NationStates Jolt Archive

All right, seeing as how many religious/political/moral debates there are on NS I thought it would be interesting to see how many of them have actually done any good.

So vote away.

One or two have.

Depends on the issue. If it's a major issue , I usually have a pretty strong opinion. On smaller things, I might reconsider my opinion if someone gives a convincing argument.

Here and there, maybe on some minor things. I can't remember what right now, though.

There actually are some polite, intelligent people around here. They're worth giving a listen to now and then.

once or twice, although it's been a while since anyone actually made an intelligent argument that wasn't the exact same thing I was saying.

Some points have changed in some cases.....

Well, when I started on this forum a little less than a year ago, I was a mild conservative and a fairly devout Christian. There have been many influences on my beliefs since then, and I have to count this site as one of them. Now I guess I’m a libertarian or something similar and while not an atheist, I am antinominalistic.

NS moved me from Atheism to Agnosticism. I don't know if that counts as minor or not - it's done sweet F.A. for my general view on life, tbh.

Yes, in more than one way.
Many times, they serve as eye-opener, sometimes cementing my position, sometimes forcing me to view it from a different angle.
One thing NS arguments achieved was turning me from a Catholic to an agnostic (no, it wasn't the atheists' doing, actually the Christians finally convinced me)
They never work straightforward, but they do have effects on my views.

Well, when I started on this forum a little less than a year ago, I was a mild conservative and a fairly devout Christian.
:p

I've always believed that truth is there to be found. I now know several things it isn't. Thanks, NationStates! =p

Seriously, though, it has been nice to be able to engage in discussions with people of other ideas. I like to think that, in turn, I've helped to instill a healthy cynicism into people of every walk of life.

Do NS arguments actually convince you?
Many do. Of the fact that stupidity does indeed know no borders.

On a serious note, I only very rarely engage in the "debates" where arguments actually worh being called such are made. But as I will change my mind IRL when somebody just gives me the better arguments/facts on something, I guess it could be done here as well.

No, because I haven't been involved in any really serious debate on a really serious issue.

It may not have been NS that changed my intire world view but the internet has changed my intire world view. It was with the direction of the internet that I leaned that Evangelical Christianity is bogus and I thankfully lost my faith and gained myself. There are a lot of intelligent people that debate here at NS. The are many religious loons who are the way I used to be. I think the discussions here have helped my rifine my world view to be in an even greater scale of accuracy as to what the world really is.

Yes. I have grown since coming to this board.

:p
:mad:

... but give it a chance. I've only been using this for a couple of weeks!

So far, it has been interesting/reassuring to see that:
- not everyone in the US is a right-wing, flag-waving gun :mp5: nut.
- atheists can be just as irrational and closed-minded as the deeply religious.
- umm... :)

:mad:
:p :p :p

I had no idea that the first two humans were Adam and Eve -- I'd always been under the impression that they were Adam and Steve -- until about 5 minutes ago.

Well, I think it helped a lot to push me from a fairly ordinary conservative to an anarchist. The internet in general probably changed my on religion.

Actually, now that I think about it, some ns arguments have convinced me. Instead of not having an opinion about a particular subject, I wind up coming away with one, half the time in contrast to the opinion of the OP.

I tend to be all for people presenting information, but when it comes to getting steered into a certain direction, I start to take things with a grain of salt. When it comes to being told I should think a certain way, that's when digging in one's heels and trench warfare is called for.

It's changed my mind on some minor things, and when I find something I don't have an opinion I watch for good arguements from both sides before I decide for myself.

They've influenced my thought before.

Occasionally there's an argument on here that I agree with and find myself using later. :)

Instead of changing my viewpoint, I've actually strengthened my arguments with the logic of others that have been debating my viewpoint. Quite a few times, people have added something to my viewpoint that I had never thought of, and now consider it an active part of my repertoire.

Most people have an opinion on issues before becoming at all educated in them. Arguing about these issues makes me think and read about the issue so I always come away with something.

