NationStates Jolt Archive

Is Hugo Chaves really a bad guy? I can't seem to find anything that puts him in the company of Saddam or Kim Jong Il. The other day I was speaking to a venezuelan girl and asked her " Is Hugo Chaves a bad guy?" Her response was that he was, I asked what he did, and she responded "Hes bringing in doctors and teachers, trying to influence people toward socialism, and hes giving discounts on his oil to the US in order to gain favour" and so on. It seemed like a very poor argument, as socialism is really (in a broad sense) just non-american liberalism. So here I've gathered what are the pros and cons I could muster off the top of my head. I'm trying to form a value judgement about him, so any imput would be nice.

Pro 1) He offered us free food, oil and personel after Katrina (Bush administration refused). 2) Gave us a large discount on oil after the prices sky rocketed. 3) Was popularly elected 4) When "dethroned" after what Hugo alleges was a CIA sponsered (but he does tend to say EVERYTHING is CIA sponsored) coup was popularly reinstated. 5) Has an open government style, and converses with his populace on unscreened calls every weekday on his show "Allo Presidente" 5) calls USA people his "North American brothers" 6) Is named Hugo which is humorous sounding.

Con 1) Alleged election fraud (negligible amount, would not effect result, can not be traced to him, and on a smaller scale than the USA's 2004 alleged voter fraud). 2) Thinks everything bad that happens to him is the CIA 3) Has foreign relations with Fidel Castro 4) Is cited for Human Rights Violations by amnesty international (don't actually know what these are supposed to be) 5) Has a court case against him regarding #4, as of yet no verdict 6) Bush administration doesn't like him

Hugo...hehe...Lol...Hugo

What do you make of Hugo Chaves?

Chaves cakes with demi-crap sauce.

"What do you make of Hugo Chaves?"

Um ... fertilizer?

A large hatrack?

A permanent addition to the Boston Big Dig?

Like most Communists, he's a closet autocrat. Plus, he's paranoid and borderline schizophrenic. That said, he also has an overinflated veiw of his own importance, much like the new Bolivian president. I personally don't care for him at all, but I'm not in a very large hurry to do anything about him. He'll just keep yipping like a hungry chihuahua. Big deal.

Meh ... seems amiable enough. He's no Che, but who is?

7) Was the subject of a highly entertaining documentary (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363510/) concerning the coup.

After seeing this I like the man - of course my view is based entirely on a TV program so I would also be interested in contradicting opinions.

Meh ... seems amiable enough. He's no Che, but who is?
Che.

Che.

Touche :D :D

Is Hugo Chaves really a bad guy? I can't seem to find anything that puts him in the company of Saddam or Kim Jong Il. The other day I was speaking to a venezuelan girl and asked her " Is Hugo Chaves a bad guy?" Her response was that he was, I asked what he did, and she responded "Hes bringing in doctors and teachers, trying to influence people toward socialism, and hes giving discounts on his oil to the US in order to gain favour" and so on. It seemed like a very poor argument, as socialism is really (in a broad sense) just non-american liberalism. So here I've gathered what are the pros and cons I could muster off the top of my head. I'm trying to form a value judgement about him, so any imput would be nice.

Pro 1) He offered us free food, oil and personel after Katrina (Bush administration refused). 2) Gave us a large discount on oil after the prices sky rocketed. 3) Was popularly elected 4) When "dethroned" after what Hugo alleges was a CIA sponsered (but he does tend to say EVERYTHING is CIA sponsored) coup was popularly reinstated. 5) Has an open government style, and converses with his populace on unscreened calls every weekday on his show "Allo Presidente" 5) calls USA people his "North American brothers" 6) Is named Hugo which is humorous sounding.

Con 1) Alleged election fraud (negligible amount, would not effect result, can not be traced to him, and on a smaller scale than the USA's 2004 alleged voter fraud). 2) Thinks everything bad that happens to him is the CIA 3) Has foreign relations with Fidel Castro 4) Is cited for Human Rights Violations by amnesty international (don't actually know what these are supposed to be) 5) Has a court case against him regarding #4, as of yet no verdict 6) Bush administration doesn't like him

He's just a politician. No more, no less.

7) Was the subject of a highly entertaining documentary (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363510/) concerning the coup.

After seeing this I like the man - of course my view is based entirely on a TV program so I would also be interested in contradicting opinions.

Yeah, saw that a while ago. Two Irish film-makers- made a big hubbub about them when the got home.

A good documentary- rarely do you get to see inside a coup.

A good documentary- rarely do you get to see inside a coup.

Not often does politics have you on the edge of your seat at 3am...pity really :rolleyes:

Like most Communists, he's a closet autocrat.

Since when is Chávez a Communist?

Since when is Chávez a Communist?

Since he stopped allowing American corporations to rape his country of it's natural resources with little or no compensation to the locals.

