NationStates Jolt Archive

Sheboygan Wisconsin's Urban middle school has an indoor shooting range!

http://www.sheboygan-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060207/SHE0101/602070419/1062

One of my relatives remembers bringing a gun to school on the first day of deer season back in the 50s. No-one thought anything of it. It was fairly common.

Now they have doe-day though, so it's not such an issue I suppose.

Sheboygan Wisconsin's Urban middle school has an indoor shooting range!

http://www.sheboygan-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060207/SHE0101/602070419/1062


And how many Columbine's have happened here?

My guess would be zero.

God I wish I had gone there.

And how many Columbine's have happened here?

My guess would be zero.

God I wish I had gone there.
If some asshole did try to shoot the students there's a good chance that one of the recreational shooters would be able to return fire and take him out before too many people get hurt.

a similar bill was almost passed in Arizona last year, but thankfully we had enough Democrats and sane Republicans to stop the bill.

a similar bill was almost passed in Arizona last year, but thankfully we had enough Democrats and sane Republicans to stop the bill.

You make it sound like teaching young people proper safety and use of guns is a bad thing...:rolleyes:

You make it sound like teaching young people proper safety and use of guns is a bad thing...:rolleyes:

Indeed. A secondary goal of our educational system should be teaching our children how to be effective and efficient murderers.

Sheboygan Wisconsin's Urban middle school has an indoor shooting range!

ah, sheboygan - so close to being an actual city, yet so wisconsin

You make it sound like teaching young people proper safety and use of guns is a bad thing...:rolleyes:
who said anything about teaching kids proper gun safety and use?

Indeed. A secondary goal of our educational system should be teaching our children how to be effective and efficient murderers.

i thought that came in the lower teir of the higher education system

Indeed. A secondary goal of our educational system should be teaching our children how to be effective and efficient murderers.
Perhaps if we taught them to be a bit more mature and knowledgable about weaponary, they wouldn't be as likely to accidentally shoot themselves when they get a hold of their Dad's gun?
Of course, if the general public were actually knowladgable about guns, they wouldn't exemplify the phobias and prejudices that allow law makers to further strip people of their freedom, so I suppose that the "sane" politcians wouldn't want that.

You make it sound like teaching young people proper safety and use of guns is a bad thing...:rolleyes:

It's the parents responsibility to go over fire arm safety with their children, not the governments. Maybe 1 in 3 kids that go to school have ever seen a gun, so guess what? You're wasting the 2 in 3 kids time with another bullshit class like Sex Ed.

The college I went to had a range beneath the criminal justice building. Most people werent even aware it was there.
There probably would have been all kinds of hysteria if they were aware of it.

If some asshole did try to shoot the students there's a good chance that one of the recreational shooters would be able to return fire and take him out before too many people get hurt.
Or, a whole bunch of students pull out their weapons, and dozens of people would get killed or wounded

plus, theres always the chance that some student misreads a situation, and opens fire to try to protect himself and maybe others

Or, a whole bunch of students pull out their weapons, and dozens of people would get killed or wounded

plus, theres always the chance that some student misreads a situation, and opens fire to try to protect himself and maybe others
What makes you think dozens of people would start shooting randomly? Oh yeah. Hoplophobes assume that anyone with a gun will simply spray lead in random directions.

If some asshole did try to shoot the students there's a good chance that one of the recreational shooters would be able to return fire and take him out before too many people get hurt.

Odds are the crossfire would injure more people the moment a situation broke out.

Odds are the crossfire would injure more people the moment a situation broke out.
Are you kidding me? In a columbine type situation the trench coat assholes were able to kill people at will for a long time. If someone had returned fire the incident could have been cut short in a couple of minutes and drastically reduced the body count.

Are you kidding me? In a columbine type situation the trench coat assholes were able to kill people at will for a long time. If someone had returned fire the incident could have been cut short in a couple of minutes and drastically reduced the body count.

The incident first broke out in the cafeteria where the two stayed for a good amount of time. There were hundreds of kids hiding under those tables, this is when the armed brigade from the shooting range comes in and forces the other two to return fire. Assuming everyone at the shooting range at that very moment is a marksman, yes the situation is over quickly. On the other hand you have an extended gun fight in a populated area that could easily wound and kill more than 13 people given how crowded they were beneath the tables.

It could go either way but I trust firearms to the guards and cops. Both of whom where always present at my school. Compared to a group of recreational shooters wanting to be rambo.

The incident first broke out in the cafeteria where the two stayed for a good amount of time. There were hundreds of kids hiding under those tables, this is when the armed brigade from the shooting range comes in and forces the other two to return fire. Assuming everyone at the shooting range at that very moment is a marksman, yes the situation is over quickly. On the other hand you have an extended gun fight in a populated area that could easily wound and kill more than 13 people given how crowded they were beneath the tables.

It could go either way but I trust firearms to the guards and cops. Both of whom where always present at my school. Compared to a group of recreational shooters wanting to be rambo.
Did you know that cops are statistically less accurate than ordinary gun owners?

It could go either way but I trust firearms to the guards and cops. Both of whom where always present at my school. Compared to a group of recreational shooters wanting to be rambo.


And what kind of "training" did the guards have? Talk to some security guards sometime. They're a joke.

The police have official training once or twice a year. Anything else is on their own time.

Your average recreational shooter practices much more often.

Odds are the crossfire would injure more people the moment a situation broke out.

No, "odds are" the recreational shooters would have taken them down w/ one or two rounds each.

So... it's NOT students bringing in the guns...

WTF is wrong with you people. Bringing guns to school??? Christ you really are asking for it arnt you. It dosent matter if you think that the rec shooters will take out the people having a shoot out, the F****** problem is that it is a school and there is a time and a place for a shooting range. Again its a F&&****** school, what the hell is wrong with you Americans?????
Why are you all a bunch of gun nuts????????

And what kind of "training" did the guards have? Talk to some security guards sometime. They're a joke.

The police have official training once or twice a year. Anything else is on their own time.

Your average recreational shooter practices much more often.

My grandfather was a cop and practiced as often as he could and he's a damn good shot too. However, that was his own time and I understand your point.

