NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060204/ts_nm/religion_cartoons_syria_dc_4;_ylt=AjF2268bNfy_FFjvvSciOCrbEfQA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

I find this outrage by the Muslims hilarious. If the Jews reacted this way everytime these Islamofascists printed an antisemitic cartoon against the Jews there wouldn't be any Arab embassies left in the world.

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm

Go and see this link. While it is the ADL, they haven't altered any of the material. It is 100 times worse than what that Danish paper did. These animals support the idea that "The Protocols of Elder Zion" is an actual document and not a forgery as every historian says it is. They are printing blood libel that makes the crap put out by the Czars to ignite pogroms look tame. Come on Muslim sympathizers. Try and refute this. You can't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=467011

I saw the other thread, but I started a new one because I'm taking this in a different direction. I'm showing that this is ironic seeing how the Muslims are far worse when it comes to printing cartoons.

I find this outrage by the Muslims hilarious. If the Jews reacted this way everytime these Islamofascists printed an antisemitic cartoon against the Jews there wouldn't be any Arab embassies left in the world.



which is such a shame:p

I agree. What these extremists are doing right now is totally unacceptable and unjustifiable. There is no reason for anyone to commit criminal acts (including attempting murder) just because they are offended by something. Freedom of expression is naturally bound to offend people, and if they don't like it, all I have to say is tough shit. You don't have control over what people can and can't say...live with it and move on, because everyone will be offended by something at some point in their lives.

If the Muslim community fails to condemn and take action against these criminals, they will look like they are condoning their actions.

Hell, if the Jews did this every time something offensive to or about them was published, pretty much the entire world would be in ruins by now.

I agree. What these extremists are doing right now is totally unacceptable and unjustifiable. There is no reason for anyone to commit criminal acts (including attempting murder) just because they are offended by something. Freedom of expression is naturally bound to offend people, and if they don't like it, all I have to say is tough shit. You don't have control over what people can and can't say...live with it and move on, because everyone will be offended by something at some point in their lives.

If the Muslim community fails to condemn and take action against these criminals, they will look like they are condoning their actions.

Hell, if the Jews did this every time something offensive to or about them was published, pretty much the entire world would be in ruins by now.
I know. Israel would've pushed the big red button if the Jews reacted this way. On a single day more blood libel is put out by Muslim papers (most government run) than has been put out against the Muslims. The Muslims are reacting to this ONE incident. Imagine if the Jews did that. There would be 1.2 billion dead Muslims.

I know. Israel would've pushed the big red button if the Jews reacted this way. On a single day more blood libel is put out by Muslim papers (most government run) than has been put out against the Muslims. The Muslims are reacting to this ONE incident. Imagine if the Jews did that. There would be 1.2 billion dead Muslims.

as well as a very big Israel controlling a lot of oil

as well as a very big Israel controlling a lot of oil
LOL. We have a joke. "Moses wandered through the desert for 40 years to lead us to the only spot in the Middle East without oil!!!"

LOL. We have a joke. "Moses wandered through the desert for 40 years to lead us to the only spot in the Middle East without oil!!!"

:D I can Imagine how that would take 40 yrs.:D

I believe that whenever Israel or the US have complained about the rampant Anti-Semitism in most, if not all, Arab newspapers they have been briskly rebuffed by the authorities concerned.

Governments in Saudi Arabia and Egypt have deflected criticism and refused to do anything about it by citing 'the freedom of the press', despite the fact that most newspapers in these countries are either state-owned or state-controlled anyway.

The hypocrisy is sickening.

It's arrogant of them to think that they can insult and defame Jews, but any insult to them must be ruthlessly avenged. It's the same attitude a skinhead or KKK member has. They can insult the "mud people", but can't tolerate any insult to themselves.

It's arrogant of them to think that they can insult and defame Jews, but any insult to them must be ruthlessly avenged. It's the same attitude a skinhead or KKK member has. They can insult the "mud people", but can't tolerate any insult to themselves.

i like your analogy. Arab supremacists can't stand the idea that Jews even have basic human rights, just as white supremacists feel the same way towards blacks.

I agree. I detest the blatant lies posted by the Arab media, but it is their right to do so sadly (well depending on how you view slander.) Their cartoons are made for the sole purpose of instigating hate towards the Jews. Any Nazi or Russian who participated in pogroms would feel right at home reading their newspapers.

What this hilarious is how they respond when they get cartoons drawn about them. The doublestandard is hilarious.

A summary from the Arab point of view......


Racial and religous hatred cartoons = ok

Blasphemous cartoons = not ok

A summary from the Arab point of view......


Racial and religous hatred cartoons = ok

Blasphemous cartoons = not ok
It is more like

Racial, religious hatred, and blasphemous cartoons against Jews and other infidels: OK.