I have to admit that my positons have had some changes that may have at least been partially influenced by arguments made here. Almost never as the one arguing intended. Most of the social causes and arguments that I at one time supported, are being championed by malicious, uninformed and downright dishonest pundents, who either parroting what they read from special interest group publications, without checking the facts, or simply make the shit up as they go and declare it as fact. I realize that useful idiots can be found most anywhere one looks, however, I believe the tatics these folks use send far more people fleeing their ranks that they bring on board.

Cases in point: I used to be strongly in favor of the basic principals of the gay rights agenda, however, the militant pundents here and there have proven they have a much broader and different agenda than what they claim, therefore nullifying any consideration or support they had from me. Your flagrant disregard for the truth and willingness to use falsified information on a constant and continuing basis kills any support, empathy or consideration from me.

Athiests- A group I once believed to be one that only wanted to live and let live, have become probably the most sanctimonious, arrogant and inmature bunch of little bigots of any group I have ever seen. I used to believe that you had the same rights that anyone else does, but your relentless, vile attacks and complete disregard for the rights of others leaves me believing that whatever misfortune comes of your behaivor toward others...you have only yourselves to blame. I see you in the same light now as I do the KKK.

Canadians - What can I say. I fought along side some of your finest young men in the US Army, but times change and so do Allys. I no longer consider Canada an ally along with the other 52% of americans. This I see as a genuine shame.

I am sure there is probably many more examples that I could include, and these are of course only my opionions, however, I would be willing to bet that there are a whole butt load of people that share the same reconsiderations.

When someone makes a good arguement that is well thought out it's great. There are times when I just say "I agree".

It's kind of a bummer when arguements are based on nothing but "I believe". There are so many people today that make up their mind first--then will only look for things that support their position. It's hard to debate them because they only read other posts to find the littlest thing to pick on rather than address the overall message. Then if they find nothing else they complain about typing errors.

I registered with both the Republican and Democratic parties so I could get information from both sides. Seeing both sides makes for better decisions, and on here, better arguements.

I once encountered an argument so extraordinarily well-backed-up for why it is, indeed, best for guys to put the seat down after they pee (despite the fact that 'we need it up, you need it down') that I conceeded the point unconditionally...

Of course, there've been some others, but that's the most amusing one.

They used to. Now it's all a giant joke.

So far, it has been interesting/reassuring to see that:
- not everyone in the US is a right-wing, flag-waving gun :mp5: nut.
Because not everyone is the US! :)

- atheists can be just as irrational and closed-minded as the deeply religious.
In their own special way.

- umm... :)
Yum!

I had no idea that the first two humans were Adam and Eve -- I'd always been under the impression that they were Adam and Steve -- until about 5 minutes ago.
I want to see that Bible.

Actually, now that I think about it, some ns arguments have convinced me. Instead of not having an opinion about a particular subject, I wind up coming away with one, half the time in contrast to the opinion of the OP.
Yay!!

I tend to be all for people presenting information, but when it comes to getting steered into a certain direction, I start to take things with a grain of salt. When it comes to being told I should think a certain way, that's when digging in one's heels and trench warfare is called for.
That grain of salt is other people's opinions. ;)

All right, seeing as how many religious/political/moral debates there are on NS I thought it would be interesting to see how many of them have actually done any good.

So vote away.
They have convinced me that you are all idiots and that i am the only saviour of this world.
My first act will be to destroy it.

They have convinced me that you are all idiots and that i am the only saviour of this world.
My first act will be to destroy it.
And how does that make you a saviour?

Somehow, I am missing out on the whole "saving" thing.

What I hate, is that I read a horribly concieved counterpoint on these forums.
And them I'm arguing in real life.
And I hear the exact same arguement.
Is there a government branch somewhere, handing out pamphlets on how to argue?
Because if there is, that'll save me a whole lot of time.

For me NS is a very rich Source of Information... The flow of different viewpoints is amazing..

