NationStates Jolt Archive

Not trying to start nationalism on either side, I just want to know how you view china and japan.

I obviously like modern Japan better, what with their personal freedoms and all, but thats just me.


Oh, and I enjoy the occaisonal game of ddr.

How can I add a poll into this? I messed up.

How can I add a poll into this? I messed up.

go to thread tools.

Japan is a friendly, but wierd, ultra-conformist democracy.

China is a not-quite-as-friendly, but wierd, ultra-conformist Confucicracy.

Japan seems to be more united, while China seems to be more divided. Of course, Japan was historically only fairly divided while China was pretty much entirely divided for much of their histories.

go to thread tools.


Thanks. You can vote now.

Both. I can't really decide although there was that damn kamikaze that prevented the Mongols from invading Japan. :(

I voted Japan. Why?

-Mongol pwnage. 'Nuff said.
-Ninja Pirates! Most feared pirates in the region came from Japan. Until 1615. :rolleyes:
-Inuyasha. I'm a fan-boi. So? You gotta problem?
-Sozubukuri naginata. A nasty, yet deliciously eloquent method for removing an opponents head from his shoulders....
-Weren't stupid enough to invade Vietnam until the 20th Century.
-It takes balls of steel to charge the men of the US Marine Corps with only a sword.
-Resisted the Western powers with the greatest success. Unfortunately, it turned Japan into an Imperialist power, but, eh. Freedom comes with its own price, I guess.

I voted Japan. Why?

-
-Inuyasha. I'm a fan-boi. So? You gotta problem?

Yes, I do.

Yes, I do.

The Great Compensator will pwn joo, n00b! ;)

The Great Compensator will pwn joo, n00b! ;)
I dont have a problem with anime, but I prefer to watch real anime (when I do, which is rarely) like Bleach.
Not noob stuff like Inuyasha that sells t-shirts at hot topic.

While Japan is socially and culturally akin to a Hello Kitty dildo, tehy at least make Transformers. Also contributing to their victory is how China can be the worst example of a few people running a whole mess of peoples' lives for the worse, and getting away with it because the other people in power would rather trade with them than with some harmless island that is only oppressed because it's easy and because no one wants to contradict JFK.

Im the only one to vote for China, I happen to like their food. They also benefit our economy, if they could only be a open society it would be great.

I dont have a problem with anime, but I prefer to watch real anime (when I do, which is rarely) like Bleach.
Not noob stuff like Inuyasha that sells t-shirts at hot topic.

'Parently you didn't get the joke.

But what point is there in insulting what I watch? Especially given that "real anime" would be anything that comes out of Japan. Kinda the definition, no? I don't think that IY is the best thing since sliced bread, but it amuses me. In a way that nothing else on TV does, and ergo I watch it. Even though the story sucks, the voice acting is less than perfect, and things generally don't make much sense (most of the time).

Im the only one to vote for China, I happen to like their food. They also benefit our economy, if they could only be a open society it would be great.



I am thinking friendly, I know what you mean by "open".

I think Japan has a few troubles...they are even more ethnocentric than the Chinese these days, they keep alienating their neighbours, and their economy is only now recovering, leaving behind a generation of pretty depressed kids.

China on the other hand has got a few structural problems, but at the moment the money to support itself. If their leadership handles it right, they could overcome them and take the superpower place.

I would say Japan. I like it as much as I do Germany.

'Parently you didn't get the joke.

But what point is there in insulting what I watch? Especially given that "real anime" would be anything that comes out of Japan. Kinda the definition, no? I don't think that IY is the best thing since sliced bread, but it amuses me. In a way that nothing else on TV does, and ergo I watch it. Even though the story sucks, the voice acting is less than perfect, and things generally don't make much sense (most of the time).


Most things from Japan don't make any sense. LOL! HELLO KITTY!

I think Japan has a few troubles...they are even more ethnocentric than the Chinese these days, they keep alienating their neighbours, and their economy is only now recovering, leaving behind a generation of pretty depressed kids.

China on the other hand has got a few structural problems, but at the moment the money to support itself. If their leadership handles it right, they could overcome them and take the superpower place.
True, unless China breaks up from within. Its hardly a paradise.

Most things from Japan don't make any sense. LOL! HELLO KITTY!

But more so than usual in this case....

Japan makes really cool video games.
China makes really big massacres.

I think Japan has a few troubles...they are even more ethnocentric than the Chinese these days, they keep alienating their neighbours, and their economy is only now recovering, leaving behind a generation of pretty depressed kids.

China on the other hand has got a few structural problems, but at the moment the money to support itself. If their leadership handles it right, they could overcome them and take the superpower place.


We are a proud people, millions of us feel very close to our culture and don't want to lose it.

We are a proud people, millions of us feel very close to our culture and don't want to lose it.
Agreed. A powerful economy is usually the best way to preserve this.

China on the other hand has got a few structural problems, but at the moment the money to support itself. If their leadership handles it right, they could overcome them and take the superpower place.
I prefer my superpowers to at least attempt a façade of personal freedom.

Agreed. A powerful economy is usually the best way to preserve this.



But being to open would kill it. Look at Europe.

I prefer my superpowers to at least attempt a façade of personal freedom.



Like america?

But being to open would kill it. Look at Europe.
Europe is not that "open" yet. It will be one day. I agree though, I hate the idea of uniculturalism. I wish there was a way to not open. Its economic suicide now though. It merely allows competitors to overtake you and sidetrack you.

I am thinking friendly, I know what you mean by "open".
You do know what I mean or you dont?

We are a proud people, millions of us feel very close to our culture and don't want to lose it.
Obviously (although as I understand it, you're in exile, meaning that you may well have a differing opinion from the people there).

But you run the risk of being left behind if you stay too traditionalist. And I'm really not a fan of the "Japanese Only" signs.

Obviously (although as I understand it, you're in exile, meaning that you may well have a differing opinion from the people there).

But you run the risk of being left behind if you stay too traditionalist. And I'm really not a fan of the "Japanese Only" signs.
That is the sad downside of protectionism. It can fossilise a country's economy.

Europe is not that "open" yet. It will be one day. I agree though, I hate the idea of uniculturalism. I wish there was a way to not open. Its economic suicide now though. It merely allows competitors to overtake you and sidetrack you.

Actually, there will probably be backlash against uniculturism (if such a thing ever takes hold), to the point where people today might refer to it as racism. Then we'll probably find some happy medium and stick to it, with people on both ends, and some swings back and forth, but nothing as major as the uniculturalism nor the ensuing reaction.

Japan, sure they brought us the horrors of anime, but they have a proud culture which they aren't afraid to keep pure in the face of political "multicultural" correctness... well, unless you mean 'pure' by cosmopolitan toy companies, bad game shows, etc, but ethnically pure anway. Also; Japanese Noise Music, my favorate genre of music (or noise, rather, favorite genre of noise). Also, part of the Axis, you've got to love openly anti-egalitarian statism; egalitarian statism is so cliche and self-affacing.

Europe is not that "open" yet. It will be one day. I agree though, I hate the idea of uniculturalism. I wish there was a way to not open. Its economic suicide now though. It merely allows competitors to overtake you and sidetrack you.



I hate that to, Believe it or not I love european culture. Its sad to see it fade away.:(

Obviously (although as I understand it, you're in exile, meaning that you may well have a differing opinion from the people there).

But you run the risk of being left behind if you stay too traditionalist. And I'm really not a fan of the "Japanese Only" signs.

Aren't the Japanese Only signs in place on public baths? I can understand that (to a certain extent) as foreigners usually don't know how to use the damned things, but... if they're also excluding Koreans and Americans (and Ainu) who have spent their entire lives in Japan and know what the proper etiquette is, then it's way too overboard.

Actually, there will probably be backlash against uniculturism (if such a thing ever takes hold), to the point where people today might refer to it as racism. Then we'll probably find some happy medium and stick to it, with people on both ends, and some swings back and forth, but nothing as major as the uniculturalism nor the ensuing reaction.
Even if it happens, humanity will regress to older economic/social systems, effectively reverting to tribalism, going full circle. Uniculturalism won't last long.

But being to open would kill it.
*Burinku burinku burinku* あの... Japan's entire history has been periods of opening itself up and taking in everything it can from outside countries, then closing itself off again to chew and make it Japanese. I mean, it has done this repeatedly over centuries. I doubt being open would kill off Japanese culture.

Besides, this is the country that got McDonalds to market shrimp burgers.

I hate that to, Believe it or not I love european culture. Its sad to see it fade away.:(
I agree. And, likewise, I love Japanese culture. Seeing Japan turn into some pale imitation of the USA would disgust me.

Obviously (although as I understand it, you're in exile, meaning that you may well have a differing opinion from the people there).

But you run the risk of being left behind if you stay too traditionalist. And I'm really not a fan of the "Japanese Only" signs.



I live in the USA, immigrated 18 years ago. Would love to go back.

I live in the USA, immigrated 18 years ago. Would love to go back.
Why can't you go back anyway?

Aren't the Japanese Only signs in place on public baths? I can understand that (to a certain extent) as foreigners usually don't know how to use the damned things, but... if they're also excluding Koreans and Americans (and Ainu) who have spent their entire lives in Japan and know what the proper etiquette is, then it's way too overboard.
There are in some places, and according to the owners, it's because Russian sailors cause problems or us gaijin scare away people.

Thankfully I've never seen them where I live, and no one blinks twice when I take my weekly bath (except for kids). I did manage to empty out a bath in Aichi-ken just by walking in.

I agree. And, likewise, I love Japanese culture. Seeing Japan turn into some pale imitation of the USA would disgust me.



Japan is there now, we are turning into a Japanese version of america. Not many places in Japan still survive with old time culture, like my hometown.

Why can't you go back anyway?



Can't pay for it.

There are in some places, and according to the owners, it's because Russian sailors cause problems or us gaijin scare away people.

Thankfully I've never seen them where I live, and no one blinks twice when I take my weekly bath (except for kids). I did manage to empty out a bath in Aichi-ken just by walking in.

The Infamous Gaijin Smash? ;)

There are in some places, and according to the owners, it's because Russian sailors cause problems or us gaijin scare away people.

Thankfully I've never seen them where I live, and no one blinks twice when I take my weekly bath (except for kids). I did manage to empty out a bath in Aichi-ken just by walking in.


Are you Japanese?

of course evryone here loves japan, they've grown up in a society revering the damn place. I myself have family there, but I prefer china. Not necessarily their goverment, they've made some horrible mistakes, though they take to the modernazation very well and are pushing the feats of engineering technolgy to the limits, it's more about their history.

Japan has done nothing throughout histroy, mongol pwange? i think not, a well timed typhoon is hardly pwange, its mere luck. never have they invented anything, the chinese were the ones with gunpowder,silk,antibiotics, and yes even the simple playing card (to name a small few). anyone that dared to invade them, may or may not of succeeded, they'd end up assimilated into their culture either way (the chinese were masters of assimilation, surpassing the romans by far) why else would europe go on the silk road to reach china and not to japan? because japan had nothing to offer that china didn't (well, until more modern times came around). And it's getting very annoying the way poel love this place because of some well drawn cartoons (anime). i mean, the german's give us the helicopter, rome gives us our frame of goverment, china invents gunpowder for christs's sake and we're impressed with cartoons?! (i'm from the U.S. by the by).

And even today china's doing things that are revolutionary, sure their goverment is opressive but it's still devolping, and it has done good to make up for the bad (mostly). But nonethless, japan sits there relying on america and we idolize these people like their soooooooooo superior to everyone else. Loved how their great samurai fighting spirit went out after WW2 and they bent over backwards for anything we asked. Wow, some fighting spirt, weres the honor now? What 2 A-bombs drop and you won't charge at us with swords anymore? Oh yes i'd like some sushi, and don't put to much soy sauce on it this time! China fights to the bitter end, albit unsuccsessfully, and we hold them in contempt. it sickens me, a nation thats makeing progress and here we sit worshipping the ones that are doing nothing but makeing our computers, and who's modern history was nothing but killing others, at least the chinese only killed their own in inhumane ways.

Japan is there now, we are turning into a Japanese version of america. Not many places in Japan still survive with old time culture, like my hometown.
Europe is still fairly European, although for how long this will last, who knows. I am not exactly a fan of large-scale globalisation, despite its economic benefits.

I agree. And, likewise, I love Japanese culture. Seeing Japan turn into some pale imitation of the USA would disgust me.

Not that I mean to point out the obvious, but....

Japan is exporting its culture as much as its importing it. And importing culture is an important aspect in defeating the racism inherent to human beings.

Currently I would rather live in Japan--currently.

But over all, China.

Why?

It would take too long to explain.

The Japanese are ....nice, I suppose.

The Chinese, as a people, are beautiful.

damn, that was a better way to put it i guess, instead of my long essay. damnit shoulda made it shorter.

Not that I mean to point out the obvious, but....

Japan is exporting its culture as much as its importing it. And importing culture is an important aspect in defeating the racism inherent to human beings.
The end result being a mish-mash of cultures which hardly resemble their original form. There are better ways of eliminating racism.

The end result being a mish-mash of cultures which hardly resemble their original form. There are better ways of eliminating racism.



I like education better. Teach them not to hate.

at least the chinese only killed their own in inhumane ways.

Isn't it more noble to fight and expand and do whats good for the honor of your own people? I'd much rather admire a nation whose concerned for themselves than for one that would destroy their own. I think making an enemy and fighting it for your own, is more noble than not hurting any others but in the end hurting those who are part of you.

I like education better. Teach them not to hate.
Agreed. Sacrificing culture just because its a catalyst in breeding racism is not acceptable.

if you call sawing millions of koreans and chinese open with saws to see how bacteria moves noble i highly question your intellegence. not to mention the millions of rapes, murders, etc. and really the nations as a whole wasn't all that responsible.. it's more mao's radical ideoligies (sp) fault, japan as a nation commited those atrocities during WW2, the communist party was responsible for the great leaps forward's famine and tiananmen square. my scorn goes to the goverment in that case, not the people.

I like education better. Teach them not to hate.

It would help if that worked, wouldn't it?

The end result being a mish-mash of cultures which hardly resemble their original form. There are better ways of eliminating racism.

Er... is it nessesarily a bad thing that our cultures will be mish-mashed together? It's not that I don't understand what you feel, it's just that I'd like to know what the bloody point is? One of the fundamental causes of war, as well as racism, is culture. How many lives is your culture worth?

if you call sawing millions of koreans and chinese open with saws to see how bacteria moves noble i highly question your intellegence.

The prime motivation is noble, little circumstances are just ad hominem.

The prime motivation is noble, little circumstances are just ad hominem.

The prime motivation was Japanese racial supremecy and a regional manifest destiny.

little circumstances? do you feel the same way about the nazi concentration camps?

And their prime motivation was to conquer the world and make japanese people a "superior race" which they already belivied themselves to be. is that so noble? the nazi's thought the same way, was their prime motiviation noble? now i highly question your intellegence. honestly, just because you love thier culture doesn't mean you should justify their wrong doings, i don't hold china exempt from theirs!

Er... is it nessesarily a bad thing that our cultures will be mish-mashed together? It's not that I don't understand what you feel, it's just that I'd like to know what the bloody point is? One of the fundamental causes of war, as well as racism, is culture. How many lives is your culture worth?
As if cultural differences are the prime reason for conflicts. Conflicts, armed or not, on any level, take place as a means of resolving differences, which can be of any nature, political, economic and so on. Racism and nationalism might be the vehicles used to motivate people to engage in the conflicts, but they are hardly at the core of the issue. Economics, on the other hand, usually play a much greater part.

I like the japanese tech and the fact that they have more freedoms than the chinese. But i also like the fact China is an asian tiger and is doing very well for itself.

As if cultural differences are the prime reason for conflicts. Conflicts, armed or not, on any level, take place as a means of resolving differences, which can be of any nature, political, economic and so on. Racism and nationalism might be the vehicles used to motivate people to engage in the conflicts, but they are hardly at the core of the issue. Economics, on the other hand, usually play a much greater part.

Economics are the primary cause, yes. But culture adds to that. You don't feel compelled to beat up your brother over money, do you? But someone who's different from you? Hell, yeah! You'd do it, especially if you felt you could win.

Beware of where you tread: Those who defend their cultures the loudest typically run around with "White Pride" shirts on (unless they aren't white, obviously).

I think Japan has a few troubles...they are even more ethnocentric than the Chinese these days, they keep alienating their neighbours, and their economy is only now recovering, leaving behind a generation of pretty depressed kids.

China on the other hand has got a few structural problems, but at the moment the money to support itself. If their leadership handles it right, they could overcome them and take the superpower place.

They aren't just alienating their neighbors on the continent, they're alienating the other ethnicities that share their island. The Koreans (most of whom were brought over during WWII) and the Ainu (the aboriginal Japanese) are treated as second class citizens (when they're lucky, anyway). Hell, most of the Koreans still aren't citizens! Which is to say nothing of the Japanese legal system, which doesn't include a jury system, and Japan's prisons are some other kind of disgusting.