Racial, religious hatred, and blasphemous cartoons against us: DEATH TO (insert group here)

I hope the next embassy the try to torch, the guards gun them all down. It's not fair that they can spread outright lies about other religions yet everyone else has to tiptoe around them lest we insult their 'Beliefs'. If the US reacted like that to every anti-US cartoon, the world would be destroyed by now.

The Muslim reaction is getting ridiculous now. It's disappointing.

Plus, I fail to see what they think they will achieve by boycotting Danish goods. We all know Muslims don't eat bacon anyway. :p

It will be funny to see people try and defend them now.

Can you imagine what people in the future will be thinking when they learn about this point in history?

"And so, boys and girls, the Third World War was started by a bunch of unfunny and untalented cartoonists who insulted a group of narrow minded psychopaths".

I'm ashamed to be a member of this time-span. :(

Can you imagine what people in the future will be thinking when they learn about this point in history?

"And so, boys and girls, the Third World War was started by a bunch of unfunny and untalented cartoonists who insulted a group of narrow minded psychopaths".

I'm ashamed to be a member of this time-span. :(
I'd be ashamed if I were one of the assholes in the Middle East who imposes this double standard.

someone needs to get these guys a valium...

or better, cyanide.

hehe

(see? it's the total lack of a sense of humor that's dumbfounding)

someone needs to get these guys a valium...

or better, cyanide.
Where are you when we need you most Rev. Jones?

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/guyana/jim-jones.jpg

I'm still waiting for the apologists to show up

I'm still waiting for the apologists to show up
It is so unbelievably tempting to say something along the lines of "They're all out burning things", but I shan't. I think it's reasonable to say nobody is condoning the attack. Well, nobody worth listening to, anyway.

*Semi-Apologist appears*

Oh look, several thousand Muslims are burning Danish flags and destroying their buildings. It follows that the hundreds of millions of followers of the Islamic faith are bent on our destruction. Just look at the unrest in Bradford and Luton! Oh my!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060206/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings
More good PR from the Muslims.

No one can say the Christians overreacted to NBC's show. If they burn down 30 Rockefeller Plaza, then you will have a point there.

*sigh*

Party A: *draws picture*
Party B: Hey! That's offensive! Apologize please.
Party A: NO! FUCK OFF! FREEEEDOOOOOMMMM!!!!
Party B: *grumble*
Party A: *reprints picture in more places*
Party B: Damnit! Cut that out! You knew it was offensive!
Party A: *sticks out tongue* Nya nya nya! I can do what I want!
Party B: Fine! *boycotts Party A*
Party C: Hey look. Those two are fighting. Let's reprint what they're fighting about in hundreds of places in "solidarity"!
Party B: ARRGGHHH! Enough is enough! Now it's just deliberate!
Party A&C: *sticks out tongue* Nya nya nya! You hate our freedoms! You can't stop us! HAHAHA! We are teh mature!

Party B burns some flags, starts some riots, burns a building or two.

Now what did we learn?

Sorry, folks. I'm siding with Party B on this one. Best way to deal with a belligerent child is by spanking it.

Sorry, folks. I'm siding with Party B on this one. Best way to deal with a belligerent child is by spanking it.

So free speech is only OK when you agree with what it says?

...It was a cartoon...seriously...tolerance, people, tolerance. You may not agree with what some asshole has to say, think, or draw, but that does not mean you BURN EVERYTHING!!!! ROOOOAAAAAAAAAAWWWWR!

-_-

Keruvalia: so who's belligerent now?

So free speech is only OK when you agree with what it says?

Not exactly, no. However, if I went around screaming "******!" in black neighborhoods and sticking my tongue out when someone asked me to apologize and told them to grow a thicker skin because I have the freedom to do so, I would not be in any way surprised when I get shot in the face.

I believe in freedom of speech, I do not believe in freedom from culpability.

...It was a cartoon...seriously...tolerance, people, tolerance. You may not agree with what some asshole has to say, think, or draw, but that does not mean you BURN EVERYTHING!!!! ROOOOAAAAAAAAAAWWWWR!

It's more than about a cartoon. This has been building for months. The flag burning, boycotts, and building fires are not a sudden violent reaction to some cartoons.

It is a reaction to a continual lack of common courtesy.

It will get worse before it gets better. Trust me.

Not exactly, no. However, if I went around screaming "******!" in black neighborhoods and sticking my tongue out when someone asked me to apologize and told them to grow a thicker skin because I have the freedom to do so, I would not be in any way surprised when I get shot in the face.

I believe in freedom of speech, I do not believe in freedom from culpability.

I would expect you to get shot too. Doesn't make it right though. Also, I don't fall for your whole "racism is bad, so if I use it as an analogy that makes criticism of religion bad too" idea.

