NationStates Jolt Archive

This is directed more toward U.S, posters, but anyone else who wants to anwer to this is more than welcome.

I know I've asked this question before(moths ago), but I didn't get anything resembling a good cross-section of posters...

What events in your life made you decide on your political stances? Why did you decide to go left/right, repo/dem?

To be fair, I'm including my own reasons...

I grew up in a steadfastly conservative family. At the age of 19 I was kicked out of the house, being told that "tough love" was the only way in which I could make something of myself.

I moved to San Diego CA. with a friend, since it was the only prospect I had of keeping a roof over my head. Less than a month later, I got a job at San Diego's Old Globe Theatre, the only place that would put me to work.

I worked there for nearly three years, in that time I saw some of the most crass and undenyably rude things comitted by social conservatives, most of which involved shouting about gays, women, and abortion. It made me angry. It made me think, "how can people who live in the same country vomit so much hatred toward their fellow citizens?"

From that point forward I have opposed the political "right", seeing them as people who seek to gain a (and I'm quoting Sci-Fi tv here) moral high ground when everyone is standing in the mud.

Now, I want to hear your stories. Not stoopid critiques of mine...

Hard to say, really. I was of a religion that was politically neutral, so I came to politics a bit late. I was always curious, so I jumped in when I first left my church--as it was a conservative church, I had that residue to work with at first. I leaned libertarian at first--my first presidential vote was for a libertarian--but it didn't take long to realize that the idea of rugged individualism, while great in terms of personal freedom, was utterly unworkable on the societal level. We're too interconnected globally.

The real turning point, though, was in 2000, with Bush v Gore. That's what made me an activist, and since then, it's been a pretty steady trip leftwards.

My family has been tories since around 1700. (Damn illegitmate people on the throne).

Anyway, I wouldn't want to break the streak.

Wow, that's a tough question. It's hard to remember.

I think it was back during the first Persian Gulf war. Around that time I started to get more politically involved, reading more and starting to understand things more.

I think it wasn't until I took a high-level US history class in high school that I finally figured out where I stood in terms of my political stances, and it was definitely more right of center. I was very conservative back in those days, and I think I've managed to mellow out a bit.

But I'm still right of center, but I've picked up a few quirks that don't make me a traditional conservative.

I used to be on the left, but after the '04 elections I got tired of the whining. Also, that's when I started listening to talk radio, and there was a Libertarian person on the radio who made alot of sense. So I became a Libertarian.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9866172&postcount=19

I started working and noticing that I'd work 25 hours a week and my pay check would be 90 bucks. That made me angry. Then I started working at a super market and noticed how many people on welfair bought the most expensive crap they could find with their food stamps. I noticed how they wore clothing that was more then I made in a week and here they are buying steak with my tax dollars. That made me angry as hell. I'm not a republican nor am I liberal. I just base my decisions on what I think is right. Smaller government, Less government interfearence in states. Equal rights for everyone no matter sex, race or sexual prefence. Most of all self sufficiency, I belive that everyone on this planet should stand on their own reputation and not be treated better or worse because they are black or white. Race, religion, or sex should play a part in the judgement of anyone. But thats just me.

My story is actually quite similar to yours, Greed. I grew up and live in a radically conservative house. Although my parents are not quite as bad as yours were, they have always been quite unsupportive. In particular, my father has consistently attempted to stifle any attempts towards free thought and individuality. I was raised to believe that Democrats are (and I qoute) "evil, slimy bastards". So for quite some time, I was Liberal at heart, but I called myself a Republican. After 9/11, my father revealed his true colors, and went on many an angry rant around the dinner table, often suggesting the slaughter of all Muslims. The so-called superiority of America was another frequent topic. Naturally, I was repulsed. I began calling myself a Liberal (outside of home, of course. I shudder to think what would happen to me if I admitted it at home.), and to seal the deal, I started dating a wonderful and firmly Liberal girl some months ago. I couldn't be happier.
:fluffle:

Jesse Jackson convinced me to favor the Republicans. Gray Davis convinced me to favor the Republicans more. Then George W Bush convinced me to favor the Democrats. John Kerry convinced me to favor the Democrats more.

I used to be on the left in Canadian politics, but was put off by the irrational all-consuming hysterical anti-American lunacy of the Canadian left, so I quickly treaded rightward. Strangely, as I travel overseas more, I continue to move rightward. :confused:

My political status is still in flux, but I currently consider myself a mild conservative. I think it comes down to economic policy - I prefer that the government keep its hands off as much as possible, and I favor a small government over a large one. I don't consider myself a social conservative (I'm not a part of the campaign against gay marriage, for instance), but I do loathe affirmative action.

I'm not entirely certain how I feel about the present "war on terror", or the situation in Iraq. I also know that I have very little in common with the so-called "Religious Right", being an atheist myself.

I was raised in a strongly conservative household, though, and went off to college only this year. That may also have something to do with it.

I'd also like to say that the political right does not necessarily equal the religious (or social) right. The nutjobs get more publicity, of course, but all of us Republicans are not bible-waving lunatics. I wish more people remembered this, and I wish most of all that the aforementioned lunatics would form their own damn party and stop trying to hijack mine. I have no problem with Christians of any stripe, but the crusade mentality that has become prominent recently bothers me.

I grew up conservative, listened to the talk radio the whole bit.

Though I had a friend who never had an interest in the subject as much as the argument. He would drill an argument that he didn't think stood up relentlessly, despite what it was for. If you wanted to talk to him about these kinds of things you had to think clearly about what it was you where going to say. It made you really interrogate your own ideas. Ultimately I couldn't defend the position anymore. I couldn't do it. It didn't work. I had to switch gears.

Part of why I come here is to keep that tradition alive. I know that I can post here that the sky is blue and someone will come along and call me a retard for not realizing it's green. I will hear the other side. It won't always be the best they can put forward, and I'll get frustrated when the person isn't arguing in 'good faith' so to speak because I feel like I'm being robbed. Like someone pointed at my shirt and then flick my nose...

I grew up in a pretty traditional liberal family, but I didn't really care except in so far as I said "Whatever mom and dad say". At a fairly young age, I was quite good friends with a very conservative Mormon family down the street from my house. At first it wasn't a huge issue, the adults managed to carefully avoid any politics at all around me, but their kids didn't. The first impression of Conservativism I got was being beat up by a kid in two times better shape than me for cursing when I fell off of a trampoline (and landed quite hard).

I still made a point of avoiding politics strongly, even as I made my way into my teens, but when early '04 came around I found myself hearing many of the things I had heard from my neighbors. I decided to find out more. Perhaps more out of a desire to be neither a conservative nor a Democrat, I pushed myself as far to the left as possible. I've been traveling (economically) right every since.

In terms of social issues, I would have to have all of my early memories wiped to every become authoritarian at all.

I had to work 2 jobs(a FT sales job in a crappy cube farm and then 20 hrs a week as a bouncer in the evenings) and could barely pay my bills at the end of the month. One day I found myself in a grocery store trying to decide how much soup I should buy. If I bought enough to eat one meal a day, I wouldn't have enough gas to get to my 2 jobs.
I opened my wallet (to see if I had maybe miscounted my money or possibly a fairy had put some more in there) and saw my pay stub from my last check. My eyes were drawn to the income tax withheld line and I noticed that if the government hadn't taken my money away from me before I had a chance to get my hands on it, I wouldn't be having this pathetic debate with myself in the soup aisle.
That's when I really started to pay more attention to politics. And just in case anyone was wondering, I stole the soup.

From that point forward I have opposed the political "right", seeing them as people who seek to gain a (and I'm quoting Sci-Fi tv here) moral high ground when everyone is standing in the mud.


Not standing. Playing. :)

I had to work 2 jobs and could barely pay my bills at the end of the month. One day I found myself in a grocery store trying to decide how much soup I should buy. If I bought enough to eat one meal a day, I wouldn't have enough gas to get to my 2 jobs.
I opened my wallet (to see if I had maybe miscounted my money or possibly a fairy had put some more in there) and saw my pay stub from my last check. My eyes were drawn to the income tax withheld line and I noticed that if the government hadn't taken my money away from me before I had a chance to get my hands on it, I wouldn't be having this pathetic debate with myself in the soup aisle.
That's when I really started to pay more attention to politics. And just in case anyone was wondering, I stole the soup.

Eh? So you are some form of soup stealing bolchevist?

I know how you feel though, one year I could barely keep the ponies in oats.

As an American, I am all over the radar. A radical libertarian does not fit well within the American political spectrum, but I would consider myself to be a bit left of center. My upbringing has a great deal to do with that.

I grew up in a christian conservative family in the rural midwest. While I am sure there were bigotries and biases that I was immersed in, they were from simple ignorance and not some inherent dislike. So while I was raised with very conservative midwestern values, I was lucky in receiving a clean slate on social issues. This has lead me to be completely dumbfounded by much of the evangelicals. I have always understood christianity, but I have never understood this radical upheaval against civil and social progressivism. In our town we were christian and pious, but above all we were private. We liked our fences, and since they were often shared, we liked our neighbors fences as well.

This probably explains my intense individualism. I was raised to be a private individual, and that still sits with me today. While college level economics has taught me lessons that probably wouldn't have been plain to my morals, it was definitely my upbringing that made me like I am.

Eh? So you are some form of soup stealing bolchevist?No, I'm a somewhat conservative libertarian. Not proud of it but at the time, thinking of having to live on peanuts and bar olives for a week seemed worse than going to jail.

I grew up in a Republican household and had my "enlightenment" that the world wasn't perfect/easy/middle-class everywhere at around my entry into Middle School. Somewhere around 7th-8th grade, I decided that the reason for the world's problems must be some fly in the ointment, and, noticing that most of the Black kids were the poorer ones (and most of the rude people were black) I brainwashed myself to be a good little Neo-Nazi.
Those were the days, I took to racial superioirity and an authoritarian brand of Christianity (Think of every Republican/Rightist/Capitalist/Christian stereotype possible: That was me) in grand style. At some point, however, I started to notice that there were problems in my grand Aryan-dominated universe.
Yes, minorites are mostly stupid, ignorant, untrustworthy, immoral, and ugly (I haven't felt differently about that since Middle School), but white people are also mostly stupid, ignorant, untrustworthy, immoral, and ugly (How I managed to avoid noticing this until High School, I will never understand).
At around the end of High School, I abandoned Neo-Nazism, traded in my membership as part of the human race, and became something like a Libertarian(US), my current political party.
I don't trust other people to decide anything about my life (hence small government, individualism) and don't care enough about them to support them (thus, no government welfare programs). Further, since it is almost impossible to see your own flaws, odds are, I am not competent enough to lead or handle someone else's affairs.

I used to be a something like a neo con. My mom still is a neo con. I think she has burned the occasional Harry Potter book. After I lost my faith a become much more libertarian. Since the neo cons so often refer to themselves as conservitives I'll refer to myself as a member of the left

HAHAHAHA!!!! LMAO.... wow that last sentance cracked me up... but i would definately have to agree with you on that subject. I think most of us have faced a situation very similar to that of yours. I know i have.
Just out of curiousity... what's your views on Welfare?...

-The Armed Republic of RedNeckAmerica:sniper:


I had to work 2 jobs(a FT sales job in a crappy cube farm and then 20 hrs a week as a bouncer in the evenings) and could barely pay my bills at the end of the month. One day I found myself in a grocery store trying to decide how much soup I should buy. If I bought enough to eat one meal a day, I wouldn't have enough gas to get to my 2 jobs.
I opened my wallet (to see if I had maybe miscounted my money or possibly a fairy had put some more in there) and saw my pay stub from my last check. My eyes were drawn to the income tax withheld line and I noticed that if the government hadn't taken my money away from me before I had a chance to get my hands on it, I wouldn't be having this pathetic debate with myself in the soup aisle.
That's when I really started to pay more attention to politics. And just in case anyone was wondering, I stole the soup.

Not standing. Playing. :)
Now now, when you play in the mud you use both hands. And feet. and torso. and head. and their heads. and...

When I was growing up I always had Conservative religious friends. Even though I was young and the idea of homosexuals, abortion, and all that wasn't even in my train of thought at the time, I always thought disliking or being against those things was morally wrong, but since all of my friends were against these things, it kind of made me hate them. In my early teens I started to get involved in politics and basically listened to my mom's point of view in the matter since I wasn't familiar with politics yet.

After about 15, I started to drift in my own direction. I'm socially liberal, and economically moderate. I'm a registered Independent, because I believe Democrats and Republicans alike are evil, and I don't choose the better of both evils (which in my opinion is the Democrats.)

Where to begin?

Lyndon Johnson Jane Fonda Timothy Leary
The Black Panthers Dan Rather Jesse Jackson
Robert Byrd Ted Kennedy Jimmy Carter
Barbra Boxer Maxine Waters Barbra Lee
Jesse Jackson Jr Luis Farakahan Barbra Striesand
Nancy Pelosi George Soros Kathleen Soliah
Stanley Kohen Bill Clinton Hillary Clinton
Ron Kuby Katie Couric Ted Turner
Martin Sheen Phil Donahue Leslie Cagen
Tom Hayden Lynn Woosley Ruth Ginsburg
Harold Ickles Joycelyn Elders N.O.W.
ACLU

Oh hell, I could fill volumes with the people that contributed greatly to my belief that I have no desire to be associated with anything claiming to be liberal or left in the US. Every time I have considered giving them some consideration over the past 30 years they spawn another lunatic that makes them look even more stupid than the one before them. Almost like a competition to see who can trash the Democratic party the fastest.

Now now, when you play in the mud you use both hands. And feet. and torso. and head. and their heads. and...

