NationStates Jolt Archive

Some other secular scholars are less willing to attribute the entire Qur'an to Muhammad, arguing that there is no real proof that the text of the Qur'an was collected under Uthman, since the earliest surviving copies of the complete Qur'an are centuries later than Uthman. (The oldest existing copy of the full text is from the ninth century [2].) They allege that Islam was formed slowly, over the centuries after the Muslim conquests, as the Islamic conquerors elaborated their beliefs in response to Jewish and Christian challenges. One influential proponent of this point of view was Dr. John Wansbrough, an English academic critic (since deceased). Wansbrough wrote in a dense, complex, almost hermetic style, and has had much more influence on Islamic studies through his students, Michael Cook and Patricia Crone, than he has through his own writings. In 1977 Crone and Cook published a book called Hagarism, which argued that,

"The Qur'an is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions." (Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, Cambridge, 1977, p. 18.)

Crap imitation of a crap thread.

2.5/10 for effort.
0/10 for originality

Crap imitation of a crap thread.

2.5/10 for effort.
0/10 for originality

Dixie Thunder got POOOOONED!!!

Leaving aside the fact that it's a copy-cat thread and likely to be inflamatory, it's an interesting subject.

Stealing my troll thread!!! Grr

This thread has been rated:
2/10 for uniqueness
3/10 for satirical content
2/10 for immitation

Total: 7

Rating: Megh

Leaving aside the fact that it's a copy-cat thread and likely to be inflamatory, it's an interesting subject.
Exactly!

my point is, let people believe in something, who cares if it is a lie? You don't have to believe in it? I am not in the church of latter day saints, but I don't start threads about how the Book of Morman is a bunch of bullshit.

All religious books are lies. Only humans with a herd(sheep) instinct fall for that crap.

Stealing my troll thread!!! Grr
so you're admitting that your Bible is a lie thread is active Trolling? Nice... :rolleyes:

tho would be interesting to see if the same level of discussion is reached on this thread.

so you're admitting that your Bible is a lie thread is active Trolling? Nice... :rolleyes:

No, im playing along with the fact people think its trolling and it would be stupid to try and say "No im not" cos they go "Haha troll." and its like "...k. well you obviously have issues."so i'll just say its a troll thread, do people still use it? YES, because frankly they dont care and its only the WannabeMods that go "Troll! have a link!" so screw them, if they had any sense they wouldnt post on the thread and they would let it die.

No, im playing along with the fact people think its trolling and it would be stupid to try and say "No im not" cos they go "Haha troll." and its like "...k. well you obviously have issues."so i'll just say its a troll thread, do people still use it? YES, because frankly they dont care and its only the WannabeMods that go "Troll! have a link!" so screw them, if they had any sense they wouldnt post on the thread and they would let it die.don't really care... I posted my piece there.

All religious books are lies. Only humans with a herd(sheep) instinct fall for that crap.

Except mystics, ascetics and hesychasts, who are almost always completely uncompromising.. my church actually encouages that kind of thing.. striving for individual communication and enlightenment.. see, it's not just Buddhists who believe in enlightenment. Differenct variation, but still. :p

Despite the fact its a blatant copy of my thread it is an entirely different issue.

Despite the fact its a blatant copy of my thread it is an entirely different issue.
and the type of responses are interesting. nothing to deny the claim, just snide remarks about the fact that it's a copy... as if everyone agrees...

BTW, I know nothing about the Qur'an not even how it's supposed to be spelt. which is why I'm just lurking.

All religious books are lies. Only humans with a herd(sheep) instinct fall for that crap.

Are you insane?

Are you insane?
Clearly he is.




Everybody knows it's a "flock" of Sheep.

and the type of responses are interesting. nothing to deny the claim, just snide remarks about the fact that it's a copy... as if everyone agrees...

BTW, I know nothing about the Qur'an not even how it's supposed to be spelt. which is why I'm just lurking.

القرآن

anything else would be a perversion.

(I hope it turns out ok)

Clearly he is.




Everybody knows it's a "flock" of Sheep.

Giggling.

For the love of...

Are we still debating this? Although I find my self unaligned to any religion at all I start to find this self styled mantle of smugness of atheist to be quite annoying.

