NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, Hugo Chavez is a crazy one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

And the US/Venezuelan relationship has kind of gone down hill since Chavez took control of Venezuela...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_venezuela

Cindy Sheehan lost the little respect and sympathy I had for her when she met with this tool. The guy is the 21st Century Castro.

Thoughts...???

The guy is the 21st Century Castro.
And Castro is the 21st Century who?

Okay, Hugo Chavez is a crazy one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

And the US/Venezuelan relationship has kind of gone down hill since Chavez took control of Venezuela...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_venezuela

Cindy Sheehan lost the little respect and sympathy I had for her when she met with this tool. The guy is the 21st Century Castro.

Thoughts...???
The relationship between Hugo Chavez and the USA is a symbiotic one. He gives us cheap oil, we give him propaganda material that he can use to deflect any criticism at home.

The relationship between Hugo Chavez and the USA is a symbiotic one. He gives us cheap oil, we give him propaganda material that he can use to deflect any criticism at home.
I thought Venezuela was part of OPEC and all OPEC countries went by a set price?

And Castro is the 21st Century who?
You know, Fidel Castro... Leader/President/Dictator of Cuba

I thought Venezuela was part of OPEC and all OPEC countries went by a set price?
Chavez has been shipping cheap fuel oil to poor Americans. Then when the oil is accepted, as it has been by Massachusetts, I think, he tells his people that it's evidence that the common American can't afford to heat his house and Venezuelans have it great by comparison.

His policies are not as dumb as they sound. They are deliberately populist.

Chavez bought books for every household in Venezuela, and struck a deal with Cuba to import a whole army of doctors to serve the poor districts of Venezuelan cities, thus creating those areas' first public health service.

So at a stroke he says to the country's poor, I care about your health and education. Anything he says about international conspiracies, they're not really going to care. Health and literacy come first. After that, getting 70% in any election or referendum is easy. He is not at all undemocratic, he is simply very good at playing the democratic system. Hell, if I was living in a tin shack and someone did that for me, I'd vote for them too, even if they did believe in an international conspiracy.

You know, Fidel Castro... Leader/President/Dictator of Cuba
Nah, you missed the point.

I don't see how Chavez could be the 'new' Castro when Castro is still about. If he is, who is Castro the 'new' of?

Nah, you missed the point.

I don't see how Chavez could be the 'new' Castro when Castro is still about. If he is, who is Castro the 'new' of?
Castro is the new black. Fashionable women will soon be wearing Castro.

Castro is the new black. Fashionable women will soon be wearing Castro.

Ugh, your totally right. Black is sOoOo five minutes ago.

His policies are not as dumb as they sound. They are deliberately populist.

Chavez bought books for every household in Venezuela, and struck a deal with Cuba to import a whole army of doctors to serve the poor districts of Venezuelan cities, thus creating those areas' first public health service.

So at a stroke he says to the country's poor, I care about your health and education. Anything he says about international conspiracies, they're not really going to care. Health and literacy come first. After that, getting 70% in any election or referendum is easy. He is not at all undemocratic, he is simply very good at playing the democratic system. Hell, if I was living in a tin shack and someone did that for me, I'd vote for them too, even if they did believe in an international conspiracy.
I am all for social programs. He has done great things to improve the living standards of the poor in his country and great strides have been made in the education arena. It seems as if he is almost trying to pick a fight with the US over no reason in particular, and when we do not invade him he will spin it to look like we do not have the ability to take him out. I realize the US has done some really shitty things in Latin American history, some recent, others not so recent. I seriously view this guy as the biggest threat to the US, may beyond North Korea or Iran (and this guy is actively trying to get stronger relationships with those countries). In addition to that, the southern US boarder isn't exactly secure right now.

Nah, you missed the point.

I don't see how Chavez could be the 'new' Castro when Castro is still about. If he is, who is Castro the 'new' of?

Okay, got ya.

As foreign policy goes, we are not really concerned what Cuba does.
As foreign policy goes, we are concerned what Chavez does.

I seriously view this guy as the biggest threat to the US, may beyond North Korea or Iran (and this guy is actively trying to get stronger relationships with those countries). In addition to that, the southern US boarder isn't exactly secure right now.
Venezuela has no army, no air force, and no navy. Its "army" is barely effective as riot police. Plus there's quite a few countries in the way. The "threat" you speak of is merely a vague feeling of menace whipped up by the media.

