NationStates Jolt Archive

Im from Denmark, a really really bad thing to be at the moment, if you relate to the middle east, and i am completly shocked at how Jyllands-Posten (the newspaper which first posted the pictures) has been criticised.
Now i want to explain what those pictures mean, and why they were put in the newspapers.
First of all the most important thing in Denmark is the freedom of speech. It goes about everything else, to some extent we might have to much, but this is the reason why the pictures were pressed in the first placed. Secondly it was made because a danish guy was producing a satirical book about islam, and needed some pictures, but everyone was to afriad that anything would happen to them to make it. Therefore they posted a competition for people to send in drawings of Muhammed, as a joke, not to be taken seriously. They posted 11 funny drawings, and, unfortunatly, one really bad, which shouldnt have been posted. This one picture is a reason why i would have been mad as a muslim, but burning down danish buildings in the middle east? how can anyone react in such a way?
What i would like is to get some answers which argument for the strong reactions from muslim countries, such as the trade embargoes, because i would like to get a bigger insight and not just be told by the danish government and news that this is going to far.
So my quistion is: How come anyone eract this strongly on a satirical drawing?

Well, first of all, before this thread gets inundated with the same old garbage, let me take a moment to criticize the Danish sense of humor:

Offensive or not, those cartoons sucked. I've seen all twelve. The one where they are in Heaven and being told there are no virgins left was mildly amusing. The rest were awful.

If you're going to offend people, do it with some style. Make me laugh and feel guilty for laughing. Forbidden laughter is the best kind.

People are getting hurt and even killed. Buildings are getting torched. And for what? Second-rate comics. That's the real offense.

Well, if a drawing portrays something you hold in highest esteem as something despicable, it's only natural to get a little offended.

Some people, though, are just nutjobs.

I agree with you on the humor point, I saw the cartoons and I didn't think any of them were funny at all, I just thought they were stupid. But oh well, to each his own.

As far as I understand,, at least ideally the muslims have a whole can't portay their prophet (muhammed I think is the right spelling/word) In anything. So it would be similar to desecrating a cross to a christian,, forcing an athiest to recite some god loving passage and etc. Essentially against their core beliefs.

But personally, I find it funny how they use those same freedom of expression laws to mock and otherwise insult those not part of their religion, ignoring those person's personal beliefs, and systems thereof that may find their opinions offensive,, etc. etc. etc. The main fallacy with this idiotic pc (politically correct) bs thats going around lately
r_f

What I find amusing is that this forum is full of rude, self-righteous atheists and polite Christians when usually it's the other way around.

ah well people don't get other peoples sense of humour

I struggle with american humerous things sometimes as i'm sure they do with our british comedy (my favourite instance of this is that a show called coupling which on the bbc when shown in america had resonably good results, an american tv firm bought the rights to make an american version and removed all the references to sex, this meant taking out all the jokes, therefore it bombed so badly) and we don't even have that different a culture (admitadly its different but we have the same language and things). however danish (or german or wherever) people will probably have considerably different jokes and different sense of humour.

so maybe its funny to the danish.........

or maybe not

Jyllandsposten did not make an informed debate about freedom of speech, if they intented to they did so amateurishly, since there has been no proper follow up articles and the general media picture in Denmark since then has been dominated by the radical view points of Abu Laban, Jesper Langballe, and all the other "kind" people hell-bend on making the division "them" vs. "us." Nobody remembers the children's book, or the controversy attached to it... and as such Jyllandsposten hasn't done a very good job.

I do not condone anybody burning down our embassies (one of my friends was attached to the syrian one), but you need to understand that this is as much a matter of internal policy in the middle east, as our debate it is here in Denmark. Somebody are getting cheap polical points by adopting positions of confrontation. That goes for Al-Aqsa and it goes for Louise Frevent who sent on the SMS suggesting we boycott all muslem stores in Denmark. Lets get our minds around that, and then we solve the diplomatic dispute moderate to moderate as men of intelligence - moderates can build brigdes, radicals can't.
May I use this as an opportunity to ask people to use their right use their brains before using their right to use their mouths?