So what if you attack the inconsistensies of their holy books, I'm not shouting around to the whole world that I'm able to shoot an elaphant from a point blank range.

Also I want to stress this: Do not attack a religion with scientific argument especially when you try to disproof their respective diety. It cannot be attacked with the scientific method because they do not correspond within the rules of the scientific method.

Science and religion have both inspired mankind to achieve great feats, but they shouldn't meddle with another or else they end up looking silly.

No, im playing along with the fact people think its trolling and it would be stupid to try and say "No im not" cos they go "Haha troll." and its like "...k. well you obviously have issues."so i'll just say its a troll thread, do people still use it? YES, because frankly they dont care and its only the WannabeMods that go "Troll! have a link!" so screw them, if they had any sense they wouldnt post on the thread and they would let it die.

Sounds more to me like you got caught in the act and are backtracking.

Exactly!

my point is, let people believe in something, who cares if it is a lie? You don't have to believe in it? I am not in the church of latter day saints, but I don't start threads about how the Book of Morman is a bunch of bullshit.

You should do. The angel MORON? For crying out loud.

Are you insane?

Let me put it this way: I agree completely and I am. :D

Let me put it this way: I agree completely and I am. :D
I disagree LG... you're as sane as I am. :D

I disagree LG... you're as sane as I am. :D

Then you're a nutcase. :p

Then you're a nutcase. :p>.>
<.<
*takes Peanut shells outta his pants*
hey I aint F*@king Nuts.

>.>
<.<
*takes Peanut shells outta his pants*
hey I aint F*@king Nuts.

Ever been in one of these?
http://www.kshs.org/cool3/graphics/straitjacketsm.jpg

Ever been in one of these?
http://www.kshs.org/cool3/graphics/straitjacketsm.jpg
ewww.... the stripes just makes it tacky...

The set I have on right now is a nice solid pastel color.

ewww.... the stripes just makes it tacky...

The set I have on right now is a nice solid pastel color.

They can't hold me. I keep escaping from them. *nod* :D

They can't hold me. I keep escaping from them. *nod* :D
yep.. I just stay for the food, the entertainment... but when it gets boring... :rolleyes:

Oh. but back to topic.

how can Muslims say that their Religion is about peace and love when entire nations encourage martydom?

Are you insane?

No he's not.

Oh. but back to topic.

how can Muslims say that their Religion is about peace and love when entire nations encourage martydom?

The same way the Christians do it.

The same way the Christians do it.



ooooooooo BURN


seriously though, i agree with the guy that says science and religion shouldn't mix.

Let people have their beliefs, no matter how silly they may be. Honestly I don't give a shit about what people believe or even if they believe anything, thats their business not mine. Like if I was in a Movie theatre watching brokeback mountain and two guys next to me started making out, thats their business and I'd try to ignore it. (have no desire to see that movie but just using it for the Imagery)

The same way the Christians do it.
sorry, but Christians hold Suicide as a sin. they are not encouraged to go and blow themselves up to gain access to paradise.

ooooooooo BURN


seriously though, i agree with the guy that says science and religion shouldn't mix.

Let people have their beliefs, no matter how silly they may be. Honestly I don't give a shit about what people believe or even if they believe anything, thats their business not mine. Like if I was in a Movie theatre watching brokeback mountain and two guys next to me started making out, thats their business and I'd try to ignore it. (have no desire to see that movie but just using it for the Imagery)for me, it depends on the level of making out.

kissing and fondling... ok.

whiping them out and slaping the salami... sorry, but the theater is not for that. even if it were two women or one guy and girl.

sorry, but Christians hold Suicide as a sin. they are not encouraged to go and blow themselves up to gain access to paradise.

True. Christians can sacrifice their lives for a cause, but someone else has to do the actual killing. *nod*

Pics from the "protests" in UK.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060203BritishMuslims04.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r288321482.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r1840893195.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060203BritishMuslims-ps.jpg.

"Behead those who say Islam is Violent"




I fell right of my computer chair laughing at that one.

.

To be fair those protests were organised by a group of notoriously radical mosques (in Bradford I think but I could be wrong). The Muslim Council of Britain has explicitly condemned the use of violence time and time again.

"Behead those who say Islam is Violent"




I fell right of my computer chair laughing at that one.