Indeed. :)

Now to the topic:

I don't consider myself either left or right, nor do I care on which side I fall on. I support the death penalty and gun ownership rights. I support abortion rights and separation of church and state. I consider civil liberties to be the single most valuable thing Americans possess and it sickens me how quickly people will give them away.

To be honest, I wouldn't dignify either of the two main political parties or most of the minor ones with my endorsement. Most Americans are WAY too party-blinded for their own good.

Just before I say this I'm in the UK.

Okay I was brought up by revolutionary socialists (bolchivist trotskyists) and I've moved lefter (if thats possible).

However I'm still a party member (SWP (Socialist Workers Party for those not in the know)) and I am an internationalist (so I support links with other parties who are in the same area abroad) so at the moment I have few problems with the party but if/when (depending on your point of view) there was a revolution we'd differ considerably over how to do things.

I'm also not so sure about the whole left coalition (RESPECT) and i'm not a great fan of George Galloway (though I support him against those that attack him from the right menchavik appeaser that he is) but its a better option then any of the other parties standing for election (hence my membership (though i'm not much of an activist for RESPECT)).


To the US people
I always find it funny when you call the Democrats left wing. From a british point of view your main choice of government seems to range from extreme right wing (republicans) to mild left leaning (nader) with the democrats somewhere in the middle.

i'll draw a text diagram.
_____________ Republicans
______________ Democrats
_____________ Nader

with extreme right wing on the left and left leaning on the right (yeah I know I possibly should have done it the other way round but i've done it now)


if we add in british parties to this to give a picture.

_____________ Republicans
______________ Democrats
_____________ Nader
________ BNP
___________ Veritas/ukip
___________ Conservatives
___________________________ Labour
________________________________ Liberal democrats (evil)
_________________________________ plaid cymru
______________ SNP
_______________________ SSP
_______________________Respect

BNP the british nationalist party (poorly concealed nazis)
Veritas/ukip right wing isolationist (from europe closer to america) think of a rambling racist old man and you got these people.
Conservative party The traditional right wing party (though ironically some of its policies are left of labour (trad left wing party)
Labour the traditional left wing party, unfortunently the leadership have moved considerably rightwards (to neoliberaldom)
Liberal democrats can be left or right (i.e. the membership) but when they have any kind of power they are right.
Plaid cymru this is a welsh nationalist party and that is what unites them rather then other political ideals (basicly some of them are left and some are right but they are all nationalists) however consistantly against the war in iraq so at the moment they are as a party left leaning.
SNP also nicknamed the tarten tories, basically right wing scotish nationalists though don't get confused with the BNP (very important SNP=right wing not nazi)
SSP Scotish socialist party set up prior to the founding of respect and is generally a slightly more left wing organisation (so while it occupies the same ground as respect its midpoint is to the left)
RESPECT a coalition left wing party containing muslim groups, ex labour/liberal democrat members, socialists and a large number of people who are just individuals which it appeals to, there are left wing and right wings (socialists on the left, ex labour/liberal on the right (generally) with everyone else somewhere in the middle)

When I was little, President Nixon touched me in a private place....

When I was little, President Nixon touched me in a private place....

that explains the gaps in the tapes

When I was little, President Nixon touched me in a private place....

YAY! :D

I mean...

GASP! :eek:

I wasn't really that interested in politics before I turned 16, although my parents were old school, working class yorkshire socialists. I started to really get into it when studying Sociology at A level - it really opened my eyes. Especially the subject of education and how people certainly don't have equality of opportunity - a lot of it is dependent on what school you are sent to, what kind of home life you have, whether your parents have "Cultural capital" or not.

I'm sure people will use this as an example of "The damn left wing education system", but it was hardly all left wingers in the class by the end.

I have a friend though that is currently just getting into politics at 18. He used to be really right wing, and I used to constantly have arguments with him. Used to be really snobby, pretty racist and constantly moan about PC and welfare.

Now he's taking a course in politics, there's a dramatic change. He keeps going on about how big buisnesses are so greedy and only seem to care about making more and more money for the owners, not about paying all their employees more and treating them with respect. That, and one of the right wingers in his class is a spoiled little daddies boy with a brand new car, and all he seems to moan on about is immigration and "lazy poor" when he hasn't done a days work in his life. He took the political compass test and he got an even more left wing score than me O.o

i've always wondered about that phrase

because it could be somewhere on your body.....

or he touched you in a cupboard....

I'm not american, I'm french ;)

Well, I come from a leftish family. My parents, since I'm born, always teached me to be nice, full of compassion, to help the one needs, and the values of sharing and cooperation.

As a preteen/teen, I ended up revolted against the injustice of the world, against the wars (my first political action was demonstrating against Gulf War I when I was 10 :p). That was first a mostly sentimental action, closer to humanism and charity then to "plotitics".

Than, I grew up, and I began more rational. I did scientific studies, then computer science studies (and well, for a few years, that took me most of time). Meanwhile, I became more and more interested in history, economics, ... and the sheer insanity of capitalism became clear for me. So I finally found the way to connect my "emotional" struggle against poverty, sufferings, wars, ... with my scientifical brain, and I became a communist :)

During the electoral campaign of 2004, during which the PCF (french communist party) opened its lists to actors of the social movement (unionists, anti-racist activists, peace activists, human right activists, ...), I finally decied to join them. So now I'm a active member of a communist party :)

That said, I wouldn't say I was "brainwashed" by my parents. What they mostly do was to give me another view on events, a way to counter the brainwashing of mainstream media. Even with my leftish parents, I feel more brainwashed to believe in the "invisible hand" and the miracles of competition than anything else. But hopefully, both my scientific rational part and my humanist emotional part are able to resist to it ;)

Abnormal behaviour from certain elements of the community.http://70.85.81.229/3630/189/emo/shiftyeyes.gif

i was raised a bit of a lefty - my parents hated thatcher and that's certainly rubbed off on me. her policies affected them badly and so they did our family and me. but the turning point was when i was in Winchester (posh conservative town about 20 miles from here where we used to live) and i was walking past a beggar looking utterly dejected - he wasn't even actively 'begging' really - and this woman in a massive fur coat, tons of jewelery, posh looking clothes, comes walking past the other way at the same time as me and literally shouts at the poor tramp "get a job or get off my street!"
i remember my blood boiling, fists clenching and feeling such hatred toward her at that time (i was about 14 so probably all hormoned-up anyway)... i felt compassion for the poor guy obviously "down on his luck" and looking damn depressed (wouldn't you be?) and there was this woman with immaculate hair and a fur coat, carrying shopping bags at 2 in the afternoon on a work day (no i can't remember why i wasn't in school) so quite likely a housewife and not working herself, shouting at this poor guy - it was like an assault on my own empathy and i couldn't believe someone would feel that way towards someone in that situation, let alone say anything like that.

and thats where i turned from being lefty to being a right-hating (soon to be) commie. since then i've just gotten more idealistic and thought about the issues more, studied politics and economics at uni, and just got sickened at inequality in the world, and played devils advocate and debated with/against my own ideas till i reached where i am today

"What turned you Left/right?"

I realize that some on here are going to jump all over this, but here goes anyway ...

I grew up with a very authoritarian father and a religious conservative step-mother, after having lived with my grandparents ( who, as grandparents will, spoiled me rotten ) until the age of 12. I had major problems dealing with the hypocrasy I saw in people who claimed to love God, but retained a love of family and country.

I'm a product of that rather unusual combination of learning experiences. I do my utmost to respect everyone, regardless, and consider myself very pro-America. The abuse heaped on soldiers during and after Vietnam only served to harden both aspects.

This is why I call myself a CENTRIST, and am registered as an independent.

I'm not american, I'm french ;)

Well, I come from a leftish family. My parents, since I'm born, always teached me to be nice, full of compassion, to help the one needs, and the values of sharing and cooperation.

As a preteen/teen, I ended up revolted against the injustice of the world, against the wars (my first political action was demonstrating against Gulf War I when I was 10 :p). That was first a mostly sentimental action, closer to humanism and charity then to "plotitics".

Than, I grew up, and I began more rational. I did scientific studies, then computer science studies (and well, for a few years, that took me most of time). Meanwhile, I became more and more interested in history, economics, ... and the sheer insanity of capitalism became clear for me. So I finally found the way to connect my "emotional" struggle against poverty, sufferings, wars, ... with my scientifical brain, and I became a communist :)

During the electoral campaign of 2004, during which the PCF (french communist party) opened its lists to actors of the social movement (unionists, anti-racist activists, peace activists, human right activists, ...), I finally decied to join them. So now I'm a active member of a communist party :)

That said, I wouldn't say I was "brainwashed" by my parents. What they mostly do was to give me another view on events, a way to counter the brainwashing of mainstream media. Even with my leftish parents, I feel more brainwashed to believe in the "invisible hand" and the miracles of competition than anything else. But hopefully, both my scientific rational part and my humanist emotional part are able to resist to it ;)
A French Communist? *zips mouth shut*

My dad is a communist/socialist, and my mum is a conservative, although she seems to nip over into the Lib Dem territory from time to time.

I've always made sure that I was not brainwashed, and thus I used my own eyes and ears to look out on the world. I've always had an interest in current affairs.

People could describe me as a left winger, but whilst I loathe Right-wing ideology, I have found myself in at times fierce debate with my dad over aspects of communism. My dad believes the state can provide for the people if it was socialist/communist, whereas I believe that a state can be corrupted whether right wing or left wing in design because of human nature, and thus become monstrous because of the power it wields through state governance, and become ruler over all.

I believe in a smaller, communal, equal, mutual way of life that can be self managed by all rather than submitting oneself to rule by a central big power of governance whether Capitalist or socialist.

In such a sense, I could be described as a Anarcho-Communist, Perhaps this comes from my despisement of authority because of the people I've seen use it over the years in my life on a personal and international scale.

Greed of Capitalism corrupting governments, and betrayal of revolutions corrupting socialism, therefore not making it so.

Capitalism is not a good idea in the first place, but while socialism/communism is, the centralisation of power it brings can prove tempting to dubious power hungry bastards and then not be socialist, betraying the people.

But the centralisation of power capitalism brings is tempting to power hungry bastards in the first place, as that's the whole idea of capitalism, to bugger the people for profit.

So while socialism is a good idea, I sadly reject it for it's centralisation of power, that can all too easily be corrupted.

What events in your life made you decide on your political stances? Why did you decide to go left?

Education.

Education.
As opposed to learning to think for yourself? :D

Education.
Translation = Brainwashed by professor.

As opposed to learning to think for yourself? :D

Uhm, education gives you facts and opinions. How you interpret those facts and opinions is your own affair, and enables you a greater ability to think for yourself than if you knew nothing. You need input to be able to make judgements on things.

What is it with you and education? Do you wish everyone revelled in igorance and that damn evil academia abolished?

Honestly. I remeber hearing this stuff about an educated man who decided to talk to people who hadn't recieved a jot of education in London during the industrial age. What he found out was very interesting - these cockneys believed things like you could reach the moon if they climbed high enough, and that you could walk from London to Naples (although it would take a long time - could be more than 100 miles!). Would you praise these people as free thinkers?

I am neither I hate politics

As opposed to learning to think for yourself? :D

Waddya think "Education" means? :D

Translation = Brainwashed by professor.

Bitter about college? Or is it scared?

i was raised a bit of a lefty - my parents hated thatcher and that's certainly rubbed off on me. her policies affected them badly and so they did our family and me. but the turning point was when i was in Winchester (posh conservative town about 20 miles from here where we used to live) and i was walking past a beggar looking utterly dejected - he wasn't even actively 'begging' really - and this woman in a massive fur coat, tons of jewelery, posh looking clothes, comes walking past the other way at the same time as me and literally shouts at the poor tramp "get a job or get off my street!"
i remember my blood boiling, fists clenching and feeling such hatred toward her at that time (i was about 14 so probably all hormoned-up anyway)... i felt compassion for the poor guy obviously "down on his luck" and looking damn depressed (wouldn't you be?) and there was this woman with immaculate hair and a fur coat, carrying shopping bags at 2 in the afternoon on a work day (no i can't remember why i wasn't in school) so quite likely a housewife and not working herself, shouting at this poor guy - it was like an assault on my own empathy and i couldn't believe someone would feel that way towards someone in that situation, let alone say anything like that.

and thats where i turned from being lefty to being a right-hating (soon to be) commie. since then i've just gotten more idealistic and thought about the issues more, studied politics and economics at uni, and just got sickened at inequality in the world, and played devils advocate and debated with/against my own ideas till i reached where i am today
Ah, but did you give the poor guy any money?

Waddya think "Education" means? :D
Depends upon where you get it and what you do with it after you've got it. :)

Ah, but did you give the poor guy any money?
i was 14 and i don't think so :(
though i don't remember that clearly

but i know she didn't

I am neither I hate politics

Boy, are you in the wrong place.

Uhm, education gives you facts and opinions. How you interpret those facts and opinions is your own affair, and enables you a greater ability to think for yourself than if you knew nothing. You need input to be able to make judgements on things.

What is it with you and education? Do you wish everyone revelled in igorance and that damn evil academia abolished?

Would you praise these people as free thinkers?
Careful. Your distain for those with fewer opportunities is showing. :)

I have two undergraduate degrees and a Masters ( and will resume my work on a Ph.D. if my cancer doesn't get me first ), so alledging that I am somehow "against education" is preposterous. Unfortunately, a considerable amount of what passes for "education" these days is little more than teaching prejudice under the guise of "educating" people. Any education worth its cost will teach people not only "facts and opinions," but how to think and reason.

i was 14 and i don't think so :(
though i don't remember that clearly

but i know she didn't
There was a time when I wouldn't give anything to beggers, preferring to think that they would only spend it on drugs or alcohol. Then I realized that what they did with the money wasn't the most important thing. My motivation in giving them money was of equal, if not more importance. Giving to those whose lives have been less than perfect is important to your own humanity and indicates a degree of respect toward them as fellow human beings. Motivation and respect are important, far moreso than politics.

