NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/502S
The contribution of vegetarian diets to health and disease: a paradigm shift?Joan Sabaté
1 From the Department of Nutrition, School of Public Health, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.
2 Presented at the Fourth International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, held in Loma Linda, CA, April 8–11, 2002. Published proceedings edited by Joan Sabaté and Sujatha Rajaram, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.

HEALTH BENEFITS OF VEGETARIAN DIETS
During the past 20 y, scores of nutritional epidemiologic studies have documented important and quantifiable benefits of vegetarian and other plant-based diets, namely a reduction of risk for many chronic degenerative diseases and total mortality (14, 15). Vegetarians living in affluent countries enjoy remarkably good health, exemplified by low rates of obesity (16–18), coronary diseases (19–21), diabetes (22), and many cancers (21, 23, 24), and increased longevity (25–27). Those benefits are possibly due to the absence of meat in the diet as well as to a greater amount and variety of plant foods (28). While meat intake has been related to increased risk for a variety of chronic diseases such as ischemic heart disease (19) and some cancers (25, 29), abundant consumption of essential food components of the vegetarian diet such as fruit and vegetables (30–32), legumes and unrefined cereals (33–36), and nuts (33, 37, 38) has consistently been associated with a lower risk for many chronic degenerative diseases, and in some cases increased longevity. In the Adventist Health Study (39), a large prospective cohort study on diet and health of vegetarians and nonvegetarians, many more associations have been observed between plant foods and chronic diseases than with animal foods such as meat and dairy products (Table 2) (33, 40–47). All the protective effects were observed for foods of plant origin, while all the hazardous effects were correlated with meat intake (25). In conclusion, the positive effects of foods of plant origin on chronic disease prevention are possibly more definite than the detrimental effects of meats (28)

ETC. Vegetarian diet appears to be the wave of the future. Not so? Why not? Einstein has said that it's the next step in human evolution.. was he a nut?

Some of the things I read in this article may be also very easily traced to other non-related personality traits. I'd imagine that your average vegetarian is far more likely to be an avid exerciser, far less likely to be a smoker and somewhat less likely to drink alcohol on a regular basis. I'd want to see a study that would account for these factors in a group of your standard omnivorous people.

Beyond that, what good is living forever if you don't have any fun?

I'd imagine that your average vegetarian is

stop imagining things.

you can't really prove it one way or the other, not scientifically anyway.

was I healthier when I was vegan?
sure, but that's only because I couldn't eat at fast food restraunts, eat at regular restraunts, or eat any processed foods at all.

Vegetarianistica']stop imagining things.
Hey, it's just what I've seen from every single vegetarian I know. They tend to be a very active bunch, who shun smoking far more than the average person I know.

Vegetarianistica']ETC. Vegetarian diet appears to be the wave of the future. Not so? Why not? Einstein has said that it's the next step in human evolution.. was he a nut?
He was not a biologist...

We all should eat more veggies every day, no doubt. That doesn't mean that a totally vegetarian diet is preferable to a balanced diet that includes animal products.

An omnivore's diet sure is tasty, though.

Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore all vegetarians are Hitler.

Hey, it's just what I've seen from every single vegetarian I know. They tend to be a very active bunch, who shun smoking far more than the average person I know.

well, okay. but this woman's scientific studies show that eating veggies lowers your risk of getting many chronic diseases. what you're saying is that that's true, but just part of the story?

Sod off, I like my meat. :p

:) Vegetarianistica']http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/502S
The contribution of vegetarian diets to health and disease: a paradigm shift?Joan Sabaté
1 From the Department of Nutrition, School of Public Health, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.
2 Presented at the Fourth International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, held in Loma Linda, CA, April 8–11, 2002. Published proceedings edited by Joan Sabaté and Sujatha Rajaram, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.

HEALTH BENEFITS OF VEGETARIAN DIETS
During the past 20 y, scores of nutritional epidemiologic studies have documented important and quantifiable benefits of vegetarian and other plant-based diets, namely a reduction of risk for many chronic degenerative diseases and total mortality (14, 15). Vegetarians living in affluent countries enjoy remarkably good health, exemplified by low rates of obesity (16–18), coronary diseases (19–21), diabetes (22), and many cancers (21, 23, 24), and increased longevity (25–27). Those benefits are possibly due to the absence of meat in the diet as well as to a greater amount and variety of plant foods (28). While meat intake has been related to increased risk for a variety of chronic diseases such as ischemic heart disease (19) and some cancers (25, 29), abundant consumption of essential food components of the vegetarian diet such as fruit and vegetables (30–32), legumes and unrefined cereals (33–36), and nuts (33, 37, 38) has consistently been associated with a lower risk for many chronic degenerative diseases, and in some cases increased longevity. In the Adventist Health Study (39), a large prospective cohort study on diet and health of vegetarians and nonvegetarians, many more associations have been observed between plant foods and chronic diseases than with animal foods such as meat and dairy products (Table 2) (33, 40–47). All the protective effects were observed for foods of plant origin, while all the hazardous effects were correlated with meat intake (25). In conclusion, the positive effects of foods of plant origin on chronic disease prevention are possibly more definite than the detrimental effects of meats (28)

ETC. Vegetarian diet appears to be the wave of the future. Not so? Why not? Einstein has said that it's the next step in human evolution.. was he a nut?
then why did he make animals out of meat???

Sod off, I like my meat. :p

Dude.

Vegetarianistica']well, okay. but this woman's scientific studies show that eating veggies lowers your risk of getting many chronic diseases. what you're saying is that that's true, but just part of the story?
It might be true. But I'd want more information on how the experiment was conducted, what controls were in place and the rest. I may not be a professional scientist, but I am fairly well acquianted with the process.

And I'm certainly not going to dispute that eating more vegetables is a bad thing. I know I don't get enough, but total elimination of meat products is a silly idea.

I'm still going to murder baby seals.

Some of the things I read in this article may be also very easily traced to other non-related personality traits. I'd imagine that your average vegetarian is far more likely to be an avid exerciser, far less likely to be a smoker and somewhat less likely to drink alcohol on a regular basis. I'd want to see a study that would account for these factors in a group of your standard omnivorous people.

Beyond that, what good is living forever if you don't have any fun?

Only a non-vegetarian would think being a vegetarian was no fun - I have plenty of fun and my food is just as delicious as yours :p

You are right though that most vegetarians are likely to be health conscious. I'd like to see a study done on healthy omnivores too but I imagine that they have done that study as there are so many to choose from and plenty that I know personally that are very health conscious.

I'm wondering if going out right now and getting a double bacon cheeseburger in response to this thread would be cruel...:p

total elimination of meat products is a silly idea

Why is that silly, exactly? How's it silly?

I'm wondering if going out right now and getting a double bacon cheeseburger in response to this thread would be cruel...:p

According to the article, only to yourself. *no loss*

According to the article, only to yourself. *no loss*

Somebody's lost their sense of humor.

Dude.

Now now, I like to beat my meat as much as the next guy, but you know that wasn't what I was talking about. :p

I'm wondering if going out right now and getting a double bacon cheeseburger in response to this thread would be cruel...:p

Bastard. Now I want one. :(

I'm wondering if going out right now and getting a double bacon cheeseburger in response to this thread would be cruel...:p

not at all - have at it. I don't see anyone in this thread telling anyone else to change their diet or that anyone is wrong for eating meat.

