NationStates Jolt Archive

All right a question to the guys...and girls too!(or men and women, or ladies and gentlemen, or lords and ladies, or kings and queens, or masters and misstresses...err, yeah)

Assuming you all have a bit of a social life and are homo or hetero or bi sexual, lets say you go out and have dinner, or lunch. Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it? (assuming of course, you have some form of currency) Do you make her do it?

Girls, what's your take on it? Annoying and egotistical, or sweet?

I do realize that boy and girl can be changed according to preference, but I don't want to type that much!

All right a question to the guys...and girls too!(or men and women, or ladies and gentlemen, or lords and ladies, or kings and queens, or masters and misstresses...err, yeah)

Assuming you all have a bit of a social life and are homo or hetero or bi sexual, lets say you go out and have dinner, or lunch. Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it? (assuming of course, you have some form of currency) Do you make her do it?

Girls, what's your take on it? Annoying and egotistical, or sweet?

I do realize that boy and girl can be changed according to preference, but I don't want to type that much!

good question... It definitely depends on the situation. If there is an implication of being a romantic engagement, it's ok for the guy to offer to pay, (or the girl for that matter). If you are going as friends, there is nothing wrong with "going dutch" and each paying for yourself. I have a great pleutonic friend that is female, and when her and I go out, we both pay our own way, unless one of us just insists "I've got it this time"... Simple logic.

If you want to bang her.....definitely offer to pay....

It depends, on who initiates the date, if the guy does he should pay, if the girl does she should pay, if you have been dating a while and the dates are mutually initiated then you both pay your share or switch off as to who pays for what. ;)

If you want to bang her.....definitely offer to pay....

Lol, what a deep and incredible mindset. But the weird thing is, I have a friend who's also female...and she likes paying. Now I think she is just lying, and paying would sweep her off her feet.

Lol, what a deep and incredible mindset. But the weird thing is, I have a friend who's also female...and she likes paying. Now I think she is just lying, and paying would sweep her off her feet.

If your friend likes to pay, and you get to bang her..... SWEET DEAL!!

If I'm trying to impress the girl, I pay for it all. Otherwise we split the bill.

The first couple times, I figure that whoever asks, pays. So if a guy asks a girl out, he should pay. If the girl asks the guy, she should pay. (Well, the guy could interject and offer to pay if he really felt like it, and she may or may not accept, but depends on the guy.) After that, meh. Whoever has money on them at the time. Once you start dating someone regularly, it really becomes less of a deal as to who pays. You take turns, split bills, do whatever. Special events, though, same as original policy - if he arranges it, he pays, if she arranges it, she pays. Simple, fair, all good.

Edit: See, cos I'm a girl, and I have no problem paying if I asked - in fact, I'd feel awkward expecting a guy to pay when I initiated the date. I guess it's sweet if a guy insists on paying, and yeah, it might impress me a bit, but I wouldn't hold anything against him if he didn't. Even if he asked, I would have no problem splitting the bill. (Though, once again, it's sweet and sort of impressive if he does pay.)

I pay for it using money I get from pimping her out. :D

Nah. Split it, sometimes do it all myself. I'm fairly generous. I feel guilty when someone else pays for my stuff.

Eh, I'd sort of take it as accepted I'd pay, 'less she says something to the contrary.


"(Though, once again, it's sweet and sort of impressive if he does pay.)"


And thus is my motivation.

If i asked the Girl out i'd pay for us both. If she insisted on going Dutch, that would be fine, but i wouldn't let her pay for all of it. My girlfriend (now Fiancee) used to pay for another part of the evening - like the Taxi home, or the popcorn & drinks at the Cinema. Now we live together and she's gonna be a mum so now i pay all of it. Perks of 'Banging' i guess ;)

Assuming you all have a bit of a social life and are homo or hetero or bi sexual, lets say you go out and have dinner, or lunch. Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it? (assuming of course, you have some form of currency) Do you make her do it?
I've made girls pay :)

Although, as a general rule, I almost never go out for dinner or lunch on a first or second date, but perhaps a cup of coffee or something that will be short and yet allow some conversation. Mainly because you don't know how you'll click with that person and to avoid having to pay a big bill :)

If you want to bang her.....definitely offer to pay....
Of course, otherwise her pimp will come after you.

