NationStates Jolt Archive

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.

Hell hath no limit
Nor is circumscribed in one self place
For where we are is Hell
And where Hell is,
There we shall ever be.

(Marlowe's Mephistopheles)

BTW, if you want to leave Hell, there is a way. But you don't get there by walking out.

Hell hath no limit
Nor is circumscribed in one self place
For where we are is Hell
And where Hell is,
There we shall ever be.

(Marlowe's Mephistopheles)

BTW, if you want to leave Hell, there is a way. But you don't get there by walking out.

"A witty saying proves nothing."
-Voltaire

"A witty saying proves nothing."
-Voltaire

And can everything be proven?

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.
Hell, as described as the Ring of Fire, is the final destination of Satan and his followers.

so it's Satan's Punnishment.

Hell, as described as the Ring of Fire, is the final destination of Satan and his followers.

so it's Satan's Punnishment.
K, Always Thought It Was Satans Kingdom. Thanks! Now I Can Debate With Christians Better! Woo Hoo!

I'm not entirely sure that Satan is mentioned with reference to Hell in the Bible, the apocrypha, yes, and the Talmud, but not the Bible.

Hell is never specified in the Bible. I always thought it was both Satan's kingdom and his punishment, he's an angel condemned to torture others forever, not exactly a nice thing.

It's been ages, but IIRC Hell as such isn't mentioned in the bible. Heck, Satan as we know him isn't mentioned. There is an adversary mentioned, but he isn't named. I think being cast into the outer darkness is mentioned. I'm behind on my reading again, looks like. :)

In other words, I'd check further.


Love the marlowe quote, though.

Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.


while "Satan" isn't mentioned directly, you have Hades, the Dragon, the Serpent, all figures that throughout the bible has been related to the Great Corrupter.

Behold: The reason people are atheists:

http://objectiveministries.org/mallmission/

These people are crazy. Nontheless, the people of the Jeigan Federation follow the Russian Orthodox church.

Hell is Satan's prison. This world is his kingdom, until God returns to take it back.

It's both. You aren't activley sent to hell, as someone who doesn't accept God's forgiveness you are headed that way and you have to actively turn yourself away from it. It is his kingdom, the only place where he has anything like authority, and also his prison, as he can't escape it.

It's both. You aren't activley sent to hell, as someone who doesn't accept God's forgiveness you are headed that way and you have to actively turn yourself away from it. It is his kingdom, the only place where he has anything like authority, and also his prison, as he can't escape it.
I don't think Satan is in hell. Why the heck would he want to be there?

I think he's here on earth trying to take as many down with him as possible before Christ returns.

That's the way it was explained it me.

It's not like Satan has "authority" in hell. Hell does it's job automatically.

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.

If your goal here isn't enlightenment, but merely to have fuel for debate, why would anyone want to "help" you?

If your goal here isn't enlightenment, but merely to have fuel for debate, why would anyone want to "help" you?

so you feel Christianity can't withstand any scrutiny? just wondering how you justify what you said.

so you feel Christianity can't withstand any scrutiny? just wondering how you justify what you said.
would you give a gun and bullets to someone whom you know is going to use it to rob another person?

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.however, since I do not know the subject of this 'debate' I'm willing to give Ritlina the benefit of the doubt.

Hell hath no limit
Nor is circumscribed in one self place
For where we are is Hell
And where Hell is,
There we shall ever be.

(Marlowe's Mephistopheles)

BTW, if you want to leave Hell, there is a way. But you don't get there by walking out.

There is no way out of hell.
Hell is both Satan's kingdom and his prision, he embraced it after his outcast

The reason Hell isn't mentioned in the bible is because it isn't a concept of the original faith. It evolved into it during the dark ages.


Really. They just make shit up as they go along...

I've misplaced my electric Bible so can't give quotes right now.

Hell is right now death or the grave. When the Apostle's Creed says Jesus "decended into hell" they are saying he was dead and in the grave. Then at the trumpet of God we will all rise in order of death for judgement.

The kingdom of Satan right now is the Earth. In the end, he and his followers will be thrown into the "lake of fire". (What most people imagine when the word "hell" is used.) They will be consumed and will be no more.

There is a question as to if we will all burn a bit. There is a quote that says something like, our sins are like straw and the rest is like gold and in the end the straw will be burned away and we'll be purified. I know that's far from exact but it's the idea.

So we are living in Satan's kindom right now. It is for us to be "insurgents" against his armies. In the end the insurgents will win but they will take massive losses.

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.