Venezuela has no army, no air force, and no navy. Its "army" is barely effective as riot police. Plus there's quite a few countries in the way. The "threat" you speak of is merely a vague feeling of menace whipped up by the media.

Yes there are quite a few contries in the way

But I do not think the Venezuelan army is any pushover, especially how spread out the US military currently is...

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/venezuela/ve_appen.html#table13

But I do not think the Venezuelan army is any pushover, especially how spread out the US military currently is...
I still do not see how Venezuela could invade the US. It is too absurd for words. I am looking forward to the Moroccan invasion of Spain and Serbia's invasion of the UK.

I still do not see how Venezuela could invade the US. It is too absurd for words. I am looking forward to the Moroccan invasion of Spain and Serbia's invasion of the UK.

I am not talking about an invasion per se, I am talking about using their military influence to turn all of Latin America against the US.

I am not talking about an invasion per se, I am talking about using their military influence to turn all of Latin America against the US.
They don't need to use their military for that. They just use the US' record of involvement in Latin America.

They don't need to use their military for that. They just use the US' record of involvement in Latin America.

Or the US record of protecting the western hemisphere to counter that (see the Monroe Doctrine)

Or the US record of protecting the western hemisphere to counter that (see the Monroe Doctrine)
They see the Monroe Doctrine as saying something along the lines of "Europe, Latin America belongs to the USA. Hands off, we're getting rich off of this territory."

Or the US record of protecting the western hemisphere to counter that (see the Monroe Doctrine)Actually...this "protection" is often seen as the "interference" in sovereign affairs that Latin American countries complain of.

I am not talking about an invasion per se, I am talking about using their military influence to turn all of Latin America against the US.
They do not have "military influence". No country in South America has any such thing. No country in South America even has an outright economic lever over the others. Brazil may be the biggest economy, but they do not even come close to dominating the continent. And the continent "turning against the US" would constitute what, exactly? America's biggest ally there, Colombia, floods the US with drugs and fuels half its crime. What could say, Argentina do? Or Chile? Default on a loan? Give the EU a better price on beef? Get a sense of proportion. The biggest threat to the US is financial - SE Asia adopting the Euro as a reserve currency, or OPEC allowing non-dollar transactions. It's on the electronic markets that you could get wiped out before you had a chance to react.

And Castro is the 21st Century who?
Castro is an interesting specimen.

Castro is an interesting specimen.
Yes, but a specimen of what?

Oy vey.... A bunch of American propaganda leaks into everything these days, where should I start?

First of all, Chavez was democratically elected, TWICE, and you could even say three times because the people who tried to democratically oust him failed.

Even more than that, his constitution reform was approved of by the people.

He's making his country a richer place for everyone, he gives us cheap oil, he's a socialist. He's no Jesus but I think he's what South America needs to throw off the shackles from America. I truly believe he will make his country a better place.

Oy vey.... A bunch of American propaganda leaks into everything these days, where should I start?

First of all, Chavez was democratically elected, TWICE, and you could even say three times because the people who tried to democratically oust him failed.

Even more than that, his constitution reform was approved of by the people.

He's making his country a richer place for everyone, he gives us cheap oil, he's a socialist. He's no Jesus but I think he's what South America needs to throw off the shackles from America. I truly believe he will make his country a better place.
I believe he will bankrupt his country.

I believe he will bankrupt his country.
I know, it's a disgrace. That's our job.

I believe he will bankrupt his country.

I believe that he will save it.

Only time will tell.

I know, it's a disgrace. That's our job.

ROFLMFAO!!! :p

Okay, Hugo Chavez is a crazy one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

Indeed, he's really a crazy man. He's doing promise to people to get elected (until then, no problem), but once he's elected, he keeps them and implements them ! What a crazy man !

Look, he has taken back the profits of the oil of his country and he's using it to build schools and hospitals ! He's feeding his people, teaching them how to read, and providing them with healthcare ! Definetly crazy, when he could took all the profits for himself and his friends.