(Unless she's a cop. In that case, don't offer to pay)

Always at least offer to pay for the date/dinner/movie/sex whatever

Somehow I always managed to completely forego the whole "dating" ritual, cut right to the chase, and indulge in protracted horned-up sex all night instead. I don't think I've ever gone on a proper date 'til after I've had it off at least once. But when I'm on a date, I'll always pay unless my date says otherwise.

i offer to pay every time. the guy never lets me. what can i say. :)

Offering to pay is the best way to go, but if you honestly don't have any money, it is important to be honest with her about it and not try to give her false impressions by blowing all of your funds on expensive dates, no matter how romantic it might be.

I'm a guy, btw.

I always pay if I am with a girl. ALWAYS. Even if she were married, unattractive, and 90 years old. Hell, I pay for my cousin if we go out to eat. (and no, I do not live in West Virginia, you sickos.)

I am cheap… lol very cheap…

I wouldn’t put my self in the situation where it would be like pulling teeth to open my wallet, yet a gun shot in the foot to make her pay. If I had to choose I would make her pay though.... Again I would never put my self in that situation.
I'd have a nice little cooking experience at the house. We shop together, pay together, and cook together. Sure it’s a lot of work, but worth it, and in my view more romantic then a candle lit dinner at some restaurant. It will definitely be cheaper then a dinner date, and you have the full opportunity to skip dessert and the nasty controversial check.

I always pay if I am with a girl. ALWAYS. Even if she were married, unattractive, and 90 years old. Hell, I pay for my cousin if we go out to eat. (and no, I do not live in West Virginia, you sickos.)

Well, looking at your location, you calling us sickos is hypocritical, even though I was going to say that...

Seems like offering to pay is the best way to go. But for more complexity, what's the deal with group dates? Split it all up with your friends and dates, pay for you and your date's to show up the other guy/girl?

I like this thread.

Well, looking at your location, you calling us sickos is hypocritical, even though I was going to say that...

Seems like offering to pay is the best way to go. But for more complexity, what's the deal with group dates? Split it all up with your friends and dates, pay for you and your date's to show up the other guy/girl?

I like this thread.

I despise group dates. Either hang out with your friends (and possibly your girl/boyfriend as well because they are one of your friends), or go on a date with your girl/boyfriend. Both are equally acceptable in my opinion, but the two should not mix.

Your reasoning behind it?

Strictly old school. When I ask a woman out, I pay.

I've been seeing someone exclusively for about 6 months though and sometimes she insists on paying for part of an evenings entertainment, like cover charges, a round of drinks, or occasionally the dinner tab. I never assume though and wouldn't dream of taking her out without the means to cover our plans for the night.

I always pay on dates but not always otherwise.
BTW I'm a guy.

Your reasoning behind it?

Well, hanging out with friends is designed to improve platonic relationships, going on a date is designed to improve non-platonic relationships. If your boy/girlfriend happens to also be one of your friends that you normally hang out with anyways, I think it is important to have some distinction between going on a date and hanging out with friends, or else things can easily become awkward (as a general rule, that is).

Then again, I'm hugely conservative about everything...

On a first date, I pay all of it, even if she wants to pay her share. On the second date, she gets to pay (and she knows it beforehand.) Anything after that I either pay or we go dutch.

Split the bill. Honestly, I just hate guys who insist on paying all of it. I have no problem at all with a guy buying me a drink, that's just courteous and polite, but dinner or lunch is a different matter. To me, paying for the whole thing looks extremely patronising... it'll lower your chances tremendously.

Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it?
Informal, I split it up. That's because I'm a feminist, and I think women are just as equal as men. They also usually have more change than me. Its a purse thing.

Formal, I pay. That's because I'm wearing a suit and tie, and not only looking, but feeling pimp (in the good way). My duty is to make my woman look good.

But always remember:
Your job is always to please your woman, no matter the circumstances.
That means don't just follow some formula guys!

I nearly always pick up the tab nowadays, but that's mainly cause I'm earning enough to be able to do so.
But then, I do that with my mates as well, not just girls I'm going out on dates with.

If the girl does offer to pay, I usually suggest we go get a coffee and they can pay for that. I might also say she can pay next time. That way she feels I'm not trying to impress or make her feel obligated towards me somehow.

I nearly always pick up the tab nowadays, but that's mainly cause I'm earning enough to be able to do so.
But then, I do that with my mates as well, not just girls I'm going out on dates with.