I like China better for the following reasons
1. I am Chinese
2. Chinese food is good
3. China and India has the most economical potential right now
4. Chinese history is more interesting than most of the world

Someone posted before they like Japan because it's soldiers charged the allies with only swords I wonder if that person has ever seen chinese wars or seen the korean war. The tactics uses is basicly overwhelming the enemy who has superior weapons with sheer number of men.

I dislike Japan for the following reasons
1. they invaded my country
2. as I have heard there are a lot of japanese people that are hentai
3. they do not admit to the history of world war 2 most Japanese people say things like "thats right we invaded your fucking country. We had a right to. What are you going to do about it? We did not rape your women. We did not raze your cities and enslave your people. We did not capture your women and make them in to prostiudes for the army.
4. the government has bad attitudes. they even mentioned upgrading the their defence force i think its called in to army. If they had view the war like Germans the international community would be happy to life some restrictions and the asian people wouldn't be so pissed.

for the resons stated above I like China better

Japan.

1. Larger Navy. Rivals that of the US.
2. Higher quality manufacturing.
3. Military Tradition (Yes. Japan is one of the few countries that still has a military tradition).
4. Better Airforce.
5. Better armor (I think they have the...."Heavy Defence Vehicle." Or the m1)

And
Shen-Ru-Xin

Yes, they were hit by two atomic bombs. And for your information, the Japanese people were more than willing to fight it out to the end. In fact, many of the high ranking generals wanted to fight. Furthermore, America had not anticipated the Japanese surrender. More or less, they were going to launch a costly invasion against Japan. The Prime Minister decided to end the war, because he realized that the Japanese people would not surrender. He did it for the people. Otherwise, the Japanese population would fight to the death.

As for testing on the people, I have no opinion on this. Sure, it is horrible, and should not be done. But the highly accurate data produced through it actually scares me a little...

Oh yeah, and for the government having a bad attitude.
You have no idea how many hissy fits the Chinese government have thrown at Taiwan when it comes to becoming an independent nation.

Or when Taiwan wants a bunch of new Battle Ships. Might I add, there are several nukes pointed to that Island?

I voted for China, not because I'm Chinese, but because:

1. EVERYTHING, thats right, everything of Japanese culture is copied from Chinese customs when they broke apart from China in the BC's.

2. Animation, such as Pokemon and Inyuasha, have Chinese producers in which they MAKE the animation happen. It's the Japanese who drew the pictures.

3. At least the Chinese are not Imperialist, meaning they're not hungry for land, unlike Japan. During the Chinese [Civil War] Revolution, they caused the Nanjing Massacre.

4. Chinese are honest, not liars like Japanese. Japanese Prime Minister Junchiro changed Japanese textbooks about their aggression toward their neighbors in Asia.

5. China and Japan both have Democracy. Who says China doesn't have democracy? They voted for their Chinese Leader, Hu Jintao.

6. Us, Chinese, invented paper, gunpowder, and the first gun.

7. China is one of the oldest, most civilized civiliazation thats in Asia, with Europe.

8. Most Japanese food were derived from the Chinese. Such as Tofu and Sushi.

9. China helps US with their economy.

10. China has a bigger military. If Japan and China waged war, one on one, China would win. They have nukes.

I voted for China, not because I'm Chinese, but because:

4. Chinese are honest, not liars like Japanese. Japanese Prime Minister Junchiro changed Japanese textbooks about their aggression toward their neighbors in Asia.

5. China and Japan both have Democracy. Who says China doesn't have democracy? They voted for their Chinese Leader, Hu Jintao.

10. China has a bigger military. If Japan and China waged war, one on one, China would win. They have nukes.

Japan has breeder reactors. And from what I know, a breeder reactor can create weapons grade uranium in a very short amount of time. The only thing holding Japan back from creating nukes is the fact that we won't allow them.

Japan has a larger navy.

And finally, China has a closed society. Which basically makes me want to vote Japan more. As for the honesty of the Chinese people, add on, "censorship of the internet."

Economics are the primary cause, yes. But culture adds to that. You don't feel compelled to beat up your brother over money, do you? But someone who's different from you? Hell, yeah! You'd do it, especially if you felt you could win.

Beware of where you tread: Those who defend their cultures the loudest typically run around with "White Pride" shirts on (unless they aren't white, obviously).
And by eliminating cultures you eliminate differences? Simplistic reasoning. Why? New cultures will form in the place of old ones. Even if culture is homogeneised, new groupings will appear. As for your cited example, it could easily transcend culture. If one black person is very wealthy say, and another poorer one feels envious of their wealth, its likely they won't hesitate to get it out of them. Same with people of any colour. Getting rid of culture will do nothing. Its counter-productive. Unless you replace it with the notion that not only is everyone equal, but they are also the same. A statement untrue of human nature.

Japan.

1. Larger Navy. Rivals that of the US.
2. Higher quality manufacturing.
3. Military Tradition (Yes. Japan is one of the few countries that still has a military tradition).
4. Better Airforce.
5. Better armor (I think they have the...."Heavy Defence Vehicle." Or the m1)

And
Shen-Ru-Xin

Yes, they were hit by two atomic bombs. And for your information, the Japanese people were more than willing to fight it out to the end. In fact, many of the high ranking generals wanted to fight. Furthermore, America had not anticipated the Japanese surrender. More or less, they were going to launch a costly invasion against Japan. The Prime Minister decided to end the war, because he realized that the Japanese people would not surrender. He did it for the people. Otherwise, the Japanese population would fight to the death.

As for testing on the people, I have no opinion on this. Sure, it is horrible, and should not be done. But the highly accurate data produced through it actually scares me a little...

Oh yeah, and for the government having a bad attitude.
You have no idea how many hissy fits the Chinese government have thrown at Taiwan when it comes to becoming an independent nation.

Or when Taiwan wants a bunch of new Battle Ships. Might I add, there are several nukes pointed to that Island?



You are wrong. China is better, because they have nuclear weapons. Japan signed a treaty to the World that they will not produce nuclear weapons.




www.sinodefence.com

A unofficial website of Chinese Defence Forces.

1. EVERYTHING, thats right, everything of Japanese culture is copied from Chinese customs when they broke apart from China in the BC's.
Japan still developed its very own distinct culture.

3. At least the Chinese are not Imperialist, meaning they're not hungry for land, unlike Japan. During the Chinese [Civil War] Revolution, they caused the Nanjing Massacre.

A hunger for fuel and resources is the alternative. China doesn't need land, like Japan. It needs fuel for its economy.

4. Chinese are honest, not liars like Japanese. Japanese Prime Minister Junchiro changed Japanese textbooks about their aggression toward their neighbors in Asia.
And of course this makes all Japanese liars? :rolleyes:


5. China and Japan both have Democracy. Who says China doesn't have democracy? They voted for their Chinese Leader, Hu Jintao.
So because they elect their leader they are a democracy? Hitler was elected. No. Democracy means the people actually have substantial freedoms and rights. There is little such thing in China.

6. Us, Chinese, invented paper, gunpowder, and the first gun.
This is something to be proud of? :rolleyes:

9. China helps US with their economy.
So does Japan. It does a lot of trade with the USA.

10. China has a bigger military. If Japan and China waged war, one on one, China would win. They have nukes.
I seriously doubt that. Chinese spending on its military accounts for a tiny proportion of its GDP. The use of nukes would be frowned upon
and would be likely to affect China due to Japan's geographical proximity to it. China would become a pariah, its economy being devastated. Wow. Clever move.

You are wrong. China is better, because they have nuclear weapons. Japan signed a treaty to the World that they will not produce nuclear weapons.




www.sinodefence.com

A unofficial website of Chinese Defence Forces.


I know that Japan doesn't have nukes. However, using a nuke would serverely aggravate the UN. And Japan can produce a nuke on short notice, as I have stated before, Japan owns Breeder Reactors.

And finally, China has a closed society. Which basically makes me want to vote Japan more. As for the honesty of the Chinese people, add on, "censorship of the internet."

Well having no freedom on the net is good. Government approved sites, which will keep identity thefts low. Other than that, Chinese people can have freedom on the net. It's just not in public places.

And finally, China has a closed society. Which basically makes me want to vote Japan more. As for the honesty of the Chinese people, add on, "censorship of the internet."

Well having no freedom on the net is good. Government approved sites, which will keep identity thefts low. Other than that, Chinese people can have freedom on the net. It's just not in public places. Just look in Hong Kong.

Well having no freedom on the net is good. Government approved sites, which will keep identity thefts low. Other than that, Chinese people can have freedom on the net. It's just not in public places.

Er.....You're kidding right?

Er.....You're kidding right?

Americans think Chinese has no freedom in the Internet. That is true in PUBLIC areas. I've been to China and I've gotten access to many websites that I've gotten to here, in California.

The only sites I never can get access are the websites that contain programs that disrupt security. Such as www.myg0t.com, a hacking clan for Counter-Strike. They block them so that it can reduce the crime rates on the Net.

Japan still developed its very own distinct culture.


A hunger for fuel and resources is the alternative. China doesn't need land, like Japan. It needs fuel for its economy.


And of course this makes all Japanese liars? :rolleyes:



So because they elect their leader they are a democracy? Hitler was elected. No. Democracy means the people actually have substantial freedoms and rights. There is little such thing in China.


This is something to be proud of? :rolleyes:


So does Japan. It does a lot of trade with the USA.


I seriously doubt that. Chinese spending on its military accounts for a tiny proportion of its GDP. The use of nukes would be frowned upon
and would be likely to affect China due to Japan's geographical proximity to it. China would become a pariah, its economy being devastated. Wow. Clever move.


1. Japan didn't develop their culture. Like I said, they copied it from Chinese customs, but they claimed it theirs.

2. It makes Japanese liars because the majority of Japanese in Japan voted for the change in textbooks about Japanese aggression.

3. Inventing paper and gunpowder is something to be proud of. Tell me something that Japan has invented and has now been used frequently in the world.

4. About the war, Japan and China: If they went to war, it would devestate China's economy, but not all of it. Just the economy it has with the US. They also have an economy with Russia, and those other countries in Europe. Japan may have a good airforce, but China has one of the world's top naval forces, as well as Ground forces.

Americans think Chinese has no freedom in the Internet. That is true in PUBLIC areas. I've been to China and I've gotten access to many websites that I've gotten to here, in California.

The only sites I never can get access are the websites that contain programs that disrupt security. Such as www.myg0t.com, a hacking clan for Counter-Strike. They block them so that it can reduce the crime rates on the Net.

Wouldn't it make more sense to re-vamp the internet servers instead of blocking sites? The Internet wasn't created to be secure. It was more or less an information sharing thing for colleges. It just turned into the internet as we know it today. Which is why l0pht bragged they could take the net down in like...20 minutes.

now THAT
Would put a stop to net crime.

Wouldn't it make more sense to re-vamp the internet servers instead of blocking sites? The Internet wasn't created to be secure. It was more or less an information sharing thing for colleges. It just turned into the internet as we know it today. Which is why l0pht bragged they could take the net down in like...20 minutes.

now THAT
Would put a stop to net crime.

Well, it would have been better, but I guess the Chinese blocked so much, that they should just keep it besides changing it all over again.

Well, it would have been better, but I guess the Chinese blocked so much, that they should just keep it besides changing it all over again.

-_-...........................................

1. Japan didn't develop their culture. Like I said, they copied it from Chinese customs, but they claimed it theirs.
Actually, from the late 10th century and on, it did. Japan became very insular, altering many of its customs and inventing new ones. Japanese culture, you will recognise, is very different to the Chinese one; if it were a mere copy, this would not be so.

2. It makes Japanese liars because the majority of Japanese in Japan voted for the change in textbooks about Japanese aggression.
Though this make them nationalist, it hardly makes the common Japanese person a liar. Their society is very honour and tradition bound.

3. Inventing paper and gunpowder is something to be proud of. Tell me something that Japan has invented and has now been used frequently in the world.
Both inventions happened at random and were not the result of the imperial government's planning. As for gunpowder, please. All its done has led to the creation of more lethal weapons. Wow. Impressive.

Japan is a huge innovator in electronics and technology.

4. About the war, Japan and China: If they went to war, it would devestate China's economy, but not all of it. Just the economy it has with the US. They also have an economy with Russia, and those other countries in Europe. Japan may have a good airforce, but China has one of the world's top naval forces, as well as Ground forces.
And you assume the US, Australia, the EU and other nations will not help Japan or even ensure that China suffers for its actions? No one will allow China to simply use nuclear weapons and get away with it.

The Infamous Gaijin Smash? ;)
Nope, it'd make sense if I was trying to smash something, but it was early in the morning after visiting AichiExpo and a night filled with lots of beer. The only thing I was interested in was taking a long hot soak while enjoying the view of the ocean before breakfast.

But the minute I walked in I started getting all sorts of looks. When I started to wash, I heard lots of whispers, most containing "gaijin" in it. And when I finally got into the ofuro itself, the three guys in there quickly got out and no one who was washing got into the bath until I left.

I was seriously annoyed as I have NEVER had that reaction at home in Nagano-ken, and I'm in a much smaller town than the one I was staying in.

Are you Japanese?
I'm American, I just live and work in Japan (Though if you ask my co-workers and my fiancee, they swear that I'm actually Japanese. My being born in America and being white was a mistake somewhere down the line ;) ).

I'm American, I just live and work in Japan (Though if you ask my co-workers and my fiancee, they swear that I'm actually Japanese. My being born in America and being white was a mistake somewhere down the line ;) ).



Why are you in Japan? Japan is 99% Japanese so there aren't many non-Japanese there. Most whites who are there from america are in the military.


Can we stop the anti-japanese racism now please.

Why are you in Japan? Japan is 99% Japanese so there aren't many non-Japanese there. Most whites who are there from america are in the military.


Can we stop the anti-japanese racism now please.
I think he was trying to say he should have been born Japanese. :p

I would agree though, all this slandering of Japan is becoming quite tiresome, especially since its unmerited.

Japan has done nothing throughout histroy, mongol pwange? i think not, a well timed typhoon is hardly pwange, its mere luck. never have they invented anything, the chinese were the ones with gunpowder,silk,antibiotics, and yes even the simple playing card (to name a small few).
You need to study history more. The Japanese have invented many things throughout their history as well. Probably the most famous would be the first novel in the world, The Tale of Genji, that was NOT from China.

anyone that dared to invade them, may or may not of succeeded, they'd end up assimilated into their culture either way (the chinese were masters of assimilation, surpassing the romans by far) why else would europe go on the silk road to reach china and not to japan? because japan had nothing to offer that china didn't (well, until more modern times came around).
Actually it's more due to no deep rivers. You can sail into the heart of China, you cannot do so in Japan, making it MUCH easier to defend Japan. Gee, wonder if that has anything to do with Japan escaping being colonized and divided up like a turkey by Western Powers?

And even today china's doing things that are revolutionary, sure their goverment is opressive but it's still devolping, and it has done good to make up for the bad (mostly). But nonethless, japan sits there relying on america and we idolize these people like their soooooooooo superior to everyone else. Loved how their great samurai fighting spirit went out after WW2 and they bent over backwards for anything we asked.
Second largest economy in the world. World leader for R&D. World leader in robotics. World leader in green technology. Ect, etc, ect.

Wow, some fighting spirt, weres the honor now? What 2 A-bombs drop and you won't charge at us with swords anymore? Oh yes i'd like some sushi, and don't put to much soy sauce on it this time!
Anyone who thinks that the Yamato Spirit has died has not been in Japan as of late.

China fights to the bitter end, albit unsuccsessfully,
BWAHAHAHAHA! You REALLY think that's the case? Fight to the bitter end, really? China has been very strong at times, but at others has rolled over.

it sickens me, a nation thats makeing progress and here we sit worshipping the ones that are doing nothing but makeing our computers, and who's modern history was nothing but killing others,
Japan has done far more than just killed others in modern history. Japan's modern history neither started, nor stopped, with WWII or the Sino-Japanese war. Try actually studying history, not reading the PRC propaganda.

at least the chinese only killed their own in inhumane ways.
Where the HELL have you been? Koreans are not Chinese, Tibetans are not Chinese, Indians are SURE as hell not Chinese, the muslim population of Xinjan is not (Han) Chinese. And believe me, they have not been treated nicely by the Chinese.

And that's not to mention what China did in the past.

I voted for China, not because I'm Chinese, but because:

1. EVERYTHING, thats right, everything of Japanese culture is copied from Chinese customs when they broke apart from China in the BC's.

2. Animation, such as Pokemon and Inyuasha, have Chinese producers in which they MAKE the animation happen. It's the Japanese who drew the pictures.

3. At least the Chinese are not Imperialist, meaning they're not hungry for land, unlike Japan. During the Chinese [Civil War] Revolution, they caused the Nanjing Massacre.

4. Chinese are honest, not liars like Japanese. Japanese Prime Minister Junchiro changed Japanese textbooks about their aggression toward their neighbors in Asia.

5. China and Japan both have Democracy. Who says China doesn't have democracy? They voted for their Chinese Leader, Hu Jintao.

