NationStates Jolt Archive

Understand I am using the term "American Dream" as merely a term meaning that if you work hard enough and long enough, you can succeed to any level you desire, and not in any way associated with the United States or any of its affiliations, per se.

That disclaimer asside, I am so sick and tired of socialist folks giving away my chance at the dream as fast as they can, and I mean giving it away! For the love of all things, let those who desire to work and toil and bleed for their dreams succeed. Every time a socialist gives away some other piece, my chance at succeeding gets further and further away.



Let's face it, if you work real hard and do all the right things, like go to school and make good grades, work to get promoted in your job, earn a living, scrape up some capital to make an investment, and maybe one day be able to do something entreprenurial, why do we have to give all our profits away to provide steak dinners to those who sit at home with their hands out, waiting for a paycheck from the government.

I say we make the lazy work, too. I got no problem taking care of the old and infirm, but lazy, at least the last time I checked, is not a disease!!!


Bah (I just looked at how much tax they are taking out of my check, and I had to go off on somebody... after all the overtime I worked, too)

It's just wishful thinking if you ask me.

You know, the American Dream has been dead for quite a while. That was an idea of the 19th century, where little farm boys ended up as steel magnates and so on.
Today, unless your parents can buy you a decent education, statistically your chances are pretty small for you to end up rich, regardless of how hard you work.

Afterall, the deciding factor in getting a promotion these days (and that goes for all around the world) is not how hard you work, but for how long you've been there.

While I agree with you on some points, I felt the need to address my own points in relation to yours.

First, it's not that the "socialist folks" are trying to keep you down in the least bit. They sacrifice a large amount of their paychecks as well. Additionally, not even all that much is going to support Welfare, which I'm assuming is what you're complaining about here.

If you go to school and get good grades and work hard and this and that, it doesn't secure a promise of success. Depending on the situation, it doesn't even give you all that great of a chance. Furthermore, just because somebody has to rely on social welfare programs, that doesn't make them lazy. I wouldn't mind if there was a method of reliable enforcement that they're not just sapping government funds, but you can't assume that somebody is below-average out of lack of effort. How quickly you were willing to jump on that point suggests to me that you have no idea how that life is.

On the very outside, though, before you got into the specific points that I disagree with.....I see where you're coming from.

I'll bet that this guy has had everything handed to him on a plate all his life.

Today, unless your parents can buy you a decent education, statistically your chances are pretty small for you to end up rich, regardless of how hard you work.


Or you could just earn scholorships (there are an uncountable amount of them- some which don't even get claimed), take out student loans (which have very low interest), or just work and save up money for college.

I know plenty of people currently attending college that got no monetary help from their parents.

at the risk of getting jumped on, I agree with the OP. I think he oversimplified quite a bit, but in general, yeah.

You don't appease the peasants, you die. It's a lesson painfully learnt and quickly forgotten since the beginning of recorded human history.

Besides, working hard does not guarantee success, nor does it entitle anyone to it. Do not forget that the American Dream is not that everyone will succeed if they work hard enough, it's that everyone can, but most people will not. And many people have a leg maimed before they even start the race. It's the same in "socialist" Europe, frankly.

Apparently, you have the same misunderstanding many people do. The US has never guaranteeed anyone anything other than opportunity. TG is right that you can get rich, but its not a sure thing.

And I'm not sure the American Dream is so much being rich as it is financially secure. There is a difference.

what penetrobe said


so how much (%) did they take out of your check and where do you live that its such a burden to pay for the government you live under?

If the socialists want to pay for the poor, they can provide the money themselves. Leave the people who don’t want to out of it.
Also, if you’re looking for lower taxes, we should drastically reduce the size and scope of our military. That’s where most of the money goes.

You know, the American Dream has been dead for quite a while. That was an idea of the 19th century, where little farm boys ended up as steel magnates and so on.
Today, unless your parents can buy you a decent education, statistically your chances are pretty small for you to end up rich, regardless of how hard you work.

But thats whats unique with America, its not like that. Both of my uncles flunked high school and only went to college on tennis scholarships...while flunking college classes, and both of them are multi millionares right now, one has a Mercedes S 600 in his driveway and the other a Bently GT coup. The point is, while that may be how it is in Japan and Europe, with more of a caste system, thats not what Ameria is like, and since you are not American I wouldnt expect you to understand that.

Afterall, the deciding factor in getting a promotion these days (and that goes for all around the world) is not how hard you work, but for how long you've been there.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, it is in many countries, like India and Japan, and since you seem to think so, probably Europe, but thats NOT how it is in America.

Simonist']While I agree with you on some points, I felt the need to address my own points in relation to yours.

