NationStates Jolt Archive

Scottish/Welsh Parliament Why? Except for Labour cementing greater political control north of the border what is its purpose? I know this means for Scots and Welsh you get politicians with the same accent as you but is that the only reason. The Parliaments cost heavily, achieve nothing (of any real value) and create division within the country. There has been a lot of talk about an English assembly, even a Northern assembly, but the referendum failed. To me I can't help thinking, why bother?

Scottish/Welsh Parliament Why? Except for Labour cementing greater political control north of the border what is its purpose? I know this means for Scots and Welsh you get politicians with the same accent as you but is that the only reason. The Parliaments cost heavily, achieve nothing (of any real value) and create division within the country. There has been a lot of talk about an English assembly, even a Northern assembly, but the referendum failed. To me I can't help thinking, why bother?

Because (IM ENTITLED I LIVE IN WALES AND HAVE WELSH PARENTS AND WELSH BORN)
The welsh are all bloody idiots, who insist on being patriotic (Even tho its actually Regionalist as wales isnt a country and hasnt been since we conquered it.) and all " i need welsh parliament cos english are scum!"
or "Fuckai! Next year we seperate from those nazi's!"
basically it comes down to me slapping them and saying "Stop speaking english then." or "Do somethign welsh then."
cos there culture is dead :D

If we consider that devolution has effectively silenced demands for outright independence, it could be argued that devolution has been introduced to prevent Scotland and Wales from breaking away.

However, if you remember that Labour's majority is entirely dependent on Celtic seats, any notes of altruism on Labour's part can be safely banished from your mind.

basically it comes down to me slapping them and saying "Stop speaking english then." or "Do somethign welsh then."
They did do something Welsh.

They got beaten by the English at the weekend.

They don't have to have tuition fees.

Erm...can't think of anything else.

They did do something Welsh.

They got beaten by the English at the weekend.

OOoOhooo PWNED :P

They don't have to have tuition fees.

Erm...can't think of anything else.

Yeah but why can't, whole of great Britain scrap them?

Bah, I though it was a single Scottish and Welsh Parliament, with the official language being Scottish written in Welsh. That would have been fun.

On the topic, I don't see why not. There are local parliaments in Canada's provinces, and States in the US and Mexico have their own legislatures. Welcome to the modern era, I say.

Bah, I though it was a single Scottish and Welsh Parliament, with the official language being Scottish written in Welsh. That would have been fun.

On the topic, I don't see why not. There are local parliaments in Canada's provinces, and States in the US and Mexico have their own legislatures. Welcome to the modern era, I say.

...(blinks) SLAP

Do you believe Britain should become a federalist state, or remain as a devolved government of token power?

What about Northern Ireland?

Welcome to the modern era, I say.

I don't think that federalism is particulary "modern" although I'm sure Roman Proconsuls thought it was.

...(blinks) SLAP
Ouch! *steps on toe*
*runs*

What about Northern Ireland?
What about Northern Ireland?

I don't think that federalism is particulary "modern" although I'm sure Roman Proconsuls thought it was.
Pfft! You're even more behind the times than I thought, then.
*keeps running*

Pfft! You're even more behind the times than I thought, then.
*keeps running*
?

I expect they don't want to be associated with all the English idiots, like those posting here.

What about Northern Ireland?

My gut instinct would be to scrap that assembly as well, although I'm aware that would open another can of worms entirly.

What about Northern Ireland - we suck 3 billion from your economy every year, would you not rather that for yourselves?

What about Northern Ireland - we suck 3 billion from your economy every year, would you not rather that for yourselves?
I see your point.

Back in the 70s and 80s pumping money into NI got more 'bang for your buck' than putting it somewhere safe...like Brighton. Well, that went bang as well didn't it? Not such a good example, but you get the idea.

Now you only get Paisley's ugly mug showing up every now and then.

Worth the money? Not anymore. A few more bombs would liven things up though.

I have a question for all those who are Northern Irish

Would you like to Leave the UK and Unite with the Republic of Ireland?

