NationStates Jolt Archive

Every time there is a discussion about Israel's creation, or their right to the land that they are on, I hear the same arguments.


Jews lived in that land prior to the creation of Israel
Jews were promised that land by God
Jews have a historical right to the land


So I have a question to all of you making these arguments.

Are you going to leave the countries (America, Australia, Africa) that YOU reside in, and return to wherever your ancestors came from, or move to the land that you're told to because the Aboriginals/Native Americans/Black Africans want your house, your land, your country back? Are you Australians going to give Sydney and Melbourne back, exactly as they are now, and live in say, Western Australia? Are you Americans going to hand back the Eastern states, and live in the Midwest? Because to me, it seems a little hypocritical if you say no.

I have no problem with the Jews returning to their ancestral homeland. I think however, it was a bit rich to hand them the land and make them a whole country.

Far as I recall, Palestine was of the Ottoman Empire.. not overly long before Israel was created after WW2. I don't agree with anything Israel. I'm all for Palestine. However, that area has been fucked for so long that it's hard to imagine it being anything else.

I have no problem with the Jews returning to their ancestral homeland. I think however, it was a bit rich to hand them the land and make them a whole country.

Dear sir and/or madam:

Your opinion is noted and has been given its due attention. While we appreciate your efforts in this matter, we have come to the understanding that you may have very little, if nothing, to do with the situation at hand and should, therefore, make no future effort at discussion on this topic.

With the wide variety of topics available - from "what to wear to prom" to "how much will that new pair of shoes cost" - we feel that your time and effort would be best served in another capacity.

Thank you,

The Powers That Be.

Of course, there's nothing you can do about it now, because if you took away Israel, you'd be doing the very thing you criticised!

Dear sir and/or madam:

Your opinion is noted and has been given its due attention. While we appreciate your efforts in this matter, we have come to the understanding that you may have very little, if nothing, to do with the situation at hand and should, therefore, make no future effort at discussion on this topic.

With the wide variety of topics available - from "what to wear to prom" to "how much will that new pair of shoes cost" - we feel that your time and effort would be best served in another capacity.

Thank you,

The Powers That Be.

So what topic would you prefer I discuss? Seeing as you obviously know everything about me. I evidently was misinformed that this was a place where one could express one's opinions, and have rational discussions, without having assumptions made.

P.S. From what I have read of your posts, you sure as hell don't like it when assumptions are made about Islam, or you as a Muslim. So why make assumptions about me?

P.S. From what I have read of your posts, you sure as hell don't like it when assumptions are made about Islam, or you as a Muslim. So why make assumptions about me?

Clearly because I have a sense of humor. You do not. Thanks for playing, though.

So you want my actual response to your post? Ok, fine ... here goes:

Tired, overdone crap. If you're not an Israeli citizen or a Palestinian, keep your nose out of it.

There is no solution to the problems of the two countries of which you speak until the Lion and the Lamb lie down together. And you can find that happening on Mt Carmel in Haifa Israel. Go do a search for Baha'i Gardens in Israel and you will find the answer.

Of course, there's nothing you can do about it now, because if you took away Israel, you'd be doing the very thing you criticised!

Yeah I know, the issue has gone beyond that now. It's now the birthplace of many people, and whether certain parties like it or not, it is a nation. I was just curious about people's feelings.

Tired, overdone crap. If you're not an Israeli citizen or a Palestinian, keep your nose out of it.

_You_ are bringing bad juju to the table here. Why don't you try acting like a human? It effects ALL OF US. The U.S.A. is majorly affected by what happens in Israel.

Meh. We just gave them a bit of help in the beginning getting started, and now they have earned their right in the region through war and conquest.

Clearly because I have a sense of humor. You do not. Thanks for playing, though.

So you want my actual response to your post? Ok, fine ... here goes:

Tired, overdone crap. If you're not an Israeli citizen or a Palestinian, keep your nose out of it.

I don't have a sense of humour
A) when people make assumptions about me because of a post I made,
B) when people put down others who place importance on other things to satiate their own desire to feel intellectually superior, because they couldn't put together a decent outfit if they hired a personal stylist and booked out David Jones for a week.