We're talking about a school here, most of the kids haven't been firing a gun for as long as older recreational shooters have.

I just don't trust kids my age in a public area with a loaded weapon.

WTF is wrong with you people. Bringing guns to school??? Christ you really are asking for it arnt you. It dosent matter if you think that the rec shooters will take out the people having a shoot out, the F****** problem is that it is a school and there is a time and a place for a shooting range. Again its a F&&****** school, what the hell is wrong with you Americans?????
Why are you all a bunch of gun nuts????????

Nice post. Rant much?

Ok, so who ACTUALLY read the article? :rolleyes:

My grandfather was a cop and practiced as often as he could and he's a damn good shot too. However, that was his own time and I understand your point.

We're talking about a school here, most of the kids haven't been firing a gun for as long as older recreational shooters have.

I just don't trust kids my age in a public area with a loaded weapon.

And they're not talking about kids walking around the school w/ loaded weapons or mandatory firearms classes.

They're talking about a privately run range that's located in a public school.

Nice post. Rant much?


I think you can agree with the point im making

WTF is wrong with you people. Bringing guns to school??? Christ you really are asking for it arnt you. It dosent matter if you think that the rec shooters will take out the people having a shoot out, the F****** problem is that it is a school and there is a time and a place for a shooting range. Again its a F&&****** school, what the hell is wrong with you Americans?????
Why are you all a bunch of gun nuts????????

Aussie gun control explained. I wouldn't want you with a butter knife you unhinged fucknut.

Get your shit together or shut the hell up.

Wow...that's fucking AWSOME! I wish my school was like that!

WTF is wrong with you people. Bringing guns to school??? Christ you really are asking for it arnt you. It dosent matter if you think that the rec shooters will take out the people having a shoot out, the F****** problem is that it is a school and there is a time and a place for a shooting range. Again its a F&&****** school, what the hell is wrong with you Americans?????
Why are you all a bunch of gun nuts????????
Because shooting helps one relax, which is why our posts don't look like yours.

I think you can agree with the point im making

No, not really. An insulting post filled w/ blanked out swears doesn't ring true to me.

What makes you think dozens of people would start shooting randomly? Oh yeah. Hoplophobes assume that anyone with a gun will simply spray lead in random directions.

whats a hoplophobe?

i mean that gunfire could cause a panic, i mean, giving kids guns(i know some are hunters and/or are mature enough to hadle them, but i wouldent give a 15 year old a gun, even if he has fired a couple rounds in a range).

And they're not talking about kids walking around the school w/ loaded weapons or mandatory firearms classes.

They're talking about a privately run range that's located in a public school.

How do the guns get to the firing range though?

The only way I could accept this is if there were regulations out the ass. Keeping the gun unloaded at all times until in the designated area, harsh punishments for people who fool around, etc.

For those of you who didn't read it:
The article is about a shooting range that exists inside a school and the shooting range is owned by a gun club and it is only in use when school isn't in session - ie: when the school is student-free for the evening/weekend/PD-Day/whatever.

Aussie gun control explained. I wouldn't want you with a butter knife you unhinged fucknut.

Get your shit together or shut the hell up.

Your a stupid Arrogant American Fucknut.
You an all your fucknut mates, bring you guns with you for fucking everything. Why dont you go have a few drinks and drive home you red neck fuckhead. Thats why you country is so fucked up.

Perhaps if we taught them to be a bit more mature and knowledgable about weaponary, they wouldn't be as likely to accidentally shoot themselves when they get a hold of their Dad's gun?
Of course, if the general public were actually knowladgable about guns, they wouldn't exemplify the phobias and prejudices that allow law makers to further strip people of their freedom, so I suppose that the "sane" politcians wouldn't want that.

Being knowledgeable about proper use and gun safety would not stop a couple of screwed up kids from "accidentally" going to their school with loaded weapons and shooting people.

Regarding the shooting range in the Wisconsin school, are the students able to bring their own gun to school to use at the range or is it highly regulated to the point that there are only a few guns within the range, that never leave it, for the purpose of practice shooting?

Ok, so who ACTUALLY read the article? :rolleyes:
the guy who wrote it, his(is it even a guy?) mother, and that about it

i just saw the purty pictures

For those of you who didn't read it:
The article is about a shooting range that exists inside a school and the shooting range is owned by a gun club and it is only in use when school isn't in session - ie: when the school is student-free for the evening/weekend/PD-Day/whatever.

There were a bunch of people that brought up the hypothetical question "What if columbine had a gun range open during school hours." and the arguement sprouted from there.

ah, sheboygan - so close to being an actual city, yet so wisconsin
heh heh heh...I love the water park in that hotel on the lakeshore there...My grandparents live 20-30mins. away in Two Rivers...know it by any chance?

For those of you who didn't read it:
The article is about a shooting range that exists inside a school and the shooting range is owned by a gun club and it is only in use when school isn't in session - ie: when the school is student-free for the evening/weekend/PD-Day/whatever.
Well that explains everything. In my eyes, what you just described is perfectly fine.

Your a stupid Arrogant American Fucknut.
You an all your fucknut mates, bring you guns with you for fucking everything. Why dont you go have a few drinks and drive home you red neck fuckhead. Thats why you country is so fucked up.

Wrong, I am a calm, intelligent, self-disciplined, American asshole living in the heart of the United States of Canada. I own several firearms and I shoot them regularly. My favorite beverage is rum, I keep it, cars, and firearms as completely separate as humanly possible. I also feel a little comfort in the state of my country knowing you aren't a part of it.

Now please, I'm sure there is a sheep somewhere who is feeling deprived of your company. Off with you now.

There were a bunch of people that brought up the hypothetical question "What if columbine had a gun range open during school hours." and the arguement sprouted from there.
However, it fail to see what Columbine having a shooting range would have to do with anything because it would've likely been used outside of school hours just like the Wisconsin one.

Well that explains everything. In my eyes, what you just described is perfectly fine.
:p Glad I could be of help.

Oh yeah, this is sort of the norm in Switzerland...