First, it's not that the "socialist folks" are trying to keep you down in the least bit. They sacrifice a large amount of their paychecks as well. Additionally, not even all that much is going to support Welfare, which I'm assuming is what you're complaining about here.

If you go to school and get good grades and work hard and this and that, it doesn't secure a promise of success. Depending on the situation, it doesn't even give you all that great of a chance. Furthermore, just because somebody has to rely on social welfare programs, that doesn't make them lazy. I wouldn't mind if there was a method of reliable enforcement that they're not just sapping government funds, but you can't assume that somebody is below-average out of lack of effort. How quickly you were willing to jump on that point suggests to me that you have no idea how that life is.

On the very outside, though, before you got into the specific points that I disagree with.....I see where you're coming from.


Sure, going to school, getting good grades, and working really hard doesnt give you all that great of a chance, similar to the fundamental difference between buying a lottery ticket and not buying a lottery ticket. But I want my chance, and I am willing to spend my life working to get it. I just hate watching someone else lap up my hard work like a cat at a saucer of cream, and proclaim that they deserved their portion for whatever reason.


As far as the below average/lack of effort idea, I would say that talent makes up some, but certainly not the lion's share of what it takes to be successful. Certainly, you must admit that many, many talented people have been passed up by hungry people with less talent, and more desire. Now I do not know where a person gets desire from, or how to instill it into someone who does not have it. I do, however, feel somewhat certain that if I had to give up one of the two, talent or desire, I would gladly give up talent any day and keep desire.

Also, if you’re looking for lower taxes, we should drastically reduce the size and scope of our military. That’s where most of the money goes.

Actually there is no single department that consumes most of the US fed budget. However, the largest single item (at approx 22%) is social security, then defence (20%), then income security (14%), medicare (12%) and health (10%).

So, there is a case for reducing the amount spent on defence, but by the same token, there is even more case for reducing social security.

The american dream is about fluffy bunnies taking over the world. Gotta watch out for those floppy ears and leafy greens.

I'll bet that this guy has had everything handed to him on a plate all his life.


How could you assume this from my post? If you worked really hard to earn something, and then right after you earned it, and even before you held it in your hand, they took it away and gave it away to somebody else, would you not feel angry?

Connections deffinatly help one move upward, but we have plenty of rag-to-riches stories still hapening.

As lousy a president and worse human being I think Bill Clinton was, he's a great example. He was born to a single mother in a very poor area. He did pretty well for himself.

Steve Jobs started in his parents' arage. Bill Gates first corporate headquarters was a room in a fleabag motel.

All Donald Trump inherited from his father was a mountain of debt.

Abilty and ambition still carry you far here.

I believe that some of the most powerful socialists in our government (Liberals like Ted Kennedy, for example) are people who did, ahem, perhaps a more than a few less than socially or morally acceptable things, and want to attone for their sins by giving away other people's money.

But that is just my opinion...

Connections deffinatly help one move upward, but we have plenty of rag-to-riches stories still hapening.

As lousy a president and worse human being I think Bill Clinton was, he's a great example. He was born to a single mother in a very poor area. He did pretty well for himself.

Steve Jobs started in his parents' arage. Bill Gates first corporate headquarters was a room in a fleabag motel.

All Donald Trump inherited from his father was a mountain of debt.

Abilty and ambition still carry you far here.

Luck carries you far, and that's really all there is. Real ability doesn't even help you in school, much less reality. Bill Clinton grew up in a poor neighborhood and became president. I wonder what happened to everyone else in his neighborhood. Did they just not work hard? Not want it enough?

so what exactly are you whining about?

you dont want to pay taxes? good luck finding a place without them.

the developed world gets great return on their tax money. our "socialists" have given us an unprecidented prosperity that is shared by virtually everyone in our societies. so you have to pay to be part of the richest economic system on earth. grow up. there is plenty left over to live better than 80% of the rest of the world.

I can make all your dreams come true. Just give me $10,000.

I know plenty of people currently attending college that got no monetary help from their parents.
Obviously. I was talking about the statistics about social mobility.

But thats whats unique with America, its not like that.
a) Yes it is.
b) Even if what you said were true, it wouldn't be unique. There is nothing unique about the way the US economy or society works these days.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=449681
Have a look, you two.

The problem is, the American dream has become the food in front of the treadmill. It was there originally to make people have a tangible reward to work towards, but it has become a form of enslavement. Most people will run on the treadmill their whole lives, citing all those who reached the food before them. What they don't realize is that very few of those people reached the food by outrunning the treadmill.