Boy, are you in the wrong place.
Heh! No shit! :D

Careful. Your distain for those with fewer opportunities is showing. :)

I have two undergraduate degrees and a Masters ( and will resume my work on a Ph.D. if my cancer doesn't get me first ), so alledging that I am somehow "against education" is preposterous. Unfortunately, a considerable amount of what passes for "education" these days is little more than teaching prejudice under the guise of "educating" people. Any education worth its cost will teach people not only "facts and opinions," but how to think and reason.

Exactly what most education is.

What prejudice do you think is being taught in "a considerable amount" of our educational system? I'm honestly curious.

Hating politics is no bad thing. It's an outdated system which can serve no purpose but to slow social evolution. Ever since the end of the cold war there are no longer extremes of left and right in political ideals, only varying degrees of Nu Conservatism. The idea that the world can still be run from the top down is a relic from the feudal era when population average per square mile was still under the hundred and government was on a scale those small groups could understand.

This leads me to the conclusion that the world should, in fact, be run by internet bloggers and forumites. (No reason for this last comment, it would just be cool if it was.;))

Exactly what most education is.

What prejudice do you think is being taught in "a considerable amount" of our educational system? I'm honestly curious.
I was referring primarily to the "liberal arts." ( Curious phrase, that ) Much of the pablum which passes for "education" in that benighted realm of academia is based upon assumptions which bear little or no resemblance to reality, probably because many who presume to teach in that milieu have little or no experience in the real world.

I have often thought that requiring professors, particularly in the "liberal arts" to have worked and lived in the same world with the rest of us before being hired to instruct would have a highly salutory effect on their efforts.

Careful. Your distain for those with fewer opportunities is showing. :)

I have two undergraduate degrees and a Masters ( and will resume my work on a Ph.D. if my cancer doesn't get me first ), so alledging that I am somehow "against education" is preposterous. Unfortunately, a considerable amount of what passes for "education" these days is little more than teaching prejudice under the guise of "educating" people. Any education worth its cost will teach people not only "facts and opinions," but how to think and reason.

I hardly have distain for those with fewer opportunities. I have great pity for them, and I think it is very unjust how people get given different qualities of education purely dependant on how much their parents earn. I've always supported equality of opportunity, and that is why I think education is important for everyone.

I congratulate you on your academic achievements, but I am very sceptical that this "liberal bias" in education exists in the US, and if it does then don't generalise that it happens all over - on the whole education ENABLES free thinking, doesn't hinder it. There was certainly no left wing bias in my sociology class. Some people could never work out where our teacher stood, because he would always play devils advocate - one day he'd be arguing from a Marxist point of view, another he'd be arguing from a New Right point of view. He was actually left wing, but he treated everyone equally and called me "Red Peter" as a joke. My philosophy teacher was a private school tory but he didn't personally effect my political persuasions either, even if I preferred philosophy as a subject. When doing political philosophy the class had a few debates and of course the teacher made fun of left wing arguments, but in a light hearted way - he respected everyones view points, and taught the arguements and central tenets of Liberalism, Socialism, Conservatism and Anarcism as the syllabus required.

I really can't imagine it being much worse in the US, and if it is i'd bet it only applied to a tiny minority of professors.

I was referring primarily to the "liberal arts." ( Curious phrase, that ) Much of the pablum which passes for "education" in that benighted realm of academia is based upon assumptions which bear little or no resemblance to reality, probably because many who presume to teach in that milieu have little or no experience in the real world.

I have often thought that requiring professors, particularly in the "liberal arts" to have worked and lived in the same world with the rest of us before being hired to instruct would have a highly salutory effect on their efforts.

Mmmm. My degrees other than my J.D. are in the "liberal arts." I disagree with your assertions. Most profs I knew were well informed about their subject matter. But such vague generalizations are untestable.

I still think you are being coy about what prejudice you think is being taught (left-wing?) and what subjects in particular.

English and philosophy, for example, are subjects in which professors tend to have far more experience than the "rest of us."

First off: I'm not American.

I don't think there was any one defining moment that made me "turn to the left", it's just how I am. I grew up in a fairly conservative, middle-class, family, so for a while I actually thought "hey, maybe me being left is just a "revolt" thing that will pass." But, luckily, it didn't. My "initiation" into the realm of politics was a lot like this:
As a preteen/teen, I ended up revolted against the injustice of the world, against the wars (my first political action was demonstrating against Gulf War I when I was 10 :p). That was first a mostly sentimental action, closer to humanism and charity then to "plotitics".Lots of protest marches organized by the students of my school, against wars or environmental pollution.
When I could vote for the first time, I voted for the Green party, and have done so ever since. Back then, the Greens were the party of choice for most young people, voting conservative made you at at least somewhat suspect. Sadly, these days, hardly any of the first-time voters seem to even remember the Greens.

What "makes" me left is nothing I can put into words, really. It's really just a gut-feeling. Like, as much as I try to, I am mostly not able to fathom how anybody can possibly not be left-leaning - to me, it seems the obvious, and the only, choice.

And there's few things I hate more than the stupid saying
"If you're not a communist at 20, you have no heart.
If you're still a communist at 40, you have no brains."

Though I'm not a communist (and not 40 :eek: :p) I hate the condescending mockery of this almost as much as I hate the hypocrisy.

I was raised in a lefty family (not in the US) so I became communist when I started to think by my own, even although my parents were not. I've always thought nobody can be really free without something to eat, a roof and some education. I still think it, although I'm no more communist, 'cause I realized it was a nice tale, but a tale, in whose name horrid things have been made. I'm still leftist but in a critic way, I'm not going to agree with nobody just because is "one of mines". Thinks are never as easy as I used to think when I was 15 but freedom has to be balanced with solidarity, even by law, so I imagine that's quite tipically european, and I'm proud of it.
I prefer my taxes going to poor people, even if there are abuses than to military or lower taxes.

We shall overcome!

Mmmm. My degrees other than my J.D. are in the "liberal arts." I disagree with your assertions. Most profs I knew were well informed about their subject matter. But such vague generalizations are untestable.

I still think you are being coy about what prejudice you think is being taught (left-wing?) and what subjects in particular.

English and philosophy, for example, are subjects in which professors tend to have far more experience than the "rest of us."
Don't you think that even in subjects such as English and philosophy those who presume to teach should have experience in the real "rough and tumble" to which most of us are subjected?

What "makes" me left is nothing I can put into words, really. It's really just a gut-feeling. Like, as much as I try to, I am mostly not able to fathom how anybody can possibly not be left-leaning - to me, it seems the obvious, and the only, choice.
So the choice to you is "obvious" because you have a "gut-feeling" that it should be?? :confused:

Don't you think that even in subjects such as English and philosophy those who presume to teach should have experience in the real "rough and tumble" to which most of us are subjected?

You just want an excuse to beat up professors :p

"You do understand...you NEED this experience of rough and tumble to be able to teach objectively" *Whack, bang, whallop, whimper of pain*

Don't you think that even in subjects such as English and philosophy those who presume to teach should have experience in the real "rough and tumble" to which most of us are subjected?

Not necessarily.

And you've had more "rough and tumble" than most of us.

But I think you underestimate how much real living an academic usually has done and is doing.

Not necessarily.

And you've had more "rough and tumble" than most of us.

But I think you underestimate how much real living an academic usually has done and is doing.
That's the point I was going to make. There are people in every profession, including academia, who are cloistered throughout their lives, but my experience as an academic (one who lived in the rough and tumble before getting into academia) is that most of my students, even those with money, are experiencing some of the rough and tumble of life. They're working some sort of job, even if it's not paying all the bills, and they're dealing with the stresses of living away from home. Most of them don't have the experience I did as an undergrad--working two or three jobs and going through a divorce--but they're not cloistered either.

...There was certainly no left wing bias in my sociology class. Some people could never work out where our teacher stood, because he would always play devils advocate - one day he'd be arguing from a Marxist point of view, another he'd be arguing from a New Right point of view. He was actually left wing, but he treated everyone equally and called me "Red Peter" as a joke...I envy you. I've been educated at both of Northern Ireland's universities, and both definitely show bias in their teaching. This is admittedly (and thankfully) considerably less true at Queen's, but at UU - in the case of many lecturers - if you didn't write exactly what they wished to hear in an essay, you did badly. Simple. It was ridiculous. All I asked for was to be marked on how well written, argued and backed-up my argument was, rather than the side it fell down on.

"You do understand...you NEED this experience of rough and tumble to be able to teach objectively" *Whack, bang, whallop, whimper of pain*
Exactly! :D

But I think you underestimate how much real living an academic usually has done and is doing.
Perhaps.

So the choice to you is "obvious" because you have a "gut-feeling" that it should be?? :confused:
Um, yes? Seriously, though, by saying I can't explain why I fall on the left side of pretty much any issue, I pretty much equated what I chose to call "gut-feeling" with being "the obvious and only choice" - to me.
I'm perfectly aware that my gut-feeling won't do anything to convice anybody I'm right; now that would be a really stupid thing to assume.

What I was trying to say is that, while I can argue with someone about how, say, universal health insurance paid by taxes is the right way to go, it'll come to a point where I just can't see how he could possibly disagree.
We could both perfectly lay out our arguments, and we'd still not agree with each other. What's more, his arguments may be as logically sound as any, but I'll still think he's, well, wrong in his conclusions and/or basic assumptions.

That said, though, I'd guess that's pretty much true for everybody; doesn't any conviction - political, religious, moral - come down, at the bottom of a lot of rational and logical reasoning, to what amounts to a "gut-feeling"?

I envy you. I've been educated at both of Northern Ireland's universities, and both definitely show bias in their teaching. This is admittedly (and thankfully) considerably less true at Queen's, but at UU - in the case of many lecturers - if you didn't write exactly what they wished to hear in an essay, you did badly. Simple. It was ridiculous. All I asked for was to be marked on how well written, argued and backed-up my argument was, rather than the side it fell down on.

Really? Wow. I remeber a really tory kid in our class handing in essays arguing about a political issue from his point of view to our left wing teacher and getting the highest marks in the class.

I suppose i'm just not used to the idea of open discrimination based on beliefs in school, because the schools I went to never had any. I used to go to a christian primary school as an atheist, and whilst a couple of the staff picked on me because of it (My headteacher was a complete bitch to me) most of the teachers were fine and didn't force their views on me. Even when we were given tasks like "Draw a picture of what you imagine God to look like" I just drew a picture of some hippy and wrote "I don't believe in God" under it, and was never marked down for it.

Always been sorta left.
Turned more left by the Skinhead Neonazi c*nts who didn't like my Turkish friends.
Turned even more left by my new friends, some of which were antifa.
Turned even more left by various literature, not that I really understood much of it.
Then turned a little more right by doing economics at school.
Then turned back right a lot by getting taken out of that environment and back into the peaceful world of suburban Australia.
Then turned even more right by doing more economics, and ending up in a Business Management/Economics Dual Degree. One could almost call me a centrist now economically (disregarding the woefully inaccurate political compass).

As for my dislike for the American right wing, well, that's a matter of believing in the principles Germany was refounded on, principles that were meant to prevent bad things from happening ever again.

i cannot with any conviction allign myself with any of the political-religous groups allowed to exist in the Corporate states of Opression (aka USA). My beliefs are storgly focused on the concept that the olny way to move forward as a species, into anything other then our own distruction, is to embrace DMT and its other psychoactive derivitaves, exploreing the mind, and expanding our souls to be responcibily able to take the riegns of the engines of technology that we have created in our mad rush twards supposed 'advancement' or 'evolution'....i suppose i always had a bit of an incling twards this position, growing up with a right wing raceist bigot asshole for a father, but then i found reading (not widely done in that household between watching news and sports (EWWWW!!!)), first cracks of light came in the form of huxley's "The Doors Of Perception" and from there i was off, leary, terrance mckenna...anything about the psychadelic experence i could find...then at 14 i found LSD...my first guide...with the background of my readings i had a base from which to understand the experence...seen a glimpse of how much more we could become, how much more evolution of the mind has been banned by law....from there i found a much more vocal teacher...the mushroom...she spoke to me through the void...layed out more and more of the pattern of the possible...eventually leading me to psychadelic goa trance music....a frequency, pattern, rythm capable of taking one to simular places....for some much further...but, the great leap, the grand experence that forever altered my view of reality...was DMT....instantly letting me know there was life after death, other entities on other dimentions, a greater goal for humankind then simply trying not to wipe ourselves off the face of the earth while dominateing each other like a bunch of monkeys....had a wonderfull existance in that real with like minded individuals untill various forces (very possibly government related) flooded the ccity with methamphedamine....one of the great destroyers...quickly the entirety of our reality had been eroded away from the edges, by theives, by tyrants, poleice, and once more the question of "Is this right...for the whole of humanty as one being" became repaced with a question of "Can this be gotten away with to survive" ...

all in all the truth i have seen is that there is plenty for all on this planet if each would quit trying to be a seperate empire, to be better or richer then those around us, but to realise thatwhat we do to each other we do to ourselves, as cheesy or cliched as it sounds, we are all one, and untill that point can be realised by all, we will contenue to toil in wars and domination of one another... and this is why i would support the doseing of the entire world with DMT...most if not all realiseing virtually instantly the nature of reality... sure it might seem fanciful, of idelic utopian idocy...but this is what i believe...this is my driving force....
so that is why i dont really allign with any of the parties currently allowed within the Corporate States of Opression....or have i overlooked a pro-psychadelic party? (btw: please dont bother ranting about spelling or context errors...it is quite late and i just dont see the point :)

Sorry to sound condescending, but, in my experience, you'll grow out of this stage.