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=347

Guess what? No school shootings. :rolleyes:

Your a stupid Arrogant American Fucknut.
You an all your fucknut mates, bring you guns with you for fucking everything. Why dont you go have a few drinks and drive home you red neck fuckhead. Thats why you country is so fucked up.

How wonderful. And everybody decries the poor quality of education in the US.

Oh yeah, this is sort of the norm in Switzerland...

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=347

Guess what? No school shootings. :rolleyes:
Well, Switzerland is as militarised as Israel,(maybe even more) of course everyone has a gun, but they're are trained to use them. Males must be part of the militia and have a gun at home if they want to be able to vote. Im sure the Swiss have a heavy screening processes whereby they prevent phycopaths from having guns.

Well, Switzerland is as militarised as Israel,(maybe even more) of course everyone has a gun, but they're are trained to use them. Males must be part of the militia and have a gun at home if they want to be able to vote. Im sure the Swiss have a heavy screening processes whereby they prevent phycopaths from having guns.

I think the point is is that recreational shooting isn't demonized like it is in other places w/ the Gov't not only encouraging, but subsidizing, youth and adult training and competitions.

Well, Switzerland is as militarised as Israel,(maybe even more) of course everyone has a gun, but they're are trained to use them. Males must be part of the militia and have a gun at home if they want to be able to vote. Im sure the Swiss have a heavy screening processes whereby they prevent phycopaths from having guns.

There are shooting ranges in schools. Kids as young as 12 are around them on a regular basis and most 16 year olds shoot on a regular basis. They are literally everywhere in the country. There has not been a single school massacre in their entire history.

heh heh heh...I love the water park in that hotel on the lakeshore there...My grandparents live 20-30mins. away in Two Rivers...know it by any chance?

what's great about that place is that they haven't quite gotten rid of all the bombed out industrial shit down there yet. so there is the multi million dollar resort, and some really expensive condos, and some abandoned warehouses and factories.

i know of two rivers, but i've never spent any time up there. i'm actually a chicago boy lured to wisconsin by its beautiful women. well, beautiful woman anyways.

what's great about that place is that they haven't quite gotten rid of all the bombed out industrial shit down there yet. so there is the multi million dollar resort, and some really expensive condos, and some abandoned warehouses and factories.

i know of two rivers, but i've never spent any time up there. i'm actually a chicago boy lured to wisconsin by its beautiful women. well, beautiful woman anyways.

Leaving Chicago for any reason is ussually a good trade off.

what's great about that place is that they haven't quite gotten rid of all the bombed out industrial shit down there yet. so there is the multi million dollar resort, and some really expensive condos, and some abandoned warehouses and factories.

i know of two rivers, but i've never spent any time up there. i'm actually a chicago boy lured to wisconsin by its beautiful women. well, beautiful woman anyways.

given that you now live in Sheboygan, at least you're not a FIB anymore. hehe

I grew up in Minocqua.

However, it fail to see what Columbine having a shooting range would have to do with anything because it would've likely been used outside of school hours just like the Wisconsin one.

It's all hypothetical. A gun range open during school hours would just be funny. "Now we'll *pop* *pop* learn about *pop* Mar-*pop*-x"

It's all hypothetical. A gun range open during school hours would just be funny. "Now we'll *pop* *pop* learn about *pop* Mar-*pop*-x"

No different than going to school in LA, Chicago, or DC. :)

No different than going to school in LA, Chicago, or DC. :)

They have schools there? I thought they were all overrun years ago.

It's all hypothetical. A gun range open during school hours would just be funny. "Now we'll *pop* *pop* learn about *pop* Mar-*pop*-x"
The college that I did my undergraduate work at had a range. Available whenever the ROTC building was open. We never had a problem with it.

It's all hypothetical. A gun range open during school hours would just be funny. "Now we'll *pop* *pop* learn about *pop* Mar-*pop*-x"
im sure they soundproof

It's all hypothetical. A gun range open during school hours would just be funny. "Now we'll *pop* *pop* learn about *pop* Mar-*pop*-x"
My english teacher once taught PE. at the beginning of the year, she told her students that final exam would be that half of the class would shoot the rifles while the other half dodged.

those that hit a dodger, would pass. Those dodging without being hit would also pass. the rest would fail.


they thought she was joking... untill the second to last day, she told them that they would meet on the schools shooting range.

they were sweating bullets as she walked up slightly late... they were on the verge of fainting when she opened up the storage room where the rifles were secured and calmly passed out their report cards with a s#!t eating grin on her face.

My high school had a disused rifle range under one of the corridors on the main floor, in the basement between the two gymnasiums. It was used for storing props from the drama department while I was there, though.

Place'd been built in 1952. Hadn't been used since '72. Became a storage locker in '82. I'd even forgotten about it before reading the article in the OP.

Originally Posted by Harric
WTF is wrong with you people. Bringing guns to school??? Christ you really are asking for it arnt you. It dosent matter if you think that the rec shooters will take out the people having a shoot out, the F****** problem is that it is a school and there is a time and a place for a shooting range. Again its a F&&****** school, what the hell is wrong with you Americans?????
Why are you all a bunch of gun nuts????????

because it is part of our countries culture!

i have owned guns for 30 odd years now....and somehow i have managed to never fire a shot in anger..ever!

i have used a shotgun in self defence..but did not have to fire(thank heaven)

i also have friends with every kind of gun imaginable,and none of them ever shot at anyone either.

to the point of the post.

without dating myself..lol..we use to bring our shotguns to school with us when we were 14,and after school(we had to cut thru the woods to get and from school)we would do some tin can blasting,i never liked hunting much,but my friends did.