I don't have a sense of humour
A) when people make assumptions about me because of a post I made,
B) when people put down others who place importance on other things to satiate their own desire to feel intellectually superior, because they couldn't put together a decent outfit if they hired a personal stylist and booked out David Jones for a week.

A. True.
B. Gross.. hate that.
C. Glad you feel that way.

There is no solution to the problems of the two countries of which you speak until the Lion and the Lamb lie down together. And you can find that happening on Mt Carmel in Haifa Israel. Go do a search for Baha'i Gardens in Israel and you will find the answer.

I'm not asking for a solution to the problem. I don't think there is one, because I think both sides are wrong and right. I'm asking people to explain their reasoning.

A. True.
B. Gross.. hate that.
C. Glad you feel that way.

Thanks!

I'm not asking for a solution to the problem. I don't think there is one, because I think both sides are wrong and right. I'm asking people to explain their reasoning.

No, I'm not moving back to Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Finland, or France. That's where *I come from,* apparently, and of course I would never return. But then I'm not Jewish. I don't know why they want what they want. They need an "anchor" spot in the world.. that much is clear.

No, I'm not moving back to Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Finland, or France. That's where *I come from,* apparently, and of course I would never return. But then I'm not Jewish. I don't know why they want what they want. They need an "anchor" spot in the world.. that much is clear.

I wasn't actually expecting anyone to say yes. I don't consider that I *come from Germany* even though that's where my family is from originally. I consider myself as Australian as Albert Namatjira or Eddie Mabo. But I also sympathise with the people of that region who were forced out to make way for a new country (not the current generation, those who came before). I also believe that there is no solution to the problem that won't infringe on the rights of one group or another.

I think I phrased the OP badly.

Far as I recall, Palestine was of the Ottoman Empire.. not overly long before Israel was created after WW2. I don't agree with anything Israel. I'm all for Palestine. However, that area has been fucked for so long that it's hard to imagine it being anything else.

True. Holy land, my ass. That crust of dirt is drenched in blood. God hates Jerusalem. *nod*

I wasn't actually expecting anyone to say yes. I don't consider that I *come from Germany* even though that's where my family is from originally. I consider myself as Australian as Albert Namatjira or Eddie Mabo. But I also sympathise with the people of that region who were forced out to make way for a new country (not the current generation, those who came before). I also believe that there is no solution to the problem that won't infringe on the rights of one group or another. I think I phrased the OP badly.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I do sympathize with the common people over there. BUT I'm tired of hearing how great Israel is for killing Palestinians. I'm tired of the U.S. Jewish-controlled media telling us that Palestinians are basically sent from the devil and must be destroyed. I don't agree with that at all. And it makes me mad. The solution will be obvious soon enough. The U.S., which is in the clutches of a certain sect of Jews, will attack ALL of Israel's enemies one by one. Quote me. Just watch. All of Israel's enemies.. Iran, Syria, and whoever dares to step into their path.. they're all going down. That will surely be the resolution. Oh, and by the way, America is taking part in it all the way. We're Israel's biggest supporter. Anyway, I think your OP was phrased okay..

I'm not asking for a solution to the problem. I don't think there is one, because I think both sides are wrong and right. I'm asking people to explain their reasoning.

My point exactly. Both sides are wrong. There is a solution just as there are solutions to all other problems. And it is just were I said it is.

You know haha this post sounds so wrong just looking at it. WHAT IS THE FINAL SOLUTION TO THE JEWISH PROBLEM!? ... just you know throwing that out there.

Every time there is a discussion about Israel's creation, or their right to the land that they are on, I hear the same arguments.


Jews lived in that land prior to the creation of Israel



Actually the claim is true. Jews had lived in Jeruselem for centuries until the 1928 Arab revolt.

You know haha this post sounds so wrong just looking at it. WHAT IS THE FINAL SOLUTION TO THE JEWISH PROBLEM!? ... just you know throwing that out there.