(Or permanently damage yourself).

It seems that this ideology of lumping all drugs into this "eventually harmfull" catagory is a major part of the problem...DMT derivitaves have been used regularly by several south american societies for thousands of years without 'damage' of corse if how you define damage is a mental state that drives one to want to tare down the current oppressive system, then yes, i am damaged....
if 'damaged' is a belief in absolute freedom of the individual from government opression, then yes, i am 'damaged', if careing for those around you as though they are yourself is damaged, then yes i am damaged....
btw: i am 30, dunno how much growing out of nething i got left....

It seems that this ideology of lumping all drugs into this "eventually harmfull" catagory is a major part of the problem...DMT derivitaves have been used regularly by several south american societies for thousands of years without 'damage' of corse if how you define damage is a mental state that drives one to want to tare down the current oppressive system, then yes, i am damaged....
if 'damaged' is a belief in absolute freedom of the individual from government opression, then yes, i am 'damaged', if careing for those around you as though they are yourself is damaged, then yes i am damaged....
btw: i am 30, dunno how much growing out of nething i got left....

I was mostly kiddding you. I understand where you are coming from.

But, for the record, at 30 you do still have a long ways to go. I still do at 36.

EDIT: It is my experience that most people either stop or moderate their drug use before they get middle-aged or they are rather out of it (and/or actually damaged -- those you don't want to know).

Most people just want to live the way they want, without interference. A few people want to make other people live that way too. The latter are the enemy, no matter what party they hail from. I used to want to round them all up and frog-march them off a cliff. Now I just want to keep them out of office, and out of my earshot.

Most people who preach and lecture about a political topic, are people who have never been on the receiving end of that policy themselves. Victims' advocates are rarely victims. If you have never actually been in the military, ranting about the military just makes you look ignorant. Same with being black, a woman, a Bosnian refugee, etc. Sorry, but that's the truth. The true activist ACTS.

Stereotypes become stereotypes because too many people fit them. Talk will never change stereotypes. Only personal experience can do that.

Each side of a political argument always has a legitimate point that deserves acknowledgement. Flaming the "enemy" may make you feel all warm and self-righteous on the inside, but it doesn't get you what you actually want. Want to be respected? Act respectable.

People who embrace the ideals of true freedom for all, act instead of rant, are commited to keeping it real in spite of any stereotypes, and conduct their arguments with respect and honor will always get my vote. Always.

Most people just want to live the way they want, without interference. A few people want to make other people live that way too. The latter are the enemy, no matter what party they hail from. I used to want to round them all up and frog-march them off a cliff. Now I just want to keep them out of office, and out of my earshot.

Most people who preach and lecture about a political topic, are people who have never been on the receiving end of that policy themselves. Victims' advocates are rarely victims. If you have never actually been in the military, ranting about the military just makes you look ignorant. Same with being black, a woman, a Bosnian refugee, etc. Sorry, but that's the truth. The true activist ACTS.

Stereotypes become stereotypes because too many people fit them. Talk will never change stereotypes. Only personal experience can do that.

Each side of a political argument always has a legitimate point that deserves acknowledgement. Flaming the "enemy" may make you feel all warm and self-righteous on the inside, but it doesn't get you what you actually want. Want to be respected? Act respectable.

People who embrace the ideals of true freedom for all, act instead of rant, are commited to keeping it real in spite of any stereotypes, and conduct their arguments with respect and honor will always get my vote. Always.


I agree with almost everything you said, except the second paragraph particularly the bolded part. It just ain't so.

Um, yes? Seriously, though, by saying I can't explain why I fall on the left side of pretty much any issue, I pretty much equated what I chose to call "gut-feeling" with being "the obvious and only choice" - to me.
I'm perfectly aware that my gut-feeling won't do anything to convice anybody I'm right; now that would be a really stupid thing to assume.

What I was trying to say is that, while I can argue with someone about how, say, universal health insurance paid by taxes is the right way to go, it'll come to a point where I just can't see how he could possibly disagree.
We could both perfectly lay out our arguments, and we'd still not agree with each other. What's more, his arguments may be as logically sound as any, but I'll still think he's, well, wrong in his conclusions and/or basic assumptions.

That said, though, I'd guess that's pretty much true for everybody; doesn't any conviction - political, religious, moral - come down, at the bottom of a lot of rational and logical reasoning, to what amounts to a "gut-feeling"?
Interesting.

If I understand what you're saying here, it has to do with the old emotions vs. reason dichotomy. It's true that most people's beliefs and value systems have an emotional base, most of which probably derives from early experiences primarily from parents ( either in acceptance of, or in reaction to ).

Quite a surprising number of people ( though still a minority, IMHO ) are able at some point to examine their previously unexamined beliefs in light of reason and decide which to keep and which to discard. It's as I'm fond of saying about religion: the unexamined faith is actually no faith at all.

I agree with almost everything you said, except the second paragraph particularly the bolded part. It just ain't so.

That is my personal experience. I certainly respect yours. :)

It seems that this ideology of lumping all drugs into this "eventually harmfull" catagory is a major part of the problem...DMT derivitaves have been used regularly by several south american societies for thousands of years without 'damage' of corse if how you define damage is a mental state that drives one to want to tare down the current oppressive system, then yes, i am damaged....
if 'damaged' is a belief in absolute freedom of the individual from government opression, then yes, i am 'damaged', if careing for those around you as though they are yourself is damaged, then yes i am damaged....
btw: i am 30, dunno how much growing out of nething i got left....
Drugs are a trap. They divorce you from any concept of "shared reality" to the point that eventually you are unable to accept the validity of the concept.

Translation = Brainwashed by professor.

If that's what you think education means, then I pity you your education.

My education began at birth, not in college.

Interesting.

If I understand what you're saying here, it has to do with the old emotions vs. reason dichotomy. It's true that most people's beliefs and value systems have an emotional base, most of which probably derives from early experiences primarily from parents ( either in acceptance of, or in reaction to ).

Quite a surprising number of people ( though still a minority, IMHO ) are able at some point to examine their previously unexamined beliefs in light of reason and decide which to keep and which to discard. It's as I'm fond of saying about religion: the unexamined faith is actually no faith at all.

True. I got thinking about stuff like this a while ago, whilst on shrooms interestingly enough, and figured that we all make connections in our brains about what is good and what is bad when it comes to politics and just stays that way. For example, because of the way my brain is structured and the connections between ideas in my head, I don't think I could ever accept that it is better for a rich person to earn far far more money than he will ever need and for children of a poor family to grow up without healthcare, education and shelter than for the rich person to earn a little less and for everyone to have an opportunity in life. I could possibly imagine when I am older and a lot more cynical become a compassionate conservative, though that is unlikely, but I am just disgusted at the idea of living in a liberatarian society. It just...ugh.

Used to be left for my parents were.
All against oppression and all that.

Then turned right when I realised that most folks are FOR oppression - provided that someone else is oppressed, not them. They just don't say it that way.

Then turned Libertarian after I figured that, considering what humanity is, I prefer to have as little do do with it ( humanity ) as possible - and to be safe from the temptation to micromanage other folks.

Merrily supported Kerry. After Dubya, just about anything else is worth a shot!

That is my personal experience. I certainly respect yours. :)

I respect your experience, but I don't know what it is. :)

My mother is a victim's advocate, so I know a lot of them. It has always bugged me sometimes that they tended to be too passionate and lack perspective because they were victims. For example, they want to impinge on defendant's rights when they should realize those rights are for the benefit of all of us. Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox.;)

What turned me "left" is the abundance of moralistic laws in the world. Seeing women forced to wear viels, being told its wrong of me to love more then one person at once, being told that if your poor/hard up for money, its 100% your fault (it can be partly your fault sometimes, but it can be societys fault at other times even tho I m not poor) and things like this. I turned very left wing. But then I seen things that need to be done to change things like that, and deicded that tranditional left is not the best either. So I guess you would have to call me sovietist in a sort (except Im not for cracking down on freedoms) in that I would propose hard and fierce enforcement of said laws, but at the same time, (here is the non sovietist part) very open and liberal social policy, with a (back to sovietism) tightly regulated state economy, to prevent one man from having 25,000,000,000 dollars whilst someone else has .25 dollars.

Im from Canada, and a military boy at that, but I still have my own views.

Well, my mother and father are both of the left, but my dad is definitely more left. When he did his army service he was first supposed to do radio service, but they found out he was a trotskyist, so he couldn't do that.

So, of course I was always of the left, but over the years I lmearned more and more about communism and marxism etc. And I thought: damn, there is no freedom in those systems, so the only logical choice was anarchism.

True. I got thinking about stuff like this a while ago, whilst on shrooms interestingly enough, and figured that we all make connections in our brains about what is good and what is bad when it comes to politics and just stays that way. For example, because of the way my brain is structured and the connections between ideas in my head, I don't think I could ever accept that it is better for a rich person to earn far far more money than he will ever need and for children of a poor family to grow up without healthcare, education and shelter than for the rich person to earn a little less and for everyone to have an opportunity in life. I could possibly imagine when I am older and a lot more cynical become a compassionate conservative, though that is unlikely, but I am just disgusted at the idea of living in a liberatarian society. It just...ugh.
Interestingly enough, I came to much the same conclusions years ago, albiet without the "benefit" of mushrooms. :)

Trying to apply "Darwinianism" or "survival of the fittest" to any social construct is actually a form of tyranny. I advocate making the playing field as level as possible, given the overall impact on society. For example: given that many people are motivated by greed, to totally eliminate the possibility of becoming monetarily rich would demotivate huge numbers of people and have an adverse impact on society as a whole. Yet failing to provide opportunity for a quality education so that the children of the less-well-to-do have the opportunity to rise above their family background is tatamount to establishment of a ruling oligarchy. Charting a middle course between these two extremes is a necessary task of governance.

Seek the middle way, Grasshopper! :D

My first experience with personal politics was a deep search into hte history of Anarchy as a political movement. i found Leftist(in that sense I mean Socialism and Communism) to be the Utopian answer all men seek, on paper.

Paper rarely reflects reality very well, the state of the world is proof of that.

But, I loved the concepts put forth by Anarchy, but in the end I realized too, those were equally as idealistic as any real Socialist concepts.

So I started reading up on MY country, on what I was really living under.

I became a self proclaimed constitutionalist(appearently this made me conservative) I was for deep cutting on the fat of the many useless laws imposed by the Judiciary(conservative).

I hated the flagrant spending of tax dollars(conservative).

I was of course religious as I grew to adulthood and left childish things behind(conservative).

However my religion gave me the opinion of the greatness of pluralism(progressive/liberal/idealist), but not relativism(conservative).

I was pro enviorment, ....

Whatever, it took me a lot of years to grow to the stage i am at now at thirty--and I am still changing, I dont think being Left or right or liberal or conservative is a process that ever stops if you are open minded and want the best. I imagine I will shift from one side to the other right up until I take that big dirt nap.

Interestingly enough, I came to much the same conclusions years ago, albiet without the "benefit" of mushrooms. :)

Trying to apply "Darwinianism" or "survival of the fittest" to any social construct is actually a form of tyranny. I advocate making the playing field as level as possible, given the overall impact on society. For example: given that many people are motivated by greed, to totally eliminate the possibility of becoming monetarily rich would demotivate huge numbers of people and have an adverse impact on society as a whole. Yet failing to provide opportunity for a quality education so that the children of the less-well-to-do have the opportunity to rise above their family background is tatamount to establishment of a ruling oligarchy. Charting a middle course between these two extremes is a necessary task of governance.

Seek the middle way, Grasshopper! :D

Now, see Eut. If you'd told us you'd done shrooms, half of them would start believing you could be centrist after all. :D

Now, see Eut. If you'd told us you'd done shrooms, half of them would start believing you could be centrist after all. :D
ROFLMAO! You're really on a roll today, ain't ya! :D

I'm still utterly amazed as to WHY anyone would think that a Government/Church/what have you not should take a hand in righting ( perceived ) social wrongs.

But anyway, that is imho worth a topic of its own.

ROFLMAO! You're really on a roll today, ain't ya! :D

Apparently, if I don't get any sleep, we get along better and I get funnier.

Go figure. :D

I was raised in a slightly religious, slightly conservative house (by UK standards.... so commie apostates by US standards).

At a very early age, I realised I saw people differently to a lot of those around me... I was friends with 'the' Pakistani boy at my school, at age 5... and his religion and skintone were nothing bad to me... despite the fact that many around me seemed to have issues about them. (Indeed, even members of my own immediate family).

By late teens, I was politically fairly conservative, but morally liberal. I had gay friends, for example. (Anyone who has encountered small-town Lincolnshire will see that as something unusual). I had coloured friends... I was friends with the kid from Chechoslovakia... etc.

That was pretty much my compass through school, college, university, and into work...

Then I moved to Bible Belt USA.

I've discovered that, by US standards, I'm not really conservative at all. American politics doesn't satisfy me, and horrifies me with it's corruption... so I consider myself 'non-partisan', in terms of American politics.

American culture is very polarising, though... the constant barrage of capitalism/consumerism is ridiculous... and I find it hard to believe anyone with any empathy could stay right of centre for long...

Interesting.

If I understand what you're saying here, it has to do with the old emotions vs. reason dichotomy. It's true that most people's beliefs and value systems have an emotional base, most of which probably derives from early experiences primarily from parents ( either in acceptance of, or in reaction to ).

Quite a surprising number of people ( though still a minority, IMHO ) are able at some point to examine their previously unexamined beliefs in light of reason and decide which to keep and which to discard. It's as I'm fond of saying about religion: the unexamined faith is actually no faith at all.

