NationStates Jolt Archive

Across the world, there are tons of people who seem, well, somewhere between silly and insane wacko psychotic (insert picture of arabs burning Dutch flags over a cartoon strip (seriously, do these guys keep a stock of various countries flags to burn, and is there a market in opening a flag store over there - for burning?)) Lets face it, the only reason we spend more than two seconds thinking about these idiots is because they have oil, otherwise, we wouldn't care less what they did, and they wouldn't have enough money to buy a bucket to hold their rocks, let alone a firearm, or a plane ticket to get anywhere. Here is a poll to ask the real question -- can this thing be solved, and how? How do you reason with unreasonable, how do you do you civilize way-out insane.

Arabs and Oil: We need it, they got it -- what to do

What do you need the oil for? Is it in order to maintain the wealth and resources imbalances between First World countries and the rest of the world, and thus retain the US's position as top dog exploiter of the planet?

Perhaps we could encourage sustainable, non-oil based economic growth to reduce unemployment. And then, we could encourage the diversification and emergence of independent media, expand education opportunities, and put pressure on the nations to open themselves up to a greater degree of democratic and personal freedoms.

Creating a free, well educated, and economically modern Middle East will do more damage to terrorism than all of the weapons at our disposal. The same will have to be extended to the rest of the Third World as well.

What do you need the oil for? Is it in order to maintain the wealth and resources imbalances between First World countries and the rest of the world, and thus retain the US's position as top dog exploiter of the planet?

Can you live without plastic? Medicine is impossible, no trucking supplies anywhere, no travel at all. Advanced food storage is out, clothing is out, hell, you can barely build a house without oil...

What are we all going to do, live in a cave and go back to banging the rocks together to make fire?

You know, if you were going to post a second thread about the exact same thing, you could have at least corrected the error that was pointed out to you in the first thread.

Can you live without plastic? Medicine is impossible, no trucking supplies anywhere, no travel at all. Advanced food storage is out, clothing is out, hell, you can barely build a house without oil...

What are we all going to do, live in a cave and go back to banging the rocks together to make fire?

So is that what we did before we became reliant on oil? There are a few more steps in between cavemen and today that you may have skipped.

You know, if you were going to post a second thread about the exact same thing, you could have at least corrected the error that was pointed out to you in the first thread.

Browser error, it posted them at the same time.. Not my fault.. sorry Wish I could delete the first post without the poll

So is that what we did before we became reliant on oil? There are a few more steps in between cavemen and today that you may have skipped.

Well, hrrm.... before World War I. There was still plagues, and infant mortality rate was what, 30%? Yeah, I want that again.

Well, hrrm.... before World War I. There was still plagues, and infant mortality rate was what, 30%? Yeah, I want that again.

Well, if that's the world without oil, then what we should do is make ourselves even more reliant on it, because obviously, if we needed even more oil to survive, we'd have even better lives. And the only way to do that is to invade brown nations, because they have the most oil. And since wars never cost more than we could get out of the nation that we invade, no problem there.

Can you live without plastic? Medicine is impossible, no trucking supplies anywhere, no travel at all. Advanced food storage is out, clothing is out, hell, you can barely build a house without oil...

What are we all going to do, live in a cave and go back to banging the rocks together to make fire?

I can certainly live with less oil consumption per person than the US manages to rack up.

Explain to me how medicine is impossible without oil, and why the electric or steam train no longer work, nor the bicycle, nor the horse, nor shank's pony...

Well, hrrm.... before World War I. There was still plagues, and infant mortality rate was what, 30%? Yeah, I want that again.

About 10% for the US between the turn of the century and the Great War.

I can certainly live with less oil consumption per person than the US manages to rack up.

Explain to me how medicine is impossible without oil, and why the electric or steam train no longer work, nor the bicycle, nor the horse, nor shank's pony...

Um, it would have worked, they wouldn't have changned. I am sure at one time they had square wheels, too..

Fact is, if we all devided our oil consumption by half, it would still be a whopping amount. You may want to go live in a hut and use leaves and pinecones as toilet paper, but me? I want that semi truck to deliver toilet paper to my local grocery store, and I want to drink cold beer, and I'd hate to give up CD's and DVD's. Naah, to go back to the 1890's in technology, I think you might have a bit of a rebellion, even from the EU..

Um, it would have worked, they wouldn't have changned. I am sure at one time they had square wheels, too..

