NationStates Jolt Archive

I always hear people say that those who commit suicide automatically goto hell. For me thats a hard pill to swallow. I can think of several instances of things that might be considered suicide, but i hardly think they would goto hell.

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life. Now thats not the typical depressed pulling a gun out type of suicide, but i think that does illustrate half of my point.

As for those that are depressed and kill themselves in that way, I don't know if they would goto hell either. I mean obviously they are not in the right mind, so why would God judge as if they were?

So, if anybody of faith can give me some help on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to find some scripture, but to no avail.

I always hear people say that those who commit suicide automatically goto hell. For me thats a hard pill to swallow. I can think of several instances of things that might be considered suicide, but i hardly think they would goto hell.

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life. Now thats not the typical depressed pulling a gun out type of suicide, but i think that does illustrate half of my point.

As for those that are depressed and kill themselves in that way, I don't know if they would goto hell either. I mean obviously they are not in the right mind, so why would God judge as if they were?

So, if anybody of faith can give me some help on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to find some scripture, but to no avail.

Since there is no hell or any afterlife at all, you shouldn't worry about it.

Since there is no hell or any afterlife at all, you shouldn't worry about it.


Well from your point of view, that is correct. However I am looking for help from someone with a similiar point of view as my own. But thanks chap.

***note*** i didn't see that someone else already has a thread on suicide

Well, if you take the literal translation of the word sin, i.e. a "mistake" then in some cases I guess so. But, I tend to see the offing of one's self a conscious choice. And, in a world filled with six billion people and counting, who has the right to condemn that choice?

I always hear people say that those who commit suicide automatically goto hell. For me thats a hard pill to swallow. I can think of several instances of things that might be considered suicide, but i hardly think they would goto hell.

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life. Now thats not the typical depressed pulling a gun out type of suicide, but i think that does illustrate half of my point.

As for those that are depressed and kill themselves in that way, I don't know if they would goto hell either. I mean obviously they are not in the right mind, so why would God judge as if they were?

So, if anybody of faith can give me some help on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to find some scripture, but to no avail.

I'm a semi-agnostic Jew. (I'm such a skeptic, I'm even skeptical about my own skepticism.) I don't beleive suicide is a sin in most causes. (Only if you do it do set an example, hoping others follow in your path, that sort of thing.)

But self-sacrifice, and people who are not of sound mind, they care not doomed to hell. I'm in a mixed boat over physician assisted suicide though.

Yes, according to Christain beliefs, suicide's a sin.

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life.
That's not suicide, that's self-sacrifice, the greatest form of love.

As for those that are depressed and kill themselves in that way, I don't know if they would goto hell either. I mean obviously they are not in the right mind, so why would God judge as if they were?
Not all of them lack the right mind. In my opinion, if you have the courage to pull the trigger, you must use it to face your problems in life.

Since there is no hell or any afterlife at all, you shouldn't worry about it.
That's right, just eternal nothingness. So much better, isn't it?

I say Go for it!! Suicide for the Win!!


I'm right behiind yer just to let ya know,...one more fucking setback, and im done with life. YAY!!

see you real soon.

Rich

Traditionally suicide has been viewed (by the Catholic Church) as a mortal sin, mostly since life is a gift from God, and ending your own life would be going in the face of/against God, also you can probably thank Dante and some Medieval theologians for the whole suiciders go to hell thing. The truth of the matter is that no one knows who goes to hell and who doesn't, since the only person who's been there and back is Jesus, who only talked about heaven. The idea of hell was more developed in the middle ages, off of the original jewish idea of the underworld, with a smattering of pagan ideals thrown in. If If you haven't seen the movie, "what dreams may come" with Robin Williams, i would recomend it, I like how it deals with the whole heaven/hell/suicide thing, and theologically speaking it's mostly accurate.

Hope this helps

Oops, the thread was double posted and I first posted this in the other one, ah well:

It's because Catholic morality came from Aquinas and Aquinas used a lot of Aristotle in his work.

Aristotlean Virtue Theory (which I think is the origin of the Seven Deadly sins but I'm not sure on this point) says that rather than judge individual actions we should cultivate a noble personality and then we will know what the right thing to do is. It also speaks of the pinacle of virtue being Eudaimonia (true Happiness with a capital H) and holds that achieving Eudaimonia is the true goal of life.

Virtue Theory is generally against suicide because it is thought of as an action derived from cowardice (a vice), not virtue, it also deprives a person of the chance to achieve Eudaimonia.

*copied from the other thread*

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life.

In the suicide topic I used the same argument, as well as that Jesus himself can be argued to have committed suicide to save mankind - in the hope that people would understand that saying suicide is always "selfish, sinful and cowardly" is rather shortsighted.
It was ignored.

Now thats not the typical depressed pulling a gun out type of suicide, but i think that does illustrate half of my point.

Quite a lot of people commit suicide because they genuinely believe the world would be a better place without them, that their death would make the lifes of others better. Your point is therefor quite valid.
Of course, their belief often is not actually factual, but caused by depression - but that doesn't take away the fact that their motives are quite noble.

That's not suicide, that's self-sacrifice, the greatest form of love.

And the difference is.... ?

That's not suicide, that's self-sacrifice, the greatest form of love.

It is still a form of suicide though. Saying that is ok opens up the whole issue of sins in context e.g do you believe killing is ok if it's in a 'just war'?

Saying that is ok opens up the whole issue of sins in context e.g do you believe killing is ok if it's in a 'just war'?

Well, since the 10 commandments lay out clearly the word of God:

"Thou shalt not kill"

Then I think it's fair to say that from a christian point of view, that killing, be it yourself or someone else, is wrong. Note however, the holy crusades, when our most revered lord took back his word and said to the pope:

"Thou shalt not kill, unless they are Jewish, Orthodox Christian, Muslim, Or in fact, any faith other than catholic christainity which happens to have land in the middle east."