I am having a hard time expressing myself here; in English, to boot. But this is pretty much it:It's true that most people's beliefs and value systems have an emotional base...

But having said that, I certainly don't think this precludes being able to examine "previously unexamined beliefs in light of reason and decide which to keep and which to discard". I'd hope this were a given, no matter what your basic, core beliefs are.


To illustrate what I'm trying to say, let's take capital punishment (yeah, I was hoping to come up with a less inflammatory subject, but this one kind of offered itself).

Now, if we go beyond the things one can actually reasonably argue about, like the "deterrent effect", the cost factor, etc. (at least until somebody brings up all the studies debunking the arguments of the proponents and wins :D ;)), what it will boil down to is that I will say "It's just not right. Period. Even the most vile criminal is still a human being, and it's not right for us to say he should die and kill him. That's all the argument I've left - not very logically thought through, huh? I just know in my guts that this is the wrong thing to do".
And somebody who supports the death penalty might say "What it boils down to is that this guy took a life, so he deserves to die as well. I couldn't care less about the bible and 'eye for an eye', it's obvious to me as it is. I just know in my guts that this is the right thing to do."



Aah, all my talk about "gut feelings" is unsophisticatedly dragging this thread down. I'll shut up now.

I respect your experience, but I don't know what it is. :)

Two people very close to me are very active in politics. One is a rabid Republican, and is an officer in the local party. The other is a rabid Democrat, and is always involved in one movement or another. I get lots of time with politicians. It's really interesting to watch them "play the game" with one another.

Usually, when someone raises his voice, it's because he or she isn't feeling validated and heard. When you get a bunch of politicians together, the man who yells the loudest about an issue is doing so because he's compensating, and it's usually for lack of personal experience or a feeling of lack of power.

An example: I know more men who screech and wail about abortion than women, even though they will never have to make that decision themselves. Also, the women who do see it in black and white terms are almost always women who have never been faced with that decision themselves. Those with real personal experience usually either go out and act to change things, or feel the weight of that decision enough to know it's not a simple issue and shouldn't be handled with a simple solution. What they don't do is lecture and bitch about what "should" theoretically be. At least not without backing it up with action of their own.

That's my experience.

My mother is a victim's advocate, so I know a lot of them. It has always bugged me sometimes that they tended to be too passionate and lack perspective because they were victims. For example, they want to impinge on defendant's rights when they should realize those rights are for the benefit of all of us. Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox.;)

Gotcha. Well, politicians are a different breed, as anyone can see. Kudos to your mom for taking action. :D

I am having a hard time expressing myself here; in English, to boot. But this is pretty much it:

But having said that, I certainly don't think this precludes being able to examine "previously unexamined beliefs in light of reason and decide which to keep and which to discard". I'd hope this were a given, no matter what your basic, core beliefs are.


To illustrate what I'm trying to say, let's take capital punishment (yeah, I was hoping to come up with a less inflammatory subject, but this one kind of offered itself).

Now, if we go beyond the things one can actually reasonably argue about, like the "deterrent effect", the cost factor, etc. (at least until somebody brings up all the studies debunking the arguments of the proponents and wins :D ;)), what it will boil down to is that I will say "It's just not right. Period. Even the most vile criminal is still a human being, and it's not right for us to say he should die and kill him. That's all the argument I've left - not very logically thought through, huh? I just know in my guts that this is the wrong thing to do".
And somebody who supports the death penalty might say "What it boils down to is that this guy took a life, so he deserves to die as well. I couldn't care less about the bible and 'eye for an eye', it's obvious to me as it is. I just know in my guts that this is the right thing to do."



Aah, all my talk about "gut feelings" is unsophisticatedly dragging this thread down. I'll shut up now.

FWIW, I think you are expressing yourself quite well and making a good contribution to the thread. Please don't shut up.

Interestingly enough, I came to much the same conclusions years ago, albiet without the "benefit" of mushrooms. :)

Trying to apply "Darwinianism" or "survival of the fittest" to any social construct is actually a form of tyranny. I advocate making the playing field as level as possible, given the overall impact on society. For example: given that many people are motivated by greed, to totally eliminate the possibility of becoming monetarily rich would demotivate huge numbers of people and have an adverse impact on society as a whole. Yet failing to provide opportunity for a quality education so that the children of the less-well-to-do have the opportunity to rise above their family background is tatamount to establishment of a ruling oligarchy. Charting a middle course between these two extremes is a necessary task of governance.

Seek the middle way, Grasshopper! :D

I actually think the same thing - I think that a motivational factor in getting a job that requires more ability and training is of course necessary. I think a combination of capitalism and socialism is the key to a happy state. It just so happens that what I regard a good balance most people see as left wing. To me, a single person earning more than about £100,000 a year when people who work the same hours earn £10,000 just seems absurd, as that is more than enough to live in absolute luxury and easily provide for children. I like what Plato said - the richest worker should not earn more than 10x than that of the poorest worker in a state.

But, like I say, that's just the way my brain is wired. I'm sure some people think my views equally are absurd and cannot possibly contemplate how I could think that way.

Pffft, never thought about this one.

Errm. To start, I'm English, 18 and male.
My parents were fairly lefty; they never went preaching away to me, but i got the impression that they felt that we should help people, level the playing field etc. I read a lot, but never really thought about it until Bush's election in 2000, and the allegations of fraud. That got me fired up, as did my GCSE history teacher (she was an excellent teacher, and when we brought in Blairs dossier on the 'WMDs', we basically sat and read it through the lesson, poking holes in it). My first demo was an anti war demo in Feb of 2002.

Seeing the Americans trample all over international law, etc. actually started me thinking about what I belived. Age of Consent, by George Monbiot echoed what I felt about the world, and demolished my tendencies towards communism. More recently, science and scientific rationalism has started to influence me. The works of Kim Stanley Robinson, in partiular, echo my beliefs. So you could say, I went left and stayed left, but my idea of 'leftness' has undergone several radical changes.

Apparently, if I don't get any sleep, we get along better and I get funnier.

Go figure. :D
[ whips out his handy-dandy, atomic-powered, quantum-uncertainty-based, hand-held calculator ] Uh ... sorry, but that does not compute! :)

President Bush taught me to love the Democratic party, yep. It was the 2000 Presidential election that taught me that the plurality (yes, plurality..Gore got 48.4% to Bush's 47.9%, and a majority is anything above exactly 50%) could not express their will so long the Republican Party was around. The blatant corruption and cheating by the Bush campaign with having the secretary in that states government who authorizes the election results on his campaign, to his brother trying to associate Bush with himself to get Bush votes. Needless to say I was disgusted at how the minority got their wish carried out, that's what happens in Communist nations such as China and Vietnam,(The Chinese Communist Party has only 4 million party members, yet remain in power in so called "democratic elections") not in the United States..We're suppost to be "the free world", yet the most popular choice doesn't get the office.

Thanks for listening to my rant, lol.

What events in your life made you decide on your political stances? Why did you decide to go left/right, repo/dem?
No events, just philosophies. Both left and right ideologies have characteristics that are appealing: the freedom and growth of liberalism, and the stability and assurance of conservativism. Most all political parties where I live, in Canada, are centralist, trying to embrace both sides. So the real deciding factor is in what issues are emphasized, and what ideas are put forth to support those issues.

For instance, the Conservative party made the Sponsorship programme an issue of "Liberal corruption". That's one strike against them, in my book, because instead of working to correct the problem, they were more interested in engaging a "hurt my enemy" mentality. I want no part in such a childish philosophy.

I am having a hard time expressing myself here; in English, to boot. But this is pretty much it:

But having said that, I certainly don't think this precludes being able to examine "previously unexamined beliefs in light of reason and decide which to keep and which to discard". I'd hope this were a given, no matter what your basic, core beliefs are.

To illustrate what I'm trying to say, let's take capital punishment (yeah, I was hoping to come up with a less inflammatory subject, but this one kind of offered itself).

Now, if we go beyond the things one can actually reasonably argue about, like the "deterrent effect", the cost factor, etc. (at least until somebody brings up all the studies debunking the arguments of the proponents and wins :D ;)), what it will boil down to is that I will say "It's just not right. Period. Even the most vile criminal is still a human being, and it's not right for us to say he should die and kill him. That's all the argument I've left - not very logically thought through, huh? I just know in my guts that this is the wrong thing to do".

And somebody who supports the death penalty might say "What it boils down to is that this guy took a life, so he deserves to die as well. I couldn't care less about the bible and 'eye for an eye', it's obvious to me as it is. I just know in my guts that this is the right thing to do."

Aah, all my talk about "gut feelings" is unsophisticatedly dragging this thread down. I'll shut up now.
Please don't!

In the example you use, that of Capital punishment, what of society's right to be free of fear and violence? It makes little sense to me to continue to provide food, clothing, shelter and free medical care to those who have "gone beyond the pale," so to speak, when it comes to extreme forms of behavior, especially violence ( murder, rape, child-molestation ).

I actually think the same thing - I think that a motivational factor in getting a job that requires more ability and training is of course necessary. I think a combination of capitalism and socialism is the key to a happy state. It just so happens that what I regard a good balance most people see as left wing. To me, a single person earning more than about £100,000 a year when people who work the same hours earn £10,000 just seems absurd, as that is more than enough to live in absolute luxury and easily provide for children. I like what Plato said - the richest worker should not earn more than 10x than that of the poorest worker in a state.

But, like I say, that's just the way my brain is wired. I'm sure some people think my views equally are absurd and cannot possibly contemplate how I could think that way.
They're not "absurd" at all! I too believe that making say, $100,000 per year is more than adequate. Hell, in a world where human beings weren't selfish, greedy and/or lazy, communisim ( in its pure form ) would be the ideal political structure. Unfortunately, human beings are greedy, selfish, avaricious and lazy. Any political system which doesn't take human fallibility into account is doomed to failure or subversion.

Please don't!

In the example you use, that of Capital punishment, what of society's right to be free of fear and violence? It makes little sense to me to continue to provide food, clothing, shelter and free medical care to those who have "gone beyond the pale," so to speak, when it comes to extreme forms of behavior, especially violence ( murder, rape, child-molestation ).
Does a society have rights? Individuals have rights.

I don't know. I just support what works.

Interesting.

If I understand what you're saying here, it has to do with the old emotions vs. reason dichotomy. It's true that most people's beliefs and value systems have an emotional base, most of which probably derives from early experiences primarily from parents ( either in acceptance of, or in reaction to ).

Well, as Einstein wondefully explained in his "Why socialism ?" article ( http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm ), science or reason cannot give you a purpose nor a moral goal. Science can't tell what is "right" or "wrong". Science and reason can be used to find ways to achieve your goal, it can show you the consequences of a decision or another. But it'll not tell you what is "good" to do.

So yes, it has to come to "feelings", to "guts", to some kind of "belief" when you want to think about what you want, and what you don't want. What reason is needed for is to ponder which ways, which decisions would move yourself closer to the goal.

My feelings, my beliefs, are humanism. I don't want people to suffer when it's avoidable. I don't want people to starve. I don't want people to be oppressed, ensalved in a way or another. I don't want people to fight against each other. I don't want our planet to be wasted, and next generations sacrified. That, no science, no reason can give it for me. It's what my heart, my feelings tell me.

Then, with that goal fixed, I can use science and reason, and look at history, economics, ... and see that capitalism has utterly failed, and is doomed to fail, at fullfilling those goals; while "communism" (or "socialism" or however you call it) is what is required. So I'm a "communist". But I'll always use my reason and my brain to ponder if a given action, a given leader, a given policy would fulfill my goal or not - and it may lead me to disagree with comrades.

Quite a surprising number of people ( though still a minority, IMHO ) are able at some point to examine their previously unexamined beliefs in light of reason and decide which to keep and which to discard. It's as I'm fond of saying about religion: the unexamined faith is actually no faith at all.

I agree with this part

Aah, all my talk about "gut feelings" is unsophisticatedly dragging this thread down. I'll shut up now.

Nah, don't ;) What you say is interesting, and I agree with most of it ;)

I was raised to be pretty close to Center. My dad's always been a Leftist as far as social issues go, but he's quite the Free Marketeer. Now, he does support fair wages and unions, so he's not actually that far to the Right in that area.

I was raised to think like he does. But two years ago, I really began to question the ideals that were pretty much shoved down my throat.

I did my research. I came out of it as a complete Social Libertarian. I figured that if people should be able to do absolutely anything they want, unless they wanted to cause harm to others.

Then, I started posting on NS General. Some of the Rightists on this board drove me further to the Left of the economic scale, but it was really my own inquiring mind that drove me as far as I've gone (which, technically, is as far as the scale goes). I now despise corporations, have no confidence whatsoever in a "free market", and I have come to see market-bsaed economies as nothing more than vehicles for corporations to help their bottom line.

Throw whatever insults you wish to throw in my direction, but I can safely say that I've become an Anarcho-Communist because of the research I've done, the people I've talked to, and the generally disgusting state of the world at the present time. I'm not one to let people shove things down my throat.

I was raised to be pretty close to Center. My dad's always been a Leftist as far as social issues go, but he's quite the Free Marketeer. Now, he does support fair wages and unions, so he's not actually that far to the Right in that area.

I was raised to think like he does. But two years ago, I really began to question the ideals that were pretty much shoved down my throat.

I did my research. I came out of it as a complete Social Libertarian. I figured that if people should be able to do absolutely anything they want, unless they wanted to cause harm to others.

Then, I started posting on NS General. Some of the Rightists on this board drove me further to the Left of the economic scale, but it was really my own inquiring mind that drove me as far as I've gone (which, technically, is as far as the scale goes). I now despise corporations, have no confidence whatsoever in a "free market", and I have come to see market-bsaed economies as nothing more than vehicles for corporations to help their bottom line.