I would expect you to get shot too. Doesn't make it right though.

Not saying it would be right, but I understand it.

Just as I understand why Muslims in the ME are getting so riled up.

What I don't understand is the blatant rudeness and arrogance being displayed by much of Europe over this.

Hence, I am siding with the offended, not the offenders.

It's more than about a cartoon. This has been building for months. The flag burning, boycotts, and building fires are not a sudden violent reaction to some cartoons.

It is a reaction to a continual lack of common courtesy.

It will get worse before it gets better. Trust me.
Yeah and Christians in the USA have been bitching about how the networks do things. See that show NBC had on, but I didn't see them burn down 30 Rockefeller Plaza.

The big thing is that the Muslims want us to follow their laws about how they show Mohammed. Guess what, none of us are bound by Islamic Law so we don't have to abide by it. Don't like it? Then don't move to Europe. It's called freedom of speech and it exists. As much as I don't like it, there are Nazi and KKK rallies, but guess what? It is legal. Don't expect the world to give up Freedom of Speech to abide by your laws. What do you wnat us to do next? Veil our women?

Yeah and Christians in the USA have been bitching about how the networks do things. See that show NBC had on, but I didn't see them burn down 30 Rockefeller Plaza.

What, exactly, does what Christians do have anything to do with this subject?

Christians control the United States, so there is no need for shock protests for them to be heard here. Look at the huge backlash from the Superbowl nipple incident. Nothing needed to be burned, they simply enacted legislation.

Muslims can't do that in Denmark.

The big thing is that the Muslims want us to follow their laws about how they show Mohammed.

No, actually, we don't. What we want is a little courtesy.

Not saying it would be right, but I understand it.

Just as I understand why Muslims in the ME are getting so riled up.

What I don't understand is the blatant rudeness and arrogance being displayed by much of Europe over this.

Hence, I am siding with the offended, not the offenders.

I understand that they are offended. Everyone's been offended, it's just that most people don't try to kill the offenders (or their uninvolved countrymen) to silence them. They just say "oh well, I don't care what <whoever> thinks".

Let's make sure we don't forget there is one influential Muslim leader that has not demanded violent protest over these cartoons.

In Iraq, the leading Shiite cleric denounced the drawings first published in a Danish newspaper in September, one of which depicted the prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb. But the cleric also suggested militant Muslims were partly to blame for distorting the image of Islam.
...
Iraq's leading Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, condemned the publications as a "horrific action."

But in remarks posted on his Web site, al-Sistani referred to "misguided and oppressive" segments of the Muslim community whose actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."


If Muslims expect to be taken seriously, they need to consider and act in accordance with these remarks.

If Muslims expect to be taken seriously, they need to consider and act in accordance with these remarks.

The vast, overwhelming majority of us do. It's not our fault you only look at a couple thousand instead of the rest of the 1.5 billion who *aren't* burning flags.

No, actually, we don't. What we want is a little courtesy.
How about this, I'll show you courtesy when your people do the same and stop printing anti-semitic shit and blood libel daily. See my 2nd link in my 1st post. Those are unedited examples.

How about this, I'll show you courtesy when your people do the same and stop printing anti-semitic shit and blood libel daily. See my 2nd link in my 1st post. Those are unedited examples.

Last I checked, I'm an Irish Jew. I'm not an Arab in any sense of the word.

Not sure what you mean by "your people".

Last I checked, I'm an Irish Jew. I'm not an Arab in any sense of the word.

Not sure what you mean by "your people".
(blushes with embarassment) I thought you were a Muslim, but either way. If the Muslims want us to respect them, they have to show respect first.

The vast, overwhelming majority of us do. It's not our fault you only look at a couple thousand instead of the rest of the 1.5 billion who *aren't* burning flags.
It's always the squeaky wheel that gets the attention. There's an unchecked and barbaric quality to the thousands that decide to riot. That barbarism is a little unsettling to a lot of us. I would think it unsettles the rest of your 1.5 billion, too. Why is Al Sistani the only major cleric that is willing to confront it?

(blushes with embarassment) I thought you were a Muslim, but either way. If the Muslims want us to respect them, they have to show respect first.

I am Muslim. I converted in Nov. 2004.

I've never shown anything but respect, yet many European publications are deliberately setting out to offend me. Makes no sense.

Muslims are the ones protesting, not just the Arabs.

However, someone else mentioned KKK and Nazi rallies not inciting riots. Um, yes they do, not too long ago as a matter of fact, Toledo, Ohio.

This time around, both sides are wrong.

I would think it unsettles the rest of your 1.5 billion, too. Why is Al Sistani the only major cleric that is willing to confront it?

