NationStates Jolt Archive

The idea for this came from the Sheehan thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=466169&page=5) just then.

You never bothered to even try to understand, did you.

"Argggn, she's a heretic, burrrrrrn her!!!"
whats there to understand. Our country not worth dying for? Then get the fuck out! You dont like it leave. There's the border, renounce your citizenship, and leave. We dont have room for freeloaders like that!

What is a country?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?

I wouldn’t die for anyone or anything. I’m far too important to myself to let something like that happen.

By the way, what the fuck is Argggn?

Shouldn't have mentioned the 'S' word :(
*shakes head*
*awaits barrage of regurgitated Sheehan tripe*

I would die for my faith, but that's just me. I am not sure I would die for my country, that's why I didn't "join up" like so many of my family and friends did, in the end I am selfish, and scared. :( I do know quite a few people who would die for my country, and I am thankful every single day that they are willing to do that, even if I am not.

If you love your country then yes, I think it is.

Granted people do not choose the country they grow up in, and there are many 3rd world countries that treat their citizens like dirt I still believe that there are many countries that deserve the loyalty of the citizens.

There are 2 countries that hold my loyalty and I would die for either of them.

There are 2 countries that hold my loyalty and I would die for either of them.
lol

You don't die for a country as much as you die for whatever you feel that country represents. If your country is just some abstract area on a map that you happen to live in, then no, you're not going to want to die for it. It's only if you feel that your country is connected to something more important that you would take that risk.

What is a country?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?

A country is a set of people under one government, or branches or governments leading to a main ruler, whose people are influenced by their government to at least some extent. (My definition)

People would die for your country if you felt particularly attached to it, perhaps it had opened new opportunities to you, had helped you excape persecution etc. etc. You would want everyone to do the same to help best increase the chances of your nation's future growth and prosperity.

Help at all?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?


I wouldn't die for one. And I would wholeheartedly dissuade others from same.

By the way, what the fuck is Argggn?
A sort of expletive...I was trying to illustrate that the "patriotic" right is incapable of making sensible arguments when they respond to things they consider to be heresy. :p

There are 2 countries that hold my loyalty and I would die for either of them.
But why?
Your country doesn't like you. In fact "your country" is an arbitrary line on a map, filled with many different enthnic groups. Since 1945, the idea of romantic nationalism and "national destinies" has also been abandoned - nations are not people, they are abstract concepts.

Why end your life for that? Or does it represent something different to you?

And here's an idea...if you got a letter from the President, asking you to kill yourself - would you do it?

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -George S. Patton.

:)

I don't know. It really very much depends on the time, place, reason, context etc. I might die for an idea I strongly believed in..but I couldn't say unless faced with a situation.

The idea for this came from the Sheehan thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=466169&page=5) just then.




What is a country?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?


This question can be simply answered if you realized that your parents, and your grandparents, and the parents before them, and so on, were willing to die to ensure that this country and its opportunities and freedoms existed into the future for you to enjoy and raise a family in.

The real question then becomes, are you not willing to die to keep this legacy going, and allow your children, and grandchildren, and their children to inherit the same glorious promise that you had?

The fact is, it isn't about us... if we, in our self-absorbed state can imagine such a thing. It is about our legacy.

Pretty clear now, isn't it?

I think most people who "die for their country" die for their comrades at arms, their friends, their family and home.

Or for a lie, like racial/religious/nationalist supremacy.

But for "country?" Eh.

No, I would not. Not for any nation, no matter how grand.

I would never give my life for my country. I would, if the threat was great, give my life so that the people in my country could live (i.e. military).

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -George S. Patton.

:)

Curse you in using Patton like that! ;)

This question can be simply answered if you realized that your parents, and your grandparents, and the parents before them, and so on, were willing to die to ensure that this country and its opportunities and freedoms existed into the future for you to enjoy and raise a family in.

The real question then becomes, are you not willing to die to keep this legacy going, and allow your children, and grandchildren, and their children to inherit the same glorious promise that you had?

The fact is, it isn't about us... if we, in our self-absorbed state can imagine such a thing. It is about our legacy.

Pretty clear now, isn't it?

A legacy isn't worth dying for. Hell, I would rather my family legacy get totally destroyed than have my children or grandchildren die so that it may continue (as long as it isn't something like them turning evil). Their lives are more important to me than any "legacy".

No, I would not. Not for any nation, no matter how grand.

Would you die to protect your own home and family from invasion?

No, but a country can be worth killing for. If in that process there is a risk that you may get killed, I would take that risk in the interests of the country.

Pretty clear now, isn't it?
To be honest, my great-grand uncle died for an Emperor, and my grandfather got half his leg blown off for an idea that, it is safe to say, was disgusting.

The point is that you are for some reason assuming that a country, a people, is one entity. You actually think there is some sort of common interest, a common goal, a common destiny.

That's apparently pretty normal in the US, but I don't believe it at all.

A country is not the land, cities, rivers, farms, etc., it's the people who populate the land, cities, farms, etc. As such it has to be worth dying for. If you won't risk your life in defense of the people around you, don't be surprised when no one risks him or herself to protect you.

Curse you in using Patton like that! ;)

Well, someone in this thread was going to whip that quote out. Still, anyone that is willing to die for their country is stupid. IMO, the best way to express nationalistic pride is to live as long as possible for one's country. Dying for one's country is quick and easy. Any idiot can do it. Making the determination to live for the service of one's country is much more difficult.

Would you die to protect your own home and family from invasion?
Yes, but that is not a nation.

This question can be simply answered if you realized that your parents, and your grandparents, and the parents before them, and so on, were willing to die to ensure that this country and its opportunities and freedoms existed into the future for you to enjoy and raise a family in.

The real question then becomes, are you not willing to die to keep this legacy going, and allow your children, and grandchildren, and their children to inherit the same glorious promise that you had?

The fact is, it isn't about us... if we, in our self-absorbed state can imagine such a thing. It is about our legacy.

Pretty clear now, isn't it?


A legacy isn't worth dying for. Hell, I would rather my family legacy get totally destroyed than have my children or grandchildren die so that it may continue (as long as it isn't something like them turning evil). Their lives are more important to me than any "legacy".