Oops! Was that out loud? :p

Comic Relief :p

Since he stopped allowing American corporations to rape his country of it's natural resources with little or no compensation to the locals. Oops! Was that out loud? :p

Yeah, and now it's going to be the state-owned ones that rape the locals while preaching populism. Yay for oil...

Yeah, and now it's going to be the state-owned ones that rape the locals while preaching populism. Yay for oil...

Well, exactly. A select few still get rich, but at least it's a select few Peruvians. :D

Meh ... seems amiable enough. He's no Che, but who is?
I hope your not trying imply that you actually admire Che Guevara, in light of the fact that most of your writings lead me to believe you consider yourself "man of peace"

Well, exactly. A select few still get rich, but at least it's a select few Peruvians. :D

Were they the ones who elected the Japanese guy as president?

Were they the ones who elected the Japanese guy as president?

:confused:

Were they the ones who elected the Japanese guy as president?

For some reason the name Alberto Fujimori rings a bell.

Since when is Chávez a Communist?

Since he calls his government a revolution not a government, not administration, but a revolution, once in power its supposed to stay in power.

Since he calls his government a revolution not a government, not administration, but a revolution, once in power its supposed to stay in power.


So, automatically then:

Revolution = Left
Coup = Right

And we won't know until the end of his second democratically elected term now will we.

I like his name, I like that he does what he wants. He is however an idiot and an annoyance to my country, he should die and go away.

Hugo Chavez himself staged a coup in 1992 and was imprisoned for it.
I think Hugo is desperate for attention. The USA is ignoring him, so he keeps making crackpot statements in the hopes that someone, ANYONE, in Washington will care.

I like his name, I like that he does what he wants. He is however an idiot and an annoyance to my country
How's Chavez an annoyance to your country? Is it because he's a socialist?

BTW, Chavez did offer aid to the Katrina disaster:
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a vocal critic of the United States, offered to send cheap fuel, humanitarian aid and relief workers to the disaster area.src: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/05/katrina.world.aid/index.html
he should die and go away.
OK Pat Robertson. :rolleyes:

How's Chavez an annoyance to your country? Is it because he's a socialist?

BTW, Chavez did offer aid to the Katrina disaster:
src: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/05/katrina.world.aid/index.html

OK Pat Robertson. :rolleyes:
He is annoying because hes a commi. Hes also annoying because all he does his team up with castro to spit anti-american rubbish. Im not Pat Robertson a) im a atheist b) Im not saying he should be killed, Im saying I hope he dies.

He is annoying because hes a commi. Hes also annoying because all he does his team up with castro to spit anti-american rubbish. Im not Pat Robertson a) im a atheist b) Im not saying he should be killed, Im saying I hope he dies.ok...

Not really sure about the guy. He can be a bit of a clown at times but I appreciate that a lot of his policies have improved the lives of ordinary Venezuelans. He's introduced land reforms, literacy programs, improvements in healthcare, ect and it certainly explains the guy's popularity. Though I'm not quite sure of his motives. The measures he takes towards political opponents and his creation of a partisan militia could possibly point towards seeking a dictatorship.

Since he stopped allowing American corporations to rape his country of it's natural resources with little or no compensation to the locals.

Oops! Was that out loud? :pYes it was...



And we're adding it to your file...

I4) Is cited for Human Rights Violations by amnesty international (don't actually know what these are supposed to be) 5) Has a court case against him regarding #4, as of yet no verdict

Which country are not cited for human rights violations by amnesty? Sweden have been, and probably is that every year. I doubt that USA is not.

Since he calls his government a revolution not a government, not administration, but a revolution, once in power its supposed to stay in power.

That does not prove anything. Calling his programs revolutionary does not make him a Communist, nor does it make him an autocrat.

Which country are not cited for human rights violations by amnesty? Sweden have been, and probably is that every year. I doubt that USA is not.

Amnesty International is a very harsh critic of the United States. Some of the same people denouncing Chávez attack it for the harshness of such criticism, in fact.

Some random clippings from
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/elections/venezuela/

"Poverty and crime have, in fact, climbed since Chavez took office, although the government blames protracted opposition strikes for draining the economy and fanning discontent. His detractors, for their part, say Chavez is bypassing fiscal controls with his latest wave of social programs. The cheap markets and Cuban medics represent quick fixes, they say. They don't address institutional problems.

I ran into this in the vast Catia district of western Caracas, where residents drive clunky old cars and where the remains of battered kites hang from criss-crossed telephone wires. A woman there told me she'd taken her son to see a Cuban doctor just down the street, and she was thrilled to have such easy access to a health professional. But two minutes later she showed me the booklet of lottery tickets she was selling to help raise money for medicine for her nephew, a cancer patient. "Visiting a hospital is an unpleasant experience," she said.

