NationStates Jolt Archive

I recently wrote a paper on the academic debate surrounding Jared Diamond and his rather well-known, but controversial books. I was curious if anyone here had read them and was willing to share a few thoughts.

Personally, I think he's correct in outline, but that it's really impossible to be 100% right when, as in Guns, Germs and Steel, you're dealing with 'a short history of everyone for the last 13,000 years'. As a would-be historian, I'm interested but a little skeptical about his proposal to make history more scientific. I don't think the field really works that way, but people might disagree.

I found Collapse really interesting. Obviously environmental issues are highly politicized, and I don't expect everyone agrees with him. I'm a little curious especially to maybe hear a bit from an Australian ... is the environment really as bad down there as he claims? Personally, I thought the best chapters (and one of the best in any non-fiction I've ever read) were on the Norse in Greenland. Attitude counts just as much as environment. The Vikings could've survived, but they refused to learn from the Inuit. And thus, they died.

Just food for thought.

My Dad tried to push _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ onto me countless times. But pity he always mentioned its content. I didn't agree with some of it. I never did read it. blech.

I liked Guns, Germs and Steel very much (courtesy of my dad, he always gives me good books)

Indeed, the prospect of Europe facing an amphibious force fielding Rhinoceros cavalry, then disease and slavery, is a sobering one. It could indeed have been very different.

I got it for Christmas a few years back, and I bought Collapse a few months ago. It's also very interesting. I support the general message, and some of the individual chapters (especially the Greenland Norse, the Haiti/Dominican Republic and the Rwanda ones) are winners.

It's also interesting, because it seems to address some of the criticisms made by academic reviews of the book. For example, environmental determinism. Diamond makes it pretty clear that he considers the choices of societies in reacting to the environment extremely important.

Indeed, the prospect of Europe facing an amphibious force fielding Rhinoceros cavalry, then disease and slavery, is a sobering one. It could indeed have been very different.

Precisely. Although, given everything, I think a more likely change would've been if China had decided to keep with the treasure fleets. Or if Ogedei Khan had not died when he did, forcing the Mongols to return home to elect a new Khan, which probably saved Europe. Or perhaps if Hannibal had pressed his advantage after Cannae and besieged Rome. (although whether he would've succeeded is a question I can't quite answer)

I would also recommend Joseph A Tainter's Collapse of Complex Societies and related essays, perhaps the most comprehensive single work on the mechanics of collapse.

Jared Diamond signed my 1st edition of Guns Germs and Steel last night after his talk at my university.

Its probably the best and most important book written in the last decade on any subject.

Its truly an astonishing work.

My Dad tried to push _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ onto me countless times. But pity he always mentioned its content. I didn't agree with some of it. I never did read it. blech.


?

what exactly didn't you agree with?

New Grenada- You lucky bastard. You lucky, lucky bastard. :D

It's certainly up there for 'most important', in my opinion. It's probably been the biggest crossover success between the academic and the popular realm. I do have a few criticism of Diamond, but overall, I'd say it's an extremely welcome addition to the debate. His writing's pretty good too.

Another book, although on a different topic that I recommend is Paris 1919. It's one of the best history books I've ever read, and I learned some important things about Versailles. And why that damn Treaty continues to haunt us today.

New Grenada- You lucky bastard. You lucky, lucky bastard. :D

It's certainly up there for 'most important', in my opinion. It's probably been the biggest crossover success between the academic and the popular realm. I do have a few criticism of Diamond, but overall, I'd say it's an extremely welcome addition to the debate. His writing's pretty good too.

Another book, although on a different topic that I recommend is Paris 1919. It's one of the best history books I've ever read, and I learned some important things about Versailles. And why that damn Treaty continues to haunt us today.


He's a great public speaker too.

His writing can be a little repetitive, but its necessary, especially in GG&S, because of the rigor that has to be brought to something like that.

Is this the same Jared Diamond that wrote Why is sex fun? : the evolution of human sexuality?

Is this the same Jared Diamond that wrote Why is sex fun? : the evolution of human sexuality?
Apparently. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Diamond#Books)

Apparently. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Diamond#Books)

How odd, that book came across my radar today. I'd never even heard of the author or any of his books until now :confused:

Is this the same Jared Diamond that wrote Why is sex fun? : the evolution of human sexuality?

yep. also wrote "the third chimpanzee". and a great little article called "the worst mistake in the history of the human race"

I really enjoyed Collapse, thought Guns, Germs, and Steel was pretty good (though repetitive), and one of these days I want to pick up The Third Chimpanzee.