And what ? He accepted to run a recall referendum, even if the opposition cheated on the petition ? And he accepted international observers so he couldn't cheat the vote ! Isn't that amongst the craziest thing a politician could do ? But... he won ! With 59%...

And the US/Venezuelan relationship has kind of gone down hill since Chavez took control of Venezuela...

Of course. Bush doesn't tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with him. Remember how he bullied his european "friends" when they refused to invade Irak with him ?

And for South America, remember that the CIA has a long history of removing by force presidents who are a bit too much to the left (remember september 11 ... 1973 ?)

They are at the complete opposite of the political spectrum. It's expected that they don't like each other much. How could you expect things to be all fine between a far-right-wing president ready to remove by force anyone whom he doesn't like and not caring an inch about international laws, and a left-wing president, peace-supporter, but afraid of being removed by force as many already were ? (and has some tried, remember the 2002 coup attempt).

But that doesn't prevent Chavez from helping the victims of Katarina, nor of providing poorest US citizen with cheap oil. Chavez has nothing against US citizen, even he is a political ennemy of Bush.

Castro is the new black. Fashionable women will soon be wearing Castro.

Yay! :D

Venezuela has no army, no air force, and no navy. Its "army" is barely effective as riot police. Plus there's quite a few countries in the way. The "threat" you speak of is merely a vague feeling of menace whipped up by the media.

The threat is political, not military. For long, USA had a nearly complete control over South America, after kicking out anyone who displeased them during the 60s and 70s. Chavez is challenging that.

Look at the latest "Americas Submit". Bush wanted to impose to South America a free-trade agrement so US corporation could plunder them a bit more. Chavez leaded the resistance against it, proposing his own ALBA (Bolivarian Alternative for Latin America) instead. And most countries chose to second Chavez more than Bush.

That's the threat. American imperialism over South America is being shaken. South America is awaking, and tired to be a puppet. They don't want anymore the "washington consensus" of neoliberal policies they followed during the 80s and 90s, which leaded to a skyrocketing of poverty (look at Argentina, the "model pupil" of the IMF). They want something else, and Chavez is giving them hope.

Venezuela invading USA is just an absurdity. South America freeing itself from US imperalism and following a completly different road, much more to the left, is what is happening right now, and Chavez is a major player in this. That's why he's a threat for neocons.

right. are you refering to the imperialist america that removed communists from Grenada or a dictator from Panama? Or the one that built, serviced, then gave away the single biggest moneymaker in Central America-the Panama Canal? Or the one that has saved the lives of tens of millions from starvation and disease? Just wondering.

I am all for social programs. He has done great things to improve the living standards of the poor in his country and great strides have been made in the education arena. It seems as if he is almost trying to pick a fight with the US over no reason in particular, and when we do not invade him he will spin it to look like we do not have the ability to take him out. I realize the US has done some really shitty things in Latin American history, some recent, others not so recent. I seriously view this guy as the biggest threat to the US, may beyond North Korea or Iran (and this guy is actively trying to get stronger relationships with those countries). In addition to that, the southern US boarder isn't exactly secure right now.

He is a threat, oky. But just if the US wants to continue to spy and finance cups in Latin America. If you want the US to have an imperial/colonial role in Venezuela, than Chávez is a real threat.
But it is more about the kind of US you want than something that Chávez is doing. In fact, Chávez had good relations with Clinton.
Chávez attacking the US southern border? I bet soon we will face "proves" that Chávez has WMD.

he's not after the border--he's after America's dependence on oil

right. are you refering to the imperialist america that removed communists from Grenada or a dictator from Panama? Or the one that built, serviced, then gave away the single biggest moneymaker in Central America-the Panama Canal? Or the one that has saved the lives of tens of millions from starvation and disease? Just wondering.

Stop a minute and try to figure out why latin americans see the US as an evil force:

Argentina (1976) - US financed cup (conservative/nationalist president)
Brazil (1964) - US financed cup (populist/democratic president)
Chile (1973) - US led cup (democratic/lef wing marxist president)
Peru (1975)- US financed cup (nationalist president)
Cuba (1961) - US financed invasion (FAILED) (your beloved Fidel)
Paraguay - US financed cup (conservative president)
El Salvador - US militar intervention (marxist revolution)
Venezuela (2002) - US financed cup (FAILED) (democratic/left wing)
etc, etc. ETC.