If the girl does offer to pay, I usually suggest we go get a coffee and they can pay for that. I might also say she can pay next time. That way she feels I'm not trying to impress or make her feel obligated towards me somehow.

Next time? Now, that might make some girls feel pressured.... ;)

All right a question to the guys...and girls too!(or men and women, or ladies and gentlemen, or lords and ladies, or kings and queens, or masters and misstresses...err, yeah)

Assuming you all have a bit of a social life and are homo or hetero or bi sexual, lets say you go out and have dinner, or lunch. Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it? (assuming of course, you have some form of currency) Do you make her do it?

Girls, what's your take on it? Annoying and egotistical, or sweet?

I do realize that boy and girl can be changed according to preference, but I don't want to type that much!
I would preferrably like to pay for the date. (a guy btw)

Next time? Now, that might make some girls feel pressured.... ;)
Not if we never make a next time!

All right a question to the guys...and girls too!(or men and women, or ladies and gentlemen, or lords and ladies, or kings and queens, or masters and misstresses...err, yeah)

Assuming you all have a bit of a social life and are homo or hetero or bi sexual, lets say you go out and have dinner, or lunch. Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it? (assuming of course, you have some form of currency) Do you make her do it?

Girls, what's your take on it? Annoying and egotistical, or sweet?

I do realize that boy and girl can be changed according to preference, but I don't want to type that much!

Depends, some girls I would make do it, like if they're really bitchy or kind of a skank...

But for girls I like, I would definately pay it if I have the money. If I don't then I'd probably make her pay for herself. OOooor if she had a job and it was just a casual dining thing. But for dates if you have the money its probably for the best if you choose the restaurant or eating place. If she picks it just see what she wants to do, because if my girl picks an expensive place I'll probably be a bit divided over whether or not to pay it.


Ironically, if I bring friends out to eat I sometimes pay for them too if I can afford it. I'm just cool like that. ;)

It usually depends on who grabs the check first. If I was on a first date, I would offer to pay my half if I wasn't the one to grab the check. Assuming I got a "no", I would not offer to pay on any future dates unless I grab the check first.

Depends, some girls I would make do it, like if they're really bitchy or kind of a skank...

But for girls I like, I would definately pay it if I have the money.

So, let me get this straight... you date girls that you think are really bitchy/kind of a skank/don't like?

:confused:

If I am asking the other person out, I pay, unless we make some other agreement. Talking to the other person works, and they're free to ask me.

Paying does not imply any obligation to me.

If they ask me out, they pay, unless I feel generous.

Doctrine is not dogma, though.

Paying is default for me. If she mentions that she wants to pay, I insist once, perhaps twice, but if she genuinely wants to pay (for herself, I'd hate to have her pay for me, it'd make me feel like a failure as a date), I don't want to make her feel indebted to me.

I fight tooth and nail to pay for the whole thing, but if the situation is at a stalemate I'll surrender to split the bill.

If I asked someone out on a date I'd expect to pay for it. If I were asked out, I'd expect the other to pay. If I ended up having to pay in the latter case I'd be miffed unless it was mentioned/agreed on beforehand.

Of course that's mostly theoretical.

All right a question to the guys...and girls too!(or men and women, or ladies and gentlemen, or lords and ladies, or kings and queens, or masters and misstresses...err, yeah)

Assuming you all have a bit of a social life and are homo or hetero or bi sexual, lets say you go out and have dinner, or lunch. Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it? (assuming of course, you have some form of currency) Do you make her do it?

Girls, what's your take on it? Annoying and egotistical, or sweet?

I do realize that boy and girl can be changed according to preference, but I don't want to type that much!
In most situations I pay my share. If the outing was my idea, or if I picked the restaurant, I typically offer to pay for my guest as well.

With my significant other, we tend to take turns just because it's simpler...we both like using cards to pay and it's simpler to just put everything on one card.

I am completely turned off by guys who always insist on paying for me. It's nice of them to offer, and I know most of them don't mean to be rude, but I find it as insulting as when there's a guy who always holds the door open only for women. If a guy is being kind to me simply because I am female then he's not worth my time. If he's being kind to me because he's just kind to everybody in general then that's terrific (i.e. he always offers to pick up the check, regardless of company, or he holds doors open for anybody, regardless of gender). I don't want to be treated "like a lady," I want to be treated with the same dignity and respect as anybody else.