The problem is, the American dream has become the food in front of the treadmill. It was there originally to make people have a tangible reward to work towards, but it has become a form of enslavement. Most people will run on the treadmill their whole lives, citing all those who reached the food before them. What they don't realize is that very few of those people reached the food by outrunning the treadmill.

I do not know if I characterize success as having the wealth of a Roman emperor or not. Perhaps a big house on a ranch with a river running over your property, a couple of high-end cars (and a gas-guzzling pickup) in the garage, a good hunting dog, a collection of expertly chosen firearms to hunt with, and a fine wife, lover, and friend to share it all with is all a person (me) needs. You could also throw in a nice boat and a few fishing poles.... And the ability earn it before you are too old to enjoy it.

This is what I call the American Dream. Not living like Donald Trump. This is obtainable, and doesn't amount to a carrot on a treadmill.

Luck carries you far, and that's really all there is.

Yes, luck plays a part in it. But all luck presents one with is opprstunity.

Greatness comes from ability and ambition.

To try and say its all random and just a gift from the sky is an insult to people who have earned their way up.

Real ability doesn't even help you in school, much less reality.

Bullshit. Some of us earned our grades.

Bill Clinton grew up in a poor neighborhood and became president. I wonder what happened to everyone else in his neighborhood. Did they just not work hard? Not want it enough?

Don't know. Maybe a little of column A and a little of column B. Maybe some of them buy into the bullshit people like you push and give up before they even start.

The heartwrenching part is that people raise their kids with that same attitude. I dated a few teachers and even did some work in the field while in college. It was like a kick in the stomach every time I saw a parent tell their gifted child that they could succeed in the white man's world or because they don't know the right people.

Fuck, why even wake up in the morning? If you really feel that life is so hopeless and you can't possibly win, whats stopping you from ending it?

This is what I call the American Dream. Not living like Donald Trump.
But even you acknowledged in your OP (or be it sorta under your breath) that work alone is hardly enough.

You mentioned something "entrepreneurial" - whatever that may mean to you. I know that I for one need money to start something like that, money that is not easy to get your hands on, because business loans can be quite tricky to get approved, particularly if you're a novice in a risky industry.

But even you acknowledged in your OP (or be it sorta under your breath) that work alone is hardly enough.

You mentioned something "entrepreneurial" - whatever that may mean to you. I know that I for one need money to start something like that, money that is not easy to get your hands on, because business loans can be quite tricky to get approved, particularly if you're a novice in a risky industry.


You mean something you desire and would make your life better is difficult to secure? Oh my God!

I hope thats not the attitude you take into relationships.

But even you acknowledged in your OP (or be it sorta under your breath) that work alone is hardly enough.

You mentioned something "entrepreneurial" - whatever that may mean to you. I know that I for one need money to start something like that, money that is not easy to get your hands on, because business loans can be quite tricky to get approved, particularly if you're a novice in a risky industry.


True, but currently I just bought a second house -- a repo. I am working on it in my spare time after my normal day job and on the weekends. I am going to fix it up either to sell, or rent. If I can get a few of these stood up, and keep moving up at my job, and perhaps make a few other minor investments that I can pay off, and keep moving forward, I can get that sort of capital together to make a helluva stab at something big....unless of course Uncle Sam keeps robbing me blind.

I work all the time. I play this game because it doesn't take up too much of my time. I sprained my ankle the other day, so I have been kinda laid up, and have been on these forums. But soon I will get back to work, and hopefully make something of my self one of these years before I am too old and bent over to enjoy the remains of my life....

You mean something you desire and would make your life better is difficult to secure? Oh my God!
:rolleyes:
What I'm saying is that it is not a matter of being lazy. Sometimes someone just won't make it, regardless of how much he wants it, and how much he works for it.
I bloody well watched it for four years now - life can screw you over, and being poor is not the same as being lazy.

Is that so difficult to conceive?

I've read Automatic Millionaire and, while I'm not trying to sound like a cult member or something, it has some great info. He's big on realestate.

Also, get yourself a Roth IRA if you can. If you are working regularly, put a little in each week.

:rolleyes:
What I'm saying is that it is not a matter of being lazy. Sometimes someone just won't make it, regardless of how much he wants it, and how much he works for it.
I bloody well watched it for four years now - life can screw you over, and being poor is not the same as being lazy.

Is that so difficult to conceive?

Did I say being poor and lazy were the same thing? Did I say luck wasn't part of it?

Yes, shit happens and not everyone who plays can win.

But, how do you win if you quit?

But, how do you win if you quit?
You can't.
That's why welfare programs should be focussing on getting people back on their feet rather than supporting them indefinitely - but it is a central part of the anti-welfare ideology that the people who are poor, who would need welfare, do so because it's their own fault, because they are stupid or lazy.