But it is not a Jewish problem. It is a human problem that exist in many other areas of the world--how do neighbors manage to get along with each other.

You know haha this post sounds so wrong just looking at it. WHAT IS THE FINAL SOLUTION TO THE JEWISH PROBLEM!? ... just you know throwing that out there.

*HAHAHA!!* That's pretty funny. On a more serious note.. May be.. just may be.... it almost worked last time. :p (that's bad I know)

But it is not a Jewish problem. It is a human problem that exist in many other areas of the world--how do neighbors manage to get along with each other.


Palestinians are never gonna make peace w/the jews. Never as long as there is an Israel and even as long as jews live there. They are either gonna have to exile them all... or kill em.

Every time there is a discussion about Israel's creation, or their right to the land that they are on, I hear the same arguments.


Jews lived in that land prior to the creation of Israel
Jews were promised that land by God
Jews have a historical right to the land


Well you premise is a bit off, because those certainly aren't the most convincing arguments for the legitimacy of Israel. I think the real arguments are along the lines of settlement, working the land, and purchasing the land, and maybe creating a modern homeland for Jews. History and God don't make very good justification - a present population, economy, and culture do. All these were in place prior to the declaration of the State of Israel.

In my opinion, Israel should be under Jewish control, they were forced to leave the land before, and it was their land. But I don't think it is much use arguing, people have argued about that land since the begining of time, and will till the very end, which my be very soon...........:sniper: :headbang: :gundge: :mp5: :upyours:

Actually, I'd quite happily return to my ancestral homeland, as long as I am allowed to evict the current residents - who gained it under false pretenses - and return to traditional family ways.

I mean, it sits right over the main road and rail line, between Edinburgh and England. I'd be rich.

Palestinians are never gonna make peace w/the jews. Never as long as there is an Israel and even as long as jews live there. They are either gonna have to exile them all... or kill em.

Time will tell. But I can promise you that the day will come when Israelis and Palestinians live in peace.

Palestinians are never gonna make peace w/the jews. Never as long as there is an Israel and even as long as jews live there. They are either gonna have to exile them all... or kill em.

Jews are never gonna make peace w/the Palestinians. Never as long as there is a Palestine, and Palestinians..

Time will tell. But I can promise you that the day will come when Israelis and Palestinians live in peace.

Hey, Good Thoughts.. curious. Are you on Vegweb?

Jews are never gonna make peace w/the Palestinians. Never as long as there is a Palestine, and Palestinians..

Not true. Many Israelis would like to end the fighting. Same for the Palistineans.

I've been there......

Hey, Good Thoughts.. curious. Are you on Vegweb?

i must not be because i don't know what Vegweb is. Please explain!

Time will tell. But I can promise you that the day will come when Israelis and Palestinians live in peace.

Yes, eventually the rest of the world will make a desert and call it peace.

i must not be because i don't know what Vegweb is. Please explain!

Oh, okay. Vegweb is a vegetarian site with a personals section. I'm in Minnesota also. AND I'm in the personals section. Someone contacted me this morning of your age, and also happened to be a Minnesotan. I thought that would be odd if that was you. But never mind. :p

Oh, okay. Vegweb is a vegetarian site with a personals section. I'm in Minnesota also. AND I'm in the personals section. Someone contacted me this morning of your age, and also happened to be a Minnesotan. I thought that would be odd if that was you. But never mind. :p

No problem. I live in Bemidji and eat meat.:p But i do like veggie meals.

Yes, eventually the rest of the world will make a desert and call it peace.

My answer to that lies in the Baha'i Gardens in Haifa Israel on Mt Carmel. Do a search and check it out.

No problem. I live in Bemidji and eat meat.:p But i do like veggie meals.

Ha! I live in Duluth and.. yeah. Nice winter we're having up here, huh. :p Anyway, nice to have a fellow Minnesotan in this place. See you around!

My answer to that lies in the Baha'i Gardens in Haifa Israel on Mt Carmel. Do a search and check it out.