Edit: I don't think I was clear - I mean noone is saying that eating meat is wrong.

Now now, I like to beat my meat as much as the next guy, but you know that wasn't what I was talking about. :p



Bastard. Now I want one. :(

Yeeeeah, suuuuure...

And hot pockets are better. >.>

Bastard. Now I want one. :(

Mission Accomplished.

:)
then why did he make animals out of meat???
Even corn dogs? :confused:

:)
then why did he make animals out of meat???


Who Einstien?

not at all - have at it. I don't see anyone in this thread telling anyone else to change their diet or that anyone is wrong for eating meat. Edit: I don't think I was clear - I mean noone is saying that eating meat is wrong.

I think meat is fine, but in moderation. I think vegetarianism is healthier, but it's up to the individual to choose their fate. Meat seems to lead to chronic diseases as compared to non-meat diets. Is meat bad, then? To some. :)

Mission Accomplished.

*bites*

Mmmh. Bloody.

Despite what all the health obsessed idiots out there think, extending your life by a few years really isn't all that worth while. Think about it. Suppose that normally you'd live to be 80, but if you give up meat, you could live another 4 years. Big deal. All you are getting are years 81, 82, 83 and 84. Those years suck anyway no matter what sort of diet you have, so why bother giving up things you enjoy if all you're getting are a few extra years of being old.

*bites*

Mmmh. Bloody.

What, no reply to my hot pocket comment? You sicken me.

Why should I be a vegetarian? Meat is my nature. And do I want to live that much longer? No. I dont want to live past seventy.........6 maybe?

I think meat is fine, but in moderation. I think vegetarianism is healthier, but it's up to the individual to choose their fate. Meat seems to lead to chronic diseases as compared to non-meat diets. Is meat bad, then? To some. :)


I wont eat meat, anymore mainly because it hurts my tummy.

I also don't like the crap they inject into meat. I think Free range organic is the way to go if you are going to eat it and nutritionists say that if you are goign to eat meat, that it should be minimal and to concentrate on fruits, grains, nuts and veggies.

I am also not a fan of the way they treat animals in the really large operations.

That said though, I don't condemn anyone for their diet and think people should eat what they want to.

Bah, I'll put my canines to good use and live just as long, thank you. I'd like to know more about this study as well.

What, no reply to my hot pocket comment? You sicken me.

Quiet, you pearl diving soggy biscuit eater.

Why should I be a vegetarian? Meat is my nature. And do I want to live that much longer? No. I dont want to live past seventy.........6 maybe?

If meat is your nature, have a blast. I think this thread is in response to posts in another thread where everyone said meat-eating is healthier, which it's clearly not.

Quiet, you pearl diving soggy biscuit eater.

My pride...

I also don't like the crap they inject into meat.. and nutritionists say that if you are goign to eat meat, that it should be minimal and to concentrate on fruits, grains, nuts and veggies.

I am also not a fan of the way they treat animals in the really large operations.

That said though, I don't condemn anyone for their diet and think people should eat what they want to.

I don't consume dead things. I also don't agree with eating hormone-infested food, I do eat fully organic veggies. I don't like how animals are treated, but then, I have a conscience. And nor do I care whether other people eat meat, but I don't want to hear that vegetarianism is unhealthy.

For every animal you don't eat I'm going to eat three!

I don't consume dead things. I also don't agree with eating hormone-infested food, I do eat fully organic veggies. I don't like how animals are treated, but then, I have a conscience. And nor do I care whether other people eat meat, but I don't want to hear that vegetarianism is unhealthy.

Fruits and vegetables were alive once too you know, so if you're eating them, you are still consuming a dead thing.

I don't consume dead things. I also don't agree with eating hormone-infested food, I do eat fully organic veggies. I don't like how animals are treated, but then, I have a conscience. And nor do I care whether other people eat meat, but I don't want to hear that vegetarianism is unhealthy.

How long have you been a vegetarian? For me it's been probably 4 years now.

Living in Vegas it's hard to get all organic everything (though I do try) but I see the healthy living market growing all the time here and it makes my heart and belly sing :D


For those saying - oh I dont care about the last four years of my life, that's not the point, its about making the last years of your life less painful. Being healthy means feeling good while being unhealthy means feeling like crap, its not about how many years you live IMHO.

For every animal you don't eat I'm going to eat three!

have fun with the cardiac in your mid-40s, then.

For every animal you don't eat I'm going to eat three!


Does the term "chronic degenerative disease" sound like a happy future to you?

How long have you been a vegetarian? For me it's been probably 4 years now. Living in Vegas it's hard to get all organic everything (though I do try) but I see the healthy living market growing all the time here and it makes my heart and belly sing :D For those saying - oh I dont care about the last four years of my life, that's not the point, its about making the last years of your life less painful. Being healthy means feeling good while being unhealthy means feeling like crap, its not about how many years you live IMHO.

I've been pure veg. for 9 years now and it's been the Healthiest 9 years of my life. I have experienced Zero illness or sickness in that time. Well, okay, a head cold. But nothing else! Organics are freely available at the Cub foods outlets, and also Whole Foods Co-Ops throughout the Nation.

Being healthy means feeling good - correct! And better brainpower!! More power to ye, Sumamba Buwhan. Stay Healthy!

Fruits and vegetables were alive once too you know, so if you're eating them, you are still consuming a dead thing.

Actually, I eat *live* vegetables. As I stated, I don't eat dead things. I consume the sun energy that my vegetables have incorporated into their beings. I don't eat dead things that have the same body parts as me. Why not just eat humans? What's the difference?

I've been pure veg. for 9 years now and it's been the Healthiest 9 years of my life. I have experienced Zero illness or sickness in that time. Well, okay, a head cold. But nothing else! Organics are freely available at the Cub foods outlets, and also Whole Foods Co-Ops throughout the Nation.

Being healthy means feeling good - correct! And better brainpower!! More power to ye, Sumamba Buwhan. Stay Healthy!

Thanks

Theres a place called the Sunrise Market here as well as Whole Foods and Trader joes and they all ahve assorted Organic stuff. They are all far away though and sometimes I settle for Albertsons around the corner.

I've also gotten a lot healthier since going veggie. And even healthier still since I cut out caffine and large amounts of sugar.

Thanks. I've also gotten a lot healthier since going veggie. And even healthier still since I cut out caffine and large amounts of sugar.

You're welcome! Anything for a fellow veggie. Yeah.. I don't consume caffeine, sugar, or anything processed (except nacho cheese, I admit). We make our own juice fresh every morning, bake bread, and shop fully organic at the Whole Foods Co-Op, which happens to be about 5 miles away. I've never felt more on-the-ball than when I went veggie AND organic AND cut out all the TOXINS. Yup! Life is good and the cure to cancer starts with not getting it in the first place. Anyway I've gotta jet now but I know you now and will surely see you around. Take Care and Stay Healthy! Thank You for going vegetarian. Peace.

Why not just eat humans? What's the difference?