6. Us, Chinese, invented paper, gunpowder, and the first gun.

7. China is one of the oldest, most civilized civiliazation thats in Asia, with Europe.

8. Most Japanese food were derived from the Chinese. Such as Tofu and Sushi.

9. China helps US with their economy.

10. China has a bigger military. If Japan and China waged war, one on one, China would win. They have nukes.


People like you are the reason why relations between Japan and China are so cold. 10 is no reason to brag, get over yourself. 4 is racist, calling somebody a liar because of their race is ignorant, 3 go ahead and name the last time Japan did anything aggressive? Japan didn't have any military over seas for over 55 years, Iraq was our first since the end of world war 2. You are obviously a nationalist and one of the main I still have problems with the chinese.

For your info Japan has been a nation since 660 BC, traditional founding by Emperor JIMMU. Japan helps the US to in reality the US exports more to Japan then to China. We also have a stronger economy and unlike you we didn't kill 20 million of our own people.;)


BTW, Unlike China the americans like us.:)

I think he was trying to say he should have been born Japanese. :p

I would agree though, all this slandering of Japan is becoming quite tiresome, especially since its unmerited.



I know, I just asked why he worked in Japan.

Both are nice countries, and both have their problems. East Asians in general tend to be too nationalistic and prideful.

Japan.. My aunt who lives there buys me nice stuff.

Japan.. My aunt who lives there buys me nice stuff.



Your aunt is Japanese?

China, because I prefer that we ally ourselves with a nation that could make the world alittle safer instead of two superpowers glaring down at each other. The US should try to get on China's good side, and encourage treaties and alliances instead of us allying ourselves with a good but not as great Japan. Plus China just kicks Japan's ass 150%.

Reminder to you, I am in the US Army. So that should tell you something.

Your aunt is Japanese?
No. She's a New Zealander who is a librarian at some school. She might teach a little English too, not sure.

I dislike Japan for the following reasons
1. they invaded my country
And China invaded (well, tried to) theirs, your point?
2. as I have heard there are a lot of japanese people that are hentai
Considering the problem with female trafficing that China currently faces, I'm not sure that's a good point. In any case, no, not all people, or even most people, in Japan are hentai.

3. they do not admit to the history of world war 2 most Japanese people say things like "thats right we invaded your fucking country. We had a right to. What are you going to do about it? We did not rape your women. We did not raze your cities and enslave your people. We did not capture your women and make them in to prostiudes for the army.
No, most people DO NOT state that. Right wing nut cases do so. The state controlled Chinese media tend to focus on them for some reason. MOST Japanese are well aware of what happened and admit it.

4. the government has bad attitudes. they even mentioned upgrading the their defence force i think its called in to army. If they had view the war like Germans the international community would be happy to life some restrictions and the asian people wouldn't be so pissed.
No, the Self Defence Force (SDF) will not magically be changed back into the Imperial Japanese Army. The idea is to designate the SDF as Japan's military force, answerable to the Prime Minister (not free like it was last time), and allow the right of collctive self-defence, which currently Japan is unable to do. The re-writing of article 9 would not remove the "Japan renouces war as a right of the state forever", it would just add that 1. Japan as the right to self defence and to maintain a military force for that purpose alone. 2. Japan as the right to collective self defence. The SDF is reconised as Japan's military forces, is under civilan control, and is answerable to the Prime Minister.


1. EVERYTHING, thats right, everything of Japanese culture is copied from Chinese customs when they broke apart from China in the BC's.
One, Japan did not "break away" from China. China never controlled Japan, nor was it ever a Chinese provence. 2. Japan has devloped its own culture independant of China. Many things have come from China, true, but most of that has been changed to suit Japanese tastes. Also, many things have been devloped in Japan, by Japanese. Again, see the Tale of Genji, China didn't write that.

2. Animation, such as Pokemon and Inyuasha, have Chinese producers in which they MAKE the animation happen. It's the Japanese who drew the pictures.
Translation: Some animation studios use Chinese workers, or have bases in China for background drawings. The majority of the work is still done in Japan. And Takahashi Rumiko IS Japanese.

3. At least the Chinese are not Imperialist, meaning they're not hungry for land, unlike Japan. During the Chinese [Civil War] Revolution, they caused the Nanjing Massacre.
BWAHAHA! Read Chinese history! It has been grabbing land all through its years! Most reciently, look at Tibet and India.

4. Chinese are honest, not liars like Japanese. Japanese Prime Minister Junchiro changed Japanese textbooks about their aggression toward their neighbors in Asia.
Bull shit. Koizumi did NOT change Japanese textbooks. Sorry, that was a group dedicated to historical revision. It's used in less than 1% of the Japanese junior high schools. Gee, if Japan is so mean, do you think that it was the Chinese and Korean protests that led to the poor showing, or the fact that Japanese all over the damn country were protesting at school board meetings if it was suggested that this books was used.

5. China and Japan both have Democracy. Who says China doesn't have democracy? They voted for their Chinese Leader, Hu Jintao.
Seriously, you're on the CCP's payroll, aren't you?

7. China is one of the oldest, most civilized civiliazation thats in Asia, with Europe.
Uh... ok... Old yes, and at times the best in the world. Most civillized... that's an interesting point of view from a country that reguarly uses torture.

Japanese food is based off of Chinese food *sic*
Bull shit, the two are not related to each other.

9. China helps US with their economy.
And so does Japan. And Japan has helped the Chinese economy tremendously.

10. China has a bigger military. If Japan and China waged war, one on one, China would win. They have nukes.
China has a bigger military, Japan's is better funded, equiped, and trained. If China started dropping nukes though, America would respond in kind.

CCP proaganda folks.

People like you are the reason why relations between Japan and China are so cold. 10 is no reason to brag, get over yourself. 4 is racist, calling somebody a liar because of their race is ignorant, 3 go ahead and name the last time Japan did anything aggressive? Japan didn't have any military over seas for over 55 years, Iraq was our first since the end of world war 2. You are obviously a nationalist and one of the main I still have problems with the chinese.

For your info Japan has been a nation since 660 BC, traditional founding by Emperor JIMMU. Japan helps the US to in reality the US exports more to Japan then to China. We also have a stronger economy and unlike you we didn't kill 20 million of our own people.;)


BTW, Unlike China the americans like us.:)


1. Was Japanese forces over seas over 55 years? They have forces in Iraq. They invaded China, or tried to, during the WWII.

Blah.. I'm busy right now I'll get back to you later.

I voted for China, not because I'm Chinese, but because:

1. EVERYTHING, thats right, everything of Japanese culture is copied from Chinese customs when they broke apart from China in the BC's.
Not to mention Japan also copied Korean customs too.
2. Animation, such as Pokemon and Inyuasha, have Chinese producers in which they MAKE the animation happen. It's the Japanese who drew the pictures.Half of Anime cartoons are annoying. Please don't mention about Pokemon and Inyuasha, it makes me sick.
3. At least the Chinese are not Imperialist, meaning they're not hungry for land, unlike Japan. During the Chinese [Civil War] Revolution, they caused the Nanjing Massacre.agreed.
4. Chinese are honest, not liars like Japanese. Japanese Prime Minister Junchiro changed Japanese textbooks about their aggression toward their neighbors in Asia.It's true that the Japanese gov't are not very honest. But the Chinese gov't, not sure about their honesty. Problem with them is the Tiananmen Square Massacure is not in a Chinese history text book.
5. China and Japan both have Democracy. Who says China doesn't have democracy? They voted for their Chinese Leader, Hu Jintao.China don't have a full blown democracy like Canada and the US. China do have municipal elections, but Hu Jintao got elected president by the MPs in the NPC, not the general public. Also the Communist Party is the only legal party in China, other parties are banned.
6. Us, Chinese, invented paper, gunpowder, and the first gun.yep, but I'm not sure about the gun itself
7. China is one of the oldest, most civilized civiliazation thats in Asia, with Europe.correct.
8. Most Japanese food were derived from the Chinese. Such as Tofu and Sushi.agreed. I don't know the sushi part.
9. China helps US with their economy.or vice versa.
10. China has a bigger military. If Japan and China waged war, one on one, China would win. They have nukes.Pretty much, but the military at this point are at the process of modernization. I belive Japan got a better military equiptment but their constitution barred them from raising a bigger military. Oh well, china pwns japan anyway.

Not to mention Japan also copied Korean customs too.
Japan did develop its own culture too though. Don't make it seem as if Japan is merely a copy of Korea and China. Its not.

Have of Anime cartoons are annoying. Please don't mention about Pokemon and Inyuasha, it makes me sick.
Very subjective opinion. Some Anime, like Princess Mononoke or Ghost Shell is excellent, and even went on to win Oscars.

I find Japan to be one of the most facinating nations upon the face of the world with a culture that seems almost extra-terrestial in it's extremes and the people themselves are very friendly though their extreme politeness borders the non-sensical ( Point taken though that in their eyes people from the west might seem borish).

That being said their shared history with china in a cultural sense is undeniable and most of their architecture from the pre-meji era is based upon the Tang dynasty (Even the Haiku, that very epitome of japanese poetry has it's roots in china, though the Japanese did perfect it).

Not even to be mention that very fabric that binds eastern-asian society, namely the principals of Confuscius is (obviously) chinese.

This however isn't strange when you consider that china was a constant factor of regional power while Japan remained in constant strife until the modern era. Therefor China affects Japan as much as the Romans affected, for example Germany.

Also a point to be mentioned is their, in my opinion, flawed maner in handling their second world war past. While the Germans are at times needlessly bombarded with war guilt the Japanese seem to lack it almost entirely. While China on the other hand needs halt their needless adressal of this issue, the Japanese on their side need to halt their role as a victim they have cloaked themselves into due to the Bomb.

In conclusion to anwser the question of this thread I find both nations to be highly fascinating in their unique cultural heritage but that pretty much goes for almost every culture.

Japan has done nothing throughout histroy, mongol pwange? i think not, a well timed typhoon is hardly pwange, its mere luck.

A closer look at the history will tell us that while the first attempted invasion was destroyed at sea, the second made land fall. In the second invasion, the Japanese, launching night raids from ships against the Mongolian vessels that were at anchor, and setting them aflame, made their initial advances too costly. Thus, they fell back.

why else would europe go on the silk road to reach china and not to japan? because japan had nothing to offer that china didn't (well, until more modern times came around).

Actually, it's because the Mongol Khans controlled the Silk Road and the Europeans who trod it were largely doing so at the behest of the Mongols. Given that Mongolia tried to invade Japan twice, it is only natural that they wouldn't allow the Mongols to go to Japan. Marco Polo, in fact, wanted to go to Japan, but the Khan would not allow it.

In specific, Japan had rose pearls that were much desired by the West, but were in poor supply because of the sour relations between Japan and the Khans. In other years, the Chinese would import Japanese-made swords (you know, the same cheap-ass swords that the West imports now for something along to the tune of $100 a piece), because they believed them to be superior to their own.

And it's getting very annoying the way poel love this place because of some well drawn cartoons (anime). i mean, the german's give us the helicopter, rome gives us our frame of goverment, china invents gunpowder for christs's sake and we're impressed with cartoons?! (i'm from the U.S. by the by).

And the Mongols gave us paper money, a moveable type printing press, and guns, but no one seems to want to thank them for that.

And even today china's doing things that are revolutionary, sure their goverment is opressive but it's still devolping, and it has done good to make up for the bad (mostly).

Real change in China will not occur until the people of China have another revolutionary to look up to. One who sees that the Mao Dynasty has lost the Mandate of Heaven.

But nonethless, japan sits there relying on america and we idolize these people like their soooooooooo superior to everyone else.

And they do the same to us. Your point?

<snip>

The rest of this is pretty much racist drivel, which I will not grace with a response.

Why are you in Japan? Japan is 99% Japanese so there aren't many non-Japanese there. Most whites who are there from america are in the military.
I teach English in a public junior high school in a small town in Nagano-ken. I'm here on behalf of the JET Programme, which sticks people from some 64 countries throughout Japan.

1. Japan didn't develop their culture. Like I said, they copied it from Chinese customs, but they claimed it theirs.

Japanese culture is uniquely Japanese, just as American culture is uniquely American. The last time Japan made any major import of culture from China it was in the 11th Century: one thousand years ago.

2. It makes Japanese liars because the majority of Japanese in Japan voted for the change in textbooks about Japanese aggression.

While Chinese textbooks speak of nothing about the Tianamen Square Massacre. Nothing of the massacres of Buddhist monks. Nothing of the Great Leap Forward's ill aspects. Nothing of the unwarranted invasions of Tibet. Japan may have blood on their hands, but they've completely disavowed violence and militarism. The blood on China's hands is much fresher, still flows, and the PRC openly embraces militarism.

3. Inventing paper and gunpowder is something to be proud of. Tell me something that Japan has invented and has now been used frequently in the world.

Paper was used by the Egyptians in 3000 BC. Unless you're telling me that the Chinese sent samples of it to the Egyptians....

And gun-powder was a world-wide phenomonen. Everyone had different forms of it. In the Byzantine Empire, it took the form of "Greek Fire". In Ancient Persia, it took the form of primitive flame-throwers. In ancient Rome, it was used as an incindiery round used by ballistae.

It was not until the Mongols conquered the Chinese that gun-powder took its modern form.

4. About the war, Japan and China: If they went to war, it would devestate China's economy, but not all of it. Just the economy it has with the US. They also have an economy with Russia, and those other countries in Europe. Japan may have a good airforce, but China has one of the world's top naval forces, as well as Ground forces.

China? Navy? Chinese Navy? The Chinese have not had a significant ocean-going presence since the early 1400s and Admiral Zhang He's expeditions to Africa. The People's Liberation Army is nothing to scoff at: it is the world's largest army. But it is not one of the best. The JSDF got more expirience as a medical aid unit in Iraq than the PLA got from subjugating Tibet.

yep, but I'm not sure about the gun itself
Kinda, China developed cannon and a very, very primitive gun. It was guns going to Europe where they were devloped far better than anything China ever came up with. Interestingly, guns were tradded to Japan, who took them and make better weapons than the Europeans. However, the idea of a pesant killing a samurai made the Tokugawa goverment edgy for some reason. Guns were outlawed and the technologies forgotten to the point that by the time Commodor Perry showed up, no one was quite sure how to use them any more. Japan is the only nation in history that got the firearm genie back into its bottle.

agreed. I don't know the sushi part.
No... RICE was introduced to Japan from China (via Korea as usual), but Japanese food depends far more on sea food than Chinese fair, not to mention Chinese food loves spices, whereas Japanese is far more subbtle (and to Americans used to food that assults the taste buds, tastes bland).

Paper was used by the Egyptians in 3000 BC. Unless you're telling me that the Chinese sent samples of it to the Egyptians....

The Egyptians made a writing material from papyrus, a plant limited to the Mediterranean era. Chinese first invented paper, made out of wood. Paper is a more advanced material than papyrus, cheaper and more efficiently produced.


And gun-powder was a world-wide phenomonen. Everyone had different forms of it. In the Byzantine Empire, it took the form of "Greek Fire". In Ancient Persia, it took the form of primitive flame-throwers. In ancient Rome, it was used as an incindiery round used by ballistae.

Greek Fire was not gunpowder, it was a non-explosive napalm-like substance. Ancient incindiery devices were mostly made out of tar and oils, and did not explode. Any historian will tell you that Chinese invented gunpowder - which is an explosive.


It was not until the Mongols conquered the Chinese that gun-powder took its modern form.

That doesn't change the fact that Chinese invented gunpowder, and even after China was conquered, it was mainly Chinese technicians who built the cannons and produced the gunpowder for the Mongol forces.

I'm not a Chinese nationalist by any means, I'm just clearing up some total historical falsehoods that you are presenting.

Half of Anime cartoons are annoying. Please don't mention about Pokemon and Inyuasha, it makes me sick.

Never mind the fact that China makes even more annoying rip-offs of anime. Anime, unlike it's bastardized Chinese cousin, at least has an international audience.

agreed.

The Chinese are imperialistic. You think that Tibet shot their own monks and leaders and said, "Heil Mao!"?

It's true that the Japanese gov't are not very honest. But the Chinese gov't, not sure about their honesty. Problem with them is the Tiananmen Square Massacure is not in a Chinese history text book.

No government is honest. And that's the honest truth.

China don't have a full blown democracy like Canada and the US. China do have municipal elections, but Hu Jintao got elected president by the MPs in the NPC, not the general public. Also the Communist Party is the only legal party in China, other parties are banned.

So what you're telling us is that the Chinese get to pick from two candidates selected by the party that runs China? Not much of a choice, is it?

yep, but I'm not sure about the gun itself

The gun powder (in its modern form) and gun were both invented by Chinese and a Parisian bell-maker (respectively) at the behest of the Khan of the Mongols.

Pretty much, but the military at this point are at the process of modernization. I belive Japan got a better military equiptment but their constitution barred them from raising a bigger military.

If the Chinese and Japanese went to war, right now... they'd be trading insults across the Sea of Japan. The Chinese military has no way of transporting anything across any body of water wider than the Yellow River. If the Chinese did manage to get such a fleet together, the Chinese would get a taste of modern kamikaze: the combined forces of the JASDF, JMSDF, the USN, the USAF, and the USMC. Glub-glub-glub, one army turned into a sub.