When I lived in [another country], all the produce was from Israel. They have some of the best.. THE best?.. growing methods around.

When I lived in [another country], all the produce was from Israel. They have some of the best.. THE best?.. growing methods around.Mmmmm, Israeli produce. *drools a bit*

When I lived in [another country], all the produce was from Israel. They have some of the best.. THE best?.. growing methods around.

No produce in the Baha'i Gardens just flowers, trees and beatiful buildings. here is a non-baha'i link to the gardens.

http://www.tour-haifa.co.il/Eng/gallery/bahaiEng.phtml

Ha! I live in Duluth and.. yeah. Nice winter we're having up here, huh. :p Anyway, nice to have a fellow Minnesotan in this place. See you around!

UpwardThrust lives in St. Cloud. Small world.

UpwardThrust lives in St. Cloud. Small world.

OH No! *Small World Week This Week* Once again, the small world syndrome comes to make me really wonder at what point my world shrank. I thought UpwardThrust was a Britisher. Fancy us all Minnesotans. :cool:

OH No! *Small World Week This Week* Once again, the small world syndrome comes to make me really wonder at what point my world shrank. I thought UpwardThrust was a Britisher. Fancy us all Minnesotans. :cool:

UpwardThrust works at St. Cloud State. He is 'puter Geekhead of the highest level. Very nice guy. He put my new 'puter together for. I love it and it works like a charm.

UpwardThrust works at St. Cloud State. He is 'puter Geekhead of the highest level. Very nice guy. He put my new 'puter together for. I love it and it works like a charm.

I knew he was a ComputerGeekhead of the highest level. Quite astonishing, really. That's cool. I'll have to contact him next time I need something major. !!

I knew he was a ComputerGeekhead of the highest level. Quite astonishing, really. That's cool. I'll have to contact him next time I need something major. !!

He has put together about 200 machines for people. I gave him some of the very best BBQ sauce in the world in exchange. I hope he thought it was a good deal. Well, I gotta go. Pancakes and Prayers tomorrow and I need my sleep.

Meh. We just gave them a bit of help in the beginning getting started, and now they have earned their right in the region through war and conquest.

Great stuff. I know this huge, spectacular house way out in hills, owned by a fairly famous family. I'll just beat the shit out of them and bobs yer uncle...


Well you premise is a bit off, because those certainly aren't the most convincing arguments for the legitimacy of Israel. I think the real arguments are along the lines of settlement, working the land, and purchasing the land, and maybe creating a modern homeland for Jews. History and God don't make very good justification - a present population, economy, and culture do. All these were in place prior to the declaration of the State of Israel..

And were in place prior to the influx of settlers, the establishment of any kibbutz etc. Its the old "there was nothing here..." myth which either refuses to acknowledge pre-existing cultures values (South Africa, Australia) or ignores the truth (Israel, Northern Ireland). Ironically in the case of what was the state of palestine there are quite accurate British records as to who owned what and who produced what, produced up to 1946, which are completely ignored by the Israeli side - presumably because they show the vast majority of land in Arab ownership, and the vast majority of agricultural produce coming from Arab land (as would be logical).

And were in place prior to the influx of settlers, the establishment of any kibbutz etc. Its the old "there was nothing here..." myth which either refuses to acknowledge pre-existing cultures values (South Africa, Australia) or ignores the truth (Israel, Northern Ireland). Ironically in the case of what was the state of palestine there are quite accurate British records as to who owned what and who produced what, produced up to 1946, which are completely ignored by the Israeli side - presumably because they show the vast majority of land in Arab ownership, and the vast majority of agricultural produce coming from Arab land (as would be logical).Well, you'll have to give me a source on that information. Besides agriculture, the urban developements created by Jewish settlement were significant. Not to mention that gains won in war are arguably rather justified.
In any event, I don't think arguing over history is very useful. Your angst over Israel's claims are futile. Past "legitimacy" is irrelevant. If you claim Israel to be illegitemate NOW, I'll just politely ignore you, as will the international community, and everyone else that matters. Really, is there a point to these musings? I could drag up all sorts of arguments as to why creating Israel was the right thing to do, but i won't. Why should we care at this point? Israel is established. deal with it.