Throw whatever insults you wish to throw in my direction, but I can safely say that I've become an Anarcho-Communist because of the research I've done, the people I've talked to, and the generally disgusting state of the world at the present time. I'm not one to let people shove things down my throat.

Couldn't agree more. :)

My english teacher and my parents. But manyly my english teacher.

He was probably the best teacher I ever had, inspirational, clever. He ahd a PHD in English so he knew his stuff, he didn't pull any punches eathier. He swore at us, but at the same time showed us respect.he was a great guy, very political.

My parents where members of the Lib Dems and very left wing, they kinda rubbed off on me.

And common sense of course. :D

He swore at us

Dude. Are you sure that this

http://home.comcast.net/~cheidle/fark/R__Lee_Ermey_i_Full__20650f.jpg

wasn't your teacher? :p

Couldn't agree more. :)

Heh. :D

Oh, and I've come to utterly hate Ayn Rand and her "Objectivism" bullshit. What a bitch.

Well, I started out as your average Christian fundamentalist, bashing homosexuals and communists and bemoaning those aweful welfare recipients. Then I realized that it was all nonsense. There was no gay agenda and my problems with gay people were rooted in pointless prejudice. I realized that social classes are a reality and that they suck. I figured out the truth that Britney Spears and Paris Hilton are not hard-working contributers to prosperity; the farmers, factory workers, and teachers who get far less money than they do are.

Heh. :D

Oh, and I've come to utterly hate Ayn Rand and her "Objectivism" bullshit. What a bitch.

Steady there, blaspheming the name of the Rand will have the Faithful up in arms.

I've read some Rand material, though... and I'm not much of a fan....

Well, I started out as your average Christian fundamentalist, bashing homosexuals and communists and bemoaning those aweful welfare recipients. Then I realized that it was all nonsense. There was no gay agenda and my problems with gay people were rooted in pointless prejudice. I realized that social classes are a reality and that they suck. I figured out the truth that Britney Spears and Paris Hilton are not hard-working contributers to prosperity; the farmers, factory workers, and teachers who get far less money than they do are.

Baseball players... with the 'excuse' that they NEED millions of dollars a year, because they have such short professional careers.... and they leave you thinking "bullshit! The average American will probably never see 'millions' of dollars, in their whole career...

Steady there, blaspheming the name of the Rand will have the Faithful up in arms.

I've read some Rand material, though... and I'm not much of a fan....

1: Don't worry, I've dealt with the cult before. Never, ever take anything they say to heart, because they're obviously too stupid to form their own opinions (sheesh, if they're going to be selfish pricks, they should at least be their own kind of prick, not somebody else's).

2: Yeah, I read part of The Fountainhead. What a god-awful piece of garbage.

Baseball players... with the 'excuse' that they NEED millions of dollars a year, because they have such short professional careers.... and they leave you thinking "bullshit! The average American will probably never see 'millions' of dollars, in their whole career...

Yet, judging by the way this country's going, the average American is going to need millions of dollars to live even a decent life, though they'll never even see that much money in their own bank accounts.

Yet, judging by the way this country's going, the average American is going to need millions of dollars to live even a decent life, though they'll never even see that much money in their own bank accounts.

Seriously... I mean, especially if you are dumb enough to get sick. If I find a tumour, for example... I know I'm going to have to die untreated. Nobody can seriously afford it.

(My father in law was selfish enough to spend 6 months dying of his cancer... if it didn't cost a literal million, it was certainly way up in the hundreds of thousands...)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9866172&postcount=19


And, of course, things like this tend to augment the leftward tilt:

http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/

Seriously... I mean, especially if you are dumb enough to get sick. If I find a tumour, for example... I know I'm going to have to die untreated. Nobody can seriously afford it.

(My father in law was selfish enough to spend 6 months dying of his cancer... if it didn't cost a literal million, it was certainly way up in the hundreds of thousands...)

Sucky. I've been on welfare since January of 1998 because of my dad's health issues. If it hadn't been for welfare, I'd probably be dead (or in a really, really shitty place).

If we were living in the Objectivist world? Nah, nothing like that'd ever happen, because you see, Laissez-Faire Capitalism is fucking perfect. :p

Somebody once said every idealistic young person in high school or college that isn't a democrat doesn't have a heart. And every one who gets their first full time job that isn't a Republican doesn't have a brain.

I am neither a Republican or a Democrat. I am a conservative. I generally tend to vote Republican, although I've voted for one Democrat who was pro-life and the Republican running against him was not. So for me the answer would be taxes and I don't support what appears to be the sacrament of liberalism - abortion. All of these things have been dwarfed since September 11th, however, by the largest issue of our time - terrorism. So I would vote for any candidate that recognized there are terrorists in the world (most of whom appear religiously driven, who hate us and are positioned at war against us) and sought to protect us from further attacks by bringing the fight to them instead of allowing them to bring it here. What hacks me off about democrats and republicans is an almost disregard for our borders. It would seem, in light of September 11th, we would care a bit more about our borders than we do.

I don't know much about it, but a friend tells me my beliefs match more up to what is called The Constitution Party. Whereas that may be the case, I will always vote for a "viable" candidate in an election.

Somebody once said every idealistic young person in high school or college that isn't a democrat doesn't have a heart. And every one who gets their first full time job that isn't a Republican doesn't have a brain.

I am neither a Republican or a Democrat. I am a conservative. I generally tend to vote Republican, although I've voted for one Democrat who was pro-life and the Republican running against him was not. So for me the answer would be taxes and I don't support what appears to be the sacrament of liberalism - abortion. All of these things have been dwarfed since September 11th, however, by the largest issue of our time - terrorism. So I would vote for any candidate that recognized there are terrorists in the world (most of whom appear religiously driven, who hate us and are positioned at war against us) and sought to protect us from further attacks by bringing the fight to them instead of allowing them to bring it here. What hacks me off about democrats and republicans is an almost disregard for our borders. It would seem, in light of September 11th, we would care a bit more about our borders than we do.

I don't know much about it, but a friend tells me my beliefs match more up to what is called The Constitution Party. Whereas that may be the case, I will always vote for a "viable" candidate in an election.

It's mostly my grandfather's fault, he is a far-left democrat, he used to pick me up from junior high, he would listen to Rush every afternoon (mostly so he could cuss at the radio about how stupid Rush was) after a while Rush started to make more sense to me than my grandfather did.

I told him that once and he kicked me out of his truck, he made me walk home, we were 5 1/2 miles from my house:(

I originally registered democrat so that my family wouldn't disown me, but when I got married I went and changed my affiliation, I figured it didn't matter if they disowned me then. :)

My english teacher reccomended a book to us called 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' by Robert Tressell. I read it and found myself agreeing with just about everything it was saying. I became a socialist and I've never looked back.:)

Basically girls and the abortion issue made a liberal out of me when I was around 14. I blame them and marijuana cigarettes. Really, there was no hope of resistance for me.

Basically girls and the abortion issue made a liberal out of me when I was around 14. I blame them and marijuana cigarettes. Really, there was no hope of resistance for me.

Heh. Yay for girls and dope! :p

My dislike of America began with the bombing of Serbia in 1999. Centrism followed.

Heh. Yay for girls and dope! :p
And yay for America, my friend.

It's mostly my grandfather's fault, he is a far-left democrat, he used to pick me up from junior high, he would listen to Rush every afternoon (mostly so he could cuss at the radio about how stupid Rush was) after a while Rush started to make more sense to me than my grandfather did.

I told him that once and he kicked me out of his truck, he made me walk home, we were 5 1/2 miles from my house:(

I originally registered democrat so that my family wouldn't disown me, but when I got married I went and changed my affiliation, I figured it didn't matter if they disowned me then. :)

Rush kick ass, man, but Neal Peart is a ****. Seriously.

Rush kick ass, man, but Neal Peart is a ****. Seriously.
Rush annoys me more and more lately I have found more interesting people to listen to, but yeah I agree about Neal. ;)

Rush annoys me more and more lately I have found more interesting people to listen to, but yeah I agree about Neal. ;)

I stared for ages at ideologies and blinked.
Then i picked up a handgun and proceeded to shoot the conservatives in my area.
Pretty normal stuff.

Rush annoys me more and more lately I have found more interesting people to listen to, but yeah I agree about Neal. ;)

Yeah, but I misspelled his name. Should be Neil, but oh well. Can't win 'em all (hey, I've been saying that a lot today).

I don't really charactarize myself as left or right.

Here are my stats:

Economic Left/Right: -6.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 10.00

My dad is fairly small-c conservative (reads the Daily Mail:( ), my mum varies. What really turned me on to political involvement was taking a politics course at college: before this, I had views on a few specific issues, but nothing substantial. As part of the course we were encouraged to read 'a broadsheet' paper, and I went for The Independent, for no other reason than the fact that I'd seen a few friends reading it.
Thank you Independent! You changed my life! Wasn't long before I was comparing the crap in the Mail with an actual newspaper. One with real statistics to back up its stories, rather than vague assertions and baseless figures being used to argue that Britain was being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants. Wonderful, but scarily accurate parody of what we get from the Mail and similar papers: http://www.deadbrain.co.uk/news/article_2004_05_01_0150.php

So, it was reading a decent newspaper which iitially turned me towards the left-wing. In case you want to know, yes I do read other papers: Occasionally read the Times, sometimes the Guardian. I also watch the news (BBC & Channel 4, Newsnight), and do talk to other people about politics, ask them what they think. Yeah, I know, these are all at most centre-right. Well, I'm a moderate kind of guy, although my Political Compass stats don't agree...
After that, it was more the friends I was making than anything else which made me become increasingly left-wing and liberal, especially since coming to university - I helped start up a Socialist Society here in fact. For which read 'general left-wingers' society.
I don't support our current government. I in fact voted for the Lib Dems in the last election (2005): even though they may be confused/confusing sometimes, I felt they were the most left-wing mainstream party on offer - sad to say. I consider myself to be a liberal leftie - in terms of society & economy respectively - in general. This is why I feel I cannot support Blair & co.'s authoritarian, warmongering, pro-business agenda.

Discworld Rocks

Yeah, but I misspelled his name. Should be Neil, but oh well. Can't win 'em all (hey, I've been saying that a lot today).
hey I misspelled right along with you.........I think I need a nap.....I knew what you were talking about though, so that should count for something.;)

Discworld Rocks

Fuck yeah, "Interesting Times" is awesome:)

hey I misspelled right along with you.........I think I need a nap.....I knew what you were talking about though, so that should count for something.;)

Oh, definitely. As long as we get what others are talking about, misspellings and typos really aren't an issue. :p

Fuck yeah, "Interesting Times" is awesome:)

Definately. I liked Mort best tho

Can't win 'em all (hey, I've been saying that a lot today).
That alone should tell you something! :D

Definately. I liked Mort best tho

mmm... Small Gods...
As an atheist, I loved that one.

mmm... Small Gods...
As an atheist, I loved that one.

Aye, there all good. Check this out. DiscworldMud.
Roleplaying text game.
...Seamstresses guild is funny.
Hehe.

That alone should tell you something! :D

*stabstabstabstabSTAB*

*falls to the floor*

*dies*

Definately. I liked Mort best tho

Dunno, cant rlly remember it.

Rush annoys me more and more lately I have found more interesting people to listen to, but yeah I agree about Neal. ;)

As with a goodly number of other people in here, I grew up with a very conservative, authoritarian father, who eventually disowned me for doing such drastic things as wanting to sing in a choir and move out of his house and get married. But I haven't reacted like most of the people here seem to have reacted.

I started listening to Rush Limbaugh when I was 8 or so - back when he was funny, lighthearted, made fun of himself and everyone else, and never took anything seriously. He made a lot of sense, and I agreed with him, mostly. I don't listen to him anymore, because he's irritating, old, stuffy and all seroius. Anymore, I tend to prefer listening to liberatarians, and to Glenn Beck.

Anyway, I think I still agree with my father on most issues - abortion, military, taxes, education, etc - but not so much on the way he approaches any of them. I'm still conservative, primarily just because I think it makes so much more sense... but I tend to be much... um, less psychotic about it.

As with a goodly number of other people in here, I grew up with a very conservative, authoritarian father, who eventually disowned me for doing such drastic things as wanting to sing in a choir and move out of his house and get married. But I haven't reacted like most of the people here seem to have reacted.

I started listening to Rush Limbaugh when I was 8 or so - back when he was funny, lighthearted, made fun of himself and everyone else, and never took anything seriously. He made a lot of sense, and I agreed with him, mostly. I don't listen to him anymore, because he's irritating, old, stuffy and all seroius. Anymore, I tend to prefer listening to liberatarians, and to Glenn Beck.

Anyway, I think I still agree with my father on most issues - abortion, military, taxes, education, etc - but not so much on the way he approaches any of them. I'm still conservative, primarily just because I think it makes so much more sense... but I tend to be much... um, less psychotic about it.

yeah, we were acutally talking about the band Rush then and not actually Rush Limbaugh like we were earlier (or I was anyway) but yeah I find Rush L to be more arogant than he was when I was in junior high and that is rather annoying. I listen to Glen Beck now too, he is pretty cool most of the time. I like Mike Gallagher too, although sometimes I just want to go smack him. :p

Well, my parents were both good liberals ... the first political event I remember really taking notice of was the Gulf War, and I took my cues on that from them ... as with a lot of issues back then ... being queer, I was aware of discrimination at a young age, and sympathized early on not only with oppressed queer people in the U.S., but also oppressed Catholics in Northern Ireland and oppressed Palestinians ... and I found the left lining up on my side on all these issues ... in middle school I read a lot of political thinkers ... among them Rousseau, Jefferson, Paine, Burke, Lenin, and Mussolini ... and tried to sift through their ideas to see what I agreed and disagreed with ... one of the most influential things I remember reading, though, is an old Playboy interview with Daniel Ortega, in which he made (as I recall) an eloquent and impassioned defense of the justice of his cause.

