NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, I will profess to not being an expert in either of the two religions. but I also know that I know more about Christianty than Islam.

Sadly, what I know of Islam is all what the media and the fanatics show. sad and sorry examples but the most seen and most visible. Just like the Fundies on the christian side give a sorry and poor example of Christianity.

It is my belief that at the core of both religions, you will find that both Islam and Christianty worship the same God. but since what I know about Islam is either propganda and just plain wrong, it is just a theory and my belief.

So here is what I have planned for this thread. To find out more about Islam as well as to provide information about Christianty in a neutral setting with the hope to gain a better understanding of both Religions.

Please, if you are not open-minded to either or both religions, I ask that you don't post. I would also like to ask that there not be any bashing, trolling, flame/baiting or personal attacks.

I don't care if you think both Religions are fake, that is not the purpose of this thread. This is not to disprove one or the other. but to see where the differences as well as similarities lie... if there are any.

so I ask people of both faith to lay down their hatred and have polite and open discussion.

Thank you.

I would like to first lay these out on the table.

Point 1:
in a thread, along time past, there was a discussion on The Koran, Some posters affirm that not all the scriptures are to be followed... It depended on time and situation.

the same can be said for the Bible. scriptures and laws do seem to be also on a case by case methodolgy.

does anyone agree or disagree with this?

---

Point 2:
The Bible
there are many versions of the Bible, with many different translations.

does the same hold true for the Koran?

---

Point 3:
deep down, both Islam and Chrisitanity both worship the same God. only the rituals are different.

agree or not.

---

Reference Links.
BibleGateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/)
Biblestudy.org (http://www.biblestudy.org/)
The Koran (The Koranhttp://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)
(and if anyone can provide other links to the Koran or the Bible, including Reference, study guides etc... they would be welcome)

It is my intent that this be a bridge between both religions. so that myths and misunderstandings are cleared away. so if anyone has questions or points, please feel free to post them.

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BASH ANY RELIGION. BUT A THREAD TO FIND FACTS AND PERHAPS MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING OF BOTH BELIEFS. DO NOT TROLL, FLAME OR MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS PLEASE.

(please read first post first)

What a crazy idea.

I cannot address the first two questions due to my ignorance on the topic, but as for #3 the answer is yes (and no) it is the same God:
The Yes part:
The Koran (from what I've read in it) says that God/Allah gave his message to Moses but that message was in turn corrupted by others - this corruption gave birth to Judaism. Later on Allah sent the prophet Jesus to spread the word but his message was also distorted amid boasts that he was crucified - the Koran says he wasn't, the man who was crucified was a criminal and Jesus escaped thus there was no resurection and Christianity is wrong. Then later the angel Gabriell spoke Allah's message to Muhamet...so essentially the Christian God, the Jewish God, and Allah are one and the same.
The No part:
Christianity tells us that Jesus was the son of God and it is Jesus who is the focal point of Christianity (hence the name). So in some respects Muslims worship Allah while Christians worship Jesus - not the same.

nb: This is my understanding of the whole afair, please don't hit me if I am wrong.

I'm only speaking from a Spiritualist's perspective (with a reasonable knowledge of Christian texts), but I'll give you my interpretation;

Point 1:
in a thread, along time past, there was a discussion on The Koran, Some posters affirm that not all the scriptures are to be followed... It depended on time and situation.

the same can be said for the Bible. scriptures and laws do seem to be also on a case by case methodolgy.

does anyone agree or disagree with this?
I can't claim to know enough about the complete contents of the Koran, but I can say about Christianity that "All that is supposed to be applicable applies all of the time". Essentially, the ideas of Jesus hold no matter what the situation. The Old Testament is contextual and is to be analysed mythologically, and everything after the Gospels is Advisory human correspondance, and isn't to be taken as divine mandate, but what has been attributed to Jesus is universal.

Point 2:
The Bible
there are many versions of the Bible, with many different translations.

does the same hold true for the Koran?
I do know that there are some deep resistances within Islam to translating their holy scripture. Generally, translations aren't held as the "Real Thing". The only "Scripture" is that which is in Arabic.

Point 3:
deep down, both Islam and Chrisitanity both worship the same God. only the rituals are different.

agree or not.
Agree in one sense, disagree in another. The God from which both faiths originate is the same thing. But each has applied personality and mythology to their God in such a way as to distort it into something else. In this respect, the "Gods" of the faiths are different, however slight, even if their origin is the same.

The similarities between the two are probably why they don't get along too well. Like poles repel, and all that.