Greek Fire was not gunpowder, it was a non-explosive napalm-like substance. Ancient incindiery devices were mostly made out of tar and oils, and did not explode. Any historian will tell you that Chinese invented gunpowder - which is an explosive.

Those were all based on substances developed using the same chemical formula as gun powder.

That doesn't change the fact that Chinese invented gunpowder, and even after China was conquered, it was mainly Chinese technicians who built the cannons and produced the gunpowder for the Mongol forces.

It was actually a Parisian bell-maker, then, that invented the gun. He was in China at the time.

I'm not a Chinese nationalist by any means, I'm just clearing up some total historical falsehoods that you are presenting.

If I presented a historical falsehood, I'd be aware of it, thanks. Other than that, it's all cool.

Those were all based on substances developed using the same chemical formula as gun powder.



I fear your argument is incorrect due to the fact that the forumula of greek fire is lost to the ages. Though I am eager to hear otherwise.

Kinda, China developed cannon and a very, very primitive gun. It was guns going to Europe where they were devloped far better than anything China ever came up with. Interestingly, guns were tradded to Japan, who took them and make better weapons than the Europeans. However, the idea of a pesant killing a samurai made the Tokugawa goverment edgy for some reason. Guns were outlawed and the technologies forgotten to the point that by the time Commodor Perry showed up, no one was quite sure how to use them any more. Japan is the only nation in history that got the firearm genie back into its bottle.

If memory serves, the use and manufacture of firearms were prohibited, but they themselves were not. (There's one specific instance where a Japanese fortress was bombarded by a European vessel with greater range and accuracy than the Japanese garrison commander thought possible, ie: the guns on the European ships had longer ranges than the fortress's.) It's just that when Commodore Perry sailed in, their guns were still smoothbore matchlocks (where as Commodore Perry had percussion rifles).

I fear your argument is incorrect due to the fact that the forumula of greek fire is lost to the ages. Though I am eager to hear otherwise.

I believed I heard that scientists, not too long ago, claimed to have rediscovered the formula (or at least one very similar). I may be wrong. But I do remember that the incindieries used in naptha and the Roman incindieries were similar chemical formulae.

Of course, on an unrelated note, the Chinese did invent the trebuchet.

Those were all based on substances developed using the same chemical formula as gun powder.

Wrong... gunpowder, made from sulfur and charcoal, is different from "greek fire" made out of tar. Furthermore, it is quite obvious gunpowder had completely different applications from the rest. Gunpowder explodes, while all that other stuff just burns.

It was actually a Parisian bell-maker, then, that invented the gun. He was in China at the time.
Parisian bell maker? Where did you come up with that? Cannons were invented by Chinese. Muskets were invented by Europeans, in Europe, though no one knows who first built them.

If I presented a historical falsehood, I'd be aware of it, thanks. Other than that, it's all cool.
Do some research next time...

Wrong... gunpowder, made from sulfur and charcoal, is different from "greek fire" made out of tar. Furthermore, it is quite obvious gunpowder had completely different applications from the rest. Gunpowder explodes, while all that other stuff just burns.

You do know what an explosion is, right? It's a fast burn in an enclosed space.

Parisian bell maker? Where did you come up with that? Cannons were invented by Chinese. Muskets were invented by Europeans, in Europe, though no one knows who first built them.

It came from Jack Weatherford's Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World. (A link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609809644/sr=1-1/qid=1138764106/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-4450528-6726252?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

Do some research next time...

I always do.

If memory serves, the use and manufacture of firearms were prohibited, but they themselves were not. (There's one specific instance where a Japanese fortress was bombarded by a European vessel with greater range and accuracy than the Japanese garrison commander thought possible, ie: the guns on the European ships had longer ranges than the fortress's.) It's just that when Commodore Perry sailed in, their guns were still smoothbore matchlocks (where as Commodore Perry had percussion rifles).
Kinda. The orignal laws restricted firearms to the govermental forces under aproval of the shougun. Then laws were passed to restrict making of firearms unless they were licenced and ordered by the Tokugawa goverment. Pretty much what happened is that the goverment would order something like 5 rifles a year for ceramonial postions.

And they were not smooth bore (though they were matchlocks), the Japanese figured out how to do that to improve the accruary of their weapons.

But yes, when Perry sailed into Yokohama, the garrison force there couldn't operate the cannon because no one knew how. Not that it would have made that much of a difference as they were vastly inferior to the arms aboard the Black Ships, but there you are.

Kinda. The orignal laws restricted firearms to the govermental forces under aproval of the shougun. Then laws were passed to restrict making of firearms unless they were licenced and ordered by the Tokugawa goverment. Pretty much what happened is that the goverment would order something like 5 rifles a year for ceramonial postions.

And they were not smooth bore (though they were matchlocks), the Japanese figured out how to do that to improve the accruary of their weapons.

But yes, when Perry sailed into Yokohama, the garrison force there couldn't operate the cannon because no one knew how. Not that it would have made that much of a difference as they were vastly inferior to the arms aboard the Black Ships, but there you are.

"Watch for guns going in and women coming out!"

There seems to be alot of debate on what the chinese did or did not invent.

I can assure you it is a very long list and wikipedia should probably have one (And yes your point taken concerning their reliability concerning sources) however the point I would like to make is that the chinese have neglected many of their inventions.

Gunpowder for instance never resulted in a gunpowder warfare like the europeans did which gave them a significant role on the world stage.

The printing press never did seem to result in a wave and spread of intellectual and creative ideas (do correct me though if im wrong)

Many inventions concerning ships were never used in a large amount due to the fact the chinese never had great need to sail the seas ironicly due to their own great project of the Great Cannal.

Inventing things is one thing but the key is to employ them properly and more importantly at the right time for the right situation.

There seems to be alot of debate on what the chinese did or did not invent.

I can assure you it is a very long list and wikipedia should probably have one (And yes your point taken concerning their reliability concerning sources) however the point I would like to make is that the chinese have neglected many of their inventions.

Gunpowder for instance never resulted in a gunpowder warfare like the europeans did which gave them a significant role on the world stage.

The printing press never did seem to result in a wave and spread of intellectual and creative ideas (do correct me though if im wrong)

Many inventions concerning ships were never used in a large amount due to the fact the chinese never had great need to sail the seas ironicly due to their own great project of the Great Cannal.

Inventing things is one thing but the key is to employ them properly and more importantly at the right time for the right situation.
Well, China evidently invented the toilet before the British did.

Japan is awesome.
China is taking over the world.

You do know what an explosion is, right? It's a fast burn in an enclosed space.

An explosion does not have to be enclosed, and Greek fire burned slowly. The whole point of Greek fire is that it sticks on your enemy and slowly roasts him/his ships. With gunpowder, you just give it a tiny spark and a second and an explosion later, it's all gone. You can't launch a bullet with greek fire, but you can with gunpowder.



It came from Jack Weatherford's Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World. (A link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609809644/sr=1-1/qid=1138764106/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-4450528-6726252?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

So perhaps the Mongols were able to develop what can only be called a miniature cannon, but all handheld guns with a trigger mechanism were developed in Europe. (Including Musket, Arquebus, Rifle, etc.)

The printing press never did seem to result in a wave and spread of intellectual and creative ideas (do correct me though if im wrong)

The Mongols used it for printing money and the Chinese used it for printing Confucian texts. I think there was a little bit of use of it for mass printings of plays and the like, but I don't recall perfectly.

Many inventions concerning ships were never used in a large amount due to the fact the chinese never had great need to sail the seas ironicly due to their own great project of the Great Cannal.

The Chinese were launching expeditions under the Ming(?) Dynasty, after he defeated the Mongols and cemented his position on the throne in a naval battle. After he died, though, his successors decided to focus more inwards.

Inventing things is one thing but the key is to employ them properly and more importantly at the right time for the right situation.

I think I could agree with that. Maaaaybe. ;)

An explosion does not have to be enclosed, and Greek fire burned slowly. The whole point of Greek fire is that it sticks on your enemy and slowly roasts him/his ships. With gunpowder, you just give it a tiny spark and a second and an explosion later, it's all gone. You can't launch a bullet with greek fire, but you can with gunpowder.

But Greek Fire wasn't the only incendiery out there that was used. By dilluting the substance, it would burn slower, which is how they made it.

And you probably could use Greek Fire to operate a gun. You'd just have to dry it and then grind it up before hand! :p

So perhaps the Mongols were able to develop what can only be called a miniature cannon, but all handheld guns with a trigger mechanism were developed in Europe. (Including Musket, Arquebus, Rifle, etc.)

Yes, the Europeans did. But it wasn't until after the Ottomon-Turks used cannon that he bought which were based off of the Mongolian model (which were siege engines, both of them) to bring down the walls of Constantinople. At that point, everyone in Europe just had to have their own force of cannoneers.

The Chinese were launching expeditions under the Ming(?) Dynasty, after he defeated the Mongols and cemented his position on the throne in a naval battle. After he died, though, his successors decided to focus more inwards.
)

Heh, I'll asssume this he being the first Ming Emperor? Anyway I think we can both agree that the Zheng He expiditions were a exception to the rule seeing as after all beyond the middle kingdom there is obviously nothing to be found and most certainly nothing to be learned from.

Heh, I'll asssume this he being the first Ming Emperor? Anyway I think we can both agree that the Zheng He expiditions were a exception to the rule seeing as after all beyond the middle kingdom there is obviously nothing to be found and most certainly nothing to be learned from.

Of course. China is the center of civilization. All those silly barbarians can do is try to huddle near the light that is China and attempt to absorb some of the knowledge and wisdom of China. ;)

Yes, the Europeans did. But it wasn't until after the Ottomon-Turks used cannon that he bought which were based off of the Mongolian model (which were siege engines, both of them) to bring down the walls of Constantinople. At that point, everyone in Europe just had to have their own force of cannoneers.
The point being though, that again we see technology invented in China, but vastly improved and perfected elsewhere.

Hell, China invented some of the technology used on sailing ships, but it was Europe that took them and then dominated the planet with the best ships.

The point being though, that again we see technology invented in China, but vastly improved and perfected elsewhere.

Hell, China invented some of the technology used on sailing ships, but it was Europe that took them and then dominated the planet with the best ships.

Japan and Europe... them and their not inventing things and only refining things invented elsewhere!

The Japanese are better then their Chinese counterparts in every way...except for population count of course.

Japan and Europe... them and their not inventing things and only refining things invented elsewhere!
Europe both refined and invented things, as did Japan. And I will agree with the former statement that its not who invented it, but who put it to its best use that counts.

But Greek Fire wasn't the only incendiery out there that was used. By dilluting the substance, it would burn slower, which is how they made it.

And you probably could use Greek Fire to operate a gun. You'd just have to dry it and then grind it up before hand! :p
Now you're just taking stabs in the dark...
No Greek fire had ever been observed to explode. Since it was derived from oils or tars, then it does not solidify at room temperature. No matter how high the concentration, I don't think it can explode like gunpowder. The older incindiery materials were all like wood - a substance that does not explode, but does burn. Gunpowder, on the other hand, combusts violently.

Yes, the Europeans did. But it wasn't until after the Ottomon-Turks used cannon that he bought which were based off of the Mongolian model (which were siege engines, both of them) to bring down the walls of Constantinople. At that point, everyone in Europe just had to have their own force of cannoneers.
Europeans all had cannons long before 1453. The Byzantines had cannons to defend against the Turks during that siege, although they were a lot smaller. The Turkish cannons (incidently built by Hungarian engineers) were not technologically innovative, they were just massive.

Japan and Europe... them and their not inventing things and only refining things invented elsewhere!
Well, if the orginal inventors weren't doing anything with it.

I mean, America invented the VCR, but Sony was the one that made it a household item.

Well mind you, the Chinese still invented them. What good is a bottle without a bottom afterall so one shouldn't downplay their importance upon the world stage in that regard.

As for the lovely post of Strasse II, I'm swelled with joy you offer you insight with a single sentence and absolutly no basis in arguments.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but let's keep it constructive.

Now you're just taking stabs in the dark...
No Greek fire had ever been observed to explode. Since it was derived from oils or tars, then it does not solidify at room temperature. No matter how high the concentration, I don't think it can explode like gunpowder. The older incindiery materials were all like wood - a substance that does not explode, but does burn. Gunpowder, on the other hand, combusts violently.

Wood? Not explode? Have you never worked in a saw-mill, sir?

Europeans all had cannons long before 1453. The Byzantines had cannons to defend against the Turks during that siege, although they were a lot smaller. The Turkish cannons (incidently built by Hungarian engineers) were not technologically innovative, they were just massive.

I recall the Turkish guns being the big push for a complete change in warfare. Bah. Near-eastern history isn't my speciality.

Well, if the orginal inventors weren't doing anything with it.

I mean, America invented the VCR, but Sony was the one that made it a household item.

I'm pretty sure that was my point. ^^;

Wood? Not explode? Have you never worked in a saw-mill, sir?


So aeroslized wood dust explodes. That doesn't make Greek fire explode, and it definitely doesn't make it pracitcal for wood to be used as a propellant on the battlefield. When gunpowder was invented, it was so much more efficient, could be used in such small and manageable quantities to great effect, it becomes pointless to use anything else.

So aeroslized wood dust explodes. That doesn't make Greek fire explode, and it definitely doesn't make it pracitcal for wood to be used as a propellant on the battlefield. When gunpowder was invented, it was so much more efficient, could be used in such small and manageable quantities to great effect, it becomes pointless to use anything else.

Until chemists invented smokeless powder in the 19th Century. And since then, there have been constant (small) upgrades in the exact make-up of gun powder.

Until chemists invented smokeless powder in the 19th Century. And since then, there have been constant (small) upgrades in the exact make-up of gun powder.
It's near impossible to downplay the significance of gunpowder, and even more futile to argue that gunpowder is the same exact thing as anything else that burns, whether greek fire or wood. Even when the most primitive gunpowder was discovered and then put into the barrel of a cannon, it was a completely revolutionary development.

Here's my vote: the Koreas. Seriously, they should tag-team one of these days. South Korea could carry out the capitalist/economic part of Asian domination while North Korea bascially smashes any small Asian country that gets in its way.

It's near impossible to downplay the significance of gunpowder, and even more futile to argue that gunpowder is the same exact thing as anything else that burns, whether greek fire or wood. Even when the most primitive gunpowder was discovered and then put into the barrel of a cannon, it was a completely revolutionary development.

I think that was my point.... o0;

Europeans all had cannons long before 1453. The Byzantines had cannons to defend against the Turks during that siege, although they were a lot smaller. The Turkish cannons (incidently built by Hungarian engineers) were not technologically innovative, they were just massive.

Uh..it was because of the cannons, which were invented by the Turks that Constantinople fell and it becoming an Islamic city.

Uh..it was because of the cannons, which were invented by the Turks that Constantinople fell and it becoming an Islamic city.
I don't think the Turks invented them...If I recall correctly, they did purchase them though.

Here's my vote: the Koreas. Seriously, they should tag-team one of these days. South Korea could carry out the capitalist/economic part of Asian domination while North Korea bascially smashes any small Asian country that gets in its way.

Yeah like that'll happen.

Yeah like that'll happen.

Vietnam before Korea! Even the Mongols got kicked out by them! :D

Here's my vote: the Koreas. Seriously, they should tag-team one of these days. South Korea could carry out the capitalist/economic part of Asian domination while North Korea bascially smashes any small Asian country that gets in its way.

Too bad the only nations near them are China, Japan and Russia.

Hardly small now are they?

To bad the only nations near them are China, Japan and Russia.

Hardly small now are they?
Well not unless you used a magnifying glass to make Korea look bigger on the map...but even then :p

I think that was my point.... o0;
You were trying to argue that greek fire, and other substances, are just as good as gunpowder, which is false...

You were trying to argue that greek fire, and other substances, are just as good as gunpowder, which is false...

I was arguing that Greek Fire and similar substances were created using similar chemical formulae to black powder.

Excuse me?

Did you know that the Japanese last year created a textbook saying that they never went war with China? That caused a MAJOR riot in China.

Although we cannot judge Japan at modern day, but if we were to judge them before WWII or in WWII, they were simply extreme enemies. They started war with Australia by bombing a hospital ship killing 300 nurses/doctors. They invaded atleast half of south-east asia and the Oceanic islands and also were the first ones to bomb China. Not to include the fact Pearl Habour was bombed by them too.

Believe me, I feel no sympathy to those victims ( who backed up their governments about invading other countries ) that got NUKED by the Americans because they absolutely deserved it. I do feel sorry for those who were innocent bystanders.

If Japan wanted more land to suit their population, war should not be the option.

I was arguing that Greek Fire and similar substances were created using similar chemical formulae to black powder.
Which is also incorrect, and your original words were "And gun-powder was a world-wide phenomonen. Everyone had different forms of it. In the Byzantine Empire, it took the form of "Greek Fire". In Ancient Persia, it took the form of primitive flame-throwers. In ancient Rome, it was used as an incindiery round used by ballistae."

Which is also incorrect, and your original words were "And gun-powder was a world-wide phenomonen. Everyone had different forms of it. In the Byzantine Empire, it took the form of "Greek Fire". In Ancient Persia, it took the form of primitive flame-throwers. In ancient Rome, it was used as an incindiery round used by ballistae."