Tell that to the corpses of the children lying in a mass grave in Yugoslavia, Cambodia, Somalia, or Iraq. I bet the parents of those children would have endured untold tortures and certain death for them, their children to have the legacy that was given to us by our parents...

This question can be simply answered if you realized that your parents, and your grandparents, and the parents before them, and so on, were willing to die to ensure that this country and its opportunities and freedoms existed into the future for you to enjoy and raise a family in.

The real question then becomes, are you not willing to die to keep this legacy going, and allow your children, and grandchildren, and their children to inherit the same glorious promise that you had?

The fact is, it isn't about us... if we, in our self-absorbed state can imagine such a thing. It is about our legacy.

Pretty clear now, isn't it?

If they had been willing to die, and then died, I wouldn't be here would I? Plus, how can you guarantee that what you are dying for is really for your country? Personally, I would never die for my country. Also, unless we are attacked here, I wouldn't be defending my own country, but someone elses, and that does not make sense to die for either.

Well, being an anarcho-communist.... NO! :p

#

1. A nation or state.
2. The territory of a nation or state; land.
3. The people of a nation or state; populace: The whole country will profit from the new economic reforms.

# The land of a person's birth or citizenship: Foreign travel is restricted in his country.
# A region, territory, or large tract of land distinguishable by features of topography, biology, or culture: hill country; Bible country.
# An area or expanse outside cities and towns; a rural area: a vacation in the country.

==

Directly, that is a country. However, the ideal of a country is different to us. There are people being foreign, being an alien, but in the end, as long as you call it your home, you are not foreign. Remember, when North Americans first came, they were considered foreign, but soon enough they had called it their home; their country.

A country has a different definition in each of us, depending on how we perceive it. Sure, many of use might not like the policies, the stupid laws or the inept politicians, nor do we even try to grace ourselves by ignoring them, but in the end, we have citizenship here, we have a roof here and four walls (hopefully) to which we can call as part of the country.

So when somebody says 'I don't like this country.' they could be telling the truth, but it's still their country. Some people have different ideals on the terms of dying. Many would not die for people that seem to represent them, but fail, while others would certainly bless their homeland with their blood. Others would move on, spurred to help the lands of their forefathers, or some might help the land that gave them opportunity.

The soldiers in Iraq, sure some of them are pro-war, some of them against it now. The ones against it do not want to die on foreign soil so far away from their home, where they call their land. Same thing in history, the Japanese Canadians wanted to defend with their lives the country of Canada during World War II, the country that gave them opportunity. To die or live by the country, to flee or stand by the gun is all determined by the love and respect you have for the nation you draw breath in. As long as you love it, cherish it, respect it, then you have every right to defend. Most people don't die for their country, however. They die for the people. They die for their families, friends, and loved ones.

Yes, I know it sounds nationalistic, but that's how it works out.

Religion = yes
Community = yes
Family/Close Friends = yes
Country = No

I'm not going to try and explain it here. Most people have set minds and what is said in the forums is not likely to change them.

I know that Jill Carroll should die for hers.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
-JFK

Yes, but that is not a nation.

So you would not give your life to protect your fellow countrymen from enemy invaders?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?
Yes, and I would die so that others didn't have to. And I would expect others to only if the chose to.

Tell that to the corpses of the children lying in a mass grave in Yugoslavia, Cambodia, Somalia, or Iraq. I bet the parents of those children would have endured untold tortures and certain death for them, their children to have the legacy that was given to us by our parents...

Here's a question: is dying for your country the same as dying for the survival of your country? I thought it was more dying for the interests of your country.

It's quite an important distinction. Many people here would die to keep their children from being put into mass graves, but would they die to get their children a stable supply of oil? Where is the cutoff point? And if there is a cause involved (such as one's children), is it actually dying for your country?

Anyway, those children did die for their country. Nine times out of ten that's what dying for your country entails.

Religion = yes
Community = yes
Family/Close Friends = yes
Country = No

I'm not going to try and explain it here. Most people have set minds and what is said in the forums is not likely to change them.

Well, put. I wont die for a bunch of buildings and trees and land, but I will die for the people, religion, family, friends, in the country.
After all, a country is not a country without people in it!

If they had been willing to die, and then died, I wouldn't be here would I? Plus, how can you guarantee that what you are dying for is really for your country? Personally, I would never die for my country. Also, unless we are attacked here, I wouldn't be defending my own country, but someone elses, and that does not make sense to die for either.

Is basic timeline mechanics so difficult to grasp that one cannot imagine having a child, and THEN dying for your country?

But I digress..

The fact is, our ancestors, who were obviously not as important as we are, as we are clearly the final product in our evolutionary trek across time, were willing to give anything to protect our future. I can see here tonight that few of us have the conviction to protect our childrens future. After all, why should we protect their future, when we are clearly the most important generation that has ever lived, or ever will live? (for those of you who can't tell, this is sarcasm)

I would gladly give my life so others may live in freedom. So, yes, I would die for America.

*snip*

Is a country worth dying for?

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Hell no.

Curse you in using Patton like that! ;)

You're just upset because I beat you to it. :)

This question can be simply answered if you realized that your parents, and your grandparents, and the parents before them, and so on, were willing to die to ensure that this country and its opportunities and freedoms existed into the future for you to enjoy and raise a family in.

The real question then becomes, are you not willing to die to keep this legacy going, and allow your children, and grandchildren, and their children to inherit the same glorious promise that you had?

The fact is, it isn't about us... if we, in our self-absorbed state can imagine such a thing. It is about our legacy.

Pretty clear now, isn't it?

1) Do you really know that your ancestors were all ready to die for their country, do you really know your great grandparents well?
2)Legacies are overated; ie slavery was a legacy.
3) If you came from a long line of martrs, then I came from a long line of celibates
4) What about immigrants or first generation americans? I assume at this point the "legacy" is simply maintained by having the same nationality as unrelated individuals who have the legacy.

There are things worth dying for. Nations sometimes represent these things. When they do it is worth dying for a nation. When the policy of that nation shifts away from these things you stand for, that nation is no longer worth dying for.

In example, if you believed in "liberty" and "freedom" as causes that made your nation great, and the current goverment sacrificed these virtues for security, your allegiance to said country is void, regardless of any "legacy" of government obediance.