Many would say that this justifies wars... but I'll not go there, and please don't quote me on that.

Personally I don't believe in suicide, even for a "Noble" cause. HUmans are naturally egoist, its sort of built in to our nature. The only reason we would sacrifice ourselves for another is if we already knew we were going to die, but might be able to save another.

Break it down. Generally, the military won't report that "your son/daughter died in a suicidal jump that saved the platoon." More like "valiantly on the field of battle" so that the religious folks will not see the word suicide. Such is the loophole.

Is it a sin? As an atheist I believe that sin is self-prescribed. If you feel there are no better options, you may want to off yourself. Just think of others who are affected before hand.

-snip-The truth of the matter is that no one knows who goes to hell and who doesn't, since the only person who's been there and back is Jesus, who only talked about heaven. The idea of hell was more developed in the middle ages, off of the original jewish idea of the underworld, with a smattering of pagan ideals thrown in. -snip-

Actually, Jesus spoke about hell quite often:

Mark 9: 43-48:
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

and Matthew 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

and Matthew 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

There is more, but that is a sampling.

Interesting that in the Mark passage, he is saying that it is better to mutilate yourself than to end up in Hell, if that is what it takes to stop yourself from sinning.

Understandable why some people/denominations prefer to believe in eternal nothingness/annihilation instead.;)

I always hear people say that those who commit suicide automatically goto hell. For me thats a hard pill to swallow. I can think of several instances of things that might be considered suicide, but i hardly think they would goto hell.

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life. Now thats not the typical depressed pulling a gun out type of suicide, but i think that does illustrate half of my point.

As for those that are depressed and kill themselves in that way, I don't know if they would goto hell either. I mean obviously they are not in the right mind, so why would God judge as if they were?

So, if anybody of faith can give me some help on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to find some scripture, but to no avail.

What does "go to hell" mean?

To me it means to enter into that place of torment and unreconcilable
contradiction (which IS torment), which is actually a state of mind more than
a physical place.

Why would PURPOSEFULLY ending your own life,.. which I take to mean
starting the process of shutting down all your physiological systems such
that you enter into that "twilight" of near death before your physical/mental
biochemistry stops entirely,.. send you into this "hell" that I describe above?

While you still have a "mind" to experience with, before you completely shut
down (become DEAD), the things that you are "thinking about" will remain
with you into this "dreamlike twilight".

There, they may become actual "dreamlike" objects, as in sleeping dreams,
and will do what objects like that do. And that could be either a very good or
very bad "dream".

If your "mind" is filled with "bad things", it's likely that those bad things would
create a "bad dream" at your end.

So the question is your motivation for killing yourself, and what is "in your
mind" when you start the "shutdown sequence", and what effect that will
have on your final "dream".

I'm of the opinion that ANY experience is better than NO expience. By NO
experience I mean being dead.

Even being tortured to death would be prefereable to NOTHING because it
would, to me and perhaps only to me, be "rewarded" in my final "dream" as an
ultimate "contrast".

If I'm "righteous" in my mind about what I've done with my life, and therefore
don't "deserve" to be tortured to death, the final experience of release from
the pain into that place where all worries are forgotten and all that remains is
the felt "unity" with "what remains" (aka "heaven"), is a wonderful thing.

If I'm NOT "righteous", then I will experience the "hell" of trying to "too
quickly" justify/rectify/rationalize my past behavior with entities (the "dream
objects") that feed on my pathetic attempts to "please them"
(negotiate/plead) and merely torture me more for my trying.

Eventually, if I've NOT been "righteous", the "dream objects" that torment me
will stop doing so, and allow me to experience the "unification" with
my "heaven",.. but not after putting me through quite the ringer.

So,.. the question of the consequences of suicide are the consequences of
starting an irreversible process that will invariably cause you to go to your
hell or your heaven based on how "righteous" you, in your SOUL (where it is
impossible to fool yourself), are.

Those who think that suicide is simply "shutting the light" with no experiential
consequences are wrong, and will have quite the surprise when the end
comes.

Those who are prepared for their end can predict their "destination" if they
are honest with themselves.

It is for each of us to decide for ourselves, then, whether it is a "sin" (a
mistake with consequences) to kill ourselves or not.

God's part in this process is simply as "the catcher" of your "soul" (the "you"
that experiences your final "dream"). He doesn't judge you. The judging is
YOUR job.


-Iakeo

Personally I don't believe in suicide, even for a "Noble" cause. HUmans are naturally egoist, its sort of built in to our nature. The only reason we would sacrifice ourselves for another is if we already knew we were going to die, but might be able to save another.

Some would possibly also be willing to donate vital organs to save their offspring.

And now for question number 2: if someone *wants* to die, for mainly "selfish" reasons - should he be forbidden to do that ?
Possible "selfish" reasons are for instance unbearable suffering (e.g. due to a terminal disease), fearing a severe reduction of quality of life in the near future (a fear of dementia, start of the aforementioned disease or perhaps even a severe loss of income) or perhaps being exactly 100 years old and believing that is a pretty number to have on your grave. Anything the person in question him/herself considers a good and valid reason to end his/her own life.

Actually, Jesus spoke about hell quite often:

Mark 9: 43-48:
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

and Matthew 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

and Matthew 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

There is more, but that is a sampling.

Interesting that in the Mark passage, he is saying that it is better to mutilate yourself than to end up in Hell, if that is what it takes to stop yourself from sinning.

Understandable why some people/denominations prefer to believe in eternal nothingness/annihilation instead.;)

Isn't it odd though that nobody in the Old Testament thinks to mention the existance of Hell? There are huge tracts where the people are threatened with divine retribution if they step out of line but never is the existance of an eternal fire pit mentioned. Funny that, cynical people might draw the conclusion that the concept of Hell only appeared after the Hebrews came into contact with Egyptian, Greek and Roman religions which did have Hells.