If you want, we can talk about Noriega (Panama), that well know CIA agent and droug dealer that grew to ambitious. Or we can talk about international law and the US "right to invade Granada" and kill a "small pack of evil fidelistas".

our trying to protect those unable to stand for themselves couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, now could it?

or should I remind you that America supproted Hussein during the cold war. We made a mistake. We're fixing it right now.

or maybe bin Laden's right to "invade" America and kill a "small number of infidels"

we supported bin Laden too--look at the price we paid for it

I'd rather we wern't wrong about things like that again

Stop a minute and try to figure out why latin americans see the US as an evil force:

Argentina (1976) - US financed cup (conservative/nationalist president)
Brazil (1964) - US financed cup (populist/democratic president)
Chile (1973) - US led cup (democratic/lef wing marxist president)
Peru (1975)- US financed cup (nationalist president)
Cuba (1961) - US financed invasion (FAILED) (your beloved Fidel)
Paraguay - US financed cup (conservative president)
El Salvador - US militar intervention (marxist revolution)
Venezuela (2002) - US financed cup (FAILED) (democratic/left wing)
etc, etc. ETC.

If you want, we can talk about Noriega (Panama), that well know CIA agent and droug dealer that grew to ambitious. Or we can talk about international law and the US "right to invade Granada" and kill a "small pack of evil fidelistas".

Two excellent posts, welcome to the forum.:)

our trying to protect those unable to stand for themselves couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, now could it?

or should I remind you that America supproted Hussein during the cold war. We made a mistake. We're fixing it right now.

I am quite sure you are not a soviet commie :) I just hope you can see how similar your ideas are about less powerfull nations. "Protect those unable to stand for themselves" was the Soviet Union motto to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia. As you can imagine, the polish people found the soviet protection quite an odd one. Now, try to imagine how venezuelans fell about US trying to overthrow their elected president.

Two excellent posts, welcome to the forum.:)

Thanks man. First time here (testing my broken English skills).
Maybe I am a little too passionate over Chávez, but I watched very closely the failed cup against him.

Thanks man. First time here (testing my broken English skills).
Maybe I am a little too passionate over Chávez, but I watched very closely the failed cup against him.

Me too... and it reminded me so much of Allende... sure, I wasn't born at Allende time, but what happened in Chile in 1973 still have a lot of emotional weight on french lefties... I've always tears in my eyes when I see the Quilapayun (a leftish music band from Chile who survived because September 11, 1973, because that day, they were playing in France... and they staid here since).

And it's always a lot of emotions when I see people who weren't born at that time (like me) singing "El pueblo, unido, jamas sera vencido !", as we do often in left-wing demonstrations. As a chilean said, "All those of years of dictatorship, terror, repression, murder and torture didn't kill the seed of hope that Allende once planted in our heart."

So when I see US trying to do the same in Venezuela, I yell as loud as I can: "Not again ! Hands off Venezuela ! Let them follow the path they chose !"

Venezuela has no army, no air force, and no navy. Its "army" is barely effective as riot police. Plus there's quite a few countries in the way. The "threat" you speak of is merely a vague feeling of menace whipped up by the media.
If they don't have an AF, then why in the hell have they purchaced dozens of MiG-29 Fulcrums?

If they don't have an AF, then why in the hell have they purchaced dozens of MiG-29 Fulcrums?

Maybe they're planning to get one. Given the US's record of interferring in South America I wouldn't be surprised.

AFAIK venezuala is the source of most of the worlds theobroma criollo. (Well some comes also from peru and mexico). It's a matter of grave concern. Probably.

I am quite sure you are not a soviet commie :) I just hope you can see how similar your ideas are about less powerfull nations. "Protect those unable to stand for themselves" was the Soviet Union motto to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia. As you can imagine, the polish people found the soviet protection quite an odd one. Now, try to imagine how venezuelans fell about US trying to overthrow their elected president.

nations "helped" by the USSR paid heavily for the "support"
nations helped by the USA kept their freedom

nations "helped" by the USSR paid heavily for the "support"
nations helped by the USA kept their freedom

Would that include the nations where the USA helped right-wing dictators to gain power so they would attack the democratically elected lefties?