Wasn't the whole middle east british territory at the time. As such I see no problem with England breaking off a chunk and handing it to the Israelis. Hell, to the victor the spoils and to the losers tough noogies.

Well, you'll have to give me a source on that information. Besides agriculture, the urban developements created by Jewish settlement were significant. Not to mention that gains won in war are arguably rather justified. .

A Survey of Palestine : Prepared in December, 1945 and January, 1946 for the Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0887282113/103-9586233-6558224?n=283155)

As far as I recall these were regular surveys carried out by the British. This was the last before the foundation of Israel.

Should war and conquest be seen as valid for Israel, then why should there have been a second world war or a gulf war? Or intervention in the FYR. We are meant to have risen above the days of imperial ambition and "grossdeutchland" style expansionist agendas.


In any event, I don't think arguing over history is very useful. Your angst over Israel's claims are futile. Past "legitimacy" is irrelevant. If you claim Israel to be illegitemate NOW, I'll just politely ignore you, as will the international community, and everyone else that matters. Really, is there a point to these musings? I could drag up all sorts of arguments as to why creating Israel was the right thing to do, but i won't. Why should we care at this point? Israel is established. deal with it.

Part of conflict resolution is to recognise both that wrong has been done and what that wrong was. A great deal of the fuel for Palestinian discontent is the lack of acknowledgement of the wrong done to them in the way that Israel was founded and the lack of redress.

Its entirely relevant because the occupation, on top of the previous injury is still a source of violence today. Ignoring the facts about the foundation of the Israeli state is often a tactic to undermine Palestinian calls for their own state. The problem is therefore not so much the current nation of Israel, but its occupation of the West Bank etc in that light.

Time will tell. But I can promise you that the day will come when Israelis and Palestinians live in peace.


Yea the end of the world the second before they all die.

Yea the end of the world the second before they all die.

You are aware aren't you that Jews and Muslims lived together in peace and harmony for hundreds of years?

You are aware aren't you that Jews and Muslims lived together in peace and harmony for hundreds of years?

That was when there was radical Christianity (The Church) and not Radical Islam. It basically did a 180 from what it used to be.

That was when there was radical Christianity (The Church) and not Radical Islam. It basically did a 180 from what it used to be.

That was when Christianity presecuted the Jews and the Muslims protected them. One-eighty is right.

That was when Christianity presecuted the Jews and the Muslims protected them. One-eighty is right.

Exactly.

But, now things have changed and Jews and Christians are allied in the war on Islam.

I never really understood why it wasnt like that, Christianity and Judaism are basically the same thing, save the fact that one group had their messiah and the other group is waiting, but I guess they are both kinda waiting cuz the Christians are also waiting for their messiah to come back. Same religion though, basically.

Exactly.

But, now things have changed and Jews and Christians are allied in the war on Islam.

I never really understood why it wasnt like that, Christianity and Judaism are basically the same thing, save the fact that one group had their messiah and the other group is waiting, but I guess they are both kinda waiting cuz the Christians are also waiting for their messiah to come back. Same religion though, basically.

Islam also believes in the exalted station of Jesus and Moses. They only differences are more aloong the social laws such as dietary and similiar kinds of laws. All of the purely spiritual laws are the same in all three religions. Muhammed was the first to clearly speak of the unity of all previous Messengers of God--Mummahed and Zoarster before him.

Islam also believes in the exalted station of Jesus and Moses. They only differences are more aloong the social laws such as dietary and similiar kinds of laws. All of the purely spiritual laws are the same in all three religions. Muhammed was the first to clearly speak of the unity of all previous Messengers of God--Mummahed and Zoarster before him.

Yeah...well I'll give that Islam is also an Abrahamic religion so it is sort of similar to us, but in practice now a days I see almost no similarities between Islam and Judeo-Christianity. Its a savage religion now, and maybe it wasnt intended to be that way, but through the practice now it has become voilent, anti semetic, racist, and xenophobic. It the exact same situation with what people say about Communism. Its theory and idea is good, but when people practice it, and what people have done with it and in the name of it, is horrible.

