NationStates Jolt Archive

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.

Same sentiments here essentially.

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.

How interesting. I disagree.

Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible.

Really? What do I ignore?

Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.

No, I'm not a big fan of brain smashing.

The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.

Dinosaurs preclude the existence of a divine being? How interesting. Do tell us more.

B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.

There is evidence throughout all of human history that religion of some sort was present. And pretty much every religion (sans deism and a few others) posits active gods - active right now even. Obviously, our outlook on the divine has changed. If the divine exists, and I believe it does, there is no reason for us to think that we would fully understand it, much less that those before us did.

C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.

And this has what to do with religion in general?

D: the fact there is evil around us.

I haven't seen many religions that would deny this.

E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Soddom and Gommorah could be a metaphor. Not all religions believe in their existence or destruction. It could be that God does not wish to do that sort of thing. And then there is also the fact that, in the story, S&G are destroyed because pretty much everyone in them is immoral (the moral ones are evacuated) - a single person (ie. GW Bush) is not the target.

Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.


Makes me think you aren't actually that well versed in religious teachings (esp. Christian, the only one I'm prepared to hint at knowing anything about). Doubtless there are some that would want to do that, but there are wackos in every group.

Personally, I don't really care unless it gets out of hand. We should be free to believe whatever the hell we want to.

Religion just annoys me because it is often used to justified stupidity, discrimination and moving society back into the dark ages.

Not as angry as raisin bread makes me.

Religion just annoys me because it is often used to justified stupidity, discrimination and moving society back into the dark ages.

I can use beauty as a justification to drink myself blind. Does that mean that beauty is annoying or bad?

A: Dinosaurs.

Huh? What do dinosaurs have to do with religion making you angry?

Religion doesn't make me angry because I don't let it. I ignore it. Try it sometime. ie Why get annoyed for nothing? Annoyed at stupid people? Good luck getting on in this world then!

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.


Heh, an interesting observation. Sadly, its really not applicable to all religions. Not a single thing you mentioned really poses a problem for the vast majority of Buddhist sects (or Hindu sects). Really, issues like the existance of evil isn't much of a problem for anyone outside of people who belive in a single, omnipotent god. Questions of literal interpretation (like evolution or Soddom and Gammorah) are problems only for fundamentalists and others who believe in a literal interpretation of holy books.

So here I am, something of a religious type (in a way), questioning your points. Allow me to ask you a question, how do any of your five points apply to someone who is not a member of a Judaic religion? How do they apply to anyone who is not a member of a monotheistic religion? How about someone who ascribes to a faith which does not have a literal creation myth?

As for number five, there are faiths that would tell you his rewards or punishments will come after his death. There are also religions (such as mine) that do not have an active eschatolog which would argue that if you are so distressed by the actions of an individual that you would expect a diety to smite them perhaps you should do something about it yourself. Not all faiths expect their adherants to sit passively by and wait for someone else to save them.

Not as angry as raisin bread makes me.
Dude, don't get me started on raisins. They look kinda like dehydrated small mammal turds and they have the texture of some kind of insect. Who decided that such a thing counts as a food ingredient?

How interesting. I disagree.



Really? What do I ignore?



No, I'm not a big fan of brain smashing.



Dinosaurs preclude the existence of a divine being? How interesting. Do tell us more.



There is evidence throughout all of human history that religion of some sort was present. And pretty much every religion (sans deism and a few others) posits active gods - active right now even. Obviously, our outlook on the divine has changed. If the divine exists, and I believe it does, there is no reason for us to think that we would fully understand it, much less that those before us did.



And this has what to do with religion in general?



I haven't seen many religions that would deny this.



I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Soddom and Gommorah could be a metaphor. Not all religions believe in their existence or destruction. It could be that God does not wish to do that sort of thing. And then there is also the fact that, in the story, S&G are destroyed because pretty much everyone in them is immoral (the moral ones are evacuated) - a single person (ie. GW Bush) is not the target.

(sighs) You ignore the facts.
I bet u are secretely a fan of it.
In all religious texts god created Man first, but dinosaurs predate man, guttin.
That one can be good i suppose if you are prepared to say "all religions are One religion"
Creationist christians are silly if they dont beleive in evolution

OOok Paradox time
God is All-Knowing therefore he knows how to destroy evil.
God is All-Powerful therefore he can destroy evil.
God is 100% Good therefore he wants to destroy evil now.
There is evil, therefore there is no god.

What i mean is a Righteous Fire'n'brimestone god cant exist cos Hitler was around dude. and G.W.Bush is around nOW

Sure! Believe in all your divinities and gods... I don't care, 'cause I know what you are... You are WEAK! We are MAN, we shackled this world, and we don't need any celestial being to guide us! We can create anything we want! We are all knowing, all powerful... We are ALL!

Does religion make you angry too?
No. It rather amuses me.

It's ignorant, condescending religious people who try to convert me who annoy me. But so do ignorant, condescending atheists who try to convert everyone.
Actually, everyone who says they wants to "smash someone's brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible" is rather annoying.

Well, there's Christians and there's Christians. And the same goes for all other religion.

There are religious people who simply hide behind whatever book they consider holy and are simply too scared to open their eyes to the complexity of life/existance in every form. If it's not in the book, it's not true. They tend to go by the letter, however misplaced that letter may be in a certain context.
And then there are people who read the book, agree with certain passages, spend a lot of thought on the others and make an effort to combine what they read with their own experiences and the reality they see around them. They take the time to filter out the message and go by that, regarding the literal presentation as a metaphor.

You may guess who I can live with and who I'd rather keep as far away as possible.

C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.


not everything can be explained scientifically in this world. I'm not saying that'll always be the case, i'm just saying that's the case at the moment. By the way, I'm not religious at all, but just studying to become a biologist and thought i'd throw in this little fact.

Does religion make you angry too?

Nah.

(sighs) You ignore the facts.

What facts am I ignoring? Do you have solid proof that there is no God?

I bet u are secretely a fan of it.

'Fraid not. Brains are mushy.

In all religious texts god created Man first, but dinosaurs predate man, guttin.

Incorrect. Hell, incorrect even in Genesis. The first creation story has humanity being created last, as the pinnacle of creation. The Greek creation myths place the creation of human beings last. In fact, most creation myths place it last. Methinks you need to study up a bit.

That one can be good i suppose if you are prepared to say "all religions are One religion"

I wouldn't say that all religions are one religion, but I have no problem with the suggestion that all religions actually worship one deity or pantheon of deities through their own view of the divine.

Creationist christians are silly if they dont beleive in evolution

Evolution isn't really something you should "believe in" per se. It is something that should be examined like any other scientific theory. And it is a good one, backed by all available evidence.

OOok Paradox time
God is All-Knowing therefore he knows how to destroy evil.
God is All-Powerful therefore he can destroy evil.
God is 100% Good therefore he wants to destroy evil now.
There is evil, therefore there is no god.

You cannot apply your own reasoning to something else. If evil is doing something that God does not wish, free will cannot exist without evil.

What i mean is a Righteous Fire'n'brimestone god cant exist cos Hitler was around dude. and G.W.Bush is around nOW

So? My high school teacher once punished me for chewing gum. She sent me to the principal's office. But my friend didn't get punished for chewing gum. She just told him to spit it out. Obviously, my teacher doesn't exist.

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.

I agree with that, but not all religion is that way. Most religions are highly adaptable to modern times; I suggest you do some research on Jainism in particular.

is this supposed to be flamebait?

Not as angry as raisin bread makes me.

Damn right. It's about time someone had the moral courage to say so, too.

"Does religion make you angry too?"

"Religion" does, but spirituality doesn't.

"Does religion make you angry too?"

"Religion" does, but spirituality doesn't.

Bullseye!

Not as angry as raisin bread makes me.
Or frakking FRUITCAKES! God, I hate fruitcakes! :headbang:

http://static.flickr.com/32/51114204_cd425674dc_m.jpg

Obviously, my teacher doesn't exist.

Metaphors are the lowest form of debating.

"Does religion make you angry too?"

"Religion" does, but spirituality doesn't.


It is the opposite way for me.

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying. Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible.

I think the bigger question is, why do let their beliefs bother you so much?

I spend my time worrying about bigger things...like why do men have to put the toilet seat down for women? Why can't women put it up for men? That REALLY bothers me!

http://static.flickr.com/32/51114204_cd425674dc_m.jpg

Why do people accuse me of trolling. :p i dont. I simply provide my opinion and watch people go "ARGGHHH" and burst a vein.

I spend my time worrying about bigger things...like why do men have to put the toilet seat down for women? Why can't women put it up for men? That REALLY bothers me!

It's a conspiracy

Why do people accuse me of trolling. :p i dont. I simply provide my opinion and watch people go "ARGGHHH" and burst a vein.

That's textbook. Well done, sir. Well done indeed.

I can use beauty as a justification to drink myself blind. Does that mean that beauty is annoying or bad?
No, it means you're an idiot. :p

No, it means you're an idiot. :p
"No, I think you're a fuckin' genius because you can't make a lamp."

Ten points if you can name the movie! :D

"No, I think you're a fuckin' genius because you can't make a lamp."

Ten points if you can name the movie! :D
Breakfast Club

Why do people accuse me of trolling. i dont. I simply provide my opinion and watch people go "ARGGHHH" and burst a vein.
Okay, you want me to point out where you troll, ya n00b?

Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible.
Threatening physical harm constitutes trolling, last I checked
Now to destroy the rest of your argument

A: Dinosaurs.
Yea, what about them?

B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. God for all we know

C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
Am I the last scientific mind that remembers evolution is only a THEORY? And as a scientific theory it should be questioned! How do you think science made any progress?

D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.
I thought religion was supposed to redress evil. Oh, and it's so terrible Bush hasn't been hit with a huge rock while people like Kim Jong-Il and Osama Bin Laden roam freeley :rolleyes:

Breakfast Club

You be old...:p

I know, the way people take obvious myths so seriously is rather annoying. I mean, I hate to feed the troll, but other than the trolling aspect, I more or less agree.

Breakfast Club
And we have a winner! [ chalks you up for ten points and gives you a cookie! ] :D

You be old...:p
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7373/smileytroutsmack22fp.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I know, the way people take obvious myths so seriously is rather annoying. I mean, I hate to feed the troll, but other than the trolling aspect, I more or less agree.

I may troll slightly but i RabbleRouse quite well, if thats trolling then i dont care.
I add a little bit of Fire and Brimstone to my arguements, if you dont like it and you think "Well that positively barbaric" then dont say so, and use common sense so that if u dont say so, the post will be less likely to be noticed. Duuuh. So ignore me, or shut up kindly :)

OOok Paradox time
God is All-Knowing therefore he knows how to destroy evil.
God is All-Powerful therefore he can destroy evil.
God is 100% Good therefore he wants to destroy evil now.
There is evil, therefore there is no god.

What i mean is a Righteous Fire'n'brimestone god cant exist cos Hitler was around dude. and G.W.Bush is around nOW

Again, thats really only a problem for Monotheists.

You be old...:p
What? Having seen breakfast club doesn't make you old. Hell, they still show it on basic cable once in a while.

Metaphors are the lowest form of debating.

Really? I would argue that ignoring direct questions and statements that undermine your argument while resorting to simple attacks against those who merely asserted disagreement is.

What? Having seen breakfast club doesn't make you old. Hell, they still show it on basic cable once in a while.

Shut up grandad:p

Its never been on in the UK for at least a decade, anyway, shouldn't you be playing bingo....

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.

Really...ok, let's see why...

Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.

Wait...you're muddling up religion and organized religion there. Which is it?

The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.
Odd, you know...because the Vatican has actually come out and derided the Intelligent Design movement, teaches Evolution in Catholic schools, and warns about evil and temptation around us ("Lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil" as Jesus told us to pray).

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.
Sodom and Gomorrah is a fable, or metaphor, as is most of the Torah/Bible. The key isn't that the cities were destroyed, but why. It's a message telling you this is what is considered bad, and to heed a warning to act in a way that Judaism/Christianity considers correct.

Whether or not God truly intervened is a discussion that has been going on, especially in Talmudic circles, for over two-thousand years. It's hard to declare that this happened a fact when there has never been historical or archealogical evidence of such cities.

What? Having seen breakfast club doesn't make you old. Hell, they still show it on basic cable once in a while.
They do? :p then again, it's been a while since I watched anything other than Jeopardy, Mercer Report, Air Farce....

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.

As to points A and C, no less a religious authority than the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano (January 17, 2006 edition) has published an article that characterized Darwin's theory of evolution as “the interpretative key of the history of life on Earth”, and declared that Intelligent Design "doesn't belong to science and the pretext that it be taught as a scientific theory alongside Darwin's explanation is unjustified.” Denial of "dinosaurs" and "evolution" is definitely a minority view within Christianity as a whole.

As to point E, I've rarely seen a sillier analogy. But if you seriously wonder, the reason "a big rock has yet to land on G.W. Bush" is because he is RIGHT.

Your dissatisfaction is clearly with Christianity, rather than with religion as a whole, an attitude typical of the modern extreme left. I suggest that the basis of your dissatisfaction is the fact that Christianity endorses certain forms of behavior and condemns certain other forms of behavior, and that your behaviors of choice fall within the second category. You resent being told that you're doing wrong, so you lash out at those making the judgment.