I have learned a lot of things about a great deal of things.. Like Hinduism or Islam about Judaism and the different kinds of Christian ism.. about Australia and NZ.. about Nazists and Anarchists..

all that information has some influence on me.. I am richer now.

Liverbreath : better be hated by 52% of the american than by 80% of the world, don't you think :p ??? I consider that people putting atheists in the same rank as kkk makes them violent and arrogant toward religious people.

Me, what piss me off is people who believe nothing can change, and this is their main argument for not stopping the thing they do wrong ... I personnaly believe that one day, we'll be able to put some internationl rules that will allow society to put a stop on slavery, wild capitalism, and bad condition. But we have to start somewhere.

So far, some issues made me think twice about things, but they never made me change side.

Cases in point: I used to be strongly in favor of the basic principals of the gay rights agenda, however, the militant pundents here and there have proven they have a much broader and different agenda than what they claim, therefore nullifying any consideration or support they had from me. Your flagrant disregard for the truth and willingness to use falsified information on a constant and continuing basis kills any support, empathy or consideration from me.

Athiests- A group I once believed to be one that only wanted to live and let live, have become probably the most sanctimonious, arrogant and inmature bunch of little bigots of any group I have ever seen. I used to believe that you had the same rights that anyone else does, but your relentless, vile attacks and complete disregard for the rights of others leaves me believing that whatever misfortune comes of your behaivor toward others...you have only yourselves to blame. I see you in the same light now as I do the KKK.

Canadians - What can I say. I fought along side some of your finest young men in the US Army, but times change and so do Allys. I no longer consider Canada an ally along with the other 52% of americans. This I see as a genuine shame.
:)

So how do you feel about Cardassian?

All right, seeing as how many religious/political/moral debates there are on NS I thought it would be interesting to see how many of them have actually done any good.

So vote away.
I've changed a few significant viewpoints because of NS General, yes. Generally speaking, they have resulted in my edging a bit more to the left, as evidenced by the changes in my "Political Compass" scores.

It's for certain changed my view of most leftists.

I've changed a few significant viewpoints because of NS General, yes. Generally speaking, they have resulted in my edging a bit more to the left, as evidenced by the changes in my "Political Compass" scores.

It's for certain changed my view of most leftists.
You? Lefter?

Say it isn't so!

Reading these forums made me lose my little remaining faith in a higher power.

I am now pretty agnostic. After seeing so many differing view points on religion, I didn't see how I could proclaim my own faith the one true faith, like the rest of my family, and I now really don't know what to believe at all.

I'm very confused.

I'm very confused.
So, are you just questioning your faith, for example, Lutheranism?
Or are you doubting the existence of God?
If your just doubting your faith, your still theist just so you know.
And believing in God doesn't mean accepting a religion.

You? Lefter?

Say it isn't so!
Re-read it. I said I've "edged leftward," not converted! LOL!

Reading these forums made me lose my little remaining faith in a higher power.

I am now pretty agnostic. After seeing so many differing view points on religion, I didn't see how I could proclaim my own faith the one true faith, like the rest of my family, and I now really don't know what to believe at all.

I'm very confused.
You have taken the first step toward becoming who you decide to be. My congratulations. :)

For the most part it's weeded out some bullshit arguments, which is part of why I'm here, so cool.

It's more of a refinement. A lot of excuses I was willing to make as caveats don't fly as much anymore. It makes me seem less flexable, I think that the flexability is still there it just has to be earned a little more.

I've started to look at repeated things a little different. The more it's said and the more 'matter of fact' and simple it's conveyed the more I don't trust it. I call it the "McDonalds Coffee Effect." It's one of those things that seem like 'common sense' until you actually hear the details. I'm a lot more leary of the McDonald's Coffee Effect now than I was when I started on Nationstates.