If a guy is being kind to me simply because I am female then he's not worth my time.What if he's kind to you just because you're you?
(Although, I suppose, if that means he's an ass to everyone else, that's a good enough reason not to like him either..)

What if he's kind to you just because you're you?
(Although, I suppose, if that means he's an ass to everyone else, that's a good enough reason not to like him either..)
That's pretty much my thinking. I don't expect everybody to be nice to everybody else all the time, of course, but I do expect a certain level of respect and courtesy. If somebody is kind to me but a jerk to everybody else, I don't particularly trust him (or her).

I am completely turned off by guys who always insist on paying for me. It's nice of them to offer, and I know most of them don't mean to be rude, but I find it as insulting as when there's a guy who always holds the door open only for women. If a guy is being kind to me simply because I am female then he's not worth my time. If he's being kind to me because he's just kind to everybody in general then that's terrific (i.e. he always offers to pick up the check, regardless of company, or he holds doors open for anybody, regardless of gender). I don't want to be treated "like a lady," I want to be treated with the same dignity and respect as anybody else.

That's interesting. Could it not be they offer to pay for a woman or hold a door open because they respect women more? What if the guy just feels that a woman deserves it (or most do), and that a man on average would be offended? I myself hold the door open to everyone, but I am conscious that I am extra nice to girls and do the 'gentlemanly thing' around them. I don't do it because I respect them less, more that I believe they will be glad to have such lavished upon them, and a man prefers a more butch method of communicating respect.

That's interesting. Could it not be they offer to pay for a woman or hold a door open because they respect women more?

Then he's not worth my time. Anybody who thinks that one's gender determines how much respect one should get is not worth dating (in my opinion).


What if the guy just feels that a woman deserves it (or most do), and that a man on average would be offended?

Then they've been hanging around with some really stupid men. Most guys aren't offended by somebody offering to pick up the check...hell, most guys seem to view it as a normal ritual, arguing over who is going to pay.

I myself hold the door open to everyone, but I am conscious that I am extra nice to girls and do the 'gentlemanly thing' around them. I don't do it because I respect them less, more that I believe they will be glad to have such lavished upon them, and a man prefers a more butch method of communicating respect.
I don't waste my time with men who would be bothered by having somebody hold a door for them. I hold doors for anybody who happens to get to the door at the same time I do. It's simple courtesy. If a man is insecure enough to be insulted by my holding a door for him then he clearly has problems he needs to work through on his own.

As for men wanting more "butch" forms of respect, I don't express respect exclusively by holding doors or picking up checks. I express respect for individual people on an individual basis. Holding doors and offering to pay when I am the host...those things are general, basic human manners, and males are as deserving of them as females.

Very true. But there are some things that are good for one and not for the other. For example, a friendly punch on the arm can be a show of respect or comradery to a man, whereas a woman will just think the guy who does it is an idiot. Could it (or does it) not go both ways? That there are some things that men will accept as a show of respect, and some things that women will accept as a show of respect. If I complement a girl on her clothing and I don't a man, is that being sexist?

It depends for me.

If we both have the same income, then going dutch or paying on alternate dates is good (although sometimes guys can be quicker on the draw with the wallet...) if he earns a lot more than me, I would prefer if he paid for dates more frequently as he can afford to do so and I do the same if the situation is reversed.

I am completely turned off by guys who always insist on paying for me. It's nice of them to offer, and I know most of them don't mean to be rude, but I find it as insulting as when there's a guy who always holds the door open only for women. If a guy is being kind to me simply because I am female then he's not worth my time. If he's being kind to me because he's just kind to everybody in general then that's terrific (i.e. he always offers to pick up the check, regardless of company, or he holds doors open for anybody, regardless of gender). I don't want to be treated "like a lady," I want to be treated with the same dignity and respect as anybody else.

I used to feel that way. In my case, it was because I needed men (and society) to acknowledge my equality and individuality. Let's face it: society IS misogynistic. It feels very patronizing sometimes to be treated differently just because you're a woman.

Fast forward a decade or so. I no longer feel such a need to get other people to acknowledge any part of my life or personality. I now know from personal experience that I can go toe to toe with anyone, and that's all the validation I need.