Back at the polling booths, the lines were still growing. Voters brought out deck chairs and dominoes and resigned themselves to a wait that would stretch late into the night. Election officials extended polling hours twice, and it wasn't until the early hours of the morning that they announced the results. After a record turnout, an overwhelming 59 percent of voters had opted to keep the president in office until his term expired in 2007; 41 percent had voted to unseat him. Chavez had hit a home run."


Venezuela seems to be a country on edge. This will be something to keep an eye on over the next few years.

Since he calls his government a revolution not a government, not administration, but a revolution, once in power its supposed to stay in power.

Sure, somone who added to the Constitution the recall referendum at every level, including presidency, and who accepted to run the recall referendum despite the massive fraud on the petition (many signers were dead, ...), is supposed to stay in power ?

Don't be so pathetic...

Is Hugo Chaves really a bad guy? I can't seem to find anything that puts him in the company of Saddam or Kim Jong Il. The other day I was speaking to a venezuelan girl and asked her " Is Hugo Chaves a bad guy?" Her response was that he was, I asked what he did, and she responded "Hes bringing in doctors and teachers, trying to influence people toward socialism, and hes giving discounts on his oil to the US in order to gain favour" and so on. It seemed like a very poor argument, as socialism is really (in a broad sense) just non-american liberalism. So here I've gathered what are the pros and cons I could muster off the top of my head. I'm trying to form a value judgement about him, so any imput would be nice.

First, Chavez is a very popular leader. He's loved by his people, who support him with a 60% majority, something very rare. When a coup attempt kicked him out, millions gathered all around the country, facing the army, to have him reinstored.

Then, Chavez is keeping his promises. He was elected to fight poverty, illeterracy, ... and he's doing it. 3 millions of adults who couldn't learn how to read in their childhood are learning right now. Millions are given now healthcare, housing, food. He's training thousands and thousands of doctors, nurses, teachers, ... He's giving back the land to peasants. He's creating cooperatives. For the first time in Venezuela, the profits of oil go to the people, and not to a wealthy few.

Then, Chavez dares to follow his values, whatever the cost for him. He didn't censor the TV even when they call to murder him. He didn't arrest the generals who formented the coup attempt. He openly defies USA, despite the history (Allende, ... who were killed because they dared to) and the murder and coup attempts he already whistood.

And finally, remember all what the anti-Chavez tried to do against him: coup attempt, economical sabotage, call for murder, murder attempt, murder of the judge investigating about the coup attempt, media manipulations[1], ... With all those dirtest methods used against him, you should be very careful when you see attacks against him, and always double-check the facts.

[1] For example, anti-Chavez media all around the world showed Chavez supporters firing from above a bridge, and then a anti-Chavez demonstration going below a bridge, saying pro-Chavez were shoting peaceful protesters and 18 died. In the truth, the bridge was not the same. No demonstration passed that day below the bridge were Chavez supporters were.

What happened that day is that anti-Chavez demonstrated against Chavez towards the oil company HQ, while Chavez supporters gathered around the presidential palace. Until then, all is fine. Then, the opposition called their marchers to go towards the palace, and to kick Chavez out. The governement asked them to not send anti-Chavez towards the pro-Chavez, in order to avoid a clash, and that they could demonstrate everywhere else. The anti-Chavez didn't listen, and went for the clash.

When the two crowds were close to each others, guns were fired, and Chavez supporters died. They quickly realised that snippers were firing on Chavez supporters, to try to make them flee, so the anti-Chavez could storm the palace. But Chavez supporters opened fire back to the snippers. At the end of the day, 18 people died, 14 being Chavez supporters.

Pro 1) He offered us free food, oil and personel after Katrina (Bush administration refused). 2) Gave us a large discount on oil after the prices sky rocketed. 3) Was popularly elected 4) When "dethroned" after what Hugo alleges was a CIA sponsered (but he does tend to say EVERYTHING is CIA sponsored) coup was popularly reinstated. 5) Has an open government style, and converses with his populace on unscreened calls every weekday on his show "Allo Presidente" 5) calls USA people his "North American brothers" 6) Is named Hugo which is humorous sounding.

He also recetly started to extend his healthcare programs to his neighbourgh. In the coming few months, one MILLION of south american people will have their eyesight restored, thanks to the cooperation between Chavez and Cuba.

Con 1) Alleged election fraud (negligible amount, would not effect result, can not be traced to him, and on a smaller scale than the USA's 2004 alleged voter fraud).

The international observers (always welcomed by Chavez), including the Jimmy Carter center, didn't detect any fraud.

2) Thinks everything bad that happens to him is the CIA

The CIA did overthrow Allende, and many others. The CIA did say publically they oppose him. And a few days before the coup attempt in 2002, the opposition leaders were received in the White House... Accusing the CIA of having ties with the coup is not paranoia in this context.