Humans are smart enough to have moral significance. Also they are hard to kill without getting into alot of trouble.
Apparently we don't taste very good either. Someone once told me that we taste something like burnt leather. :D

You're welcome! Anything for a fellow veggie. Yeah.. I don't consume caffeine, sugar, or anything processed (except nacho cheese, I admit). We make our own juice fresh every morning, bake bread, and shop fully organic at the Whole Foods Co-Op, which happens to be about 5 miles away. I've never felt more on-the-ball than when I went veggie AND organic AND cut out all the TOXINS. Yup! Life is good and the cure to cancer starts with not getting it in the first place. Anyway I've gotta jet now but I know you now and will surely see you around. Take Care and Stay Healthy! Thank You for going vegetarian. Peace.
You might want to check out the book Dangerous Grains (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1583331298/104-8092150-9103144?v=glance&n=283155), it may modify your diet even further, btw are you just veggie or full vegan?

You're welcome! Anything for a fellow veggie. Yeah.. I don't consume caffeine, sugar, or anything processed (except nacho cheese, I admit). We make our own juice fresh every morning, bake bread, and shop fully organic at the Whole Foods Co-Op, which happens to be about 5 miles away. I've never felt more on-the-ball than when I went veggie AND organic AND cut out all the TOXINS. Yup! Life is good and the cure to cancer starts with not getting it in the first place. Anyway I've gotta jet now but I know you now and will surely see you around. Take Care and Stay Healthy! Thank You for going vegetarian. Peace.


We have a juicer and it's AWESOME, are looking into growing wheatgrass and juicing that as well, and we are also looking at bread ovens as well.

It's good to hear from others that are into eating healthy because I can get recipes from you :p

And yes I feel that the healthy food is the best medicine one can have.

Peace out!

You might want to check out the book Dangerous Grains (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1583331298/104-8092150-9103144?v=glance&n=283155), it may modify your diet even further, btw are you just veggie or full vegan?

I don't think (s)he is vegan because of the post about eating nacho cheese. :)

Imma check out that book too - thanks for the link!

Humans are smart enough to have moral significance. Also they are hard to kill without getting into alot of trouble.
Apparently we don't taste very good either. Someone once told me that we taste something like burnt leather. :D

humans are smart enough to have the Concept of morality - to know the difference between right and wrong. apparently, though, it's extremely recessive. and anyway, humans taste like pigs.. hence our title of "Long Pig." but you like pigs. shouldn't be a problem. and anyway when i was in India i attended many funeral pyres on the beaches and they smelled pretty much like steak. to tell the truth i started getting hungry. :eek:

:)
then why did he make animals out of meat???

Humans, another species of animal, are also made of meat - but not many people seem to want to turn to cannibalism...(Although there is an interesting criminal law case on this topic from the 1800s...feel free to ask for the ref. if you wanna read it - but I doubt any of you would be interested...)

I, for one, feel that vegetarianism has made me a lot healthier despite being told by my team of doctors and nurses etc. that it would do the exact opposite. I have cystic fibrosis and so it is vital to keep my weight up in order to remain healthy and have a good lung function. Since turning vegetarian, my appetite has vastly increased, my weight gain is better and more stable than it had been as a meat eater and I rarely get chest infections (whereas I got a very serious one when eating meat, along with many minor ones) While it is true that I am a non-smoker and don't consume a great deal of alcohol, it is also true that I never, ever exercise. I am not a health or fitness fanatic; I just don't agree with the consumption of meat and so don't consume it. I may not have any scientific proof that it has helped me - but 10 years on and my doctors haven't been proved right yet.

Also, it is reported that a vegetarian diet reduces the risks of various forms of cancer along with heart problems...

And as for the comment about vegetarians not having fun - you are most definitely mistaken. Vegetarianism is not boring - we all eat vegetables, the only difference is that vegetarians don't eat the meat/fish/gelatine etc... Since when does a person's diet have any bearing on their personality and ability to enjoy life anyway?

Any "benefits" from meat such as iron and protein are readily available in the various Soya based products e.g. Quorn and Linda McCartney ready meals, not to mention other food groups - pulses and beans etc. So it is not as though cutting out meat means we are cutting out part of a balanced diet.

I'll stop now before I progress to my anti-vivisection/animal rights/'meat is murder' speech...

I don't think (s)he is vegan because of the post about eating nacho cheese. :) Imma check out that book too - thanks for the link!

Hey, yeah, I'm a girl. I'm not vegan, I'm veg., but I don't eat eggs or drink milk.. I have non-rennet cheese on occasion. I'm a big soy milk fan.. drink it in bucketloads. I'm also not into fake meat because I don't want the "feeling" that I'm eating meat -- it grosses me out too much.

Hey, yeah, I'm a girl. I'm not vegan, I'm veg., but I don't eat eggs or drink milk.. I have non-rennet cheese on occasion. I'm a big soy milk fan.. drink it in bucketloads. I'm also not into fake meat because I don't want the "feeling" that I'm eating meat -- it grosses me out too much.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-123soy,0,4323391.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

if you are worried about your health you might want to cut back on the soy milk too, remember humans don't need milk after they are done breastfeeding, you can get those nutrients from veggies.


*really needs to go get a burger before her vegan-ness gets her again*

Since turning vegetarian, my appetite has vastly increased, my weight gain is better and more stable than it had been as a meat eater and I rarely get chest infections (whereas I got a very serious one when eating meat, along with many minor ones).

Did you know that the Roman Gladiators were pure vegetarians? Yup! Found that bit of info. while doing a research paper for school (about the benefits of a vegetarian diet). The Gladiators lived on barley and veggies, and had bigger, stronger bones and healthier teeth. Obviously they're known for their strength and agility. I don't have the link but you could search for it, maybe. It was in some news archive at the school online library. Anyway, interesting! :D

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-123soy,0,4323391.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

if you are worried about your health you might want to cut back on the soy milk too, remember humans don't need milk after they are done breastfeeding, you can get those nutrients from veggies.


*really needs to go get a burger before her vegan-ness gets her again*


That link isn't saying soy is bad for you, just that it's possibly not as good for you as many try to say.

Nutrition experts say soy-based foods still are good because they often are eaten in place of less healthy fare like burgers and hot dogs. But they don't have as much direct benefit as had been hoped on cholesterol, one of the top risk factors for heart disease.

GAH! Make it stop! You two are like Pauly Shore! Geez! Quit being so peppy! X_x

Did you know that the Roman Gladiators were pure vegetarians? Yup! Found that bit of info. while doing a research paper for school (about the benefits of a vegetarian diet). The Gladiators lived on barley and veggies, and had bigger, stronger bones and healthier teeth. Obviously they're known for their strength and agility. I don't have the link but you could search for it, maybe. It was in some news archive at the school online library. Anyway, interesting! :D

Hey yer right!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/02/wglad02.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/02/ixworld.html

That link isn't saying soy is bad for you, just that it's possibly not as good for you as many try to say.
oops wrong link..........

sorry, I have so many

here try this (http://www.goddessdiet.com/Reports/NYDailyNews.htm) one.

if you are worried about your health you might want to cut back on the soy milk too, remember humans don't need milk after they are done breastfeeding, you can get those nutrients from veggies.