Also, I am reminded every day that kindness - and a gentleman paying IS kindness - is very rare. I've learned to accept it when it's offered... not because I'm a woman and am incapable of doing it all, but because it's SO much nicer when I don't have to do it all!!!

Let him be a knight, I say. He gets his hero complex, you get a break, everyone goes home happy. :)

Unless of course he's one of those guys who expects you to "give back" when he pays for dinner, in which case he's no true gentleman, and you owe him nothing.

Very true. But there are some things that are good for one and not for the other. For example, a friendly punch on the arm can be a show of respect or comradery to a man, whereas a woman will just think the guy who does it is an idiot.

I don't choose to associate with people who are unimaginative enough to play along with such stereotypes. I require more interesting company :).

Could it (or does it) not go both ways? That there are some things that men will accept as a show of respect, and some things that women will accept as a show of respect.

I don't choose to associate with men or women who are so close-minded. The behaviors I use to express respect are universal, not gender-typed, such that any person could recognize my intent. I find this much wiser in general, because males and females don't follow the kind of black-and-white mentality you're talking about...many men I know would respond with hostility to somebody who punched them on the arm, while many women would take it as a companionable joke. I find it best to not go around punching people until I know them better. At which point the punching is no longer about them being male or female, it's about the individual as I have come to know them.


If I complement a girl on her clothing and I don't a man, is that being sexist?
Depends; if both are equally well-dressed, then I would say yes it is sexist. Doesn't mean you're a bad person, or that you shouldn't compliment anybody, but you might want to ask yourself why you feel that women should be complimented on their appearances while men should not. Or why you feel comfortable praising a woman for being attractive, but not a man.

If, in one situation, you happen to praise a woman's appearance but not a man's, no big deal. But if you make a habit of praising women and not praising men, then I think it's pretty obvious that you are displaying a certain level of sexism.

Also, I am reminded every day that kindness - and a gentleman paying IS kindness - is very rare. I've learned to accept it when it's offered... not because I'm a woman and am incapable of doing it all, but because it's SO much nicer when I don't have to do it all!!!
That's the whole point of chivalry! Right on!

Wow. I get to disagree with Bottle. Who would have thought it possible.

Then he's not worth my time. Anybody who thinks that one's gender determines how much respect one should get is not worth dating (in my opinion).

In some places, particularly the U.S. south, it is drilled into you from an early age to respect women. It is not that I feel women are weak, or that they deserve more respect because they are women. It is because in the back of my mind, I know if I didn't hold the door for ANY woman that somehow my mother would see it, come round the corner, and smack the bejesus out of me. It is a habit. Platonically speaking, isn't that the highest ideal?

Then they've been hanging around with some really stupid men. Most guys aren't offended by somebody offering to pick up the check...hell, most guys seem to view it as a normal ritual, arguing over who is going to pay.

Not really. If someone got promoted, or won the lottery maybe. Usually guys just each throw in a twenty or so and insist they don't want any change. THAT's a ritual.


I don't waste my time with men who would be bothered by having somebody hold a door for them. I hold doors for anybody who happens to get to the door at the same time I do. It's simple courtesy. If a man is insecure enough to be insulted by my holding a door for him then he clearly has problems he needs to work through on his own.

There is a difference, and it depends on the situation. A girl holding a door for a guy is one thing, OPENING a door is another. There is a subtle, but very big difference. With men, it is like a native ritual. I'm not saying I like this part, it's just the way it is. Like with the "guy nod". There are all sorts of subtle rules depending on the situation. You are allowed to open the door if it is for a girl, and continue holding it open for her guy so you do not "break apart the couple". If you cut him off, it can be seen as a challenge and an invasion into the other guy's space. You can hold the door for a guy at any time, but you cannot open it for him unless he is with a girl.

If anyone's interested, I'm pretty sure I figured out why it's traditional for men to hold the door for women...

Last year I was going to a school formal and was wearing a long dress. It was snowy and slushy on the ground so I had to carry my dress to keep it clean. Since my hands were full with my dress, I was compeltely incapable of opening any doors. It's probably a custom that evolved when women would wear dresses everywhere and have to lift up their skirts to keep them clean... so it's unnecessary now most of the time, as women wear pants more often than skirts.

Although I just hold the door for anyone who I'm with if I get there first.