Fact is, if we all devided our oil consumption by half, it would still be a whopping amount. You may want to go live in a hut and use leaves and pinecones as toilet paper, but me? I want that semi truck to deliver toilet paper to my local grocery store, and I want to drink cold beer, and I'd hate to give up CD's and DVD's. Naah, to go back to the 1890's in technology, I think you might have a bit of a rebellion, even from the EU..

And what would you be willing to do to preserve such conveniences? Go to war with a nameless nation that's done you no wrong? Die? Or is it the responsibility of others to concern themselves with the consequences of your continued convenience?

Fact is, if we all devided our oil consumption by half, it would still be a whopping amount.


Yes, it would still be larger per capita than the UK. Last time I checked we in the UK weren't considered to be one of the LDCs. Reduction in oil consumption does not necessitate a return to the technology of the 1890s.

I want that semi truck to deliver toilet paper to my local grocery store, and I want to drink cold beer, and I'd hate to give up CD's and DVD's.

Trucks, CDs, DVDs, toilet paper, refrigeration, alcohol - yup, we somehow manage to have these things in the UK while consuming less than half the amount of oil that the US does per head.

I'm Canadian.
We supply more U.S. oil than the Middle East, and with current barrel prices, we can afford to tap more known resources than ALL of the mid-east countries together.

So, um, no need to bother the brown people anymore.

I'm Canadian.
We supply more U.S. oil than the Middle East...

Not quite - about 17% is Canadian, while about 20% is from the Middle East. Certainly Canada is the largest single oil importer to the US, but it falls just slightly behind the Middle East when viewed as a whole.

And what would you be willing to do to preserve such conveniences? Go to war with a nameless nation that's done you no wrong? Die? Or is it the responsibility of others to concern themselves with the consequences of your continued convenience?

Are you serious? Water pipes are made from plastic. Is that a convenience? Most medicine's could not be made without oil, let alone shipped off to where they were needed. Most clothing could not be manufactured (no elastic). No contact lenses, no glasses, nothing but leather shoes (unless you want wooden shoes), no transit system to speak of, no computers no radio, no television, no video games, no sterile hospitals (back to the bone saws and ether of the civil war -- hooray for us).

Face it, we are addicted to oil.. all of us. We can not possibly avoid it, and just saying that we can will not make it so. We are so dependant on it, if it simply dried up tomorrow, we would be hurled back into another dark age.

Most clothing could not be manufactured (no elastic).


Two words for you: hevea brasiliensis.

Face it, we are addicted to oil.. all of us. We can not possibly avoid it, and just saying that we can will not make it so. We are so dependant on it, if it simply dried up tomorrow, we would be hurled back into another dark age.

Which is why gradually higher prices are a godsend...they force us to seek alternatives rather than remain dependent on oil. Higher prices are forcing us to reduce consumption and increase utilization of alternative fuels.

Now, I'm more of a fan of the free market more than most people, but I feel that a tax based upon engine size may be needed to rein in gasoline demand in the US. Even better, we could refund the tax later whenever someone buy a vehicle of a certain mileage or better.

Water pipes are made from plastic.

Copper?

Copper?

We could use carbon nanotube composities...superior to PVC or other plastic piping in so many ways. The technology is promising, to say the least.

Copper?

Ha! I knew you were going to ask that. And just what are you going to dig the copper up with... bulldozers run on diesel. */me preens smugly* You going to send men into the ground with pickaxes and lanterns -- uh-oh, no lanters - they burn on kerosene. I guess we could start melting pennies..........

Not quite - about 17% is Canadian, while about 20% is from the Middle East. Certainly Canada is the largest single oil importer to the US, but it falls just slightly behind the Middle East when viewed as a whole.


Oops, sorry, meant to say we supply more oil THAN ANYONE in the Middle East.

We DO have the reserves to out-produce all of them, and at current prices, it's affordable to do so.


The point still stands, the U.S. isn't nearly as dependent on Middle Eastern oil as some presume.

We could use carbon nanotube composities...superior to PVC or other plastic piping in so many ways. The technology is promising, to say the least.

but could you build them without ANY oil or oil products? I am thinking that without oil altogether, we would be some hurting puppies.

Ha! I knew you were going to ask that. And just what are you going to dig the copper up with... bulldozers run on diesel. */me preens smugly* You going to send men into the ground with pickaxes and lanterns -- uh-oh, no lanters - they burn on kerosene. I guess we could start melting pennies..........

