NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a friend who is very suicidal. Had already tried to kill himself once by overdose.

His psychiatrists (he's been to several over the course of many years) have had him on several different kinds of meds, he has seen a hypnotherapist, and has just today went to see yet another doctor because he just can't get out of his deeply depressed state.

This new doctor wants to either put him on hew meds, up his current dosage or admit him and give him electroshock. The new doctor called his psychiatrist and gave these suggestions to which the psychiatrist says is out of the question.

What really struck me was the suggestion for electroshock. I thought that it was considered a barbaric practice and no longer used but apparently I am mistaken.

Does anyone here know anything about electroshock therapy?

Do you know anyone who has gone through it and have had it help them (especially when it comes to depression)?

my mom had electro shock therapy in 1994 for her Bi-polar disorder, it really screwed her up, she can't remember most of her childhood now (actually she only remembers from age 25 on, but can't remember my childhood pre-1994)
It didn't help her bi-polar disorder at all, in fact it made it worse, she has attempted suicide 6 times since. I think her dr. was an idiot, but they wouldn't listent to me, they let her (mentally unstable) and my dad (drunk) sign the papers and she is still paying for it.

I may not have the most "un-biased" view though. hope someone else can help.

I'm no expert but I've heard contradictory things about electroshock. Some say that it can instantly and dramatically end depression, at least for a while. Others say it's basically a small scale closed-skull lobotomy.

What really struck me was the suggestion for electroshock. I thought that it was considered a barbaric practice and no longer used but apparently I am mistaken.
Whoa, I had no idea electroshock therapy was still around. So, sorry I can't help you, but I'll be very interested to hear what people who know more about it have to say.


ETA: Here's a link I just found: http://www.electroboy.com/electroshocktherapy.htm. It's a site about fighting depression and bipolar disorder.

I'm no expert but I've heard contradictory things about electroshock. Some say that it can instantly and dramatically end depression, at least for a while. Others say it's basically a small scale closed-skull lobotomy.


I just found an article about it where apparently the only thing bad that comes from it is spotty memory loss (maybe).

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/22/1728_55981?src=Inktomi&condition=Home%20&%20Top%20Stories

Whoa, I had no idea electroshock therapy was still around. So, sorry I can't help you, but I'll be very interested to hear what people who know more about it have to say.


ETA: Here's a link I just found: http://www.electroboy.com/electroshocktherapy.htm. It's a site about fighting depression and bipolar disorder.


I'll check it out. Yeah I was surprised myself. Check out the link I just posted to find out more too.

I think my friend shoudl move to the Netherlands: http://reuters.iwon.com/article/20060202/2006-02-02T154506Z_01_L01195905_RTRIDST_0_ODD-DUTCH-CANNABIS-DC.html

I used to have severe depression and pot always helped me :D

I just found an article about it where apparently the only thing bad that comes from it is spotty memory loss (maybe).

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/22/1728_55981?src=Inktomi&condition=Home%20&%20Top%20Stories
Like I said, I'm no expert. I was just repeating what I've heard.

As far as I know there are no medical benefits to Electroshock therapy that have not been duplicated by other means. That being said, I think that electroshock is trades expediency and rapid results for a large uncertainty factor.

As others have said, there is no guarantee it'll work and a rather large risk it'll make matters worse. If such a decision were up to me, I wouldn't even consider it unless for some reason(such as deep suicidal depression) time was a factor. Even then, I'd have to be convinced that a safe environment couldn't be arranged. Which happens. SOme people are simply too clever and resourceful to be kept 'safe'. Nevertheless, it'd be my LAST option.

electroshock was one of the few practices not abandoned from the 70's and pre-meds period. The reason it is left is because, in a signifigant portion of those it is used on, it works. There are potential complications (as with any other procedure).

Yeah apparently there is an 80% (as opposed tot he 50% success rate of anti-depressants) success rate to help relieve depression with only a slight chance (20%) of memory loss.