I mean, so far I've received 2 messages suggesting I boycott my local SaudiArabian chocolate supplier because he's arab, 3 suggesting I buy an extra pizza and smile more than usual down at the local kebab house because the owner is likely an arab, and 2 suggesting I join in burning the Koran on Rådhuspladsen (sent one of those back suggesting he turn his dictionary on, and another inviting the sender to join me in burning today's issue of Jyllandsposten instead (ok, but he starting being an idiot and nobody's perfect :))), and 1 suggesting we send all muslems to the moon; and these are just examples of the debate climate. Cool down, look at the facts and think straight - apply the same rights to those who express themselves as you do to yourself, but know the facts - the proper facts that is, not the simple black-and-white version.

As to the embargo, what's so wrong about that? When the french piss you off, you stop buying french wine, when the americans make you angry you boycott McDonalds... an embargo is an expression, and the people making the embargo has as much right to put us on the embargo wagon, as we have to make fun of them. As it ought to be if our value "freedom of speech" is to have any value at all and I for one don't like the interpretation that runs: "everybody has the right to freedom of speech, especially me, and nobody else..."

EDIT: Agreed, on behalf of danish humor I am offended. We can do MUCH better than that!

But personally, I find it funny how they use those same freedom of expression laws to mock and otherwise insult those not part of their religion, ignoring those person's personal beliefs, and systems thereof that may find their opinions offensive,, etc. etc. etc. The main fallacy with this idiotic pc (politically correct) bs thats going around lately
r_f


This doesn't actually make sense. What are you trying to say here?

I'm going to post two articles from the German "Spiegel" again (hopefully for the last time) which illustrate my point of view quite well. But I have to say that I want people who commit crimes (as some protesters did) to be tried, no matter what. If they want to claim mitigating circumstances, let the courts decide.

One is in English, the other in German (but my hope is that the Danes here may have picked up a little).
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/debatte/0,1518,399198,00.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,399175,00.html

This doesn't actually make sense. What are you trying to say here?


rrrm.. sorry to make less sense than normal. <note - All insescicalities[this word included] will be retroactively blamed to beer consumptions, irregardless to actuall drunkenn effects felt>

Essentially I think I'm making a point about how many middle eastern cultures use the idea of freedom of speach in more 'civilisized' (take the meaning whatever ya want,, refering to the 'first world countries' eg. us, canada, eu, austrialia area etc. and etc.) to mock and otherwise insult others, yet the moment the SAME freedom of speach is turned against them get all insulted and burn down embassies.
Basically the good ole double standard argument. If we expect x, than everyone expects x, yet we dont need to hold ourselves to standard x, because we're right and their wrong (adapted to suite topic at hand)
r_f//mh

I'm going to post two articles from the German "Spiegel" again (hopefully for the last time) which illustrate my point of view quite well. But I have to say that I want people who commit crimes (as some protesters did) to be tried, no matter what. If they want to claim mitigating circumstances, let the courts decide.

One is in English, the other in German (but my hope is that the Danes here may have picked up a little).
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/debatte/0,1518,399198,00.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,399175,00.html

Hrmm, so according to this article since my nationality is danish I am automatically responsible for putting the government in charge, and happy that the government is making the policy it is? Nice! And there was I speaking out against my government, and hanging from the lamp poles putting up posters for the opposition.

I really had expected better from Der Spiegel.

As far as I understand,, at least ideally the muslims have a whole can't portay their prophet (muhammed I think is the right spelling/word) In anything. So it would be similar to desecrating a cross to a christian,, forcing an athiest to recite some god loving passage and etc. Essentially against their core beliefs.

I'm an atheist and if someone forced me to recite a bible passage i wouldnt care in the least, apart from the small invonvenience, its not like it means anything to me.