There is a difference, and it depends on the situation. A girl holding a door for a guy is one thing, OPENING a door is another. There is a subtle, but very big difference. With men, it is like a native ritual. I'm not saying I like this part, it's just the way it is. Like with the "guy nod". There are all sorts of subtle rules depending on the situation. You are allowed to open the door if it is for a girl, and continue holding it open for her guy so you do not "break apart the couple". If you cut him off, it can be seen as a challenge and an invasion into the other guy's space. You can hold the door for a guy at any time, but you cannot open it for him unless he is with a girl.
Wtf?

Why not just open the door, see if there is anyone immediately behind you who also wants through, step aside and let them through the door you just opened, regardless of age or gender? It's just polite.

I used to feel that way. In my case, it was because I needed men (and society) to acknowledge my equality and individuality. Let's face it: society IS misogynistic. It feels very patronizing sometimes to be treated differently just because you're a woman.

For me it does not have to do with getting acknowledgement of my particular status. I simply prefer to associate with people who show equal respect for all humans.

Put it to you this way: I react to a man who only opens doors for women the way I would react to a man who only opens doors for black people. I don't find anything charming or respectful about using arbitrary categories to determine how well you treat your fellow human beings.


Fast forward a decade or so. I no longer feel such a need to get other people to acknowledge any part of my life or personality. I now know from personal experience that I can go toe to toe with anyone, and that's all the validation I need.

Lol, I have never thought of using door-openning or check-paying as a means to find validation! I was reared to believe that my actions determine my worth, not the actions of others...and that is why I treat all people with equal respect. I am validated by my own choices and my own honor, not by how and when and why other people defer to me.


Also, I am reminded every day that kindness - and a gentleman paying IS kindness - is very rare.

I'm sorry to hear that :(. I guess I'm lucky to live in a place where kindness is quite common.


I've learned to accept it when it's offered... not because I'm a woman and am incapable of doing it all, but because it's SO much nicer when I don't have to do it all!!!

And I certainly do accept kindness when it is offered. I have never, EVER, yelled at a man who held a door for me, or who pulled out my chair for me, or who offered to pay for dinner. Okay, well, once I yelled at my boyfriend for trying to pay for dinner, but that was because it was his bloody birthday. I'll be damned if any friend or lover of mine will pay for their own birthday dinner!


Let him be a knight, I say. He gets his hero complex, you get a break, everyone goes home happy. :)

Two problems with this:

1) I would rather open my own doors than pander to anybody's "hero complex." I would hate to think that my own laziness (particularly over something as trivial as holding a door) would contribute to yet another idjit who thinks that treating girls differently than boys makes him a "hero."

2) If the man in question is a friend or lover of mine, I wouldn't "go home happy" until I had explained to him why I don't feel it is respectful of him to use my gender as the basis for his behavior toward me. I certainly wouldn't be rude about it, because I know the intentions are good, but I would want to make sure that he understood my feelings about it.


Unless of course he's one of those guys who expects you to "give back" when he pays for dinner, in which case he's no true gentleman, and you owe him nothing.
Well yeah, and that's the other big pitfall. A lot of people portray door-holding and check-paying as inherently gentlemanly actions, but I've actually found quite the opposite...guys who are extremely vocal about their chivalry tend to also be guys with very "traditional" notions about a woman's role. They tend to believe that paying for dinner entitles them to something, or that openning doors and pulling out chairs gives them a free pass to act rudely in other areas. Many of them think that if they follow a certain simple set of rules then they can call themselves "gentlemen," even if many of their other actions are profoundly ungentlemanly.

This is why I prefer men who are respectful all around. They are more likely to be respectful of me in ALL settings, not just in the settings where tradition has set out a code for male behavior. Their respect is more likely to stem from a genuine sense of kindness, and less from a desire to stroke their own ego and make themselves appear a hero.

It depends for me.

If we both have the same income, then going dutch or paying on alternate dates is good (although sometimes guys can be quicker on the draw with the wallet...) if he earns a lot more than me, I would prefer if he paid for dates more frequently as he can afford to do so and I do the same if the situation is reversed.
It's about the same here. My girlfriend and I wind up paying for about the same share of stuff by taking it in turns (because neither of us likes letting the other pay for them ;) ).
I used to do something similar with another friend - but now she's a student again, so I'm happy to pay for her. I don't want her discouraged from spending time with me because of something so silly as a lack of money. It's only fair; my friends paid for more than their fair share when I was unemployed.