"now casting doubt on the health claim that soy-based foods and supplements significantly lower cholesterol"

Uhhh.. I don't have cholesterol problems. And the articles never says soy beans are unhealthy, it says that they may not lower cholesterol. And soy milk is a bean product, totally unrelated to breastmilk, or any milk at all. So.. ?

Humans, another species of animal, are also made of meat - but not many people seem to want to turn to cannibalism...(Although there is an interesting criminal law case on this topic from the 1800s...feel free to ask for the ref. if you wanna read it - but I doubt any of you would be interested...)

I, for one, feel that vegetarianism has made me a lot healthier despite being told by my team of doctors and nurses etc. that it would do the exact opposite. I have cystic fibrosis and so it is vital to keep my weight up in order to remain healthy and have a good lung function. Since turning vegetarian, my appetite has vastly increased, my weight gain is better and more stable than it had been as a meat eater and I rarely get chest infections (whereas I got a very serious one when eating meat, along with many minor ones) While it is true that I am a non-smoker and don't consume a great deal of alcohol, it is also true that I never, ever exercise. I am not a health or fitness fanatic; I just don't agree with the consumption of meat and so don't consume it. I may not have any scientific proof that it has helped me - but 10 years on and my doctors haven't been proved right yet.

Also, it is reported that a vegetarian diet reduces the risks of various forms of cancer along with heart problems...

And as for the comment about vegetarians not having fun - you are most definitely mistaken. Vegetarianism is not boring - we all eat vegetables, the only difference is that vegetarians don't eat the meat/fish/gelatine etc... Since when does a person's diet have any bearing on their personality and ability to enjoy life anyway?

Any "benefits" from meat such as iron and protein are readily available in the various Soya based products e.g. Quorn and Linda McCartney ready meals, not to mention other food groups - pulses and beans etc. So it is not as though cutting out meat means we are cutting out part of a balanced diet.

I'll stop now before I progress to my anti-vivisection/animal rights/'meat is murder' speech...

1) I had a friend with CF. He did the veggie thing too.

2) Without green Jello, my life would be without all meaning.

3) Being highly allergic to soy and mildly allergic to other types of beans, (I can eat chick peas, thank G-d. Atherwise I couldn't have hummus) it is really hard for me to find healthy vegitarian alternatives.

I like eating meat because I feel a kinship, a connection with the animal that was sacrificed to feed me. We share the same pain, hunger, and live life in much the same way. It makes me feel close to my food.

Hey yer right!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/02/wglad02.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/02/ixworld.html

Was there any doubt of my.. rightness? :) THANX for finding that, now it's in my Favorites. *Yay!*

Uhhh.. I don't have cholesterol problems. And the articles never says soy beans are unhealthy, it says that they may not lower cholesterol. And soy milk is a bean product, totally unrelated to breastmilk, or any milk at all. So.. ?
yeah, it was the wrong article, I have about 50 (pathetic right?) I am not anti-soy I just think it's been promoted as this miracle food and they are finding out that it's not so great, I have articles of studies that show that it might even be harmful. anyway, my main point is that if you are going to be on a diet for your health you might want to actually research it more than "some cool people don't eat meat" and if you are on a veggie diet because it's cruel to animals then why eat animal byproducts? it's just as cruel to them.

I know that soy milk is a bean product believe me I know more about food than anyone really wants to know, I just was talking about the nacho cheese you are addicted to, sometimes my thoughts don't seem so coherent to others, I will try harder. ;)

oops wrong link..........

sorry, I have so many

here try this (http://www.goddessdiet.com/Reports/NYDailyNews.htm) one.


Hmm ineresting - I eat a lot of soy based stuff for the protein. I went to the doctor recently for a checkup and he asked me about my diet and was surprised to find out I was vegetarian but told me to keep it up if it brings results like what he saw in me (especially concerning cholesterol). I'm sure that it's not because I'm eating soy though, but because I have a very well balanced diet and make sure I intake all the differnet nutrients my body needs.

1) I had a friend with CF. He did the veggie thing too.

2) Without green Jello, my life would be without all meaning.

3) Being highly allergic to soy and mildly allergic to other types of beans, (I can eat chick peas, thank G-d. Atherwise I couldn't have hummus) it is really hard for me to find healthy vegitarian alternatives.

1. Good!
2. You get vegetarian Jell-o and gummybears, and all that good stuff.
3. Hummus is the shiznit.

oops wrong link..........

sorry, I have so many

here try this (http://www.goddessdiet.com/Reports/NYDailyNews.htm) one.

It's about how excessive soy is bad for you.

Was there any doubt of my.. rightness? :) THANX for finding that, now it's in my Favorites. *Yay!*


w00t!

Well I do like to check if people are pulling my leg or not.

It's about how excessive soy is bad for you.

Yeah..

From the article: "The possibility that widely consumed soy products may cause harm in the human population via either or both estrogenic and [thyroid] activity is of concern," said Sheehan in a recently published study."

Me says: Estrogen is a lipid-based hormone, (cholesterol), thus it can slip through cell walls and alter the DNA structure. They're unspecific about WHAT hormones produced by the thyroid they're talking about.

My take: Inconclusive.

It's about how excessive soy is bad for you.
okay, I can't find my link.........so anyway, you might (that's you collective to whoever is interested) look it up, I have to go, my kids want to talk about disecting a frog or something and I have to find out if that's legal............

w00t! Well I do like to check if people are pulling my leg or not.

Hahaha! That's funny. :D I'm very glad to hear that you check-up on these things. It proves your intelligence. And btw, are you male or female? And what type of name is Sumamba Buwhan?

Not all vegetarianism is created equal, it would seem.

Eating Disorders in Teenage Vegetarians: Cause for Concern?

A recent study from the University of Minnesota raised the concern that teen vegetarians are more likely to have eating disorders than non-vegetarians. This study, which surveyed nearly 5,000 middle- and high-school students, found that almost 6% described themselves as being vegetarian or not eating red meat. More than half of the self-described “vegetarians” ate chicken, so the description of their diet as “vegetarian” is misleading. Teens who described themselves as vegetarian were more weight-conscious and more likely to have been told they had an eating disorder, including conditions like anorexia nervosa and bulimia. These teens reported that their main reason for using a vegetarian or partial vegetarian diet was as a weight control method. Unfortunately, they were also practicing other behaviors which were not as healthful as a vegetarian diet can be, including using diet pills, abusing laxatives, and self-inducing vomiting after meals.

Can we say that these teens had eating disorders as a result of their vegetarian diet? No, we can’t. It seems more likely that these teens already had a number of issues with food and body weight and simply chose a vegetarian or partial vegetarian diet as one more way to restrict their food intake. This study shows that it is important to carefully define the term “vegetarian,” since the study’s results made it appear that vegetarians were at increased risk for eating disorders when, indeed, only half of these “vegetarians” really were vegetarian. Another study has shown that only 6% of teens with anorexia nervosa chose to follow a vegetarian diet before the onset of their eating disorder. Many more became vegetarian after the onset of their eating disorder.

Perry CL, McGuire MT, Newmark-Sztainer D, Story M. 2001. Characteristics of vegetarian adolescents in a multiethnic urban population. J Adolesc Health 29:406-416.

okay, I can't find my link.........so anyway, you might (that's you collective to whoever is interested) look it up, I have to go, my kids want to talk about disecting a frog or something and I have to find out if that's legal............
I guess as long as it's not a frogman.

