NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: I simply cannot imagine such a thing! This guy needs to be bitch-slapped repeatedly until he acquires some sense! Grrrr! :mad:


Recruiter: Legion refused to rent to him (http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1499994.php)


Associated Press
FORT ATKINSON, Wis. — A Navy recruiter said he was told he could not rent an American Legion hall for his retirement party because of his ethnicity.

The building manager told Petty Officer Dale Lawver the hall wasn’t available to “Mexicans” and he didn’t rent to “you people,” said Lawver, a Mexican-American and 19-year Navy veteran.

Lawver said the comments “felt like someone had kicked me right in the stomach.” “Especially with me standing there in uniform, that made it even worse,” he said Friday. “What am I fighting for here? What have I been doing for the last 20 years to be treated like this? This is a place that is supposed to be there for me. I just got a packet in the mail telling me how to join the American Legion.” State American Legion officials are denouncing the treatment, and the Fort Atkinson post fired the building manager, said the post’s lawyer, Vicki Zick.

“I take it as a personal insult that a fellow veteran was treated in any possibly disrespectful way, a man who is honorably serving our country and was hoping to celebrate a milestone in his career,” State Commander Ted Duckworth said. [ As do I! ]

“I am quite certain there are any number of American Legion posts throughout the state who would welcome Petty Officer Lawver with open arms as a guest or a member.” Lawver, a Fort Atkinson resident and a recruiter in Janesville for the past three years, went to the Fort Atkinson post Jan. 2 to see whether he wanted to rent the building for his retirement party this summer.

Lawver said he was told the last time the post rented the hall to Mexicans, they caused problems.

Zick said Legion officials are taking his complaint seriously, though the post could reinstate the manager if the allegations are determined to be untrue.

Lawver served on a ship during the Gulf War and helped land Marines in Pakistan as the United States prepared to invade Afghanistan after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

His attorney, Narciso Aleman, said, “We want for (the building manager) to say he was wrong, that he should not have done that to a person who has given 20 years of his life in service to his country.”

Sometimes an ass beating is the only proper solution. *nod*

Rightously smiting him with a flaming bag of doggy-doo is probably the best way to get the point across.

Sad... the Building Manager should pay for Lawver's retirement.

*sighs* We still have a long way to go.

In or out of uniform, that's just wrong.

What a loser. Ugh. You know, living in the South, I hear people saying derogatory things about Mexicans all the time. Which pisses me off because my husband is half Mexican. Everyone thinks he's Italian or Greek because he doesnt "look like a Mexican" they say. I guess because he speaks perfect English and has a degree in Literature, that must mean he cant be Mexican, so he must........just have a good tan and gorgeous thick black hair. I have actually gone toe to toe with rednecks over their comments about Mexicans when I worked on the jobsite. I hate racism in any form or fashion against anyone. Here this man risked his life in the US Military and he cant even rent a room in a building? What the hell is wrong with people? And in Wisconsin no less:confused:

Rightously smiting him with a flaming bag of doggy-doo is probably the best way to get the point across.
LOL! Hmmm. How far away is Fort Atkinson again??? :D

What the hell is wrong with people?
Some of them are demented and have their heads up their fourth points of contact! :headbang:

Severe Beating, I tell you! Nothing pops an arrogance balloon like three or four sailors stomping on you with boondockers. :)

Severe Beating, I tell you! Nothing pops an arrogance balloon like three or four sailors stomping on you with boondockers. :)
I up for dat! Hell, I've felt like beating the living crap outta SOMEone for quite awhile now. Mwahahahahaha! :D

Severe Beating, I tell you! Nothing pops an arrogance balloon like three or four sailors stomping on you with boondockers. :)

We gotta make sure that they're not mexicans though. We wouldn't want "those people" to have to even touch racist filth like that.

We gotta make sure that they're not mexicans though. We wouldn't want "those people" to have to even touch racist filth like that.
Hahahahaha! Good one! :D

Looks the Mexican-bashing thing is well and alive.

He should have gone to the VFW and asked them.

I don't like the Legion anyway. I very much disagree that they specifically support candidates during elections instead of just supporting specific pieces of legislation the way the VFW does.

Looks the Mexican-bashing thing is well and alive.
Unfortunately there are a number of people who need someone else to look down upon in an effort to make themselves feel better about something they lack ... like intellect! :(

He should have gone to the VFW and asked them.

I don't like the Legion anyway. I very much disagree that they specifically support candidates during elections instead of just supporting specific pieces of legislation the way the VFW does.
Which is precisely one of the reasons I have never joined the Legion. I'm a lifetime member of both the DAV and the VFW, but I wouldn't join the Legion if they offered me free membership for life and a free life insurance policy! :(

Sometimes an ass beating is the only proper solution. *nod*

I don't know. Sometimes a caning is quite effective also.