So you would not give your life to protect your fellow countrymen from enemy invaders?
I'm going to be very blunt, no.

If a person dies for their family that is different. I would die to protect my family, but why die to protect a "country". You just end up as a statistic.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
-JFK
Fuck that statist scumbag. Sure glad that guy got his head blown off.

Well, put. I wont die for a bunch of buildings and trees and land, but I will die for the people, religion, family, friends, in the country.
After all, a country is not a country without people in it!

I agree except for the religion bit.

I mean, here are some other folks who died for their religion.

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/9-11/wtc-2-plane.jpg

I can understand dying for people. Family, friends. Even, for a priest. But for a religion? For a book and some notions about the afterlife?

Fuck that satist scumbag. Sure glad that guy got his head blown off.

Bleh. The wrong Kennedys died; Teddy's still up and drinking.

I can understand dying for people. Family, friends. Even, for a priest. But for a religion? For a book and some notions about the afterlife?
Would you die for Dr. Seuss? I'm sure there is a religion around his person and ideas.

I can understand dying for people. Family, friends. Even, for a priest. But for a religion? For a book and some notions about the afterlife?
Don’t act so high and mighty. You write with the same self-righteousness of a religious nut-job. Of course you can believe that people would die for their religion, unless you think all the recent Islamic Martyrs were lying?

Well, some of you are making it very easy for yourselves by just sorta assuming that you are being attacked, or even that you fight for other people's freedom.

How do you know that? For all you know, you could be trying to prepare Holocaust II by going to war.

Ultimately, wars aren't started for countries, but for political ideas (and usually, ideas that require war are bad ones).

Would you change your decision if you were in WWI for example?

Bleh. The wrong Kennedys died; Teddy's still up and drinking.
They should all be dead if you ask me.

Don’t act so high and mighty. You write with the same self-righteousness of a religious nut-job. Of course you can believe that people would die for their religion, unless you think all the recent Islamic Martyrs were lying?
...I love you.

If a person dies for their family that is different. I would die to protect my family, but why die to protect a "country". You just end up as a statistic.

"One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic."
Joseph Stalin

Would you change your decision if you were in WWI for example?
That depends heavily on which country you’re from. The war was pretty pointless for America, so no. However, the Belgians, they were invaded out of nowhere. I’m sure many of them died for their country (meaning property, family and friends).

Would you die for Dr. Seuss? I'm sure there is a religion around his person and ideas.

'There's a Wocket in My Pocket'. A Dr. Seuss book I saw last night. Bow to the Almighty Dr.Seuss...

To defend your legacy. Let's protect the "Homeland"...Sounds like what the Nazi's said.They said let's protect the Fatherland! They were willing to die for their country, and for what? A psychotic leader, and they lost anyway.

"One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic."
Joseph Stalin
touche

Don’t act so high and mighty. You write with the same self-righteousness of a religious nut-job.

Yeah, I was just about to tell you to go to Hell for not believing as I do.

Of course you can believe that people would die for their religion, unless you think all the recent Islamic Martyrs were lying?

Yes, I believe that people would die for their religion. You're 100% correct on that one. I guess that's why I posted a picture of people who were dying for their religion, saying "here are people who died for their religion!"

Yes, I believe that people would die for their religion. You're 100% correct on that one. I guess that's why I posted a picture of people who were dying for their religion, saying "here are people who died for their religion!"
Come now, I did not mean you literally could not believe it, I just found your pho-indignation annoying.

That depends heavily on which country you’re from. The war was pretty pointless for America, so no. However, the Belgians, they were invaded out of nowhere. I’m sure many of them died for their country (meaning property, family and friends).
Well, even that is not clear-cut. Really, they were fighting for their king's refusal to let the Germans pass through. The German government even offered to pay for any damages done by the marching armies.
But the king decided that Belgium was a kingdom, not a road (presumably to preserve his own standing with other European heads of state), and that's why the Belgians had to fight.

You're just upset because I beat you to it. :)
dammit he's my idol!!
:) :):):)

Fuck that statist scumbag. Sure glad that guy got his head blown off.

Trahnite vos zhopa!!! The man fought for his country, at least give him that.

The point is that you are for some reason assuming that a country, a people, is one entity. You actually think there is some sort of common interest, a common goal, a common destiny.

That's apparently pretty normal in the US, but I don't believe it at all.

That is because you are now in a country which does not have any conceivable external existential threat.

So you can afford the luxury of talking "meh..what country..what threat..".

Btw, are you now a German citizen or an Aus citizen?

Well, even that is not clear-cut. Really, they were fighting for their king's refusal to let the Germans pass through. The German government even offered to pay for any damages done by the marching armies.
But the king decided that Belgium was a kingdom, not a road (presumably to preserve his own standing with other European heads of state), and that's why the Belgians had to fight.
Well, fuuuck. I did not know that.

The King of Belgium during WWI is now on my list of people everyone should hate but doesn't.

I agree except for the religion bit.

I mean, here are some other folks who died for their religion.

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/9-11/wtc-2-plane.jpg

I can understand dying for people. Family, friends. Even, for a priest. But for a religion? For a book and some notions about the afterlife?
well not to that extreme.
Not too many Catholics out there flying planes into buildings though!

Trahnite vos zhopa!!! The man fought for his country, at least give him that.
That doesn’t score any points with me, Eut can assure you of that.

It's funny because your from Texas.

Come now, I did not mean you literally could not believe it, I just found your pho-indignation annoying.

That's "faux" indignation. And there's nothing faux about it, I'm indignant. And as I said I understand people who die for other people, but not for a book. Or any other abstract idea. Those fall under the "lies" category, see my first post in this thread.

well not to that extreme.
Not too many Catholics out there flying planes into buildings though!
They may not be flying planes into buildings, but the IRA?
And are you saying 'terrorism' is only a Muslim issue?

I would gladly die for America, its the best place in the world and to not defend it wouldnt make sense. We need to keep our superpower status at any costs. America influences the way I think, talk, eat, and live. Everyones culture in a way makes who they are.

Yeah, I was just about to tell you to go to Hell for not believing as I do.



Yes, I believe that people would die for their religion. You're 100% correct on that one. I guess that's why I posted a picture of people who were dying for their religion, saying "here are people who died for their religion!"