That's bullshit and always has been, in the US, in Europe and everywhere else.

:rolleyes:
What I'm saying is that it is not a matter of being lazy. Sometimes someone just won't make it, regardless of how much he wants it, and how much he works for it.
I bloody well watched it for four years now - life can screw you over, and being poor is not the same as being lazy.

Is that so difficult to conceive?

Not difficult to conceive, certainly. I think I will fail at least a dozen more times before I do something right... I hope it doesn't take that long, but if it does, so be it. The fact is, while I am breathing, I am working, and while I am working, I have a chance. Like I said earlier, it is the difference between buying a lottery ticket, and not buying one: If you don't at least buy in to it, you cannot possibly win... I never said it would be easy... I never said it would be fun... but nothing worth having ever is.

And now tying back to the original post

This post is about squandering the American Dream. The American Dream (whatever you perceive it to be) is still acheivable. What I am saying is that it would be easier for us who are actually putting in the effort to succeed... those of us who are actually buying a lottery ticket, so to speak, if we weren't having to drag all of those who have no intention of buying a ticket, or workinging towards success. And how dare other people who proclaim to be holier or smarter, or more qualified than me legislate that I should be required to give away seeds of my chance of success to other people, who will not take and use my seeds to grow a crop of their own, but will consume all they can and waste the rest, and wait for a new hand full of seeds next month...

There...

You can't.
That's why welfare programs should be focussing on getting people back on their feet rather than supporting them indefinitely - but it is a central part of the anti-welfare ideology that the people who are poor, who would need welfare, do so because it's their own fault, because they are stupid or lazy.

That's bullshit and always has been, in the US, in Europe and everywhere else.


I've never said get rid of the welfare program. Maybe reform it, but never wipe it away.

What you've been saying is that poor people simply can't succeed and have no hope of doing so.

nd how dare other people who proclaim to be holier or smarter, or more qualified than me legislate that I should be required to give away seeds of my chance of success to other people, who will not take and use my seeds to grow a crop of their own, but will consume all they can and waste the rest, and wait for a new hand full of seeds next month...

Think of it this way: Many of those people are using welfare as a way to improve their chances. Many do use it as a crutch to just coast through life, but many others don't.

If they have this opportunity, they can get a better job, send their kids to better schools, and other things to ensure they can be better contributors to society. This means they can be part of society and benefit all of us.

So, its an investment.

Obviously. I was talking about the statistics about social mobility.


a) Yes it is.
b) Even if what you said were true, it wouldn't be unique. There is nothing unique about the way the US economy or society works these days.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=449681
Have a look, you two.

I just dont understand how you can say that without actually being an American. I would never say there is nothing unique about the way Germany works or the way people work in Germany. Why, because I am not a German and have never lived in Germany.

I just dont understand how you can say that without actually being an American.
I don't have to. I thought you might have realised by now that I consider divisions between humans to be arbitrary only, and particularly attempts to make the US look like something unique are invariably aimed at making it better than everyone else.
If there is one idea in the world right now that has the potential of wiping us all out, it is the "city on the hill (http://www.presidentreagan.info/speeches/index.cfm)". That is an idea that in its destructive force, its sheer revoltingness hasn't been equalled since 1945.

I will never ever buy into this crap, and neither should any thinking person on this planet, whether US-American or not. The US is one country among many, no more, no less. It's political system is not special. It's economic system is not special. It's religion is not special. It's culture is not special.
There is nothing at all that sets it apart from all the countries before it, during it and after it.

I don't have to. I thought you might have realised by now that I consider divisions between humans to be arbitrary only, and particularly attempts to make the US look like something unique are invariably aimed at making it better than everyone else.
If there is one idea in the world right now that has the potential of wiping us all out, it is the "city on the hill (http://www.presidentreagan.info/speeches/index.cfm)". That is an idea that in its destructive force, its sheer revoltingness hasn't been equalled since 1945.

I will never ever buy into this crap, and neither should any thinking person on this planet, whether US-American or not. The US is one country among many, no more, no less. It's political system is not special. It's economic system is not special. It's religion is not special. It's culture is not special.
There is nothing at all that sets it apart from all the countries before it, during it and after it.


Lol... Not only am I from the U.S., but I am a Texan, which makes me even more proud of where I come from (Texas is the only state in the United States allowed to fly it's flag as high as the U.S. Flag, as Texas won it's own independance, and then voluntarily joined the United States later.)