Break it down. Generally, the military won't report that "your son/daughter died in a suicidal jump that saved the platoon." More like "valiantly on the field of battle" so that the religious folks will not see the word suicide. Such is the loophole.

Is it a sin? As an atheist I believe that sin is self-prescribed. If you feel there are no better options, you may want to off yourself. Just think of others who are affected before hand.

I really don't think we should be encouraging others to off themselves. I actually attempted suicide once. It's not pretty.

Actually, Jesus spoke about hell quite often:

Mark 9: 43-48:
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

and Matthew 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

and Matthew 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

There is more, but that is a sampling.

Interesting that in the Mark passage, he is saying that it is better to mutilate yourself than to end up in Hell, if that is what it takes to stop yourself from sinning.

The mutilation is not to "stop you from sinning".

It's that the thing mutilated is not necessary for entry into "heaven".

The "offense of the hand", what the hand did, has nothing to do with the
hand but with the INTENTION of the user of the hand.

If the "intention that offends" (and is expressed THROUGH the hand) is not
removed (cut off) then it doesn't matter if the hand is there or not, as you
can't "get into heaven" with that "intention".

He's saying that "hands" (eyes/whatever) have nothing to do
with "righteousness" other than as signs of one's intentions.


Understandable why some people/denominations prefer to believe in eternal nothingness/annihilation instead.;)

I agree. And Jesus's suggestion is that no "thing" is necessary to
enter "heaven", and therefore can be discarded at your whim, if you cultivate
the "righteousness" of your intent.

So, if you don't get caught up in mistaking "evil hands" and "evil eyes"
for "evil behavior [hands] and thoughts [eyes]", then you don't NEED to
mutilate yourself.

The stupid man cuts off his hand when it offends him.
He wise man cuts out the thinking that offends him.
The stupid man will find that when he reaches hell, because he only
considered the expressor, not that expressed, he will have grown another
hand, and it will then make a lovely appetizer for the demons to nibble on.


-Iakeo

Isn't it odd though that nobody in the Old Testament thinks to mention the existance of Hell? There are huge tracts where the people are threatened with divine retribution if they step out of line but never is the existance of an eternal fire pit mentioned. Funny that, cynical people might draw the conclusion that the concept of Hell only appeared after the Hebrews came into contact with Egyptian, Greek and Roman religions which did have Hells.

I believe the "ancient" jewish "hell" was simply a place of chaotic weirdness
that lasted until some "ressurrection".

Is it "Gehenna"..?

The reason people in the "old" parts of the bible weren't threatened
with "hell" was that it was a nonsensical place (and therefore not much of a
threat) for a people who believed that you might "suffer" and be "taught the
consequences of your sins" in a "harsh" way in "gehenna", but from which you
would eventually be ressurrected.

There was no "eternal" anything for those people, other than God himself,..
and to accept the idea that their was an "end" of history, where an eternal
wonderfullness (heaven) or eternal torment (hell) was just silly.

Of course,.. I'm sure someone will argue with my saying that the ancient
hebrews didn't believe in "some form of end of history". And that would be a
fun discussion.

-Iakeo

I believe the "ancient" jewish "hell" was simply a place of chaotic weirdness
that lasted until some "ressurrection".

Is it "Gehenna"..?

The reason people in the "old" parts of the bible weren't threatened
with "hell" was that it was a nonsensical place (and therefore not much of a
threat) for a people who believed that you might "suffer" and be "taught the
consequences of your sins" in a "harsh" way in "gehenna", but from which you
would eventually be ressurrected.

There was no "eternal" anything for those people, other than God himself,..
and to accept the idea that their was an "end" of history, where an eternal
wonderfullness (heaven) or eternal torment (hell) was just silly.

Of course,.. I'm sure someone will argue with my saying that the ancient
hebrews didn't believe in "some form of end of history". And that would be a
fun discussion.

-Iakeo

Jewish "Heaven," "Hell," and/or nothingness, punishments, et al. are up to scholarly interpetation. There is no fixed docterine.

I believe the "ancient" jewish "hell" was simply a place of chaotic weirdness
that lasted until some "ressurrection".

Is it "Gehenna"..?

The reason people in the "old" parts of the bible weren't threatened
with "hell" was that it was a nonsensical place (and therefore not much of a
threat) for a people who believed that you might "suffer" and be "taught the
consequences of your sins" in a "harsh" way in "gehenna", but from which you
would eventually be ressurrected.

There was no "eternal" anything for those people, other than God himself,..
and to accept the idea that their was an "end" of history, where an eternal
wonderfullness (heaven) or eternal torment (hell) was just silly.

Of course,.. I'm sure someone will argue with my saying that the ancient
hebrews didn't believe in "some form of end of history". And that would be a
fun discussion.

-Iakeo

The ancient Hebrew belief was in Sheol, not Gehenna. Everyone went to Sheol and it resembled a giant grave complex. There was never any idea that they would be saved from it or would need to be saved as it wasn't a place of punishment.

That's one of the reasons why the Jews didn't (and still don't) accept Jesus as a messiah: they didn't want saving from Sheol, they wanted a leader in this life.

However, you are correct in saying that nowadays Jewish doctrine concerning the afterlife is very confusing and there are mny different doctrines.

That's not suicide, that's self-sacrifice, the greatest form of love.
And the difference is.... ?
I expected most people to know. Self-sacrifice is done to save others, you die so that others can live.

Since there is no hell or any afterlife at all, you shouldn't worry about it.That's right, just eternal nothingness. So much better, isn't it?It doesn't matter what's better; what you believe is most likely is, in reference to the potential for an afterlife, the important issue.

I second DCD's assertion. As an atheist, I don't believe death by suicide is going to make a difference to what happens after you're dead.

In my theology, suicide is not a sin. Personally I would never commit suicide though.

No, I don't think so.

Taking on the view that there is a heaven, "sin" etc...