I too would only use it as a last resort though as noone even knows why it works.

my mom had electro shock therapy in 1994 for her Bi-polar disorder, it really screwed her up, she can't remember most of her childhood now (actually she only remembers from age 25 on, but can't remember my childhood pre-1994)
It didn't help her bi-polar disorder at all, in fact it made it worse, she has attempted suicide 6 times since. I think her dr. was an idiot, but they wouldn't listent to me, they let her (mentally unstable) and my dad (drunk) sign the papers and she is still paying for it.

I may not have the most "un-biased" view though. hope someone else can help.

Sorry I completely missed this post somehow. :confused:

Thats really skrewed up and I'm sorry to hear that Smunkee. Did they want to try it because nothing else helped?

Thats some pretty bad memory loss too.

Doesn anyone else know anyone who had undergone electroshock? I wonder how widespread it's use it and which countreis it is practiced in.

A couple interesting paragraphs from the (pretty balanced, I think) link (http://www.electroboy.com/electroshocktherapy.htm) I posted above:

How it works:
"What is most incredible is that doctors do not know why ECT actually works to fight mental illnesses, which often makes making a decision to have ECT even more difficult for a patient. It seems so unscientific and remains a mystery. But here are the major theories:

* Neurotransmitter theory. Shock works like antidepressant medication, changing the way brain receptors receive important mood-related chemicals, such as serotonin and dopamine and norepinephrine.

* Anti-convulsant theory. Shock-induced seizures teach the brain to resist seizures. This effort to inhibit seizures dampens abnormally active brain circuits, stabilizing mood.

* Neuroendocrine theory. The seizure causes the hypothalamus, part of the brain that regulates water balance and body temperature, to release chemicals that cause changes throughout the body. The seizure may release a neuropeptide that regulates mood.

* Brain damage theory. Shock damages the brain, causing memory loss and disorientation that creates a temporary illusion that problems are gone. Shock supporters strongly dispute the theory, advanced by psychiatrist Peter Breggin and other shock critics."

Does it work?:
Pro: "ECT has undergone a complete image makeover in the last twenty years. It has regained respectability. Many psychiatrists now consider it an efficient way to relieve severe depression or to break a manic cycle for the manic depressive. Its success rate, according to the American Psychiatric Association (APA), is 80%, considerably higher than the 50% to 60% success rate of most antidepressant medications. And according to ECT advocates, it can restore a severely depressed or manic patient to health in half the time it takes medication - - sometimes as little as three weeks to reach a therapeutic level."

Con: "But critics of ECT (and there are many who are quite organized and started their own anti-ECT groups) argue that it is primitive and outdated. They also believe that positive results are short-term and that patients who undergo ECT suffer cognitive problems, including significant memory loss and learning. They think that what looks like “relief” is really just the “slap-happy” effect of a head trauma. ECT’s opponents have even been so vocal and powerful that they helped pass ordinances prohibiting the use of the treatment in some cities - - including Berkeley, California (although the court later overturned the ban). There are also others who argue that it is overused and point to the fact that it is quite a lucrative treatment, usually covered by insurance."

Do you know anyone who has gone through it and have had it help them (especially when it comes to depression)?

I imagine that anything is better than being shocked into a coma; even depression would look inviting in comparison.

Sorry I completely missed this post somehow. :confused:

Thats really skrewed up and I'm sorry to hear that Smunkee. Did they want to try it because nothing else helped?
as far as I know they hadn't really tried much else, we had been told she was depressed and so they would put her on anti-depressants which would make her manic and then she would get arrested/commited for doing stupid stuff, I think when they figured out she was bipolar they tried ECT first :rolleyes: It's really messed her up, luckily if she stays on her meds, she does okay, but off them she gets really bad (which is normal for bipolars) but, the memory loss is really hard on her. She says that she has a lot of short term memory problems too, which I am starting to notice more lately (now that I am not high all the time LOL)

[QUOTE=Sumamba Buwhan]I have a friend who is very suicidal. Had already tried to kill himself once by overdose.

omega-3 essential fatty acids (kippers, salmon, oily fish, ground flax seed) work wonders for curing depression, but are sadly never recommended by western doctors.