Agree in one sense, disagree in another. The God from which both faiths originate is the same thing. But each has applied personality and mythology to their God in such a way as to distort it into something else. In this respect, the "Gods" of the faiths are different, however slight, even if their origin is the same.

Agreed. The Koran states that their Allah is the same God as the one worshipped by Christians and Jews; but his personality is different. In addition Jesus is only considered a prophet, not the son of.

I cannot address the first two questions due to my ignorance on the topic, but as for #3 the answer is yes (and no) it is the same God:
The Yes part:
The Koran (from what I've read in it) says that God/Allah gave his message to Moses but that message was in turn corrupted by others - this corruption gave birth to Judaism. Later on Allah sent the prophet Jesus to spread the word but his message was also distorted amid boasts that he was crucified - the Koran says he wasn't, the man who was crucified was a criminal and Jesus escaped thus there was no resurection and Christianity is wrong. Then later the angel Gabriell spoke Allah's message to Muhamet...so essentially the Christian God, the Jewish God, and Allah are one and the same.
The No part:
Christianity tells us that Jesus was the son of God and it is Jesus who is the focal point of Christianity (hence the name). So in some respects Muslims worship Allah while Christians worship Jesus - not the same.

nb: This is my understanding of the whole afair, please don't hit me if I am wrong.
Wont hit you. after all this is a thread to discuss the differences and similarities between the two.

Intersting points. can you provide where in the Koran these points about the corruption of Moses and Jesus and the angel speaking to Muhamet (is that the person who becomes Mohammad?)

Edited: might cause some confusion.

Agreed. The Koran states that their Allah is the same God as the one worshipped by Christians and Jews; but his personality is different. In addition Jesus is only considered a prophet, not the son of.Different? How so?

I'll stay out of this since I'm one of those evil sinners who don't believe in God at all.

Islam says their god is the same as that of the Jews and Christians, but the god of the Jews did not send his only son and did not have a prophet called Mohammed and the god of the Christians did not have a prophet called Mohammed, so 2 of the religions must be wrong.

Agreed. The Koran states that their Allah is the same God as the one worshipped by Christians and Jews; but his personality is different. In addition Jesus is only considered a prophet, not the son of.

i think perhaps, you have the part about what the Koran says about Jesus slightly wrong. Islam states very clearly that there is only one God. This was intended for Christians of the day who had turned God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit into three Gods. The rally cry of "There is no God but God and Muhammed is His Prophet" is testimony to this believe. Islam does not say that Jesus is not the son of God only that Son of God should be thought of as a title not a genetic description. This difference still divides the two religions to this day. There can never be any degree of real unity between the two radical segments of the two religions because radical christians insist that Jesus, because He is the Son of God, is greater than Mumhammed who was only a prophet.


Bahá'u'lláh taught, that Religion is the chief foundation of Love and Unity and the cause of Oneness. If a religion become the cause of hatred and disharmony, it would be better that it should not exist. To be without such a religion is better than to be with it.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 28)

Now, I will profess to not being an expert in either of the two religions. but I also know that I know more about Christianty than Islam.

Sadly, what I know of Islam is all what the media and the fanatics show. sad and sorry examples but the most seen and most visible. Just like the Fundies on the christian side give a sorry and poor example of Christianity.

It is my belief that at the core of both religions, you will find that both Islam and Christianty worship the same God. but since what I know about Islam is either propganda and just plain wrong, it is just a theory and my belief.

So here is what I have planned for this thread. To find out more about Islam as well as to provide information about Christianty in a neutral setting with the hope to gain a better understanding of both Religions.

Please, if you are not open-minded to either or both religions, I ask that you don't post. I would also like to ask that there not be any bashing, trolling, flame/baiting or personal attacks.

I don't care if you think both Religions are fake, that is not the purpose of this thread. This is not to disprove one or the other. but to see where the differences as well as similarities lie... if there are any.

so I ask people of both faith to lay down their hatred and have polite and open discussion.

Thank you.

I would like to first lay these out on the table.

Point 1:
in a thread, along time past, there was a discussion on The Koran, Some posters affirm that not all the scriptures are to be followed... It depended on time and situation.

the same can be said for the Bible. scriptures and laws do seem to be also on a case by case methodolgy.

does anyone agree or disagree with this?

---

Point 2:
The Bible
there are many versions of the Bible, with many different translations.

does the same hold true for the Koran?

---

Point 3:
deep down, both Islam and Chrisitanity both worship the same God. only the rituals are different.

agree or not.