At least you got my arguement correct. :rolleyes:

Did you know that the Japanese last year created a textbook saying that they never went war with China? That caused a MAJOR riot in China.
No, they did NOT! That damn textbook, while never admiting to the extreams of war that Japan caused, did NOT say that Japan never went to war with China!

If Japan wanted more land to suit their population, war should not be the option.
It was not population preasure but lack of resources that drove that war. Not in any way stating that Japan was right to begin what it did, but it was not after land for its population, it was after oil, rubber, tin, and other raw materials that it cannot produce on its own.

It was not population preasure but lack of resources that drove that war. Not in any way stating that Japan was right to begin what it did, but it was not after land for its population, it was after oil, rubber, tin, and other raw materials that it cannot produce on its own.

And grain. Don't forget grain. That's how the whole damned thing got started... trying to turn Manchuria into the breadbasket of Japan. That and a buncha renegade officers in the Imperial Japanese Army (and in the interests of fair play with Germany's Wehrmacht, I'll say it once: the Dai-Nippon Teikoku Rikugun. There I said it. And I ain't gonna say it again! Unless someone can come up with something as easy to say as "Wehrmacht") decided that they rather liked being in Manchuria so much that they thought they should never have to leave, combined with a parliament and Emperor too weak to stand up to the military.

As far as modern culture and entertainment, America is better than both of them.

I speak a bit of Japanese, and am a lot more familiar with their culture and history than China. Japan wins. Although I hope to visit both in the near future - they both look like incredible places.

As far as modern culture and entertainment, America is better than both of them.

Odd. America doesn't have much culture or entertainment value at all. ;)

(I joke, I joke)

On the issue of textbooks for Japanese junior high school students, these are the offical English (though for the Chinese on the board, they have Chinese) langauge translations of all MEXT approved textbooks. Read and enjoy.
http://www.je-kaleidoscope.jp/english/index.html

Japan has the informative technology and the economy. But it's economic prosperity is only due to its Constitutional Restrictions.

China, on the other hand, as an everlasting power, has the economy, the people, and soon enough, the technology.

Although China's military is technologically at a disadvantage, new weapons are being used and transfered to the Chinese Military.

I truly believe they are equal.

Japan produces middle-to-high cost products that are useful
China produces low-cost products that are useful

No, they did NOT! That damn textbook, while never admiting to the extreams of war that Japan caused, did NOT say that Japan never went to war with China!


It was not population preasure but lack of resources that drove that war. Not in any way stating that Japan was right to begin what it did, but it was not after land for its population, it was after oil, rubber, tin, and other raw materials that it cannot produce on its own.

All the Japanese Textbooks in general had in them was the glorification of Japanese Atrocities in China and the Japanese War Effort/Cause/Effect/Imperialism.

All the Japanese Textbooks in general had in them was the glorification of Japanese Atrocities in China and the Japanese War Effort/Cause/Effect/Imperialism.
Wow... and in two minutes you read them, all of them? Go back and try again.

3. At least the Chinese are not Imperialist, meaning they're not hungry for land, unlike Japan.

lol...tell that to the Tibetans. Oh and the Indians too...since the Chinese are still holding on to 14,670 sq mile territory of North-east Kashmir, following an unprovoked invasion in 1962.

Japanese were imperialist and I am not a fan of Japanese imperialistic adventures in Nanjing. I have read enough of their experiments there to give me nightmares for some time. But it would be fair to say that it is over.

But the Chinese are hegemons and there is a good chance that they may pick up some fights when they have some internal troubles.

Also they have painted themselves into a corner in the Taiwan issue with the "One China" BS. It would be interesting to see how they wiggle out of that thing.

I teach English in a public junior high school in a small town in Nagano-ken. I'm here on behalf of the JET Programme, which sticks people from some 64 countries throughout Japan.



I know what the JET programme is. Its just globalisation in a cheap mask. I am anti-globalisation and have joined multiple protests against it.

I know what the JET programme is. Its just globalisation in a cheap mask. I am anti-globalisation and have joined multiple protests against it.

And what would you suggest take the place of globalism? Something better? Something worse?

And what would you suggest take the place of globalism? Something better? Something worse?



Thats a hard question. A simple answer is socialism or a form of it that would allow nations to be self-reliant.

I know what the JET programme is. Its just globalisation in a cheap mask. I am anti-globalisation and have joined multiple protests against it.
You are against globalisation? HA HA HA.. Then why are you on the internet, doesnt it promote globlisation? Basically, it is the purest form of globablisation.. anyone from anywhere can talk and work together at anytime. Why use email, it only empowers globalisation? If you are truly against all these devices that cause globalisation, then you should boycott using them. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :rolleyes:

I voted for China, not because I'm Chinese, but because:

1. EVERYTHING, thats right, everything of Japanese culture is copied from Chinese customs when they broke apart from China in the BC's.
-Thats like saying everything from Britain is from France, or everything from the USA is from Britain.

2. Animation, such as Pokemon and Inyuasha, have Chinese producers in which they MAKE the animation happen. It's the Japanese who drew the pictures.
-Whoopdie doo

3. At least the Chinese are not Imperialist, meaning they're not hungry for land, unlike Japan. During the Chinese [Civil War] Revolution, they caused the Nanjing Massacre.
- They already have the land, there are many ethnic groups that don't want to be a part of china

4. Chinese are honest, not liars like Japanese. Japanese Prime Minister Junchiro changed Japanese textbooks about their aggression toward their neighbors in Asia.
- Yah right, special google is real honest

10. China has a bigger military. If Japan and China waged war, one on one, China would win. They have nukes.
-Yah, but Japan has the USA. Hmmm, that would be a scary fight.

In the end, I have to say Japan because they had Samurai, and Samurai are awesome. All this weirdo stuff that Japan does (game shows, panty dispensers, tentacle porn) could all be fixed if only the Samurai were brought back. SAMUUUURRRAAAIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. A powerful economy is usually the best way to preserve this.

Are you kidding me???:headbang: Japanese economy for the last decade is a WRECK! GDP hasnt increased for a single percent in 10 YEARS, pointless public works draining all the money from the economy. All the japanese simply refuse to spend their money on anything, even when the official bank interest rate is 0%!!! and now, it's got worse, all the manufacturing of what bring japan to a economic power (the electronic gadgets) are made in China, EVERYTHING with a japanese brand is made in China there days (except some cars, which is what kept japanese industry alive).

the world economy will stop if China stops producing. That is a fact.

You are against globalisation? HA HA HA.. Then why are you on the internet, doesnt it promote globlisation? Basically, it is the purest form of globablisation.. anyone from anywhere can talk and work together at anytime. Why use email, it only empowers globalisation? If you are truly against all these devices that cause globalisation, then you should boycott using them. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :rolleyes:



You have no idea what you are talking about do you? :rolleyes:

Are you kidding me???:headbang: Japanese economy for the last decade is a WRECK! GDP hasnt increased for a single percent in 10 YEARS, pointless public works draining all the money from the economy. All the japanese simply refuse to spend their money on anything, even when the official bank interest rate is 0%!!! and now, it's got worse, all the manufacturing of what bring japan to a economic power (the electronic gadgets) are made in China, EVERYTHING with a japanese brand is made in China there days (except some cars, which is what kept japanese industry alive).

the world economy will stop if China stops producing. That is a fact.



Our economy is kinda slow, buts its not that bad. It increased by 2.1% in 2005.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html#Econ

Meh. I think China has a more interesting culture and history, and although obviously I would prefer to live in Japan nowadays, i'm voting China because I don't like the way people glorify Japan.

It's not a bad place by any means, but people act as if Japan is some kind of utopia just because they are anime fan boys. It's pretty backward socially, lot of racism and sexism there, and they have a very dark history which they refuse to acknowledge. The British have more reason to hold a grudge against them than Germany - though the Germans treated western European POWs with a fair amount of respect, the Japanese viewed all "gaijin" as sub human, and treated POWs on the same level that the Nazis treated the Jews.

Plus, the whole Samurai cult..I mean, they were no better than any other cultures elite warriors. People nowadays seem to think a Samurai was a superhuman who could cut through hardened steel like butter, move like some guy in Hero, and were utterly virtuous and honourable. In reality they were just highly trained warriors with a kind of twisted world view and did some pretty evil stuff, just like Knights. Anime is responsible for this as well.

Still, if I was in Japans shoes i'd be worried about now. A country they've being opressing and looking down upon for centuries suddenly getting powerful...and the Chinese have long memories about who have wronged them in the past. They probably won't even have to do anything direct, just subtely damage their economy.

Our economy is kinda slow, buts its not that bad. It increased by 2.1% in 2005.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html#Econ

if you take away the money spend on public works... the 2.1% becames 0.1% according to the Economist. ;) thats bad. considering all the international funds are investing in China now, hardly any foreign investment goes to japanese theses days.


PS: who the hell said greek fire is gunpowder???!!!! I dont see how a pod of highly flamable oil being gunpowder

PS2: China has a larger Navy if you don't count the American ships based in japan.

In the end, I have to say Japan because they had Samurai, and Samurai are awesome. All this weirdo stuff that Japan does (game shows, panty dispensers, tentacle porn) could all be fixed if only the Samurai were brought back. SAMUUUURRRAAAIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS3: show me a Samurai who can stand a 10gauge shotgun...

PS3: show me a Samurai who can stand a 10gauge shotgun...

Well...they were little midjits. Maybe the person shooting would not be used to aiming downwards and miss?

PS3: show me a Samurai who can stand a 10gauge shotgun...

Jeez. Such ignorance. If Samurai came back their katanas would have built in lasers. Anyhow, if you were familiar with bushido, losing=winning and winning=winning with extra credit.

And actually.... given that a shotgun fires shot Im not sure that it could get through lamelar armor over silk. Considering that shotguns are crap at range, he would get one shot before the samurai chopped him. Unless, its an automatic shotgun.... hmmmm. Well.... samurais are usually master archers traditionally as well, which beats the crap out of a shotgun at range, so there. Thats not even taking into account the lasers on their katana swords.

I know what the JET programme is. Its just globalisation in a cheap mask. I am anti-globalisation and have joined multiple protests against it.
Young lady, the JET Programme is nothing of the sort. For the last 19 years JETs like myself have been teaching English (which, surprisingly is getting better) in small, rural schools where many people may not have SEEN a gaikokujin in their lives. In many ways, the fact that the majority of Japan can now say they have had SOME contact with gaikokujin is due to the JET Programme. Also, we held dispell some of the damn silly myths that Japanese have about gaikokujin (and on the flip side, when we go home, we help tell about the 'real' Japan, the one that isn't all anime and electronics).

We haven't been ramming our culture down Japanese kids throats if THAT'S what you think we're doing. Actually, Japan has been ramming its culture down OUR throats, thank you very much (Currently sitting on tatami, huddled under the kotatsu for warmth as it is FREEZING outside).

If you were one of my students protesting having to learn English, I could accept it, but for someone who hasn't been taught by a JET or other ALT to say we're globalizing Japan...

PS2: China has a larger Navy if you don't count the American ships based in japan.
Um... no it doesn't Japan has a wonderful blue water marine self defence force. China doesn't have a blue water Navy at all (though it's trying).

Jeez. Such ignorance. If Samurai came back their katanas would have built in lasers. Anyhow, if you were familiar with bushido, losing=winning and winning=winning with extra credit.

And actually.... given that a shotgun fires shot Im not sure that it could get through lamelar armor over silk. Considering that shotguns are crap at range, he would get one shot before the samurai chopped him. Unless, its an automatic shotgun.... hmmmm. Well.... samurais are usually master archers traditionally as well, which beats the crap out of a shotgun at range, so there. Thats not even taking into account the lasers on their katana swords.

Maybe, but if a knight came along he'd just look down at the samurai, start laughing at his size, get slashed at but not hurt as katanas can't slash through shields and armour, and then use his specially designed armour-beating sword to make him even smaller.

...This is assuming the lasers could be deflected by a shield. Besides, if samurai get laser katanas the knights should get titanium steel plate armour! Now THAT would be a battle.

Maybe, but if a knight came along he'd just look down at the samurai, start laughing at his size, get slashed at but not hurt as katanas can't slash through shields and armour, and then use his specially designed armour-beating sword to make him even smaller.
Uh... those walking tutles got slaughtered by the Mongols you know. The armor LOOKS impressive, but doesn't do much against arrows. And while samurai bows don't pack as much punch as the Welsh Longbow, they come close enough to it.

Maybe, but if a knight came along he'd just look down at the samurai, start laughing at his size, get slashed at but not hurt as katanas can't slash through shields and armour, and then use his specially designed armour-beating sword to make him even smaller.

...This is assuming the lasers could be deflected by a shield. Besides, if samurai get laser katanas the knights should get titanium steel plate armour! Now THAT would be a battle.

Your wrong the samurai would just pick up the shotgun off the guy he just killed. Bastard swords (like katanas) are actually so so at get passed plate, not great, but possible. A knight on the other hand, that is a full plate knioght, is used to fighting other full plate knights which means he uses a weapon designed to get passed plate. That in combination with the plate means hes too slow to hit the samurai. Another point is that the samurai could kite him, as modern tests have shown that arrows often made it through most (non-tilting) plate. Also no shield can deflect lasers from a katana! What an outlandish concept!

Uh... those walking tutles got slaughtered by the Mongols you know. The armor LOOKS impressive, but doesn't do much against arrows. And while samurai bows don't pack as much punch as the Welsh Longbow, they come close enough to it.

If bodkin arrows were used, then maybe they could pierce it (Did they have such technology?), but that armour did more than "look impressive" you know - they made a guy pretty much invincible to all but the most direct and accurate blow. Why else would people spend fortunes on suits of armour if they were useless? More to the point why would SAMURAI go to great lengths to get their hands on European plate armour, which they did?

And they weren't walking turtles either - why do people have such a stereotypical view of European armour? Do they think people were just really stupid and made the armour for a laugh to slow them down? Armour was indeed heavy, but knights were trained for years to wear it and still be mobile. They were hella strong men remeber, probably stronger than samurai due to their size and protein rich diet.

Although it is true that Samurai were good archers - in fact it was their main speciality. Another reason why in single melee combat a Samurai would loose - the knight specialised in it whilst the Samurai didn't.

Uh... those walking tutles got slaughtered by the Mongols you know. The armor LOOKS impressive, but doesn't do much against arrows. And while samurai bows don't pack as much punch as the Welsh Longbow, they come close enough to it.

Hmmm... wrong time period I think. I don't think the mongols often came into contact with the western knight as we know him, and not at the height of german/english/spannish weapon/armor smithing. You point with the arrows is true though.

Hmmm... wrong time period I think. I don't think the mongols often came into contact with the western knight as we know him, and not at the height of german/english/spannish weapon/armor smithing. You point with the arrows is true though.

Yeah...I thought the mongols were a bit early to face proper knights, but didn't know for sure and didn't want to look dumb.

But a genuine question - did the Samurai have Bodkin arrows? I doubt arrows would have penetrated that well if not.

Although it is true that Samurai were good archers - in fact it was their main speciality. Another reason why in single melee combat a Samurai would loose - the knight specialised in it whilst the Samurai didn't.

Well first off we never specifiied melee (remember the shotgun?). I asure you however that samurai were exquisitely well trained in sword play (at least in the periods they were still viable retainers). Samurai were warriors and that was all, they spent their entire lives from childhood in the way. Knights on the other hand were often a great many other things to boot besides warriors, they were after all aristocrats (or a member of a holy order, but....yah).

Young lady, the JET Programme is nothing of the sort. For the last 19 years JETs like myself have been teaching English (which, surprisingly is getting better) in small, rural schools where many people may not have SEEN a gaikokujin in their lives. In many ways, the fact that the majority of Japan can now say they have had SOME contact with gaikokujin is due to the JET Programme. Also, we held dispell some of the damn silly myths that Japanese have about gaikokujin (and on the flip side, when we go home, we help tell about the 'real' Japan, the one that isn't all anime and electronics).

We haven't been ramming our culture down Japanese kids throats if THAT'S what you think we're doing. Actually, Japan has been ramming its culture down OUR throats, thank you very much (Currently sitting on tatami, huddled under the kotatsu for warmth as it is FREEZING outside).

If you were one of my students protesting having to learn English, I could accept it, but for someone who hasn't been taught by a JET or other ALT to say we're globalizing Japan...


I protest globalisation, I have never protested JET becuase I don't live in Japan and can't. Why would I protest learning English, I speak it. JET aims to promote internationalisation, the key word there is internationalisation or the act of bringing something under international control is what I have a problem with. It is an attempt to bring multiculturalism to Japan, I know that because I am friends with a man in the JET programme. So be careful what you say.

Chikusho

Yeah...I thought the mongols were a bit early to face proper knights, but didn't know for sure and didn't want to look dumb.

But a genuine question - did the Samurai have Bodkin arrows? I doubt arrows would have penetrated that well if not.

No I dont think so but...... damn it samurai are sexier!

If bodkin arrows were used, then maybe they could pierce it (Did they have such technology?), but that armour did more than "look impressive" you know - they made a guy pretty much invincible to all but the most direct and accurate blow.
Yes, the French proved just how invincible a full plate armored knight was against good archers. They lost HOW many knights?