It does and I'm sure he's not the only one. Keep digging. I'm sure there's more there. When we talked about this at Mosque the other day, the conclusion was drawn that the whole thing is completely stupid.

We didn't, however, elect to issue a global press release.

Muslims are the ones protesting, not just the Arabs.

People have the right to protest.

I am Muslim. I converted in Nov. 2004.

I've never shown anything but respect, yet many European publications are deliberately setting out to offend me. Makes no sense.
WHat the European papers do is nothing in comaparison to what the Muslim papers do. Read the link in my 1st post.

People have the right to protest.

Of course they do.

WHat the European papers do is nothing in comaparison to what the Muslim papers do. Read the link in my 1st post.

What does that have to do with me?

Why does it give Europe the right to deliberately set out to offend me?

What did I do?

People have the right to protest.
You don't have the right to commit crimes. And they shouldn't be this upset when their own papers are 100 times worse. The irony here is hilarious. If the Jews reacted this way for every example of anti-semitism their press prints there would be 1.5 billion dead Muslims.

You don't have the right to commit crimes. And they shouldn't be this upset when their own papers are 100 times worse.

Maybe you should remember that time honored childhood traditional lesson that goes: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Using "well they're worse" as an excuse is just adding fuel to the fire.

It does and I'm sure he's not the only one. Keep digging. I'm sure there's more there. When we talked about this at Mosque the other day, the conclusion was drawn that the whole thing is completely stupid.

We didn't, however, elect to issue a global press release.
I did. What I find is that Al Sistani is the only named cleric that doesn't demand a "day of wrath". I realize you don't have a figurehead like the Pope, but I'd think that leaders of other major mosques would want to quiet these riots by making public announcements. Is the whole issue someone else's problem?

This is a lot more typical of what I see in print.

In mosques throughout Palestinian cities, clerics condemned the cartoons. An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind the drawings should have their heads cut off.

While the building burning is obviously wrong, I don't understand why people here are saying "The Muslims", as if all Muslims act this way. Most don't.

Personally, I think both sides are at fault, for reasons already mentioned by everyone else.

Question though: Why is it that, when something like this happens, people always get on the asses of Muslim clerics to come out and denounce it, but the same isn't expected of Christian leaders when someone bombs an abortion clinic, or when Pat Robertson comes out and says something stupid and hateful? And then the Christians piss and moan about how they're all stereotyped as being crazy fundamentalists. Maybe it's for the same reason you stereotype Muslims as all being crazy fundamentalists just because some of em don't denounce or condemn it publicly. Double standards, anyone?

Is the whole issue someone else's problem?

Sort of, yes. It's not really affecting me much at all and probably never will.

Double standards, anyone?

They make the world go 'round.

While the building burning is obviously wrong, I don't understand why people here are saying "The Muslims", as if all Muslims act this way. Most don't.

Personally, I think both sides are at fault, for reasons already mentioned by everyone else.

Question though: Why is it that, when something like this happens, people always get on the asses of Muslim clerics to come out and denounce it, but the same isn't expected of Christian leaders when someone bombs an abortion clinic, or when Pat Robertson comes out and says something stupid and hateful? And then the Christians piss and moan about how they're all stereotyped as being crazy fundamentalists. Maybe it's for the same reason you stereotype Muslims as all being crazy fundamentalists just because some of em don't denounce or condemn it publicly. Double standards, anyone?
When was the last time you saw thousands of Christians riot, attack foreign embassies, and burn whatever they could get their hands on over a religious matter?

This is a lot more typical of what I see in print.

As you said, the squeaky wheel gets the grease or - in this case - publicity.

What you probably won't read is that 8,900 of those 9,000 worshippers scoffed at what the Imam said and went about their merry business.

… but the same isn't expected of Christian leaders when someone bombs an abortion clinic, or when Pat Robertson comes out and says something stupid and hateful? …

Pat Robertson is denounced publicly by other Christian leaders, Pat Robertson has been forced to apologize more than once from peer pressure alone. Name one abortion clinic bombing specifically and I'll go look and see who denounced it publicly.

I see no double standard in fact, only your accusation of it.

When was the last time you saw thousands of Christians riot, attack foreign embassies, and burn whatever they could get their hands on over a religious matter?

Again ... incidental. Christians simply enact legislation to get their way.

However, as I said to IDF, using "well they're worse" as an excuse is just adding fuel to the fire.

Question though: Why is it that, when something like this happens, people always get on the asses of Muslim clerics to come out and denounce it, but the same isn't expected of Christian leaders when someone bombs an abortion clinic, or when Pat Robertson comes out and says something stupid and hateful? And then the Christians piss and moan about how they're all stereotyped as being crazy fundamentalists. Maybe it's for the same reason you stereotype Muslims as all being crazy fundamentalists just because some of em don't denounce or condemn it publicly. Double standards, anyone?