I have to admit that my positons have had some changes that may have at least been partially influenced by arguments made here. Almost never as the one arguing intended. Most of the social causes and arguments that I at one time supported, are being championed by malicious, uninformed and downright dishonest pundents, who either parroting what they read from special interest group publications, without checking the facts, or simply make the shit up as they go and declare it as fact. I realize that useful idiots can be found most anywhere one looks, however, I believe the tatics these folks use send far more people fleeing their ranks that they bring on board.

Cases in point: I used to be strongly in favor of the basic principals of the gay rights agenda, however, the militant pundents here and there have proven they have a much broader and different agenda than what they claim, therefore nullifying any consideration or support they had from me. Your flagrant disregard for the truth and willingness to use falsified information on a constant and continuing basis kills any support, empathy or consideration from me.

Athiests- A group I once believed to be one that only wanted to live and let live, have become probably the most sanctimonious, arrogant and inmature bunch of little bigots of any group I have ever seen. I used to believe that you had the same rights that anyone else does, but your relentless, vile attacks and complete disregard for the rights of others leaves me believing that whatever misfortune comes of your behaivor toward others...you have only yourselves to blame. I see you in the same light now as I do the KKK.

Canadians - What can I say. I fought along side some of your finest young men in the US Army, but times change and so do Allys. I no longer consider Canada an ally along with the other 52% of americans. This I see as a genuine shame.

I am sure there is probably many more examples that I could include, and these are of course only my opionions, however, I would be willing to bet that there are a whole butt load of people that share the same reconsiderations.

Wow...I see that you take the vocal majority to be how 99% of the atheists/canadians/gays feel?

I find it questionable that you were FOR atheists and gays before, and now are not. Was it all the rational, fair tactics, honesty based information that right-wing Christians were handing out?

I feel bad for the gay Canadian atheist who runs into you! :p

Sometimes I change a little but it is because I developed my argument so perfectly that it lead somewhere a little different than I had expected and so I convince myself of something. Basically I am the most convincing force on Earth.

No, they are all just interesting to read.

Wow...I see that you take the vocal majority to be how 99% of the atheists/canadians/gays feel?

I find it questionable that you were FOR atheists and gays before, and now are not. Was it all the rational, fair tactics, honesty based information that right-wing Christians were handing out?

I feel bad for the gay Canadian atheist who runs into you! :p

I feel bad for the air he breathes.

Liverbreath : better be hated by 52% of the american than by 80% of the world, don't you think :p ??? I consider that people putting atheists in the same rank as kkk makes them violent and arrogant toward religious people.

Me, what piss me off is people who believe nothing can change, and this is their main argument for not stopping the thing they do wrong ... I personnaly believe that one day, we'll be able to put some internationl rules that will allow society to put a stop on slavery, wild capitalism, and bad condition. But we have to start somewhere.

So far, some issues made me think twice about things, but they never made me change side.

I realize your opening statement was meant partially in jest, so please dont take offense if i use it as an example as to how NS users change peoples minds in ways they do not want. My figure of 52% comes from a valid annual poll that is well know and done annually over several years. Your statistic is based on nothing other than a wild and ficticious number you pulled out of a hat and presented it as some sort of "truth". A seemingly harmless yet never the less dishonest, distortion of the truth. However, if we were to get a real group of 80% of the worlds population, the lions share of them would give anything to come to this land you claim they hate. It is these very sorts of invented "truths" that completely turn me off from someone's point of view. How can one respect another's point of view, if they so easily try to mislead someone into seeing it?

I am not a religious person at all and frankly never have been, however the antagonism, attacks, slander and general disrespect for others comes entirely from the side of the militant athiest. Being viewed in the light of the KKK, by me, is a direct result of the relentless and unprovoked attacks that they continually use, thinking that somehow they will garner support from it. Religious people here have never won my support, however, athiests have not only talked their way out of it, but driven me to support the religious people as by far the least offensive.