This is well established fact. A diet high in grains, fruits, and vegetables is very good for you. A touch of meat or fish can help as well.

I guess as long as it's not a frogman.
well, I don't know where to buy a frog to disect first of all, and I don't want to kill one, and I really don't want to get in trouble with animal welfare or anything, I know where to get a fetal pig, but I don't know if I want to disect that in my house..........

Hahaha! That's funny. :D I'm very glad to hear that you check-up on these things. It proves your intelligence. And btw, are you male or female? And what type of name is Sumamba Buwhan?


Well I'm so gullible I need to check facts or else I'll believe anything.

I'm a male man (although some would contest that)

I'm a big fan of the moon so when I was creating my nation I wanted to name it something about worshipping the moon, and since my better half is phillipina I did an online translation and got Sumamba Buwhan and have troubled many with it's attempted pronunciation.

What about you Jewish Media Control? Why the name?

This is well established fact. A diet high in grains, fruits, and vegetables is very good for you. A touch of meat or fish can help as well.

Try proving facts to the masses. :headbang:

well, I don't know where to buy a frog to disect first of all, and I don't want to kill one, and I really don't want to get in trouble with animal welfare or anything, I know where to get a fetal pig, but I don't know if I want to disect that in my house..........

Its perfectly legal in the US to disect a frog. Obtained through the proper channels, it would even be permissable to disect a human in your home. Pigs are messier than a frog, in my expirence. Stay with the frog. I think Edmund Scientific sells frogs for discetion.

Its perfectly legal in the US to disect a frog.

Ug.. I'm a doomed vegetarian student. Starting monday we're dissecting CATS. And no, not just for one day. For something like a month. *ug* God help me. Then there's the sheep brains. *nice*

Ug.. I'm a doomed vegetarian student. Starting monday we're dissecting CATS. And no, not just for one day. For something like a month. *ug* God help me. Then there's the sheep brains. *nice*

Once you get started on the cat, it ceases to be one. That first cut is the hardest. **Starts singing Cheryl Crow**

Ug.. I'm a doomed vegetarian student. Starting monday we're dissecting CATS. And no, not just for one day. For something like a month. *ug* God help me. Then there's the sheep brains. *nice*
well, if you hadn't waited until the last minute there are animal groups who loan out cd-roms that simulate disecting animals so that you don't acutally have to do it, my problem is they don't sell them, and they don't loan them to homeschoolers.

well, I don't know where to buy a frog to disect first of all, and I don't want to kill one, and I really don't want to get in trouble with animal welfare or anything, I know where to get a fetal pig, but I don't know if I want to disect that in my house..........
Perhaps you can find one of those frogs with three eyes or five legs and put it out of its misery.

You should disect a mink....I never got the chance.

Ug.. I'm a doomed vegetarian student. Starting monday we're dissecting CATS. And no, not just for one day. For something like a month. *ug* God help me. Then there's the sheep brains. *nice*
A month? That cat is not going to stay fresh all that time. Why dissect it if by the end of the month it'll just start falling to pieces by itself?

I am confused about soy milk. I drink it now and then, as a substitute for milk although I drink organic milk also at times. What's the final verdict?

I agree that a wholesome veggie diet is healthier. I feel a lot better and less sicker since I gave up meat a year ago.

I disagree that veggies don't have fun with food (as asserted at the beginning of this thread). There are a LOT of tasty veggie dishes (especially from Indian cuisine).

You should disect a mink....I never got the chance.
in my search on the legality and where to get a frog, I found out that the local science museum is disecting earthworms next weekend and the kids seem to want to do that since there will be a real scientist there and everything, also I found a program that simulates the human body (I think it's for pathology students) and we might get it.

Vegetarianistica']http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/502S
The contribution of vegetarian diets to health and disease: a paradigm shift?Joan Sabaté
1 From the Department of Nutrition, School of Public Health, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.
2 Presented at the Fourth International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, held in Loma Linda, CA, April 8–11, 2002. Published proceedings edited by Joan Sabaté and Sujatha Rajaram, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.

HEALTH BENEFITS OF VEGETARIAN DIETS
During the past 20 y, scores of nutritional epidemiologic studies have documented important and quantifiable benefits of vegetarian and other plant-based diets, namely a reduction of risk for many chronic degenerative diseases and total mortality (14, 15). Vegetarians living in affluent countries enjoy remarkably good health, exemplified by low rates of obesity (16–18), coronary diseases (19–21), diabetes (22), and many cancers (21, 23, 24), and increased longevity (25–27). Those benefits are possibly due to the absence of meat in the diet as well as to a greater amount and variety of plant foods (28). While meat intake has been related to increased risk for a variety of chronic diseases such as ischemic heart disease (19) and some cancers (25, 29), abundant consumption of essential food components of the vegetarian diet such as fruit and vegetables (30–32), legumes and unrefined cereals (33–36), and nuts (33, 37, 38) has consistently been associated with a lower risk for many chronic degenerative diseases, and in some cases increased longevity. In the Adventist Health Study (39), a large prospective cohort study on diet and health of vegetarians and nonvegetarians, many more associations have been observed between plant foods and chronic diseases than with animal foods such as meat and dairy products (Table 2) (33, 40–47). All the protective effects were observed for foods of plant origin, while all the hazardous effects were correlated with meat intake (25). In conclusion, the positive effects of foods of plant origin on chronic disease prevention are possibly more definite than the detrimental effects of meats (28)

ETC. Vegetarian diet appears to be the wave of the future. Not so? Why not? Einstein has said that it's the next step in human evolution.. was he a nut?

Einstein, Gandhi, George Bernard Shaw...

I've been a vegetarian my whole life, and now I can confirm that I was right all along that a vegetarian diet is healthier to my meat-eating friends.

A month? That cat is not going to stay fresh all that time. Why dissect it if by the end of the month it'll just start falling to pieces by itself?

They're preserved. Heavily preserved. We disected ours over the course of a school year.

I dont understand what all the fuss is about, no one is getting out of this life alive anyway...besides the most devout health concious person can get run over by a bus just as fast as a meat eater.... Plants have feelings too... think they like being crunched up any more then an animal does? *shrugs*

They're preserved. Heavily preserved. We disected ours over the course of a school year.
Oh, ok. It'd be cool if they plastified them like those people.

Oh, ok. It'd be cool if they plastified them like those people.

:)

Mine actually had the major veins and arteries injected with polymer.

in my search on the legality and where to get a frog, I found out that the local science museum is disecting earthworms next weekend and the kids seem to want to do that since there will be a real scientist there and everything, also I found a program that simulates the human body (I think it's for pathology students) and we might get it.

Are thy gonna cut some earthworms in half and let them grow back? Cuz I did that once, yay for having, like, five hearts!

Einstein, Gandhi, George Bernard Shaw...

I've been a vegetarian my whole life, and now I can confirm that I was right all along that a vegetarian diet is healthier to my meat-eating friends.

Hallelujah! :D

Plants have feelings too... think they like being crunched up any more then an animal does? *shrugs*

actually, plants don't have nerves: they don't have neurons, neuroreceptors, synapses. they, in effect, don't have pain because they, in effect, don't have nerves that sense pain.