And we have a winner! [ chalks you up for ten points and gives you a cookie! ] :D
Thanks!

OK.


Religion itself doesn't make me angry. It is people who take it too literally.

I mean when it says "God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th", does it really mean that? Or is it an analogy. The "6 days" could mean 6 Million years or so. Who knows, right?

As to points A and C, no less a religious authority than the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano (January 17, 2006 edition) has published an article that characterized Darwin's theory of evolution as “the interpretative key of the history of life on Earth”, and declared that Intelligent Design "doesn't belong to science and the pretext that it be taught as a scientific theory alongside Darwin's explanation is unjustified.” Denial of "dinosaurs" and "evolution" is definitely a minority view within Christianity as a whole.

As to point E, I've rarely seen a sillier analogy. But if you seriously wonder, the reason "a big rock has yet to land on G.W. Bush" is because he is RIGHT.

Your dissatisfaction is clearly with Christianity, rather than with religion as a whole, an attitude typical of the modern extreme left. I suggest that the basis of your dissatisfaction is the fact that Christianity endorses certain forms of behavior and condemns certain other forms of behavior, and that your behaviors of choice fall within the second category. You resent being told that you're doing wrong, so you lash out at those making the judgment.

Lies!!! I was a Center-Right Anti-Theist till i was 14. Then i became Extreme-left Anti-Theist so that aint right.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with the original poster. And it's so irrational! Especially when they base decisions on morality on religion without any logical basis. It makes my eye twitch. <.<

Religion itself doesn't make me angry. It is people who take it too literally.

I mean when it says "God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th", does it really mean that? Or is it an analogy. The "6 days" could mean 6 Million years or so. Who knows, right?

The Torah/Bible is meant to be interpreted. It's written in metaphors and allegories, meant to convey the ideas of what is wrong and right in the view of the writer. A literal reading, even of Genesis, would make people's head spin since in there, God apparently creates the world twice, and in two different ways.

However, the true meaning of the Creation story is to say that we did not pop from nothing, we were created by a process started by God. It's why I've always said that studying evolution of species as well as the evolution of the Universe as a whole will bring us closer to understanding the mind of God.

I mean...even He must abide by the rules He created.

The Torah/Bible is meant to be interpreted. It's written in metaphors and allegories, meant to convey the ideas of what is wrong and right in the view of the writer. A literal reading, even of Genesis, would make people's head spin since in there, God apparently creates the world twice, and in two different ways.

However, the true meaning of the Creation story is to say that we did not pop from nothing, we were created by a process started by God. It's why I've always said that studying evolution of species as well as the evolution of the Universe as a whole will bring us closer to understanding the mind of God.

I mean...even He must abide by the rules He created.

Isnt it interesting that Religious types go "AHHHhh but we didnt MEAN IT"
and when communists go "AHHhhh but they werent Communists!"
People shoot them.
Equality all round i say.:sniper:

Isnt it interesting that Religious types go "AHHHhh but we didnt MEAN IT"
and when communists go "AHHhhh but they werent Communists!"
People shoot them.
Equality all round i say.:sniper:

Pardon me...but what the hell are you talking about?

Your post makes about as much sense as Brittany Spears winning an Oscar.

Pardon me...but what the hell are you talking about?

Your post makes about as much sense as Brittany Spears winning an Oscar.
Im talking about how for 1700 years Christians were like "THE BIBLE IS TRUE DAMMIT!" and now when they realise they are losing support "Ooooh but we didnt MEAN it, it was all a joke with the crusades and such. Haha!"
Whereas Communists during the SOviet Union were like "Fu*kai! Great!"
But afterwards are like "Oh, the soviet union was State-Capitalist not communist...honest."
and when commies do that people go "...:sniper: " so why not do that to christians?

Im talking about how for 1700 years Christians were like "THE BIBLE IS TRUE DAMMIT!" and now when they realise they are losing support "Ooooh but we didnt MEAN it, it was all a joke with the crusades and such. Haha!"
Whereas Communists during the SOviet Union were like "Fu*kai! Great!"
But afterwards are like "Oh, the soviet union was State-Capitalist not communist...honest."
and when commies do that people go "...:sniper: " so why not do that to christians?

you killed all validity to your argument with the smileys.

i thought you had a point. it is obvious i was wrong.

organized religion is different than personal religion. not everyone follows everything to the letter.

you killed all validity to your argument with the smileys.

i thought you had a point. it is obvious i was wrong.

organized religion is different than personal religion. not everyone follows everything to the letter.

I use smileys as a joke u know.

I use smileys as a joke u know.

added on, a joke. a replacement, not.
then again. . . .

*resists urge to put all violent smileys on post*

. . . . .

your points are all easily defeated. why not take the approach of surrounding a good argument with shitty ones? if you've done that, which one is your correct argument?

added on, a joke. a replacement, not.
then again. . . .

*resists urge to put all violent smileys on post*

. . . . .

your points are all easily defeated. why not take the approach of surrounding a good argument with shitty ones? if you've done that, which one is your correct argument?

I use arguements that appeal to different sorts.
I use 1 type to get the Atheist rallied
1 type to upset chrsitians
1 type to tilt agnostics in my favour
ect

I use arguements that appeal to different sorts.
I use 1 type to get the Atheist rallied
1 type to upset chrsitians
1 type to tilt agnostics in my favour
ect
Yea, well you've definitely tilted this agnostic against you!

Religion can be annoying. Cases in point: Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, etc.

Yea, well you've definitely tilted this agnostic against you!

(cries)
:(
Please dont hate me!
Time for the bigguns!
Emo rock!
Discworld is cool!
Johhny cash is great!
Greenday are Cool!

Agreement here. I personally cannot stand religion. It's stupid, arbitrary, illogical, and pointless, and does nothing but impede progress and reason. The people who make sociopolitical arguments based on it, or try to subvert science with it, piss me off even more.

Religion is philosophy for stupid people. - AN RL friend of mine.

personally i believe in divinity, yet i believe in evolution and all those other things
the way i see it,
everything cannot be pure chance,
and if you cannot destroy or create energy, where did it all come from in the first place?
It has now been found that time is not only altered by speed, but by gravity. Things of greater mass will percieve time differentely to those of smaller mass

Who thinks everything can be pure chance?

I believe that there is something out there that guides everthing, but that religion is just another way of seeking it, with all the contradictions in holy book i do not believe that any religion is 'right' but that there is some kind of greater conscious out there (forgive my spelling, im not very good)

if you want an example of a contradiction i can say this about the bible.

apparently incessed is wrong.
If the creation theory is true then adam and eve were the only people,
eve had 3 sons from adam
so where did everyone else come from?
incessed!
noahs ark
god sank everyone but noah and his family, how did the human race grow again?
Incessed.

To put it simply, there's something out there, im not sure what but everythings not pure chance
oh and religion is so warped and changed over time that no way is any of it 'right'

Religion is only right if you believe that I am God.

Because I am.

Bow to me.

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.

uhh evil is all around us but what about people who are nice?
and back then not many people lived for more then 60 years
evoluition is real but have you ever thought about what started the big bang?i mean matter cant come out of no where science has proved that.
dinosaurs became extinct wheather by God or another force that doesnt mean they never existed. and bush well i dunno mabye something will happen to him in the future who knows

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.

Fair enough by me. It would annoy me if I had anything to do with it on a regular basis. Even the yap at funerals pisses me off though, now that I think of it.....

Original Post
Religion does. Faith doesn't.

My solution to your 5 points? As a Christian Sympathiser,

A: Dinosaurs.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.

Evolution is real. Creation is mythology with useful lessons, even if it's not anything approaching historically true.

B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.

"Gods" are all human inventions. Underlying every single interpretation of God is a universal power. The Buddhists are probably the closest to this one, but Christianity would be close too if it were to ignore societal interpretations and to simply analyse their scripture for themselves.

D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.
Mmkay. If I were to say what I'm about to say in many other contexts, it could be perceived as anti-Christian. Everything written in the bible has a human author with contexts and motivations. The Gospels are personal accounts, and that seems okay if we treat them like that. The letters afterwards are correspondance of the human response to the information in the Gospels. The Books of the Old Testament are Historical Context; what people in Jesus's time would have believed.

The point is, there is no direct correspondance between the God described in the Old Testament and the God that Jesus represented beyond the cultural background and suppositions of those around him whenever he made his statements.

As a pantheist, I have my own ideas as to what that God really is. I won't bore you with the details. The reason evil exists is that people in their desire for self-satisfaction don't co-operate with those around them. This disrupts the system and causes repercussions of unnecessary harm to those around them. If you want to, you can interpret this by saying that it comes from "going against the will of God", which is entirely true, but some people use this statement in their own idea of the Divine Power, which may not really make sense. God's powerless to stop this, but his reality will inevitably react to that which causes harm to others.

Sodom and Gommorah probably didn't happen in the way the stories tell. Gospel accounts and modern experience indicate God to be an entity that works through humans. I personally don't place any credibility behind the factual valitidy of much of the Old Testament, and I don't think there's anything unchristian about doing that. God works through people; this is the message that is acquired in the New Testament and the one that is the important one. Accepting the OT stories as myth and deriving what truth we can from that is all that is required to do this.

And why not flatten Bush? Firstly, he can't. Secondly, why? Bush is just a victim of a disease of self-righteousness. Even if it's a virulent one, there's not much point taking out the victims; the problem needs to be first tackled at the source.

</rant>

I use arguements that appeal to different sorts.
I use 1 type to get the Atheist rallied
1 type to upset chrsitians
1 type to tilt agnostics in my favour
ect


All the while missing the reality that not all religious people are christians, jews, muslims, or even adherants to western or ancient traditions. Your arguments tend to assume that there are only three groups: athiests, christians, and agnostics. When someone who does not fit into one of those groups responds, you ignore them. You have an interesting way of dealing with cognitive dissonance, but that hardly equates to an effective style of debate.

Agreed. Although I might be convinced that a god started the big bang.

God had to start the big bang science clearly states matter cannot be made out of nothing......

"Does religion make you angry too?"

"Religion" does, but spirituality doesn't.

I make no distinction between the two terms.

Metaphors are the lowest form of debating.

Perhaps, but they tend to do a rather good job of demonstrating how idiotic an argument is.

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.
Perhaps it would make you less angry to learn what a myth is?

No, it means you're an idiot. :p

Exactly my point.

So when people use religion as excuses for idiotic things, why don't people say, "Wow, that person is an idiot," instead of "OMFG! I HATE RELIGION!!!!!"?

Have you ever heard a Christian argue these points? Because he could argue every single one easily.

Now I personally am Agnostic, but I do not think "evolution is quite plainly real" Has anyone ever explained it to you? I mean properly? Not just with phrases like "Survival of the fittest?" Because it is an extremely weak argument in my oppinion, with there being less and less evidence for it by the day.

Exactly my point.

So when people use religion as excuses for idiotic things, why don't people say, "Wow, that person is an idiot," instead of "OMFG! I HATE RELIGION!!!!!"?
Never heard of "Live and let live"? People like you make me ashamed of calling myself atheist.:gundge: Selfrighteouss bastard

Shut up grandad:p
That's right. Just keep right on until you piss me off, then LOOK OUT, young, wet-behind-the-ears dweeb! :p

Never heard of "Live and let live"? People like you make me ashamed of calling myself atheist.:gundge: Selfrighteouss bastard

(Gathers round the Soft-Atheist) Lets gettim! ;p

Yeah, I pretty much agree with the original poster. And it's so irrational! Especially when they base decisions on morality on religion without any logical basis. It makes my eye twitch. <.<

Yes, because every religious person does this.....


Im talking about how for 1700 years Christians were like "THE BIBLE IS TRUE DAMMIT!" and now when they realise they are losing support "Ooooh but we didnt MEAN it, it was all a joke with the crusades and such. Haha!"

First of all, Christians still say the Bible is true, just not literally true, and a study of the religion would demonstrate that this a viewpoint that has been around as long as anyone has been writing about Christianity. The Church (with a capital "C") tried to stamp out the idea that it might not be literally true, but have basically been forced to admit it over time. The Church, however, is not all Christians, and never has been.

As for the Crusades, those were, once again, conflicts that did not involve all members of any one religion. Those who had appointed themselves leaders were involved, and led the peons to slaughter. Strangely enough, that's pretty much what has happened in secular situations throughout history as well....

Agreement here. I personally cannot stand religion. It's stupid, arbitrary, illogical, and pointless, and does nothing but impede progress and reason.

How so?

The people who make sociopolitical arguments based on it, or try to subvert science with it, piss me off even more.

Sociopolitical arguments are pretty much always subjective. Religion is simply one subjective reasoning that may be used.

[quot4e]Religion is philosophy for stupid people. - AN RL friend of mine.[/quote]

That's funny, considering that nearly all of the major philosophers throughout history have been religious.

Does religion make me angry?

Nope, what would I do with my life if I couldn't waste it debating theology on NS.:)

(Gathers round the Soft-Atheist) Lets gettim! ;p

Has anyone ever told you that your brand of athiesm looks astonishingly like Pat Robertson's brand of Christianity? Strident, angry, hateful, reflexively hostile, and unaccepting of other viewpoints.