Only if the intention is to hurt other people. But the vast vast vast majority of the time that is not the case (only something mainly promoted by the media in films etc) and often it's actually done out of compassion for loved ones the suicidal person believes they are hurting.

I have my own pet theory.

Point 1: If you live a good life, you go to heaven.

Point 2: Heaven is much better than earth.

Point 3: The longer your alive, the more sins you are likely to commit.

Conclusion 1: The shorter your life on this plane, the better the afterlife.

Conclusion 2: Let's all off ourselves.

And since organized religion couldn't deal with most of their followers slitting their wrists, hence the suicide=hell equasion.

But I'm not about to test it out, religious skeptic or no.

I always hear people say that those who commit suicide automatically goto hell. For me thats a hard pill to swallow. I can think of several instances of things that might be considered suicide, but i hardly think they would goto hell.

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life. Now thats not the typical depressed pulling a gun out type of suicide, but i think that does illustrate half of my point.

As for those that are depressed and kill themselves in that way, I don't know if they would goto hell either. I mean obviously they are not in the right mind, so why would God judge as if they were?

So, if anybody of faith can give me some help on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to find some scripture, but to no avail.

Its like you said. It really all depends on the circumstances. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church a sin is defined as " an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is a failue in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods."
In a later section, it states that "sin requires full knowledge and complete consent."

Therefore, the man who dives on the grenade, or the person with a psychological disorder can be excused for committing suicide.

The person who killed themselves out of depression, physical sickness, etc would be considered as sinning because they are "rebelling against God" by essentially throwing their gift of life back at God.

That is, if I interpreted it right.

Yes

I do not believe suicide is a sin, but I do think suicide is wasting the gift one has been given; life.

And since I believe in re-birth (I am Buddhist), I also believe that said person will come back to Earth and repeat the life, to learn the lessons again.

Suicide does not give you a free pass from your pain. You will experience them again and again, until they are worked out.

IMHO...I could be wrong.

I always hear people say that those who commit suicide automatically goto hell. For me thats a hard pill to swallow. I can think of several instances of things that might be considered suicide, but i hardly think they would goto hell.

For instance, there is a man in a war, a grenade is thrown in a trench, he jumps on it to save his buddies, though he knows it will be his own life. Now thats not the typical depressed pulling a gun out type of suicide, but i think that does illustrate half of my point.

As for those that are depressed and kill themselves in that way, I don't know if they would goto hell either. I mean obviously they are not in the right mind, so why would God judge as if they were?

So, if anybody of faith can give me some help on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to find some scripture, but to no avail.
It's implicit throughout the Bible. There are over 1,000 references to the word "life" and constant admonitions to not take or to not despise that which God has given. There are portions of the Bible which address the issue more directly, but it would take me considerble time to find them.

Original Post
The only justification for the idea, in my mind, is that suicide in general affects other people. No matter who you are, there is someone who cares for you, and in killing yourself, you may be doing harm to that person. In my opinion, Suicide is a sin if it is done without care for the repercussions on those around you. If you have consulted them and dealt with the issues involved, I think Self-Euthanising", or suicide to prevent inevitable pain due to disease, wouldn't be considered a Sin.

It's fine if, but only if, you've dealt with the repercussions of the action before you do it.

according to judaism, suicide is a sin, you are not allowed to take anyones life, as it is given to them by god, there would be some exceptions, of course. fortunately you can't go to hell for it because hell doesn't exist.
i personally think that in many cases it would be the cheats way out, only in certain circtumstances would i say it's the right or ok way to go

"The christians love their guns" NOFX - The decline

---> to be used on others, never on one´self


sorry for this very generalizing and rude comment, it´s hypocrisy you see, its stench drew me...

The only justification for the idea, in my mind, is that suicide in general affects other people. No matter who you are, there is someone who cares for you, and in killing yourself, you may be doing harm to that person. In my opinion, Suicide is a sin if it is done without care for the repercussions on those around you. If you have consulted them and dealt with the issues involved, I think Self-Euthanising", or suicide to prevent inevitable pain due to disease, wouldn't be considered a Sin.

It's fine if, but only if, you've dealt with the repercussions of the action before you do it.
Which raises an interesting issue: is it suicide when you simply stop eating? Is it suicide when you wander off into the woods as the Nez Perce Indians use to do when they were no longer able to contribute to the tribe? Is it suicide to do any of a number of things which are acts which will ultimately kill you, even though they don't involve taking an overdose, or shooting yourself, or slashing your wrists? What about continuing to do something you know is bad for you, like smoking? Isn't that the equivalent of a sort of "slow suicide?"

And beyond that, what about "suicide by cop?" Is there such a thing as "suicide by proxy?" And if so, is it the same as "regular" suicide?

I don't know how anyone here can vote for yes or no on this one. No one here on this planet speaks for God, and no one has for 2000 years. Isn't it God's job to decide whats evil, and whats immoral.

And for those of you who start quoting the Bible for me telling me its wrong let me remind you that the Bible has been translated over and over and over again (by humans who are fallible) that some lines can be misinterpreted.

Now that I have said that. I personally belive that suicide is a very selfish act. People who commit suicide are only thinking inwards and are not thinking about all the people they effect when they do that, but again, its not up to me to decide if its a sin or not, last time I checked I was not annionted to be the 2nd comming of Christ.

I've never understood the mindset that would say that suffering one of the symptoms of mental illness is a "sin" for which one burns in everlasting hellfire.

(Of course, I've never understood why most "sins" would be justly punihsed by everlasting hellfire.)

It is interesting that no one has actually posted a Bible quote yet that is specific on this issue. :eek:

Are you sure there are some, Eut? :confused:

And for those of you who start quoting the Bible for me telling me its wrong let me remind you that the Bible has been translated over and over and over again (by humans who are fallible) that some lines can be misinterpreted.
and that's why the jewish scholars have been reinterpreting them constantly since we got the original words of god. anyway, it is far worse for us to sit here and wait for hime to come along and repeat himself

I've never understood the mindset that would say that suffering one of the symptoms of mental illness is a "sin" for which one burns in everlasting hellfire.