Hell is were Lucifer (Satin) was banished by god however Hell has an entrance but no exits meaning those who are evil go into hell and scince they can't get out Satin can do what he pleases with them. All in all Hell is Satins Kingdom prison. Its a bit like house arest you can still rule your house but you can't leave it.

K, Always Thought It Was Satans Kingdom. Thanks! Now I Can Debate With Christians Better! Woo Hoo!

the whole satans kingdom thing, you are probably confusing church of satan with christianity. they would describe it as a kingdom

but they dont make sense as a whole, in order to believe satan they have to beleive there is a god, and satan is the evil of god and they are pretty much worshiping to be punished.:confused:

The devil who is also refered to as lucifer is a fallen angel who was cast out of heaven for being proud:

"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." (Revelation 12:7-9)

the term devil is also used to refer to the demon who rules the under world or hell, im not sure if he is supposed to be lucifer or just another devil.

in english the term devil was derived from the latin word for "slanderer". in some other languages it was derived from the word for angel.

I just found something quite interesting-most religions have a devil, an evil opposing force to god but hinduism doesnt.

The follow are not my beliefs, simply the myths I have collected regarding a popular religion.


My understanding is as follows:

God created angels, with essentially a caste system. The highest rank were arch angels, 5 of them, one of which was Lucifer. The angels were told to bow down only to God. Later, God created man, and called for the angels to bow unto him. Lucifer refused. His reason for doing so is contested between religions, but is either A)He was prideful, and would not humble himself to an inferior being, or B)God had commanded him otherwise, and he felt it was wrong to bow to anyone other than God.

Lucifer was cast out of heaven to wander the earth. He tempted Eve, and as a result, mankind gained the knowledge of good and evil - or lost their innocence, depending on which side you take. Man was cast from the garden, and angels were posted as sentries against him. Thus begins human history.

A minister friend once explained it this way. Satan is a hateful creature, and is in an eternal battle against God and all that is righteous. He knows that he will not win this battle, and does not attempt to. Instead, his goal is to hurt God by turning as many of his children away from him as possible. On the day of Apocalypse, Satan will be banished to hell for 1,000 years, and God's kingdom will be established on Earth. Golden city in Israel, all that... After this period, Satan will be called up, judged, and destroyed. After that is unclear, but the general idea is that the rift caused by Satan in the garden will be healed, and mankind will be innocent once again.


True Satanists, not just those who parody Christianity, believe that God created man, gave him free will, but left him ignorant. Satan revealed the nature of things to man, and thereby freed him. In time, mankind will be as powerful as God himself, and Gods in their own right. The corruption of souls is nothign more than leading people into the light of thier own being.

Christians believe the opposite. God created man, and wanted him to be happy. Satan tempted Eve and burdened us with the knowledge of things, and the way of the world. Man is a subordinate being to God, and is humbled to be so. The corruption of the soul is leading someone from the light into darkness, through their own faults of character -- pride, vanity, etc.

the whole satans kingdom thing, you are probably confusing church of satan with christianity. they would describe it as a kingdom

but they dont make sense as a whole, in order to believe satan they have to beleive there is a god, and satan is the evil of god and they are pretty much worshiping to be punished.:confused:Where's Big Jim when you need him?

Dude, like most knee jerk christians you know jack about satanism. For one the whole 'evil' thing is a construct of christianity. I'm no expert really, Big Jim P is who you want to talk to (if he's still around) to get the straight scoop on satanism. But I do know it's not anything like the 'devil whorshippers' you see in B movies.

My understanding is as follows:

God created angels, with essentially a caste system. The highest rank were arch angels, 5 of them, one of which was Lucifer. The angels were told to bow down only to God. Later, God created man, and called for the angels to bow unto him. Lucifer refused. His reason for doing so is contested between religions, but is either A)He was prideful, and would not humble himself to an inferior being, or B)God had commanded him otherwise, and he felt it was wrong to bow to anyone other than God.

Lucifer was cast out of heaven to wander the earth. He tempted Eve, and as a result, mankind gained the knowledge of good and evil - or lost their innocence, depending on which side you take. Man was cast from the garden, and angels were posted as sentries against him. Thus begins human history.

A minister friend once explained it this way. Satan is a hateful creature, and is in an eternal battle against God and all that is righteous. He knows that he will not win this battle, and does not attempt to. Instead, his goal is to hurt God by turning as many of his children away from him as possible. On the day of Apocalypse, Satan will be banished to hell for 1,000 years, and God's kingdom will be established on Earth. Golden city in Israel, all that... After this period, Satan will be called up, judged, and destroyed. After that is unclear, but the general idea is that the rift caused by Satan in the garden will be healed, and mankind will be innocent once again.