Vegetarianistica']actually, plants don't have nerves: they don't have neurons, neuroreceptors, synapses. they, in effect, don't have pain because they, in effect, don't have nerves that sense pain.

Have you ever been a plant? Just because they dont have anything that humanity would consider a nervous system does not mean they like being food anymore then an animal would... Life is life no matter what form it is in, and all things consume one another in some form, including plants....

Some of the things I read in this article may be also very easily traced to other non-related personality traits. I'd imagine that your average vegetarian is far more likely to be an avid exerciser, far less likely to be a smoker and somewhat less likely to drink alcohol on a regular basis. I'd want to see a study that would account for these factors in a group of your standard omnivorous people.

Beyond that, what good is living forever if you don't have any fun?
Hahahahahaha!

I'm a vegetarian, I drink about once a week (less if it's exams, more if I have the cash flow and reason to do so) the only exercise I get is walking to school, I don't smoke tobacco, but I'm more than willing to smoke some pot if the opportunity arises (I'm definitely a social smoker) most vegetarians and reduced meat eaters I know are stoners...

hahaha go eat so toe food/crap!

Have you ever been a plant? Just because they dont have anything that humanity would consider a nervous system does not mean they like being food anymore then an animal would... Life is life no matter what form it is in, and all things consume one another in some form, including plants....
Well, plants have nerves but they don't have pain receptors. They have nerves that let them know a leaf has fallen (or was damaged) so they can grow a new one and the like, but feel no pain as they are simply not biologically equipped to do so.

(Oh, in case someone thinks I'm endorsing this thread, just so you know, I don't care to convert anyone to vegetarianism and frankly threads like this are what make vegetarians and vegans look bad... although we do put up with this sort of crap from you omnivores all the time...)

hahaha go eat so toe food/crap!
Tofu is delicious! And from what I've read, there's a suspicion that a moderate intake of soy products prevents the uncomfortable effects of menopause in women.

Have you ever been a plant? Just because they dont have anything that humanity would consider a nervous system does not mean they like being food anymore then an animal would... Life is life no matter what form it is in, and all things consume one another in some form, including plants....

You are correct. We can only choose the lesser of the evils. I choose what, from my human perspective of life, is the least harmful form of sustenance. I can't _not_ harm. BUT I can harm as little as possible.

You are correct. We can only choose the lesser of the evils. I choose what, from my human perspective of life, is the least harmful form of sustenance. I can't _not_ harm. BUT I can harm as little as possible.

I'm a Level 5 Vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

so just because they dont have anything people would consider pain receptors its ok to disregard how they feel being ripped out of their homes(earth,growing spaces and the like) and used for food. Now personally I believe all things in moderation I eat meat, grains , leafy veggies, but not for one moment do i forget that something has to die to keep myself alive plant or animal. It would be nice if that was not the case but there it is... extremes in anything can be taken to unhealthy levels.... Better to say everyone has different preferences without spouting one is better then the other.

(Oh, in case someone thinks I'm endorsing this thread, just so you know, I don't care to convert anyone to vegetarianism and frankly threads like this are what make vegetarians and vegans look bad... although we do put up with this sort of crap from you omnivores all the time...)

Threads like _this_ particular one have been pretty free of conversions and hatred and stuff. Except from the meat-eating side, (per usual). It's nice that most people are open-minded here.

You are correct. We can only choose the lesser of the evils. I choose what, from my human perspective of life, is the least harmful form of sustenance. I can't _not_ harm. BUT I can harm as little as possible.
sure, but then why eat animal by-products?
in fact, why eat animal products? do you read every bag of chips you eat? some of them contain beef stock, most soups contain animal products, even veg. soup contains beef stock, heck, even the fries at Mc Donald's have meat on them.


sorry for the rant, I just get annoyed with veggies that go around talking about how we (meat eaters) are "doing harm" when most of them are doing it too.....

so just because they dont have anything people would consider pain receptors its ok to disregard how they feel

Please see post #99. I do agree with you, fully. And I do not take my food for granted. Thank You for considering your fellow earthlings. I admire your empathy.

I'm a Level 5 Vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

That's cool. My brother's a vegan of your caliber. Great stuff. ;)

Threads like _this_ particular one have been pretty free of conversions and hatred and stuff. Except from the meat-eating side, (per usual). It's nice that most people are open-minded here.

I've been told a number of times that "Meat is Murder" (not here in particular, both on other boards and in RL) That doesn't doesn't sound particularly free of "hatred and stuff."

Threads like _this_ particular one have been pretty free of conversions and hatred and stuff. Except from the meat-eating side, (per usual). It's nice that most people are open-minded here.
The initial post kinda started off that way, you're right though, it has been ok.

Please see post #99. I do agree with you, fully. And I do not take my food for granted. Thank You for considering your fellow earthlings. I admire your empathy.
I saw it *smiles* i just happeded to post before i saw that... and not for one moment did I say you did but many do... I suppose it is just my personal beliefs that everything is connected that makes me aware that everything has its soul even if its not one a person would understand necessarily. And all things deserve respect, Plant, animal or mineral.

I've been told a number of times that "Meat is Murder" (not here in particular, both on other boards and in RL) That doesn't doesn't sound particularly free of "hatred and stuff."
Well, I've been told that I shoudl eat meat or I'll die, I've had people attempt to slip chicken broth into my food, "accidently" forget to order a non-meat pizza when I ask for one, been told vegetarianism is stupid/it's a phase, had people shove meat in my face et c. I think you can put up with a few "meat is murder" comments now and then.

sure, but then why eat animal by-products?
in fact, why eat animal products? do you read every bag of chips you eat? some of them contain beef stock, most soups contain animal products, even veg. soup contains beef stock, heck, even the fries at Mc Donald's have meat on them. sorry for the rant, I just get annoyed with veggies that go around talking about how we (meat eaters) are "doing harm" when most of them are doing it too.....

I eat cheese on ocassion, no other animal products at all ever. And even then I buy rennet-free. I don't eat chips, nor do I eat anything that's not straight out of the Whole Foods Co-Op, and yes I read ALL labels of EVERYTHING. And fastfood is unheard of. You seem a bit defensive. I haven't attacked meat-eaters. All I've said is that I do the least harm to my fellow earthlings as I possibly can. If you want to do harm that's up to you. But I'm certainly not going to attack you for it.

You are correct. We can only choose the lesser of the evils. I choose what, from my human perspective of life, is the least harmful form of sustenance. I can't _not_ harm. BUT I can harm as little as possible.

It seems kind of funny, but I spend my life trying my hardest to figure out how to make the largest impact, do the most, and be a winner/conqueror. I am a predator. My eyes are on the front of my head, and not on the sides. I go a direction by assertively, I do not scurry about, avoiding confrontation. Animals are my food because they taste good, not because I have something against them. I compete, and I strive to win.

It is a choice, and a mindset. I go forward. I take life, and meet it head on, and do my best to meet life's challenges. I do not see how you can do all of that worring about whether or not you are hurting the little cows, or the little birds, or whatever. I consume what I consume, and I don't consider the consumee.