Slavery? Yes this is a problem in some countries in africa, yet I do not recall anyone making an issue of it. Probably because everyone would agree and I don't believe that is allowed here. Wild Capitalism and bad condition? Anything taken to an extreme is a bad thing, however, from the places in the world I have been bad conditions have been caused by dictators that rule under the guise of socialism and I have seen first hand the result of the welfare state. It is the removal of the incentive to succeed that foster the conditions for social rot and the decline it living standards. I find the definition of poor to be entirely different here than it is in other places and I find it quite silly to hear someone here with two cars, wall to wall carpet, central air, an X box, cable TV, IPOD's, microwave, and swimming pool to make a claim that they are downtrodden and abused by the EVEL CORPORATION. Yet they do.

International standards sound nice and give everyone warm fuzzy feelings, however, those standards mean nothing when the people that put them in place live by a different set of rules than does the rest of us. We will never see it actually work in our own lifetimes. The bigger any group gets, the more impossible it is to manage.

Wow...I see that you take the vocal majority to be how 99% of the atheists/canadians/gays feel?

I find it questionable that you were FOR atheists and gays before, and now are not. Was it all the rational, fair tactics, honesty based information that right-wing Christians were handing out?

I feel bad for the gay Canadian atheist who runs into you! :p

Well, I am sorry you feel that I am a liar, however for your information my best friend and partner for 10 years is a lesbian who not only agrees with me, but did so several years before I came to the same conclusions. My opinions in these four instances are based entirely on the actions of the individual groups and their own behaivor, and the ethical traits that they as a group subscribe to.

In the case of Canada, I still have many friends that are Canadian, and some and among the most respected people I know. The fact that I do not consider them allys, is based mainly on their previous governments actions, and the outright hatred for the US as demonstrated by large numbers of pundents who have little better to do than inflate their own self worth at the expense of their allys.

Just because I may no longer support a given group or their agenda, does not mean that I do not support and even care about certain individuals with those groups. I actually find that removed from the group, most people are fairly reasonable and intelligent people.

Actually I have found the overwhelming majority of christians to be infinately more honest, forgiving and unoffensive than I have found the other groups to be. In fact, it is the only group in which you could probably name the individuals that strive to drag them down in the same manner that they other groups have succumbed to. Considering there are mind boggling numbers more of them, that is a pretty significant indicator. IMHO of course.

I feel bad for the air he breathes.

And you are a prime example of the type of individual of which I speak. Thank you for your poor example.

And you are a prime example of the type of individual of which I speak. Thank you for your poor example.

I didn't present any views for you to be averted from. So actually I am not what you are talking about at all. I dislike people who judge large groups through internet forums and make comments about other people's figures being made up (80%) and then don't show the studies from which they pulled their number (52%) out of pure laziness and arrogance.

The arguments you use to justify your statements are convoluted and poorly stated. Take a class on rhetoric, seriously.


Actually I have found the overwhelming majority of christians to be infinately more honest, forgiving and unoffensive than I have found the other groups to be. In fact, it is the only group in which you could probably name the individuals that strive to drag them down in the same manner that they other groups have succumbed to. Considering there are mind boggling numbers more of them, that is a pretty significant indicator. IMHO of course.


This last paragraph here, it doesn't make sense. I still can't tell if you are saying there are a lot of Christians or a lot of people who wish to drag down Christians.

In conclusion you make very, very poor arguments. Now, this doesn't mean I disagree with your point or agree with it. What it means is you cannot present a valid or lucid argument. You also tend to generalize over large groups citing your own personal experience to back up your statements. Couple this with your use of figures that are missing their links of origin (used while actually calling someone else out on the same practice) and you've got a really, really horrible debator. Since this is a forum based largely on debate I reiterate, "I feel bad for the air he breathes" (in reference to you sir).

PS: It just dawned on me that the point you are trying to make is that stupid people with bad arguments and views are what affect your personal views the most...think that one over for awhile.

Naw. I'd even say that debates are quite useless in general ( though very entertaining ).

Human beings are not rational.
We pick arguments that suite our 'inner convictions'.
Since arguments are made from other folks 'inner convictions', the odds of such arguments swaying a body are close to nill.
Unless the recipient of the message has similar 'inner convictions' there is little practical point to arguments.