Maybe they're planning to get one. Given the US's record of interferring in South America I wouldn't be surprised.

yet Chile just became the 28th nation to field the American F-16. maybe they're afraid of someone interfering with them and I don't think it's the Americans they're worried about

AFAIK venezuala is the source of most of the worlds theobroma criollo. (Well some comes also from peru and mexico). It's a matter of grave concern. Probably.

Is that cocaine?

Is that cocaine?
No, it's some kind of tea-like plant

Would that include the nations where the USA helped right-wing dictators to gain power so they would attack the democratically elected lefties?

Germany 1934 taught us what happens if we go along with everyone elected by democratic means

No, it's some kind of tea-like plant

I thought that tea-like plant was one of the main ingredients in cocaine, or am I barking up completely the wrong tree?

I thought that tea-like plant was one of the main ingredients in cocaine, or am I barking up completely the wrong tree?
Cocaine is Erythroxylum coca

Germany 1934 taught us what happens if we go along with everyone elected by democratic means

Excuse me? You're comparing a world war and the Holocaust to the nationalisation of natural resources which are being plundered by foreign companies?

And I don't think you read all of my post, the US frequently installed puppet dictators who had no respect for human rights but who enjoyed US support.

Cocaine is Erythroxylum coca

Meh, fair enough.

Is that cocaine?
Turns out it's chocolate. My bad.

No, it's some kind of tea-like plant

No, it's chocolate. Theobroma criollo is a particular species of cacao bean, and it's the most valuable variety of cacao; only 10% of the world's chocolate is made from it, but it is the most valuable.

No, it's chocolate. Theobroma criollo is a particular species of cacao bean, and it's the most valuable variety of cacao; only 10% of the world's chocolate is made from it, but it is the most valuable.
Yeah, I looked it up. Theobroma kinda threw me off since Theobromine is present in tea as well as chocolate and the genus name made me think of the alkaloid.

Me too... and it reminded me so much of Allende... sure, I wasn't born at Allende time, but what happened in Chile in 1973 still have a lot of emotional weight on french lefties... I've always tears in my eyes when I see the Quilapayun (a leftish music band from Chile who survived because September 11, 1973, because that day, they were playing in France... and they staid here since).

And it's always a lot of emotions when I see people who weren't born at that time (like me) singing "El pueblo, unido, jamas sera vencido !", as we do often in left-wing demonstrations. As a chilean said, "All those of years of dictatorship, terror, repression, murder and torture didn't kill the seed of hope that Allende once planted in our heart."

So when I see US trying to do the same in Venezuela, I yell as loud as I can: "Not again ! Hands off Venezuela ! Let them follow the path they chose !"

thanks for just opening my eyes to that.. i was thinking, is this like what happened in chile?.... i'll be with you shouting.

Excuse me? You're comparing a world war and the Holocaust to the nationalisation of natural resources which are being plundered by foreign companies?

And I don't think you read all of my post, the US frequently installed puppet dictators who had no respect for human rights but who enjoyed US support.

I'm comparing Democratic elections, a World War, the Holocaust, US history of bad judgement (Hussein and bin Laden), the price we paid for said bad judgement, and the inability of the human race to look into the future. were we not so isolationistic at the time, Hitler probably would have been lauded in the US as a stabilizing force for the Weinmar republic. Just because we cannot see all ends does not mean we should wait and see until it is too late like Neville Chamberlin did

I'm comparing Democratic elections, a World War, the Holocaust, US history of bad judgement (Hussein and bin Laden), the price we paid for said bad judgement, and the inability of the human race to look into the future. were we not so isolationistic at the time, Hitler probably would have been lauded in the US as a stabilizing force for the Weinmar republic. Just because we cannot see all ends does not mean we should wait and see until it is too late like Neville Chamberlin did

Come off it. The US had no altruistic reasons for most of it's regime changes, it was economic interest and nothing more.

Saying "That democratic government might in the future become autocratic, lets invade and install a puppet dictator now" just doesn't work.

Come off it. The US had no altruistic reasons for most of it's regime changes, it was economic interest and nothing more.