As far as I understand,, at least ideally the muslims have a whole can't portay their prophet (muhammed I think is the right spelling/word) In anything. So it would be similar to desecrating a cross to a christian,, forcing an athiest to recite some god loving passage and etc. Essentially against their core beliefs.

But personally, I find it funny how they use those same freedom of expression laws to mock and otherwise insult those not part of their religion, ignoring those person's personal beliefs, and systems thereof that may find their opinions offensive,, etc. etc. etc. The main fallacy with this idiotic pc (politically correct) bs thats going around lately
r_f
Well the images thing is not in thier holy texts it is what some one has decided and is how the religion is practised. There are indeed some ancient representations of the Prophet.
And the ban only extend to believers anyway as the rest of us are heading for hell anyway. It's like a Jewish person protesting outside a pork butcher, the rules are for belivers only.
Saying that people should be able to peacfully protest if they wish.
Those calling for murder etc in the UK however should be arrested and charged.

sad that Jyllands-Posten doesn't know that it is allowed to use the head before the mouth ... and that it only is Free spreech and not Forced Spreech ...

i mean ... it aren't a lightning bolt from a clear sky that some muslims have gone into a rage

Hrmm, so according to this article since my nationality is danish I am automatically responsible for putting the government in charge, and happy that the government is making the policy it is?
I don't think it really said that.

It doesn't talk about the Danish political climate in a particularly reasonable way, but then, I really haven't heard anything reasonable from anyone in this matter. I think Spiegel's point was to present the opinion of the other side for a balance.

But if you really didn't like it, you might want to torch the German embassy? I hear it's all the rage these days. :D

I'm sick of this! Can't anyone, muslims as well as Europeans/Americans, see how ridiculously this is?! Burning buildings and threaten with terror because of what? Cartoons!

And why these cartoons? Their prophet have been made fun of many times! Is it because tiny little Denmark is an easy target? Is the middle east really like the big bully beating up the class nerd?

What's the population of Denmark?
If all this fuss had not been made how many people would have seen the cartoons?
Now they are all over the world and nearly every one has seen them. Shows a lack of understanding of how the real world works.

I'm sick of this! Can't anyone, muslims as well as Europeans/Americans, see how ridiculously this is?! Burning buildings and threaten with terror because of what? Cartoons!
I don't think it really is about the cartoons. It's a combination of things, and I don't think Denmark has any real significance in this.

This paper is just like dozens of other cheap boulevard crap-papers around Europe, pondering to whatever populist ideas come up. The issue for Europe is really why going on a confrontational course with the Muslim community is one of those ideas.

For the Muslim world however, it's the same issue they've had for decades: How to get this extremism under control. There is many factors in this, and a solution can only be a complex, multi-tiered one.

But for the time being, this thing is just the catalyst for everyone to let out their frustration with the way things are going.

Essentially I think I'm making a point about how many middle eastern cultures use the idea of freedom of speach in more 'civilisized' (take the meaning whatever ya want,, refering to the 'first world countries' eg. us, canada, eu, austrialia area etc. and etc.) to mock and otherwise insult others, yet the moment the SAME freedom of speach is turned against them get all insulted and burn down embassies.
Basically the good ole double standard argument. If we expect x, than everyone expects x, yet we dont need to hold ourselves to standard x, because we're right and their wrong (adapted to suite topic at hand)
r_f//mh

ok yes; best example of this is the daily publication of anti-semitic cartoons in practically all arab newspapers.

Ultimately, it is moderate muslims who will suffer the most because of all this. Non-muslims who were initially opposed to the publication of the cartoons are now getting a multitude of extremist images plastered all over their news coverage every day.

Religion is not an excuse for behaving like idiots. Jyllandsposten were brave to take the blame away from a serious man trying to do a good job. But this man was held back by silly religious rules.
What we see in the middle east are their usual scapegoat politics, and the excuse is islam. Well these last years it is becoming harder and harder to say I respect islam and really mean it.