If you are English you should really be asking yourself, why does it bother me if Scotland and Wales become independent? Could it be that you are still imperialists and could not stand the thought that the Scots and Welsh will no longer have to depend on you anymore?

What's so wrong about having local governments?

My gut instinct would be to scrap that assembly as well, although I'm aware that would open another can of worms entirly.
Well, it's been suspended since 2002 anyway.

I don't mind that so much as I mind NI being effectively ruled by an unelected dictatorship from Westminster.

I have a question for all those who are Northern Irish

Would you like to Leave the UK and Unite with the Republic of Ireland?
Polls have consistently shown a desire to remain within the UK, if that helps.

Personally...stay in the UK. But with more autonomy.

Things have calmed down now; no point in inflaming it all again by joining the Republic.

What's so wrong about having local governments?

We have local governments, town councils etc, my argument is that the regional assemblies serve no purpose they are not needed.

I have a question for all those who are Northern Irish

Would you like to Leave the UK and Unite with the Republic of Ireland?

The problem is that voting on a referendum on the "constitutional issue" of NI will have very little to do with percieved national identity, it will be more about the economy (i.e. cheaper tax rates) which would mean Britain would be stuck with us. Moreover, those in the Republic of Ireland will have to vote as well to allow us to join, it too will be along economic lines and a possible loyalist paramilitary revolt against any decision to allow Ireland to unite.

But I myself am a Republican and want a United Ireland

If you are English you should really be asking yourself, why does it bother me if Scotland and Wales become independent? Could it be that you are still imperialists and could not stand the thought that the Scots and Welsh will no longer have to depend on you anymore?

Ofcourse we are :) we owned there Ass in wars so were entitled :D
If they want fuckin independacne We'll take our cities back. Brick by brick.
Anyone with any English blood comes home with us too ;D (thats like...everyone) so guttin :)

I expect they don't want to be associated with all the English idiots, like those posting here.

Why thankyou. Incidentally, why not afford Wales and Scoylnad full independance, and subsequently observe the financial ruin they incur.

I don't think that federalism is particulary "modern" although I'm sure Roman Proconsuls thought it was.

Uhh...the Romans didn't use Federalism?

Polls have consistently shown a desire to remain within the UK, if that helps.

Personally...stay in the UK. But with more autonomy.

Things have calmed down now; no point in inflaming it all again by joining the Republic.

They've calmed down for how long?

Ooo, we've been doing about the dissolved assembelies in Political Studies! :D (*is such a student*)

The Scotts and Welsh were given their parliaments because Labour saw it as unfair that the people of these respective nations were consistantly voting Labour but were only getting Tory governments (until the election of New Labour in 1997). A referendum was held in 1998 in Scotland (where the parliament has tax-varying powers) and in Wales (a weaker parliament whose referendum was know as "The Little Yes"), both referendums showed a general majority vote for the introduction of the new Parliaments. Since this, the countries have become far more politically representative as their use of the Additional Member System (in place of the continually-criticised Westminster/FPTP system of London) which better represents smaller parties with the use of an additional, or 'top-up' vote.

Basically they couldn't get who they wanted in Parliament, so the nice Laboristas gave them that opportunity :) - however, the general Government of GB still has a major influence over the two nations, and they have a big influence over the politics of the UK (eg. Top-up fees debate).

I have a question for all those who are Northern Irish

Would you like to Leave the UK and Unite with the Republic of Ireland?

This has already been offered to them, a referendum held in the 70s (by the Tory party as an attempt to calm the conflict) asked them if this is what they wanted - the results came back as 99% that were in favour of staying in the UK. However, it is believed that this is because the number of Protestant/British/Unionists surpasses the number of Catholic/Irish/Nationalists by about a half and so many of the latter refused to vote, perhaps on the grounds of plain quietism.

They've calmed down for how long?
Who knows?

I have little knowledge of the Welsh assembly's powers and achievements. mea culpa.

The Scottish parliament, though, despite serial mismanagement and unfortunate happenings (e.g. the building) has been able to deliver well to the people of Scotland. As a Scot, if I went to university in Scotland, I wouldn't have to pay tuition fees. As it is, I study in England, but my sister is studying in Scotland, and having it a lot easier than I am. There is also (thanks to the important Lib Dem contingent in the parliament) free long term personal care for the elderly, meaning that Scottish families do not have to go through some of the pains I've watched English friends go through, becoming faster and faster out of pocket, paying for elderly relatives in care.