It kind of reminds me of another famous athiest, Sigmund Freud. Now, I'm not saying you fantasize about your mother, fear that your father wants to castrate you, have latent homosexual tendancies, or abuse cocaine. I am saying that your irreligion has a dogma of it's own, one that pushes others away and is every bit as illogical and rigid as the faiths you attack.

Never heard of "Live and let live"? People like you make me ashamed of calling myself atheist.:gundge: Selfrighteouss bastard
Religious people make you ashamed to call yourself an athiest?

Religious people make you ashamed to call yourself an athiest?
Whoops wrong quote.:headbang: wanted to quote the fundamentalist atheist

Emo rock!
Greenday are Cool!
You like emo rock and Greenday? You're even more of a bleeding-heart liberal than I thought you were to begin with!!

You like emo rock and Greenday? You're even more of a bleeding-heart liberal than I thought you were to begin with!!

...riiiiiight. its a good thing people like you are a dying breed.

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.

so many issues, so little time

a)Dinosaurs and people are not mutually exclusive in the Bible

b)God has always been

c)Evolution is fine, once you get past the whole creation thing... what made the atoms, and what made them move?

d)Yes, there is. And if not for God, we'd succumb to it all.. the.. time. we'd have no hope.

e)Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed on account of their sinfulness. A better question would be, "Why hasn't a 'big rock' yet landed on Bill Clinton?" (if S & G is your example)

(some of this is tongue-in-cheek, of course)

Riiiiiiight.
Well
Evil cannot exist because.

GOD IS PERFECT.
Yes?
Then God cannot create ANYTHING with ANY evil in it, because that would be evil in itself.
So... No!

Have you ever heard a Christian argue these points? Because he could argue every single one easily.

Now I personally am Agnostic, but I do not think "evolution is quite plainly real" Has anyone ever explained it to you? I mean properly? Not just with phrases like "Survival of the fittest?" Because it is an extremely weak argument in my oppinion, with there being less and less evidence for it by the day.

LOL!

Wow, you claim to have studied, but claim there is "less and less evidence for it by the day"? That doesn't even make sense! Further study can only gather more evidence for a theory or debunk it. There is no dissappearing evidence - no way to suddenly or even gradually have less evidence.

Meanwhile, as a researcher in the biological sciences (and a Christian), I can safely laugh at your "weak argument" comment. There is as much or more evidence for evolutionary theory than just about any other theory in the biological sciences. If it is a "weak argument", then pretty much all of our understanding of biology is "weak", and all of the breakthroughs we have made were just flukes.

Religion used to make me angry, but now it just makes me despair.

e)Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed on account of their sinfulness. A better question would be, "Why hasn't a 'big rock' yet landed on Bill Clinton?" (if S & G is your example)
Bill Clinton did a hell of a lot more good than Bush did. A man's personal sins mean squat when his actions speak for themselves.

Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed on account of their sinfulness.
Nothing that could have happened in those two cities could be worse than what happened in more recent history, with no one and nothing being punished.

If god once did stuff, she stopped it a long time ago, leaving us with no indication of her existence at all.

Riiiiiiight.
Well
Evil cannot exist because.

GOD IS PERFECT.
Yes?
Then God cannot create ANYTHING with ANY evil in it, because that would be evil in itself.
So... No!
Duh. God isn't perfect.

What's your point?

Riiiiiiight.
Well
Evil cannot exist because.

GOD IS PERFECT.
Yes?
Then God cannot create ANYTHING with ANY evil in it, because that would be evil in itself.
So... No!

Once again, evil is an action of turning away from good, if we could not turn away from good, then we would have no free will. We would simply be mindless automotons doing what we are supposed to do.

And evil is not a property of a thing. It is a property of an action, a thought, or an intention. God did not have to "create evil" for it to exist. God simply had to allow free will.

Bill Clinton did a hell of a lot more good than Bush did. A man's personal sins mean squat when his actions speak for themselves.

he did?

Clinton was the benefactor of a booming tech industry... which made the 90s economy pretty strong.

It's not President Bush's fault that the Dow had already begun to fall in the spring and summer of 2000, as people began to realize that many of those tech stocks were overvalued.

9/11 wasn't his fault

He's lowered our taxes below what they were under Clinton... (balancing the budget is another thing entirely)

He's continued to take the fight to terrorists, and in so doing has toppled a dictator (well, along with the Brits and others) and brought an oppressed country its first free vote in 50ish years.

-------

as for a man's personal sins meaning squat... well they might not mean much to you, but if the bible is at all right, they'll mean something when he meets his maker.

as for a man's personal sins meaning squat... well they might not mean much to you, but if the bible is at all right, they'll mean something when he meets his maker.
Nah, he can just repent on his deathbed, and he'll be fine.
That's the neat thing about modern evangelical Christianity.
It's really not a religion in the sense that you actually have to follow any rules at all - it's more of a tool to get others to live according to your personal preferences, and to add another dimension to the right's persecution complex.

Now Greek Orthodox Christianity - that is a religion. And it's the original Christianity too...if you assume that the Bible is god's word, then the earlier, the better. If I had to choose a denomination, I think that one would be the one.

A man's personal sins mean squat when his actions speak for themselves.

His "personal sins" = his actions just as much as everything else he did.

That's the neat thing about modern evangelical Christianity. It's really not a religion in the sense that you actually have to follow any rules at all

As a Christian, I agree with that part (though not the rest of your post).
Christianity is not about rules, regulations, rituals, traditions, ceremonies, religious observance, etc. There are only two 'ceremonies' required by the Bible - communion and baptism. There ARE rules in christianity, but these are secondary to the commandments 'love God' and 'love your neighbour as yourself'.

And Christianity should NOT be about telling other people how to live their lives. The homosexuality issue is one of the problems where Christians are concerned, but it should not be.

The Bible tells ME (a christian) that I should live according to the standards laid down in the Bible. If I (personally) were to engage in homosexual sex, or any sex outside marriage, then I (personally) would be sinning.

BUT I should not, and will not, judge a non-Christian who does those things. They aren't Christians, they aren't bound by the same laws as me. What other people do in their own bedroom is their concern - the Bible tells me 'judge not, lest you too be judged'. What business is it of mine to interfere with how a non-Christian lives their own life?

(to first post)


oh, so you think religion is useless eh? so, if you believe that, why not just murder and rape every person that you see, because the only thing that stops people from doing that is God. where do you think we got the idea of a bill of rights? huh? maybe THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!! with out religion, government would not exist, and all your cushy luxuries would be gone too!


Also, atheists think that a supposedly INFINITE universe was once confined into a FINITE space. not only that, but you think it was the size of a golf ball and that, though NOTHING (according to you) existed before it, it just randomly exploded!!!


and you think we are lunatics?


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

-Snip-
As a Northern Irish citizen, I am somewhat predesposed towards Bill. The guy actually made progress in combatting terrorism on both sides of the divide, while Bush's pro-Republicanism has only encouraged tensions despite his claims to fight back the forces of terror in the world. Furthermore, while I honestly couldn't care less about economic strength, Clinton's social policies were spot on from this man's perspective.

And what the heck is that comment about "the bible being at all right" supposed to mean? The innate message of the Word isn't about fearing for the repercussions of our sinful nature; it's about seeking relationship with divinity. That is the most fundamental truth about the Bible - not "Sins lead to Death". I think your priorities are skewed in a most harmful way, and perhaps it might be time to take another look at what you mean by what you say.

(to first post)


oh, so you think religion is useless eh? so, if you believe that, why not just murder and rape every person that you see, because the only thing that stops people from doing that is God. where do you think we got the idea of a bill of rights? huh? maybe THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!! with out religion, government would not exist, and all your cushy luxuries would be gone too!


Also, atheists think that a supposedly INFINITE universe was once confined into a FINITE space. not only that, but you think it was the size of a golf ball and that, though NOTHING (according to you) existed before it, it just randomly exploded!!!


and you think we are lunatics?


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


Ofcourse :) a random thing happening is much more sensible than
"Well there was this dude, and he like you know ALWAYS existed, shut up he ALWAYS existed, riiiiiight and he goes "Yeeehh i fancy makin the world, but just for shits and giggles i'll make it fucked up so theres pain and all that"



Use terry pratchetts version
In the beginning there was nothing
which exploded.
noone knows why, they blame it on god.
If so, god is a kid with matches
But then wheres gods parents?

oh, so you think religion is useless eh? so, if you believe that, why not just murder and rape every person that you see, because the only thing that stops people from doing that is God.

That's stupid. This is part of the reason he finds religion annoying.

oh, so you think religion is useless eh? so, if you believe that, why not just murder and rape every person that you see, because the only thing that stops people from doing that is God. where do you think we got the idea of a bill of rights? huh? maybe THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!! with out religion, government would not exist, and all your cushy luxuries would be gone too!


Maybe you would rape and murder if you had never heard of the ten commandments, but I have something called "compassion" that stops me.

oh, so you think religion is useless eh? so, if you believe that, why not just murder and rape every person that you see, because the only thing that stops people from doing that is God.
Because it would be an unfriendly thing to do? Because the police might pick me up? Because there is such a thing as "game theory"? Because people can behave ethical without a god?

where do you think we got the idea of a bill of rights? huh?
A bunch of philosophers, many of which hated the church?

with out religion, government would not exist, and all your cushy luxuries would be gone too!
All hail the glorious god-king Hammurabi!

Also, atheists think that a supposedly INFINITE universe was once confined into a FINITE space. not only that, but you think it was the size of a golf ball and that, though NOTHING (according to you) existed before it, it just randomly exploded!!!
Start here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang), and go from there.

oh, so you think religion is useless eh? so, if you believe that, why not just murder and rape every person that you see, because the only thing that stops people from doing that is God.

If God is the only thing keeping you from raping and murdering every person you see, then I think we should lock you up for our own good. You are obviously a sociopath at heart, and therefore dangerous to the rest of us.

where do you think we got the idea of a bill of rights? huh? maybe THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!! with out religion, government would not exist, and all your cushy luxuries would be gone too!

The bill of rights has nothing at all to do with the 10 Commandments and expressly forbids government from interfering and mixing with religion. Tell me, where in the bill of rights does it say anything about coveting? or the Sabbath? or graven idles?

His "personal sins" = his actions just as much as everything else he did.
Fair enough; perhaps I should have explicitly clarified that I meant "Some act against religious instruction" as being a personal sin and "Some act against another human being" as "action".

oh, so you think religion is useless eh? so, if you believe that, why not just murder and rape every person that you see,
Nah, I'm not big on random acts of rape and murder. Firstly, it doesn't seem like much fun, secondly, it's not very nice, and thirdly, I'd be likely to get thrown in jail for that. Seems like a fairly good set of non-religious reasons to me.
because the only thing that stops people from doing that is God.
Wait, I had thought the whole thing was that God was supposed to have given us free will?
where do you think we got the idea of a bill of rights? huh? maybe THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!! with out religion, government would not exist, and all your cushy luxuries would be gone too!
I hate to burst your bubble, but there was government before the bill of rights, and before Christianity or Judaism too.

I didn't read all seven pages but Clinton did do more then Bush has and Bush's "War on Terrorism" is total BS he's just trying to finish what George H.W. Bush did and he did NOT topple a dictator in his "War on Terrorism" he toppled him by attacking Iraq that did ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to us the 9/11 attack was from Al Quida in Afghanistan. And Bush did NOT lower taxes for the majority only the wealthy. As for the religous part of this conversation I'm considered Atheist by a lot of the people I know, either because I believe in a nonomnipotent being who didn't do anything, or I'm a different religion, or the fact that truly I'm not a very religious christian who believes in Buddist ideals. And sorry for any misspelt words.

Heh, an interesting observation. Sadly, its really not applicable to all religions. Not a single thing you mentioned really poses a problem for the vast majority of Buddhist sects (or Hindu sects).
I don't know you, but I already love you.

As a practicing Buddhist and a scientist, I often get asked if I believe in god. In Buddhism, it doesn't realyl matter, but I don't believe in god or any real higher power. I believe in reincarnation and Dhamma and Sanghya and the Buddha, becuase all of these things make sense to me.

To the original statement, I don't think religion is horrible, but its misuse is very bad. I am and evolutionist, I believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, I believe that superstring theory is a good idea, and I believe that wars in the name of any of the five major religions (Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism) is unjustified, becasue all of these religions preach peace (although Islam and Christianity don't really follow it as a group too well...).

Salaam.

Religion doesn't make me angry, but people who want to force their religion on me do. After all, no one can prove that God(s) do or do not exist, nor can we prove that one God is the "true" God. Until we can do that, there is no reason for me to be angry at religion or lack of religion...it's only what people do with it that matters.

All religion is mythology and philosophy.


It's mostly retarded and odd.


Too bad people don't just realize that and stop acting like fools.


(EDIT: Yes, I understand that many religions have very interesting ideas and very good outlooks on life in them, but who cares? You can have those things without religion, so why bother with all the rest of the nonsense just due to good morals?)

Im talking about how for 1700 years Christians were like "THE BIBLE IS TRUE DAMMIT!" and now when they realise they are losing support "Ooooh but we didnt MEAN it, it was all a joke with the crusades and such. Haha!"
Whereas Communists during the SOviet Union were like "Fu*kai! Great!"
But afterwards are like "Oh, the soviet union was State-Capitalist not communist...honest."
and when commies do that people go "...:sniper: " so why not do that to christians?