I have no problem with people dying for their religion. I do have a problem when they make other people die for their religion.

That is because you are now in a country which does not have any conceivable external existential threat.
Well, just a decade and a bit ago, that was different, and I know from my father that he isn't the type to die for his country at all (even though he did serve the compulsory time in the military).

Btw, are you now a German citizen or an Aus citizen?
For the time being, German only. Still working on getting through a little legal provision that will allow me dual citizenship (now there's an idea that should confuse a few patriots :p ) so that I have to pay less for uni.

It's funny because your from Texas.
We’re not all redneck neocons, you know.
And there's nothing faux about it, I'm indignant. And as I said I understand people who die for other people, but not for a book. Or any other abstract idea. Those fall under the "lies" category, see my first post in this thread.
Just because something doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean that others don’t think it is very real and/or important.
Thing is, you already knew that. You just decided to be act like some sort of pseudo-poetic bastard.

I would gladly die for America, its the best place in the world and to not defend it wouldnt make sense. We need to keep our superpower status at any costs. America influences the way I think, talk, eat, and live. Everyones culture in a way makes who they are.
Jeez, culture does NOT equal the nation-state.

And how do you know the US is the best place in the world? Travelled much?

We’re not all redneck neocons, you know.

Refresh my memory again, where was JFK shot? :p

I would gladly die for America, its the best place in the world and to not defend it wouldnt make sense. We need to keep our superpower status at any costs. America influences the way I think, talk, eat, and live. Everyones culture in a way makes who they are.
Funniest and most scarily accurate caricature puppet ever.

I would gladly die for America, its the best place in the world and to not defend it wouldnt make sense. We need to keep our superpower status at any costs. America influences the way I think, talk, eat, and live. Everyones culture in a way makes who they are.

Would you die for other things that make you who you are? For example, would you die to keep your old elementary school from being demolosihed?

Refresh my memory again, where was JFK shot? :p
Ahh, now I get ya.

I can assure you that I was barley involved. I just pushed Lee Harvey Oswald out the door.

I would gladly die for America, its the best place in the world and to not defend it wouldnt make sense. We need to keep our superpower status at any costs. America influences the way I think, talk, eat, and live. Everyones culture in a way makes who they are.
Drunk Commies...is that you again? You naughty boy.

Would you die for other things that make you who you are? For example, would you die to keep your old elementary school from being demolosihed?

no, its different. Im not even sure how to answer because they dont seem to compare remotely

1) Do you really know that your ancestors were all ready to die for their country, do you really know your great grandparents well?
2)Legacies are overated; ie slavery was a legacy.
3) If you came from a long line of martrs, then I came from a long line of celibates
4) What about immigrants or first generation americans? I assume at this point the "legacy" is simply maintained by having the same nationality as unrelated individuals who have the legacy.

There are things worth dying for. Nations sometimes represent these things. When they do it is worth dying for a nation. When the policy of that nation shifts away from these things you stand for, that nation is no longer worth dying for.

In example, if you believed in "liberty" and "freedom" as causes that made your nation great, and the current goverment sacrificed these virtues for security, your allegiance to said country is void, regardless of any "legacy" of government obediance.



This is not American Idol, or some Johnny Come Lately popularity contest... We are talking about the United States of America, in the bosom of which millions of families have lived, and indeed prospered. Sure, if you take off the U.S.A label, and just call it some country, perhaps I would not be willing to die for it, but we are not talking about some country. We are talking about Our country. And this is our country. And yes, perhaps in the last six years a person who is in charge may have views that are different from yours. Does that mean you abandon her, and walk away, giving her to the four winds? I say hell no. Now I respect the opinion of those in here who are firmly committed to never dying for your country. Fortunately for them, there are brave men and women who can stand in their place and take the fall for them so that they can stand proudly and say that they would never die for their country. Go to any military base in these United States, and you can find a brave man or woman who would shame you by looking into your eyes and say, without pause, "I will die for you, if needs be, and I will have no regrets, for what I did, I did for my country, and my children (and your children, because you would not), and for the Legacy that was built for us long before we were twinkles in our daddies eyes"

This country is worth dying for, and I thank God every day that there are at least a few good men and women left who still think so.

This is not American Idol, or some Johnny Come Lately popularity contest... We are talking about the United States of America, in the bosom of which millions of families have lived, and indeed prospered. Sure, if you take off the U.S.A label, and just call it some country, perhaps I would not be willing to die for it, but we are not talking about some country. We are talking about Our country. And this is our country. And yes, perhaps in the last six years a person who is in charge may have views that are different from yours. Does that mean you abandon her, and walk away, giving her to the four winds? I say hell no. Now I respect the opinion of those in here who are firmly committed to never dying for your country. Fortunately for them, there are brave men and women who can stand in their place and take the fall for them so that they can stand proudly and say that they would never die for their country. Go to any military base in these United States, and you can find a brave man or woman who would shame you by looking into your eyes and say, without pause, "I will die for you, if needs be, and I will have no regrets, for what I did, I did for my country, and my children (and your children, because you would not), and for the Legacy that was built for us long before we were twinkles in our daddies eyes"

This country is worth dying for, and I thank God every day that there are at least a few good men and women left who still think so.
amen, very well put

Just because something doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean that others don’t think it is very real and/or important.

So? I never at all said *they* didn't believe it.

I simply said I don't understand their way of thinking. I guess that's maybe why you don't see me flying planes into a building eh?


Thing is, you already knew that. You just decided to be act like some sort of pseudo-poetic bastard.

Pseudo-poetic? What are you on? I'm about as poetic as flying shit from a monkey's ass. Oops I made a metaphor, now I'm fucking Edgar Allen Poe.

Sure, if you take off the U.S.A label, and just call it some country, perhaps I would not be willing to die for it, but we are not talking about some country.
How in the nine hell's name is the US not just some country?

I have no problem with people dying for their religion. I do have a problem when they make other people die for their religion.
Hear hear.


By far the most sensible comment I've heard on the issue in a long, long time.