(Of course, I've never understood why most "sins" would be justly punihsed by everlasting hellfire.)
and that's why us jews will never convert to christianity, who would actually believe that god would actually send anyone to hell?

Yes, suicide is a sin from a Biblical point of view.

First, the body is the temple of God:

1 Corinthians 6:19 (New International Version): "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;"

If you accept that you are not your own, then it is God's property you destroy with suicide, not your own.

Second, we are to love God, our neighbors, and ourselves:

Mark 12:33 (New International Version): "To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Suicide is a selfish act, which hurts not only the Self, but God and the neighbors as well. It is in direct opposition to the two commandments which Christ clearly stated were most important.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, suicide is a sin from a Biblical point of view.
<snip>
yeah, but it would've been better if you'd have used things from the torah or "old testament" as you christians call it. anyway, it directly violates the commandment "though shalt not kill" it never specifies that it doesn't include yourself
EDIT: yay, 800 posts

Yes, suicide is a sin from a Biblical point of view.

First, the body is the temple of God:

1 Corinthians 6:19 (New International Version): "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;"

If you accept that you are not your own, then it is God's property you destroy with suicide, not your own.

Second, we are to love God, our neighbors, and ourselves:

Mark 12:33 (New International Version): "To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Suicide is a selfish act, which hurts not only the Self, but God and the neighbors as well. It is in direct opposition to the two commandments which Christ clearly stated were most important.

Does that answer your question?

The Corinthians quote is pretty good, but is there any "thou shall not kill thyself" quote somewhere.

Although I don't share your beliefs, I found your explanation very good.

yeah, but it would've been better if you'd have used things from the torah or "old testament" as you christians call it. anyway, it directly violates the commandment "though shalt not kill" it never specifies that it doesn't include yourself.

Some Christians do not follow the Old Testament, as they believe it is the "Old Covenant" and was wiped clean with the ressurrection of Christ. When answering a Christian's question, it is better to quote the New Testament if possible, just so there's no argument about which Covenant is being referred to.

The Corinthians quote is pretty good, but is there any "thou shall not kill thyself" quote somewhere.

Not specifically, no. Perhaps the authors believed that fell in the realm of good old-fashioned common sense. I know I do. :)

I always hear people say that those who commit suicide automatically goto hell. For me thats a hard pill to swallow. I can think of several instances of things that might be considered suicide, but i hardly think they would goto hell.

Suicide is a sin, all sin can/will send you to hell, if you don't accept Christ as your savior, I don't believe that after you accept Him, that any further sins can take away His promise.

so I suppose what I am saying is that yes it's a sin, but not any worse than any others, and that going to hell or not going to hell depends on your circumstances.

Suicide is a sin, all sin can/will send you to hell, if you don't accept Christ as your savior, I don't believe that after you accept Him, that any further sins can take away His promise.

so I suppose what I am saying is that yes it's a sin, but not any worse than any others, and that going to hell or not going to hell depends on your circumstances.

OK, you confused me.

1) All sin can send you to Hell if you don't accept Christ as your savior
2) If you do accept Christ as your savior, you don't go to hell even if you sin?

So sin is irrelevant. Acceptance or not of Christ determines if you go to hell?

If you don't sin, but don't accept Christ as your savior, are you going to hell?

(I am probably too tired to make sense, but I'm posting this anyway. :D )

OK, you confused me.

1) All sin can send you to Hell if you don't accept Christ as your savior
2) If you do accept Christ as your savior, you don't go to hell even if you sin?

So sin is irrelevant. Acceptance or not of Christ determines if you go to hell?

If you don't sin, but don't accept Christ as your savior, are you going to hell?

(I am probably too tired to make sense, but I'm posting this anyway. :D )


Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

everyone has sinned.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The wages of sin is death (hell) but the gift of God is eternal life (heaven) through Jesus.


I think where it's probably tripping you up, is the once saved always saved thing, which is one of the main things about my denomination that is different than most other protestant denominations, and definatly the Catholic church.


Romans 8:33Who will bring a charge against God's elect?God is the one who justifies;

34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor (things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


hope that helps.

I think that the "thou shall not kill" thing is a slight mistranslation. I think it was originally "thou shall not murder", but since similar, if not identical, words are used for both, it got mistranslated quite easily.

Suicide is a form of murder. It is to murder oneself. If you die trying to save someone, it isn't technicly murder. It's just dying trying to save someone.

As for the whole hell thing: If you truly accept Christ, then you will go to heaven. If you truly accept him, then you won't go around sinning all day and all night. You won't go around tring to lie, murder, steal, etc. as much as you can. It's more complex than "saying you accept Christ will automaticly save you no matter what" because that's like trying to climb a gas-soaked rope ladder while you're on fire and a fire extinguisher is right next to you, but you won't use it. Of course, if you haven't heard "the word", then you'll be judged just on what your life was like. Keep in mind that all sins are equal in the eyes of god and that the concept of some sins being worse than others is a human concept. This is my interpretation, fo course.

hope that helps.

Suprisingly, it does. Thanks.