Personally i don't consider myself "Christian". I'm too open minded to be called that. And i never, in my life time, said that "THE BIBLE IS TRUE DAMMIT!". I've always thought that the Bible was open to interpretation. Although there are some passages in the Bible that i don't agree with but i can't remember the exact ones at this moment.

I'm technically lutheran, but I sure as hell don't act like it. I have no problem speaking blasphemy and other things by which most christians would be astounded. Luckily for lutherans, belief in Jesus = you go to Heaven. Nothing else matters.
Besides, even if I'm wrong, it makes no difference. Christianity is the only religion I'm aware of that has a Hell, so at least this way, no matter what the truth is, I won't be going there. I don't really give a damn about anything else because it doesn't affect me.

Christianity is the only religion I'm aware of that has a Hell, so at least this way, no matter what the truth is, I won't be going there.
Judaism has an equivalent, as does Islam. The idea of punishment if you don't conform is common to all of them.
Paganism has various version of Tartarus and Hades, where people are punished for their sins as well.
Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Du) and Japanese religions have a concept for it as well, although it is apparently a lot more complex.
For other religions (like Hinduism and Buddhism) life is hell, and by acting right you can secure a better place next time 'round, or even get a free ticket outta here for good.

So all of them have some sort of punishment provided. It's the only way you can get people to act like you want them to.

Dictionary.com defines "religion" as "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion." By that definition, Atheism is as much a religion as Christianity.

But as for all the bitching, I think things were summed up quite nicely back on page four:
So when people use religion as excuses for idiotic things, why don't people say, "Wow, that person is an idiot," instead of "OMFG! I HATE RELIGION!!!!!"?

God had to start the big bang science clearly states matter cannot be made out of nothing......

Just a nitpick, in the "time" (I use quotes because before the big bang time and space did not exist) before the Big Bang matter did exist in an extremely dense and hot singularity. So it really didn't come out "nothing."

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.

I'm not sure about B, but you've got the right idea. Religion is ignorant and archaic, in my opinion.

I'm not sure about B, but you've got the right idea. Religion is ignorant and archaic, in my opinion.

Please do point us to the information you have that religious people don't. Then, maybe we won't be ignorant any more.

Please do point us to the information you have that religious people don't. Then, maybe we won't be ignorant any more.


Actually, he was insulting religion, not religious people.


But maybe if you realized that religions are fairytales, you know...

Please do point us to the information you have that religious people don't. Then, maybe we won't be ignorant any more.

I do frequently. I have made various conclusions based upon solid evidence, and share them often. Please see the original post for a few examples.

Actually, he was insulting religion, not religious people.


But maybe if you realized that religions are fairytales, you know...

For future reference: I am female.

Actually, he was insulting religion, not religious people.

Every person's religion is different. In order to insult religion as a whole, it is the religious people themselves that you must insult.

But maybe if you realized that religions are fairytales, you know...

Prove to me that God is a fairy tale. Show me your evidence.

I do frequently. I have made various conclusions based upon solid evidence, and share them often.

What conclusions can you come to about the supernatural using "solid evidence"? It is impossible to get "solid evidence" for the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural.

Edit: Meanwhile, I make conclusions based on solid evidence all the time. It's my job, as a scientist. This doesn't change the fact that science has nothing, and by definition can have nothing, to say about the supernatural.

Please see the original post for a few examples.

The original post is useless, as the complaints have little to nothing to do with religion.

Edit: If you check the first and second pages of the thread, you'll see I've already dealt with all of them.

Every person's religion is different. In order to insult religion as a whole, it is the religious people themselves that you must insult.



Prove to me that God is a fairy tale. Show me your evidence.



What conclusions can you come to about the supernatural using "solid evidence"? It is impossible to get "solid evidence" for the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural.

Edit: Meanwhile, I make conclusions based on solid evidence all the time. It's my job, as a scientist. This doesn't change the fact that science has nothing, and by definition can have nothing, to say about the supernatural.



The original post is useless, as the complaints have little to nothing to do with religion.

Edit: If you check the first and second pages of the thread, you'll see I've already dealt with all of them.

Well, there's evolution. And the fact that God doesn't speak to us. If he spoke to people many years ago, why doesn't he anymore? And why would he even make people? And why would he make AIDS? Why wouldn't he smite all those who do "evil." If he's almighty, why would there be a satan? If all intelligent lifeforms require a creator, who created God...etc.
There are far more questions than there will ever be answers.

Honestly people, it's impossible to prove truth or falsehood in any religion. If people don't try and shove what they believe down your throat, why does it matter?

And frankly, if you're against religion and attacking religion, you're really no better than religious nuts who say that everyone who doesn't think like them is damned.

For future reference: I am female.

Hehe, sorry about that




Every person's religion is different. In order to insult religion as a whole, it is the religious people themselves that you must insult.

That's what she said, don't counter-point me on it.

Prove to me that God is a fairy tale. Show me your evidence.

You actually need to argue with me to see that religions are just a crock-pot of lunacy? That's sad. Take any, ANY religion, read, out loud, any of the myths from any religion, and really, really think about them. They're no better than storybooks for children, except they sometimes have adult themes.

I hold the almighty FSM in much higher regard than any religious deity. At least his followers have a sense of humor, nay, at least his followers have sense.

No wonder everyone's ignoring my posts, I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.

Every person's religion is different. In order to insult religion as a whole, it is the religious people themselves that you must insult.


Religion is like a drug. But people take drugs for many different reasons.

No wonder everyone's ignoring my posts, I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.

I haven't insulted the intelligence of others, only their sense.


I don't doubt the intelligence of anyone who follows blatant weightloss scams or absolutely insane cults, I just think that they're acting crazy, you know what I mean?


I don't mean to insult anyone, I just believe that the world would definetely run a lot more smoothly and have a lot less problems if people didn't disagree, fight, and kill eachother over things like religion, which I have seen to be little more than what I always say it are, myths, legends, and silliness.

One time an atheist made fun of me.

I punched him in the face.

He doesn't bother me anymore.

One time an atheist made fun of me.

I punched him in the face.

He doesn't bother me anymore.

What did he actually say?

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.


congrats that most likely makes you an agnostic.

cool welcome to your new found religion my brother.

What did he actually say?
Basically just random stuff about how religion is absurd, as most people here are doing. He then topped it off by trying to imply that I was stupid and he was smart. I was going to ignore it because I'm a genius and he's a moron, but when he said something about the "turn the other cheek" verse in the Bible, I thought it would be funny if I punched him in the face.

Basically just random stuff about how religion is absurd, as most people here are doing. He then topped it off by trying to imply that I was stupid and he was smart. I was going to ignore it because I'm a genius and he's a moron, but when he said something about the "turn the other cheek" verse in the Bible, I thought it would be funny if I punched him in the face.


Ah. I suppose that justifies it, then. I never question people's(/peoples') intelligence, it's a stupid thing to do. Dangerous, even.

Basically just random stuff about how religion is absurd, as most people here are doing. He then topped it off by trying to imply that I was stupid and he was smart. I was going to ignore it because I'm a genius and he's a moron, but when he said something about the "turn the other cheek" verse in the Bible, I thought it would be funny if I punched him in the face.

And you think this makes you sound like the intelligent one?

And you think this makes you sound like the intelligent one?


Doesn't matter, there was irony in his actions.

And you think this makes you sound like the intelligent one?
More like: doesn't matter, because I know I am the intelligent one.

I don't know you, but I already love you.

Hmm...I'll have to do something to fix that. ;)

As a practicing Buddhist and a scientist, I often get asked if I believe in god. In Buddhism, it doesn't realyl matter, but I don't believe in god or any real higher power. I believe in reincarnation and Dhamma and Sanghya and the Buddha, becuase all of these things make sense to me.


Heh, I know completely what you mean. It never ceases to shock me how many people will ask someone if they believe in God and then get frustrated if the answer given doesn't fit neatly into a monotheistic frame. Whats worse is when you end up giving an answer like "yes, but likely not in an external sense."

Religion is like a drug. But people take drugs for many different reasons.

Two manhattans a day will keep heart disease at bay. It is all about the individual, and their strength. More importantly, it is about control. There is a great difference between the man who uses for pleasure, for medicine, or for inspiration, and the man who uses to escape.

Why doesn't everyone just accept that God cannot be disproved nor proven and to fight over it is like two 3-year-olds arguing over what they're supposed to do with their private parts. YOU'LL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH, JUST WAIT IT OUT FOR GOD'S SAKE!

I am an Athesit, but i respect Relgion and i attend a Cathoilc school. I think that religion is wonderful on a commnity level, because it causes a sense of unity and goodwill. It makes the nation on a community level strogner. It is a natural part of the human mind to accept/create a Higher Being. [i might be wrong about God, but i hope as long as i live as a good person i can got to hevan]The only time i get annoyed is when people try to govern a naiton based on religon. Quite frankly, america is run by the consititution, not the Bible. I jsut dont like it when Religon is used for wars, corrupiton, decit, intolerance, and when you base a countires laws on it. Relgion is a good thing, which as all good things can be abused by the worng people. People trying to base legal decisons of Religion really, really annoy me. not trying to start a war here, but for example aboriton. Religion says it is immoral, and so do i. But, we are a naiton of laws, and those laws say it is legal. Thats what we base it off of.

Both Christianity and Athiesm can be interpreted as a sort of insecurity or fear. For Christians it could be seen as being afraid that there is no true purpose in life and the possibility that this life is all we get. For Athiests it could be fear that if there is a god then he/she/it may have some master plan and that they are not in true control of their actions, causing them them to deny the possibility that there is a god. This could be a load of nonsense but it might not be. Either way people should allow people to believe whatever they want to believe and let others do the same.

Why doesn't everyone just accept that God cannot be disproved nor proven and to fight over it is like two 3-year-olds arguing over what they're supposed to do with their private parts. YOU'LL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH, JUST WAIT IT OUT FOR GOD'S SAKE!
I am astounded that 3-year olds even know what to do with their private parts.

Personally, I would suspect bad parenting.

Not nearly as much as atheists attempting to force thier non-belief on me and my life with their substitute belief system of Evolution, while ridiculing anyone that dares disagree with them and dismissing them all as being "stupid", because they don't agree with them. And using G. W. Bush as a reason why part of a reason why God cannot exist is an almost staggering example of predjudice, stupidity, intolerance and hatred.

But 's okay. God still loves you.

Not nearly as much as atheists attempting to force thier non-belief on me and my life with their substitute belief system of Evolution, while ridiculing anyone that dares disagree with them and dismissing them all as being "stupid", because they don't agree with them. And using G. W. Bush as a reason why part of a reason why God cannot exist is an almost staggering example of predjudice, stupidity, intolerance and hatred.

But 's okay. God still loves you.
How is evolution a belief system?

Not nearly as much as atheists attempting to force thier non-belief on me and my life with their substitute belief system of Evolution, while ridiculing anyone that dares disagree with them and dismissing them all as being "stupid", because they don't agree with them. And using G. W. Bush as a reason why part of a reason why God cannot exist is an almost staggering example of predjudice, stupidity, intolerance and hatred.

But 's okay. God still loves you.


Religion doesnt piss me off...

Religious PEOPLE like this, piss me off.

I'm technically lutheran, but I sure as hell don't act like it. I have no problem speaking blasphemy and other things by which most christians would be astounded. Luckily for lutherans, belief in Jesus = you go to Heaven. Nothing else matters.
Besides, even if I'm wrong, it makes no difference. Christianity is the only religion I'm aware of that has a Hell, so at least this way, no matter what the truth is, I won't be going there. I don't really give a damn about anything else because it doesn't affect me.

That's one of the reasons why I disagree with religion. Someone could be like an atheist Mother Teresa and go to hell, while you could be a serial killer (not implying that you are) and if you believe in god, you go to heaven. :confused:
If there is an good and all-powerful god, why is there suffering?

religion is slavery for mankind...
if a god really exist he will not seperate christians from hindus, moslems or jews

Why doesn't everyone just accept that God cannot be disproved nor proven and to fight over it is like two 3-year-olds arguing over what they're supposed to do with their private parts. YOU'LL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH, JUST WAIT IT OUT FOR GOD'S SAKE!

Why not just play with those privite parts? Or would God disaprove?

God needs no religion !!!

Why, oh why, do people, especially atheists of the irascible and huffy variety, assume that Religion = fundamentalist Christianity? Or even Religion = Monotheism?

It's amusing to see such folks go on rants about the ignorance of others.

Piffle. Some 90-odd % of the human race has at least 1 religion.
Some have more - I could easily be accused of having 3.

At any rate, atheists are just another tiny loudmouth minority.
Their feelings and opinions are utterly irrelevant.

http://www.wimp.com/canadians/
( substitute atheist for canadian, and no insult to canadians intended.
not even if they are atheists! )

Piffle. Some 90-odd % of the human race has at least 1 religion.
Some have more - I could easily be accused of having 3.

At any rate, atheists are just another tiny loudmouth minority.
Their feelings and opinions are utterly irrelevant.

http://www.wimp.com/canadians/
( substitute atheist for canadian, and no insult to canadians intended.
not even if they are atheists! )


Religious idiots like this piss me off, too.