Only oppressors fall to the sound of the free voice, free people fear it but they will not fall.

Have a nice day folks..

Well, first of all, before this thread gets inundated with the same old garbage, let me take a moment to criticize the Danish sense of humor:

Offensive or not, those cartoons sucked. I've seen all twelve. The one where they are in Heaven and being told there are no virgins left was mildly amusing. The rest were awful.

If you're going to offend people, do it with some style. Make me laugh and feel guilty for laughing. Forbidden laughter is the best kind.

People are getting hurt and even killed. Buildings are getting torched. And for what? Second-rate comics. That's the real offense.

I totally agree with you, plus it wasn't really the appropriate time for such thing really, I mean war and terrorism and everything...

Im from Denmark, a really really bad thing to be at the moment, if you relate to the middle east, and i am completly shocked at how Jyllands-Posten (the newspaper which first posted the pictures) has been criticised.
Now i want to explain what those pictures mean, and why they were put in the newspapers.
First of all the most important thing in Denmark is the freedom of speech. It goes about everything else, to some extent we might have to much, but this is the reason why the pictures were pressed in the first placed. Secondly it was made because a danish guy was producing a satirical book about islam, and needed some pictures, but everyone was to afriad that anything would happen to them to make it. Therefore they posted a competition for people to send in drawings of Muhammed, as a joke, not to be taken seriously. They posted 11 funny drawings, and, unfortunatly, one really bad, which shouldnt have been posted. This one picture is a reason why i would have been mad as a muslim, but burning down danish buildings in the middle east? how can anyone react in such a way?
What i would like is to get some answers which argument for the strong reactions from muslim countries, such as the trade embargoes, because i would like to get a bigger insight and not just be told by the danish government and news that this is going to far.
So my quistion is: How come anyone eract this strongly on a satirical drawing?


"Well we just need to line up the infidels that broke the law and stone them, after that we can go back to sleep."

It is largely the sentiment 'satire' as implemented in preelizibethian england up past the reformation was used to be political in nature, designed to attack individuals in politically tense or dangerous periods. If calling someone chubby or dough boy all the time effects their confidence then wha of making fun of religion. For peopple to say to christians like jesus was a sellout cause he went on to heaven cause he didn't like the press or the christian church is mostly the roman empire dogma rather then actual pagan christian gnostic beleif as was christ sorta stupid. anyway the point is that throwing up the swastikas or segregating a community without permission is exactly how propagando eveolved tlooke dhwat is said to ahve happened to the jews and other groups during wwwII due to nazi german propaganda against jews it is the seed in the mind.

A contest to make fun of muslims? was this in the weekly runoff of make fun of world religions? Hi My name is Frank I'm a christian I follow the roman empire and worship a bull named amen and the guy that the romans killed for helping people and stealing the spotlight, plus the guy was anti media woudln't perofrm for satan, told his fans to f*ck off, and they loved the guy, if he would of had a guitar can you imagine what him and hendrix could have pulled off.

HI I'm Len I'm a jew, I am almost a nihilist except we call our nothing Y---- W---H we forgot the name cause only a couple people gathered together every year and wisphered it , sadly we forgot that language.. almost but we think we know it again, we can't be 100% sure but we have faith. Oh have you met father praja the zionist he was the ones that taught the Arabs that suicide bombing was effective, my people oin isreal were the first terrorist of the state, but we anint't subnationals now, ask arial sharon.

Hi, I'm a muslim we like to think we are right so much so we don't go back willingly, this has helped us not se see our A$zs get f*cked in the middle east by craved US and UK and some well most of the US controlled world soilders just waiting to get a peice of US. It is said that some of our folk drove some planes into the WTC but everyone knows we don't have an airforce in the US, we are not sure who did it though, but we doubt it was the US because they don't seem to have an airforce in the US either, as they seem to be strained due to global domination programs, especially acting as interim airforce of Iraq. Muslims come in three major branches Shitite Sunni and Terrorist , we belive the terrorists may have evovled from dervishes, don't ask me why it is what happens when you combine religion spinning in circles and explosives.