Furthermore, we live in an age of semantic indexing, linguistic programming, and framing.
These techniques don't merely require the correct wording, they also need the correct techniques and methods, which don't come across too well on a forum.
Having the correct colour for your background is simply more important than what you actually say!

I remember a series of experiments, quite a while ago, in which 2 opposing politicians simply swapped arguments, and delivered eachother's speeches.
It had no effect whatsoever on the listeners, they supported and cheered their proponents, even though the arguments were quite contrary to their inner convictions.
The 'afterwards' poll showed no change in anybody's outlook whatsoever.

People listen in the real, full-audio world to HOW you say things, not to what you actually say.

The packaging of a message is important - the actual contents matter very little.

I've had my opinions changed, and I've learned some things I didn't know before (not necessarily things I needed to know, but hey, knowledge is knowledge.) so yes.

Eh.. I may have made some minor adjustments maybe, but no real ideological changes of any substance.

I've seen some good arguments in the last year or so, but it still kinda puzzles me that anyone would go and find/lose religion based on some argument made here.. I've read most of the threads on theology here, but despite sporadic patches of solid logic, they haven't exactly been master works of religious philosophy. :p But maybe I'm missing something..

No, although I fairly consider them all.

None of them have made me do an about-face, but many of them make me stop and think, and take another factor into consideration.

It's great to hear other points of view.

I think the internet in general has changed a lot of my opinions.. I mean I've gone from conservative to anarchist.. lost faith in the anarchist movement and drifted to the centre and realized that people are all a bunch of egostistical selfish cunts unable to compromise for they're own benefit.. I never had faith in humanity so really it just cemented that..

oh and I did read a great arguement about why the monarchy is such a great thing..

I've conceded on a couple of minor points, but my world view has not only stayed the same, my convictions have become all the more solid. I've found like minds and a lot of ammo for my own beliefs.

Every debate I've been in or read, I have listened to both points of view and considered everything being said. However, there have not been any arguments that were so powerful I completely altered what I believed, or even slightly changed for that matter.

It seems people get in really good debates but there is always some monkey who posts some odd response and kills the momentum.

It seems people get in really good debates but there is always some Monkey who posts some odd response and kills the momentum.
May I ask why "Monkey" is a proper noun in your post?

I want to see that Bible.

St. Unicorn 1:1

May I ask why "Monkey" is a proper noun in your post?

Talking about Monkeypimp, perhaps? ;)

May I ask why "Monkey" is a proper noun in your post?

Because I wanted some person named Mariehamn to correct me. :cool:

Because I wanted some person named Mariehamn to correct me. :cool:
I'll assume that means typo. Can never be too sure about these things.

*thinks and realizes I've grown into somewhat of a grammar-Nazi :eek: *

I'll assume that means typo. Can never be too sure about these things.

*thinks and realizes I've grown into somewhat of a grammar-Nazi :eek: *

Welcome to the dark side.

I'll assume that means typo. Can never be too sure about these things.

*thinks and realizes I've grown into somewhat of a grammar-Nazi :eek: *

That's exactly what that means.

And somebody needs to be the grammar Nazi.

And how does that make you a saviour?

Somehow, I am missing out on the whole "saving" thing.
I am saving everyone from wasting their time......

Some do, depending on how well researched and well argued they are. Some do the exact opposite; they reaffirm my core beliefs.

All of my concessions have been acknowledgment of the corn.

I might be convinced more often if so many of the posts weren't completely moronic. Honestly, people, go out and learn something about logic. And about maturity. And respect.

<snip> It was with the direction of the internet that I leaned that Evangelical Christianity is bogus and I thankfully lost my faith and gained myself. There are a lot of intelligent people that debate here at NS. The are many religious loons who are the way I used to be. I think the discussions here have helped my rifine my world view to be in an even greater scale of accuracy as to what the world really is.
It's amazing how many people have been unconverted here. I have never seen another place where people question their own beliefs and ideals so thoroughly.
As to the question, I've probably changed my mind on minor points, but lately it seems that I keep stumbling on the flamewars and generally flawed topics.