14 being the magic number for unsupervised(hunting permits) in n.j. at the time.

no body i ever knew or know...ever shot anyone.(brandished a weapon for self defence reasons on an occasion or 2...but shot anyone...nope)

so maybe you should educate yourself about firearms...rather then insulting a whole country!
and i might add..calling anyone who owns a gun a redneck/crazy/gun nut?

that was so patently biased,it would be akin to me calling all aussies' drunken crimminals cause australia was originally a penal colony of englands.
and we all know you sots drink fosters for breakfast..thats why you guys cant be trusted with guns...let alone an arsenal of swords i believe the headlines screamed!

here's my arsenal:
bulgarian sa-93 in 7.62 x 39

remington 710 in .270 winchester with a 6x24x50 illuminated scope

mossberg m-500 12 gauge with a 18.5 barrel and pistol grip,wood buttstock with 24" rifled slug barrel with fiber optic sights,24" smoothbore with rifle sights,28" field barrel

marlin m-60 in .22 caliber with a 3x9x40 scope

charter arms m-85 in .38 caliber 2"barrel

colt combat commander in .45acp

marlin lever action guide gun in 45-70

taurus pt-92 in 9mm

and soon to be aquired..taurus .454 casull with a ported 5 inch barrel


never shot anything more living then a cinder block with them,but if needed..they are there.

but i guess most cant be trusted with lethal objects(except cars,axes,gesoline...etc)

i guess me and the millions of honest gun owners in the u.s. are an aberration?
in that we have never used a firearm in a crime or shot anyone...ever

i can only surmise you aussies are totally around the bend and cant be trusted to not go on murderous rampages because you happen to have a piece of metal and wood.
which is what it is..boiled down.

i could fabricate a gun in about 20 minutes,from raw materials laying about my garage.but for some crazy redneck reason..i follow the laws of my land,and still manage not to kill people..even though i have the above noted evil objects next to me whispering...go kill people..we will help you..

if an inanimate objects cause crime and violence...time to ban everything...video games first and foremost..closely followed by rap music.

rant off

p.s.you may want to take your own advice and have a few drinks and a few deep breaths.

personally,i think you are afraid of something you dont understand,and look to your government to protect you,something we in the states loath..gov interference and being afraid of objects.

sarcasm aside...educate yourself about firearms if you are so obviously afraid/hate..whatever guns.

you may come to realise they are nothing more then objects,that with proper handling(like any lethal object)is no more dangerous then any other object.

sure would beat you insulting me and my countrymen/women over something your are so obviously ignorant of.:rolleyes:

maybe it is a cultural thing..americans have always(due to the vast open spaces)learned early on..that the state cant protect everyone everywhere,and you are in charge of your own safe being,thats why kids learned safe gun handling since the beginning of our country.
dad was out doing dad stuff,mom and sister was doing there thing..junior was responsible for protecting his family if dad was gone.

so it is probably an instinct for boys or men here to NOT rely on the gov to protect them...now fast forward to today..we have ms-13 running about,not to mention all the other drug gangs and junkies,who dont legaly buy guns or obey laws,and the cops are busy writing tickets to keep their jobs,or just cant be everywhere all the time...so yes..we own guns to protect ourselves,for when the overwhelmed cops aint around.

cultural...probably..but a reality we deal with.

i taught my son to shoot..safely..all my guns when he was 10,he knows they aint toys,he is not curious because i removed the mystery of them,but if i am not home and something bad happens..he is not totally helpless,nor is my daughter for that matter.

Duh, if you can't bring guns to school how are you going to protect yourselves from the people in school with guns. If you don't bring a gun, you might get your lunch money stolen, but if you do bring one, you can shoot the guy in self-defense and go have lunch.

Duh, if you can't bring guns to school how are you going to protect yourselves from the people in school with guns. If you don't bring a gun, you might get your lunch money stolen, but if you do bring one, you can shoot the guy in self-defense and go have lunch.
But you have to be sure and bring enough ammo. Three or four clips ought to do it, eh?

But you have to be sure and bring enough ammo. Three or four clips ought to do it, eh?

3 or 4 clips?
are you joking...

i have over 5000 rounds for the ak and over 500 rounds for all my others,the .22 i cant count..lol

i never go to school without at least...10 clips...thats 300 rounds,and i still feel nekid with that combat load.

just playin with ya

for some reason,parents dont teach there kids personall responsibiity it seems,at least not according to the hand wringers,so no guns at school is fine with me.

i will teach mine accordingly,and i was kidding,i have been out of school for 20 years.

Perhaps if we taught them to be a bit more mature and knowledgable about weaponary, they wouldn't be as likely to accidentally shoot themselves when they get a hold of their Dad's gun?
Of course, if the general public were actually knowladgable about guns, they wouldn't exemplify the phobias and prejudices that allow law makers to further strip people of their freedom, so I suppose that the "sane" politcians wouldn't want that.

You nailed it!

The phobias I see from others in other countries and in the US are just rediculious. I guess it's only natural sence they have never handled a gun and only see guns in movies or demonized on the evening news. Unfortunantly, these people are lead to beleave what is told to them without fully understanding and knowing the facts. The powers that be know this and exploit it for thier gain thus further taking the freedoms of people. Bottom line people is that making a law against something that is already illegal is just a front to take away freedoms. Sadly, people don't look past the peice at the big picture.

for some reason,parents dont teach there kids personall responsibiity it seems,at least not according to the hand wringers,so no guns at school is fine with me.

i will teach mine accordingly,and i was kidding,i have been out of school for 20 years.

How dare you suggest parents teach personal responsibility. By accepting responsibility for their actions, that means children might actually be told they did somehting wrong and thier self-esteem will be hurt.

It's much better for their well being to blame any problems on others and inanimate objects.

what's great about that place is that they haven't quite gotten rid of all the bombed out industrial shit down there yet. so there is the multi million dollar resort, and some really expensive condos, and some abandoned warehouses and factories.

i know of two rivers, but i've never spent any time up there. i'm actually a chicago boy lured to wisconsin by its beautiful women. well, beautiful woman anyways.

And the cheese.


(Michigan's stilll better though :P)

The ROTC program at my school has a Rifle Guard. The suckers were marching around with their rifles today as I came in from track.

3 or 4 clips?
are you joking...

i have over 5000 rounds for the ak and over 500 rounds for all my others,the .22 i cant count..lol

i never go to school without at least...10 clips...thats 300 rounds,and i still feel nekid with that combat load.

just playin with ya

for some reason,parents dont teach there kids personall responsibiity it seems,at least not according to the hand wringers,so no guns at school is fine with me.

i will teach mine accordingly,and i was kidding,i have been out of school for 20 years.
We had a little discussion a while back where the Pants Man thought that it was excessive to carry more than one bullet. Makes me think he grew up in Mayberry.