How in the nine hell's name is the US not just some country?
Because the USA is the greatest country on earth and the sun shines out of its arse.
*gets all teary and salutes the flag*

This is not American Idol, or some Johnny Come Lately popularity contest... We are talking about the United States of America, in the bosom of which millions of families have lived, and indeed prospered. Sure, if you take off the U.S.A label, and just call it some country, perhaps I would not be willing to die for it, but we are not talking about some country. We are talking about Our country. And this is our country. And yes, perhaps in the last six years a person who is in charge may have views that are different from yours. Does that mean you abandon her, and walk away, giving her to the four winds? I say hell no. Now I respect the opinion of those in here who are firmly committed to never dying for your country. Fortunately for them, there are brave men and women who can stand in their place and take the fall for them so that they can stand proudly and say that they would never die for their country. Go to any military base in these United States, and you can find a brave man or woman who would shame you by looking into your eyes and say, without pause, "I will die for you, if needs be, and I will have no regrets, for what I did, I did for my country, and my children (and your children, because you would not), and for the Legacy that was built for us long before we were twinkles in our daddies eyes"

This country is worth dying for, and I thank God every day that there are at least a few good men and women left who still think so.

But again: who says we're talking about protecting the survival of the country? Who says said children and twinkles, etc., are threatened by whatever one is dying for? Sure, one might die to protect future generations of one's own, but die to kill future generations? Either might be in your country's interest.

... now I'm fucking Edgar Allen Poe.

Ugh...mouldy.

Had to be done

Drunk Commies...is that you again? You naughty boy.Drunk Commies? :confused:

Because the USA is the greatest country on earth and the sun shines out of its arse.
*gets all teary and salutes the flag*
That sunshine ain't free. Someone has to defend it.

Ugh...mouldy.

Had to be done
Why am I reminded of Hierate Mich by Rammstein...

It works on so many levels too... Poe used to write about dead lovers. Not um... literally) and the song is about one...

I need more sleep. :p

Ugh...mouldy.

Had to be done

Hey, as long as I'm not hurting anyone....

How in the nine hell's name is the US not just some country?


Because it is My country. I completely understand if you feel the same way about your own country (and indeed hope you do)

Drunk Commies? :confused:
Drunke Commies Deleated, formerally known as Jesussaves.

Because it is My country. I completely understand if you feel the same way about your own country (and indeed hope you do)
But that doesn't make it objectively true.

What is a country?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?
If the Country is America, it's more of an idea than anything else. It also happens to be where all of my family and a considerable number of my friends live. It's where I was raised and where I have lived most of my life. Would I die for the idea and my family and friends? Of course I would, and almost did several times.

Answer your question?

That sunshine ain't free. Someone has to defend it.
*Grabs placard and waves it aloft*
No blood for sunshine!

Anyway, the only thing I am willing to die for is myself.

*Grabs placard and waves it aloft*
No blood for sunshine!

Anyway, the only thing I am willing to die for is myself.
What about a genie?

But again: who says we're talking about protecting the survival of the country? Who says said children and twinkles, etc., are threatened by whatever one is dying for? Sure, one might die to protect future generations of one's own, but die to kill future generations? Either might be in your country's interest.

Well, you can't have it both ways. Sometimes, our country may go in a direction that you might not have chosen on your own. That does not mean you abandon her, especially in her time of need. That is like leaving your child in the middle of the road to be hit by a car simply because she refused to come when you called. Regardless of whether your child is doing what you would have him/her do, you still gotta run out and try and rescue him/her.

For those of us who are US citizens, this is our country, and once she's gone, she's gone forever. And in the years and centuries to come, people will parade through our cities and marvel at the ruins of our archetecture, and try to daydream about what a country she was, in years long past. But not today! She is still here, and she needs us, whether she is doing what we would have her do or not...

do not die for your country nothign is gained by dying for your country, what you do is kill the other sorry bastard so he can die for his country

She is still here, and she needs us, whether she is doing what we would have her do or not...
Not "she", "it"!

America =/= Person.

This is a really good topic we have to go into some day...American Exceptionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism).

Well, you can't have it both ways. Sometimes, our country may go in a direction that you might not have chosen on your own. That does not mean you abandon her, especially in her time of need. That is like leaving your child in the middle of the road to be hit by a car simply because she refused to come when you called. Regardless of whether your child is doing what you would have him/her do, you still gotta run out and try and rescue him/her.

For those of us who are US citizens, this is our country, and once she's gone, she's gone forever. And in the years and centuries to come, people will parade through our cities and marvel at the ruins of our archetecture, and try to daydream about what a country she was, in years long past. But not today! She is still here, and she needs us, whether she is doing what we would have her do or not...

You're missing the point. You're not leaving the country to let it die, you're refusing to aid it in doing something that may or may not be essential. You wouldn't just let your child run into the middle of the street, but neither would you take the child there if they asked you to. You see my point? Dying for your country isn't necessarily dying in a time of need, it could be dying in a time of plenty.

That is like leaving your child in the middle of the road to be hit by a car simply because she refused to come when you called.
No, it would be like running away from an abusive father after you've finally had enough.

Not "she", "it"!

America =/= Person.

This is a really good topic we have to go into some day...American Exceptionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism).

I think we are dueling in two different threads, about pretty much the same thing, but I digress...


Are you not proud of your country? Do you feel that your country is nothing more than one among many, and that you should pay no special respect to her/it? Does your land mean nothing more to you than a piece of dirt? I think not.

So how does us thinking the same way turn us into eliteists?

I would prefer my country, and all countries for that matter, to die for the individual.

I think we are dueling in two different threads, about pretty much the same thing, but I digress...


Are you not proud of your country? Do you feel that your country is nothing more than one among many, and that you should pay no special respect to her/it? Does your land mean nothing more to you than a piece of dirt? I think not.

So how does us thinking the same way turn us into eliteists?

Actually, most people feel like that about their countries. The national identity is an amusing, sometimes benevolent construct, but it's hardly important.

Are you not proud of your country? Do you feel that your country is nothing more than one among many, and that you should pay no special respect to her/it? Does your land mean nothing more to you than a piece of dirt? I think not.
I'm German, I think that should answer your question.

I would prefer my country, and all countries for that matter, to die for the individual.
Good one. *waves the black flag*

No, it would be like running away from an abusive father after you've finally had enough.

What sort of abuse have you suffered under the umbrella of the United States? How many car bombs have gone off in your neighborhood? How many beheadings have happend in your town? How often do they dig up a mass grave of women, children, and elderly in your state?