I guess it is the difference between being a leaf in a bubbling stream, taking in the splendor of the experience, or a jet boat on a lake, with only the promise of your destination to confort you...

Well, I've been told that I shoudl eat meat or I'll die, I've had people attempt to slip chicken broth into my food, "accidently" forget to order a non-meat pizza when I ask for one, been told vegetarianism is stupid/it's a phase, had people shove meat in my face et c. I think you can put up with a few "meat is murder" comments now and then.
you think that's bad? when I was a vegan I got invited to Thanksgiving with my extended family and they made sure to put either meat or a meat byproduct in every single thing served, so I couldn't eat at all. They even put bacon in the green beans, ham in the peas and chicken broth and in the mashed potatoes (like the milk and butter wasn't enough) and when I got back from the health food store with a vegan friendly lunch they cussed me out for being "inconsiderate" :rolleyes:

I eat cheese on ocassion, no other animal products at all ever. And even then I buy rennet-free. I don't eat chips, nor do I eat anything that's not straight out of the Whole Foods Co-Op, and yes I read ALL labels of EVERYTHING. And fastfood is unheard of. You seem a bit defensive. I haven't attacked meat-eaters. All I've said is that I do the least harm to my fellow earthlings as I possibly can. If you want to do harm that's up to you. But I'm certainly not going to attack you for it.
sorry if I sounded defensive. I misjudged you. You are a good veggie. I just feel like I have been attacked by both sides my whole life, I was a vegan for 6 years, in the middle of cow country, and to add on to that my family has a ranch full of "steaks and burgers" (that's what they call the cows :() but now that I am a meat eater, I get attacked by the veggies, and most of the time the veggies that attack me are the ones who are sitting there in a suede jacket eating chips with beef stock and drinking milk.........

I saw it *smiles* i just happeded to post before i saw that... and not for one moment did I say you did but many do... I suppose it is just my personal beliefs that everything is connected that makes me aware that everything has its soul even if its not one a person would understand necessarily. And all things deserve respect, Plant, animal or mineral.

You're obviously a very compassionate person, and this I bow down to in admiration. All things deserve the same respect.. we are all absolutely interconnected. I'm no Buddhist, but I do like their saying about everything's soul.. the tree Buddha, the animal Buddha, the rock Buddha. They are all souls in different forms. Few of us understand this. Thank You.

sorry if I sounded defensive. I misjudged you. You are a good veggie. I just feel like I have been attacked by both sides my whole life, I was a vegan for 6 years, in the middle of cow country, and to add on to that my family has a ranch full of "steaks and burgers" (that's what they call the cows :() but now that I am a meat eater, I get attacked by the veggies, and most of the time the veggies that attack me are the ones who are sitting there in a suede jacket eating chips with beef stock and drinking milk.........

You needed your outlet, and I provided it for you. Glad I could help you vent. I am a 'good' vegetarian, and I truly care about, am passionate about, my reasons. However, I'm not a person to think I have all the answers for everyone else around me. I'm just into finding answers for my Self. :)

you think that's bad? when I was a vegan I got invited to Thanksgiving with my extended family and they made sure to put either meat or a meat byproduct in every single thing served, so I couldn't eat at all. They even put bacon in the green beans, ham in the peas and chicken broth and in the mashed potatoes (like the milk and butter wasn't enough) and when I got back from the health food store with a vegan friendly lunch they cussed me out for being "inconsiderate" :rolleyes:

Sounds like you need a new family. Want to make one?

Sounds like you need a new family. Want to make one?
acutally I already have..........with my husband.......but that's a good pick up line, you should try it on someone single, it just might work ;)

You needed your outlet, and I provided it for you. Glad I could help you vent. I am a 'good' vegetarian, and I truly care about, am passionate about, my reasons. However, I'm not a person to think I have all the answers for everyone else around me. I'm just into finding answers for my Self. :)
I think you and I are going to get along super great :D sorry again, thanks for understanding that sometimes I just snap for no real reason LOL

You're obviously a very compassionate person, and this I bow down to in admiration. All things deserve the same respect.. we are all absolutely interconnected. I'm no Buddhist, but I do like their saying about everything's soul.. the tree Buddha, the animal Buddha, the rock Buddha. They are all souls in different forms. Few of us understand this. Thank You.
Thank you, you are very kind. I also appriciate you stating your position without resorting to childish theatrics. Too many who debate do exactly that. I like certain concepts of Buddism, such as the interconnectiveness of all things. It was also taught in Native American religions to which I feel the most connection to, well along with other "Pagan" belief systems... *smiles* I suppose my purpose in joining this conversation when I join very few here anymore is to see if there were any others who could see perhaps consuming one form of life is not all that different then consuming another. It is what we on the planet were programmed to do after all along with everything else to some extent. Being aware however, now that is a different story. We are blessed with the ability to be AWARE, not many people take advatage of it though.... *laughs*

Sounds like you need a new family. Want to make one?

I'll make one. Want my address? :p

Having a Vegetarian diet makes it extremely hard to build muscle. Thats why im not a vegetarian anymore. Besides every bodybuilder I have spoken to eats meat regularly.

Thank you, you are very kind. I also appriciate you stating your position without resorting to childish theatrics. Too many who debate do exactly that. I like certain concepts of Buddism, such as the interconnectiveness of all things. It was also taught in Native American religions to which I feel the most connection to, well along with other "Pagan" belief systems... *smiles* I suppose my purpose in joining this conversation when I join very few here anymore is to see if there were any others who could see perhaps consuming one form of life is not all that different then consuming another. It is what we on the planet were programmed to do after all along with everything else to some extent. Being aware however, now that is a different story. We are blessed with the ability to be AWARE, not many people take advatage of it though.... *laughs*

Hmm.. odd connection I feel to you. Anyway, yeah I'm a pagan too *wouldn't you know it* Anyway I study Hinduism.. which is totally about the interconnectedness of all that is, was, will be, etc. Not many people are AWARE, as you so aptly put it. *big smile* Not many people are aware of much at all, let alone all this stuff. It's the very rare person that I can totally respect and identify with. If you look up Kate39 on Vegweb personals you'll find my email. Just tossing that out there. Anyway, the way I see it, we need to.. well.. be aware that when we eat we're taking life. We shouldn't eat more than we need to survive, I think. And waste is like tossing life down the drain. *thinking* I need to pay more attention! :)

Having a Vegetarian diet makes it extremely hard to build muscle. Thats why im not a vegetarian anymore. Besides every bodybuilder I have spoken to eats meat regularly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/02/wglad02.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/02/ixworld.html

I dont understand what all the fuss is about, no one is getting out of this life alive anyway...besides the most devout health concious person can get run over by a bus just as fast as a meat eater

what kind of argument is this?

So you are gonna die anyway, so why not kill the person beside you...hey he is gonna die anyway too :rolleyes:

.... Plants have feelings too... think they like being crunched up any more then an animal does? *shrugs*

Yes, they have feelings but they are not sentient.

FYI, some veggies (Jains particularly) do not eat root based food (onions, potatoes etc) since it involves killing the plant.