---

Reference Links.
BibleGateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/)
Biblestudy.org (http://www.biblestudy.org/)
The Koran (The Koranhttp://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)
(and if anyone can provide other links to the Koran or the Bible, including Reference, study guides etc... they would be welcome)

It is my intent that this be a bridge between both religions. so that myths and misunderstandings are cleared away. so if anyone has questions or points, please feel free to post them.

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BASH ANY RELIGION. BUT A THREAD TO FIND FACTS AND PERHAPS MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING OF BOTH BELIEFS. DO NOT TROLL, FLAME OR MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS PLEASE.
That's exactly what I've been trying to say for the past umpteen years.

Bahá'u'lláh taught, that Religion is the chief foundation of Love and Unity and the cause of Oneness. If a religion become the cause of hatred and disharmony, it would be better that it should not exist. To be without such a religion is better than to be with it.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 28)
Ever the source of wisdom. ^_^

Bahá'u'lláh taught, that Religion is the chief foundation of Love and Unity and the cause of Oneness. If a religion become the cause of hatred and disharmony, it would be better that it should not exist. To be without such a religion is better than to be with it.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 28)

Man I love that guy. :)

Wont hit you. after all this is a thread to discuss the differences and similarities between the two.

Intersting points. can you provide where in the Koran these points about the corruption of Moses and Jesus and the angel speaking to Muhamet (is that the person who becomes Mohammad?)


Moses and Jesus weren't corrupted, but their message was.
Meant Mohammad, my spelling is poor. These quotes are from a translation different to my own so they differ.

Suru 2 has a lot about Moses, here it says 'We' meaning Allah:
And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.

In my translation 'they' is replaced by 'the Jews', saying that they heard the word but changed it:
Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

Here it denies the crucifixion:
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not

Don't know if the stuff about Gabriel is actually in the Koran itself but:
For Muslims it is the word of God revealed in Arabic by the archangel Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad and thence to mankind.

It is my belief that at the core of both religions, you will find that both Islam and Christianty worship the same God.

You really don't know how far down this rabbit hole goes, do you?

Not only do Islam, Judaism, and Christianity come out of the same tradition, but all religions have similar themes, motifs, etc.

Try reading some of Joseph Campbell's works. Nothing like seeing the similarities of, say, the Judaeo-Christian creation myth and the creation myth of the native Hawaiians. That ought to bake your noodle.

Moses and Jesus weren't corrupted, but their message was.
Meant Mohammad, my spelling is poor. These quotes are from a translation different to my own so they differ.

Suru 2 has a lot about Moses, here it says 'We' meaning Allah:


In my translation 'they' is replaced by 'the Jews', saying that they heard the word but changed it:


Here it denies the crucifixion:


Don't know if the stuff about Gabriel is actually in the Koran itself but:

I am not sure where the quote about the crucifixion comes from but I would have to say that what is being denied is not the actual physical act. Rather the quote is saying no harm came to Jesus. His kingdom,or Teachings, spread around the worldand only increased after His death. His teaching spread around the world.

Muhammed relationship with Jesus is,perhaps, best explained by this quote from the Koran.

Say ye, 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was brought to Moses and Jesus, and what was brought unto the Prophets from their Lord; we will not distinguish between any one of them, and unto Him are we resigned.'

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

Moses and Jesus weren't corrupted, but their message was.
Meant Mohammad, my spelling is poor. These quotes are from a translation different to my own so they differ.

Suru 2 has a lot about Moses, here it says 'We' meaning Allah:
And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.now here's one of the big questions... how was the message corrupted?

In my translation 'they' is replaced by 'the Jews', saying that they heard the word but changed it:
Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.Someone posted earlier that the only true scripture is the original Arabic one... could the perversion be the fact that it was translated to another language?

Another question. if the word was originally meant for everyone, meaning it was spread by Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad, why the hatred for Jews?

from what everyone is saying Islam and Christianity are like brothers, if not the same religion with different names.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say for the past umpteen years.

And what does that have to do with the flow of the topic?

Another question. if the word was originally meant for everyone, meaning it was spread by Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad, why the hatred for Jews?

from what everyone is saying Islam and Christianity are like brothers, if not the same religion with different names.

The first part of the last sentence can even be found in the Koran. However, there are also other sentences in the Koran - and like the Christians who solely focus on the Leviticus comment against homosexuality and ignore the whole "do not judge" and "be nice to eachother" bits some muslems like to read selectively too.

The first part of the last sentence can even be found in the Koran. However, there are also other sentences in the Koran - and like the Christians who solely focus on the Leviticus comment against homosexuality and ignore the whole "do not judge" and "be nice to eachother" bits some muslems like to read selectively too.
can you provide scriptures as well as links?