Obviously I'm generalizing about Islam and the people who practice that religion, but I'd much rather overestimate my enemy than underestimate.

Should war and conquest be seen as valid for Israel, then why should there have been a second world war or a gulf war? Or intervention in the FYR. We are meant to have risen above the days of imperial ambition and "grossdeutchland" style expansionist agendas. again, I would rather not get into this discussion, but lets remember who attacked who and why. At the time of conquest in 48 and 67 it was imperative for security that Israel did not simply hand back territory it won to its enemies the day after fighting ended. Israel is still technically at war with Syria, for example. There are portions of the Israeli public that still cherish hopes of a "greaterr Israel" but these are in hte minority. I don't think "expansionist agendas" are to explain the retention of the golan heigts, for example. And if this is such a stong motivator, why did Israel return Sinai in its entirity? When push comes to shove, Israel will give up its conquored lands - just not on anyone else's terms - Israel certainly owes nothing to the nations that so unwisely chose to attack her.



Part of conflict resolution is to recognise both that wrong has been done and what that wrong was. A great deal of the fuel for Palestinian discontent is the lack of acknowledgement of the wrong done to them in the way that Israel was founded and the lack of redress.

Its entirely relevant because the occupation, on top of the previous injury is still a source of violence today. Ignoring the facts about the foundation of the Israeli state is often a tactic to undermine Palestinian calls for their own state. The problem is therefore not so much the current nation of Israel, but its occupation of the West Bank etc in that light.Israel's creation is a source of violence for stubborn palestinians that are still in denial about its existance. Hammas still does not recognize Israel, though it was founded much after Israel's creation. Explain to me how Israel's genesis story is a source to their violence. My point is simply that we should be thinking of now, not then.

And on the subject of undermining calls for a palestinian state, I would say that it is not ignoring facts that causes this, but looking at the sordid history of hypocracy and violence of all of Israel's Arab neigbors. In any event, Israel itself has, for the last 13 years, acknowledged and recognized the need for a palestinian state - I suggest to you that you ar living in the past.

Yeah...well I'll give that Islam is also an Abrahamic religion so it is sort of similar to us, but in practice now a days I see almost no similarities between Islam and Judeo-Christianity. Its a savage religion now, and maybe it wasnt intended to be that way, but through the practice now it has become voilent, anti semetic, racist, and xenophobic. It the exact same situation with what people say about Communism. Its theory and idea is good, but when people practice it, and what people have done with it and in the name of it, is horrible.

Obviously I'm generalizing about Islam and the people who practice that religion, but I'd much rather overestimate my enemy than underestimate.

I am trying hard not to say:lump, lump, lump. As in lumping all people into the same pile and saying it smells. It is not Islam that is the enemy; it is ignorance and prejudice which no one is immune to. How else do you explain the one-eighty?

I am trying hard not to say:lump, lump, lump. As in lumping all people into the same pile and saying it smells. It is not Islam that is the enemy; it is ignorance and prejudice which no one is immune to. How else do you explain the one-eighty?

Easily. Islam and Christianity have changed, along with the people that practice them. Like I said in my previous post...I AM generalizing. I have been the the middle east and I will tell you, normal arabs (non extreamist, non terrorist, non government officials) didnt like me, because I wasnt an arab muslim. I was a white western infidel who reaks of Judaism and Christianity.

Easily. Islam and Christianity have changed, along with the people that practice them. Like I said in my previous post...I AM generalizing. I have been the the middle east and I will tell you, normal arabs (non extreamist, non terrorist, non government officials) didnt like me, because I wasnt an arab muslim. I was a white western infidel who reaks of Judaism and Christianity.

No doubt there is a large amount of dislike for Americans, or those who look like Americans. Only further proof of the decay of the true teachings of Islam. So what are we left with? Well, how about a new religion that links the previous three and brings new social and spiritual teaching. A religion that insists on the elimination of prejudices of all kinds: racial, religious, social and all others. A religion that raises up the down trodden, that rehabilitates the those who preach hate and brings unity of purpose to the most disunited.