Well, duh. They're white. :rolleyes:

While the building burning is obviously wrong, I don't understand why people here are saying "The Muslims", as if all Muslims act this way. Most don't.

Personally, I think both sides are at fault, for reasons already mentioned by everyone else.

Question though: Why is it that, when something like this happens, people always get on the asses of Muslim clerics to come out and denounce it, but the same isn't expected of Christian leaders when someone bombs an abortion clinic, or when Pat Robertson comes out and says something stupid and hateful? And then the Christians piss and moan about how they're all stereotyped as being crazy fundamentalists. Maybe it's for the same reason you stereotype Muslims as all being crazy fundamentalists just because some of em don't denounce or condemn it publicly. Double standards, anyone?

Though I am in no way a supporter of Pat Robertson, he did 1) get criticized by many other religious leaders and 2) later retracted his offensive statements.

Again ... incidental. Christians simply enact legislation to get their way.

Yeah, middle eastern muslims have already enacted as much theocratic legislation as they can. Christian countries are way behind, but some are catching up slowly.

If the Jews reacted this way for every example of anti-semitism their press prints there would be 1.5 billion dead Muslims.
Except that we're supposed to be better than that.

I'm kind of glad that this thread isn't as ignorant/idiotic by people generalizing Muslims as a whole in this (besides that one ridiculous 1.5 billion Muslims will be dead -- do you mean to say Israel will bomb the World and expect no consequences just to kill Muslims? HOW ridiculous).

Also, atleast Islam isn't related in this partial-flame-war.I think his point was that israel *wouldn't* react that way.

This thread is no-where near a flame war.

@Leonstein, yes, we should be better than that - but so should everybody.

Look, how old are we to generalize, over-generalize and degrade others? No really. Ofcourse we all do it, but we SHOULD know better.

The ONLY neutral and unbias people commenting in this thread are Neo Plaid and Keruvalia, afterall, they don't degrade others for what some did.

Unlike OTHERS :rolleyes:

Jesus, why is it that the Muslim community worldwide seems to be so much more violent in these matters?

Iranian schools preach that Christianity causes girls to become whores, but no Iranian embassies are burned down. A few Danish cartoons are published that offend Muslims, and they go off and torch an embassy and an entire Christian neighborhood. The Virgin Mary got put into a jar with urine and displayed as "art" in New York and Christians vehemently protested. Vague rumors of Qu
aran desecration at Guantanamo lead to deadly riots. Is it just me or is this a pattern of behavior? I'm no anti-Muslim fundamentalist, but this seems to be indicative of a larger scale problem.

Look, how old are we to generalize, over-generalize and degrade others? No really. Ofcourse we all do it, but we SHOULD know better.

The ONLY neutral and unbias people commenting in this thread are Neo Plaid and Keruvalia, afterall, they don't degrade others for what some did.

Unlike OTHERS :rolleyes:look, if you don't like the level of politeness here, go to a prayer meeting or something. No-one's even been flamed.

Leonstein, yes, we should be better than that - but so should everybody.
The problem is that we can't make other people act the way we want. Islam is in a troubled time, and that's not helped by the West getting all hot and bothered right now.
Ultimately there is two things we can do about it:
1) Using the Muslim communities in the West, with their more liberal attitudes, to make a different theological case to the one made by pundits in the Middle East.
2) Helping the people in the Middle East to get rid of the oppression and poverty they are faced with. For many there, extremist Islam is the only alternative, it's a protest movement as much as anything.

And meanwhile, we somehow have to try and preserve for ourselves what is presumably worth preserving. And part of that is to keep a bit of Idealism going, to not sink to their level.

The problem is that we can't make other people act the way we want. Islam is in a troubled time, and that's not helped by the West getting all hot and bothered right now.
Ultimately there is two things we can do about it:
1) Using the Muslim communities in the West, with their more liberal attitudes, to make a different theological case to the one made by pundits in the Middle East.
2) Helping the people in the Middle East to get rid of the oppression and poverty they are faced with. For many there, extremist Islam is the only alternative, it's a protest movement as much as anything.

And meanwhile, we somehow have to try and preserve for ourselves what is presumably worth preserving. And part of that is to keep a bit of Idealism going, to not sink to their level.The problem with this is not a practical one - I agree with your suggestions.

My problem is in the paternalistic attitude that says "okay, we're the big kids, so we don't have to expect the best of anyone else." Lowering standards and moderating our reactions to unnacceptable behaviour will not make the ultimate developement of Islam out of this "troubled time" any more succesful. As with all things, we must act with pragmatism and respect.