:p

sorry, but Christians hold Suicide as a sin.

So do Muslims

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060203BritishMuslims-ps.jpg

tee hee :D

I should replace my Malcolm X quote with that .... that's hilarious.

So do Muslims
now this I want to believe.

so how can a cleric like Bin Lauden (He is still a "priest" right?) then claim that to kill a suicide bomber will go to heaven?

(not an attack but an honest question.)

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060203BritishMuslims-ps.jpg

and

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/behead.jpg

See the difference?

so how can a cleric like Bin Lauden (He is still a "priest" right?) then claim that to kill a suicide bomber will go to heaven?


Bin Laden's an asshole, not a priest. Only idiots and the self-delusional listen to him and believe his word.

Don't fall into the same trap and believe him yourself.

We all get them. Remember the Rev. Jim Jones? Damn fine preacher, classically trained, very educated .... suicide encouraged and followed through.

See the difference?

Yeah ... the second one isn't as funny.

Bin Laden's an asshole, not a priest. Only idiots and the self-delusional listen to him and believe his word.

Don't fall into the same trap and believe him yourself.

We all get them. Remember the Rev. Jim Jones? Damn fine preacher, classically trained, very educated .... suicide encouraged and followed through.Great. I heard somewhere that he had some sort of religious position. :rolleyes:

yep, but Jim Jones tried to create new sect of Christianity. Think when the Baptist were form all those years ago...

however, seeing the amount of Suicide Bombing going on... someone is still pushing and alot of people are listening. If the Quor'an (what is the official English spelling of it anyway?) preaches tolerance and peace, Including the fact that Suicide is a sin, why are there so many apparently not following it?

and is there scripture (if that's what it's called) that does state that Suicide is a sin? and does this hold even when situations seem to call for martydom?

Great. I heard somewhere that he had some sort of religious position. :rolleyes:

No more so than any Muslim man.

yep, but Jim Jones tried to create new sect of Christianity. Think when the Baptist were form all those years ago...

Aye ... and Bin Laden is off on his own rant as well.

however, seeing the amount of Suicide Bombing going on... someone is still pushing and alot of people are listening.

It's probably not as much as you think. A lot of the bombings are remote, not suicide. The secular group, Tamil Tigers, still holds the lock on suicide bombing.

If the Quor'an (what is the official English spelling of it anyway?) preaches tolerance and peace, Including the fact that Suicide is a sin, why are there so many apparently not following it?

Qur'an or Koran are both acceptable.

Anyway, to answer you, it's the same reason there are so many Christians in the world who follow Paul's writings rather than Jesus's teachings. We call it ignorance.

and is there scripture (if that's what it's called) that does state that Suicide is a sin? and does this hold even when situations seem to call for martydom?

Well, first of all, Martyrdom is only acheived by dieing in the cause of Allah. Killing the innocent, spreading mischeif, and being a general nuisance is not the cause of Allah.

"Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah." (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

Nice little article from an unbiased source here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter14.htm

Well, first of all, Martyrdom is only acheived by dieing in the cause of Allah. Killing the innocent, spreading mischeif, and being a general nuisance is not the cause of Allah.

"Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah." (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

Nice little article from an unbiased source here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter14.htm
Great... will check it out.

Last question for the day... is the Religion called Islam or Muslim? for some reason, I wanna get that right. :p

I'm wanting to start a thread to compare the similarites and differences between Islam(muslim) and Christianity, interested?

Last question for the day... is the Religion called Islam or Muslim? for some reason, I wanna get that right. :p

The religion is Islam, the adherents are Muslim. :) I am Muslim, I practise Islam.

I'm wanting to start a thread to compare the similarites and differences between Islam(muslim) and Christianity, interested?

Always!

now this I want to believe.

so how can a cleric like Bin Lauden (He is still a "priest" right?) then claim that to kill a suicide bomber will go to heaven?

(not an attack but an honest question.)

suicide bombers commit suicide in the same way that soldiers do when one brave man storms a machinegun nest and gets killed with the same grenade that takes out the enemy (i think ive seen too many ww2 movies)

its not "suicide" if you are striking a blow for islam

now the killing of innocent women and children in such an attack IS a sin in islam. i dont know how they justify that part.