None.

I contest that your analogy is broken.

It is better to die standing, than to live on your knees.

Would I be willing to die for a country (and the majority of its population) that denies me the most basic of human rights, the right to marry the person I love and who also regularly uses me as a scape goat for everything that is wrong in society? Nope. Not a chance. If I'm not allowed to have a stake in our society, why should I be willing to defend it?

I'm German, I think that should answer your question.

Indeed, so neither of us are elite, we are simply proud. We love our countries. Sometimes we get angry with the decisions that our leaders make, but we still love our homes, and would gladly bear arms and do what needed to be done to defend it and our families, I would assume. Are we so different?

It is better to die standing, than to live on your knees.
If you weren’t a caricature I would go apeshit. That’s a revolutionary quote, not a warmongering one!

If you weren’t a caricature I would go apeshit. That’s a revolutionary quote, not a warmongering one!
Refresh my memory, who said that? I remember Malcolm X said something similar, as did Subcommandante Marcos, IIRC.

What sort of abuse have you suffered under the umbrella of the United States? How many car bombs have gone off in your neighborhood? How many beheadings have happend in your town? How often do they dig up a mass grave of women, children, and elderly in your state?

None.

I contest that your analogy is broken.
All governments are abusive because they keep down personal freedoms.
A father who only smacks his kid around every now and then is still abusive.

I'll be proud to be an American, and willing to die for it, the day we fix our own problems before evangelizing to the rest of the world.

And, quite frankly, I don't accept that "love it or leave it" nonesense. If people just accepted things as they were, and never wanted to better themselves, we would still have slaves, women would still be viewed as property and they'd have no political voice whatsoever, and we would still be a theocracy.

(Actually, I'm of the opinion that we're essentially a theocracy, now, but that's beside the point.)

If I don't like what my country's doing, or the direction it's going, then I'm going to help change it.

Well, fuuuck. I did not know that.

The King of Belgium during WWI is now on my list of people everyone should hate but doesn't.

It's a little bit more complicated than he makes it sound.

Edit: And I wouldn't die for a country. I might consider killing someone as a member of its armed forces, or blowing shit up, but all that dulce et decorum est pro patria mori just harshes my mellow.

Refresh my memory, who said that? I remember Malcolm X said something similar, as did Subcommandante Marcos, IIRC.
Emiliano Zapata, a Mexican revolutionary. He was active in the early 1900's.

Refresh my memory, who said that? I remember Malcolm X said something similar, as did Subcommandante Marcos, IIRC.
I believe Che Guevara said that, or he may be quoting someone else

What sort of abuse have you suffered under the umbrella of the United States? How many car bombs have gone off in your neighborhood? How many beheadings have happend in your town? How often do they dig up a mass grave of women, children, and elderly in your state?

None.

I contest that your analogy is broken.

And if your country asks you to die so it can build a mass grave, would you do it?

Emiliano Zapata, a Mexican revolutionary. He was active in the early 1900's.
Thus explaining why Marcos quoted it. Thanks. :)

I wouldn't die for my country.

I would fight and die for other things - freedom, loved ones, and so on....but not for the flag of my country.

If you weren’t a caricature I would go apeshit. That’s a revolutionary quote, not a warmongering one!

And how do you so conviniently devide what we do today on the warmongering side and not on the revolutionary side? Why can't it at least be a blur? And anyway, how can you abandon support of our country so fast simply because it is not going your way?

I don't think you could ever titrate a war down to its integral parts and say that it is one way or the other. It is simply not that easy.

All nations are worth dying for.

The question should be, is it worth killing for?

Would I be willing to die for a country (and the majority of its population) that denies me the most basic of human rights, the right to marry the person I love and who also regularly uses me as a scape goat for everything that is wrong in society? Nope. Not a chance. If I'm not allowed to have a stake in our society, why should I be willing to defend it?
What about the great number of us who support your desire to marry whomever you care about? What about those of us who never use you as a "scapegoat?"

[QUOTE=Schnausages] Go to any military base in these United States, and you can find a brave man or woman who would shame you by looking into your eyes and say, without pause, "I will die for you, if needs be, and I will have no regrets, for what I did, I did for my country, and my children (and your children, because you would not), and for the Legacy that was built for us long before we were twinkles in our daddies eyes"QUOTE]

Are you finnished? Well allow me to retort. I Do believe that people should be willing to die for their ideals; cowards think they are going to live forever if they hang back when the call comes. When the ideals align with the nation, then the nation should be held in high regard, when they don't the nation is an empty shell. I am not saying that America is at that point yet, but it is slipping in that direction, recent polls of Americans show they favour security over liberty, and once they get their way this country will no longer be as great. Don't you tell me what would shame me. My grandfathers were soldiers/guerillas, my cousin, aunt, uncle and father served. I myself received my honorable discharge as of 2003. When 9 11 happened I asked my NCOIC to send me (that was not the way things turned out, but that is no fault of mine). I grew up in three countries so I can speak of nations in a non biased fashion. I believe in the legacy of the ideals of america, not the border, not the nationalism. As did the founders of OUR country, one side believed in the ideals of liberty, equality, representation and such and the other in serving their country, The British Empire and were called the LOYALISTS. This country was hard won, and it will be hard preserved and your nationalism won't help anyone.

I wouldn't die for my country.

I would fight and die for other things - freedom, loved ones, and so on....but not for the flag of my country.
Who the hell said anything about a flag? Hell, I wouldn't die for a flag either!

Indeed, so neither of us are elite, we are simply proud. We love our countries. Sometimes we get angry with the decisions that our leaders make, but we still love our homes, and would gladly bear arms and do what needed to be done to defend it and our families, I would assume. Are we so different?
I don't think you got it. Here, have a look (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII).