90% of the populace have a religion? About a quarter of the populace are atheist.
At any rate, I don't really care what you think of my opinions. You are entitled to think my opinion is irrelevant, and therefore I am entitled to think that your opinion that my opinion is irrelevant is itself irrelevant. Or... something. I don't care if you follow any religion/non-religion you want- I just feel like expressing my views on why I don't follow a religion and having a debate on the subject.

Religious idiots like this piss me off, too.

Of the US population ( source Gallup ):
About 50% consider themselves religious
About 33% consider themselves "spiritual but not religious"
About 10% regard themselves as neither spiritual or religious.
7% non-responders.

So there's the whole point: a 10% minority that is atheist/agnostic/humanist is equivalent to the lone juryman who swears he has never met 11 such obstinate fellows in his life!

You´re totally outvoted, and out of touch with the majority.

Not everyone lives in the USA, you know. 27 point something of the world's population are atheist.

Not everyone lives in the USA, you know. 27 point something of the world's population are atheist.


Righteo. Have you tried a poll in Saudi Arabia? How about Algeria, Egypt, Gaza?

Ever since the fall of the Warsaw Pact ( the largest bloc of secular countries ) , the role of religion in public affairs has shown a remarkable global increase.

Secularism is fighting a losing battle.
And why?
Because it is just a tiny minority - which is totally out of touch with the majority.

Which - returning to the original point of this thread - makes the majority say:
So what?
Why should we give a hoot about arguments that minority has to make?

Not everyone lives in the USA, you know. 27 point something of the world's population are atheist.

This is true. However, many of those atheists are atheists in that they have no gods, but often believe other things the traditional western 'atheist' would also rail against.

I have series doubts about everyones religious beliefs being different.

I think for the most part you can simply supply me with the name of your religion and I'll tell you what you believe. No one questions what they hear from the pulpit.

As to religion and law if any one honestly believes in the rightness of there own belief system they want it to be law. No one who sees all abortion as child murder wants to see abortion legal as it would be like supporting murder. No one who believes homosexual marriages is bad for society wants to see homosexual marriages. No one who believes sex between people 18 and over and people 17 and younger is always harmful to the younger person would support allowing those types of sexual relations to remain legal. No one who believes a belief in Christianity is good for society and atheism is bad for society and that teaching creationism creates converts to Christianity while teaching evalution converts to atheism would want only evalution tuaght in schools. The simple fact of the matter is. A persons beliefs directly contribute to the policies they support.

Of the US population ( source Gallup ):
About 50% consider themselves religious
About 33% consider themselves "spiritual but not religious"
About 10% regard themselves as neither spiritual or religious.
7% non-responders.

So there's the whole point: a 10% minority that is atheist/agnostic/humanist is equivalent to the lone juryman who swears he has never met 11 such obstinate fellows in his life!

You´re totally outvoted, and out of touch with the majority.

and youre a religious idiot, that pisses me off.

First...this poll, as stated, is an American poll.
Remember that this country was founded by puritanical religious zealots.
America has always been pre-dominantly Christian.

Secondly, you assume that Athiests cannot be also spiritual.

Thats pretty much what makes you an idiot.

and youre a religious idiot, that pisses me off.

First...this poll, as stated, is an American poll.
Remember that this country was founded by puritanical religious zealots.
America has always been pre-dominantly Christian.

Secondly, you assume that Athiests cannot be also spiritual.

Thats pretty much what makes you an idiot.

*laughs uproariously*

As it so happens, 30% of the US-population picked the spiritual option - NOT atheism. It's an either/or thing.

Micromanaging defintions won't stop you from being the utterly marginalised and out of touch minority.

For your perusal, I nicked the following demographical projections off the net.
Global predictions: 2025:
Christians: 33.5%
Muslims: 20.2%
non-religious: 15.0%
Hindu´s: 13.1%
Buddhists: 5.7%
Atheists: 2.8%
Chinese Folk Religions: 2.7%
Jews: 0.3%
Shamanists: .2
Confuciansts: .3 etc.

So, even if I ADD non-religious and atheists together, you're polling a possible 17.8% of the human race in 2025. And that we get by adding non-religious ( spiritual ) and atheists together.

That's exactly the kind of showing that the SDLP makes in Brittain, and I confidently expect them to be marginal for the next 25 years as they were in the past 25 years.

Of the US population ( source Gallup ):
About 50% consider themselves religious
About 33% consider themselves "spiritual but not religious"
About 10% regard themselves as neither spiritual or religious.
7% non-responders.

So there's the whole point: a 10% minority that is atheist/agnostic/humanist is equivalent to the lone juryman who swears he has never met 11 such obstinate fellows in his life!

You´re totally outvoted, and out of touch with the majority.

Just becuase we are outnumbered does not mean we are not right. Also being the majority gives no right to persacute the minority.

I have no problem with being out of touch with the majority. Kevin Trudeau's book was a national best seller and so wasn't the book Oprah supported both books are full of lies. Being out of touch with the majority means I don't get scammed like the rest of them.

I'd rather hoped the raisin-hating would have taken over, thus reducing the trolling and nonsense.

And why do I hate raisins? Because they remind me of figs, and everyone knows that God hates figs (http://www.godhatesfigs.com/index2.html). Anyway, yeah...

*laughs uproariously*

As it so happens, 30% of the US-population picked the spiritual option - NOT atheism. It's an either/or thing.

Micromanaging defintions won't stop you from being the utterly marginalised and out of touch minority.

If you think being an athiest makes anyone an "out of touch" minority, youre quite simply, a gibbering idiot.

Also, 30% of Americans DID NOT choose any particular choice.
30% of those polled...did.
This numbers do not reflect the entire population of any country, unless you poll every single person in that country.

More likely, this was about 100 people, from a few states.

Also, if Athiesm were truly marginalized, then why all the uproar about teaching ID in class?
Certainly, if Christianity were thundering along so nicely, there would be no problems teaching that, would there?

More importantly, you obviously have a warped sense of what an "Athiest", really is.
It simply means ....I dont believe in God.

No more... no less.

To imply that this means a lack of anything, except its literal translation "One who is without God.", defeats any arguement you make against it.

Furthermore, to futher prove your idiocy, you may notice how Athiests can distinguish between the much hated "Fundie", and your average church-goer.

You, apparently, cannot make any sort of distinguishment of the opposition.

Just becuase we are outnumbered does not mean we are not right. Also being the majority gives no right to persacute the minority.

I have no problem with being out of touch with the majority. Kevin Trudeau's book was a national best seller and so wasn't the book Oprah supported both books are full of lies. Being out of touch with the majority means I don't get scammed like the rest of them.

If you are out of touch with the rest of us, we feel no great need to listen to your arguments in the first place.
That is your basic mistake.
Out of office, out of power, out of touch.
Even if you WERE right, it would not matter at all.

I know that Ch'an-Buddhism and Christianity cannot both be right at the same time. But I don't let the paradox bother me at all.

I'd rather hoped the raisin-hating would have taken over, thus reducing the trolling and nonsense.

And why do I hate raisins? Because they remind me of figs, and everyone knows that God hates figs (http://www.godhatesfigs.com/index2.html). Anyway, yeah...

ROFLMAO! That was one of the most hilarious sites I have ever seen.

If you think being an athiest makes anyone an "out of touch" minority, youre quite simply, a gibbering idiot.

Also, 30% of Americans DID NOT choose any particular choice.
30% of those polled...did.
This numbers do not reflect the entire population of any country, unless you poll every single person in that country.

More likely, this was about 100 people, from a few states.

Also, if Athiesm were truly marginalized, then why all the uproar about teaching ID in class?
Certainly, if Christianity were thundering along so nicely, there would be no problems teaching that, would there?

More importantly, you obviously have a warped sense of what an "Athiest", really is.
It simply means ....I dont believe in God.

No more... no less.

To imply that this means a lack of anything, except its literal translation "One who is without God.", defeats any arguement you make against it.

Furthermore, to futher prove your idiocy, you may notice how Athiests can distinguish between the much hated "Fundie", and your average church-goer.

You, apparently, cannot make any sort of distinguishment of the opposition.

I'm so happy you mentioned ID - because it is EXACTLY the kind of drivel I don't take kindly to.
That was an example of a religious marginal minority squaling for public attention. Just stamp it out.

Idiocy?
What do WE possibly stand to gain from listening to the opposition - UNLESS the Opposition has something nice for us? That's the whole out of touch thing again. Unless you have something good to bring to the party, and wear the right attire, and have the tickets, expect to be refused admission at the door.

More importantly, you obviously have a warped sense of what an "Athiest", really is.
It simply means ....I dont believe in God.

No more... no less.

To imply that this means a lack of anything, except its literal translation "One who is without God.", defeats any arguement you make against it.


Indeed, atheist technically only means no(a) god(theist). It doesn't preclude belief in anything supernatural except for god(s). What would be the term for one who is without any sense of the supernatural? Materialist? "Secular Humanist"?

Indeed, atheist technically only means no(a) god(theist). It doesn't preclude belief in anything supernatural except for god(s). What would be the term for one who is without any sense of the supernatural? Materialist? "Secular Humanist"?

For all practical intents and purposes, however, that is the operational definition of atheist.

My old mom would be the perfect example of the non-religious but spiritual category. She doesn't believe in any god, doesn't attend any services, but is quite happy with Feng Shui.
And lest I forget... she takes severe exception to being called atheist.

Addendum: we don't persecute you ( cabbache patch ) - we merely jeer and boo you off the stage.

Stand on soapbox - expect to be pelted with rotten eggs.

I dont know about you, but in my opinion religion is just annoying.
Christians and other religions simply IGNORE stuff and it makes me want to smash their brains over the wall and find what part of it makes them so gullible. Ofcourse they want to do the same to me no doubt.
The reason this happens for me is that
A: Dinosaurs.
B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.
C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.
D: the fact there is evil around us.
E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

And so on and so forth.
Basically this is a thread about how much religion annoys you.
Oh and any christians or other religious types wanting to combat my 5 points please do.
Number 5 is pretty watertight methinks.Here's a question back at you.

why is it that people who don't like "Religion being forced upon them" start up religion bashing threads under the guise of "just asking a question" then complain about having "Religion being forced upon them?" Isn't that like saying that porcupine quills hurt, then going ahead to grab the porcupine and complaining to the Ranger that the porcupine quills hurt?

I'm so happy you mentioned ID - because it is EXACTLY the kind of drivel I don't take kindly to.
That was an example of a religious marginal minority squaling for public attention. Just stamp it out.

Even the lowliest of animals often disregards its own feces.

Idiocy?
What do WE possibly stand to gain from listening to the opposition - UNLESS the Opposition has something nice for us? That's the whole out of touch thing again. Unless you have something good to bring to the party, and wear the right attire, and have the tickets, expect to be refused admission at the door.

So....do I need to quote your own scripture at you, to show you how arrogant that sounds?
What youre saying is "Unless you say what I want to hear, I dont want to listen!"

Well, Christian, life isnt like that. Fortunatly, in this country, I have the right to be every bit of a loud-mouth jerk as you do, regardless of what we believe in.
My opinion counts just as much as yours does, in every subject either of us wishes to bring up.

What do you get from the oppositions point of views?

How about a different perspective of life?
Something that may bring some new blood to the dusty veins of your closed mind?

Im not trying to make an athiest out of you, just showing you that to automatically dismiss anyone out of hand, for having a different view, makes you a prick, and a hypocrite, to your own faith.

I'm ever so curious WHICH of my 3 different scriptures you'd quote at me.

Sure. You have the same right to be a loudmouth as I do. I encourage you to use it. Absolutely.

But what you don't have is the right to a hearing.
Nor to the slightest amount of attention.

And you'll have to live with the fact that the moment you get on a soapbox involved in a thread called 'does religion make you angry too', I can exercise my right to pelt you with rotten eggs.

Hmmm.. I'd go further.
Wear campaign-button - expect unidigital salute.

Since you're in the tiny minority, your opinion counts as much as the opinion of Cindy Sheehan. Zero, zippo, zilch.

Why should I want a new perspective? The old one suits me fine.

Not quite Backwardswatches

I wouldn't call being closed minded being hypicritical to Christianity.

Seems to me the doctine is Christianity is the truth all else is the devils lies and you can not listen to the devils lies less you be swayed by them.

Here is one thing about religion that ticks me off.

I've heard many times these verses support spanking. I do not believe they do. These verses come from the infallable always correct Bible.

Proverbs

10:13. In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

13:24. He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

22:15. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

23:13. Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

26:3. A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

29:15. The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

20:30. The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

Ok I think we can gain this sacred insight from the Bible. In order to properly raise a child we she beat him many times with a rod and leave wounds and stripes. Hitting people with a rod makes them smarter.

I'm ever so curious WHICH of my 3 different scriptures you'd quote at me.

Sure. You have the same right to be a loudmouth as I do. I encourage you to use it. Absolutely.

But what you don't have is the right to a hearing.
Nor to the slightest amount of attention.

And you'll have to live with the fact that the moment you get on a soapbox involved in a thread called 'does religion make you angry too', I can exercise my right to pelt you with rotten eggs.