also eat lots of whole grains, and fresh fruits and vegetables too. eliminate all trans-fats and enriched sugars and flours. switch from butter/margarine to extra virgin (cold pressed) olive oil. drink lots of water and cut back on caffeine, soda, and alcoholic drinks.

electroshock therapy is bad, bad, bad. it's basically what doctors do when they've run out of ideas. sometimes it helps, and sometimes it makes things a lot worse. it's like adding/removing random lines of gibberish to/from computer code to see what happens. there can be significant memory loss, which can be depressing all by itself, thereby compounding the problem.

your friend may find this further piece of advice trite, but there is a book called "happiness is a choice". my wife went through some really bad depression so i know this firsthand. she resisted for two years before she finally decided to read it. and it helped, because it put the mental power back in her court (took her out of victim mode).

of all these suggestions, the omega-3 addition to diet is probably the safest, easiest, and most effective suggestion -- it was the eventual "cure" to my wife's depression.

this is a politically incorrect suggestion, but marijuana might help. also melatonin supplements, especially if your friend is not sleeping very well.

the marijuana is a bad idea if your friend is hearing voices. if your friend IS hearing voices (and hasn't told anyone for fear of being labeled crazy), it is sometimes possible to bypass the taunting curses and suicidal suggestions by spending time dwelling on positive, wholesome things. try www.nderf.org for some inspiration.

suicidal thoughts are not always the 'fault' of the depression sufferer. i could say more, but perhaps i'll cut out now before i discredit the very sound diet advice given earlier in this message.

actually, i will tell you more.

i am mentally sound, with a very strong intellect. i have an ego, but i recognize its influence and seek to direct it instead of allowing myself to be driven by it.

it could be tempting to write this next part off as "delusional craziness", but your friend's current life is at stake, so i'll tell you what i know.

with certain kinds of marijuana (very stong), i am able to hear voices myself. most of them are not very kind at all. they scream, they curse, and they can cause mental anguish. spend enough time with them, and they will actually cause chemical changes to the brain that give them stronger access to your telepathic center(s).

i have a theory that these voices belong to discarnates (dead people) who have not passed along to the light/heaven because they are afraid, or unwilling, to go there. they obtain the energy they require to continue existing in the earthbound plane by robbing energy from the living, often via parasitic (dare i say 'vampiric') empathic links. it is not suprising that reduced flow of energies would cause mental sickness; after all tapeworms cause malnourishment in the physical plane.

most people find this incredibly foolish because they have never experienced it. to the depressed, or the intepid drug explorer with a mind of steel, it becomes rapidly self evident.

i would further postulate that depressed, bipolar, etc mental disorders show up more frequently in those who have a natural proclivity for empathic/telepathic/clairaudient capacity, even if they do not recognize this fact, and modern medicine certainly would be counted amoungst the 'unbelievers' here. denial = needless ignorance, yet this is the prevailing 'wisdom' in modern medicine today.

mental conditioning can improve this situation, but awareness is key -- and now you are just slightly more aware.

when i encounter these voices, i tell them to leave, but often they do not. they are mean, probably because they were mean when they were physically alive, which is also probably why there is such a high concentration of negativity in this realm... the 'nice' ones go to the light/heaven pretty quickly because they are not afraid to face 'god'.

fortunately, i have found that these abusive voices cannot exist in realms of higher purity/love. that sounds corny, but it's true. if one can think on things that are good, pure, lovely, and of good report, the brain (a spirit tuner by the way) will reselect its tuning frequency to realms that reflect these higher thoughts, and the mean discarnates are left behind because they do not desire to follow you there.

visualize a toroid (donut) floating in the "sky" somewhere above your head. most people have an awareness level that is beneath this floating toroid, and so they have 'normal' mental thought processes. we would call these people 'mentally healthy'.

people with mental disorders often have a natural 'tuning' that puts their mental awareness somewhere inside the center of this toroid. this toroid is a spinning vortex of entities, all trying to scream something at you at the same time, which can make one very grumpy if they spend enough time there. kind of like hanging out in a preschool without any controls placed on the amount of noise the children are allowed to make.

if one pauses to think about (concentrate) on one of these voices (or a group of them), the brain tunes to their frequency and whatever they have to say (usually abusive/deceptive/etc) will fill the tuner's head. if one is not aware enough, they might mistake these voices for their own internal thought dialogue, when in fact not all of the internal thought dialogue is sourced by the suffering individual!