Lowering standards and moderating our reactions to unnacceptable behaviour...
No one is advocating that. There are things though that are off the cards. Genocide, Torture, Segregation or touching the Freedom of Religion should be on that list as a matter of course.
Ultimately, using those things we might be able to suppress those that disagree with us, and might even want to kill us, but in the process we won't have anything to do with what we originally wanted to defend.

This is a lot like the debate back in the day when Joe McCarthy hunted the Reds.

...will not make the ultimate developement of Islam out of this "troubled time" any more succesful. As with all things, we must act with pragmatism and respect.
Of course. But pragmatism can mean many things, and you need to draw lines that you don't cross.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,399175,00.html
Have a read here. It's an alternative viewpoint in this whole thing, from a Western journalist in Istanbul. I may not agree with all of it, but he makes some reasonable points.
And in case you speak German, http://www.spiegel.de/politik/debatte/0,1518,399198,00.html

People have the right to protest.

does your version of protest cover burning and destroying that which you protest as OK...Whose version of the holy book says that believers should tax nonbelievers? Probably why some countries try to separate religion from government. Countries attached to religion (especially fanatic zealots) are always headed for the dark ages where their control is most complete. Few western women would convert to a religion that considers them no more than chattel.:headbang:

Now they're attacking people, quite frankly these Religious nuts are just hurting themselves, some of the countries that posted them were neutral on the war on terror. Now what will they do when the terrorists declare war on them? They'll fight back. Real smart move.

Oh and I wish the Governments of Syria and Iran only ill will.

Not saying it would be right, but I understand it.

Just as I understand why Muslims in the ME are getting so riled up.

What I don't understand is the blatant rudeness and arrogance being displayed by much of Europe over this.

Hence, I am siding with the offended, not the offenders.


That's logic if I ever heard any. I'm offended that Bush won't protect US southern borders from active infiltration taking place--guess I should protest by burning Mexico to the ground?

Few western women would convert to a religion that considers them no more than chattel.:headbang:
Islam is still the fastest-growing religion in the world, and (discounting for population growth rates) the indication would be that about 50% of converts are female...

EDIT: I found a neat link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam

Few western women would convert to a religion that considers them no more than chattel.:headbang:

1] Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Apparently it's not as bad as you seem to think.

2] Islam is very respectful of women and, in some cases, places them of greater importance than men.

Don't let what some backwards hicks do in what they say is the Islamic way fool you. If you believe them, the terrorists win.

That's logic if I ever heard any. I'm offended that Bush won't protect US southern borders from active infiltration taking place--guess I should protest by burning Mexico to the ground?

No, but you can obviously strap on a gun and go play vigilante at the border and everyone will applaud you.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,399175,00.html
Have a read here. It's an alternative viewpoint in this whole thing, from a Western journalist in Istanbul. I may not agree with all of it, but he makes some reasonable points.
And in case you speak German, http://www.spiegel.de/politik/debatte/0,1518,399198,00.htmlI don't speak German, but the English translation was good. He has some good insights about provocation and such, but doesn't really say anything in conclusion, otehr than "both sides were dumb". Essentially, I don't know enough about Dnish society to understand the dynmic of the situation there - however, the condition that immigrants integrate or leave is on some level, justified. I don't know what level Denmark is at.

Some of the things he says are undoubtedly true, like:
In a short interview on the German public broadcaster ZDF, Al-Jazeera's German correspondent got straight to the point. For many years, Europe's Muslim immigrants have had the feeling, that they are constantly being criticized and that they no longer enjoy any respect whatsoever. This powder keg of frustration and anger is overflowing and any action could set it off. And that's just how Muslim immigrants in Europe feel. And that's also how Muslims elsewhere feel. There's a general feeling among Muslims that they are regarded by the West as Osama bin Laden's secret sympathizers.Yet I don't know how to think about this - clearly, most muslims are being tarred undeservedly. the frustration of being feared and resented is a positive feedback loop for behaviour that will illicit more fear and resentment. When you see ghettos from which riots, car-burning, and oppression of women issues, it's a little hard to give respect. When you hear about clerics in London and France preaching unspeakable hate and advocating terror, its hard not to be suspicious.

No, but you can obviously strap on a gun and go play vigilante at the border and everyone will applaud you.

For being a person that demands that the world doesn't stereotype the Muslims but regards them as individuals and moderates, you sure seem to take your fair share of pot shots at conservatives and conservative Christians in particular, whenever you get the chance. I hope you at least see the irony in that.

As to how Islam treats women:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy3.htm

It's an argument for Polygamy, claiming to be from a feminists point of view, an ideal of theirs:
I've often said that if polygamy didn't exist, the modern American career woman would have invented it. Because, despite its reputation, polygamy is the one lifestyle that offers an independent woman a real chance to "have it all."

I for one find their argument lacking, but hey, such things happen with us old fashioned people that think we should only have one spouse who we devote our lives to.