Suprisingly, it does. Thanks.
Oh, thank God. I was waiting for you to come back with the whole "Paul" argument that I keep getting. I am trying to find a diplomatic way to deal with that one. LOL

It all depends on the reason. In the grenade instance, the bible says "Greater love has no one, than he that lays down his life for his friend" Yada Yada


The gun to the head is a bit harder. We can'tknow what's in somebodys head when htey do it, so we have to wait and see. :)

Oh, thank God. I was waiting for you to come back with the whole "Paul" argument that I keep getting. I am trying to find a diplomatic way to deal with that one. LOL

Uh-oh. Now I want to know the "Paul" argument. :D

Uh-oh. Now I want to know the "Paul" argument. :D
you should check with UpwardThrust and Grave_n_Idle for the details, but basically since "Paul never met Jesus" then he really doesn't have anything productive to say about Christianity and I shouldn't use him to explain any of what I believe. Oh, and then they go on about how the gospels are unreliable, and that the old testament shouldn't ever be referenced, and so basically that's all the Bible, and I am left with "I believe that because I do" which then isn't good enough, and I get stuck with a "don't believe it, unless you can scientifically prove it" which really goes against what I believe about God anyway, and it's pointless to try to explain at that point.
:headbang:

I am sure you can understand my frustration.

you should check with UpwardThrust and Grave_n_Idle for the details, but basically since "Paul never met Jesus" then he really doesn't have anything productive to say about Christianity and I shouldn't use him to explain any of what I believe. Oh, and then they go on about how the gospels are unreliable, and that the old testament shouldn't ever be referenced, and so basically that's all the Bible, and I am left with "I believe that because I do" which then isn't good enough, and I get stuck with a "don't believe it, unless you can scientifically prove it" which really goes against what I believe about God anyway, and it's pointless to try to explain at that point.
:headbang:

I am sure you can understand my frustration.

I sure can. :D

I'm actually on their side of the fence beliefs wise, but that makes it easy to see why your side would be frustrating. (I'm not implying its frustrating because it is wrong. I'm saying I understand both sides.)

EDIT: Also I understand why arguing with UT and GnI is rewarding but frustrating.

I really should go to bed. I'm babbling.

I sure can. :D

I'm actually on their side of the fence beliefs wise, but that makes it easy to see why your side would be frustrating. (I'm not implying its frustrating because it is wrong. I'm saying I understand both sides.)

EDIT: Also I understand why arguing with UT and GnI is rewarding but frustrating.

I really should go to bed. I'm babbling.
no, you still make sense........maybe I should go to sleep LOL

I enjoy debating with them until they get into the 'back smunkee into a corner' mood, then it's frustrating.

yes it is a sin from the religious point of view, but considering the fact i in a lot of ways don't agree with the religous view, i myself don't think it's a sin. i think it's a very sad thing and something that is defenitely preventable when depression etc is treated the right way. and that doesn't mean useless visits to the psychiatrist; it means medicine.

i mean, when you've got diabetes you need pills don't you? just because it's in your brain doesn't mean it isn't physical.

you should check with UpwardThrust and Grave_n_Idle for the details, but basically since "Paul never met Jesus" then he really doesn't have anything productive to say about Christianity and I shouldn't use him to explain any of what I believe. Oh, and then they go on about how the gospels are unreliable, and that the old testament shouldn't ever be referenced, and so basically that's all the Bible, and I am left with "I believe that because I do" which then isn't good enough, and I get stuck with a "don't believe it, unless you can scientifically prove it" which really goes against what I believe about God anyway, and it's pointless to try to explain at that point.
:headbang:

I am sure you can understand my frustration.

I don't think GnI is generally arguing that Paul "has nothing productive to say about Christianity," he simply says that Paul is not Christ, and thus does not have the same level of authority. I tend to think of Paul in the same way as my local minister. He has a great deal to say about Christianity, but it is his view of how to follow Christ, and he may have some things wrong, just like all of us. I think GnI looks at him as a preacher who twisted things a bit too much, and in some cases, I agree. In others, I think Paul was probably right - and is often misinterpreted by the modern church.

no its not, i mean if they hate themselves that much. good riddance. they should leave anyways. just kidding. it should be prevented, however its not a sin if the person really wants it that bad.

no its not, i mean if they hate themselves that much. good riddance. they should leave anyways. just kidding. it should be prevented, however its not a sin if the person really wants it that bad.
how is it not a sin just because a person "really wants it", that doesn't even make sense........ either it's wrong or it's not, which is it?

suicide is a waste, so if waste is a sin...

personaly i think any religion that ties down individual freedom is more sinfull. we all have our own free will to act as "decent" human beings, we don't need laws and religions to tell us whats decent. its a matter of thinking by yourself if you would like to be treaten as you treat others.

so if i can stop anybody from wasting his or her life, i prevented a waste. i don't like people wasting an unfinished life, but that doesn't mean i can't understand their reasons.

as said before, it takes courage to make the decision, courage that also can be used to solve the problem. besides the pain you cause to your loved one's, just imagine the pain to yourself IF there is another life that shows your decision wasn't the only solution...

i wish all that think about this the strenght to make the right choice. keep in mind that it's realy "game over" and no chance to insert another coin to continiue...

I made the attempt. I knew what I was doing. I really wanted it to be "game over." It was the wrong choice, but most (hopefully all) of you haven't had expirences anywhere near as bad as me.

Yes. Don't do it.

I'm of the inclination that, as our bodies are temples of the Lord (thus, His and not ours), we would be destroying something that doesn't belong to us. The same goes for other damaging choices, like overeating, smoking, excessive alcohol consumption, etc. You're damaging property that doesn't belong to you.

That being said, I'm not too sure that it would be considered a mortal sin, that is, a sin so unforgivable that, even if you're Christian, you're damned for all eternity. I believe, and I could be mistaken, that there is a place in scripture that mentions only one unforgivable sin, and that's 'blasphemy against the Spirit'. (If someone could find that for me, I'd be very grateful--I'm about to head off to class, so don't have the time to search for it myself.) Now, some have speculated that suicide is indeed blasphemy against the Spirit, and others say that it simply means rejecting belief/relatiohship in Him (i.e. Christ, God, the Trinity and such). I myself am not sure of its true intent, so I won't be of the former that condemns suicides to Hell.

All I really know is that I'd very much like to respect the temple given to me, and I'd really rather not kill myself out of despair or loss of hope.