(i'm really sad. nothing makes me happy. life is dreary. nobody understands me. i'm grumpy all the time. maybe i should just end it all and get some peace... are those thoughts really *yours* or are they *planted*?)

finally, the "top" of this murky toroid is light where the mental abusers do not wish to venture. thinking positive thoughts consistantly will retune the brain to pick up information/experiences in the more positive realms that exist there, and as a result the depression inducing voices will fade into insignificance. they are still there, but your brain is not tuning them as much, so their effect on one's consciousness is lessened.

by the way, meditation is a very good way to disipline the mind, but this can take a long time. drugs are faster, but have side effects. diet is the best first step because the dietary suggestions made earlier replenish some of the mental areas being drained by these psychic parasites.

crazy stuff. good luck!

www.starbelt.com

Yeah apparently there is an 80% (as opposed tot he 50% success rate of anti-depressants) success rate to help relieve depression with only a slight chance (20%) of memory loss.

I too would only use it as a last resort though as noone even knows why it works.

it probably works by stimulating the brain to release natural endorphins for awhile to mask the pain and brain scarring.

I imagine that anything is better than being shocked into a coma; even depression would look inviting in comparison.


Not severe depression. When one wishes one was dead because of it, a coma might seem like the second best choice.

omega-3 essential fatty acids (kippers, salmon, oily fish, ground flax seed) work wonders for curing depression, but are sadly never recommended by western doctors.

also eat lots of whole grains, and fresh fruits and vegetables too. eliminate all trans-fats and enriched sugars and flours. switch from butter/margarine to extra virgin (cold pressed) olive oil. drink lots of water and cut back on caffeine, soda, and alcoholic drinks.

electroshock therapy is bad, bad, bad. it's basically what doctors do when they've run out of ideas. sometimes it helps, and sometimes it makes things a lot worse. it's like adding/removing random lines of gibberish to/from computer code to see what happens. there can be significant memory loss, which can be depressing all by itself, thereby compounding the problem.

your friend may find this further piece of advice trite, but there is a book called "happiness is a choice". my wife went through some really bad depression so i know this firsthand. she resisted for two years before she finally decided to read it. and it helped, because it put the mental power back in her court (took her out of victim mode).

of all these suggestions, the omega-3 addition to diet is probably the safest, easiest, and most effective suggestion -- it was the eventual "cure" to my wife's depression.

this is a politically incorrect suggestion, but marijuana might help. also melatonin supplements, especially if your friend is not sleeping very well.

the marijuana is a bad idea if your friend is hearing voices. if your friend IS hearing voices (and hasn't told anyone for fear of being labeled crazy), it is sometimes possible to bypass the taunting curses and suicidal suggestions by spending time dwelling on positive, wholesome things. try www.nderf.org for some inspiration.

suicidal thoughts are not always the 'fault' of the depression sufferer. i could say more, but perhaps i'll cut out now before i discredit the very sound diet advice given earlier in this message.

You and I are on the same page. Unfortunately I have given him all this advice and he wont listen to me (well he tells me those are good ideas but never follows thru). For some reason he thinks the doctors years of guesswork experimentation on him is the best plan despite their years of failure. I have given him diet suggestions and homeopathic remedies, told him about the mental benefits of exercise, gave him visualization exercises, recommended good reading material that sounds very similar to what you proposed.

I don't think he is hearing voices, he is always straightforward with me and would tell me if he was because he knows I am much more insane than he could ever be.

I heard a program about it on NPR recently. The ECT they use now is much more controlled than what they used to do, but is still not fully understood. It has success in some cases, usually with some memory loss (although most of the cases they were talking about were short-term, not long-term, memory).