I have a couple comments

1st Damage to embassies have happened before. Remember when the US bombed the Chinese embasy during the Yugoslavian War. It is very suprising to see this type of reaction however, I however have heard no sympathy or denuciation from many world governments on attacking state religion. Although attacking a faith or attacking a state is little difference. See one dane sought to ridicule many people, so many people made Danish news, and i sure it was a headliner in Denmark. Isn't that funny, a burning embassy, oh I'm sure there can be some good cartoons out of that. Some things are serious to some people but when it is comical, it is ok I geuss. The act of being offensive to anyone is generally shunned. Making fun of the founder of a religion is generally not funny unless acceptable. It is on par with racism calling afracanoids niggers as per the olden days of KKK human sacrifices and burning crosses. Etc.. anyway I'm suprised this occured but I am suprised that the papers found this as news that was 'politically correct' it is not politically correct to support offensive racist or antifaith media, if that was a black person being whiped by a whiteman, saying blacks are slaves to the whites forever, some afracanoids may not appreciate that.

Of course the difference between taking the whip and fighting back is generally only seen as honourable by those that deplore the practices of the original offender.

As for anitsemitism we must remember that most middle eastern people are semites, it is just the therm antisemitism is attached to generaly jewry.

Being slanderous or libelous is generally not something newspapers of repute should endorse. Journalists just shoud NOT do that. Of course the world going all to hell isn't advisable either. Although 100 or 1000 peoples act in a body of 1000000000 is still not wholely representative but it can give you an idea to the feelings of perhaps a meaningful ammount being upset by being spit on and offended.

I for one find their argument lacking, but hey, such things happen with us old fashioned people that think we should only have one spouse who we devote our lives to.
AFAIK, that is the point in Islam as well. Of course there are many interpretations, but I heard that a Muslim man has to be able to support all the women he marries. Presumably that means both economically and emotionally.

I also heard that there is a maximum, but I suppose many men have gone above that over the centuries.

Again ... incidental. Christians simply enact legislation to get their way.

However, as I said to IDF, using "well they're worse" as an excuse is just adding fuel to the fire.
Considering we are talking about the rights to free speech and to the protection of private property, yes, the Christians did enact legislation years ago. It's time that the protesting Muslims learned to respect that method for change, as well as the principles themselves.

I'm beginning to realize that the reason more influential imams don't speak out against the violence isn't because they support it -- the violence is really a black eye on the face of Islam, but because they have absolutely no control over the uneducated, uncivilized, rabble that practice it. Islam is a religion out of control, right now.

It's time that the protesting Muslims learned to respect that method for change, as well as the principles themselves.

I will never accept the legislation of morality ... Muslim, Christian, or otherwise. If that makes me a barbarian, so be it.

Islam is a religion out of control, right now.

In a lot of ways, yes. It's very, very obnoxious. Do you have any idea what it's like watching the news, seeing something horrible happening, and thinking, "Oh great. Please don't let it be a Muslim doing it."

I will never accept the legislation of morality ... Muslim, Christian, or otherwise. If that makes me a barbarian, so be it.

In a lot of ways, yes. It's very, very obnoxious. Do you have any idea what it's like watching the news, seeing something horrible happening, and thinking, "Oh great. Please don't let it be a Muslim doing it."

Well, it's very remotely related to the feeling of being a born again Christian, and hoping that Pat Robertson won't open his mouth or that some wacko won't bomb an abortion clinic. Or even that some politician won't put drapery over a naked statue of Justice.

But I don't disavow that Pat says he's a Christian - he's just a very bad Christian. And there's no hope that people like him will drop off the face of the Earth without a push.

Same with Muslims who give other Muslims a bad name.

We, the people who present ourselves as "the good" are responsible for the behavior of others - Muslims and non-Muslims alike are responsible for the behavior of radical Muslims. Christians and non-Christians alike are responsible for the irresponsible ravings of Pat Robertson.

Yes, we would all like to be tolerant - of ideas and actions. But we have to step up and draw a line somewhere.

Ya know ... I gotta applaud this thread. It's been civilized, courteous, open, and intelligent. A little heated here and there, but no flaming or personal attacks.

Surprising for a thread of this nature on this forum. ;)

Kudos to everyone. Hope it stays this good.

Ya know ... I gotta applaud this thread. It's been civilized, courteous, open, and intelligent. A little heated here and there, but no flaming or personal attacks.

Surprising for a thread of this nature on this forum. ;)

Kudos to everyone. Hope it stays this good.

Oh, I'm waiting for Gauthier to show up and insist that I love what Ann Coulter has to say about Muslims.

Excuse my ignorance (or make fun of it, I don't really care), but why were the cartoons created in the first place?