At which point did I calim that no oil should be consumed? I don't think I did that. I was arguing for a reduction in the amount of oil consumed in the USA... we are able to produce plastics and fuel engines quite well in the UK, whilst still comnsuming less than half the amount of oil per head than the USA.

Oops, sorry, meant to say we supply more oil THAN ANYONE in the Middle East.

We DO have the reserves to out-produce all of them, and at current prices, it's affordable to do so.


The point still stands, the U.S. isn't nearly as dependent on Middle Eastern oil as some presume.


Yes, but even those reservers are going to dry up someday. What then?

we are able to produce plastics and fuel engines quite well in the UK, whilst still comnsuming less than half the amount of oil per head than the USA.

Yes, but did you consider that your whole country is smaller than some of our states? We have a lot further to drive, and the trucking industry burns a lot of fuel. Commutes are longer, and trips to grandma's house are further. So of course we are going to burn more oil, even if we use it at the same rate. How do you fix that?

What do you need the oil for? Is it in order to maintain the wealth and resources imbalances between First World countries and the rest of the world, and thus retain the US's position as top dog exploiter of the planet?


did you read what you wrote?

europe/china/japan..every freakin where uses oil...economies are based on it...but yeah...america's the culprit...your a friggen rascist/bigot blindly anti american...shame on you:mad:

Yes, but did you consider that your whole country is smaller than some of our states? We have a lot further to drive, and the trucking industry burns a lot of fuel. Commutes are longer, and trips to grandma's house are further. So of course we are going to burn more oil, even if we use it at the same rate. How do you fix that?


Percentage of oil consumption used for transportation in the USA: 67% ('about two thirds')

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/Demand_text.htm

Percentage of oil consumption used for transportation in the UK: 67%

http://www.odac-info.org/PeakOilUKConferenceProceedings.htm

did you read what you wrote?

europe/china/japan..every freakin where uses oil...economies are based on it...but yeah...america's the culprit...your a friggen rascist/bigot blindly anti american...shame on you:mad:

Yup. I read it.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/ene_oil_con_percap

Note how all those countries with a greater per capita consumption of oil than the US have vastly smaller populations than the US, and so can effectively be ignored as far as total global consumption goes.

Why does the USA need to consume so much oil per person?

Percentage of oil consumption used for transportation in the USA: 67% ('about two thirds')

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/Demand_text.htm

Percentage of oil consumption used for transportation in the UK: 67%

http://www.odac-info.org/PeakOilUKConferenceProceedings.htm


Okay so if we both use 67%, and we use twice as much oil as you, then clearly we burn twice as much oil as you do per person for transportation, which does not seem unreasonable, considering the land size here. That means that the double of the 33% of oil that remains that we use can easily be accounted for due to the extra amount of petrolium required to make our latex contraceptives ... ... ... :D ... ... wait for it .......

Come on, comic relief's gotta count for something, eh?
hehehehe!

Yes, it would still be larger per capita than the UK. Last time I checked we in the UK weren't considered to be one of the LDCs. Reduction in oil consumption does not necessitate a return to the technology of the 1890s.



Trucks, CDs, DVDs, toilet paper, refrigeration, alcohol - yup, we somehow manage to have these things in the UK while consuming less than half the amount of oil that the US does per head.


my previous post was a bit sarcastic...and somewhat joking...but europe..to answer your question has a way better infrastructure(subways/busses.etc.)then america does.

america is a vast open country,and to get to point a to point b without a car would take forever.

i would love if we had a better transit system,i loathe driving(except my gixxer 750)but for me to get to work..i have to drive..period.

i am not an office worker,i work in the field,so i have to have my truck and tools,but when i am not working,i would love to hop on a bus or train to go where i want.

i agree 100% with americans using less fuel,kinda selfish of me,if we had a decent mass transit system,and all the people could use mass transit to get to and from work,it would reduce demand,which in turn would reduce my costs.

not to mention the benefits for the enviroment

honestly,who wouldnt want to walk out front and jump on a bus or train and not deal with the hassle of driving/insurance/parking etc?

problem is as mentioned...we dont have a decent mass trans system(which i would completely support)and soooo many people live and work in rural areas,it would be difficult if not impossible to include even the minority into mass trans.

that and a boat load of other issues mentioned by other posters...

i dislike bush,but i do agree with him in so far we need an alternative..but that was known 20 years ago,and now he wakes up?:(

I can certainly live with less oil consumption per person than the US manages to rack up.

Explain to me how medicine is impossible without oil, and why the electric or steam train no longer work, nor the bicycle, nor the horse, nor shank's pony...