3 or 4 clips?
are you joking...

i have over 5000 rounds for the ak and over 500 rounds for all my others,the .22 i cant count..lol

i never go to school without at least...10 clips...thats 300 rounds,and i still feel nekid with that combat load.

just playin with ya

for some reason,parents dont teach there kids personall responsibiity it seems,at least not according to the hand wringers,so no guns at school is fine with me.

i will teach mine accordingly,and i was kidding,i have been out of school for 20 years.


Uh, guys...unless you're using an M1 (or something equally as ancient), you're not using clips. Mags, guys...mags. :D

:eek: <ducks incoming fire>

You know, I should point out that it was one of Sheboygan's Assembly reps that flip-flopped his vote on concealed carry a few days ago. So, they're not as pro gun as people might think. Hopefully, the citizens of the great brat-city will vote him out.

I know how to handle a gun, I've had some training, before the British government banned them. But I'm very nervous about my jittery next door neighbour owning one.

And the chap over the road who once used a baseball bat on a police car, he shouldn't have one either.

In fact, I should be the only person allowed to carry arms because, frankly, I couldn't trust anyone else.

Did you know that cops are statistically less accurate than ordinary gun owners?
Is that at targets or in a combat situation or what? Are we comparing like with like here? Just wondering... In Ireland, the cops who are armed train with their guns a lot - they have special gun units who are pretty much the only guys armed, apart from the odd plainclothes.

What's the big deal here? Lots of colleges in IRELAND have shooting ranges. I'm a member of one in Trinity - OK, they only use .22 and air rifles (which as far as I know is the extent of legal guns here, bar shotguns), but still, it's in the middle of Dublin, and Dublin is not a big place for the guns.
Sounds like a good idea, actually. I don't know if they still do it there, but it seems that they used to have gun safety style classes. Sounds like a fun idea. Kids will get to fire guns (which early everyone will find fun) and they'll be taught gun safety, which is a damn important thing, and something not a lot of people know much about. (Especially in Ireland. A few months back, there was a front page photo of our Minister for Defence pointing a handgun right at a photographer. And about twenty miles from my home, a girl was shot by an accidental discharge froma shotgun on Christmas Day.)
I'd have absolutely no problem with this, as long as kids were properly supervised and not too young - it's one thing to trust a 15 year old, another to give a preteen a rifle...
@Luporum: The whole thing of having crazy heavy punishments and controls is sort of mandatory for ranges over here, although gun ownership is nowhere near as common, which might have something to do with it.

Is that at targets or in a combat situation or what? Are we comparing like with like here? Just wondering... In Ireland, the cops who are armed train with their guns a lot - they have special gun units who are pretty much the only guys armed, apart from the odd plainclothes.

What's the big deal here? Lots of colleges in IRELAND have shooting ranges. I'm a member of one in Trinity - OK, they only use .22 and air rifles (which as far as I know is the extent of legal guns here, bar shotguns), but still, it's in the middle of Dublin, and Dublin is not a big place for the guns.
Sounds like a good idea, actually. I don't know if they still do it there, but it seems that they used to have gun safety style classes. Sounds like a fun idea. Kids will get to fire guns (which early everyone will find fun) and they'll be taught gun safety, which is a damn important thing, and something not a lot of people know much about. (Especially in Ireland. A few months back, there was a front page photo of our Minister for Defence pointing a handgun right at a photographer. And about twenty miles from my home, a girl was shot by an accidental discharge froma shotgun on Christmas Day.)
I'd have absolutely no problem with this, as long as kids were properly supervised and not too young - it's one thing to trust a 15 year old, another to give a preteen a rifle...
@Luporum: The whole thing of having crazy heavy punishments and controls is sort of mandatory for ranges over here, although gun ownership is nowhere near as common, which might have something to do with it.


Combat situations. Here's the rough breakdown for statistics for police, civilian, and criminal shootings over the years:

Police miss more often per shot than felons, who miss more often per shot than non-felon civilians.

This is because the typical policeman or policewoman spends their time at work - patrolling, etc. They take little time to practice, and the typical policeman fires 45 to 50 rounds per YEAR.

Felons, because they shoot at each other with some frequency, tend to hit more often per shot.

Law abiding civilians fire and practice MUCH more often. I practice to the tune of over 20,000 rounds of pistol ammunition, and nearly that much rifle ammunition, per year. I give instruction to local police - and there isn't one I can't outshoot with a pistol or rifle - especially with a rifle.

And I do not shoot for a living. If you find a policeman who has shooting as a hobby, they will be markedly better than the other police - but since most of their occupation does NOT involve gunning people down every day, they usually spend their free educational time learning other things.

Most police shootings take place at a range of less than 15 feet (half at less than 8 feet), and yet the amount that police miss has gone up - from about 1 hit in 2 shots, to 1 hit in 6 shots.

It always surprises me to see how absolutely hysterical some people get about these things.

One guy mentioned ROTC at his university having a Rifle Club. Mine has one too, which I'm a member of, and no one looks twice when we're moving the weapons to the range and back. In civilian clothes. Also, I was carrying an M249 (a small belt fed machinegun) to the ROTC classroom (again, in civilian clothes) and I passed several groups of students who didn't even bat an eye. We shoot during school hours, too. Different cultures, I guess.

Now I'll just wait for someone to call me an ignorant redneck for not being terrified of firearms.

The only way I could accept this is if there were regulations out the ass. Keeping the gun unloaded at all times until in the designated area, harsh punishments for people who fool around, etc.

That's exactly how every range I've ever been on has operated. In fact, that's how I was raised around guns. Anything else would be unthinkable.


(Michigan's stilll better though :P)

Damn right :D

Uh, guys...unless you're using an M1 (or something equally as ancient), you're not using clips. Mags, guys...mags. :D

:eek: <ducks incoming fire>

no fire from here...your correct..i have been scolded numerous times for my incorrect terminology...my bad

i only have a bout 25 clips...er mags so i stand corrected.

I'll never get it. Never ever. :confused:

(Michigan's stilll better though :P)

bah, michigan. you people lost a war against ohio.