Hmmm.. I'd go further.
Wear campaign-button - expect unidigital salute.

Since you're in the tiny minority, your opinion counts as much as the opinion of Cindy Sheehan. Zero, zippo, zilch.

Why should I want a new perspective? The old one suits me fine.


Wow.

Just ...wow....

Youre such a stereotype, Its not even worth making fun of you.
Youre like.....a larger than life running gag.

Wow.

Just ...wow....

Youre such a stereotype, Its not even worth making fun of you.
Youre like.....a larger than life running gag.

Good. Now go and be a good little boy, and vote for the Greens or something...

*grabs another bagful of rotten eggs*


UN Category: Capitalist Paradise
Civil Rights: Some
Economy:Thriving
Political Freedoms:Few

*happy as a bug in a rug*

Not quite Backwardswatches

I wouldn't call being closed minded being hypicritical to Christianity.

Seems to me the doctine is Christianity is the truth all else is the devils lies and you can not listen to the devils lies less you be swayed by them.

"I dunno man, it sounds kinda white."
-Frank Zappa, "Head-The Movie".

ONLY if it is rammed down my gob :mad:

But 's okay. God still loves you.

I've always disliked that statement, it assumes too much. It assumes that you are simply misguided, that you are on the wrong path, that a good christian simply hasn't explained it right, that god hasn't softened your heart yet because it isn't time to do so yet in his great plan. Most worst of all, it forgets that there are unforgiveable sins. Your YHVH/Jehova/trinity might love you, but I am fairly sure that he does not love me. Not all non-christians are merely lost little lambs, some of us are commandment breakers, willfull heretics and blasphemers, even apostates.

Not every non-christian is simply ignorant. Some of us have looked at the bible and found it wanting, some have felt the light of god and found it unplesant. You would do well to remember that.

religion is slavery for mankind...
if a god really exist he will not seperate christians from hindus, moslems or jews

Again, an athiest assuming that all religion needs gods and all gods are exist within a monotheistic framework. Is your experiance of the world really so narrow that you see no other possibilities? Why is it that these discussions always devolve into a choice between Marx or Torquemada? Dogmatic absolutism is the sign of a weak mind and a weak faith.

Again, an athiest assuming that all religion needs gods and all gods are exist within a monotheistic framework. Is your experiance of the world really so narrow that you see no other possibilities? Why is it that these discussions always devolve into a choice between Marx or Torquemada? Dogmatic absolutism is the sign of a weak mind and a weak faith.


Probably because very few people who live on the middle ground can be bothered to respond to a thread asking: does religion make you angry too?

90% of the populace have a religion? About a quarter of the populace are atheist.

If you'd been paying close attention you'd see that those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

I have series doubts about everyones religious beliefs being different.

I think for the most part you can simply supply me with the name of your religion and I'll tell you what you believe. No one questions what they hear from the pulpit.

Again with the assumption of ancient western monotheism. There are faiths without a pulpit, without priests, and with highly malleable beliefs. Still, I'll take your challenge.

Tell me what I believe.

Probably because very few people who live on the middle ground can be bothered to respond to a thread asking: does religion make you angry too?

Right.

Type 1 (hates religion) will respond to the affermative.
Type 2 (loves religion) will respond to defend thier faith.
Type 3 (agnostic, had disdain for organized religion) may or may not respond.
Type 4 (religious, but doesn't really care what a bunch of frothy-mouthed athiests think) won't respond at all.
Type 5 (agnostic, but doesn't care what a bunch of bible-thumpers have to say to the above mentioned frothy-moputhed ahiests) will definatly skip the thread.
Type 6 (atheist, but doesn't want to impose his beleifs on others) may or may not respond.
Type 7 (devils advocate, someone just in for a fight, et. al.) will respond.

Out of the 7 (arbitary) groups of people listed, only the extreamists and those in group seven are likely to respond. Hence the lack of a middle ground.

I think in a book about buddhism I once read that even if it was found out, Buddha never lived, this would not mean an end of the religion because the point is that it helps people, that the teachings can exist to help people without any historic figure. I think the same about religion in general, religion helped maintain order by giving a moral ground, everyone could more or less accept. It helped people to gain hope and to be good to each other and since this is a merit, I can accept the illogicallities of it.

Religon doesn't anger me, because it makes so much sense. Any other theoretical physicists out there?

[tumbleweed]

OK, I'll say it anyways: some other entity must exist, because the universe exists. A 2D universe is impossible (the second dimension being 'O', the first being time, not like flat shapes) because with nothing to "view" you, you cannot verify your own existence and therefore do not exist. Within this universe each 1/infinitieth of a square inch can verify each other 1/infinitieth of a square inch in a physical, space and matter way, but the universe as of yet has nothing in a mental, time or energy way to proove we exist. As we are self-aware, it proves there must be someone beyond the boundries of the universe.

.

Well, there's evolution.

Evolution does not in any way disprove the existence of God. Try again.

And the fact that God doesn't speak to us.

God speaks to me - not in a verbal fashion, but I do receive guidance from God. Maybe you're just not listening.

And why would he even make people?

I don't claim to know the reasons behind the actions of God. I don't even claim to know the motivations of the person next to me, something I would be much more likely to understand.

And why would he make AIDS?

AIDS evolved.

Why wouldn't he smite all those who do "evil."

Well, for one, that would leave only infants and young children still in the world, assuming that evil actions require evil intent.

If he's almighty, why would there be a satan?

How does the existence of a Satan (or a Bob, or a Jim, for that matter) disprove the existence of a God? And how do you know there is a Satan, or that there must be one for God to also exist?

If all intelligent lifeforms require a creator, who created God...etc.

Did I ever say that all intelligent being (I don't think "lifeform" is the proper word to use) required a creator?

There are far more questions than there will ever be answers.

This is the only good point you've brought up in this entire thread. Congratulations.

You actually need to argue with me to see that religions are just a crock-pot of lunacy?

You made an assertion. Now actually back it up.

I'm waiting......

That's sad. Take any, ANY religion, read, out loud, any of the myths from any religion, and really, really think about them. They're no better than storybooks for children, except they sometimes have adult themes.

And this disproves God how?

Religion is like a drug. But people take drugs for many different reasons.

So is air, in some ways. What is your point?

How is evolution a belief system?

To be fair, for some it is. Some people hold to the idea of evolution with the same unwavering blind faith with which fundamentalists hold to their religions. They refuse to question it at all (a blatantly unscientific point of view) and then extrapolate all sorts of philosophical viewpoints out thier (usually rather flawed) understanding of its mechanisms.

When it comes right down to it, all sorts of things can be held as belief systems.

religion doesn't make me angry. the people who try to push it annoyingly upon others make me angry. the people who use religion as a source of power instead of a belief structure make me angry.

People who push religion make me angry.

People who push atheism make me angry.

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Neither side can can prove its validity, so debate is futile.

Both Christianity and Athiesm can be interpreted as a sort of insecurity or fear. For Christians it could be seen as being afraid that there is no true purpose in life and the possibility that this life is all we get. For Athiests it could be fear that if there is a god then he/she/it may have some master plan and that they are not in true control of their actions, causing them them to deny the possibility that there is a god. This could be a load of nonsense but it might not be. Either way people should allow people to believe whatever they want to believe and let others do the same.


I'm hardly athiest because I'm afraid of the possibility of God :rolleyes:

I'm athiest because I've seen what would be so obvious to everyone if they paid a bit more attention to religion scriptures, they're all just plain silly. Having wars over religion is about at stupid a thing to do as any.

In short: I'm against religion because it is a nonsensical waste of time and energy.

I have series doubts about everyones religious beliefs being different.

Many will claim to believe or follow a particular set of beliefs laid out by an organized religion, but then when you actually start talking to them, you find that they disagree with certain portions. I have yet to find a single person whose religion was exactly the same as any other single person.

I think for the most part you can simply supply me with the name of your religion and I'll tell you what you believe.

Christianity. Go.

No one questions what they hear from the pulpit.

Someone who does not question what they hear from the pulpit has faith in the preacher, not in God.

As to religion and law if any one honestly believes in the rightness of there own belief system they want it to be law.

Incorrect. I can truly believe that I am right and still know that I cannot empirically prove it, and thus have no right to force it on others.

The simple fact of the matter is. A persons beliefs directly contribute to the policies they support.

This is true of all human beings, but a person does not necessarily support making all of their beliefs into law.

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Neither side can can prove its validity, so debate is futile.


exactly.

I'm athiest because I've seen what would be so obvious to everyone if they paid a bit more attention to religion scriptures, they're all just plain silly.

Not all religions have scriptures. Not all religions use scripture as more than fables - stories from which to draw lessons.

Having wars over religion is about at stupid a thing to do as any.

This is certainly true. There is no reason to kill another over a religious dispute. None of us can know for certain whether or not we are correct until we die (and only then if there is an afterlife in which we can find this out).

In short: I'm against religion because it is a nonsensical waste of time and energy.

Even if that is true, why do you care if others expend their energy on it? They obviously don't find it to be a waste of time.

Putting together puzzles would be a waste of my time and energy, but it doesn't annoy me that others wish to spend lots of time doing it.

I'm hardly athiest because I'm afraid of the possibility of God :rolleyes:

I'm athiest because I've seen what would be so obvious to everyone if they paid a bit more attention to religion scriptures, they're all just plain silly. Having wars over religion is about at stupid a thing to do as any.

In short: I'm against religion because it is a nonsensical waste of time and energy.


For you. One of the advantags of not being tied down to the warlike mentality of tribal cultures is that you do not need everyone to conform in order to prove their loyalty to the group. Radical or militant atheism is every bit as dangerous as fundamentalist religious thought. It is not, at the core, the faiths involved that are dangerous, but rather the rabid need to force others to come to your way of thinking.

The athiest who calls religion a "nonsensical waste of time" is functionally identical to the Christian who pats the infidel on the head and says patronizingly "you just haven't felt the love of God." The ignorance of others and the arrogance in assuming that your experiance is the only valid one is the same in both individuals. This "I am right and you are wrong" bullshit is what turns people off. It is the desire to push an orthodoxy that is offensive. The insecure drive to push your opinion on others in order to validate your own choices is both dangerous and disgusting.

Religion as a whole doesn't bother me. It does nothing for me. In fact, it is a haven for people who (IMHO) have nothing else, so they turn to a made up magic that helps no one in general except the people who make money off it, ie: The churches.........which include all religions.
No, I don't believe in anything special, and sometimes I don't believe at all. Am I part of an organized religion? No. Was I born into one? Yes. Our hopes and dreams are what we make of them. We have no one to help us, but ourselves.
It is the zelots that anger me, and they come in all forms and facets of religions. They are the purests who object to anything they themselves disagree with. These are people that anger me and make me sick. Not their religions.

I'm tired, my eyes hurt, and I'm not in the mood to argue, so I'll just go straight to the point: Yes, religion annoys me, I live in Utah. If you're not LDS you're treated with less respect, plain and simple. Yes, I disagree with organized religion and any other form of hierarchy. No, I do not believe in "god" or any other form of divine nature. No, I don't care if you believe in god. I DO care if you push your values and morals onto other people, and I DO care if your god is a bigot (i.e. homophobic, xenophobic, racist, etc.).

Let the fighting continue...

People who push religion make me angry.

People who push atheism make me angry.

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Neither side can can prove its validity, so debate is futile.

Personally I debate because I enjoy it. I enjoy the exchanging of viewpoints, I enjoy the mental dueling, I enjoy occaissonally finding that one of my views is logically flawed so i can amend it and improve.

Well, I believe the greatest prove against religion is that there is evolution.
Even in religions, first you had matriarchal religions, then multitheist religion and now monotheist religions (veeeery roughly) So, if you say there is a god, you still have over a thousand gods to pick from, way too difficult for me:p

The only way religions annoy me is when random prople go to my door and try to convert me, accuse me of being evil because I dont blieve in their religion and/or are prejudiced aginst me when I dont go to the same church (or actually any church for that matter).
However, I realise that quite a few if not most religious people aren't like this but I wish the more sane members would reel the more fanatical ones in.

The only way religions annoy me is when random prople go to my door and try to convert me, accuse me of being evil because I dont blieve in their religion and/or are prejudiced aginst me when I dont go to the same church (or actually any church for that matter).
However, I realise that quite a few if not most religious people aren't like this but I wish the more sane members would reel the more fanatical ones in.

Therein lies the problem! They usually start knocking at the doors of total strangers AFTER we've told them to take a hike.

Religion as a whole doesn't bother me. It does nothing for me. In fact, it is a haven for people who (IMHO) have nothing else, so they turn to a made up magic that helps no one in general except the people who make money off it, ie: The churches.........which include all religions.

"The churches" does not include all religions. No one makes money off of my religion, and I attend no church.

I'm tired, my eyes hurt, and I'm not in the mood to argue, so I'll just go straight to the point: Yes, religion annoys me, I live in Utah. If you're not LDS you're treated with less respect, plain and simple. Yes, I disagree with organized religion and any other form of hierarchy. No, I do not believe in "god" or any other form of divine nature. No, I don't care if you believe in god. I DO care if you push your values and morals onto other people, and I DO care if your god is a bigot (i.e. homophobic, xenophobic, racist, etc.).