*stabstabstabstabSTAB*

*falls to the floor*

*dies*
LOL! No need to go to that extreme! :D

Politically, it would be my meeting Hague briefly in 2001 as a 12 year old, and then further reading into the true Tory party.

...also oppressed Catholics in Northern Ireland...Why do a lot of Americans think we're still oppressed? We're not really and haven't been, on a day to day basis at least, for quite a number of years. There is no point dwelling on the past. The only people still doing the 'oppressing' are the fuckers on both sides that want to kill innocents.

yeah, we were acutally talking about the band Rush then and not actually Rush Limbaugh like we were earlier (or I was anyway) but yeah I find Rush L to be more arogant than he was when I was in junior high and that is rather annoying. I listen to Glen Beck now too, he is pretty cool most of the time. I like Mike Gallagher too, although sometimes I just want to go smack him. :p

:headbang: *looks extremely stupid*

I really like Glenn Beck... most of the time. Once in a while he'll go off on something and I'll just be wondering if someone performed a brain transplant and suddenly made him stupid. But he'd be worth listening to just for More(on) Trivia and Jepretardy. Mike Gallagher I've heard, but I'm not sure when/if he's on where I am now.

Either way, they really don't tend to change my views so much as strengthen my positions, whether or not I agree wiht them.

the ideology that financial freedom is better than forced economic equality

as for Rush L, isn't he losing his hearing?

IF that's the case, it might help account for why he's always yelling. hehe

I'm not trying to be original or inflammatory here...but to be honest...it's simply the stupidity of the left which drove me right.

My mom is a social worker and a democrat (socially conservative, financially liberal) and my dad is the vice president of an insurance firm. (socially conservative, financially conservative)

I'm far more socially liberal than either of them, and very much like my dad in financial matters.

Rush annoys me more and more lately I have found more interesting people to listen to, but yeah I agree about Neal. ;)

Now that I think of it, you were obviously talking about Rush Limbaugh. Oh well, what I said still goes. Neil Peart's a jackass.

Now that I think of it, you were obviously talking about Rush Limbaugh. Oh well, what I said still goes. Neil Peart's a jackass.
actually I think the "annoying me more and more lately" probably applies to both of them LOL.

1 cup sugar
2 cups flour
1/2 cup oil

1. Mix ingredients and stir well.
2. When homogenized, spread on baking tin in small balls.
3. Bake at 350 for 45 minutes.
4. Let cool and yum!

anyways...my parents are liberals so I guess that made me liberal and my friend told me about communism and I then adopted socialism. Bill Maher also has a big effect on my thoughts.

I've always been mostly conservative fiscally but moderate liberal socially. What got me to ally myself primarily w/ the "right" was the issue of firearms. Of all individual "rights', the idea of personal protection and RKBA seem anethema to the "left" and too many leaders in the DNC.

The crowning moment was when Gov. Blagogevich and King Dick in Illinois tried to pass a law so vague as to ban practically all firearms. Listening to the high up Dems over and over just kept reinforcing my opinion. To me, they are effectively saying " We'll let you do anything you want as long as it agrees our opinion but you have to rely on the Gov't to protect yourself and your family." That to me states more clearly what they really think of the individual.

I never listen to Rush, given his show is boring.
I prefer Michael Savage.
Yes, I am a radical conservative on most issues.
I've grown in a moderate to liberal family.
My sister thinks WWII was illeagal, and my mom argues about how the US is crap.
My dad is more moderate, he likes Bush on domestic issues, but has been against the War from the beginning.
I'm a conservative because of one man:
Charles Krauthammer.
I read his articles when I was only 10 years old, and began wondering about politics then.
From there, I began reading other conservative writers. (George Will is my idol)
As for my beliefs:
I'm a fundamentally economic conservative, arguing for the tax cuts, the free trade, I support free markets and such.
I have supported the War on Iraq from the beginning, and I plan to serve when I turn 18.
Social issues I'm more ambivalnet. I have been a lifelong atheist, but I've begun to think of converting to Lutheranism. I oppose gun control for handguns, but support it for semiautomatic rifles.
Being of Japanese descent, I'm insanely against affirmative action.
And finally, I have no respect for any enviromentalists. I support drilling in the Arctic, ending the ban on offshore drilling, and a massive construction of nuclear power plants to end our dependence on oil.
Oh yeah, First post. HI,.

I am slightly right wing (British) and this is why:

Raised in a conservative family, I have always been slightly on the conservative side, although I did sometimes find myself arguing with my parents when I thought there were being unfair (e.g. they think immigration should be stamped down upon as most of the immigrants dont work in their oppinion although I think Immigration should just be controlled alot more).

Sent to a nice middle class public school, where it seems 90% of the people are liberals. If I ever say something in support of George Bush or against abortion, they look at me like I am some sort of hill billy. This made me generally annoyed at liberals. I just find them far too pious for my liking.

Thats pretty much it.

I grew up in a Working Class Tory family , while living in a tory heartland when i was young i got sent to prep school ( cos schools then didn't realy cope with folk with Dyspraxia etc) which instilled being a conservative even more and i didnt know realy anyother party but Conservative thuogh that is why i am right of centre

I had to work 2 jobs(a FT sales job in a crappy cube farm and then 20 hrs a week as a bouncer in the evenings) and could barely pay my bills at the end of the month. One day I found myself in a grocery store trying to decide how much soup I should buy. If I bought enough to eat one meal a day, I wouldn't have enough gas to get to my 2 jobs.
I opened my wallet (to see if I had maybe miscounted my money or possibly a fairy had put some more in there) and saw my pay stub from my last check. My eyes were drawn to the income tax withheld line and I noticed that if the government hadn't taken my money away from me before I had a chance to get my hands on it, I wouldn't be having this pathetic debate with myself in the soup aisle.
That's when I really started to pay more attention to politics. And just in case anyone was wondering, I stole the soup.:confused: What?...You stole the soup???

hmm err...

Good http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif :D

I was born into a fairly conservative family. Although my mother was a Reagan Democrat (I think) and my father more of a Burkian conservative than anything else, my father was always the type to give both sides a fair shake in a debate, and he was not above criticizing even Reagan (who, incidentally, was a personal friend of my father's) if he felt that Reagan had abandoned his principles, which he felt that in Iran-Contra he probably had. That being said, my step-dad was a Limbaugh Republican, and my mom who, to be honest, was not very well-versed in politics beyond a general commitment to abortion rights, soon followed his example.

In my early years, I was therefore turned out to be a staunch but fairly moderate Republican, although that increased in 1994 to 1996. The one thing that really kept me looking at the left, however, was Meg Greenfield's Newsweek column, where I often found myself agreeing with her even more than I did George Will. What really started to turn me around, however, was debate class in high school, basically because we would debate things like the death penalty or economic liberties or what have you, and I always found that by far the more compelling arguments were on the side of the left, not to mention what pragmatically worked. The more I looked at the death penalty, the less I could justify it and see how it served any purpose. The more I looked at rugged individualism, the less I saw how that was even possible in a modern service economy. What kept me going to the left side of the spectrum was my US history class (ironically taught by a libertarian) and in politics, the impeachment trial of President Clinton. In the former, I saw example after example of everything the Republican party increasingly seemed to advocate increasing the misery of the common man; in the latter, I found a political witchhunt where Ken Starr looked for years and years to find something, anything the President had done, only to find that he lied about a blowjob in a deposition that had nothing to do with said blowjob, for which he was hung from the rafters.

As such, I felt that the Republican party had not only bankrupted itself morally in the pursuit of power, but I also felt that the ideas that the party espoused were terrible for the continued strength of the country. I went Dem in '98, and have only considered changing since because the Democrats refuse to grow a backbone to stand up for what is right.

Studying history in year 8 i saw how pointless borders were, when it came down to it. From that point on i dropped all sense of patriotism

Studying history in year 9 i saw the effects of racism in the form of the slave trade, and read up in my text books about the civil right movement. From that point on I became avowedly anti-racist

Studying history in year 10 we read about the bolshevik revolution and i started to understand why they hated capitalism, even though i didnt really agree with how to get to it. From that point on I was a socialist.

In year 12 I met up with some people from REVOLUTION for a bit of a chat and realised that they talked more sense than the anarcho/syndicalist / reformist beliefs I had heard before. From that point on I became a Trotskyist.

Studying history in year 8 i saw how pointless borders were, when it came down to it. From that point on i dropped all sense of patriotism

Studying history in year 9 i saw the effects of racism in the form of the slave trade, and read up in my text books about the civil right movement. From that point on I became avowedly anti-racist

Studying history in year 10 we read about the bolshevik revolution and i started to understand why they hated capitalism, even though i didnt really agree with how to get to it. From that point on I was a socialist.

In year 12 I met up with some people from REVOLUTION for a bit of a chat and realised that they talked more sense than the anarcho/syndicalist / reformist beliefs I had heard before. From that point on I became a Trotskyist.

Thats uncanny...
Same here
Except it was helped along by my huge urge to not be the Upper-Middle class dude.
i twitched uncontrollably in the prescense of snobs.
Grrr.

Uh. Kind of comes with being born in the North.

My first developed my political views in early 2002-2003. I began to examine the role of sovereign and how to best maintain national stability. I wasn't necessarily patriotic, but merely interested in how to create and maintain a stable and powerful government and nation. It was here that I began to admire Saddam Hussein and from mid 2003-2004(ish) I became an apologist for Saddam. I am not proud of these years, but I cannot change it. I introduced myself to socialism and eventually my newfound socialists ideals destroyed what Saddamism I had left in me. I drifted more towards socialism, eventually joining the Socialist Party and even flirting with anarcho-communism. I remained, in idealism an anarcho-communists but in practice a socialist. Then in March 2005 I changed. I began reading economics, especially Milton Friedman. I introduced myself to the Austrian school and eventually abandoned the very socialism which had rescued me a year earlier. It was at this point that I became a libertarian and I am still evolving, regarding myself as an Old Whig one could say.

I am neither I hate politics

And yet you are effected by policies.

Around 5th grade when I figured out what the difference between a republic/democracy was I turned my sights towards Direct Democracy. About two years later [ 7th ] I took a good look around and decided that probably wasn't the best idea. [11th] grade I started learning about socialism/communism and marxism and found that ideally I favored Communism, and realistically Democratic Socialism. My beliefs haven't wavered since then. Ironically the only alternative I see that I like is Fuedalism...

( yah yah, I know )

This is directed more toward U.S, posters, but anyone else who wants to anwer to this is more than welcome.

..

I evolved from an atheistic liberal into an atheistic conservative when I grewup.

It's nice to have ideals as goals, gives one a nice, smug sense of self importance, as if your life will ultimately MEAN something.

But footing the bill for every reform minded Tom Dick and Harry that comes down the pike with an ambition for my wallet got old after 30 years of seeing promises seldom fulfilled, and only an empty pit left in my wallet to show for it.

So, to put it short and sweet: "enough was enough"

I realized that the one thing that the world would NEVER run out of was liberals with brilliant ideas requiring only someone else's money to put their plan in action, so I evolved into a conservative.

I was raised in a large Social Democrat family. I was politically active from a young age, helping leaflet and canvas neighbourhoods during elections. After I left home, I had to work quite hard to keep myself independent, and so I became less politically active while I focused on employment (and when I could afford it, continuing my education).

Thing is, the gruelling work experience really opened my eyes. While I had become less politically active, my views swung much further to the left. I was sickened, and still am sickened - more so, in fact - by the vacuousness of consumerite culture.

Nonetheless, I still to this day usually vote Social Democrat when elections roll around. Call me sentimental.

I've always been more free-market than mixed-market or socialist, so my move towards economic neoliberalism was kind of the next step, given my strong support for free trade, internationalism, and globalization. Also, my beliefs in liberalism (the classical kind) led to my generally libertarian outlook on most social issues.

I could be described as a progressive neoliberal.

I realized that the one thing that the world would NEVER run out of was liberals with brilliant ideas requiring only someone else's money to put their plan in action, so I evolved into a conservative.
ROFL! Yup! You caught on. :D

i'm actually maturing and realizing that all the trash socity puts on us is horrible. i used to be very conservative, pretty racist, and anti-gay. now i'm somewhat liberal, 100% anti-racist, and totally pro-gay rights. over time i've come to see that hate is wrong, and that conservatism has hurt this country a lot.... however at the same time, things on left horrify me, and i think society should be politcally, a liberal nation with TRUE justice, but our culture shouldn't be disgusting. people need to rediscover morality.

I am a mild conservative. My parents were democratic until John Kerry came around. It was around that time that I figured out that I was conservative and what an idiot Kerry is. Also, Ted Kennedy pushes me very far right on his own. I don't know why Massachusetts continues to let him make a fool of himself, the Democratic Party, the state, and the nation.

i'm actually maturing and realizing that all the trash socity puts on us is horrible. i used to be very conservative, pretty racist, and anti-gay. now i'm somewhat liberal, 100% anti-racist, and totally pro-gay rights. over time i've come to see that hate is wrong, and that conservatism has hurt this country a lot.... however at the same time, things on left horrify me, and i think society should be politcally, a liberal nation with TRUE justice, but our culture shouldn't be disgusting. people need to rediscover morality.
conservative =/= racist

I am a mild conservative. My parents were democratic until John Kerry came around. It was around that time that I figured out that I was conservative and what an idiot Kerry is. Also, Ted Kennedy pushes me very far right on his own. I don't know why Massachusetts continues to let him make a fool of himself, the Democratic Party, the state, and the nation.
Because he's a past master at getting federal money for Massachusetts.

i became republican after i learned about the general democratic choice of pro-death.