Hmm, I personally own a 12 gauge shotgun, about 200 12 gauge shells,
twin Jagers, an assault rifle, and a customed sniper rifle. I have plenty of ammo for all my weapons, and if necessary, i can fortify my house so well no one but someone armed with a rocket launcher can get in. Im deadly serious about keeping shitbags outta my house. Hell, my front door is made of solid steel, bout 3 inches thick. The windows can be bricked up, and the walls have solid steel reinforcements inside. All in all, my house is a freaking fortress. I work about 12 hours a day, 72 hours a week, so i have plenty of time to check my security. Plus, i lift weights every day when i get home, so I know i can kill someone without martial arts though i do know some, but still fighting hand to hand.

Combat situations. Here's the rough breakdown for statistics for police, civilian, and criminal shootings over the years:

Police miss more often per shot than felons, who miss more often per shot than non-felon civilians.

This is because the typical policeman or policewoman spends their time at work - patrolling, etc. They take little time to practice, and the typical policeman fires 45 to 50 rounds per YEAR.

Felons, because they shoot at each other with some frequency, tend to hit more often per shot.

Law abiding civilians fire and practice MUCH more often. I practice to the tune of over 20,000 rounds of pistol ammunition, and nearly that much rifle ammunition, per year. I give instruction to local police - and there isn't one I can't outshoot with a pistol or rifle - especially with a rifle.

And I do not shoot for a living. If you find a policeman who has shooting as a hobby, they will be markedly better than the other police - but since most of their occupation does NOT involve gunning people down every day, they usually spend their free educational time learning other things.

Most police shootings take place at a range of less than 15 feet (half at less than 8 feet), and yet the amount that police miss has gone up - from about 1 hit in 2 shots, to 1 hit in 6 shots.

Interesting. Makes sense, but where did you get the data?

Target and Skeet shooting are or at least used to be UIL approved sports.

In my high school (Way back in the 1970's) we had a skeet shooting team that met on Thursdays. They'd be out on the football field blasting away at clay pigeons after school.:sniper:

I didn't join this group because one of my high-school chores was to shoot rats and opossims in the barn. I didn't need the practice. I was already a good shot.:mp5:

How things change just because of a couple insane kids. 35 years ago when I was in HS every car in the parking area had a gun of some kind and every pickup had a full rack in the back window. Kids brought them in for speech class demonstration speech and no one batted an eye.

I really believe if anyone would have tried anything threatening the other students would have taken them out.

Oh for the good old days............

I think this gun control thing brings up some very interesting issues.

People aren't afraid of what they'd do with guns, they're afraid of what their neighbors would do with guns!

It's just like video games and movies: The rating system exists solely because of parents. And it isn't that parents don't trust what their kids are going to go watch, or how their kids will respond to seeing violence and sex on the big screen: it's because they'd afraid of how their neighbor's kids will respond to that sex and violence.

Welcome to the age of paranoia.

The problem is is that parents have stopped being parents. The Let GTA and Doom3 be the parents while they go and do their own stuff.
It's not the games fault, it's not the guns fault is because people don't pay attention!


And someone needs to get a mod on Harric.

bah, michigan. you people lost a war against ohio.

I consider it a win. Would you rather have Toledo or the UP? Either way, we'd have kicked their asses if Uncle Sam hadn't stuck his nose in.

Of course there's the old joke: "Alright, let's have another war. Loser gets Detroit"

I'll never get it. Never ever.

One of the good things about having nation-states is that you don't have to put up with the policies others have that you don't like.

If some asshole did try to shoot the students there's a good chance that one of the recreational shooters would be able to return fire and take him out before too many people get hurt.

An if anyone were allowed to have a gun, no asshole would try to shoot the students. Is easy if you try, as Lennon said, imagine a better world. No weapons at all is better tha weapons for everyone!

An if anyone were allowed to have a gun, no asshole would try to shoot the students. Is easy if you try, as Lennon said, imagine a better world. No weapons at all is better tha weapons for everyone!

Yeah, but that's hardly realistic. Especially in the United States. We get crazy when we're in large numbers.

Because shooting helps one relax, which is why our posts don't look like yours.

It's better if you smoke a joint, man!;)

Of course, every man who owns a gun has a tiny penis.

:)

Hey, that works against gangs in Rio. That's it. All those of us who are against guns need to do is undermine the confidence of every gun owner we can at every point possible.

I'll never get it. Never ever. :confused:

And you know what? That's okay--just as long as you don't try to stop any other law-abiding citizen from exercising their right to defend themselves in the manner they choose.

I can handle you not having a firearm, and choosing to protect yourself in other ways/methods. I have to let you have your choice. I don't let my values override your decisions on how you affect yourself. That is what self-defense is--just another type of choice.

Now, having been stopped for speeding all of twice in my life, I have yet to do anything terribly unlawful (speeding a bit is about all there is).

So why is everyone so scared of what I MIGHT do with a firearm, when for all these years, I have yet to even hit anyone in anger, kill or wound anything with any of my firearms, and have generally proven I'm not violent in the least? Most people who own firearms are law-abiding citizens who don't cause trouble.

How can a fear of something that cannot do anything without a human brain behind it be so overwhelming for a person as to suspend logic and ignore experiencial proof? That is what I'll never understand.

Just like religion, a firearm won't CAUSE someone to hurt or kill another. Can they both be used to help either along? Sure. Religion can give a killer "justification" to perform acts of violence. A firearm can give someone another method to perform violence--then again, many tools can do the same (hammers, axes, scissors--all specifically designed to apply great force and/or rend matter).

I trust you to make your own decisions as to how to run your own life. The same goes for all the rest of the individuals in the world. I trust them to make their own decisions about their own lives. As long as it's not infringing upon others--then all bets are off. I also expect the same back. Me owning a firearm doesn't infringe upon anyone else's rights. Me using it on another (in any form other than self defense) does. I should be locked away or shot if that ever occurs.

Banning something for what a person MIGHT do is never the answer. Punish after someone's actually done something wrong, not pre-emptively.

Zaxon, although I agree with you in principle, don't you think your choice of quotee was a little harsh? He only expressed his opinion after all...