This sounds like religion doesn't annoy you, as per the bolded section. It is certain organized religions (ie. LDS) and certain things people do (ie. pushing their ideas on others) that annoys you.

Well, I believe the greatest prove against religion is that there is evolution.

That makes no sense at all. My religion has no problem with evolution, or with science in general. Thus, evolution cannot disprove my religion.

Even in religions, first you had matriarchal religions, then multitheist religion and now monotheist religions (veeeery roughly) So, if you say there is a god, you still have over a thousand gods to pick from, way too difficult for me

Even more than that. There really are an infinite number of ways we might envision the divine, and any, or even all of them (to an extent), might be correct.

The only way religions annoy me is when random prople go to my door and try to convert me, accuse me of being evil because I dont blieve in their religion and/or are prejudiced aginst me when I dont go to the same church (or actually any church for that matter).
However, I realise that quite a few if not most religious people aren't like this but I wish the more sane members would reel the more fanatical ones in.

How exactly do we do that? Are you planning on reeling in all of the more insane members of all of your beliefs and philosophies? Should a member of any given group be responsible for the extremists of the group? Should I be responsible for man-haters simply because I am a woman?

Dempublicents1 and The Sutured Psyche are now my two favorite people on the internet.

To address another issue, stupid Christians piss normal Christians off as well. Have you seen the "Trading Spouses" episode with the "God Warrior"? I haven't met a Christian who doesn't think that lady is insane. Additionally, how many have seen websites where some random Christian will denounce a certain game (Magic: the Gathering, to name one) as being satanic and evil and encourage all "fellow Christians" to boycott the game? As an MtG player, stupid people like that piss me off, too.

In short, I'm not angered by religion or simply stupid religious people. I am angered by stupid people in general. See my NS motto.

Interesting...It seems to Europa alpha, that you have not made many friends through this post. You seem to have turned christians against you (both those that believe it is literal, and those that do not), athiests against you, a few agnostics against you. Oh, and did I forget to mention everyone else that fits into any religion...yeah, you managed to offend them pretty well too. And the most logical of people are confused by your 'logic'

And I am yet to see you actually reply intelligently (emphasis on that word) on any of the points opposing your view. Do you think that your weak arguments and demeaning insults are going to change other's minds? Because if not, you are merely stirring up strife.

Riiiiiiight.
Well
Evil cannot exist because.

GOD IS PERFECT.
Yes?
Then God cannot create ANYTHING with ANY evil in it, because that would be evil in itself.
So... No!

To address this is rather simple.

There is no such thing as dark. There is just an absence of light.
There is no such thing as cold. There is just an absence of heat.
There is no such thing as evil. There is just an absence of God.

God created this world perfect. Nothing was wrong with this world. It was unmarred by evil. There was no death. He created man last out of all his creation. (Note this point, not before dinosaurs) Enter Satan, stage right. Satan fools Eve into disobeying God, and Eve fools Adam into disobeying God. Therefore sin has entered the world. To use another word. EVIL has entered the world. Satan is called the Master of this World. Evil exist primarily because of humans, not God.

The response is inevitable- Why doesn't God destroy evil? Why doesn't he stop all evil happenings? To do that would be to interfere with free choice.

One day you may have children. Which would kind of child would you rather have? A child with no free will, a robot as such. He loves you only because you say he must. He does no evil only because he had no control over his life. Or a child who loves you because he wants to? He has free will. And yet he still chooses to love you. Occasionally he may fall into 'evil,' or occasionally he may decide to leave you all together, but that was his choice, not yours. And you could not interfere with that without interfering with your child's free will. See where I'm going with this?

Evil is a product of sin. Sin is a product of humans, NOT God. God did not introduce evil, humans' did.

To some extent, God has defeated evil. When Jesus died on the cross, he took that punishment that we would have had to pay. When I die and I stand before God, I trust that God will find me guilty of sin, of evil. I also trust that Jesus will stand and say, 'Father, this one is mine. He has accepted my gift. I have taken his punishment. Let him into your presence!'

God has prepared a place for us where there will be no evil. It is called heaven, and Jesus is offering you the key. He wants to give you this gift. You cannot work for it. You cannot pay for it. You may only take his gift free of charge. Make the choice.

Christianity. Go.
My pleasure. I love a challenge. ^_^

You believe that God is a unique being outside of human existence. You believe he is responsible for the universe's creation. You believe this world to have been corrupted by either another outside force or the instinctive desire of man to rebel against its creator. You believe that God chose to overcome this initially by focusing on a particular group of individuals who came from an origin he could trust. You believe that this venture failed.

You believe that God created an avatar of himself in Jesus Christ. You believe that the events documented in a collection of writings about this avatar are accurately portrayed. You believe that in spite of his status as representative of God, Jesus was killed, then brought back to life. You have your own interpretation as to what was meant by this action, but the chances are good that you hold the writings of Paul of Tarsus in great esteem. You believe that there is an ascendence of spirit after death that extends to those who put their trust in this action. You also believe, to an extent, that there is some degree of afterlife even for those who don't, but you are of the opinion that this afterlife is in some way inferior.

You believe there to be some value in calling yourself a Christian. You also believe that people should treat you as an individual rather than judging you by this label. You believe the Church to be a force for the greater good in this day and age. You believe that the values outlined in the writings held as valuable by the Church should be adhered to, though you may have moral disagreements with some things it says.

The reason you hold this with such esteem is due to an unknowable wisdom that you have experienced in the past. You have been struck by a sudden clarity of thought that seems to drive your actions in a way that is so unbelievably refreshing compared to the mindless drone of modern existence. You believe the most valid explanation for this to hold to your idea of a personal God trying to engage with his creation. You want others to experience this peace of mind, but appreciate that it cannot be forced onto them. That can be somewhat frustrating at times.

You are annoyed that people who have not had this experience claim to know what is and isn't true despite a faulty analysis of the situation. You are also annoyed by anyone that makes claims to sole posession of truth. However, deep down, you believe them to be merely misguided, and have trouble justifying attitudes taken by those you associate yourself with in respect to them.

You may or may not go to church. You believe that God's actions in the world are found through his people. You believe that a world in which everyone listened to God and did what he told us would be perfect, but you also believe this world will not become such a world. You may be somewhat conflicted in the compatibility between the western society you live in and the beliefs you hold true. However, there is one thing you hold true. There is still hope in the future for a better world than this. It may be in this life or the next, but things will get better.

How does that sound?

A: Dinosaurs.

dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible. shows how much you know.

B: The fact most "Gods" didnt turn up till recently in human history and were only Active for a period of 20-60 years.

God is still active. the cosmos and the conditions for life balance on a razor's edge and are clearly kept in line by a divine being.

C: The fact that evolution is quite plainly real.

What about the fact that the cambrian explosion, which turns the evolutionary tree upside down, is plainly real? what about the fact that every experiment to make life out of nonliving materials has failed?

D: the fact there is evil around us.

the bible mentions that too. please. god did not create evil, man created evil. and anyways, God DOES have the ability to make something evil, though he has not. God is almighty and can do as he pleases.

E: the fact that places like soddom and gommorah were destroyed, yet a big rock has yet to land on G.W.Bush.

I'm more surprised that Darwin wasn't struck by lightning.


if you want to argue against christianity make sure you have some good points and actually know the first thing about it. I dare you to read "Refuting Evolution".

the bible mentions that too. please. god did not create evil, man created evil. and anyways, God DOES have the ability to make something evil, though he has not. God is almighty and can do as he pleases.


You, my friend, are wrong. In the Christian faith there is the issue of Satan. Unlike man, angels do not have free will, they cannot choose, they are aspects of the will of God. That makes the story of the fall quite puzzling. Satan could not have "become" evil because there was nothing to corrupt him. Satan could not choose evil, either, because angels lack free will. That means that either:

a)God created Satan an evil being
or
b)Satan and all he represents is not evil but merely engine through which he tempts and tests creation.

Clearly the first option has some major flaws, not the least of which being that God becomes personally responsible for all of the actions of Satan, knowing that he is creating an evil being without free will and knowing all of the things which it will do. This option makes Satan less an individual and more a force of nature, the evil side of the will of God. It also contradicts much of the mythology surrounding the struggle between good and evil that is inherant in the bible and, more broadly, in Christian thought. The real problem is that both of these options really become the same thing when you look carefully.

I believe that muslims (through the character of Iblis) ascribe to the view that evil is a tool of God's will (any muslims on the board feel free to contradict me here, my knowledge of Islam is far from complete and I am always interested in being corrrected). There is a hitch for Christians, however. If Satan is an aspect of God's Will, and Jesus is God in human form, then how can God tempt himself?

Satan is not an aspect of God's will.

God is perfect, but his creation is not. After all, how could something be as perfect as God?

Satan was tempted by power. Humans were tempted by Satan.

Power is not an evil thing unless it gets ahold of you. It got ahold of Satan.

And where does the bible say angels do not have free will?

You, my friend, are wrong. In the Christian faith there is the issue of Satan. Unlike man, angels do not have free will, they cannot choose, they are aspects of the will of God. That makes the story of the fall quite puzzling. Satan could not have "become" evil because there was nothing to corrupt him. Satan could not choose evil, either, because angels lack free will. That means that either:

a)God created Satan an evil being
or
b)Satan and all he represents is not evil but merely engine through which he tempts and tests creation.

Clearly the first option has some major flaws, not the least of which being that God becomes personally responsible for all of the actions of Satan, knowing that he is creating an evil being without free will and knowing all of the things which it will do. This option makes Satan less an individual and more a force of nature, the evil side of the will of God. It also contradicts much of the mythology surrounding the struggle between good and evil that is inherant in the bible and, more broadly, in Christian thought. The real problem is that both of these options really become the same thing when you look carefully.

I believe that muslims (through the character of Iblis) ascribe to the view that evil is a tool of God's will (any muslims on the board feel free to contradict me here, my knowledge of Islam is far from complete and I am always interested in being corrrected). There is a hitch for Christians, however. If Satan is an aspect of God's Will, and Jesus is God in human form, then how can God tempt himself?

Not all Christians are Catholics. Catholicism is the branch that has the vastly complicated histories and afterlives, such as the story of the fall, and angels being whatever they are - I'm not Catholic and never read much into this, so I don't know what all they believe. However, my point is: your argument here seems to only be an issue for Catholicism.

exactly, my protestant bible makes no mention of angels not having free will. The supposed "holy" texts that falsely claim to be written by the apostles added to the catholic bible go against many things in the regular bible.

exactly, my protestant bible makes no mention of angels not having free will. The supposed "holy" texts that falsely claim to be written by the apostles added to the catholic bible go against many things in the regular bible.
Sorry, I found that funny in my typical "Gotta love the irony" sort of way. ^_^

how is that?

My pleasure. I love a challenge. ^_^

=)

You believe that God is a unique being outside of human existence. You believe he is responsible for the universe's creation.

Good.

You believe this world to have been corrupted by either another outside force or the instinctive desire of man to rebel against its creator. You believe that God chose to overcome this initially by focusing on a particular group of individuals who came from an origin he could trust. You believe that this venture failed.

All incorrect.

You believe that God created an avatar of himself in Jesus Christ.

Something like that.

You believe that the events documented in a collection of writings about this avatar are accurately portrayed.

For the most part - or at least as accurately as the students of the original apostles could manage when it came time to write them down.

You believe that in spite of his status as representative of God, Jesus was killed, then brought back to life. You have your own interpretation as to what was meant by this action, but the chances are good that you hold the writings of Paul of Tarsus in great esteem.

Paul was a preacher. Some of what he had to say is probably accurate, and some of it is off-base. I hold his writings in no greater esteem than any other Christian of the time (when they can be found).

You believe that there is an ascendence of spirit after death that extends to those who put their trust in this action. You also believe, to an extent, that there is some degree of afterlife even for those who don't, but you are of the opinion that this afterlife is in some way inferior.

Essentially true. I do not claim to know exactly what the afterlife is, nor what it is for people who may come to God in other ways. There are likely many ways to follow Christ and thus come to God through him. Direct knowledge of or belief in the crucifixion may or may not be a necessary part of this.



If we are talking about "the Church" as in the Catholic Church, or any given organized religion, you are incorrect on the latter half of the paragraph. I think human beings, some of whom choose to be a part of the church can work to be a greater good, but the Church is only a force of good (or evil) depending on what its current members do.

If you are using "the Church" to mean all those who follow Christ's teachings, then I definitely think that it is a force for the greater good.

[quote]*snip*
How does that sound?

Pretty good, actually. You mostly stuck to the basics - those few things you can gleen from the term "Christian". I applaud you for not going into the more common stereotypes. There were a few things you had wrong, however, which goes to demonstrate my point. No two people hold exactly the same beliefs - not when you actually get down to the bottom of it. If we speak in vague generalities, we can draw out that which is common, but the more specific you get, the more varied the beliefs will become.

dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible. shows how much you know.

Not directly, they aren't. There are passages taht have been abstracted out to possibly refer to dinosaurs, but they are under quite a bit of dispute, and the only people who seem to think they refer to dinosaurs are those who wish to reject science.

What about the fact that the cambrian explosion, which turns the evolutionary tree upside down, is plainly real? what about the fact that every experiment to make life out of nonliving materials has failed?

Methinks you are a bit confused as to the cambrian explosion, and exactly what a scientific theory is.