True Satanists, not just those who parody Christianity, believe that God created man, gave him free will, but left him ignorant. Satan revealed the nature of things to man, and thereby freed him. In time, mankind will be as powerful as God himself, and Gods in their own right. The corruption of souls is nothign more than leading people into the light of thier own being.

Christians believe the opposite. God created man, and wanted him to be happy. Satan tempted Eve and burdened us with the knowledge of things, and the way of the world. Man is a subordinate being to God, and is humbled to be so. The corruption of the soul is leading someone from the light into darkness, through their own faults of character -- pride, vanity, etc.
All of this is derived from the Talmud and (possibly) Islamic sources rather than the Bible though: it isn't contradicted by the two lines of Revelations quoted above, but they hardly confirm most of it, either.
(The Church of Satan makes a big deal of worshipping the late Anton LaVey rather than any Christian myth figures, btw: the lost planet is dead right about that one.)

It's been ages, but IIRC Hell as such isn't mentioned in the bible. Heck, Satan as we know him isn't mentioned. There is an adversary mentioned, but he isn't named. I think being cast into the outer darkness is mentioned. I'm behind on my reading again, looks like. :)

In other words, I'd check further.


Love the marlowe quote, though.

Hell is mentioned in the New Testament but not in the Old Testament. The hebrews beleived in a universal afterlife called 'Sheol' where everyone, good or evil, went. It wasn't punishment or reward, it merely was; think of it as a giant, underground tomb-complex.

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.

Hell is a place for all those who rebell against God. The first of which was Satan (or as he was previously knonw, lucifer)

why did they change his name? is it like a dishonored samurai is called a ronin or something like that?

why did they change his name? is it like a dishonored samurai is called a ronin or something like that?

Names were a lot more meaningful back then. It isnt unheard of for someone to change their name after a major change in who they are. See Saul's transformation into Paul for example.

If your goal here isn't enlightenment, but merely to have fuel for debate, why would anyone want to "help" you?


Supporting ignorance is hardly admirable, that's why. I would gladly give descriptions of the scientific method or the modern theory of evolution to someone if they wanted to debate me on it.

why did they change his name? is it like a dishonored samurai is called a ronin or something like that?
Not quite: Lucifer is Latin for "Lightbringer" and somebody was concerned that he might get mistaken for Christ with a name like that.

Hell is a Zoroastrian invention the Christians stole to scare people into believing :)
Now that such things are frowned upon Christians say
"Oh no the Whole thing with the crusades, we didnt mean it. That was the OLD Church, we're better."
"Gays?"
"SHOULD BURN IN HELL!!!!!"
:) so seriously have a cookie.
Really...take it and run before i smite you.

Supporting ignorance is hardly admirable, that's why. I would gladly give descriptions of the scientific method or the modern theory of evolution to someone if they wanted to debate me on it.
You shouldn't bother: they'll just ignore it.

You shouldn't bother: they'll just ignore it.


But at least I'd give them a chance instead of just getting a headache from their faux-science.

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.

you keep up the debating with christians... those god-damned people were the beginnings of spiritual misinterpretation..

i still don't get that "would i give a loaded gun to a murderer line". how does that even relate to this discussion?

I just found something quite interesting-most religions have a devil, an evil opposing force to god but hinduism doesnt.


Though being a hindu myself, i'm nothing like an expert on the religion.

The reason hinduism doesn't have an evil opposing force is mainly because in hinduism life itself is technically the "prison" (not literally - this is just in comparison to the other religions), from which, through good life you grow through, and ascend from, finally achieving "mokshah" freedom/ truth - in many senses. And so there is no need for a punishment, or punisher.

There is also a trinity, the creator, the preserver, and the destroyer - where none are evil, and all are good - playing vital roles in the universe. So the destroyer isn't feared or hated.

However, in hindu mythology/ legend there are demons/ "evil" people that have threatened Gods/Heroes in their mortal forms - like Rama and Ravana (the last "a" isn't pronounced here). Or Krishna ("a" pronounced) and the King.

Off topic, and not altogether reliable - but hopefully informative.

The reason Hell isn't mentioned in the bible is because it isn't a concept of the original faith. It evolved into it during the dark ages.


Really. They just make shit up as they go along...

Wrong

Hell is found both in the old and new testement

Many go there - "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it" Matthew 7:13

A place of torment - "The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades ... he cried and said 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'" Luke 16:23-24

Everlasting punishment - "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

Prepared for the devil – "And then He will say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Matthew 25:41

See more here http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/hell.htm

i still don't get that "would i give a loaded gun to a murderer line". how does that even relate to this discussion?
Because saying anything that implies that any part of the Bible may in anyway deviate from THE TRUTH about the nature of the universe is morally equivalent to machine gunning a children's hospital.

why did they change his name? is it like a dishonored samurai is called a ronin or something like that?