I don't know. Sometimes a caning is quite effective also.
LOL! I wouldn't know, but the idea has merit! :D

Which is precisely one of the reasons I have never joined the Legion. I'm a lifetime member of both the DAV and the VFW, but I wouldn't join the Legion if they offered me free membership for life and a free life insurance policy! :(

Yeah, I'm a member of the VFW (not life yet, I'm a student and can't afford that) and I would never join the Legion if, as you said, they offered me free membership and insurance.

His attorney, Narciso Aleman, said, “We want for (the building manager) to say he was wrong, that he should not have done that to a person who has given 20 years of his life in service to his country.”
The veteran issue is irrelevant - it's the fact the the manager is racist that's the problem. I don't see why people twist a serious issue about racism into something about respect for veterans, as if it's okay to descriminate against people of Mexican origin who haven't been in the military.

As a start, the Legion should fire the building manager, and issue a public apology to Petty Officer Lawver. Follow on canings, "poo"-ings, etc of the offensive buliding manager could be used to emphasis the point that he is a complete ass. No, wait --- he'd need about 3 promotions to become a complete ass.

Petty Officer Lawver should have gone directly to this cretins supervisor - although it would be understandable if Lawver really didn't want to use the Legion hall anymore after his encounter with the sub-human possible life form running the place.

It is sad enough that racism and discrimination like this exist anywhere targeting any ethnic group. It is even sadder when it's used by a veterans organization against a fellow veteran.

SGM, USA, Ret

Edit - Safalra: It's my feeling, after re-reading all the posts in this thread, that everyone agrees with you. We aren't saying the discrimination against a fellow veteran is the main problem, but rather that it takes a very serious problem - racism - and makes it even worse. Most vets feel about other vets the way a person feels about a brother or sister. This makes it not only racism, but racism within the family.

2nd edit Re-reading the original post reveals that the legion did fire the building manager. And the post commander appears to have apologized. Even so, it's still shameful that this happened.

ever heard of property rights?

the owners can rent or refuse to rent their buildings to whomever they want.

Ive always been an andvocate of the Spanish water tourture.

ever heard of property rights?

the owners can rent or refuse to rent their buildings to whomever they want.

First of all, WRONG!

Second of all, it is clear that the owners of this particular building wanted to rent it out to Petty Officer Lawver, but the racist idiot they hired did not.

it is clear that the owners of this particular building wanted to rent it out to Petty Officer Lawver, but the racist idiot they hired did not.i dont know what american/anglosaxon common law says, but according to european civil law the manager is the representative of the owner and has the power to make business decisions that fall back on the owner as if he had made them himself.

i dont know what american/anglosaxon common law says, but according to european civil law the manager is the representative of the owner and has the power to make business decisions that fall back on the owner as if he had made them himself.

That is the case in the US as well. But, the owners weren't racist (to the best of my knowlege), and would have rented the hall. A property manager is physically able to act on his own.

ever heard of property rights?

the owners can rent or refuse to rent their buildings to whomever they want.
Sure they can, but when they refuse to rent on grounds of racial discrimination, they should be aware of the consequences of doing so ... like for instance, pissed off veterans kicking the manager's sorry ass! :D

i dont know what american/anglosaxon common law says, but according to european civil law the manager is the representative of the owner and has the power to make business decisions that fall back on the owner as if he had made them himself.
In the US, that falls under the "agency" provisions in the law in most states, I think. Where's Cat when you need him???

In the US, that falls under the "agency" provisions in the law in most states, I think. Where's Cat when you need him???
Contemplating the right punishment... :D

Contemplating the right punishment... :D
LOL! Perhaps so. :D

ever heard of property rights?

the owners can rent or refuse to rent their buildings to whomever they want.Not quite true. The owner(s) have the right to either rent the property, or to NOT rent the property. Once the have established that the property is available to be rented, they retain the right to decline to rent it to someone for a legally valid reason. They do NOT have a right to refuse to rent it to someone for a legally invalid reason.

A previous committment, for instance, is a legal valid reason to refuse. If the building manager told Petty Office Lawver that someone else already had the hall on the day/time that he wanted it, that is a legally valid reason.

Racism is an example of a legally INVALID reason. Refusing to rent a property that is "on the market" as a rental to someone because of the persons ethnicity is illegal.