On top of this Scottish law has always been different from English law, as has the education system. When the parliaments united back in 17whateveritwas, the legal systems stayed separate. It makes sense to have somewhere to debate Scotland only issues, rather than wasting the time of the (numerically overwhelmingly non-Scottish) parliament in London.

The matter of Scottish Westminster MPs voting on England only matters (like the current [or possibly recent - I haven't heard the news today] education reforms bill) is something I worry about. The way I see it, is that Blair uses the large number of Scottish Labour MPs to pass motions that might defeated, were the only MPs voting those representing English seats. I don't see why my Glasgow MP should have as much say on the future of education in Bristol as someone whose constituents it actually effects.

I hope that this isn't too garbled. I believe the problem is known as the West Lothian question, after the member for West Lothian who first defined it. I could be wrong, though.

(sorry... I know people had got onto Ireland by now, I just wanted to put in my tuppenceworth)

As a Scot, if I went to university in Scotland, I wouldn't have to pay tuition fees.

My mistake, I wouldn't have to pay upfront tuition fees, or top up fees.

To me I can't help thinking, why bother?
My dear boy, I would have thought it was obvious! Always helps to give the natives the illusion of some control. That way they don't get so uppity. Sound colonial management, what!

Ofcourse we are :) we owned there Ass in wars so were entitled :D
If they want fuckin independacne We'll take our cities back. Brick by brick.


I assume with comments like this, that you are ignorant to the many wars fought between England and her Celtic neighbours. I will however, indulge you…What cities would these be that you own and that you can take brick by brick? Maybe we should take your argument a stage further and let the Africans take your cities brick by brick, because cities such as Bristol and Liverpool were wholly built on the profits of slavery.

The problem is that voting on a referendum on the "constitutional issue" of NI will have very little to do with percieved national identity, it will be more about the economy (i.e. cheaper tax rates) which would mean Britain would be stuck with us. Moreover, those in the Republic of Ireland will have to vote as well to allow us to join, it too will be along economic lines and a possible loyalist paramilitary revolt against any decision to allow Ireland to unite.

But I myself am a Republican and want a United Ireland

Really? With a name like 'Shinners'? Would never have guessed. :rolleyes:

Let Northern Ireland do what its people want- tis no concern of anyone elses.

Because (IM ENTITLED I LIVE IN WALES AND HAVE WELSH PARENTS AND WELSH BORN)
The welsh are all bloody idiots, who insist on being patriotic (Even tho its actually Regionalist as wales isnt a country and hasnt been since we conquered it.) and all " i need welsh parliament cos english are scum!"
or "Fuckai! Next year we seperate from those nazi's!"
basically it comes down to me slapping them and saying "Stop speaking english then." or "Do somethign welsh then."
cos there culture is dead :D

Hey, whats wrong with being patriotic, the English are all patriotic so why can't the Welsh be?

It makes sense in theory for the scottish and welsh to sort out their own problems. Decentralized control spreads out the decision-making by location, and different locations have different issues to deal with.

Scottish/Welsh Parliament Why? Except for Labour cementing greater political control north of the border what is its purpose? I know this means for Scots and Welsh you get politicians with the same accent as you but is that the only reason. The Parliaments cost heavily, achieve nothing (of any real value) and create division within the country. There has been a lot of talk about an English assembly, even a Northern assembly, but the referendum failed. To me I can't help thinking, why bother?
I agree. All they're doing is fragmenting the Union, and the new Parliaments (especially the Scottish one) cost so bloody much to build it's politically unviable to abolish them. *sigh* Bloody nationalists.

I agree. All they're doing is fragmenting the Union, and the new Parliaments (especially the Scottish one) cost so bloody much to build it's politically unviable to abolish them. *sigh* Bloody nationalists.

You could probably abolish the Welsh Assembly without much hoo-haa, but sadly the Scottish Parliament (the one that cost over 10 times more than predicted) cannot be dissolved for the foreseeable future.