Lucifer = Lightbringer. Satan = Adversary. Satanael = Adversary of God. Samael = Venom of God.

Wrong

Hell is found both in the old and new testement

Many go there - "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it" Matthew 7:13

A place of torment - "The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades ... he cried and said 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'" Luke 16:23-24

Everlasting punishment - "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

Prepared for the devil – "And then He will say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Matthew 25:41

See more here http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/hell.htm

Funny, you only quote New Testament verses. What happened to the Old Testament?

This Isn't A Christianity Beater Topic, But I Just Want To Know, According To Christianity, Is Hell Satan's Kingdom, Or Satan's Prison? As Most Of You Know, I Am An Avid Athiest, But I Just Want To Know This So I Can More Easily Debate With Christians.

A religion is not a set of rules like a computer program. We are not a bunch of mindless morons who sway in time to the cool grooves of some imagined god.

Look, here is the deal. Get a wife (or a husband). Love him/her. Get some children, and love them. Try the best you can to lead your family to the best it can be... try and teach them some values, and some good things that will make them better people, and give them a better chance. When you start actively doing this, you start to notice that churches are full of people who just want to love and care for, and lead their children to a better life. And, of course, if you want to do well, you surround yourself by good people, people who support you. People who care. And you start going to church. Perhaps you don't believe in what you are doing, yet, but you go anyway, because it makes your family seem so much healthier. They come to the dinner table to eat, they "turn the other cheek" in bad situations. They seem so much better able to face the evils of the world, because they have a reason, logical or not, to behave well.

And this is where it starts to get into you. At first, you are just going to church because it makes your family so much better. You start going to the events, because you really start to like the other church members, and realize that they are the kind of people you want your family around. The community lifts you up, and makes you stronger. Pretty soon, you are becoming a leader in one of the church events, and you develop a responsibility to your community that you, at first, leaned upon. You get a feeling of rightness, of real belonging. But then you realize it is more than a feeling. It is more than a church with four walls and a door.

I think that if I did not believe in God, I would still go to church. In fact, I would say that when I started going to church for the health of my family, I did not even know what God was, let alone believe in any higher power. But it is so good for your family, and it is good for you, or at least it was good for/to me. I dont worry about where Hell is, or what is in what book about what nonsense. I believe in God because I know it is right, and because it know it is real, and I do that because of the way it makes me feel, and how it makes my family healthy and strong. Marriage doesnt mean much without God. Children do not mean much, either.

I dont know what to tell you, or how to convince you. In fact, I know that I could never convince you of anything. I do, however, know that it changed my life, and made me stronger. I love the person I have become, and would never go back.

Wrong

Hell is found both in the old and new testement

Many go there - "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it" Matthew 7:13

A place of torment - "The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades ... he cried and said 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'" Luke 16:23-24

Everlasting punishment - "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

Prepared for the devil – "And then He will say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Matthew 25:41

See more here http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/hell.htm

Oh, and I checked the Old Testament references on the link, they were all translated as 'grave' rather than 'hell' in the New International Version of the Bible. That's what you get for relying on the King James Version.

Let me offer some example:

An immoral woman ... her feet go down to death,
Her steps lay hold of hell. (Prov 5:5)

5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps lead straight to the grave. (Prov 5:5)

Link to NIV passage (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=5&version=31)

But he [who turns aside to the shameless woman]
does not know that the dead are there,
That her guests are in the depths of hell. (Prov 9:18)

But little do they know that the dead are there,
that her guests are in the depths of the grave.

Link to NIV passage (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=9&version=31)


... who have gone down to hell
with their weapons of war. (Ezekiel 32:27)

who went down to the grave
with their weapons of war

Link to NIV passage (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=32&version=31)

The way of life winds upward for the wise,
That he may turn away from hell below (Prov 15:24)

The path of life leads upward for the wise
to keep him from going down to the grave.

Link to NIV passage (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=15&version=31)

This would seem to support my claim that Hell only arrived with the New Testament.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/buddyjesus.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/buddyjesus.jpg

:p

Hell is Satan's prison. This world is his kingdom, until God returns to take it back.
Did God lose the keys or something?

Because saying anything that implies that any part of the Bible may in anyway deviate from THE TRUTH about the nature of the universe is morally equivalent to machine gunning a children's hospital.
I'd say more of a childrens orphanage but honestly it's only a technicality.