Not quite true. The owner(s) have the right to either rent the property, or to NOT rent the property. Once the have established that the property is available to be rented, they retain the right to decline to rent it to someone for a legally valid reason. They do NOT have a right to refuse to rent it to someone for a legally invalid reason.

A previous committment, for instance, is a legal valid reason to refuse. If the building manager told Petty Office Lawver that someone else already had the hall on the day/time that he wanted it, that is a legally valid reason.

Racism is an example of a legally INVALID reason. Refusing to rent a property that is "on the market" as a rental to someone because of the persons ethnicity is illegal.

What he said. They could refuse to rent it to him if he had bad credit. But not solely because of his race. It's a civil rights violation.

The owner(s) have the right to either rent the property, or to NOT rent the property. Once the have established that the property is available to be rented, they retain the right to decline to rent it to someone for a legally valid reason. They do NOT have a right to refuse to rent it to someone for a legally invalid reason.again, no idea about american common law, but in european civil law we have a thing called freedom of contract, meaning it is entirely up to you who you rent to. the only exception would be a monopolist like when E.ON is the only supplier of electricity in the area, the company cannot refuse to hook you up.

again, no idea about american common law, but in european civil law we have a thing called freedom of contract, meaning it is entirely up to you who you rent to. the only exception would be a monopolist like when E.ON is the only supplier of electricity in the area, the company cannot refuse to hook you up.

So in Europe, you can refuse to rent to someone because they're gay, or black, or have children?

again, no idea about american common law, but in european civil law we have a thing called freedom of contract, meaning it is entirely up to you who you rent to. the only exception would be a monopolist like when E.ON is the only supplier of electricity in the area, the company cannot refuse to hook you up.

1. Are you sure you have no laws against discrimination in public accomodations, businesses, etc? I bet you do. It isn't a matter of common law here. It is a matter of statutes that work in the manner VAR explained.

2. We (and you) also have freedom of speech which we are using to condemn the dumbfuck for not renting to Petty Office Lawver. One can also protest and boycott. (The actual beating of the offender isn't legal, of course, but talking about it in the way done here is.)

So in Europe, you can refuse to rent to someone because they're gay, or black, or have children?or because you dont like the customers clothes or because he smells or because his name beginns with a G. you do not even have to state the reason why you refuse.

or because you dont like the customers clothes or because he smells or because his name beginns with a G. you do not even have to state the reason why you refuse.

There is a difference between having a bad reason or no reason and having an illegal reason.

I'm pretty sure all of the European countries have anti-discrimination laws that prohibit discrimination on the grounds of things like gender, family situation, and membership of an ethnic group, religion, or race.

I'm pretty sure all of the European countries have anti-discrimination laws that prohibit discrimination on the grounds of things like gender, family situation, and membership of an ethnic group, religion, or race.no. in my country they came up with a bill for such an "anti discrimination law" last year, but it was rejected in the 2nd chamber of parliament because it would have violated the principle of private autonomy (which covers freedom of contract).
also: the majority of the population is against such a law.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidiskriminierungsgesetz




"the trouble with our liberal friends is not, that they are ignorant, but that they know so much, that isnt so" - Ronald Reagan

no. in my country they came up with a bill for such an "anti discrimination law" last year, but it was rejected in the 2nd chamber of parliament because it would have violated the principle of private autonomy (which covers freedom of contract).
also: the majority of the population is against such a law.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidiskriminierungsgesetz

According to my translation of your link, the EU has such a policy.

And you do have such laws, the ADG was a proposed extension of existing law.

The ADG appears to back before the Bundestag and supported by the majority.


"the trouble with our liberal friends is not, that they are ignorant, but that they know so much, that isnt so" - Ronald Reagan

I may not be an expert in German law, but I do know the US law. If you think I am wrong about that you are sadly mistaken.

I've been careful not to presume too much about the laws of the Europe. but your own link says the EU has guidelines for exactly the type of laws I thought were common.

It appears you are the one that knows things that aren't so.

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.stop-discrimination.info/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAntidiskriminierungsgesetz%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en

Not quite true. The owner(s) have the right to either rent the property, or to NOT rent the property. Once the have established that the property is available to be rented, they retain the right to decline to rent it to someone for a legally valid reason. They do NOT have a right to refuse to rent it to someone for a legally invalid reason.

A previous committment, for instance, is a legal valid reason to refuse. If the building manager told Petty Office Lawver that someone else already had the hall on the day/time that he wanted it, that is a legally valid reason.