Saying "That democratic government might in the future become autocratic, lets invade and install a puppet dictator now" just doesn't work.

i'm not on it

the point of what I just said was that we've learned from what we've done
we now know that freedom alone can replace oppression.

and, as i've been saying, we've paid dearly for these lessons

Castro re-wrote the constitution of Venezuela, making it so he can be president till 2020 or something like that. Hells, in the most recent elections, he won because the opposition parties didn't participate, citing the fact that they would probably not gain any seats due to the fact he'd screw around with the electoral process. If he just stayed at his social programs, instead of talking about how America is a great evil and making alliances will all these socialist nations everywhere, I'd be fine with him. But Amnesty Int'l and other groups have documented numerous human rights abuses under his leadership. He is also anti-semetic (source (http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/content.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=312458&content_id={17D5A467-8F24-4ADA-BCD3-DE4476D7F462}&notoc=1))

Also, he isn't as popular as every says he is. Yes, he has the support of alot of people, but it's not as if everyone in Venezuela is pro-chavez. I know plenty of people who used to live in Venezuela that are pretty pissed off at what Chavez is doing, calling him a dictator and stuff. You don't HAVE to be radically anti-american to make good social program. Hell, here in Panama, we have a 98% literacy rate! 98%! That's more than the United States! Panama doesn't even have oil, and it has a first-world city of a million people as it's capital (Panama City = Miami, but with more Spanish). Yes, there is a bit of a class divide, but the governments have been aiming to change that. The last government pushed Panama back a bit, yes, with rampant corruption and such, but Martin Torrijos, son of the populist dictator from the 1970's, has led Panama well.

let me ask how you feel about Norriega's removal by US forces

Yeah Chavez is anti-semetic. I was wondering why Ocean Drive is in love with the guy. That explains it.

Castro re-wrote the constitution of Venezuela, making it so he can be president till 2020 or something like that. Hells, in the most recent elections, he won because the opposition parties didn't participate, citing the fact that they would probably not gain any seats due to the fact he'd screw around with the electoral process. If he just stayed at his social programs, instead of talking about how America is a great evil and making alliances will all these socialist nations everywhere, I'd be fine with him. But Amnesty Int'l and other groups have documented numerous human rights abuses under his leadership. He is also anti-semetic (source (http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/content.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=312458&content_id={17D5A467-8F24-4ADA-BCD3-DE4476D7F462}&notoc=1))

Could I have a source for these allegations of election rigging? I think your comment about alliances with other socialist countries is very revealing, you can't accept that a left wing leader can be anything other than a murdering tyrant.

Also, could you tell me what allegations AI is making? As far as I know Amnesty International have got complaints against just about every country in the world, including America.

Oh, and the anti-semetic claim is propaganda, he wasn't refering to Jews but rather to rich, powerful ruling classes. Chavez has frequently expressed admiration for Jesus as the original socialist and he does have a fondness for melodrama in his speeches.

Also, he isn't as popular as every says he is. Yes, he has the support of alot of people, but it's not as if everyone in Venezuela is pro-chavez. I know plenty of people who used to live in Venezuela that are pretty pissed off at what Chavez is doing, calling him a dictator and stuff. You don't HAVE to be radically anti-american to make good social program. Hell, here in Panama, we have a 98% literacy rate! 98%! That's more than the United States! Panama doesn't even have oil, and it has a first-world city of a million people as it's capital (Panama City = Miami, but with more Spanish). Yes, there is a bit of a class divide, but the governments have been aiming to change that. The last government pushed Panama back a bit, yes, with rampant corruption and such, but Martin Torrijos, son of the populist dictator from the 1970's, has led Panama well.

He has the support of 60% of the people which is more than Bush has. I doubt you can name any country where the leader enjoys the undivided support of the populace.

let me ask how you feel about Norriega's removal by US forces

I'm not familiar with the man but I'll reply when I've had a chance to research it.

I'm not familiar with the man but I'll reply when I've had a chance to research it.

I was asking The Lightning Star. Norriega was a panamanian dictator disposed by US military forces

Maybe they're planning to get one. Given the US's record of interferring in South America I wouldn't be surprised.
Yeah to keep of those Airstrikes that the US sometimes use to soften up those who don't agree with them.