Of course, if I ask someone out, I'm expecting to pay, and I can't split the bill unless it's arranged beforehand; I pay for everything by card and rarely carry enough cash for a pint, let alone half a night out...

If anyone's interested, I'm pretty sure I figured out why it's traditional for men to hold the door for women...
[snip]

Oh... I just thought it was so they could look at the woman's arse after they went through. Maybe I'm just a cynic.

Put it to you this way: I react to a man who only opens doors for women the way I would react to a man who only opens doors for black people. I don't find anything charming or respectful about using arbitrary categories to determine how well you treat your fellow human beings.It's not that arbitrary though..
Would you react the same to a man who only wants to sleep with women as to one that only wants to sleep with black people?

No, I'm not saying 'wanting to sleep with them' is a reason men open doors for women. Although I suppose it does allow you to check them out a bit more ;)

Disclamer: Let me just say I'm not sure how this will sound, and as I currently have a fever it could come out a bit strange


I would say that in my own behavior (I cannot speak for anyone else), it does not appear to be a bad thing. I know that I pay more respect to everyone than the average man on the street, and I hold open doors etc all the time. I admit I take more care over my actions when around girls, for any number of psycological reasons. But is this really bad? Moreover, is it something for those who are having a better deal of it to complain about? I do not expect a man to ask to pay when we have lunch somewhere, or to complement me on my look. I doubt many men would. So how is this harming anyone?

On the whole chivalry thing, I think it's really hard for guys to know in todays world what to do. Some women (and I'm sorry for generalising, but I'm lazy) expect you to do things like open the doors for them, and others find that offensive. I used to have a girlfriend who, everytime I took her out, more or less demanded that I pay the bill. Once I suggested that maybe she should pay for me, since i always brought her out, and she sulked for the rest of the night. Ironically she claimed to be a feminist.
Then there was my last girlfriend, who when I first tried to insist on paying the bill, laughed at me. She always refused to let me pay, and insisted on either her paying, or splitting the bill. She payed for me more often than I payed for her, though we normally went 50/50. I respected her so much for that. :)

It's not that arbitrary though..
Would you react the same to a man who only wants to sleep with women as to one that only wants to sleep with black people?

Sexual attraction is a totally different matter. When it comes to sex, I don't see why anybody should force themselves to sleep with someone to whom they are not attracted. However, I do think that all people should express equal respect for others...hopefully they would not have to force themselves to do so, but if they do then so be it. One should be respectful even to those one does not find attractive, and even to those one does not like.

Put it to you another way: to me, using a person's gender as a deciding factor in their attractiveness is no more or less odd than using their race. When I hear people talking about how they are only attracted to males or only attracted to females, to me it is like hearing them say they are only attracted to Asians or only attracted to red-heads. I don't understand it, and I certainly don't share those feelings, but it's also not really any of my concern...they can like who they like and want what they want. All I care about is that they show equal respect for everybody.

However, I do think that all people should express equal respect for others...hopefully they would not have to force themselves to do so, but if they do then so be it. One should be respectful even to those one does not find attractive, and even to those one does not like. Even so, equal respect does not necessarily imply equal behaviour. It's a cultural thing after all.
Behaving the same way to all genders (also stepping away from the assumption there are only two), may be very much insulting to several of them.
Applied to western culture however, I really wouldn't know. (Besides, it's not a monoculture either). Besides, I'm not convinced it even has anything to do with respect.

And for the record I usually just keep the door open in passing for the people following me, and hold them open for people carrying things.

Even so, equal respect does not necessarily imply equal behaviour. It's a cultural thing after all.

In the case of these behaviors, I believe it does.


Behaving the same way to all genders (also stepping away from the assumption there are only two), may be very much insulting to several of them.

If somebody feels disrespected by the fact that I show equal courtesy toward all human beings, then that's their problem.

If a racist is insulted by the fact that I show equal respect for blacks and whites, does that mean I should start treating races differently to make the racist happy?


And for the record I usually just keep the door open in passing for the people following me, and hold them open for people carrying things.
Yep.

If somebody feels disrespected by the fact that I show equal courtesy toward all human beings, then that's their problem.If you don't show equal courtesy it's also their problem, though. Unless they make it your problem (but that also goes for the other case). So in short it doesn't say much in itself.