[QUOTE=Schnausages] Go to any military base in these United States, and you can find a brave man or woman who would shame you by looking into your eyes and say, without pause, "I will die for you, if needs be, and I will have no regrets, for what I did, I did for my country, and my children (and your children, because you would not), and for the Legacy that was built for us long before we were twinkles in our daddies eyes"QUOTE]

Are you finnished? Well allow me to retort. I Do believe that people should be willing to die for their ideals; cowards think they are going to live forever if they hang back when the call comes. When they align with the nation, then the nation should be held in high regard, when they don't the nation is an empty shell. I am not saying that America is at that point yet, but it is slipping in that direction, recent polls of Americans show they favour security over liberty, and once they get their way this country will no longer be as great. Don't you tell me what would shame me. My grandfathers were soldiers/guerillas, my cousin, aunt, uncle and father served. I myself received my honorable discharge as of 2003. When 9 11 happened I asked my NCOIC to send me (that was not the way things turned out, but that is no fault of mine). I grew up in three countries so I can speak of nations in a non biased fashion. I believe in the legacy of the ideals of america, not the border, not the nationalism. As did the founders of OUR country, one side believed in the ideals of liberty, equality, representation and such and the other in serving their country, The British Empire and were called the LOYALISTS. This country was hard one, and it will be hard preserved and your nationalism won't help anyone.

If you believe what you are saying, then you will agree that this change from freedom to security has only been a few years in the making, and it has existed, perhaps not as an organized country, but as an idea, for well over three hundred. I think that the few years this country has swayed can still be referred to as a red herring, and it is not time yet to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I am loyal to my country because it is the only one I have. Perhaps you have two others you can easily trade your loyalty for, but I can not. I am proud of what we have done, and I will not give it up for some polls on CBS, or what talking heads on CNN say.

The fact of the matter is, if everyone in this country today said to themselves "My children are going to grow up here, and I am going to make this country as great as I can make it," this problem would instantly go away. I am not saying we should all agree on the direction our country is going... indeed, I don't completely agree on some recent decisions, but don't give up on her because she's unpopular right now (all the kids quit wearing Guess, and started wearing Tommy Hillfiger - that sort of popular/unpopular)

I will quote my grandpa now, because this quote makes so much sense. He told me - "Son, you never know who you're friends are when you're up and have a full wallet. If you want to know who your friends are, wait till you're down. That's when you'll meet your true friends." Same can be said for patriots, I guess

I don't think you got it. Here, have a look (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII).

Ignoring your sensationalistic low blow, I would like you to answer the question: are you not proud of your country?

Would I die for my country?
If I felt the cause was right and knew I would be saving others.

What about the great number of us who support your desire to marry whomever you care about? What about those of us who never use you as a "scapegoat?"

Well, if you ever decide to take up arms to fight our government for that right, I'll be right there with you. If you decide to take up arms and fight for better treatment for the disabled and poor, I'll be right there with you. Or if you decide to take up arms and fight for a more egalitarian society, I'll be right there with you. But how likely is any of that that?

As it is, if I have no stake in society, I have no reason to die for my country.

For my family? Yes.

For an ideal? Maybe.

For a country that would rather I not exist? No.

Who the hell said anything about a flag? Hell, I wouldn't die for a flag either!

You know what I mean. I wouldn't die for my country as an institution under any circumstance. I may die to protect the freedoms and safety of its people, but I would also fight against it if I believed it was the best way to do that.

Frankly I'm more interested in *living* for my country. This increases my chances of doing something useful for it, such as helping to vote out our current Fearless Leaders, for example.

You know what I mean. I wouldn't die for my country as an institution under any circumstance. I may die to protect the freedoms and safety of its people, but I would also fight against it if I believed it was the best way to do that.
Will you have my babies?

All nations are worth dying for.

The question should be, is it worth killing for?
I, for one, could more easily kill another than die myself.
Your cliché is pointless to me.

Will you have my babies?

I dunno....sounds painful. :p

My country (America - meaning the people of America) is worth dying for. This is of course my opinion - I have no more facts to support it than a believer in God has to back up his or her faith - it simply is. I have reasons which seem good to me - the freedoms we still have among them.

Of course, living in this country beats dying for it all to hell, but sometimes there is no choice.

You don't win wars by dying for your country, you win them by making others die for theirs.

I, for one, could more easily kill another than die myself.
Your cliché is pointless to me.

You aren't very Christlike, now are you? :p

You aren't very Christlike, now are you? :pDude, religion and I have parted ways, at least for the time being. The only thing I really got out of it is the fact that I know and understand more theology than the average zealot. Debating them is fun.

Dude, religion and I have parted ways, at least for the time being. The only thing I really got out of it is the fact that I know and understand more theology than the average zealot. Debating them is fun.

I find debating with zealots and fundies irksome, personally. No matter what you throw out there, they scream, "PERSECUTION!" at you as loudly as they can, while stating that God never intended the Bible to be read (or at least not that way). It gets kinda boring after a while....

Ignoring your sensationalistic low blow, I would like you to answer the question: are you not proud of your country?
NO!

One can be proud of something one has done. I haven't created my country, nor do I consider it great enough to be proud of it. I might enjoy living somewhere, but that's as far as it goes.
Beyond that, it becomes an unhealthy fetish.

NO!

One can be proud of something one has done. I haven't created my country, nor do I consider it great enough to be proud of it. I might enjoy living somewhere, but that's as far as it goes.
Beyond that, it becomes an unhealthy fetish.

There we differ. A country is either a family or, in the case of immigration based nations such as Australia, America, or Canada an ideology as well as a family. As such finding the good in it to be proud of seems a good idea to me. My own feeling is that a nation not worth dying for is worth not living in either.

Mind you, the meaning of the phrase "die for" is worth exploring here as well. Are we talking taking a risk that didn't come off or further than that? o_O

There we differ. A country is either a family or, in the case of immigration based nations such as Australia, America, or Canada an ideology as well as a family. As such finding the good in it to be proud of seems a good idea to me. My own feeling is that a nation not worth dying for is worth living in either.

If such were true of all people's feelings, there would be a great deal more nation-less people around and about than there are today.

New Rafnaland,
I wouldn't be surprised. And eventually they'd have to form nomad bands for which some of them would have to fight and die in order to make their nomad band viable. History does seem to be built on ironies like that at times. :)

New Rafnaland,
I wouldn't be surprised. And eventually they'd have to form nomad bands for which some of them would have to fight and die in order to make their nomad band viable. History does seem to be built on ironies like that at times. :)

Anyone care for a New Mongol Empire? :p

Damn it your not reading me right.