And they weren't walking turtles either - why do people have such a stereotypical view of European armour? Do they think people were just really stupid and made the armour for a laugh to slow them down? Armour was indeed heavy, but knights were trained for years to wear it and still be mobile. They were hella strong men remeber, probably stronger than samurai due to their size and protein rich diet.
Yes, but a knight who has to be winched into the saddle isn't going to be NEARLY as mobile as a samurai, again, see the Mongol invasion. Stronger is relative actually, the training the samurai underwent was far more rigorus than knights recieved.

Although it is true that Samurai were good archers - in fact it was their main speciality. Another reason why in single melee combat a Samurai would loose - the knight specialised in it whilst the Samurai didn't.
Uh... I've seen demonstrations of both western style fighting and Japanese style fighting. The Japanese style was far faster and the weapons better.

Hmmm... wrong time period I think. I don't think the mongols often came into contact with the western knight as we know him, and not at the height of german/english/spannish weapon/armor smithing. You point with the arrows is true though.
See Mongol invasion. There were skrimishes along Eastern Europe. Though, yes, I conseed that this wasn't the hight of knightly prowess. However, the armies raised to stop the Mongols from coming in were desimated. It was luck (In that Khan died and the Mongols went back to fight over who got what) that stopped them from coming in.

Well first off we never specifiied melee (remember the shotgun?). I asure you however that samurai were exquisitely well trained in sword play (at least in the periods they were still viable retainers). Samurai were warriors and that was all, they spent their entire lives from childhood in the way. Knights on the other hand were often a great many other things to boot besides warriors, they were after all aristocrats (or a member of a holy order, but....yah).

No more so than Samurai - Knights were trained from a young age and needed and excessive amount of training. Although some were more specialised than others - some depended entirely upon tournament prizes and on ransoms from capturing foes for their income.

I would say that on the whole they are pretty evenly matched, although the knights shield and armour gives him a big advantage, but it just is a little pathetic how nowadays people think samurai were like gods of battle whilst the stereotypical view of a knight is a bloke in clumsy, impractical armour and a very basic sword. Load of crap really.

There's a really good essay on the subject here:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

I got most of my points from that.

I protest globalisation, I have never protested JET becuase I don't live in Japan and can't. Why would I protest learning English, I speak it. JET aims to promote internationalisation, the key word there is internationalisation or the act of bringing something under international control is what I have a problem with. It is an attempt to bring multiculturalism to Japan, I know that because I am friends with a man in the JET programme. So be careful what you say.
Then you need to go recheck what we're doing over here. We're not trying to bring Japan under international control. And multiculturalism is a misleading term in this case as our job is to show inaka Japan that yes, gaikokujin exist and they're just as human as they are (AND we can use hashi!). How can we have multiculturalism when Japan's population is 94% ethnic Japanese? And how can we make OUR culture stick when we go home and will be replaced by someone else? Again, you do not understand what this whole internationalization bit is (not that a lot of JETs do either, it's kind tacked onto the job description).

And like I said, part of our job, part of internationalization, is for us to go home eventually and tell people about Japan, to help defeat the kind of stuff poping up in this thread.

You also need to be clearer in your postings so that we can understand what you mean.

Chikusho
Fuzakerunayo!

Yes, the French proved just how invincible a full plate armored knight was against good archers. They lost HOW many knights?

Like I say - Bodkin arrows. They were basically arrows with a far smaller surface area on the point, so whilst they cause less nasty wounds and could easily be pulled out, they were far more effective at piercing armour. Broadhead arrows couldn't even penetrate plate armour at close range from a longbow.


Yes, but a knight who has to be winched into the saddle isn't going to be NEARLY as mobile as a samurai, again, see the Mongol invasion. Stronger is relative actually, the training the samurai underwent was far more rigorus than knights recieved.

Like I say - why would they bother if it was a lot better idea to go without this clumsy armour that made them so vunerable? Come on now, you've got to accept that maybe these people weren't complete morons and knew from experience that it was better to go with armour than without. It may slow you down a little, but that is far outweighed by the advantage gained by the protection. The training I would think is hard to quantify. Like I said, some knights depended upon their skill in fighting for their income, and could easily die if they did not train hard. They certainly did train from a young age and needed to in order to get used to the armour.


Uh... I've seen demonstrations of both western style fighting and Japanese style fighting. The Japanese style was far faster and the weapons better.

Speed and how pretty the weapons look do not necessarily mean they are more effective. Like I say, a katana would blunt easily against plate armour and if it was blocked by a shield the blade might even snap. The katana is undoubtedly a good weapon...but only against those with light to no armour. The European swords were designed precisely because delicate and ultra sharp blades were useless against a knight - and they were made with just as much skill as katanas.

As the article says, a lot of these misconceptions about how strong the samurai were and how badly equipped the knights were are as a result of the media, which seems to paint Samurai as some mystic demigods of combat and knights as clumsy old idiots with hunks of metal for weapons. Read it - it's really quite interesting.

I would say that on the whole they are pretty evenly matched, although the knights shield and armour gives him a big advantage, but it just is a little pathetic how nowadays people think samurai were like gods of battle whilst the stereotypical view of a knight is a bloke in clumsy, impractical armour and a very basic sword. Load of crap really.

There's a really good essay on the subject here:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

I got most of my points from that.

Thats true, combat plate actually weighed about the same as what a modern soldier wears on his/her back. Oh and Nervun, the knights being winched into their saddles was only for tilting (jousting) it was a heavier armor designed for sport (both parties were expected to come out alive thus it was thicker).

Then you need to go recheck what we're doing over here. We're not trying to bring Japan under international control. And multiculturalism is a misleading term in this case as our job is to show inaka Japan that yes, gaikokujin exist and they're just as human as they are (AND we can use hashi!). How can we have multiculturalism when Japan's population is 94% ethnic Japanese? And how can we make OUR culture stick when we go home and will be replaced by someone else? Again, you do not understand what this whole internationalization bit is (not that a lot of JETs do either, it's kind tacked onto the job description).

And like I said, part of our job, part of internationalization, is for us to go home eventually and tell people about Japan, to help defeat the kind of stuff poping up in this thread.

You also need to be clearer in your postings so that we can understand what you mean.


Fuzakerunayo!


94% Japanese? All numbers i see say 99%. How long do you stay there?


Fuzakerunayo? I have no idea what you just said. LOL! My japanese is limited.

Like I say - Bodkin arrows. They were basically arrows with a far smaller surface area on the point, so whilst they cause less nasty wounds and could easily be pulled out, they were far more effective at piercing armour. Broadhead arrows couldn't even penetrate plate armour at close range from a longbow.

hmm.... ABC actually did a show called "Battlefield investigators" years ago, they actually did a lab study of trying to use a bodkin arrow againest the french armor at the time.

the result? nope... aroow did not penetrate the armor, if you are talking about that battle during the 100 years war, the reason french lost is because they were stepping over eachother and the heavy kights on foot got stuck in mud.

I voted Japan. Why? Because I hate the chinese people. Simple. They tortured my friends (yes, friends) in my squadron VQ-1 back in 2001. For those of you who forget, back in 01 my navy squadron was doing operations over international waters about a hundred miles or so from china. A chinese MIG rammed our plane and the pilot of our US Navy plane had to make a crash landing on Hainan island in china. After the crew were deplaned, the plane was stripped down so the chinese could ather intelligence, and the crew were physically tortured for the same purpose. How do I know this? I was an Aviation Structural Mechanic Airman (AMAN) with that squadron and I knew some of the people on that flight. I even helped rebuild the airplane after the chinese shipped us back the spare parts. If you doubt any of this story you can kiss my ass. As for china, those barbarians should be nuked.

Please keep in mind I am not in any way shape or form referring to chinese who immigrated to the US or any of their democratic allies. I am only referring to the commies in their homeland.

hmm.... ABC actually did a show called "Battlefield investigators" years ago, they actually did a lab study of trying to use a bodkin arrow againest the french armor at the time.

the result? nope... aroow did not penetrate the armor, if you are talking about that battle during the 100 years war, the reason french lost is because they were stepping over eachother and the heavy kights on foot got stuck in mud.

Really? Interesting. Did they use proper 120lb longbows or just the wimpy 80lb versions of today? Because I doubt anyone alive today could draw back a longbow of those days - the longbowmens skeletons they have uncovered are deformed because their muscles were too big for the skeleton to contain.

I know that overall Bodkin arrows were more effective against armour, but I guess it still did not match up to the knights best plate - which was after all not common on the battlefield. They cost the equivilent of millions of dollars in todays money. Most men-at-arms would be wearing chainmail, or studded armour - whatever they could get their hands on.

And yeah, I know about Agincourt and how the English won. I'm just pointing out that unless the samurai used Bodkin arrows their bows would probably do little. Seems even if they did have them it wouldn't help much anyway.

I voted Japan. Why? Because I hate the chinese people. Simple. They tortured my friends (yes, friends) in my squadron VQ-1 back in 2001. For those of you who forget, back in 01 my navy squadron was doing operations over international waters about a hundred miles or so from china. A chinese MIG rammed our plane and the pilot of our US Navy plane had to make a crash landing on Hainan island in china. After the crew were deplaned, the plane was stripped down so the chinese could ather intelligence, and the crew were physically tortured for the same purpose. How do I know this? I was an Aviation Structural Mechanic Airman (AMAN) with that squadron and I knew some of the people on that flight. I even helped rebuild the airplane after the chinese shipped us back the spare parts. If you doubt any of this story you can kiss my ass. As for china, those barbarians should be nuked.

Please keep in mind I am not in any way shape or form referring to chinese who immigrated to the US or any of their democratic allies. I am only referring to the commies in their homeland.


You need to chill out. We know what happened then and it wasn't right, but not all Chinese there are bad people. The government just happens to suck.

I voted Japan. Why? Because I hate the chinese people. Simple. They tortured my friends (yes, friends) in my squadron VQ-1 back in 2001. For those of you who forget, back in 01 my navy squadron was doing operations over international waters about a hundred miles or so from china. A chinese MIG rammed our plane and the pilot of our US Navy plane had to make a crash landing on Hainan island in china. After the crew were deplaned, the plane was stripped down so the chinese could ather intelligence, and the crew were physically tortured for the same purpose. How do I know this? I was an Aviation Structural Mechanic Airman (AMAN) with that squadron and I knew some of the people on that flight. I even helped rebuild the airplane after the chinese shipped us back the spare parts. If you doubt any of this story you can kiss my ass. As for china, those barbarians should be nuked.

Please keep in mind I am not in any way shape or form referring to chinese who immigrated to the US or any of their democratic allies. I am only referring to the commies in their homeland.


Dude, ever hear how the Japanese treated their POWs? How the British were forced under awful conditions to build their railways whilst dying of disease and deliberately given no medical help, so they died in droves?

They were certainly no better when it came to that regard.

I voted Japan. Why? Because I hate the chinese people. Simple. They tortured my friends (yes, friends) in my squadron VQ-1 back in 2001. For those of you who forget, back in 01 my navy squadron was doing operations over international waters about a hundred miles or so from china. A chinese MIG rammed our plane and the pilot of our US Navy plane had to make a crash landing on Hainan island in china. After the crew were deplaned, the plane was stripped down so the chinese could ather intelligence, and the crew were physically tortured for the same purpose. How do I know this? I was an Aviation Structural Mechanic Airman (AMAN) with that squadron and I knew some of the people on that flight. I even helped rebuild the airplane after the chinese shipped us back the spare parts. If you doubt any of this story you can kiss my ass. As for china, those barbarians should be nuked.

Please keep in mind I am not in any way shape or form referring to chinese who immigrated to the US or any of their democratic allies. I am only referring to the commies in their homeland.


so D I C K F A C E... your okay with japan killing American POWs? your okay with japan bombing perl harbour? for all i know the american plane was in chinese airspace, they should've shot them down.

and remember you bombed their embassy... and actually killed embassy staff.. they have every right to to torture your pilots.

so D I C K F A C E... your okay with japan killing American POWs? your okay with japan bombing perl harbour? for all i know the american plane was in chinese airspace.



HUSH! What Japan did was over 60 years ago, what s/he stated happened 5 years ago. More current reflection on them then what happened in WW2 is on us.

Really? Interesting. Did they use proper 120lb longbows or just the wimpy 80lb versions of today? Because I doubt anyone alive today could draw back a longbow of those days - the longbowmens skeletons they have uncovered are deformed because their muscles were too big for the skeleton to contain.

I know that overall Bodkin arrows were more effective against armour, but I guess it still did not match up to the knights best plate - which was after all not common on the battlefield. They cost the equivilent of millions of dollars in todays money. Most men-at-arms would be wearing chainmail, or studded armour - whatever they could get their hands on.

And yeah, I know about Agincourt and how the English won. I'm just pointing out that unless the samurai used Bodkin arrows their bows would probably do little. Seems even if they did have them it wouldn't help much anyway.

sorry for the 2x post

they didnt use a longbopw, they used a machine to simulate the force using a 12 lb arrowhead.

sorry for the 2x post

they didnt use a longbopw, they used a machine to simulate the force using a 12 lb arrowhead.

Hmm, well I guess they knew what they were doing. Just more proof of the strength of plate armour - it really was quite a magnificent creation, and it's a shame Hollywood portrays it as more of a hinderance than a help.

Pearl Harbour was instigated (just a little) by Winston Churchill so if you have a problem with it, blame Britain.

Katanas are cooler than Chinese Swords and China doesn't make anime, therefore Japan is the country I prefer to see win should a horrible bloodthirsty war break out.

Nice reasoned argument there.:cool:

HUSH! What Japan did was over 60 years ago, what s/he stated happened 5 years ago. More current reflection on them then what happened in WW2 is on us.


Exactly. At least the japanese people and government have changed for the better since WW2. The chinese have gone off in the complete opposite direction.

Pearl Harbour was instigated (just a little) by Winston Churchill so if you have a problem with it, blame Britain.

Katanas are cooler than Chinese Swords and China doesn't make anime, therefore Japan is the country I prefer to see win should a horrible bloodthirsty war break out.

Nice reasoned argument there.:cool:


America instigated it a little too. I do believe the USA stopped selling Oil to Japan, and for Japan that hurts.

Like I say - Bodkin arrows. They were basically arrows with a far smaller surface area on the point, so whilst they cause less nasty wounds and could easily be pulled out, they were far more effective at piercing armour. Broadhead arrows couldn't even penetrate plate armour at close range from a longbow.
I wish I could give you a definitive answer here, but Japan, being Japan, has to make life complicated. But here's a picture of various arrowheads used by samurai. Some do, indeed, fit the decription of bodkin arrows, which isn't surpising as it had to go through armor as well.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/jusenkyoguide/arrows1.jpg

Speed and how pretty the weapons look do not necessarily mean they are more effective. Like I say, a katana would blunt easily against plate armour and if it was blocked by a shield the blade might even snap. The katana is undoubtedly a good weapon...but only against those with light to no armour. The European swords were designed precisely because delicate and ultra sharp blades were useless against a knight - and they were made with just as much skill as katanas.
I don't care how pretty the weapon looks, it's the mobility of the fighter. If the fighter can hit you twice and then move quickly into range, that can be a problem. A katana really isn't a thrusting weapon, but it can do so. The long dagger however would be deadly if the samurai could close in before the knight was ready.

Yes, I know they wore that stuff a lot, and yes, I DO know they were faster than most people make them out to be, but its still a question on striking first.

As the article says, a lot of these misconceptions about how strong the samurai were and how badly equipped the knights were are as a result of the media, which seems to paint Samurai as some mystic demigods of combat and knights as clumsy old idiots with hunks of metal for weapons. Read it - it's really quite interesting.
I did, and I have to agree that in the end, they'd probably both kill each other. It would really come down to each person.

Exactly. At least the japanese people and government have changed for the better since WW2. The chinese have gone off in the complete opposite direction.

I didn't say that!

Yeah, Japan has lost a lot of the blind nationalism and racism, but from what I hear it is still there in an undercurrent (I've even heard of 'no gaijin' places in some places), and it's still very backwards when it comes to gender equality.

But I couldn't say for sure as i've never being there. I'd like to visit one day to see what it's really like - I suspect it's neither as great as the fan boys make out or as bad as others make out. Just a kinda average country, no better or worse than anywhere else in the developed world.

japan would have still wooped ass on the mongels. the japanese at the time were far superior at hand to hand combat. the mongols major weapon was there cavalrys and that wasnt on the boat. as for china the way they treat animals makes me sick. dogs and cats. they chop of tiger wang because it has medicinal properties.BS. and it really wasnt the kamikaze that stopped the mongels from landing. the koreans were put into slave camps and subjected to building the ships for the mongels. koreans that were enslaved said F you. and sabotoged the ships..

America instigated it a little too. I do believe the USA stopped selling Oil to Japan, and for Japan that hurts.
I believe that was because Japan was invading China at the time.

I voted both.

Japan:
Anime rocks.
like their culture
love their food.