Zaxon, although I agree with you in principle, don't you think your choice of quotee was a little harsh? He only expressed his opinion after all...

It's more about past posts/opinions than anything. Yes, to a person who's only seen this particular thread, it may seem a bit over the top--but we've batted around the firearms topic before--and the topic of people telling others how to live their lives.

There are several discussions (now we're to general debates, nothing to do with Leonstein at all) that I find interesting--the ones where people are defending what they can and cannot do with their bodies and possessions (drugs, sex, what-have-you) with attackers accusing the defenders of being immoral (emotional rhetoric) or some such nonsense. And we have the reverse with firearms (generally)--those that are scared of what someone might do with them (also emotional rhetoric), and those that wish to have them for defense or hunting or whatever.

All I was saying to Leonstein (and anyone else who is anti-gun but still wants to be able to do whatever THEY want) is that people are free to feel how they feel and do what they need to do for themselves. They just can't monkey with how others go about the same process without being hypocritical.

I consider it a win. Would you rather have Toledo or the UP? Either way, we'd have kicked their asses if Uncle Sam hadn't stuck his nose in.

Of course there's the old joke: "Alright, let's have another war. Loser gets Detroit"

heh, i wonder how many people on here would even know what we're talking about at this point?

heh, i wonder how many people on here would even know what we're talking about at this point?

You mean this?

http://www.michigan.gov/dmva/0,1607,7-126-2360_3003_3009-16934--,00.html

You mean this?

http://www.michigan.gov/dmva/0,1607,7-126-2360_3003_3009-16934--,00.html

aww, there you go giving the game away

When will governments see the light and ban all guns, missiles, bombs etc.!?

When will governments see the light and ban all guns, missiles, bombs etc.!?


Because then they wouldn't have a monopoly on violence like the nanny-staters' want to give them.

aww, there you go giving the game away

Give WI the UP, and I won't do it again. :D Promise.

heh, i wonder how many people on here would even know what we're talking about at this point?

The only people I've ever met that had heard of it were from Michigan or Ohio. But I suppose itd make sense for a few history minded Wisconsinites to have heard of it. Especially as any study of Michigan or Wisconsin military history tends to lead to the other states history.

The DMVA site isn't very descriptive. Wikipedia is much more in depth. link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War)

Give WI the UP, and I won't do it again. Promise.

Never, we won it fair and square :D

Give WI the UP, and I won't do it again. Promise.Never, we won it fair and square :D

alright, let's compromise. chicago takes everything from milwaukee around the lake to like benton harbor or so. the rest of illinois joins the south or iowa or whatever. wisconsin and michigan become the new great lakes super state of michigonsin. and everybody has a good laugh at ohio.

The only people I've ever met that had heard of it were from Michigan or Ohio. But I suppose itd make sense for a few history minded Wisconsinites to have heard of it. Especially as any study of Michigan or Wisconsin military history tends to lead to the other states history.

i actually found out about it because i wondered what the hell was up with michigan's southern border. i mean, come on, it's made of two different straight lines with a bit of a jump in the middle where they didn't match up. that's just silly.

alright, let's compromise. chicago takes everything from milwaukee around the lake to like benton harbor or so. the rest of illinois joins the south or iowa or whatever. wisconsin and michigan become the new great lakes super state of michigonsin. and everybody has a good laugh at ohio.

Well, we're all already doing that.

Anyway, we'll join together, conquer the world, and force everyone to eat cheese, drive Ford's, watch the Packers, play hockey, and drink Faygo.

i actually found out about it because i wondered what the hell was up with michigan's southern border. i mean, come on, it's made of two different straight lines with a bit of a jump in the middle where they didn't match up. that's just silly.

I learned about it in grade school. We do a lot of state history.

WTF is wrong with you people. Bringing guns to school??? Christ you really are asking for it arnt you. It dosent matter if you think that the rec shooters will take out the people having a shoot out, the F****** problem is that it is a school and there is a time and a place for a shooting range. Again its a F&&****** school, what the hell is wrong with you Americans?????
Why are you all a bunch of gun nuts????????
Ironically, your country, Australia, is where the biggest mass gun murder of all time took place. Martin Bryant, two assault rifles, 35 dead. That means nothing but I just thought I'd point it out for the fun of it.

Sheboygan Wisconsin's Urban middle school has an indoor shooting range!

http://www.sheboygan-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060207/SHE0101/602070419/1062
I was on my HS small bore rifle team. We kept our rifles in the school. No biggie. Probably a third of the male students & teachers had a rifle or two in their vehicles in the parking lot too.

Gee. With the ready availability of all that firepower, I wonder why we never had any loser rampages? :rolleyes:

I was on my HS small bore rifle team. We kept our rifles in the school. No biggie. Probably a third of the male students & teachers had a rifle or two in their vehicles in the parking lot too.

Gee. With the ready availability of all that firepower, I wonder why we never had any loser rampages? :rolleyes:


same here,i was in juniour marksmen when i was about 8 years old.

it was a government funded civilian marksmenship program.

i was on my high schools skeet team also.

i remember with the junior thing,being jealous of the older kids cause they got to shoot i think old surplus garands supplied by the government,but i was too small to shoot them.
i did win a couple of tournies with a bolt action .22..woohoo

and yes,i agree with your questioning why we did not have murderous rampages when everyone i knew had a rifle or shotty,hell we didn't even have trigger locks or safes.
everyone i knew had the classic wood gun cabinet or just wall racks.

i think some of the problem with these shootings at schools and post offices is of many factors.
granted they are few(but 1 is 1 too many when an innocent person is hurt or killed)but they are aberrations,and one could look to the decline of the nucleur family,the economy that forces mothers to work when the kid isn't even of schoolage,stress,kid's feeling alone and unpopular for myriad of reasons...poor homelife,heavy violent imagery forced down there throats,no parental supervision(although i will add,i was just as vulnerable to those influences..except i was pretty poular..but my parents werent always around)
many factors..music influences and low/no self esteem..on and on

mostly,i think it was because we learned early on about personall responsibility,and when we did we were punished..sometimes severely.