I didn't present any views for you to be averted from. So actually I am not what you are talking about at all. I dislike people who judge large groups through internet forums and make comments about other people's figures being made up (80%) and then don't show the studies from which they pulled their number (52%) out of pure laziness and arrogance.

The arguments you use to justify your statements are convoluted and poorly stated. Take a class on rhetoric, seriously.



This last paragraph here, it doesn't make sense. I still can't tell if you are saying there are a lot of Christians or a lot of people who wish to drag down Christians.

In conclusion you make very, very poor arguments. Now, this doesn't mean I disagree with your point or agree with it. What it means is you cannot present a valid or lucid argument. You also tend to generalize over large groups citing your own personal experience to back up your statements. Couple this with your use of figures that are missing their links of origin (used while actually calling someone else out on the same practice) and you've got a really, really horrible debator. Since this is a forum based largely on debate I reiterate, "I feel bad for the air he breathes" (in reference to you sir).

PS: It just dawned on me that the point you are trying to make is that stupid people with bad arguments and views are what affect your personal views the most...think that one over for awhile.

Actually yes you are a prime example of the type of person to which I refer. You interjected yourself into an exchange that I had with another individual and instead of presenting a counter argument, instead you decide to impress yourself with a one line personal attack. Then you have the nerve to contiune with your personal attacks while claiming that I am a poor debator, while never once ever even attempting to do so youself. Maybe if you had read the entire exchange of ideas you would have been able to comprehend what you were reading instead you make a complete fool of yourself by trolling and flaming. To sum things up, you are a complete and total idiot that has one useful purpose, and it serves only those with which you disargee. You prove my point beyond anything I could possible hope. I must wonder if that was your intention in the first place.

While I freely admit, I would like very much to articulate my thoughts more clearly and a class would be a great thing, what you need is a good doctor with a strong perscription. Classes cannot help what you have.

P.S. Have you ever found yourself in a group of friends when someone jokingly said..."Don't say anything" or "Please don't defend us?" I'll bet you have.

Every now and then, but these arguments usually have little or nothing to do with politics. :p

All right, seeing as how many religious/political/moral debates there are on NS I thought it would be interesting to see how many of them have actually done any good.

So vote away.
Yes, it happens sometimes. I went from pro-life to pro-choice based mostly on the good arguments of NS'ers. I also went from anti-Iraq war to pro-Iraq war from reading these forums.

The "minor points" that are changed are akin to the choice of shirt color best
suited for a summer picnic are the only ones changed.

No one seriously changes here.

But that's fine. That's not the purpose of this chaotic nonsense we call NS
General, certainly.

A better question might be what the purpose of this place actually is, on the whole.


-Iakeo

Athiests- A group I once believed to be one that only wanted to live and let live, have become probably the most sanctimonious, arrogant and inmature bunch of little bigots of any group I have ever seen. I used to believe that you had the same rights that anyone else does, but your relentless, vile attacks and complete disregard for the rights of others leaves me believing that whatever misfortune comes of your behaivor toward others...you have only yourselves to blame. I see you in the same light now as I do the KKK.
This just sounds vitriolic. I am an atheist who never attacks religious people, let alone stomps all over their rights. Want to reconsider your opinion?

I think that your opinions of the other two groups have been more influenced by trolls than by serious posters. I'll let the gays and the Canadians answer for themselves.

A seemingly harmless yet never the less dishonest, distortion of the truth. However, if we were to get a real group of 80% of the worlds population, the lions share of them would give anything to come to this land you claim they hate.
Sounds like you just made up a "fact".

Actually yes you are a prime example of the type of person to which I refer. You interjected yourself into an exchange that I had with another individual and instead of presenting a counter argument, instead you decide to impress yourself with a one line personal attack.