China
Black Belt Theatre anyone?
Michelle Yeoh!
Love their Food.


both comitted atrocities during war and peace.
both tend to be xenophobic

Comparing the two is like compairing Red seedless Grapes and Black Seedless Grapes. the differences are minimal.

94% Japanese? All numbers i see say 99%. How long do you stay there? I am currently IN Japan.

The 94% is an estimate based upon the Japanese goverment 1. doesn't really know, and 2. has a tendancy to lie to promote the myth of one single race. However, if you factor in the remaining Ainu population, the gaikokujin (whom for reasons I'm sure are known to only them who inhabit Kasumigaseki are always under reported), and (and this is where the numbers go out of wack) Chinese and Koreans who have been born in Japan or been in Japan for generations, but who are still not Japanese nationals, the numbers drop closer to 94% to 96% (Though I personally think it's closer to 94%). But like I said, no one really knows.


Fuzakerunayo? I have no idea what you just said. LOL! My japanese is limited.
Trans: Don't joke around (Or don't say such ridiculous things, it's a bit subjective).

Hate them all... Damn asians... They're all crazy!

I am currently IN Japan.

The 94% is an estimate based upon the Japanese goverment 1. doesn't really know, and 2. has a tendancy to lie to promote the myth of one single race. However, if you factor in the remaining Ainu population, the gaikokujin (whom for reasons I'm sure are known to only them who inhabit Kasumigaseki are always under reported), and (and this is where the numbers go out of wack) Chinese and Koreans who have been born in Japan or been in Japan for generations, but who are still not Japanese nationals, the numbers drop closer to 94% to 96% (Though I personally think it's closer to 94%). But like I said, no one really knows.



Trans: Don't joke around (Or don't say such ridiculous things, it's a bit subjective).


I say 99% because that is the CIA worldfactbooks numbers, but its hard to tell.

Do you know what word I said meant? Chikusho? Translate if possible. May not even be a real word.

I didn't say that!

(I've even heard of 'no gaijin' places in some places)



Ah yes, most notably some of their famous hotsprings are banning the visit of foreigners though in some regards you must give them the right concerning this issue because it was a reaction due to the fact many foreigners hardly bother to bath before they enter the springs which is a common practise there.

As for the person saying that the Chinese having changed for the worse I doubt you are in a position to relitavate the Chinese mind pre-war and the present, though I would stand corrected by your phd. in asian studies.

Knowing another chinese person besides Li from the take away would help too.

Do you know what word I said meant? Chikusho? Translate if possible. May not even be a real word.
Chikushou? An English equiv would be "Damn it!", which is why I responded as I did.
Which begs the question, why were you using it if you don't know what it means?

Ah yes, most notably some of their famous hotsprings are banning the visit of foreigners though in some regards you must give them the right concerning this issue because it was a reaction due to the fact many foreigners hardly bother to bath before they enter the springs which is a common practise there.
Not quite that, and not just because some gaijin do not know how to take a bath. This is discrimination, and there is no excusing it.
http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html

Its something I am not thrilled about with Japan and is something that, should my fiancee and I stay here, I will probably have to deal with sooner or later.

Chikushou? An English equiv would be "Damn it!", which is why I responded as I did.
Which begs the question, why were you using it if you don't know what it means?



I knew what it meant, or thought I did. I know some swear words in Japanese, but it's been so long since I have said anything to somebody who speaks Japanese, I wasn't sure if it was correct. I guess thats why I posted it; to see if I was right. Maybe I should just ask next time.

Not quite that, and not just because some gaijin do not know how to take a bath. This is discrimination, and there is no excusing it.
http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html

Its something I am not thrilled about with Japan and is something that, should my fiancee and I stay here, I will probably have to deal with sooner or later.



Trust me, just come back to America. Its not worth it.

Which begs the question, why were you using it if you don't know what it means?Should come to Hawaii... Our tattoo parlors have this interesting Japanese Kanji design that they say is really popular.

Basic translation? "I'm too stupid to know what this means"

If you're smart enought to ask the tattoo person, he'll tell you what it means, but most people don't ask.

http://www.dsfy.com/Images/Kanji%20Translation/Fonts.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji

Not quite that, and not just because some gaijin do not know how to take a bath. This is discrimination, and there is no excusing it.
http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html

Its something I am not thrilled about with Japan and is something that, should my fiancee and I stay here, I will probably have to deal with sooner or later.

Wow, I wasn't sure if what I heard is an urban myth or not. It's strange because the Japanese people seem so friendly and the culture does not seem racist at all.

I suppose it's just like most places, this kind of stuff is just swept under the rug. Still, it's a little bad that it is tolerated like that - although that website seems to be making some headway.

Any sort of one-on-one war today between Japan and China would end in a stalemate for the most part. Both have pretty decent navies and air forces. Neither would be able to do anything outside of its own backyard.


China has more submarines (80+, versus 20+ for Japan,) but Japan has over a hundred P-3C Orion antisubmarine aircraft, some of the world's best. China has virtually no airborne ASW capability. The 8 Kilo-class in the Chinese navy are good subs, but they are inferior to the Oyashio subs in service with Japan. Basically a China vs. Japan would be a nasty air and sea battle.


China has ballistic missiles all right, but very few, if any, are pointed at Japan. The vast majority are targeted on Taiwan. Besides, Japan, unlike Taiwan, is investing in SM-3 for ballistic-missile defense.



In the air, Japan has 223 F-15J Eagles and 130 F-2 (sort of "F-16 Lite,") whereas China has over four hundred Su-27SK Flankers and eighty Su-30MKK fighter-bombers. The main problem, though, is that China and Japan are too far apart for any of these fighters to reach the opposing nation's homeland.

Trust me, just come back to America. Its not worth it.
Oh I don't know. Yes, there is some really bad parts of Japan, but then there are some really good parts. I've never experianced it in Nagano-ken so it's still a toss up

Or, as I keep saying when asked about which country we'll live in: Taihen desu. Boku wa nihon dai suki! Demo amerika mo suki. Boku no fiancee wa amerika dai suki. Demo nihon mo suki desu. Ja... canada de? ;)

Should come to Hawaii... Our tattoo parlors have this interesting Japanese Kanji design that they say is really popular.

Basic translation? "I'm too stupid to know what this means"

If you're smart enought to ask the tattoo person, he'll tell you what it means, but most people don't ask.
*lol* Everytime I see... interesting English used in Japan, I keep reminding myself that there was one student at my university who went around for four years with a baseball cap that proudly displayed the kanji 猫 (Cat) on it. And I once saw someone who had 足 (Leg) tattooed on his leg.

It helps when I walk into a mall in Nagoya and see "It's FINAL!" on banners everywhere.

Oh I don't know. Yes, there is some really bad parts of Japan, but then there are some really good parts. I've never experianced it in Nagano-ken so it's still a toss up

Or, as I keep saying when asked about which country we'll live in: Taihen desu. Boku wa nihon dai suki! Demo amerika mo suki. Boku no fiancee wa amerika dai suki. Demo nihon mo suki desu. Ja... canada de? ;)



Ooooookkkkkkkaaaaaayyyyyyyy.

Wow, I wasn't sure if what I heard is an urban myth or not. It's strange because the Japanese people seem so friendly and the culture does not seem racist at all.

I suppose it's just like most places, this kind of stuff is just swept under the rug. Still, it's a little bad that it is tolerated like that - although that website seems to be making some headway.
Yeah, I can say that I have never seen it in person. I have never been made to feel anything but welcomed in my new home, or in my fiancee's hometown. But I have had some... less than plesant experiances in other parts of Japan. Getting stared at. Getting people openly shocked to see me (Aa! GAIJIN!). Getting people who delberately move away from me instead of share the same seat I'm on, and so on.

But then, like I said, in my small town, I feel very comfortable and welcomed. Not gaijin rock star status, but really welcomed as the local English teacher.

Of course, I still get shocked looks, but usually it's my students who are shocked to see me in something other than a shirt and tie and who are terrified I'll ask them a question in English in front of their parents (Aa! Jeison-sensei! No English! Japanese please!). :D

Ooooookkkkkkkaaaaaayyyyyyyy.
Trans: I love Japan, but I also like America. My fiancee loves America, but she also likes Japan. Well, maybe we'll go to Canada. ;)

America instigated it a little too. I do believe the USA stopped selling Oil to Japan, and for Japan that hurts.
Yeah, but Winston actually wanted a war to occur so that America would become involved in Europe. America just pissed off Japan by doing what it does best: hoard wealth, therefore Britain is slightly more responsible.

I did, and I have to agree that in the end, they'd probably both kill each other. It would really come down to each person.

i dont see how they can stand a full frontal charge of Gothic knights with plate armor. i really dont. besides, not all medieval knights use heavy two handed claymores) they also use maces, hammers etc, which by no chance the bamboo armor of the sumuaris can stand (then again... with a sword as huge and long as the claymore... the sumurai would be really screwed) also, japanese refuse use a wonderful chinese invenstion... the crossbow... i wonder why...

i dont see how they can stand a full frontal charge of Gothic knights with plate armor. i really dont.
pikes. Pole arms set to receive charge.

pikes. Pole arms set to receive charge.

they dont have pikes... and what spears they have... it's shorter than the medieval lances.

Besides, even if they have the greek/swiss pikes... what are they going to do with it. it's just to damn heavy and long for their build.

i dont see how they can stand a full frontal charge of Gothic knights with plate armor. i really dont. besides, not all medieval knights use heavy two handed claymores) they also use maces, hammers etc, which by no chance the bamboo armor of the sumuaris can stand (then again... with a sword as huge and long as the claymore... the sumurai would be really screwed) also, japanese refuse use a wonderful chinese invenstion... the crossbow... i wonder why...
This is a one on one battle. Besides, if you're using a knight on a horse, you'd have to mount the samurai as well. And if the knight was getting to use other weapons beyond the sword, so could the samurai, which means a nice arrow through the armor.

No, I agree with the article, it would be dependant upon the folks facing each other.

Oh, and terain. Armored knights need a lot of room to play with. Japan is very up and down. ;)

they dont have pikes... and what spears they have... it's shorter than the medieval lances.
You mean the Yari? Those things can be about 20ft long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yari

Besides, even if they have the greek/swiss pikes... what are they going to do with it. it's just to damn heavy and long for their build.
Uh... right... sure...

i dont see how they can stand a full frontal charge of Gothic knights with plate armor. i really dont. besides, not all medieval knights use heavy two handed claymores) they also use maces, hammers etc, which by no chance the bamboo armor of the sumuaris can stand (then again... with a sword as huge and long as the claymore... the sumurai would be really screwed) also, japanese refuse use a wonderful chinese invenstion... the crossbow... i wonder why...

Now you're bringing horses and groups into it, which only makes it harder to say. After all, samurai were proficient at riding horses as well.

I've debated this a hundred times to be honest - I used to be in a roleplaying guild of redneck peasants, but highly disciplined and trained, guardsmen who fought against a guild of 'yeller skinned baby eatin' savages' as my character called them. The samurai players were obviously all fan boys of everything Japanese, especially samurai, and kept writing stories about fictional battles where individual character were killing fully armoured guards by the dozen and I had to point out how stupid it was. Not least because most of the time the guards won battles (We had more men, and trained in team work a lot more.) I pointed out knights were just as good warriors and it always lead to debates like this.

To be honest, there's just no way to tell, they were both suited for different types of fighting dependent on what foes they met. No one race is genetically superiour in terms of skill at arms, so it would largely be down to the skill of each individual. I just wish people would stop glorying samurai like they do.

This is a one on one battle. Besides, if you're using a knight on a horse, you'd have to mount the samurai as well. And if the knight was getting to use other weapons beyond the sword, so could the samurai, which means a nice arrow through the armor.

No, I agree with the article, it would be dependant upon the folks facing each other.

Oh, and terain. Armored knights need a lot of room to play with. Japan is very up and down. ;)

if the samurai uses the bow (with a range of no more than 50m) then the knight would use the crossbow. also, by no chance would a japanese arrow go through Gothic plate armor.

and when it comes to hand to hand horseback combat... the Gothic wins because of a longer spear (twice as long in fact)

besides, japanese always manage to find a open ground to kill each other... it's the honorable way, no sneak attacks there....


EDIT:
regarding the Yari

the samurai usually carried the shorter versions
Yari are believed to have been derived from Chinese spears
yeah.......

if the samurai uses the bow then the knight would use the crossbow. also, by no chance would a japanese arrow go through Gothic plate armor.
We were just debating this above, and it does look like Japan employed arrow heads simular to the bodkin that went through armor.

and when it comes to hand to hand horseback combat... the Gothic wins because of a longer spear (twice as long in fact)
The samurai never charged at each other like knights, they used horse archers. Part of samurai training was the ability to hit a target at full gallop. Since the Mongols used this to great effect with European knights before...

And are you seriously trying to tell me that a knight was wandering around with a lance more than 40ft long?

besides, japanese always manage to find a open ground to kill each other... it's the honorable way, no sneak attacks there....
Japan doesn't HAVE a lot of open ground. And, um, anyone who thinks that there were no sneak attacks in Japan must also think that knights always observed chilvery no matter where they went.

And if so, I have a nice bridge to sell ya, wonderful view of Brooklyn.

Edit:
yeah.......
You said they had no such thing as a pike and that their spears were short. I was pointing out that Japan had simular weapons. Besides, knights didn't carry pikes, PIKEMEN carried the damn things.

And I never said Japan didn't borrow from China, my point is that Japan has devloped many things on its own that were not based off of something from China.

they dont have pikes... and what spears they have... it's shorter than the medieval lances.

Besides, even if they have the greek/swiss pikes... what are they going to do with it. it's just to damn heavy and long for their build.
to use a pole arm against a knight, you don't swing it. you set the butt against the ground and hold it at an angle. the weight of the horse, armor and velocity impales the knight onto the pole arm. for such a thing, a long length of bamboo, cut at an angle, will do the trick. add to the fact that Green Bamboo is flexable and won't break that easliy

and they did have mounted samurai and archers as well as pole arms.

Should come to Hawaii... Our tattoo parlors have this interesting Japanese Kanji design that they say is really popular.

Basic translation? "I'm too stupid to know what this means"

If you're smart enought to ask the tattoo person, he'll tell you what it means, but most people don't ask.

The tattoo parlor that I've gone to has a kanji design that I guess is mildly popular. I am told it means, "This tattoo looks like dog shit."

european prefirearm armies would be superior to japanese ones simply because in europe there is more competition and innovation among the soldiers, while in japan they are caught in a rigid cast system, in europe anybody with the right physis and talent could become a professional merc, racking up years of training, in japan it would be tough luck if you had been born in the peasant class, you will not get better weapons than a stick, period.

european prefirearm armies would be superior to japanese ones simply because in europe there is more competition and innovation among the soldiers, while in japan they are caught in a rigid cast system, in europe anybody with the right physis and talent could become a professional merc, racking up years of training, in japan it would be tough luck if you had been born in the peasant class, you will not get better weapons than a stick, period.
You're thinking Edo Period Japan. The Waring States Period was everybody fighting everybody else. There it was quite possible for peasants to be armed and fight well.

BTW, ninja were peasents use used everyday things to devistating effect at times.

And that's it for me. It's almost 11pm here in Japan, and I have a hord of munchins to face down tomorrow and convince them that they should learn "The Fall of Freddie the Leaf" (A hard task as I am not quite convinced I should teach it). So I'll be back tomorrow.

Oyasuminasai.

I spent 3 weeks in China a few years ago and currently live in Japan. I have a nice, long list of things that Japan makes me want to complain about. But it's leaps and bounds better than China.

Countries run by Communists pretty much suck. But at least most of the Chinese people I met were pretty nice.

Definitely Japan! Don't need to think a split second here either.
China might not be quite as bad if they wouldn't trample on the human rights with their feet and sick stuff like that :rolleyes:

You're thinking Edo Period Japan. The Waring States Period was everybody fighting everybody else. There it was quite possible for peasants to be armed and fight well.

BTW, ninja were peasents use used everyday things to devistating effect at times.no way, in japan peasants remained peasants and the japanese ashigaru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashigaru) wouldnt have had a prayer against european landsknechte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht).

ninja werent soldiers, they were assassins.

Definitely Japan! Don't need to think a split second here either.
China might not be quite as bad if they wouldn't trample on the human rights with their feet and sick stuff like that :rolleyes:

have you seen the documantry on japan's sex trade and how it abuses human rights?

You're thinking Edo Period Japan. The Waring States Period was everybody fighting everybody else. There it was quite possible for peasants to be armed and fight well.

BTW, ninja were peasents use used everyday things to devistating effect at times.

And that's it for me. It's almost 11pm here in Japan, and I have a hord of munchins to face down tomorrow and convince them that they should learn "The Fall of Freddie the Leaf" (A hard task as I am not quite convinced I should teach it). So I'll be back tomorrow.

Oyasuminasai.

You have a point indeed. Hideyoshi, who was the Second of the Great Unifiers came () this close to becoming shogun, but couldn't becuase he was a peasent. So he took some court title and kept the power of shogun.

Ninja clans or groups lived in highly isolated regions of japan and often you would have to wisper about a contract in a certain place before they found you, since you didn't find them. So, while yes they could use nearly any object to case a large bit of harm, they weren't normal peasents.


no way, in japan peasants remained peasants and the japanese ashigaru wouldnt have had a prayer against european landsknechte.

ninja werent soldiers, they were assassins.