Despite what all the health obsessed idiots out there think, extending your life by a few years really isn't all that worth while. Think about it. Suppose that normally you'd live to be 80, but if you give up meat, you could live another 4 years. Big deal. All you are getting are years 81, 82, 83 and 84. Those years suck anyway no matter what sort of diet you have, so why bother giving up things you enjoy if all you're getting are a few extra years of being old.


It's not just extending your life for a few years, it's improving the quality of your life.

The Seventh-Day Adventists in Loma Linda, CA are among the longest-lived people in the world, some in their 90's and still active and healthy. When you consider that Loma Linda is in one of the most populous, polluted regions of Southern California, this is remarkable. It is a direct result of diet and attitude.

I'll make one. Want my address? :p

Sure. ;)

Sure. ;)

--------

*HA!*

I win. Why do I win? You're in Oregon, everyone has my address now, and I'm still f-ing single. *Hooray*

a vegetarian diet may be healthier, but if i've had a night on the booze, the next morning i want bacon butties dammit, not nut cutlets.

Some of the things I read in this article may be also very easily traced to other non-related personality traits.

Always possible. However, given the array of scientific research published in peer-reviewed journals that suggests benefits to vegetarianism, I would imagine that some referee would have caught such a glaring error in the study designs by now.

I'd imagine that your average vegetarian is far more likely to be an avid exerciser, far less likely to be a smoker and somewhat less likely to drink alcohol on a regular basis.

Anecdotally, my parents, my girlfriend and I are all vegetarians. My Dad used to be a runner, but otherwise none of us gets much in the way of exercise. I walk to classes, but only because I don't have a car. While none of us smoke (umm... not cigarettes, anyway... ;)), my parents spend several nights a week in their favorite martini bar, and between us my father and I have an extremely large collection of scotch, wine, and absinth... which we certainly are not "saving for a special occasion"!

I'd want to see a study that would account for these factors in a group of your standard omnivorous people.

I suspect that most if not all peer-reviewed studies make an attempt to do so. Check the journals, you should not have any trouble finding one.

Beyond that, what good is living forever if you don't have any fun?

What's so great about eating flesh? I don't think I'm missing anything. And, given that I will probably live not only a longer life, but also a healthier one, I'll be having all kinds of fun while you're on a respirator. :D

It's hard to find vegetarian guys.

It's hard to find vegetarian guys.

What about guys who don't eat vegetarian, but are willing to eat out vegetarians?

arf

Some of the things I read in this article may be also very easily traced to other non-related personality traits. I'd imagine that your average vegetarian is far more likely to be an avid exerciser, far less likely to be a smoker and somewhat less likely to drink alcohol on a regular basis. I'd want to see a study that would account for these factors in a group of your standard omnivorous people.

Beyond that, what good is living forever if you don't have any fun?
Who needs meat to have fun? I've been a Jain for all my life and have never eaten meat, but I have tons of fun.

It's hard to find vegetarian guys.
You're right, because females care more about the environment/the plight of animals. I happen to be a vegetarian guy.

Despite what all the health obsessed idiots out there think, extending your life by a few years really isn't all that worth while. Think about it. Suppose that normally you'd live to be 80, but if you give up meat, you could live another 4 years. Big deal. All you are getting are years 81, 82, 83 and 84. Those years suck anyway no matter what sort of diet you have, so why bother giving up things you enjoy if all you're getting are a few extra years of being old.

Right... although, considering the kinds of diseases vegetarianism seems likely to prevent, you may be adding 10 or 20 years in some cases.

More importantly, imagine that normally you'd live to be 80... but by 40 your sex life is already suffering, by 55 you feel "too old" for many enjoyable physical activities, by 65 you spend most of your time idle and you're starting to feel sick and ill a lot of the time, and by 75 you're in and out of hospitals.

Now imagine that you live to be 84... and at 60 you're still going strong, and at 70 you've "slowed down" but you still feel fit and healthy, and your heart finally gives out at 84 in the midst of your morning walk, not in a nursing home bed.

If that's the choice, does your decision change?

Humans have canine teeth for a reason. To eat meat.
I don't want cow teeth ...

http://www.forensicdentistryonline.org/Tooth_morphology/adult_canine_morph.htm

Having a Vegetarian diet makes it extremely hard to build muscle. Thats why im not a vegetarian anymore. Besides every bodybuilder I have spoken to eats meat regularly.
Actually, it's kind of easy for me at least. As long as you get enough nutrients, you'll do fine if you're a vegetarian (but you're not).

Actually, it's kind of easy for me at least. As long as you get enough nutrients, you'll do fine if you're a vegetarian (but you're not).

PLEASE SEE MY POST #123. :D

Humans have canine teeth for a reason. To eat meat.
I don't want cow teeth ...

http://www.forensicdentistryonline.org/Tooth_morphology/adult_canine_morph.htm
I checked the link, and it really had nothing about why people should eat meat because of their teeth. Human teeth are less sharp than dog's teeth, if you haven't noticed...
The evolutionary process has yet to achieve the point where humans were made to eat meat, but if it ever goes that far, it'll be easy to tell that the human race will have gone over the hill by then.

PLEASE SEE MY POST #123. :D
I already read it a while ago.
That was an interesting link though.

I checked the link, and it really had nothing about why people should eat meat because of their teeth. Human teeth are less sharp than dog's teeth, if you haven't noticed...
The evolutionary process has yet to achieve the point where humans were made to eat meat, but if it ever goes that far, it'll be easy to tell that the human race will have gone over the hill by then.

POST #123, not 135. Anyway, here's the bloody link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/02/wglad02.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/02/ixworld.html

I already read it a while ago.
That was an interesting link though.

Well anyway, it relates to what you were saying up there ^ ^ ^

I checked the link, and it really had nothing about why people should eat meat because of their teeth. Human teeth are less sharp than dog's teeth, if you haven't noticed...
The evolutionary process has yet to achieve the point where humans were made to eat meat, but if it ever goes that far, it'll be easy to tell that the human race will have gone over the hill by then.

If we were meant to be vegetarian, we would not need the canine teeth. Ours are smaller than the critters of the past but they are longer and sharper than our other teeth. Canines are designed to tear into tougher food.

Humans are omivores by design - we eat both meat and vegetables.

Vegetarianistica'] was he a nut?


He was bipolar.

He was bipolar.

Probably not too surprising, knowing what he knew. Don't blame the guy.

Probably not too surprising, knowing what he knew. Don't blame the guy.


Interestingly enough, most "geniuses," be they famous or merely general geniuses, are bipolar and/or manic.

Interestingly enough, most "geniuses," be they famous or merely general geniuses, are bipolar and/or manic.

Maybe it's just a chemical imbalance in the brain which favours certain brain functions over others, hence this problem.

Interestingly enough, most "geniuses," be they famous or merely general geniuses, are bipolar and/or manic.

Yup. It's an amazing and interesting complex. Knowledge leading to insanity. Well, then, is this not leading us to conclude that God, supposing there is one, with his infinite knowledge, *Is completely Insane* ? :D *God -- The Manic-Depressive* hehehe...

Yup. It's an amazing and interesting complex. Knowledge leading to insanity. Well, then, is this not leading us to conclude that God, supposing there is one, with his infinite knowledge, *Is completely Insane* ? :D *God -- The Manic-Depressive* hehehe...



If I were omniscient, I'd just feel cool...