I haven't actually read any studies on it, and certainly would before ever getting it or recommending it to anyone.

Unless a person is elderly or in a catonic state then electroshock is not the answer. As a psychiatric nurse I have seen this babaric treatment, which is barbaric because we do not know how it works and some practitioners do not sedate patients enough, general anaesethetic is required. For the elderly monthly therapies help them to survive and have some enjoyment.

Your friend may always see the glass as half empty but if they could find a reason to get up then they may get a life. To find that reason may always require medication to bring their brain chemistry in line with a pessimist. Only then can they make themselves happy, any therapy will only clear the way for them to become positive about their life.




I have a friend who is very suicidal. Had already tried to kill himself once by overdose.

His psychiatrists (he's been to several over the course of many years) have had him on several different kinds of meds, he has seen a hypnotherapist, and has just today went to see yet another doctor because he just can't get out of his deeply depressed state.

This new doctor wants to either put him on hew meds, up his current dosage or admit him and give him electroshock. The new doctor called his psychiatrist and gave these suggestions to which the psychiatrist says is out of the question.

What really struck me was the suggestion for electroshock. I thought that it was considered a barbaric practice and no longer used but apparently I am mistaken.

Does anyone here know anything about electroshock therapy?

Do you know anyone who has gone through it and have had it help them (especially when it comes to depression)?

I've asked a friend of mine about this. he's a mental health pro. at his practice they use a combination of talking therapy, life-style evaluation, group therapy, and sometimes medication, as appropriate for each patient. he says that even with severe depressions they don't find the need to use ECT, even though theoretically there could be such a thing as somebody so desperate they should be referred for ECT as a last resort. at his practice they start by considering ECT unnecessary. I guess it would take an awful lot for them to move from that because he says they've never used it so far.

strictly speaking he said he couldn't ethically make any direct recommendations to someone not his patient, but he 'strongly suggested' your buddy should get another opinion or maybe more than one.

one thing he said to tell you is that for awhile there was some medical opinion that considered the possibility that some drugs including marijuana might help some people sometimes. a few researchers even experimented with it. But now more research is coming in and the risk of long term negative side-effects of most 'recreational' drugs. so he said to say it exactly this way to avoid any misunderstanding. 'it's not that all depressed people always have bad side-effects. it's that any depressed person can have certain symptoms as part of their condition that will make such drugs very risky for them.' one thing he said is something about how with severe depressions people are prone to delusions, and giving drugs that can cause hallucinations to people who already have delusions and distorted something-or-other is bad for them. I don't remember exactly what he said and he's not answering his phone. anyway he said that there's a difference between an ordinary person having a spliff when they're 'down' and a seriously depressed person doing the same thing. he doesn't think your friend should take the risk.

I see we have a psychiatric nurse here, so maybe he/she can explain it better than I can.

I wish the best of luck to you with your friend and to your friend with his life. sounds like you really need to help him get other advice.

You and I are on the same page. Unfortunately I have given him all this advice and he wont listen to me (well he tells me those are good ideas but never follows thru). For some reason he thinks the doctors years of guesswork experimentation on him is the best plan despite their years of failure. I have given him diet suggestions and homeopathic remedies, told him about the mental benefits of exercise, gave him visualization exercises, recommended good reading material that sounds very similar to what you proposed.

I don't think he is hearing voices, he is always straightforward with me and would tell me if he was because he knows I am much more insane than he could ever be.
there is a lot of trial and error when it comes to treating depression, and when it comes down to it, it may take meds and behavioral therepy to get him back to an undepressed state (which may or may not be "normal' for him) I would suggest trying to get him to read Feeling Good, (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452281326/104-8092150-9103144?v=glance&n=283155) it has a lot of info on different medical treatments and combos of drugs, plus some things you can do to help your self out a little, I swear to you it changed my life, it's good reading for you too, it may help you understand him even more and be able to help him out.

Thanks for the info and suggestions everyone.