I'm of the inclination that, as our bodies are temples of the Lord (thus, His and not ours), we would be destroying something that doesn't belong to us. The same goes for other damaging choices, like overeating, smoking, excessive alcohol consumption, etc. You're damaging property that doesn't belong to you.

That being said, I'm not too sure that it would be considered a mortal sin, that is, a sin so unforgivable that, even if you're Christian, you're damned for all eternity. I believe, and I could be mistaken, that there is a place in scripture that mentions only one unforgivable sin, and that's 'blasphemy against the Spirit'. (If someone could find that for me, I'd be very grateful--I'm about to head off to class, so don't have the time to search for it myself.) Now, some have speculated that suicide is indeed blasphemy against the Spirit, and others say that it simply means rejecting belief/relatiohship in Him (i.e. Christ, God, the Trinity and such). I myself am not sure of its true intent, so I won't be of the former that condemns suicides to Hell.

All I really know is that I'd very much like to respect the temple given to me, and I'd really rather not kill myself out of despair or loss of hope.

Not sure of the scripture reference--but "blasphemy against the [Holy] Spirit" is the only unforgivable sin.

I'm of the inclination that, as our bodies are temples of the Lord (thus, His and not ours), we would be destroying something that doesn't belong to us. The same goes for other damaging choices, like overeating, smoking, excessive alcohol consumption, etc. You're damaging property that doesn't belong to you.

But did you ask to be given the use of His property ? Did you make an agreement ?

in the bible it says that blasphamy is the only mortal sin, every thing else is a forgivable sin. so suicide is not blashpemy, there for its a sin jus not a mortal sin

...it depends on what religion you prescribe to.

So under Christianity I'd say: yep, it's a highway to hell.

But under the relgious values I do believe in I'd say: not at all, deal again.

Someone earlier mentioned suicide by heroic virtue isn't suicide - "it's self sacrifice, the greatest form of love". Q: Did Christ commit suicide because he knew in advance he was sacrificing himself?

...hmmm... could be a sleepless night tonight.

how is it not a sin just because a person "really wants it", that doesn't even make sense........ either it's wrong or it's not, which is it?

I agree that whether or not someone "really wants it" does not determine the sinfulness of an action. I could really, really want my neighboor's car, but stealing it would still be sinful (unless I was stealing it to drive an injured person to the hospital or something else like that.)

But I also don't think you can say, "Either it's wrong or it's not." Suicide, like most human actions, is complicated. I'm willing to say that I think suicide is generally wrong, just like I think killing is generally wrong, or stealing is generally wrong. But there are *always* special cases. I don't think it is wrong to kill someone to prevent them from harming a child, for instance. In such an instance, you can prevent more harm than you cause. I don't think stealing to eat is wrong. If you cannot buy food, and no one will give it to you, then steal away. And I am certain that there are instances in which suicide, as abhorrent as it may seem, is actually the right choice. Only God knows the true intent behind someone's actions, and only God can accurately judge them. The rest of us are most often speculating.

A large part of Christ's message was to stop being so legalistic - to realize the spirit of the law, rather than worrying so much about the letter of the law. I think the idea of, "X is wrong in all situations, no matter what," is something we should try to avoid. There may be a few things that fall under that category, but I'm not sure what they would be.

I agree that whether or not someone "really wants it" does not determine the sinfulness of an action. I could really, really want my neighboor's car, but stealing it would still be sinful (unless I was stealing it to drive an injured person to the hospital or something else like that.)

But I also don't think you can say, "Either it's wrong or it's not." Suicide, like most human actions, is complicated. I'm willing to say that I think suicide is generally wrong, just like I think killing is generally wrong, or stealing is generally wrong. But there are *always* special cases. I don't think it is wrong to kill someone to prevent them from harming a child, for instance. In such an instance, you can prevent more harm than you cause. I don't think stealing to eat is wrong. If you cannot buy food, and no one will give it to you, then steal away. And I am certain that there are instances in which suicide, as abhorrent as it may seem, is actually the right choice. Only God knows the true intent behind someone's actions, and only God can accurately judge them. The rest of us are most often speculating.

A large part of Christ's message was to stop being so legalistic - to realize the spirit of the law, rather than worrying so much about the letter of the law. I think the idea of, "X is wrong in all situations, no matter what," is something we should try to avoid. There may be a few things that fall under that category, but I'm not sure what they would be.
true.

Originally Posted by Deiakeos
I believe the "ancient" jewish "hell" was simply a place of chaotic weirdness
that lasted until some "ressurrection".

Is it "Gehenna"..?

The reason people in the "old" parts of the bible weren't threatened
with "hell" was that it was a nonsensical place (and therefore not much of a
threat) for a people who believed that you might "suffer" and be "taught the
consequences of your sins" in a "harsh" way in "gehenna", but from which you
would eventually be ressurrected.

There was no "eternal" anything for those people, other than God himself,..
and to accept the idea that their was an "end" of history, where an eternal
wonderfullness (heaven) or eternal torment (hell) was just silly.

Of course,.. I'm sure someone will argue with my saying that the ancient
hebrews didn't believe in "some form of end of history". And that would be a
fun discussion.

-Iakeo

The ancient Hebrew belief was in Sheol, not Gehenna. Everyone went to Sheol and it resembled a giant grave complex. There was never any idea that they would be saved from it or would need to be saved as it wasn't a place of punishment.

That's one of the reasons why the Jews didn't (and still don't) accept Jesus as a messiah: they didn't want saving from Sheol, they wanted a leader in this life.

However, you are correct in saying that nowadays Jewish doctrine concerning the afterlife is very confusing and there are mny different doctrines.