My familiarity with the Koran is, as I stated, Extremely limited.

I take exception to point 3.

JHWH and HLH are not the same.
No more than JHWH and the Amida Buddha are the same.
Or Kuanyin and HLH.

[B]Please, if you are not open-minded to either or both religions, I ask that you don't post.
What do you mean by "open-minded"? If you mean "sympatheitic", what has that to do with what you're asking, which is about knowledge? I'm a life-long atheist, but I understand more Christian theology and history than the majority of Christians.

[U]Point 1:
in a thread, along time past, there was a discussion on The Koran, Some posters affirm that not all the scriptures are to be followed... It depended on time and situation.

the same can be said for the Bible. scriptures and laws do seem to be also on a case by case methodolgy.

does anyone agree or disagree with this?
There's no simple answer to this, especially as both the Koran and Bible are internally contradictory, which makes it impossible to follow either of them in their entirety all the time.

I believe the Islamic position is that later chapters of the Koran carry more weight than eariler ones. But when they're trying to convince people that Islam is a religion of peace, Muslims will cite the earlier Koran, which is less beligerant than the later stuff.

Point 2:
The Bible
there are many versions of the Bible, with many different translations.

does the same hold true for the Koran?
A Muslim will say "no" - there is only one true version of the Koran. But in fact, there are two versions of the Arabic Koran, although the differences are minor (see http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm).

But all Muslims do agree that only the Arabic version is the true, perfect, Koran, passed by Allah to Muhammad via the Angel Gabriel (Jibril). Translations are OK, but cannot aspire to the perfection of the original.

Point 3:
deep down, both Islam and Chrisitanity both worship the same God. only the rituals are different.

agree or not.
Yes, they worship the same god - the god of Abaraham - but it is not only the rituals which are different : what they believe about God also differs.

What do you mean by "open-minded"? If you mean "sympatheitic", what has that to do with what you're asking, which is about knowledge? I'm a life-long atheist, but I understand more Christian theology and history than the majority of Christians.not being hard headed basically.


There's no simple answer to this, especially as both the Koran and Bible are internally contradictory, which makes it impossible to follow either of them in their entirety all the time.

I believe the Islamic position is that later chapters of the Koran carry more weight than eariler ones. But when they're trying to convince people that Islam is a religion of peace, Muslims will cite the earlier Koran, which is less beligerant than the later stuff. in other words, almost similar to the NT and OT of the bible.


A Muslim will say "no" - there is only one true version of the Koran. But in fact, there are two versions of the Arabic Koran, although the differences are minor (see http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm).

But all Muslims do agree that only the Arabic version is the true, perfect, Koran, passed by Allah to Muhammad via the Angel Gabriel (Jibril). Translations are OK, but cannot aspire to the perfection of the original.thats what others said.


Yes, they worship the same god - the god of Abaraham - but it is not only the rituals which are different : what they believe about God also differs.Such as...
what are the differences?

I take exception to point 3.

JHWH and HLH are not the same.
No more than JHWH and the Amida Buddha are the same.
Or Kuanyin and HLH.so what are the differences?

so what are the differences?

The question is rather colon what are the identities questionmark.

Unless EACH and EVERY attribute, including NAME are identitical, the objects reffered to as JHWH and HLH are not identitical.




Sorry about questionmark and colon, but I am travelling and cannot find all interpunctions on this keyboard.

The question is rather colon what are the identities questionmark.

Unless EACH and EVERY attribute, including NAME are identitical, the objects reffered to as JHWH and HLH are not identitical.




Sorry about questionmark and colon, but I am travelling and cannot find all interpunctions on this keyboard.and that is what I'm asking. for both similarities as well as differences. for the knowledgeable of each side to join in. so far tho, most of the repliers here seem more Islamic than Christian.

for instance, both have Jesus and Moses.

both mention the plight of the Jews altough from different POV's

and still reading the koran, so that's all i see for now, but if you can provide proof in scriptures...

and are you using a laptop? usually the punctuations are in a lighter shade... light blue or something. need to look for the key that activates those... like ALT or something.

and that is what I'm asking. for both similarities as well as differences.

for instance, both have Jesus and Moses.

both mention the plight of the Jews altough from different POV's

and still reading the koran, so that's all i see for now, but if you can provide proof in scriptures...

and are you using a laptop? usually the punctuations are in a lighter shade... light blue or something. need to look for the key that activates those... like ALT or something.

One differing attribute colon.
Derivation of name is not identitical.

Must decline on scriptures, as I would not necessarily accept both as divine words - would be a paradox, as they don#t apear to say same things.
Example colon legitimacy of inheritance of the sons of Abraham.
Primogeniture vz legitimacy.

and that is what I'm asking. for both similarities as well as differences. for the knowledgeable of each side to join in. so far tho, most of the repliers here seem more Islamic than Christian.
See, the thing is that in reality, the notion of the Christian God is incredibly open ended. There is nothing to explicitly suggest (beyond having knowledge about Jewish religion) that the God that Jesus served was exactly the same as that outlined in Abrahamic scripture; in fact, most modern Christians assume the Old Testament to be a form of mythology rather like Hinduism or Shintoism do. The God that Christianity believes exist is a very personal thing, and can't be tied down to universal description or fairy-tales.

On the other hand, Islam is very resolute about the identity of the God they worship. They hold to their scripture and prophet's words with great - some might say inflexible - conviction. There is very little doubt to them that Allah is God, Muhammed his prophet, and that all that is written about one by the other is fact.

The differences can't be found in scripture. It's the approach that each takes to scripture that ultimately defines the God they believe in.

Point 3:
deep down, both Islam and Chrisitanity both worship the same God. only the rituals are different.

agree or not.
Strongly disagree, being monotheistic doesn't mean it's the same stuff.
The rituals are what a religion is all about, so I wouldn't even say that deep down they are the same religion.
Oh, and I guess I qualify as open minded to both religions, I'm male ;)

Strongly disagree, being monotheistic doesn't mean it's the same stuff.
The rituals are what a religion is all about, so I wouldn't even say that deep down they are the same religion.
Oh, and I guess I qualify as open minded to both religions, I'm male ;)

I think we#ll first have to establish what we consider a religion to be, and I expect no agreement to be possible within that area...

I know that Muslims say that Jesus was one of the greatest prophets, AND they believe in his virgin birth. They just dont belive that he is actually the son of god.

Is it possible that the differences that one sees in the two religions is very superfical and mostly social in nature. At their core both religions believe the same exact principles and their purpose of the betterment of humankind is the same. Proof of this is in the dramatic change that the teachings of Muhammed brought to the people of Arabia. They were before the coming of Muhammed they were in a difficult condition. Muhammed turned them into the greatest civilisation known to humanity up to that time. The pervasion of the Koran is what we witness in the news everday. Rituals are not what make a religion. They are what prevent people from recognizing the new Prophet.

Christianity : Islam (please read first post first)
Now, I will profess to not being an expert in either of the two religions. but I also know that I know more about Christianty than Islam.

Sadly, what I know of Islam is all what the media and the fanatics show. sad and sorry examples but the most seen and most visible. Just like the Fundies on the christian side give a sorry and poor example of Christianity.

It is my belief that at the core of both religions, you will find that both Islam and Christianty worship the same God. but since what I know about Islam is either propganda and just plain wrong, it is just a theory and my belief.

So here is what I have planned for this thread. To find out more about Islam as well as to provide information about Christianty in a neutral setting with the hope to gain a better understanding of both Religions.

Please, if you are not open-minded to either or both religions, I ask that you don't post. I would also like to ask that there not be any bashing, trolling, flame/baiting or personal attacks.

I don't care if you think both Religions are fake, that is not the purpose of this thread. This is not to disprove one or the other. but to see where the differences as well as similarities lie... if there are any.

so I ask people of both faith to lay down their hatred and have polite and open discussion.

Thank you.

I would like to first lay these out on the table.

Point 1:
in a thread, along time past, there was a discussion on The Koran, Some posters affirm that not all the scriptures are to be followed... It depended on time and situation.

the same can be said for the Bible. scriptures and laws do seem to be also on a case by case methodolgy.

does anyone agree or disagree with this?

---

Point 2:
The Bible
there are many versions of the Bible, with many different translations.

does the same hold true for the Koran?

---

Point 3:
deep down, both Islam and Chrisitanity both worship the same God. only the rituals are different.

agree or not.

---

I'm not sure how to answer number 1.

2. Well, kinda. There are a helluva lotta translations out there, but it's generally accepted that only the Arabic version is the true version.

3. I pretty much agree. Even the differences they have (I.E. Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isa)) are slight. For example, in Islam, Jesus is pretty much the second most important prophet, after Muhammed, and his story is nearly exactly the same except for a few differences. Basically, that he didn't die on the cross, but tricked his crucifiers into thinking he died and he then went to heaven anyhoo, and that he isn't a figure to the worshiped like God. He DID have a virgin birth, and he will come back at the end of days to fight the Dajjal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dajjal) (basically the Muslim Anti-Christ), though.