... where do we get electricity from ? power plants... powered by oil.. and steam trains ? do you really want us using coal over oil ?.

How medicine miht be impossible ? Whats producing all those medicines.. mass manufacutring powered by machines that run on oil or equivalent fossil fuels. How about the plastic disolvable capsels which house those medicines, or the tubes their in.. also produced through machines which rely on oil. Oil is the life blood of the industrial age.

As well as world wide distribution networks... no planes, no cargo ships. We could always go back to the sail ships huh.. you think HIV medicines are slow going to Africa now.. try taking away mass transportation. And lets face it.. you need oil to produce fuel cells and solar power is far from where it needs to be to replace oil. Bio desiel fuel is oil in another form, and unless your straping wind devices to cars and planes.. well your not going anywhere fast.

... where do we get electricity from ? power plants... powered by oil.. and steam trains ? do you really want us using coal over oil ?.

How medicine miht be impossible ? Whats producing all those medicines.. mass manufacutring powered by machines that run on oil or equivalent fossil fuels. How about the plastic disolvable capsels which house those medicines, or the tubes their in.. also produced through machines which rely on oil. Oil is the life blood of the industrial age.

As well as world wide distribution networks... no planes, no cargo ships. We could always go back to the sail ships huh.. you think HIV medicines are slow going to Africa now.. try taking away mass transportation. And lets face it.. you need oil to produce fuel cells and solar power is far from where it needs to be to replace oil. Bio desiel fuel is oil in another form, and unless your straping wind devices to cars and planes.. well your not going anywhere fast.


If only there was some way that we could tap the massive reserves of power contained within the atom.

If only there was some way that we could tap the massive reserves of power contained within the atom.

Even if we could, how would we grease the machine that did it without oil? From what would we make it out of? All the little tubes and flexible bits? The way I see it, we aren't going to start developing a solution to our oil addiction until we are out of oil, and once we are out of oil, we cannot possibly solve our oil addiction.

... where do we get electricity from ? power plants... powered by oil.. and steam trains ? do you really want us using coal over oil ?.

How medicine miht be impossible ? Whats producing all those medicines.. mass manufacutring powered by machines that run on oil or equivalent fossil fuels. How about the plastic disolvable capsels which house those medicines, or the tubes their in.. also produced through machines which rely on oil. Oil is the life blood of the industrial age.

As well as world wide distribution networks... no planes, no cargo ships. We could always go back to the sail ships huh.. you think HIV medicines are slow going to Africa now.. try taking away mass transportation. And lets face it.. you need oil to produce fuel cells and solar power is far from where it needs to be to replace oil. Bio desiel fuel is oil in another form, and unless your straping wind devices to cars and planes.. well your not going anywhere fast.

Medicine uses very little oil aside from transportation. Plus it existed before oil.

One thing that's going to return within a few decades (the problems start well before oil 'runs out' - (do a search for 'Peak Oil', but be prepared for a culture shock...) is the widespread use of manual labour - mainly because it's our only option. We've started transition too late - Oil's looking like it'll peak in the near future (indeed it may have already happened).

Oh, did I mention that oil's used in the creation of fertiliser? :eek:

As for lubricating machines, well, we can probably find a synthetic substitute for that - it's really not a massive problem.

Even if we could, how would we grease the machine that did it without oil? From what would we make it out of? All the little tubes and flexible bits?

Carbon. Brass. Gutta percha.

Medicine uses very little oil aside from transportation. Plus it existed before oil.

One thing that's going to return within a few decades (the problems start well before oil 'runs out' - (do a search for 'Peak Oil', but be prepared for a culture shock...) is the widespread use of manual labour - mainly because it's our only option. We've started transition too late - Oil's looking like it'll peak in the near future (indeed it may have already happened).

Oh, did I mention that oil's used in the creation of fertiliser? :eek:

As for lubricating machines, well, we can probably find a synthetic substitute for that - it's really not a massive problem.

I dont think that anyone is realizing that pretty much everything that exists, including medicine creating machines useses plastic somewhere critial in it's design. Everything would have to be re-invented. It would be a nightmare.

Had to vote for teh last onne because it was just so funny

I dont think that anyone is realizing that pretty much everything that exists, including medicine creating machines useses plastic somewhere critial in it's design. Everything would have to be re-invented. It would be a nightmare.

Yeah, it's a problem, but it's not as big as the transportation one. We need to get that sorted first, otherwise there's no point. Medicine is no good if you can't get somebody to the hospital...