Love him or hate him, he is certainly thought provoking.

yep. also wrote "the third chimpanzee". and a great little article called "the worst mistake in the history of the human race"

Hmm, interesting.

After a quick search of my library catalogue it appears Collapse has been on order now for almost a year. Which is a shame, since it seems the most relevent to my course at the moment (I mean I could justify reading it, I'm sure I could crowbar it in somewhere)


(There are a couple of his other books too though, Why is Sex fun and The Third Chimpanzee. Would you recommend reading any of them?)

I read Guns, Germs and Steel. It's very thought provoking and certainly exposes interesting ideas. Of course, he himself mentions it, this is just a first attempt to understand why Europe and no some other region, and our knowledge of history is in constant flux, so better explanations may come up in the future.

Nevertheless, it's a very good read. I recommend it along with "The Wealth and Poverty of Nations" by David S. Landes.

I recently wrote a paper on the academic debate surrounding Jared Diamond and his rather well-known, but controversial books. I was curious if anyone here had read them and was willing to share a few thoughts.

Personally, I think he's correct in outline, but that it's really impossible to be 100% right when, as in Guns, Germs and Steel, you're dealing with 'a short history of everyone for the last 13,000 years'. As a would-be historian, I'm interested but a little skeptical about his proposal to make history more scientific. I don't think the field really works that way, but people might disagree.

I found Collapse really interesting. Obviously environmental issues are highly politicized, and I don't expect everyone agrees with him. I'm a little curious especially to maybe hear a bit from an Australian ... is the environment really as bad down there as he claims? Personally, I thought the best chapters (and one of the best in any non-fiction I've ever read) were on the Norse in Greenland. Attitude counts just as much as environment. The Vikings could've survived, but they refused to learn from the Inuit. And thus, they died.

Just food for thought.

I did a paper on it as well, I think you and I are in total agreement.
I found it to be (for the most part) quite correct.
That circumstance played a very large role in the success of certain civilizations.
Bah, good stuff.

I wonder what he'll follow up with. I should really get to reading The Third Chimpanzee and Why Is Sex Fun? sometime. Probably when I'm done this term.

(There are a couple of his other books too though, Why is Sex fun and The Third Chimpanzee. Would you recommend reading any of them?)

i'm sure i read the third chimpanzee, but i can't recall it specifically - i've read too many books in a similar vain, i suspect

Well, my department is putting together a custom reader for its composition classes, and our only problem with Diamond is which part of Collapse we want to excerpt. Someone mentioned above that he's repetitive in GG&S--he is, and sometimes painfully so, and had that book been done for anything other than the creative nonfiction market, it might have been justified. I loved the book, mind you, but damn did he need an editor to step on him a bit.

Not really related to this topic, but another hot nonfiction author I'm reading and really like right now is Malcolm Galdwell. Blink is utterly fascinating.

Mr Diamond certainly is a very good author and, speaking as a history graduate, I would have to agree with him that in certain areas historians could learn something from historians rather than squandering an excessive amount of time bandying about twenty-year-old philosophies that do not always add anything substantive to one's understanding of events. But perhaps that's just because where I went to university...

I recently wrote a paper on the academic debate surrounding Jared Diamond and his rather well-known, but controversial books. I was curious if anyone here had read them and was willing to share a few thoughts.

Personally, I think he's correct in outline, but that it's really impossible to be 100% right when, as in Guns, Germs and Steel, you're dealing with 'a short history of everyone for the last 13,000 years'. As a would-be historian, I'm interested but a little skeptical about his proposal to make history more scientific. I don't think the field really works that way, but people might disagree.

I found Collapse really interesting. Obviously environmental issues are highly politicized, and I don't expect everyone agrees with him. I'm a little curious especially to maybe hear a bit from an Australian ... is the environment really as bad down there as he claims? Personally, I thought the best chapters (and one of the best in any non-fiction I've ever read) were on the Norse in Greenland. Attitude counts just as much as environment. The Vikings could've survived, but they refused to learn from the Inuit. And thus, they died.

Just food for thought.


"Guns Germs and Steel" is genius, such a seemingly obvious explanation for things that have puzzled the more liberal members of the intelligensia (ie, how come if all races are equal, some developed quicker than others) for years. One of my all time favourite books.