Hi, I'm Zen a buddist my parents named me after Zen buddism our last name isn't buddah though. We are allot like the Jews except that we aim to be at peace and we take it, cause we feel that our own pain is our guide. We arn't a very humourous religion but the hardcore drink their own urine and meditate at times till they die and see the colours of the universe, odly rarely do we get commited, there is one major exception to this though and it is called Tibet.

----------e tc.. etc.. tired yet
Bad taste to make fun of a religion, why not stick to politicians everyone hates them.

Oh and if you are danish in syria remeber to wear an american flag on your shoulder

ok yes; best example of this is the daily publication of anti-semitic cartoons in practically all arab newspapers.There is anti-semitic cartoons published in most Israel newspapers too

So it would be similar to desecrating a cross to a christian,, forcing an athiest to recite some god loving passage and etc.
No, it's not similar to forcing an atheist to recite some god loving passages, because that would involve doing something directly to the atheist, whereas these pictures were published in a newspaper which no Muslim is obliged to read (and probably none of the protestors in the Middle East have read). The protestors are screaming about what other people in another country are saying amongst themselves, and that is an unacceptable infringement on their free speech.

If someone were to post these cartoons on the wall of a mosque in Damascus or Beirut, that would be inflammatory, but to be outraged by their appearance in a foreign newspaper in a small secular/Christian country is hypersensitivity gone mad. If westerners reacted in a similar way to the vitriolic, threatening and offensive comments about them and their beliefs which appear in the Arab press, there wouldn't be an Arab embassy left standing west of Istanbul.

The only "law" in place against publishing images of their Prophet is to prevent idolatry.

The only "law" in place against publishing images of their Prophet is to prevent idolatry.


Do you mean the Jews Christians or Muslims.. all three do not beleive in Idolization.. that was the 'cornerstone of Moshe (moses) after the 10 commandments.. christians sorta tagged along with it in the old testament.. but it is questionable with the churches usages of the cross or 'jesus' or jews usage of the star of david to have special meaning etc.. they all seem to do it in one form or another. Maybe I'm mistaken though.. like the muslims have the kaba

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=kaba&btnG=Google+Search&meta=


ark of the covenant etc.. etc.. it is questionable

It seems to be the difference between representation of the FAITH and representation of the g-d. IMO it should be synonymous but there seems to be allot of dogma in 'old over a thousand year old religions'

of course there may be a difference between prophet (speaker of fate)(or the will of g-d) messiah (the savior) and g-d itself. (it seems the difference between prophet and messiah is that a prophet does stuff as the will where as the messiah makes things better. I could be mistken) IMO g-d is everything that beyond the form and void

Im from Denmark, a really really bad thing to be at the moment, if you relate to the middle east, and i am completly shocked at how Jyllands-Posten (the newspaper which first posted the pictures) has been criticised.
Now i want to explain what those pictures mean, and why they were put in the newspapers.
First of all the most important thing in Denmark is the freedom of speech. It goes about everything else, to some extent we might have to much, but this is the reason why the pictures were pressed in the first placed. Secondly it was made because a danish guy was producing a satirical book about islam, and needed some pictures, but everyone was to afriad that anything would happen to them to make it. Therefore they posted a competition for people to send in drawings of Muhammed, as a joke, not to be taken seriously. They posted 11 funny drawings, and, unfortunatly, one really bad, which shouldnt have been posted. This one picture is a reason why i would have been mad as a muslim, but burning down danish buildings in the middle east? how can anyone react in such a way?
What i would like is to get some answers which argument for the strong reactions from muslim countries, such as the trade embargoes, because i would like to get a bigger insight and not just be told by the danish government and news that this is going to far.
So my quistion is: How come anyone eract this strongly on a satirical drawing?


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/suitability.jpg