I just found out that my friend is in the hospital from having a bad reaction to his meds (At least that is what his parents are saying). Anyway I will do my best to help him and will pass on the information you gave me.

Firstly attempting suicide is statistically normal with 99% of people trying it at least once, if only half-heartedly.

Electro-shock is... well. If done properly and with scientific precision and exact mathmatics a miracle worker.

But if the slightest mistake is made you go :confused: :confused: and probobly end up MUCH worse.

I would personally undergo the treatment but never allow others i love to.

I have a friend who is very suicidal. Had already tried to kill himself once by overdose.

His psychiatrists (he's been to several over the course of many years) have had him on several different kinds of meds, he has seen a hypnotherapist, and has just today went to see yet another doctor because he just can't get out of his deeply depressed state.

This new doctor wants to either put him on hew meds, up his current dosage or admit him and give him electroshock. The new doctor called his psychiatrist and gave these suggestions to which the psychiatrist says is out of the question.

What really struck me was the suggestion for electroshock. I thought that it was considered a barbaric practice and no longer used but apparently I am mistaken.

Does anyone here know anything about electroshock therapy?

Do you know anyone who has gone through it and have had it help them (especially when it comes to depression)?

Worked for my mother's bipolar, but only for a couple of years at a time. So she had the procedure repeated again and again over the years.

Worked for my sister in law, but it took eight treatments.

I think it's guesswork - it doesn't sound very precise or scientific to me.

Usually they use it when meds aren't working and they have no other choice between that and permanent institutionalization.

Welp, he is locked up in a behavioral treatment center (although he could leave whenever he wants to) and I got to see him for an hour (we tried to bring him homemade cookies but they wouldn't let us bring them in for him).

He said they are going to go ahead and give him electro shock treatments. he said he did research on it and knows the risks of experiencing memory loss (the doctor didn't actually tell him about the side effects can you believe that shit?) but he doesnt care.

Anyway, I thought I woud share that. I hope it all turns out well for him, the doctor told him there is a 90% chance of it helping him, which I think was an exaggeration. :(

I have a friend who is very suicidal. Had already tried to kill himself once by overdose.

His psychiatrists (he's been to several over the course of many years) have had him on several different kinds of meds, he has seen a hypnotherapist, and has just today went to see yet another doctor because he just can't get out of his deeply depressed state.

This new doctor wants to either put him on hew meds, up his current dosage or admit him and give him electroshock. The new doctor called his psychiatrist and gave these suggestions to which the psychiatrist says is out of the question.

What really struck me was the suggestion for electroshock. I thought that it was considered a barbaric practice and no longer used but apparently I am mistaken.

Does anyone here know anything about electroshock therapy?

Do you know anyone who has gone through it and have had it help them (especially when it comes to depression)?


my grandpa got shock theropy becaues he was really depressed...it has helped emencialy...i really do sugjust it for any one who had tryed meds with out them working

Anyway, I thought I woud share that. I hope it all turns out well for him, the doctor told him there is a 90% chance of it helping him, which I think was an exaggeration. :(

its only the short term memory that is effected and only for a few weeks, the 90% is not an exageration...i hope that this works for your friend.

my father in law has been suffering from severe depression for that last few years(and probably for most of his life undiagnosed). he hasn't had good success with meds but his success with electroshock has been dramatic but somewhat fleeting. he gets bad, he gets shocked, he is disoriented for a few days, he lives a relatively normal life for a few weeks to a couple months, he begins to go down again, the process repeats.

i'm not sure about permanent problems because we're not that close and he doesn't talk much on his best day, but i suspect he is suffering cumulative brain damage of some sort, but what ya gonna do... keeps him out of the hospital and employed at his same job(for the last better than 30 years).

Thanks p33pz - I'll keep ya updated on any progress or lack thereof.

Well he went thru the electroschock therapy and subsequently lost a lot of his recent memory. He said it did help him with his anxiety/depression but they also started him on a new drug at the same time so it's not conclusive that it was the ECT that really helped. oh well at least he is better for now.... sure sucks to have to hear all his life stories again because he forgot he ever told me about it though :p