Yeah Chavez is anti-semetic. I was wondering why Ocean Drive is in love with the guy. That explains it.
Actually that turned out to be false propaganda yet again.

"The world has enough for all. But it turned out that some minorities, descendants of those who crucified Christ, descendants of those who threw Bolivar out of here and also crucified him in their own way in Santa Marta, there in Colombia, a minority took the world's riches for themselves."
It was against the rich in Colombia which I'm sure a few are Jewish.

And you forgot the follow up article. Where the local Jews WEREN'T insulted by the comments.
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=1367933

Venezuela's local Jewish community, however, has backed Chavez's claims, saying he was misinterpreted by people who don't understand Venezuela.
If he's so anti-Semitic why do the local Jews still support him.

I was asking The Lightning Star. Norriega was a panamanian dictator disposed by US military forces

According to this link (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/Panama_CIAHits.html) it seems that he was only disposed of when he was no longer useful.

I admit that the site looks pretty biased so I'll see what I can find elsewhere. Wikipedia don't have an article on him.

According to this link (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/Panama_CIAHits.html) it seems that he was only disposed of when he was no longer useful.

I admit that the site looks pretty biased so I'll see what I can find elsewhere. Wikipedia don't have an article on him.

as i have brought up in this thread, he was a mistake made by the US, and one of the first we corrected.

Yeah Chavez is anti-semetic. .


No, that was a deliberate mistranslation that was exposed and mentioned on this board within about 10 posts of a thread being started on the subject. You obviously missed it. Otherwise you'd be posting inflamatory lies for the purpose of point-scoring, wouldnt you?



and, as i've been saying, we've paid dearly for these lessons
.

Really? When? The US wouldnt even pay the fine awarded to Nicaragua by the world court. When was Kissinger convicted for his role in the killing of Allende? When was Reagan indicted for his support of the Guatamalan regime?

Me too... and it reminded me so much of Allende... sure, I wasn't born at Allende time, but what happened in Chile in 1973 still have a lot of emotional weight on french lefties... I've always tears in my eyes when I see the Quilapayun (a leftish music band from Chile who survived because September 11, 1973, because that day, they were playing in France... and they staid here since).

And it's always a lot of emotions when I see people who weren't born at that time (like me) singing "El pueblo, unido, jamas sera vencido !", as we do often in left-wing demonstrations. As a chilean said, "All those of years of dictatorship, terror, repression, murder and torture didn't kill the seed of hope that Allende once planted in our heart."

So when I see US trying to do the same in Venezuela, I yell as loud as I can: "Not again ! Hands off Venezuela ! Let them follow the path they chose !"

You really know South America History. You are right on target. It is happening again, and I must admit that I am really scared about it. Chávez is brave man (a "big-mouth" also :), but he will not survive a second culp. If they catch him again, he is dead for sure.
The political muders, the "locautes" (major rich people strikes), the propaganda (see the "anti-semitic" issue here and many others), it is pretty much what Allende faced.
That Sept. 11 was our own day of terror. But hell will freeze before an US president even apologizes for what happened. They will keep saying "I know our record in South America is not that good...". Yeah, you bet is "not that good".
Thanks for telling about the Quilapayun, it is really a touching story.

as i have brought up in this thread, he was a mistake made by the US, and one of the first we corrected.

C´mon, man. Don´t do this. I am not christian, but I ask you to think about the christian principles. I love my country too, I love to watch our independence day parade and etc., but try to think about the panamenhos as human beings. You can´t belive that the US had the right to put and support a $&*#&$ droug dealer as Panama´s President and than "reckoning the error" bombard and invade the country killing thousand of Panamenhos.
It is not moral and it is not legal. It is not a "mistake", it is a crime.
Be a proud american but also a good person.

nations "helped" by the USSR paid heavily for the "support"
nations helped by the USA kept their freedom

Really? Uruguay, Brazil, Argentina...almost 30 years of "freedom" under brutal US puppets: Thousands of deaths, torture, rape, people that "disappeared", media censorship (T.V, Music, Newspaper..you name it), no elections and of course when everything was over we discoveried that we owe even our pants to the IMF. The most amazing thing is that Isabelita (Argentina) and Jango (Brazil) were not communists or even wanabe-marxists (what is a sin, as we all know).