*defensiveness*
Why don't you answer his arguments instead of flaming him? Shows what a good debator you are.

Do you or do you not fail to back up your statistics while criticising others for doing the same?

Do you or do you not generalise about entire groups based on your own personal experience with individuals?

You've done both in this very thread.

I can feel myself sliding further toward Center the longer i stay here.
I used to be an Extremist Lefty.
Now im a Far-Lefty.

GRrr, still hate religion tho.

I am a far Right-wing Authoritarian Active Nihilist who wants to abolish and destory the three main religons. And all the arguments I have heard here against my ideology have been extremely weak and ultimately repetitive fluff. However just because I am far Right-wing does not mean I support the Republicans, In fact I hate them more then the liberals do. And to that extent I have heard some very good arguements that have proved to me that George W. Bush and his religious cronies are complete morons and hypocrites.

I'm too stubborn to change my mind, but I usually consider their arguments. However, whenever someone uses the word "noob" followed by several exclamation marks/words like "eleventyone", I tend to disregard them quicker than a duck can sneeze.

No, although I fairly consider them all.

Yes. I have grown since coming to this board.


I've grown a belly because, since coming onto this board, I eat more junk and exercise less. :(

Talking of which, I am off the gym. Well, maybe in a minute :p

Naw. I'd even say that debates are quite useless in general ( though very entertaining ).

Human beings are not rational.
We pick arguments that suite our 'inner convictions'.
Since arguments are made from other folks 'inner convictions', the odds of such arguments swaying a body are close to nill.
Unless the recipient of the message has similar 'inner convictions' there is little practical point to arguments.

Furthermore, we live in an age of semantic indexing, linguistic programming, and framing.
These techniques don't merely require the correct wording, they also need the correct techniques and methods, which don't come across too well on a forum.
Having the correct colour for your background is simply more important than what you actually say!

I remember a series of experiments, quite a while ago, in which 2 opposing politicians simply swapped arguments, and delivered eachother's speeches.
It had no effect whatsoever on the listeners, they supported and cheered their proponents, even though the arguments were quite contrary to their inner convictions.
The 'afterwards' poll showed no change in anybody's outlook whatsoever.

People listen in the real, full-audio world to HOW you say things, not to what you actually say.

The packaging of a message is important - the actual contents matter very little.


Very, very true.

That said, I still like taking part in these debates. They're fun :D

Athiests- A group I once believed to be one that only wanted to live and let live, have become probably the most sanctimonious, arrogant and inmature bunch of little bigots of any group I have ever seen. I used to believe that you had the same rights that anyone else does, but your relentless, vile attacks and complete disregard for the rights of others leaves me believing that whatever misfortune comes of your behaivor toward others...you have only yourselves to blame. I see you in the same light now as I do the KKK.

We love you too honey. :fluffle:

The more I read here and on other political forums, the further left I slide. Before getting involved in actual political discussion, I considered myself a fairly moderate social liberal with slightly leftist economic leanings, but now... you could call me a communist and I'd probably take it as a compliment. :eek: Scary!

While I was probably too far gone with regards to religion before I got here to be converted or unconverted, the more I hear of atheists' theological arguments, the more I feel I made an excellent choice in disassociating myself from that philosophy. The same goes for hardcore Christianity, I had a strong distaste for it before, but it becomes more and more unappealing the more I read here. I have, however, developed maybe just a bit of admiration for the more reasonable Christians and Muslims (this means you, Smunkee and Keruvalia) that I didn't have before coming here.

Aside from those two "major" things, there have been a few minor things that have changed slightly and bits and pieces drastically. For example, I used to be fairly nonchalant when it came to gun laws and didn't really have a problem with people owning guns, but after seeing the aguments from those who favour less gun control, I am now strongly in favour of very strict gun controls across the board.

So.. mostly NS has only confirmed and strengthened my core principles and beliefs, but there have been a few peripheral things that have changed.