3) Has foreign relations with Fidel Castro

And ? His deal with Castro is "I give you oil (I've plenty of it), you send me doctors and teachers (you've plenty of them)". Cuba is training thousands of Venezuelian to becomre doctors, teachers, nurses, ... Why shouldn't Chavez do it ? Both Venezuelian and Cuban benefit from this deal. Sure, Castro isn't all nice, but every country has relationships with others who aren't all nice. And Castro is far from being the worse of them. (USA receives many of its oil from the Saudhi, who are far worse than Castro).

4) Is cited for Human Rights Violations by amnesty international (don't actually know what these are supposed to be)

Every country is. Venezuela's list of possible violations (Amnesty lists possible violations, not only proven ones, they are not a court) is much smaller than the one of USA, or even the one of many european "democracies".

5) Has a court case against him regarding #4, as of yet no verdict

Unlike Bush, Chavez acknoweldge the authority of the International Court.

6) Bush administration doesn't like him

That's a pro for me ;)

Like most Communists, he's a closet autocrat. Plus, he's paranoid and borderline schizophrenic. That said, he also has an overinflated veiw of his own importance, much like the new Bolivian president. .


American sponsored coup attempts have been known to do that to a person - make them edgy. Nobody wants to get Allende'd. Perhaps America would be better off respecting the democracy its President never seems to stop talking about.

Yeah, saw that a while ago. Two Irish film-makers- made a big hubbub about them when the got home.

A good documentary- rarely do you get to see inside a coup.
Yeah, talk about catching lightning in a bottle. My favorite part, however, was how they showed the role the Venezuelan media played in the coup, and then the eagerness with which the US media (and govenrment) jumped in to support the plotters. Chavez may think the CIA is out to get him, but it's not as though he doesn't have reason--US involvement in Latin America has a shady past to say the least.

I find it difficult to find trustworthy information on Venezuela.

I definitely do not trust the White House information. According to Ari Fleischer on April 12 2002, it was Chavez who provoked the crisis.

Let me share with you the administration's thoughts about what's taking place in Venezuela. It remains a somewhat fluid situation. But yesterday's events in Venezuela resulted in a change in the government and the assumption of a transitional authority until new elections can be held.
The details still are unclear. We know that the action encouraged by the Chavez government provoked this crisis.

I guess the White House didn't receive this report:
http://venezuelafoia.info/ciac3.html

Is Hugo Chaves really a bad guy?

Pro 1) He offered us free food, oil and personel after Katrina (Bush administration refused). 2) Gave us a large discount on oil after the prices sky rocketed. 3) Was popularly elected 4) When "dethroned" after what Hugo alleges was a CIA sponsered (but he does tend to say EVERYTHING is CIA sponsored) coup was popularly reinstated. 5) Has an open government style, and converses with his populace on unscreened calls every weekday on his show "Allo Presidente" 5) calls USA people his "North American brothers" 6) Is named Hugo which is humorous sounding.

Con 1) Alleged election fraud (negligible amount, would not effect result, can not be traced to him, and on a smaller scale than the USA's 2004 alleged voter fraud). 2) Thinks everything bad that happens to him is the CIA 3) Has foreign relations with Fidel Castro 4) Is cited for Human Rights Violations by amnesty international (don't actually know what these are supposed to be) 5) Has a court case against him regarding #4, as of yet no verdict 6) Bush administration doesn't like him

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they really aren't out to get you.

and

Canada has relations with Castro. So does pretty much every other country in the world.

I find it difficult to find trustworthy information on Venezuela.

I definitely do not trust the White House information. According to Ari Fleischer on April 12 2002, it was Chavez who provoked the crisis.



I guess the White House didn't receive this report:
http://venezuelafoia.info/ciac3.html
Well, it's Ari Fleischer you're talking about. If he ever told the truth, his head would explode. At least Scott McClellan has the decency to look like he's lying when he opens his mouth.

I hope your not trying imply that you actually admire Che Guevara, in light of the fact that most of your writings lead me to believe you consider yourself "man of peace"

I admire revolutionaries. Revolution isn't always peaceful.

I am a man of peace in that I would never be the aggressor. I sure as fuck would defend my community though.

Sure, somone who added to the Constitution the recall referendum at every level, including presidency, and who accepted to run the recall referendum despite the massive fraud on the petition (many signers were dead, ...), is supposed to stay in power ?

Don't be so pathetic...

On the recall Referendum election all I can say is Colombian Cesar Gaviria and President Jimmy Carter who declared the election clean, also declared that they were not allowed into the main building were all the ballots were taken, officially counted and official results announced.

Seems to be doing a good job for the venezuelan people, whose interersts he genuinely seems to have at heart.

Good job so far Don Hugo.