On Sheol and Gehenna (Gehinnom, whatever..) :
http://web.archive.org/web/20030416191714/ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ304.HTM

"Gehinnom is the name given to Hell in the Rabbinic literature. The name was borrowed from that of a real valley (see Joshua 15:2,8 and 18:16; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron.28:3 and 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31-32 and 19:2,6; Nehemiah 11:30) where burnings took place. See also Isaiah 30:33; Jeremiah 19:11-13; Job 17:6. "

"The word "sheol" occurs in Gen. 37,42, and 44, in Num. 30 and 33, in Job, and many other places in the Bible. Many of its uses imply that it is an underworld inhabited by (the spirits of) the dead, though in many cases it is used only as a term for the lowest point in the universe. Apparently sheol is a place of silence (dumah); see Psalm 115:17. The reference to sheol in 1 Samuel 2:6 and Psalms 30:4 suggest that the dead will be brought back from there at the resurrection. There are about a dozen references to legends about sheol in Ginzberg's Legends of the Jews, and a brief discussion of sheol in the article "Netherworld" in the Encyclopedia Judaica (vol.12, cols. 996-998). "

"The Jewish beliefs about the afterlife involve two ideas: (1) that people are rewarded or punished as soon as they die (or perhaps a year later; see Shab.152b); (2) that when this world comes to an end, everyone who ever lived will be physically resurrected and will then be rewarded or punished. The resurrection of the dead is a key Jewish belief; see Daniel 12:2, Isaiah 26:9 and Ezekiel Ch.37. "

It sounds as if SOMEBODY had the idea of "ressurrection" in mind.

But, yes, the jews of the time (old Roman days at least) wanted a leader,
and instead got a guy that said "Don't worry about it! Give Caesar what is
Caesar's and give God what is God's!", which apparently was not what they
wanted to hear.

Which is why I am, other than also due to the "mom has to be jewish" thing, not a jew.

-Iakeo

I don't know if this has been raised beofre but are you including euthanasia in this 'suicide' thread? Because that changes things if you are.

I certainly hope suicides dont go to hell, ive known quite a few. *!RIP JOHN REYNOLDS.!*

If god sends them to hell, then we need not worry for he is not god.

God creates the depression they suffer
God knows the outcome of the depression will be suicide because he is all-knowing.
Therefore God is a Bastard, or simply doesnt exist.

I don't know if this has been raised beofre but are you including euthanasia in this 'suicide' thread? Because that changes things if you are.

I believe it is included, yes. It may be a more understandable and even justifiable form of suicide, but unless it is someone else making the decision, it is still suicide.

It is interesting that no one has actually posted a Bible quote yet that is specific on this issue. :eek:

Are you sure there are some, Eut? :confused:
Yes, but it's difficult to find them using a concordance because they don't use the term "suicide," and probably not the word "life" either.

As I recall, two of them which together prohibit suicide go something like, "God has given us the gift of breath." And, "All good things come from God." Taken together, it's easy to conclude that since God has given us breath and declared that it is good, it would be wrong to take our own life.

Yes, suicide is a sin from a Biblical point of view.

First, the body is the temple of God:

1 Corinthians 6:19 (New International Version): "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;"

If you accept that you are not your own, then it is God's property you destroy with suicide, not your own.

Second, we are to love God, our neighbors, and ourselves:

Mark 12:33 (New International Version): "To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Suicide is a selfish act, which hurts not only the Self, but God and the neighbors as well. It is in direct opposition to the two commandments which Christ clearly stated were most important.

Does that answer your question?
Good answer. :)

Good answer. :)

But it does beg the counterquestion.. what if you did not want the gift of his temple in the first place ? How does one return it ?

God creates the depression they suffer
Gotta stop you there. Who says he creates depression? Who says he forces suffering upon us? Most depression is either caused by external environmental forces or by our own series of choices. I seriously doubt that God will make someone suffer to cause them to commit suicide.

Now, there are times when he reveals to us the darker aspects of nature and evil, but all to allow us to see Him more clearly. 'Twas the point of Job.

God knows the outcome of the depression will be suicide because he is all-knowing.
He knows the outcome, yes, but he doesn't cause the outcome. Neither does he wish for someone to take their own life. He will not interfere with free will, as that will add autonomy to the whole system, thus completely moot the point of the whole of creation. It's up to the person to commit suicide, not God. It's not forced upon them.

Therefore God is a Bastard, or simply doesnt exist.
Or God is loving enough to allow us our own fates, rather than imposing His own upon us. That's free will for ya.

But it does beg the counterquestion.. what if you did not want the gift of his temple in the first place ? How does one return it ?
By returning it, you are rejecting him, and so it is a sin.

I don't know if this has been raised beofre but are you including euthanasia in this 'suicide' thread? Because that changes things if you are.

Is that "self euthanasia"... which sounds like suicide to me.

If it's "other euthanasia", then that's a whole 'nother ball-o-wax.

-Iakeo

Most sins can be forgiven. God forgives you only if you are sorry about doing the crime(as opposed to sorry you got caught). Suicide is unforgiveable in a sense that it is too late for you to be forgiven. Just be glad they might get a second chance. God has been known to de-kill people. It has happened before. He even saves people from hell, or so the people who were once dead, but aren't now sometimes say.

Of course, suicide is murdering oneself and murder, not killing in general, is a sin. If you kill in self defense or accidently kill someone, it's not murder. It's like robins and birds. Killing is a bird. Murder is a robin. All robins are birds while the inverse is false. Murder is killing, while killing is not always murder. That's explains it.

Gotta stop you there. Who says he creates depression? Who says he forces suffering upon us? Most depression is either caused by external environmental forces or by our own series of choices.

Actually, medically diagnosed depression is caused by chemical imbalances within the brain, and generally has little to do with outside pressures or personal choices.

Actually, medically diagnosed depression is caused by chemical imbalances within the brain, and generally has little to do with outside pressures or personal choices.Exactly. In this way, it is not dissimilar to many 'physical' illnesses. Many people seem reluctant to make that comparison, for some reason. If you have a mental illness many appear to believe that you brought it on yourself, and/or are too lazy/cowardly/selfish/useless to do anything about it. If you have a demonstrably physical illness, however, you have sympathy.

:rolleyes: