings be upon him) is like drawing Jesus up side down on the cross or showing him doing something offensive. Its not really taking it to the extreme, afterall they are just cartoons of the holocuast right? Oh, and if you get offended by them its most likely what millions of muslims are feeling.

J.C. and Mohammed both died a really long time ago. I am a follower of neither and truely can not understand this whole uproar at all. Religion is about peace how does destorying the buildings of another nation bring about peace? Please explain.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

"A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad"
Yes Iranians, draw what you want. Here's a son of the West who won't deny your right to do so. I'll ridicule you for it, but will support your right to say it.

Incidentally, why go after the Jews? Why not go after the Danes?

So it isn't ok to broadbrush all Jews, but it's ok to broadbrush all Muslims?

Actually, both things are "ok" . Stupid - yes. Shortsighted - yes. Impolite - yes. But not wrong.

However, demanding an apology for these specific offensive cartoons, when one has never protested against others which are far more offensive - just aimed at another population group, or even made quite a few offensive ones oneself is hypocritical.

As if inteligent nations would riot over a cartoon.

1. You assume that the insult to Chritiainity was equal to that of the insult to Islam. I don't believe you can judge that.

2. Never a protest that got out of hand. Can you prove that, skippy?

3. Your point is little more than Christians are better than Muslims. That is schoolyard. The truth of the matter is that vast populations of muslims live in oppressive states and poverty. Those states manipulate news like this to distract the populace from its real problems. And we keep playing the Dope to the Islamic states Rope-a-Dope.
There is absolutely nothing sacred about organized man made religions what ever you call them.
Islam is just as much fair game as is the so-called Christianity of the Europeans and Americans, the majority of which we know to be false christianity. And we know that cause we can tell them by their fruits.

There is absolutely nothing sacred about organized man made religions .There is absolutely nothing sacred about the Holocaust and... There is absolutely nothing sacred about man made "historic" versions of the Hollywcast.

If Jesus and their Prophet are not Sacred... then the Hollywood-Cast is even less...

Yep.

I think it's all too easy for some people to anger muslims, to declare their religion barbaric, to invade their countries, and then point and see "Look! They're unhappy! This PROVES how inferior they are!"
the fact is that all manmade religions are false religions.

Excuse me..

AHAHAHA! Haha! Ahhh...

That was funny. American Christians more tolerant than European Christians? I'd love to see you back that up - Christian Fundamentalism, which is usually pretty intolerant of most things, does exist in Europe, but no way near as much as in America.
That was meant as sarcasm but since you brought it up.

Unlike Euro fundies, American fundies have never gone out and killed people in order to force them to convert. Americans have never held an inquisition. Americans have never sponsored pogroms against Jews.

We have people who, using their right to free speech, have attacked other religions and groups. But we do not have people who preach violence from the pulpit.

Do you mean tolerant like Jerry "let's blow them away in the name of the lord" Falwell, or like Ann "we need to kill their leaders and convert them to christianity" Coulter? :P

(admittedly, I am generalizing from the few to the many, but their talkshows do have lots of avid viewers reflecting general opinion.)

Jerry Falwell, as I've stated in other threads on religion, is a false teacher.
With the other false teacher's his end fate is hellfire.

But it is a falsehood to say that Jerry's veiws echoe those of all those who have true religion.

What the world and mankind don't understand is that this is not about God versus God, or Jesus versus Mohammed. This only man against man. False religions against false religions.

In one of his many great speeches Jesus spoke and asked the question of his listeners, "From where do wars come from?" Then he proceeded to answer his own question: "From out of the hearts of men do wars come. From your own hatreds and passions." "You have taken for vain the word of God and instead teach the doctrines of men, claiming them to have come from God."

There is absolutely nothing sacred about the Holocaust and... There is absolutely nothing sacred about man made "historic" versions of the Hollywcast.

If Jesus and their Prophet are not Sacred... then the Hollywood-Cast is even less...
No the holocaust is not sacred. If history is written by the victor, and we know that in the past, victors' accounts have been biased, then so called historic versions can not be said to be sacred.

And, um, the last place I would turn for either religion or history would be hollywood.

While I will no doubt be deeply offended by whatever cartoons are punished, I will not go out and throw firebombs at the Iranian Embassy. Mainly because the nearest Iranian embassy is in Mexico City, but also because they have the right of Freedom of the Press.

However, the Iranians are aiming at the wrong targets. Perhaps cartoons depicting savage Vikings bearing the Danish flag desecrating a mosque would be a better one. You know, piss off the Danes.

the fact is that all manmade religions are false religions.

No, manmade religions are really religions. That's why they're called "religions." And can you name a non man-made religion? No.