I'm just not sure how something can be courteous at all if you don't take someone's preferences in consideration. On the other hand you can't very well ask everyone first if they'd like you to open a door for them; it's a spur of the moment thing. I suppose that's where societal norms come it. People go with what the usual behaviour is, and most feel comfortable in that. Going against it may make people uncomfortable, but at the same time, this may be necessary if things need to change.
I'm sure this has something to do with the drop in politeness and common courtesy allround. People aren't standing up in the bus or train for the elderly as much as they used to either. Sure, there's rampant anti-socialism, but it's also because they're no longer expected to. If they do do it, it's strange. Just so with opening doors for anyone. If you can get away with not doing it, all the better. When in doubt, bail.
At least it used to be nice and simple (Or, so it seems now. I wasn't around back when supposedly all was better).

If a racist is insulted by the fact that I show equal respect for blacks and whites, does that mean I should start treating races differently to make the racist happy?There's obviously a conflict in that, and I'd say the racist is outnumbered by the people that would prefer equal respect. You can't make everybody happy. Nor should you, because some people are quite sick in their head.
Equal respect to everyone is problematic for the same reason, can you have equally much respect for a racist as anyone else?

First of all, Bottle, I'd like to say that your views are refreshing. I wish more people felt as empowered as you do.

My sense of empowerment has come with life experience. I wish I had started out of the gate at 18 with all the self-confidence I needed in life, but I didn't. Although, speaking honestly, I think pretty much any teenage girl who ends up in the US military with an M-16 in her hands is going to feel like she has something to prove. :D But that's another debate.

That said, I have to agree with Damor on this point:

I'm just not sure how something can be courteous at all if you don't take someone's preferences in consideration. On the other hand you can't very well ask everyone first if they'd like you to open a door for them; it's a spur of the moment thing. I suppose that's where societal norms come it. People go with what the usual behaviour is, and most feel comfortable in that. Going against it may make people uncomfortable, but at the same time, this may be necessary if things need to change.

I grew up in the rural American South, where everyone is "Sir" or "Ma'am". Now I live in Cincinnati, and although I seem uber-polite by local standards, I can't shake that ingrained feeling that to behave otherwise would be rude. I have lived in enough other places now that I don't automatically see it as rudeness if others don't respond in kind. Still, stereotypical Southern manners and chivalry set me at ease, and I certainly find them desirable in a man. I'd even go so far as to say that they are a requirement for me in a long-term relationship. In a friendship, it isn't an issue. But I wouldn't want to live with someone, day in and day out, whose default behavior toward others was something I'd been raised to see as rudeness.

I hope I'm making sense. :)

Assuming you all have a bit of a social life and are homo or hetero or bi sexual, lets say you go out and have dinner, or lunch. Do you guys pay for it all, do you split it? (assuming of course, you have some form of currency) Do you make her do it?
Yes, splitting it is the best way. It's not fair for one partner to pay. I especially hate the belief that the man should pay. It's based on the assumption that the male and female partners are not equal.

But I don't eat out much and I prefer to go on a long walk with a girl. That way, there are no distractions, more freedom, no bills to pay and no goddamned table between us!

I despise group dates. Either hang out with your friends (and possibly your girl/boyfriend as well because they are one of your friends), or go on a date with your girl/boyfriend. Both are equally acceptable in my opinion, but the two should not mix.
I agree. Ruins the mood.

That's interesting. Could it not be they offer to pay for a woman or hold a door open because they respect women more?
Why could women in general possibly deserve more respect than men in general? More likely its because he wants sex with women and not with men.

Very true. But there are some things that are good for one and not for the other. For example, a friendly punch on the arm can be a show of respect or comradery to a man, whereas a woman will just think the guy who does it is an idiot.
This does not compute at all with my experience. My girlfriends are not averse to a bit of light violence.

Why could women in general possibly deserve more respect than men in general?They're the givers of life!

i think it depends on your mutual circumstance. if you're going out with someone who doesn't really have the means to pay (unemployed or a student for example) then its entirely acceptable for you to pay. if we both have the means to pay then it makes sense to split the bill. its fair.

if however i were to take somone i know out as "my treat" then i will indeed foot the bill myself and won't take any shit