Excuse my ignorance (or make fun of it, I don't really care), but why were the cartoons created in the first place?
IIRC, a Danish paper was exploring the idea of Muslim tolerance for free speech...

Obviously, the experiment was a complete success.

It may be stated that if you commit an act of public blasphemy as a non-believer, you're going to enrage far more Muslims with pointed blasphemy than you are Christians with pointed blasphemy.

More burnings, threats, violence, etc.

Not that all Muslims are acting out - and not that Christians aren't upset at blasphemy pointed towards their beliefs.

IIRC, a Danish paper was exploring the idea of Muslim tolerance for free speech...

Obviously, the experiment was a complete success.

It may be stated that if you commit an act of public blasphemy as a non-believer, you're going to enrage far more Muslims with pointed blasphemy than you are Christians with pointed blasphemy.

More burnings, threats, violence, etc.

Not that all Muslims are acting out - and not that Christians aren't upset at blasphemy pointed towards their beliefs.

Yes, Christians do tend to be more moderate on average. I think their experiment was a bit unnecessary considering you only have to use an Internet search to read about muslim theocracies.

Yes, Christians do tend to be more moderate on average. I think their experiment was a bit unnecessary considering you only have to use an Internet search to read about muslim theocracies.

It just goes to show you that I'll have to make another picture like this, only it will say "Europe" in the appropriate place.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/ta0001.jpg

Excuse my ignorance (or make fun of it, I don't really care), but why were the cartoons created in the first place?
From what I've read, there were some very violent threats against a children's book author. The book was about Islam and the author wanted to illustrate it and had difficulty finding an illustrator.

The Danish paper wanted to protest the intimidation and they solicited these cartoons. They may have bitten off a little more than they could chew. But the effect certainly has more than proved the cartoonists point.

DOn't know if it's been posted before, but people have been doing this for hundereds of years
http://info2us.dk/muhammed/

DOn't know if it's been posted before, but people have been doing this for hundereds of years
http://info2us.dk/muhammed/

I've got another question. These cartoons were originally published last October. Why are the protesters only now becoming furious?

I've got another question. These cartoons were originally published last October. Why are the protesters only now becoming furious?

Oh, it wouldn't be an orchestrated event, now, would it? :rolleyes:

Oh, it wouldn't be an orchestrated event, now, would it? :rolleyes:
That begs another question. If this isn't just spontaneous fury about some bad cartoons, what is the purpose? Just a little intimidation to show the free world that the Muslims are still there?

It's more than about a cartoon. This has been building for months. The flag burning, boycotts, and building fires are not a sudden violent reaction to some cartoons.

It is a reaction to a continual lack of common courtesy.

It will get worse before it gets better. Trust me.


I agree to a certain extent. Yes it is common courtesy, however if someone keeps doing something like that, one must assume the other party is purely going for the piss you off factor, and thus one should just walk away. Its the same way on the playground. A bully comes up to you and teases you because you have glasses. He does it every day. You ask him to stop nicely, but now he makes even more fun of you. Do you just hit him in the face or cuss him out? No, walk away. Eventually they will get tired of the non responsiveness and give up. That is exactly how the Islamic community should handle this situation, instead of punching the bully in the face.

DOn't know if it's been posted before, but people have been doing this for hundereds of years
http://info2us.dk/muhammed/

Eh. It's only the modern ones that get insulting and besides it was hard to get information before technology evolved.

Now Iran and Afganistan. I mean seriously, Jesus is bashed daily in the media. I've seen Christians complain, but they haven't commited acts of violence. I have no problems with Muslims calling for boycotts. That is actually a democratic move (voting with your wallets always is.) But, I do have a problem with them committing acts of violence. They have proved the critics of their religion right.

I applaud Sistani for condemning violence. This isn't a surprise. Ali Al-Sistani is always the first to do so. he is a rare voice of reason among the high profile religious leaders. If Muslims want to earn respect, they need to get more people like him into positions of power.

Now Iran and Afganistan. I mean seriously, Jesus is bashed daily in the media. I've seen Christians complain, but they haven't commited acts of violence. I have no problems with Muslims calling for boycotts. That is actually a democratic move (voting with your wallets always is.) But, I do have a problem with them committing acts of violence. They have proved the critics of their religion right.

I applaud Sistani for condemning violence. This isn't a surprise. Ali Al-Sistani is always the first to do so. he is a rare voice of reason among the high profile religious leaders. If Muslims want to earn respect, they need to get more people like him into positions of power.
To be even more fair, there have been a couple other voices that spoke out against the violence. One was an editor for a Paris paper. He was fired by the Muslim that owned the paper. Another was an editor in Jordan. He's collecting unemployment, as well.

As you say, respect is earned, not given without a reason. There's still some earning to do.

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