Here is the deal from my point of view: I have never been to Germany, so I do not presume to know your socio-economic system. I do, however know my own reasonably well -- at least well enough to live in it, and hopefully well enough to thrive in it. How it compares to yours is, right now, sort of irrelavant, though not unimportant -- it is just out of the scope of this discussion. I am sure you have some equivelant system in Germany where the poorest of the poor has the same opportunity as the son of the richest man in the country to become the most powerful man in the country.

Now notice I said opportunity, and not chance. Those without a "boost" of having a rich daddy have to work a little, or a lot harder... but they can still get there....

That is the American Dream.

Now notice I said opportunity, and not chance. Those without a "boost" of having a rich daddy have to work a little, or a lot harder... but they can still get there....
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/class/index.html
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_id=4148885
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gsolon/workingpapers/trends.pdf
http://ideas.repec.org/a/fip/fedbrr/y2002iq4p2-5nv.12no.4.html

That is the American Dream.
No, that is the capitalist dream. I guess you could also call it the democratic dream.
But the best word would be the "liberal dream" (and no, not in the American sense), the dream of individualism. Nothing particularly American about it, strictly speaking.

Actually, when you consider the Found Fathers were mostly entrepenuers and that they left England over a tax dispute, ya, it is the American Dream.

It was the first example of people taking the principles of the Age of Enlightenment, putting them on paper and running a country that way.

It was the first example of people taking the principles of the Age of Enlightenment, putting them on paper and running a country that way.
By a few years (and the theorising was going on in Europe for some time before that).
It was an age of revolutions, and because of that, these principles came into being in the US, not because of any divine specialness about America. Indeed, a good number of monarchies were using the same principles some time before the colonists, or the French mob. Frederick II. comes to mind.

The idea of liberalism and enlightenment just coincides with the birth of the US, it is however not linked in any exclusive way.

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/class/index.html
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_id=4148885
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gsolon/workingpapers/trends.pdf
http://ideas.repec.org/a/fip/fedbrr/y2002iq4p2-5nv.12no.4.html


No, that is the capitalist dream. I guess you could also call it the democratic dream.
But the best word would be the "liberal dream" (and no, not in the American sense), the dream of individualism. Nothing particularly American about it, strictly speaking.


Perhaps. But, since I am in a thread that specifically lists the "American Dream" and I am replying to it in kind, I believe that it is not out of place.

Perhaps you have mistaken and posted in the wrong thread -- I certainly would not be caught dead posting in a thread labeled the 'liberal dream', unless I was going there to troll :eek:

If, indeed, you are trying to prove that the American Dream does not exist, I have one very convincing, and very powerful argument for you:


How many Americans have come to your country to rise to the level of Governer, or take on a major political role, or for that matter even risen to a notable level in your country? Any Smith's or Martinez's in your government anywhere? I doubt it, or at least not very many, I would presume.... well it happens here all the time. That is the American Dream. It is alive, and people from all over the world come here to get it, and they are welcome.

That is the American Dream. It is alive, and people from all over the world come here to get it, and they are welcome.
So now it's about immigration (as long as it's approved...wouldn't want too many poor Mexicans now, would we) and not about economics. In which case I would point you towards the immigration figures for the EU, and argue that it's more about living standards than anything else.

But fair enough, Germany is not as much an immigrant nation as is the US (although there are many Turks in various levels of the government). Australia is, but for some reason there are remarkably few non-Anglos in the government right now.

So now it's about immigration (as long as it's approved...wouldn't want too many poor Mexicans now, would we) and not about economics. In which case I would point you towards the immigration figures for the EU, and argue that it's more about living standards than anything else.

But fair enough, Germany is not as much an immigrant nation as is the US (although there are many Turks in various levels of the government). Australia is, but for some reason there are remarkably few non-Anglos in the government right now.

I was just giving an example that we could both agree upon. What I was saying is that if a person from another country can come here and become Governor, then who is to say that any person within our borders could not do the same thing. I can not give more convincing evidence than this, I think.

Actually, when you consider the Found Fathers were mostly entrepenuers and that they left England over a tax dispute, ya, it is the American Dream.

It was the first example of people taking the principles of the Age of Enlightenment, putting them on paper and running a country that way.

Exactly. Our country was built with a plan in mind, and that plan, in some form, still exists today. America was built on an exceptional ideal. From that springs the American Dream

You know, the American Dream has been dead for quite a while. That was an idea of the 19th century, where little farm boys ended up as steel magnates and so on.
Today, unless your parents can buy you a decent education, statistically your chances are pretty small for you to end up rich, regardless of how hard you work.

Afterall, the deciding factor in getting a promotion these days (and that goes for all around the world) is not how hard you work, but for how long you've been there.
Your problem is focusing on getting "promoted." If you want to get rich, work for yourself. Even if you fail at least you'll know that you tried. :p