Actually you'd be a bit wrong in one point. Ashigaru, while raised from the peasent population, weren't simply given a spear and told to point it in the right direction. Many daimyo (lords) such as Oda Nobunaga would spend a great amount of time drilling their troops. And while german pikemen mercs might be affective, they wouldn't have thw ill that Ashigaru would have with Bushido and their ways of being bound by honor to do their lords will.

Its been said that those ninja clans which had members that weren't quite skilled in silent killing were employed as a sort of special forces in some armies. (Buddhist Militant Monks are an expamle using many training techniques similar to ninja training)

no way, in japan peasants remained peasants and the japanese ashigaru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashigaru) wouldnt have had a prayer against european landsknechte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht).

ninja werent soldiers, they were assassins.
I think he meant that Ninjas were not a class like Samurai were. but were considered pesants. and the fact that they were trained to use unconventional (in the eyes of the Samurai) weapons.

and they were not only assassins, but spies as well. the eyes and ears of their lords.

And while german pikemen mercs might be affective, they wouldn't have thw ill that Ashigaru would have with Bushido and their ways of being bound by honor to do their lords will.japanese peasants didnt fight because of some honor codex, but because they were more afraid of what their daimyo would do to them if they disserted than they were of the enemy.

I think he meant that Ninjas were not a class like Samurai were. but were considered pesants. and the fact that they were trained to use unconventional (in the eyes of the Samurai) weapons.

and they were not only assassins, but spies as well. the eyes and ears of their lords.ninjas wouldnt reveal they were ninjas or else they would likely be seized and executed right away. also they werent spies, while ninjas would seek to isolate themselves, keep their privacy and possibly set up camp outside of a village, spies would try to get involved in the community, seek out inns and go where the people meet.

And while german pikemen mercs might be affective, they wouldn't have thw ill that Ashigaru would have with Bushido and their ways of being bound by honor to do their lords will.


It always amuses me when people say "Ah, but...they were all honorable...and stuff...and had bushido!" in reference to Japanese, as if that somehow discounts all other evidence and means that they were plain better fighters. Reminds me of that futurama episode when Leela is told she can't be a good martial artist as she is a female, and lacks the "will of the warrior". It's like me saying "Yeah, but knights would totally pwn the spartans because the knights had chivalry!" Woo - like some abstract concept would improve the individual fighting skill of soilders.

I very much doubt it made any difference, and I don't think Ashigaru and German Pikemen are a really fair comparison. Whilst Ashigaru WERE peasants and whilst trained, they were not exactly brilliant warriors on any level. The pikemen of central europe were legendary in their professionalism and discipline. They were often veterans of countless battles. The Ashigaru were mainly badly equipped sword fodder, although some may have being more trained and drilled than others .

japanese peasants didnt fight because of some honor codex, but because they were more afraid of what their daimyo would do to them if they disserted than they were of the enemy.

You obviously don't understand the Japanese mind-set. From the lowest peasent to the greatest Lord, Honor was and to this day, is everything to those people. A Japanese person in that time did not fear death. "Death is nothing."- one of the mantras they would chant in temples.

And out of all my years researching and studying Japanese history I have hardly heard of soldiers in a japanese army (medieval times) deserting. It just wasn't done. They just didn't think to do it. It wasn't a part of their thinking. They are a collective thinking people, considering the whole above the individual.

It always amuses me when people say "Ah, but...they were all honorable...and stuff...and had bushido!" in reference to Japanese, as if that somehow discounts all other evidence and means that they were plain better fighters. Reminds me of that futurama episode when Leela is told she can't be a good martial artist as she is a female, and lacks the "will of the warrior". It's like me saying "Yeah, but knights would totally pwn the spartans because the knights had chivalry!" Woo - like some abstract concept would improve the individual fighting skill of soilders.

I very much doubt it made any difference, and I don't think Ashigaru and German Pikemen are a really fair comparison. Whilst Ashigaru WERE peasants and whilst trained, they were not exactly brilliant warriors on any level. The pikemen of central europe were legendary in their professionalism and discipline. They were often veterans of countless battles. The Ashigaru were mainly badly equipped sword fodder, although some may have being more trained and drilled than others .


You've got the wrong anology here. A knight's chivalry was not the same as Bushido. Similar in concept but not in principle and practise. Theres historical evidence that shows the chivalry was invented by 16th and 17th century poets to 'spicen things up' when it came to remembering those shining men. And if it was between a Spartan and a Knight...my money would be on the spartan.

I myself was not arguing the point of Ashigaru vs. Pikemen. I have no doubt that in a battle between those two the pikemen would ultimately have a win. However wars are won in the will. I would rather face a veteran pikeman than a fanatic ashigaru.

So, if I were a Japanese general facing a horde of European pikemen, I'd be using archers and calvary. Whereas my opponent, using massive regiments of pikemen is forced to go in one direction, by using archers I would break his formations and strike with calvary followed quickly with a large force of foot samurai...but then explaining tactics and 'what ifs' are rather too rehtorical in my opinion.

ninjas wouldnt reveal they were ninjas or else they would likely be seized and executed right away. also they werent spies, while ninjas would seek to isolate themselves, keep their privacy and possibly set up camp outside of a village, spies would try to get involved in the community, seek out inns and go where the people meet.
err... wrong....

Ninja CLANS would be isolated because of the training involved, same as most monestaries and temples. but a ninja at work could be the money collector at the public bath, the nice woman serving your drink at the bar, even the street musician playing at the marketplace or the house wife sweeping her home clean. never could tell.

err... wrong....

Ninja CLANS would be isolated because of the training involved, same as most monestaries and temples. but a ninja at work could be the money collector at the public bath, the nice woman serving your drink at the bar, even the street musician playing at the marketplace or the house wife sweeping her home clean. never could tell.

*nods in agreement*

They [the pikemen of central europe] were often veterans of countless battles.and the reason they were is because they could travel around from battle to battle. the japanese peasants were still bondsmen, thralls, serfs, helots, the property of their lord, who did not allow them to move away.

You've got the wrong anology here. A knight's chivalry was not the same as Bushido. Similar in concept but not in principle and practise. Theres historical evidence that shows the chivalry was invented by 16th and 17th century poets to 'spicen things up' when it came to remembering those shining men. And if it was between a Spartan and a Knight...my money would be on the spartan.

From what I have studied, chivalry was invented in the middle ages as a way of keeping the knights in line. Possibly part of the Peace of God movement? I've studied both and they both have similar aims, but don't know if they were explicitly linked. After all, most of the time they were sacking towns, pillaging, murdering, raping...chivalry was a way of stopping all that, or at least against the privilaged and clergy. Peasants were the property of other landowners, and fair game.

On the other hand, samurai were no better. They treated peasants as scum and would do things like slash a peasant in half just to check if their katana was sharp enough. They were also excessively sexist to the point of many samurai being homosexual - they thought sex with women weakened them. The whole idea of samurai being "honourable" depends largely on how you define honour...they don't seem very honourable to me, but that would be judging them by modern western standards.

As for the Spartan and Knight - i'd put my money on the Spartans if it were a battle, but in individual combat i'd say Knight, purely on the basis of superiour equipment.

I myself was not arguing the point of Ashigaru vs. Pikemen. I have no doubt that in a battle between those two the pikemen would ultimately have a win. However wars are won in the will. I would rather face a veteran pikeman than a fanatic ashigaru.

So, if I were a Japanese general facing a horde of European pikemen, I'd be using archers and calvary. Whereas my opponent, using massive regiments of pikemen is forced to go in one direction, by using archers I would break his formations and strike with calvary followed quickly with a large force of foot samurai...but then explaining tactics and 'what ifs' are rather too rehtorical in my opinion.

I personally think a lot of this whole idea that every single Japanese warrior was a fanatic who would never back down is a load of crap, and a case of people confusing the ideal with the reality. Yes, in THEORY no one would ever give up, but that doesn't mean it never happened. Are there no cases of Japanese fleeing from battle at all ever? Fantacism was encouraged among christian armies in the crusades...doesn't mean every single soilder would follow it.

Well...if you were fighting a horde of pikemen on their own with a wide range of Japanese troop types you probably could win. However, if a standard European army was facing a group of unsupported Ashigaru it would be a complete massacre. Pikemen were used in conjunction with arquebusiers, cannon and cavalry - they wouldn't just fight on their own.

Let's see. Japan engaged in some of the worst genocide ever and denies it to this day. They have some of the most perverted and disturbing porn ever devised by ordinary humans. They went from koto music to bubblegum pop without so much as a twinge of guilt. They are pushing many species of whale to extinction just so they can eat a meat they could easily live without. They have appalling levels of racism, sexism, and a monarchy.

On the other hand, China is even more sexist, authoritarian, etc. They have pretty much torched socialism's image to the point where we will probably never have any chance of getting it. If they take control of the world (which they soon will be able to with the inevidible fall of the US), it will be a hell on Earth that only 1984 can even come close to describing.

So, in the end, I must say I don't like either much at all.

Japan.

1. Larger Navy. Rivals that of the US.
2. Higher quality manufacturing.
3. Military Tradition (Yes. Japan is one of the few countries that still has a military tradition).
4. Better Airforce.
5. Better armor (I think they have the...."Heavy Defence Vehicle." Or the m1)

And
Shen-Ru-Xin

Yes, they were hit by two atomic bombs. And for your information, the Japanese people were more than willing to fight it out to the end. In fact, many of the high ranking generals wanted to fight. Furthermore, America had not anticipated the Japanese surrender. More or less, they were going to launch a costly invasion against Japan. The Prime Minister decided to end the war, because he realized that the Japanese people would not surrender. He did it for the people. Otherwise, the Japanese population would fight to the death.

As for testing on the people, I have no opinion on this. Sure, it is horrible, and should not be done. But the highly accurate data produced through it actually scares me a little...

Oh yeah, and for the government having a bad attitude.
You have no idea how many hissy fits the Chinese government have thrown at Taiwan when it comes to becoming an independent nation.

Or when Taiwan wants a bunch of new Battle Ships. Might I add, there are several nukes pointed to that Island?

um... Have you read any recent books? Japan's armed forces were destroyed during WW2 There is no way it can have a navy that matches the us on top of that they have no millitary presence other than a security force

as for you second statement Japan was on the brink of surrendering after the 1st nuclear bomb I have always thought the second bomb was uncalled for but thanks to people like you I now think there should have been more bombs droped on that island

regarding your views on taiwan It is not an independant country its headed by a rogue government that abandoned the main land as a result of a civil war. That war is on a perminant cease fire but its not over. therefore it is considered a part of china. if the korean war did not start china would have carried through the war and took back taiwan
if you are the leader of your country and a parts of it want to gain its independence wouldn't want to stop that? if you let it go I'm sure that you would be hated by all of your countrymen

Taiwan want more military supplies but china is not really making much threats to taiwan the only think they did was rattle the saber. the americans made clear that they did not want any side to change the present situation. China had not done anything it is taiwan that want to change it all.

From what I have studied, chivalry was invented in the middle ages as a way of keeping the knights in line. Possibly part of the Peace of God movement? I've studied both and they both have similar aims, but don't know if they were explicitly linked. After all, most of the time they were sacking towns, pillaging, murdering, raping...chivalry was a way of stopping all that, or at least against the privilaged and clergy. Peasants were the property of other landowners, and fair game.

On the other hand, samurai were no better. They treated peasants as scum and would do things like slash a peasant in half just to check if their katana was sharp enough. They were also excessively sexist to the point of many samurai being homosexual - they thought sex with women weakened them. The whole idea of samurai being "honourable" depends largely on how you define honour...they don't seem very honourable to me, but that would be judging them by modern western standards.

As for the Spartan and Knight - i'd put my money on the Spartans if it were a battle, but in individual combat i'd say Knight, purely on the basis of superiour equipment.



I personally think a lot of this whole idea that every single Japanese warrior was a fanatic who would never back down is a load of crap, and a case of people confusing the ideal with the reality. Yes, in THEORY no one would ever give up, but that doesn't mean it never happened. Are there no cases of Japanese fleeing from battle at all ever? Fantacism was encouraged among christian armies in the crusades...doesn't mean every single soilder would follow it.

Well...if you were fighting a horde of pikemen on their own with a wide range of Japanese troop types you probably could win. However, if a standard European army was facing a group of unsupported Ashigaru it would be a complete massacre. Pikemen were used in conjunction with arquebusiers, cannon and cavalry - they wouldn't just fight on their own.

I would agree with you that not all ashigaru and other troops were all fanatics, but you have to realize that we're talking about a people whose only occupation for over 300 years was war...not to mention that they have an entire different idealogical mind set when it comes to things like war and dying, very different from Europeans of the time whom they considered barbarians.

Once you understand that point, you will see why it is that Khalivad is defending the 'fanatics' thing.

And that Crusader line is bull, in my opinion, on the basis that most of their armies were made up of ex-criminals, theives, adventurers, and a few nobles out for a good time. Not exactly the greatest basis for a comparison on fanaticism in my book.

Laenis, I am right now studying in Osaka,Japan going further into the history of the Sengoku Jidai period. (I happen to be an otaku on the subject, very facinating) And while your arguement holds some weight, Khalivad and Thrashia are correct. Not to say that they are entirely right. Khalivad is mistaken in that all Ashigaru (footman in japanese) were fanatics. (Unless you count those who served under Oda Nobunaga in the later 16th century period, my nations name-sake, who viewed their lord as unbeatable)

Thrashia is correct as well as Khalivad in their point on 'mind sets'. The Japanese are a people apart. If you were to paint the world in colors according to their idealogies, Japan would be a singular colored nation. Their life style, minds, history, and sense of honor is above any which has yet surfaced on the earth.

Chivalry was indeed a farce created in the late 16th century, when Renaissance poets and writers thought to create a brighter past for themselves and their culture. The New World was being discovered at this time and Islam was on the rise and many writers saw it as a way to defend the actions made by men in the crusades and those armies of petty kings who had fought for many years before hand. It was a cultural way of reinventing themselves.

On the question of a European army vs a Japanese one. Once thing I found is that, should you arm a Japanese army with guns and the like, in a European fashion; they would destroy any European army. You have to understand that some daimyo (fuedal lords) fielded larger armies than the King of France and England combined. From just that time period it would require the uniting of the entire Holy Roman Empire, Italian Princeps, France, England, and all the smaller nations at the time to be able to even get close to the large armies that Toyotomi Hideyoshi or Tokugawa Ieyasu fielded. It would have been quite easy, had the japanese been united and had a 'time period-modern' navy, for them to over-run Europe.

And that Crusader line is bull, in my opinion, on the basis that most of their armies were made up of ex-criminals, theives, adventurers, and a few nobles out for a good time. Not exactly the greatest basis for a comparison on fanaticism in my book.

The same type of people - criminals, thieves, the occasional adventurer and a few nobles were the same ones who made up the British army in the Napoleonic wars. The French army was a conscript army, and was better at everything - Billeting, marching, foraging - the only thing they were worse at was fighting. The British army were made up what Wellington said were the "Scum of the earth" - many were criminals who had being given a choice of the army or the scaffold. Others were Irish, joining to make a better living than they had at home. There were the occasional patriots and adventurers who joined to serve their country or for glory, but most who served there were running away from something or other. However, they were one of the most determind and fierce armies at the time. I think that the combination of pride and not really having much to loose made them more unwilling to relent.

One of my favourite stories is of this corporal (or maybe sergeant?) who joined the army as a private soilder, charged into a formation of about 96 French soilders and captured a French Imperial eagle. He was obviously rewarded handsomely, and he quit the army and set up his own pub in the north. I dunno why, but the idea of him doing that afterwards always makes me smile.

But, i'm sorry, i'm going waaay off topic here!

Thrashia is correct as well as Khalivad in their point on 'mind sets'. The Japanese are a people apart. If you were to paint the world in colors according to their idealogies, Japan would be a singular colored nation. Their life style, minds, history, and sense of honor is above any which has yet surfaced on the earth.


That kind of view worries me - I really don't see their lifestyle, mindset or sense of honour as 'above any which has yet surfaced on the earth' in any way to any other. In fact, to me, a lot of it is incredibly stupid. The whole overly strict politeness codes for example...that doesn't show respect, it just is being reallytedious. I thought us British were too polite, but in Japan it's always being such a big thing, it restricts social discourse in my view. I also think that the way they treat women is hardly 'honourable', as well as their racist tendancies which obviously are a strong undercurrent judging from the "No non-japanese" signs shown on that website. They also have a worrying history of opressing the Chinese and regarding 'gaijin' as sub human - just look at how they treated POWs. They seemed to have shaped up since then, but it's not completely gone.

Every nation has it's plus points and bad points, and I find the tendancy of people to ignore Japans bad points a bit annoying.

Look I want to vote for Japan. I hate China because they are an oppressive nation that has murdered 100,000,000 of their people. They also threaten Taiwan. I won't vote though. Japan has committed 2 sins that can't be forgiven. 1. Giving us Anime. 2. giving us Pokemon.