Regarding:
"If you believe what you are saying, then you will agree that this change from freedom to security has only been a few years in the making, and it has existed, perhaps not as an organized country, but as an idea, for well over three hundred. I think that the few years this country has swayed can still be referred to as a red herring, and it is not time yet to throw the baby out with the bathwater. "

True, I agree. I'm not saying we should abandon it either. I simply saying that if you think America is whatever the GOP says it is, then you don't know what America is.

Regarding:
" I am proud of what we have done, and I will not give it up for some polls on CBS, or what talking heads on CNN say."

Agreed, but I'm simply saying nations must follow values and not the other way around; America will not always be around, but can values can so long as people still are.

Regarding:
"I will quote my grandpa now, because this quote makes so much sense. He told me - "Son, you never know who you're friends are when you're up and have a full wallet. If you want to know who your friends are, wait till you're down. That's when you'll meet your true friends." Same can be said for patriots, I guess"

Are you attacking me?
Am I right to assume that the quote "My country, right or wrong, always my country" sums up your position?

Suggesting I have spare countries was incorrect, I grew up in those locals, and oddly enough always seemed to be considered an outsider, whether it was those countries or not. Anyhow, I've exhausted my point.

I find the whole notion of dying for ones nation to be a rather primitive remainder of our primal instincts concerning tribal loyalty akin to wolves and chimpanses.

Also if one supports the notion that one should defend his/her nation purely for the reason that you are a citizen of it will in turn passively aprouve the reasoning of your rivaling nation. Because are they not defending their nation aswell?

The rules change somewhat with the advent of -isms and other ideologys, however I truelly do wonder what good it has done for us this last century. Comminism, Facism, National-Socialism etc. Not even to mention religion. (though in a sense the -isms were a surrogate for religion).

Die for democracy? What if the majority decides something against my will? Don't democracies defend the rights of the minority aswell?

In the end I believe the reason for dying for anything at all is the fact you wish to die for a better tomorrow. For your friends, children, loved ones and humanity in general. I can find myself in such a line of reasoning as long as one doesn't uphold half-baked arguments to support his reasoning.

Dying for a nation just because you were born in it is one of them.

Why not start viewing ourselves just as humans instead of belonging to some tribe that happens to live beyond an imaginary border of another tribe?

And here's an idea...if you got a letter from the President, asking you to kill yourself - would you do it?

No...He'd have to use the radio transmitter lodged in my brain by the CIA. I don't trust paper correspondance.

I hate our current government, but that doesn't mean I dislike the danish beliefs and idealogy... All we need is a fresh start, with a more competent leader, who knows what is right for all... One like... Shall we say...

...Me?:rolleyes:

The idea for this came from the Sheehan thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=466169&page=5) just then.




What is a country?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?would I die for my country?

No.

I would make our enemies die for theirs. :D
(reparaphrasing Quote from 'Patton')

I would risk my life to save lives. If I died in the attempt, I'd like to think I had died trying to do what I thought was right. I would also risk my life in the defense of liberty. Liberty is an ideal the American Flag and the Constitution of the United States represents. But make no mistake that my patriotism only extends to the defense of the shared ideal, not to the political ebbs and flows that comprise the US. Government.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -George S. Patton.

:)I've always liked Pratchett's version of that quote.

"'It is always useful to face an enemy who is prepared to die for his country,' he read. 'This means that both you and he have exactly the same aim in mind.'"

romantic nationalism and "national destinies" has also been abandoned - nations are not people, they are abstract concepts.

Why end your life for that?

Why shouldn't I want to die for an abstract concept? :)

Why shouldn't I want to die for an abstract concept? :)
Love is an abstract concept.

If your love fell into raging waters, and the only chance to save them was for you to risk death in helping them swim out, would you jump in?

Or would you call out, "I can't help you - all we have is an abstract concept!"

Love is an abstract concept.

If your love fell into raging waters, and the only chance to save them was for you to risk death in helping them swim out, would you jump in?

Or would you call out, "I can't help you - all we have is an abstract concept!"

I wouldn't give my life for my country, but for my love? anytime...

Absolutely. However, it is important to note that you aren't fighting for the "country", which is nothing more than an arbitrary border, but for the ideals and values that your country values and represents. You're also fighting for the safety and future security of your family and their descendants.

To enjoy the freedoms of a country but not be willing, if necessary, to take up arms for it during a war that threatens those values is in my opinion incredibly selfish and reprehensible.

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?
The nail on the head. By and large jingoists are far more interested in getting pissy when somebody is disinterested in dying for their country (in the case of a few Americans, even if said naysayer lives in France) than they are in defending it to the last drop of their own blood.

Absolutely. However, it is important to note that you aren't fighting for the "country", which is nothing more than an arbitrary border, but for the ideals and values that your country values and represents. You're also fighting for the safety and future security of your family and their descendants.

To enjoy the freedoms of a country but not be willing, if necessary, to take up arms for it during a war that threatens those values is in my opinion incredibly selfish and reprehensible.

In my life so far, i've lived in two different countries, both have things that i like about them, but there are many things in both that i disagree with (both very different countries too) and i plan to live in other countries in the future... In other words, I still have to find the country that's right for me. The reason I'm here is because my family is here and because I'm studying here, or else i think i would have already moved away last summer...

Easy to say; it's much more difficult to actually know if one would die for their country. That said, I truly hope that I could die for America; I was born an American, and I'll die one, and hopefully I'll never have to die for America, but I hope that I would if I had to.

Why shouldn't I want to die for an abstract concept? :)

The cause of most wars has some form of aspect of abstract concepts, whether it be fear, happiness, patriotism etc.

I myself would not simply die for my country as I have no real emotional attachment to that particular abstract concept, but I might die for another abstract concept, such as love, mentioned by Deep Kimchi.

What is a country?

Why would you die for it, and more importantly, why would you want everyone else to do the same?
A country is comprised of the people within it. If the consequences are dire enough it is worth dying to help them, because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

The point is that you are for some reason assuming that a country, a people, is one entity. You actually think there is some sort of common interest, a common goal, a common destiny.
Do you take the rationalist view that we are all free-floating individuals and that there are no, or should be no bonds that connect us other than money?

Do you take the rationalist view that we are all free-floating individuals and that there are no, or should be no bonds that connect us other than money?
Not strictly - I do think in terms of society though, ideally humanity as a whole.
Countries are more based on division than commonality.