there were plenty of kids that had horrible familt lives,no self esteem..were ostracised..violent music and influences,many of the socalled contributing factors assigned now.

it just seems are now taught..it is someone elses fault..or you are a victim of your enviroment/class/economic situation..always someone or something elses fault

just like they blame guns for this horror show out there..when in reality guns were probably more prevalent then compared to now..

it is easier to assign blame on an inanimate object....sound familiar...it's not the parents..society..drugs(which i did plenty of)or yourself control(or lack of)
or lack of personal responsibility..it is the guns fault!!!!!!
or the gun cultures!!!
or the availability of guns!!!!!

forgetting they have always been there..guns/gun culture/availability

cant get my head around that logic?

as far as the daily gun violence....thats easy..place blame were it belongs...squarely on the gang and crimminal culture..not honest people that have thru our history never used guns for evil(with teh exception of occasional episodes of marital/crimes of passion..which could easily have been done with a knife or bat or tire iron or lamp or..you get my point)

put it this way..with the street/gang violence out there..having a gun for self defence is a no brainer..as is safe handling and education on safety.

And you know what? That's okay--just as long as you don't try to stop any other law-abiding citizen from exercising their right to defend themselves in the manner they choose...
In principle, I do agree with you. In recent discussions, it has dawned on me that perhaps there is a point in having the right to own a gun. I still don't believe that there is a reason to own a gun, but as a matter of principle, one should probably be allowed.

My point is that guns are ultimately weapons. They can be dangerous. And that's why I don't understand two things:
- Why there is such a cult around the gun in the States. Sorry if you don't see it that way, but to be quite honest, I think it's giving in to the fascination that guns give people for some subconscious reason. A gun range at a school? Isn't that taking it a little bit too far?

- Why people don't want gun registration. Your right to own a gun is in no way diminished by you having to register it. But the fact of the matter is that it makes the job of the police a lot easier if they know who owns a gun and who doesn't, what type it is and where it may have ended up.
Aside from the point you made before about some people just not being qualified to own a gun because they're violent or mentally unfit.

- Why people don't want gun registration. Your right to own a gun is in no way diminished by you having to register it. But the fact of the matter is that it makes the job of the police a lot easier if they know who owns a gun and who doesn't, what type it is and where it may have ended up.
Because, unlike vehicle registration (as I have shown above) "gun registration" is actually "people registration". Governments have a really bad track record when it comes to compiling lists of groups of individuals. (hell, look at what Joe McCarthy did in the 50s' (I'll avoid the Godwin since, while applicable, it is not necessary ;) ))

Once again, as I posted in my article from the '90s, I have no real issues with a genuine Motor Vehicle style "use" license - such as a permit o carry a concealed firearm - but I'll be damned if I'm going to tell the government what guns I have, or support legislation to mandate the compilation of a list of gun owners.

You mean this?

http://www.michigan.gov/dmva/0,1607,7-126-2360_3003_3009-16934--,00.html

Ahhhhh, the good all days when two states could almost start border wars with eachother. I think the midwest should form a superstate.

In principle, I do agree with you. In recent discussions, it has dawned on me that perhaps there is a point in having the right to own a gun. I still don't believe that there is a reason to own a gun, but as a matter of principle, one should probably be allowed.

My point is that guns are ultimately weapons. They can be dangerous. And that's why I don't understand two things:
- Why there is such a cult around the gun in the States. Sorry if you don't see it that way, but to be quite honest, I think it's giving in to the fascination that guns give people for some subconscious reason. A gun range at a school? Isn't that taking it a little bit too far?

- Why people don't want gun registration. Your right to own a gun is in no way diminished by you having to register it. But the fact of the matter is that it makes the job of the police a lot easier if they know who owns a gun and who doesn't, what type it is and where it may have ended up.
Aside from the point you made before about some people just not being qualified to own a gun because they're violent or mentally unfit.


Sorry it took me so long....was out of state for a few days. :)

I'll always defend someone's right to choose to own/use a firearm or not. So if you don't want to own a gun, that's just fine.

In response to your points:

1) Cult? Fascination? While I do find shooting entertaining and fun, the primary reason why I have firearms is for protection (target shooting secondary--and where the most use comes from--with hunting tertiary--I don't normally hunt, but if I ever have the need, I want it to be there). The Supreme Court of the US has already handed down a few decisions where police do not have to protect citizens. That leaves one person defending themselves. Also, police cannot be everywhere at all times. If it takes 30 minutes to an hour for the police to arrive, you're already robbed, hurt, or dead.

We've seen it several times across the general list--conservative estimates by anti-gun groups start at 100,000 crimes prevented annually by the presence of a firearm and liberal estimates by pro-gun groups top off at 2.5 million crimes prevented by the presence of a firearm. Even with the lowest of the low, that's still more than 6 times the murder rate with a firearm annually (all this in the US). That tells me they're doing more good than harm.

Gun range at a school....just like safe sex, driving, whatever, the sooner you learn about it, the safer you're going to be. Same applies to firearms. Ignorance is always dangerous. You learn proper handling techniques in school, you may just take those safety procedures outside to real life. You'll find that most people that do own firearms had learned how at a pre-adult age. Hunting is very prevalent in the US (most notably in rural areas), and kids learn to shoot early.

2) Why no gun registration? Freedom, plain and simple. The 2nd amendment was created to protect us from our OWN government, to halt oppression by despotic government. Registration gives the government a nice list of whom to hit first, should the neocons actually want to wrest complete control from the American populace (an example).

Don't get me wrong, I do think there should be stiff penalties for those that are violent to begin with (not just with a firearm, but in any fashion)--much stiffer than what we have today. But this is after someone's done something wrong. Until someone screws up and proves they can't be responsible, you can't pre-emptively punish folks by determining what they can or cannot own/use. That's not how freedom works. That's control of others--and that goes against what this country supposedly represents.

Your a stupid Arrogant American Fucknut.
You an all your fucknut mates, bring you guns with you for fucking everything. Why dont you go have a few drinks and drive home you red neck fuckhead. Thats why you country is so fucked up.

Go ahead and ban your guns, it will only make it easier for us to invade

;)