Racism is an example of a legally INVALID reason. Refusing to rent a property that is "on the market" as a rental to someone because of the persons ethnicity is illegal.
Uh ... since when did something being "illegal" ever stop people from doing it? As with employment law: you can fire anyone, anytime, for any reason ... as long as you're willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

Uh ... since when did something being "illegal" ever stop people from doing it? As with employment law: you can fire anyone, anytime, for any reason ... as long as you're willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

The difference is between what you can do and what you have a legal right to do.

(I know you understand that.)

According to my translation of your link, the EU has such a policy.

And you do have such laws, the ADG was a proposed extension of existing law.

The ADG appears to back before the Bundestag and supported by the majority.it is a EU 'guideline' for making national laws, but that doesnt mean countries abandon their sovereignty in law making to brussel beaurocrats.
and we do not have 'such laws'.
the bundestag, that backed this pos legislation was dissolved early, because the government noticed it had lost its support in the population and a new bundestag has been elected since then. also the wiki article clearly says: "Laut einer im März 2005 veröffentlichten Allensbachumfrage lehnt die Mehrheit der Bevölkerung das Antidiskriminierungsgesetz ab." [According to an Allensbach-survey published in march 2005, the majority of the population rejects the antidiscriminationlaw.]

it is a EU 'guideline' for making national laws, but that doesnt mean countries abandon their sovereignty in law making to brussel beaurocrats.

I am no expert on EU law, but the "Race Equality Directive” and similar policies adopted by the EU contradict your broad statements about Europe in general. (Similar is Protocol No. 12 to the European Convention on Human Rights.) It is my understanding that Germany is rather rouge in not implementing this Directives. link (http://europa.eu.int/comm/employment_social/news/2005/apr/courtruling_en.html)

What you said about European civil law is true, at most, of Germany.

and we do not have 'such laws'.

Your article says that many parts of the ADG are simply declarative because such provisions already exist in the BGB.

the bundestag, that backed this pos legislation was dissolved early, because the government noticed it had lost its support in the population and a new bundestag has been elected since then. also the wiki article clearly says: "Laut einer im März 2005 veröffentlichten Allensbachumfrage lehnt die Mehrheit der Bevölkerung das Antidiskriminierungsgesetz ab." [According to an Allensbach-survey published in march 2005, the majority of the population rejects the antidiscriminationlaw.]


And your article specifically says:

"Am 21. Dezember 2005 hat die Fraktion Bündnis90/Die Grünen im deutschen Bundestag den Gesetzentwurf erneut ins Parlament eingebracht. Am 20. Januar 2006 hat der Bundestag das Gesetz in erster Lesung gelesen. Dabei unterstützten die Redner von SPD, Grüne und Linksfraktion, die gemeinsam eine Mehrheit im Bundestag haben, den Gesetzentwurf, während Union und FDP das Gesetz und die Richtlinien selbst erneut ablehnten."

My Google translation says this means:

"On December 2005 the parliamentary group Buendis90/Die the Green brought the bill again in the German Bundestag into the parliment. On 20 January 2006 the Bundestag read the law in first reading. Supported the speakers of SPD, the Greens, and (link), who have together a majority in the Bundestag, the bill, when union and FDP rejected the law and guidelines again."

Are you sure you aren't letting your opinion of what the law should be color your reporting here of what the law is/will be?

Regardless, you are wrong about the law of other nations.

I blame democracy.

It is my understanding that Germany is rather rouge in not implementing this Directives.just hope, they dont attack us as rogue state.And your article specifically says:

"Am 21. Dezember 2005 hat die Fraktion Bündnis90/Die Grünen im deutschen Bundestag den Gesetzentwurf erneut ins Parlament eingebracht. Am 20. Januar 2006 hat der Bundestag das Gesetz in erster Lesung gelesen. Dabei unterstützten die Redner von SPD, Grüne und Linksfraktion, die gemeinsam eine Mehrheit im Bundestag haben, den Gesetzentwurf, während Union und FDP das Gesetz und die Richtlinien selbst erneut ablehnten."

My Google translation says this means:

"On December 2005 the parliamentary group Buendis90/Die the Green brought the bill again in the German Bundestag into the parliment. On 20 January 2006 the Bundestag read the law in first reading. Supported the speakers of SPD, the Greens, and (link), who have together a majority in the Bundestag, the bill, when union and FDP rejected the law and guidelines again."

Are you sure you aren't letting your opinion of what the law should be color your reporting here of what the law is/will be?it merely says, that a party, that was part of the former government coalition, the 'greens', have reproposed the bill, but they are just in the stage of discussing it in the first chamber, no vote taken yet.you are wrong about the law of other nations.we dont care! all other nations have bad laws and should look to GERMANY for proper guidance. especially, when it comes to minorities. and if the other nations dont follow us volluntarily, we will make them!
;-)