As an individual concerned with personal liberties, I'm bothered by the Republican party's support of the Federal Marriage Amendment and desire to restrict things like porn (which I consider to be a part of free speech - just keep the Playboys away from the kids).

As a child of green card holders, I'm bothered by the Democratic party's attempts to give illegal aliens rights that my parents worked long and hard for.

As someone who's worked for an hourly wage, I dislike the Republican party's lack of support for labor unions.

As someone who believes in equal treatment and opportunity based on merit, I dislike the Democratic party's support of affirmative action in the workforce and college admissions.

I don't like the fact that the Republican party acts as though it has a monopoly on religion or that the Democratic party acts as though it has a monopoly on openmindedness.

I suppose I consider myself a centrist... or just apolitical.

As an individual concerned with personal liberties, I'm bothered by the Republican party's support of the Federal Marriage Amendment and desire to restrict things like porn (which I consider to be a part of free speech - just keep the Playboys away from the kids).

As a child of green card holders, I'm bothered by the Democratic party's attempts to give illegal aliens rights that my parents worked long and hard for.

As someone who's worked for an hourly wage, I dislike the Republican party's lack of support for labor unions.

As someone who believes in equal treatment and opportunity based on merit, I dislike the Democratic party's support of affirmative action in the workforce and college admissions.

I don't like the fact that the Republican party acts as though it has a monopoly on religion or that the Democratic party acts as though it has a monopoly on openmindedness.

I suppose I consider myself a centrist... or just apolitical.
Add in guns and you sound like Eut.

What does he think about guns? I'm a pacifist myself.

What does he think about guns? I'm a pacifist myself.
ah, pacifist, and Eut don't often go in the same sentence, not that he is violent or anything, but you know, he was in the military..........

ah, pacifist, and Eut don't often go in the same sentence, not that he is violent or anything, but you know, he was in the military..........
He can kick me ass anyday. :D

Jesse Jackson convinced me to favor the Republicans. Gray Davis convinced me to favor the Republicans more. Then George W Bush convinced me to favor the Democrats. John Kerry convinced me to favor the Democrats more.

Jesse Jackson convincing you to favor Republicans... understandable
Gray Davis convincing you to favor Republicans... understandable
Bush convincing you to favor Democrats... mildly understandable
John Kerry convincing you to favor Democrast MORE!?!?!?
You're kidding, right? The guy's a retard. Anyone who's stupid enough to drop a grenade on himself, take some sharpnel, and then nominate HIMSELF for a purple heart (the guy has no shame), is not someone i would want running the country.

Well, when Kilobugya, Cat-Tribe, and Eutrusca actually tell me not to shut up despite the rambling, I guess I can just ramble on then. ;)

I obviously agree with Laenis that we're all hardwired in a way that accounts for our respective core beliefs/values. Not for the intricate whole that are our "political views" - those are built upon that moral groundwork by way of reason:So yes, it has to come to "feelings", to "guts", to some kind of "belief" when you want to think about what you want, and what you don't want. What reason is needed for is to ponder which ways, which decisions would move yourself closer to the goal.

But that basic groundwork is what I meant by "gut feeling", and that's what makes me empathize completely with a statement like this:
I am just disgusted at the idea of living in a liberatarian society. It just...ugh. That indefinable "ugh" is exactly what I was talking about - a libertarian could lay out his world view to me, brilliantly constructed arguments and all, and while I would maybe even be forced to reluctantly acknowledge a point or two (though I really doubt that :D), I'd never be able to agree with said world view, because - ugh, how could anybody possibly think that way?

Obviously, I'm aware that other people will feel that exact same incredulity and frustration towards my world view.

In "real life", this all means that I can of course "agree to disagree" with people - as long as we can put politics aside and ignore them and, if possible, never, ever talk about them again, at least not about anything more profound than quibbling with the day's headlines. Which, IMHO, doesn't work with people you spend a lot of time with and are interested in having meaningful discussions with. Which is why I can't imagine ever living with a guy whose political views (or, rather, whose political core beliefs & gut feelings ;)) greatly differ from mine. Haven't had to try it yet, though, so I may still have to eat my words.



In the example you use, that of Capital punishment, what of society's right to be free of fear and violence? It makes little sense to me to continue to provide food, clothing, shelter and free medical care to those who have "gone beyond the pale," so to speak, when it comes to extreme forms of behavior, especially violence ( murder, rape, child-molestation ).Heh, I knew I shouldn't have used CP as an example. ;)
Well, first I would point out to you that condemning someone to death and executing them burns a LOT more tax money than even keeping them in a cell for the rest of his natural life, as you Americans are so fond of doing.
But since your point may not be the actual cost involved so much as the mere fact of keeping them alive, it - tadaa - already has boiled down to those core beliefs. All I could tell you from where I stand is that you don't have to execute them in order for society to be "free of fear and violence". You lock them up. (Assuming, of course, you're only talking about the fear and violence caused by these offenders, not fear and violence in society as such; that'd be something else entirely.) But since you don't like to have them "merely" locked up, I'd have to say: that's all I can offer, tough luck & deal with it. Because there is really nowhere else for me to go here. When it comes to the basic, hardly formulated reasons for why I can't condone the death penalty, there is no wiggle room. I just can't.



And now for a quick rant on something completely different - this: Somebody once said every idealistic young person in high school or college that isn't a democrat doesn't have a heart. And every one who gets their first full time job that isn't a Republican doesn't have a brain.
I knew this was going to pop up somewhere in some variation. And to quote myself:And there's few things I hate more than the stupid saying
"If you're not a communist at 20, you have no heart.
If you're still a communist at 40, you have no brains."

Though I'm not a communist (and not 40 :eek: :p) I hate the condescending mockery of this almost as much as I hate the hypocrisy.
Well, the condescending mockery is obvious, but the hypocrisy seems to escape most people. What completely escapes me is how anyone could praise the compassionate idealism of youth and in the same breath kick it to the curb for the sake of - what? Money? Career? Self-interest? Survival of the fittest?

This isn't about communism or even about the Democrats, nor do I deny that your idealism is likely getting its blinders taken off somewhat as you get older - but that doesn't mean you have to like it, and it surely doesn't mean you have to do a 180 on everything that ever mattered to you just because society tells you it's not conducive to getting your piece of that great capitalist pie everybody seems so keen on. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

I killed the thread.

I didn't mean to, honest.

I killed the thread.

I didn't mean to, honest.

Was not your fault ;) threads tend to die by themselves, once everyone said what he wanted to.

And well, I mostly agree with you, so I don't have much to add ;) I tend to answer more to people I disagree with.

Cheer up, comrade ! Don't blame yourself needlessly. What you say is interesting IMHO, so don't feel bad about saying it :)

And well, I mostly agree with you, so I don't have much to add ;) I tend to answer more to people I disagree with.
Well, that's true. *off to compose long neoconservative rant* ;)

And now for a quick rant on something completely different - this:
I knew this was going to pop up somewhere in some variation. And to quote myself:
Well, the condescending mockery is obvious, but the hypocrisy seems to escape most people. What completely escapes me is how anyone could praise the compassionate idealism of youth and in the same breath kick it to the curb for the sake of - what? Money? Career? Self-interest? Survival of the fittest?


I might consider disco-dancing befitting a supple youth - but bad taste for a stiff middle aged man.
I might consider compassionate idealism befitting a callow youth but unsound judgement for a middle-aged man in whom I consider gravity and severity more befitting.

Then again, the original came from a certain fat german airforcemarshall not exactly known for making such distinctions...

I might consider disco-dancing befitting a supple youth - but bad taste for a stiff middle aged man.
I might consider compassionate idealism befitting a callow youth but unsound judgement for a middle-aged man in whom I consider gravity and severity more befitting.
The problem isn't that some people think compassionate idealism is unsound judgement for a middle-aged man (well, that is a problem, but it's not what I mean ;)), it's that it doesn't make sense for them to acknowledge at the same time that such compassionate idealism is indeed a good thing, a thing that evidences that you have a "heart".

People, if you think believing in communism (liberalism, Democrats, what have you) isn't worthwhile and doesn't speak well of one's intellectual capacities, then don't go around saying that it does make you a better person, but only until you're 20. That's bullshit.


Then again, the original came from a certain fat german airforcemarshall not exactly known for making such distinctions...
It did? I had no idea.

Does it? I consider 'more heart than brains' entirely fitting for youth, while 'more brains than heart' fitting for middle age.

Yep - the ever loyal Herman Goering.

My Dad had me leaning absent mindedly to the right. Sept. 11th, to the right I think.

Rage against the machine shook me to the left, and their web site had a book by Noam Chomsky on it, so I read that. I read Ayn Rand later on, became very libertarian-ish, but stayed on the left.

The infighting, sniping, pretentiousness, and social competitiveness of modern politics made me the Centrist I am today. The battle for politics shouldn't be one for superiority of ideas, but instead one for mutual agreeance.

Translation = Brainwashed by professor.

Translation= Never gone to college

I had to work 2 jobs(a FT sales job in a crappy cube farm and then 20 hrs a week as a bouncer in the evenings) and could barely pay my bills at the end of the month. One day I found myself in a grocery store trying to decide how much soup I should buy. If I bought enough to eat one meal a day, I wouldn't have enough gas to get to my 2 jobs.
I opened my wallet (to see if I had maybe miscounted my money or possibly a fairy had put some more in there) and saw my pay stub from my last check. My eyes were drawn to the income tax withheld line and I noticed that if the government hadn't taken my money away from me before I had a chance to get my hands on it, I wouldn't be having this pathetic debate with myself in the soup aisle.
That's when I really started to pay more attention to politics. And just in case anyone was wondering, I stole the soup.
1. Get a government with a better minimum wage.

2. Get a government who won't tax you if you're only working for the minimum wage.

3. Find another way of travelling other than by car. It's expensive. I suggest the bus, or if the distance is just a few miles, bicycle.

Welcome to Ireland.

Okay, here goes again, under the correct name...

I consider 'more heart than brains' entirely fitting for youth, while 'more brains than heart' fitting for middle age.
And put like that (i.e. a lot milder and more general without specific mention of specific politics) and as a descriptive (as opposed to prescriptive) statement, I actually would agree. Of course, I still prefer for adults to retain a healthy dose of idealism. :p

Yep - the ever loyal Herman Goering.
Ohh-kay. That one came out of nowhere. I have trouble believing that it would be used so commonly in Germany if it was actually a Göring quote, so I just spent some time on Google.
Turns out: Göring is pretty much the only one whom that quote isn't attributed to.

There doesn't seem to be any agreement on who really coined it, so my guess is it's just a piece of "folk wisdom" that got attributed to various famous figures over the years, such as:

Winston Churchill
Kurt Tucholsky (which I really don't see)
Oscar Heiler
George Bernhard Shaw
Theodor Fontane
Georges Clemenceau
Bertrand Russell
Benedetto Croce
Konrad Adenauer


[/off-topic-ness]

Translation = Brainwashed by professor.
As opposed to learning to think for yourself? :D
Real education is not brainwashing. Real education helps you think for yourself, whether it comes from parents, teachers or friends.

Depends upon where you get it and what you do with it after you've got it. :)
So you don't think Keruvalia did the right thing with his education. (Agree with you?)

Any education worth its cost will teach people not only "facts and opinions," but how to think and reason.
It's not possible that Keruvalia received this type of education?

For someone who knows how to think and reason, your posts are really full of contradictions.

There was a time when I wouldn't give anything to beggers, preferring to think that they would only spend it on drugs or alcohol.
Most beggars will do that. Sure, it will make you feel better to give them money, but you won't really help them. I only give money to the homeless via organised charities and I often give food to beggars, but never money.

Most people just want to live the way they want, without interference. A few people want to make other people live that way too. The latter are the enemy, no matter what party they hail from.
I don't see how any kind of governmental advocate can claim that their model doesn't tell people how to live to some degree. This goes for conservative, libertarian, socialist or any other kind of government.

Okay, here goes again, under the correct name...


And put like that (i.e. a lot milder and more general without specific mention of specific politics) and as a descriptive (as opposed to prescriptive) statement, I actually would agree. Of course, I still prefer for adults to retain a healthy dose of idealism. :p


Ohh-kay. That one came out of nowhere. I have trouble believing that it would be used so commonly in Germany if it was actually a Göring quote, so I just spent some time on Google.
Turns out: Göring is pretty much the only one whom that quote isn't attributed to.

There doesn't seem to be any agreement on who really coined it, so my guess is it's just a piece of "folk wisdom" that got attributed to various famous figures over the years, such as:

Winston Churchill
Kurt Tucholsky (which I really don't see)
Oscar Heiler
George Bernhard Shaw
Theodor Fontane
Georges Clemenceau
Bertrand Russell
Benedetto Croce
Konrad Adenauer


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I've grown ever more sceptical about the value of idealism over the years.
By now, it's a thing I tolerate in the young - but in no one else.
The milder version is the one I prefer. Can't say I care much for the original either.

The Clemenceau attribuition I've heard about. Not the others.

Growing up I flip-flopped back and forth until relizing that both are mostly full of sh!t. Moderation is so much easier and you almost never get called crazy.

Growing up I flip-flopped back and forth until relizing that both are mostly full of sh!t. Moderation is so much easier and you almost never get called crazy.

You demon-cursed crazy-as-a-dingbat Moderate!

when i started watching the news and listening to new reports and just getting mad at the holier-than-thou attitude of the vast majority of liberals.

Don't get me wrong, conservative news programming is idiotic too, but they at least aren't as condescending towards anyone who isn't what they are as the liberals are.