I'm more surprised that Darwin wasn't struck by lightning.

Why? Darwin was as faithful a Christian as GW - most likely moreso.

if you want to argue against christianity make sure you have some good points and actually know the first thing about it.

If you want to argue in favor of your particular version of Christianity, I think you need to do the same.

I dare you to read "Refuting Evolution".

I tend to stick to reading scientific texts and journals for my science. I'll move to religious texts if I want religion.


You, my friend, are wrong. In the Christian faith there is the issue of Satan. Unlike man, angels do not have free will, they cannot choose, they are aspects of the will of God.

Theologians dispute whether or not angels have free will, as well as whether or not they exist at all. =)

exactly, my protestant bible makes no mention of angels not having free will. The supposed "holy" texts that falsely claim to be written by the apostles added to the catholic bible go against many things in the regular bible.

You haven't actually read the Apocryphal texts, have you? IIRC, they don't "claim to be written by the apostles", at least not the ones I have read from.

Again with the assumption of ancient western monotheism. There are faiths without a pulpit, without priests, and with highly malleable beliefs. Still, I'll take your challenge.

Tell me what I believe.

I can't unless it's a branch of one of the Old Book Religions and it's heavily infleunced by western philosophy.

Your right I miss spoke.

Humans make me angry, and religion is humanity at its strongest and weakest. Sometimes religion doesn't bother me. Other times I want to strangle some people for being closed-minded and holier-than-thou. Religion can be good and even great. But I don't think that people should act like they have all the answers. None of us have basically any answers at all. Admit it! Religion is a man-made affair.

seems one attempt to nail down a persons belief system failed. Athough he seems to the raisen on a vine of grapes. I think if a questioniar was generated and passed to the members of any conservitive church and it asked who they voted for, What they think of of Alito, Abortion, Homophiles, Spanking etc. etc. greater than 90% of the forms would be filled out in similer fashion.

All incorrect.
Ooh, interesting. Care to expand a little? I had assumed that you took the identity of God as something similar to that in the Old Testament, since that is the one from which the notion of external creation and divine kingdoms are derived, and also the one which many assume Jesus represented in his fulfilment of prophecy and teachings of Law. If that assumption isn't correct, then where does your interpretation of God come from?

If we are talking about "the Church" as in the Catholic Church, or any given organized religion, you are incorrect on the latter half of the paragraph. I think human beings, some of whom choose to be a part of the church can work to be a greater good, but the Church is only a force of good (or evil) depending on what its current members do.

If you are using "the Church" to mean all those who follow Christ's teachings, then I definitely think that it is a force for the greater good.
Well answered on this front! I hadn't even really thought to distinguish between them there, since I assumed that all members of the first would consider themselves members of the second, and the second could thus include all members of the first. But yeah, I can see the importance in that separation.

Pretty good, actually. You mostly stuck to the basics - those few things you can gleen from the term "Christian". I applaud you for not going into the more common stereotypes. There were a few things you had wrong, however, which goes to demonstrate my point. No two people hold exactly the same beliefs - not when you actually get down to the bottom of it. If we speak in vague generalities, we can draw out that which is common, but the more specific you get, the more varied the beliefs will become.
Thanks for the compliment! I just enjoyed the opportunity to put my understanding to the test.

Part of what this boils down to, though, is a question as to why one takes on a label "Christian" for his particular set of beliefs; that has never really been properly explained to me. To some people, even some Christians, a view of Jesus as the fulfilment of Jewish scripture and the two Gods as one and the same is intrinsic to what they mean by Christian. Some argue that the afterlife is an unnecessary concept in Christianity. Some make broad generalisations about social impact and claim that Christianity supports them.

It just seems like the notion of Christianity is itself a vast conglomerate of vastly different ideas with very little underlying universal principles, which begs the question "What is the purpose of assigning yourself that generalisation?"

Unholy wicked evil sinful massive snip.

It just seems like the notion of Christianity is itself a vast conglomerate of vastly different ideas with very little underlying universal principles, which begs the question "What is the purpose of assigning yourself that generalisation?"


I second the question.

A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ died to save us all from sin, rose from the dead three days later, and ascended into Heaven. That is the foremost fundamental belief of Christianity.

All of that other information often differs depending on what branch of Christianity someone adopts. The different branches form as a result of different interpretations of the Bible. However, they all share that first belief about Jesus.

Ooh, interesting. Care to expand a little? I had assumed that you took the identity of God as something similar to that in the Old Testament, since that is the one from which the notion of external creation and divine kingdoms are derived, and also the one which many assume Jesus represented in his fulfilment of prophecy and teachings of Law. If that assumption isn't correct, then where does your interpretation of God come from?

My interpretation of God comes from all sorts of places, not the least of which is simply my own personal reflection on the matter.

I do think that the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT. Of course, I think both are the same as the God of the Koran and the gods of various other religions. I think God is revealed in many ways in this world, and people, having different bases from which to view God, view God in many different ways. I view the OT as containing many lessons, and even possibly a prophesy of the coming Christ, but I do not consider it infallible. I think the ancient Hebrews did think that they were God's chosen people and did their best to understand God in the ways that they knew how, but I don't think that God ever had a "chosen people". I think God has interacted with humanity from the start, in ways that humanity could understand at that time, much as a parent tries to guide their children from the start, but must tailor that guidance to their level of development. Humanity, I think, is a "work in progress", as it were, and is still maturing.

As for corruption, I don't think anything "corrupted" the world, at least not in the sense that people generally think of. Evil, in my view, can only exist in actions, and then only in actions that the actor can understand. Human beings have free will and an understanding of the ramifications of our actions, and we can thus do evil things. I don't, however, think this is a corruption. It is a direct effect of free will. If we have free will, then we can do the wrong thing - we can harm others, we can move away from God, and so on.

Thanks for the compliment! I just enjoyed the opportunity to put my understanding to the test.

Your welcome.

Part of what this boils down to, though, is a question as to why one takes on a label "Christian" for his particular set of beliefs; that has never really been properly explained to me. To some people, even some Christians, a view of Jesus as the fulfilment of Jewish scripture and the two Gods as one and the same is intrinsic to what they mean by Christian. Some argue that the afterlife is an unnecessary concept in Christianity. Some make broad generalisations about social impact and claim that Christianity supports them.

As far as I am concerned, the term "Christian" can be applied to anyone who believes in and attempts to follow the teachings of Christ - anyone who thinks that Christ is, in some form, the path to salvation.

It just seems like the notion of Christianity is itself a vast conglomerate of vastly different ideas with very little underlying universal principles, which begs the question "What is the purpose of assigning yourself that generalisation?"

What is the purpose of any generalization? Humans feel the need to categorize things. The problem is that categorizing human beings is very difficult. We're all so different. We don't fit into neat little boxes. So if you really want to describe a person, you need all sorts of tiny categories and sometimes a unique one or two. But, in the end, "Christian" is easier to say than, "One who believes in and tries to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ," and I think that the above sentence is pretty much the only truly unifying principal in Christianity, although there are some other fairly universal principles.

Satan is not an aspect of God's will.

God is perfect, but his creation is not. After all, how could something be as perfect as God?

Satan was tempted by power. Humans were tempted by Satan.

Power is not an evil thing unless it gets ahold of you. It got ahold of Satan.

And where does the bible say angels do not have free will?

Ok, lets say that angels do have free will. That means that Revelations is false because there is no way to know a future which is not yet decided. If the future is already decided, and god is omnipotent, then the future is the design of God. The same can be said of Satan.

If angels are to have free will, then what is the point of man? Why the garden, why the earth, why all creation under heaven? Angels do not have will because they have not traditionally been thought of as independant beings. Jewish tradition looked at angels as mere expressions of God's will, the embodiment of God's actions. Christianity, coming from the Jewish tradition, has traditionally held the same view. They are servants, tools, nothing more.

The entire concept of free will is based around the idea of salvation, around the idea of choice. In Christianity it is necessary for men to have an alternative, you can either choose God or choose Satan. The same choice cannot be available for angels. What is the alternative? You claim that it is power, but being in the presence of an omnipotent being from the first moment of your creation would seem to argue against the concept of power being seductive. It would seem that angels (especially Satan) would have to be very stupid to not realize that they faced an unwinnable battle, which is demonstrably false by the mechanations that Satan would later arrange in the bible. Also, to what power would they turn? What thing could tempt a being such as Satan? Only something created by God, or some great flaw in thought or personality that is the direct result of creation by God (remeber, omnipotent means no mistakes and no unintended consequences). How can any will but that of God exist in such an enviornment?

Or, perhaps, Satan had free will and full capacity for thought. Perhaps he disliked being ordered around by a diety. Perhaps he yearned for freedom. Ah, but that cannot be the case. No benevolent God would grant his creation the desire for freedom and then refuse it. That would be cruel. One might even go so far as to say evil. No, that cannot work.

Perhaps I am missing something. All evidence I have seen points to angels being devoid of Will. Perhaps you can show me how they might have it while maintaining a cosmos that has a single all powerful God.

Not all Christians are Catholics. Catholicism is the branch that has the vastly complicated histories and afterlives, such as the story of the fall, and angels being whatever they are - I'm not Catholic and never read much into this, so I don't know what all they believe. However, my point is: your argument here seems to only be an issue for Catholicism.

Definately within the realm of possibility. I'm tempted to say that it doesn't really matter. You could say that God created the devil so that Anton Lavey would have someone to look up to. Your view would be at least as valid as that of the Pope and his 1500 years of tradition.

Religion is about faith, it becomes a problem when you try to apply that faith to others. That is the point I have been driving at on this board for awhile. I just figured that it was about time I called a Christian on what I'd been calling the athiests on, and there was Golgoroth, all convenient and fundamentalist.

exactly, my protestant bible makes no mention of angels not having free will. The supposed "holy" texts that falsely claim to be written by the apostles added to the catholic bible go against many things in the regular bible.

Ah ah ah, careful there. If you wish to rely on tradition and orthodoxy you need to think about where it comes from. The jews could make quite a similar condemnation of your protestant bible in relation to their Torah.

Besides, the point I was making was informed by your protestant bible, by the conclusions one would draw from reading it and thinking about the implications of the world it paints. Of course, one could always argue that the bible isn't meant to be treated so rationally, that it isn't the literal truth but rather a great parable. Thats the wonderful thing about religion: it is so malleable.

Theologians dispute whether or not angels have free will, as well as whether or not they exist at all. =)

Couldn't have said it better myself. Then again, sometimes I just have to slip into my devil's advocate outfit. Its so warm and red, and I really think the tail highlights my rock hard ass.

I can't unless it's a branch of one of the Old Book Religions and it's heavily infleunced by western philosophy.

Your right I miss spoke.

;)

Christ, someone admitting they miss spoke on NS? Get the Vapors, I do believe I need someone to help me to the fainting couch!

I wouldn't say religion angers me, but it does get on my nerves. While I do believe in God and stuff, I choose not to follow any religion. I see no point in burdening myself with church when I could be doing something else.:sniper: :mp5:

I wouldn't say religion angers me, but it does get on my nerves. While I do believe in God and stuff, I choose not to follow any religion. I see no point in burdening myself with church when I could be doing something else.:sniper: :mp5:

Religioin != church/organized religion. If you hold beliefs about God, then you hold to a religion, albeit one that is only your own.

I will say at this point that religion in my opinion and the purposes of this thread is.
Organised Religion
Religion that you believe in a DEFINATE ideal instead of a loose idea that there may be an afterlife, whether it be just you that believes in this DEFINATE idea or millions.

I will say at this point that religion in my opinion and the purposes of this thread is.
Organised Religion
Religion that you believe in a DEFINATE ideal instead of a loose idea that there may be an afterlife, whether it be just you that believes in this DEFINATE idea or millions.

I believe in definate religious ideals, yet my religion is not an organized one. In fact, there exists a religious prohibition against the concept of the priest. Further, the issue of the afterlife is simply not addressed by my faith. Eschatology is not a fetish of every religion.

Again, it is your very narrow experiance which limits your statements. You have seen Christianity and you assume that all faiths share it's flaws, that all believers are extremists, that all religion requires fundamentalism. Your statements and your arguments sound much like those of the charismatic christian who assumes that all who do not see the world as they do are either ignorant or in direct league with Satan. With each post you show a deeper and deeper lack of understanding, an increasingly one dimensional view of the world. What is worse, you continue to display this almost willful ignorance even in the face of direct evidence.

Strip away the specifics of your rhetoric and you are identical to all the other fundamentalists. Sure, athiesm is the justification for your absolutist attitude, but the way you think and the assumptions you make are indiscernable from those made by the likes of Pat Robertson.

No wonder everyone's ignoring my posts, I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.

I know, same here, and you don't have to insult people at all to actually argue about this but they are continously insult one another but uh agnostics rule

Not as angry as raisin bread makes me.

DAMN THAT RAISIN BREAD!!!

Im Jewish for the pure sake of throwing people off balance when they come to my house and say "We are selling Bibles. Ya want one?"

Im Jewish for the pure sake of throwing people off balance when they come to my house and say "We are selling Bibles. Ya want one?"
I prefer to whip out a copy of Scott Peck's work and extoll them on the sinfulness of trying to profit from the word of God, myself.