I've liked how Isreal was created. I tyhink that if the Jews wanted to control their ancient homeland they should have started their own revolution rather than letting the western powers give away land that should not have been theirs in the first place. The creation of Isreal reeks of racism, imperialism and pity and I feel we should never have stuck our hand into its creation.

That being said I also think that Isreal has existed for so long and protected itself for so long that it would be unfair to take the land away from the Isrealies. I think it is time for the western world to back off and let the Middle-east determine what happens to Isreal rather than allow them to remain assured that the most powerful nations in the world will come to their aid if they are attacked.

I've liked how Isreal was created. I tyhink that if the Jews wanted to control their ancient homeland they should have started their own revolution rather than letting the western powers give away land that should not have been theirs in the first place. The creation of Isreal reeks of racism, imperialism and pity and I feel we should never have stuck our hand into its creation.Your persumptuousness is intolerable. No-one GAVE Jews Israel. It was not BESTOWED upon us by the western powers that be. It was demanded, woked for, and fully paid for in money, time, and blood. Israel is no-one's responsibility, no-one's fault, no-one's creation, but the Israeli people's themselves. Stop this patronizing paternalism - it is fallacious, vacuous, and so completely uecessary.

again, I would rather not get into this discussion, but lets remember who attacked who and why. At the time of conquest in 48 and 67 it was imperative for security that Israel did not simply hand back territory it won to its enemies the day after fighting ended. Israel is still technically at war with Syria, for example. .

I have not indicated that I support handing back any of the land taken in 48. What I am talking about is primarily a withdrawal from the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. All negotiation rights for these have been ceded by Jordan to the Palestinians, and there is a peace treaty with Jordan (and Egypt, for that matter).



There are portions of the Israeli public that still cherish hopes of a "greaterr Israel" but these are in hte minority. I don't think "expansionist agendas" are to explain the retention of the golan heigts, for example. And if this is such a stong motivator, why did Israel return Sinai in its entirity? When push comes to shove, Israel will give up its conquored lands - just not on anyone else's terms - Israel certainly owes nothing to the nations that so unwisely chose to attack her..

If there was no expansionist agenda, then one might ask why there are settlers in the West Bank, and attempts to effectively annex East Jerusalem by encirclement with same. I am rather unconcerned as to the wishes of the Syrian, Egyptian or Jordanian governments, but am interested in those of the Palestinian people.


Israel's creation is a source of violence for stubborn palestinians that are still in denial about its existance. Hammas still does not recognize Israel, though it was founded much after Israel's creation. Explain to me how Israel's genesis story is a source to their violence. My point is simply that we should be thinking of now, not then. ..

Because being brought up as the heirs of a disinherited people under the occupation, they felt that the PLO was not militant enough. Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah were also formed around the same time. They are the product of (then 20 years) of Israeli occupation, and US use of the veto.


And on the subject of undermining calls for a palestinian state, I would say that it is not ignoring facts that causes this, but looking at the sordid history of hypocracy and violence of all of Israel's Arab neigbors. In any event, Israel itself has, for the last 13 years, acknowledged and recognized the need for a palestinian state - I suggest to you that you ar living in the past.

They are indeed an unlovely bunch. However by its treatment of the Palestinians, Israel has become just as unlovely. And despite recognising the need, I see little progress, or genuine will to do so. Nor could there be, in the absence of pressure from Israels guardian.


I have been the the middle east and I will tell you, normal arabs (non extreamist, non terrorist, non government officials) didnt like me, because I wasnt an arab muslim. I was a white western infidel who reaks of Judaism and Christianity..

Well I am neither Arab nor Muslim, and I can honestly say that from what I read of you here I don't like you. And its nothing to do with what you presume you "reek" of, but your attitude to Arabs and Islam in general. I'd imagine that in person thats what they would have picked up on from you. Therefore "As ye sow, so shall ye reap".