Ofcourse we are :) we owned there Ass in wars so were entitled :D
If they want fuckin independacne We'll take our cities back. Brick by brick.
Anyone with any English blood comes home with us too ;D (thats like...everyone) so guttin :)


Wales was subjigated in the 1300's.

Scotland is actually the key part to the entire United Kingdom, the act of Union etc, is the uniting of the English Monarchy under the Stuart line.

Aside from Wales, we never "owned their ass" in any war. Scotland still survived as a state after the Battle of Flodden [the only significant Anglo-Scot "war"]

Which cities? You mean the ones like Berwick Upon Tweed which is technically independant? Or Carlise? Or Newcastle, which most of its inhabitants beleive belongs to itself because of the number of times its swopped the border?

Quite simple really, Its slightly devolved, it allows the Scots to do their thing, and the Welsh to do their thing. The problem with the late 1980's/early 1990's was that the Welsh and Scottish Offices weren't functioning properly, much more attention and care was given to England than Wales or Scotland. Devolved Parliament allows Wales and Scotland to make local issues in their geographical area.

Scotland and Wales are nations in their own right. They deserve to have their own political representation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17129-2017104,00.html

this may be of interst to some people.

Hey, whats wrong with being patriotic, the English are all patriotic so why can't the Welsh be?

Not really. But then again, I don't think the Welsh are massively so - it's the Scottish which cause all the problems with 'patriotism', which translates to hating the English. I'm part Scottish and part Welsh and it kind of sickens me how things like racial abuse against the English in Scotland, which is fairly common, is passed off as 'idle banter'. If I went up to lone Scottish person living in England and shouted "Ha! Your fucking useless country accomplished nothing without the English. Why not go gorge on a battered mars bar and inject some skag? I would too if I came from such a shitty country. Nevilles Cross, Flodden, Culloden, har har - you nation of losers!" would it be considered idle banter? No - so why do mainstream political parties in Scotland like the SNP glorify similar stuff directed towards the English as 'patriotism'?

Scottish/Welsh Parliament Why? Except for Labour cementing greater political control north of the border what is its purpose? I know this means for Scots and Welsh you get politicians with the same accent as you but is that the only reason. The Parliaments cost heavily, achieve nothing (of any real value) and create division within the country. There has been a lot of talk about an English assembly, even a Northern assembly, but the referendum failed. To me I can't help thinking, why bother?
You might as well ask "why bother having national governments at all? Why not have one World government instead of spreading power amongst different groups of humanity?"

The answer to both questions is essentially the same (although more obvious when asked in a global context) : people with different traditions, cultures and circumstances like to control their own affairs in ways which best suit their particular needs and aspirations.

You might as well ask "why bother having national governments at all? Why not have one World government instead of spreading power amongst different groups of humanity?"

The answer to both questions is essentially the same (although more obvious when asked in a global context) : people with different traditions, cultures and circumstances like to control their own affairs in ways which best suit their particular needs and aspirations.
Yes but at what point in history do we draw the line. Why not the kingdom of Northumria. Humber to just North of the firth of Forth and Just about coast to coast. The people within share closer traditions than do the Lowland and Highland Scots and it was a Country before the idea of Scotland was ever thought of. It had it own Gov and was one of the centres of learning and religion in europe at the time.
So down with the oppresive English and Oppressive Scots, bring back Northumbria!

As someone with english roots living in scotland i occasionally but not too often hear all this 'banter' and to a greater extent patriotism on the news - has anyone here ever seen 'reporting scotland'? it glorifies scotland quite a lot and i'm not saying theirs anything wrong with that but when it comes to political parties...

I do of course live in an area where support for SNP is strong and where a small badge with a scotland flag and mentioning of 'independece' and 'scotland' in a speech, sentence or paragraph are enough to win voters and this really pisses me off as scotland at least in my opinion was managing fine not having its own parliament and doesn't really need to be independent as its already a nation in it's own right. If Scotland and Wales have their own parliaments and as the population minorities surely England should have its own parliament as the majority.:rolleyes: