NationStates Jolt Archive

I saw the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Al-Zahar, during his interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN today. He sounded like an absolute nutcase -- but worse, he also seemed naive and stupid.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/29/hamas.interview/

Taking this into account, what are your predictions for Hamas' leadership of the Palestinians? I think they will become even more impoverished and isolated than ever.

Well, if you vote for a radical fundamentalist organization that advocates the eradication of Israel and the Jews, you get this. It seems like he's suggesting that Israel give up its territory, and they'll give Israel peace until they decide they want more, and then more. He actually seems to be trying to coerce Israel in to appeasement of Hamas.

He'll isolate the nation and make them more poor, and then blame Israel further fueling anti-Israel sentiment and actually keeping them in power.

Hamas.. i'm sure they've got some sort of agendas. doubt the common man will profit.

Clearly not. As usual, it will end in tears.

They only do this because people encourage them though.

No, they do not. They have absolutely no idea what to do with the reins of power, and it will show.

How bad is your government, how corrupt and ineffective you must be to elect a terrorist organization?, that it is a better choice.I wonder what the leaders of the Fatah are thinking right now?

How bad is your government, how corrupt and ineffective you must be to elect a terrorist organization?,

Although I presonally have a very high hatred level for Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organizations, I must play devil's advocate here. A situation in which I have empathised with electing terrorists to political office exists:

Sinn Fein, the political arm of the IRA. Of course, Sinn Fein and the IRA have distanced themselves greatly from their terrorist actions of the past. Especially in the wake of 9/11, when the IRA catagorically pledged to abandon terrorism. I actually support the cause of the IRA, but the situation is very different. But that is a topic for another time.

But you are right in the idea that government and elected leaders must be worthless, and the political system must be futile if you resort to electing terrorists. The palestinians have been fed a steady dose of propoganda. They believe that their "victories" in securing parts of Gaza and the West Bank are not due to compromise and negotiation on behalf of the Israelis. They are told that the terrorists have "bled" the Zionists into submission, and that the terror war is their only recourse- and their only weapon. The money given (mostly by the west) to improve the situation has been mismanaged by a corrupt palestinian leadership, who seeks to keep the people in poverty- creating a breeding ground for hate and suicide bombers. Money goes not to improving housing, or medical care, or education- but to bombmaking, propoganda, and into the wallets of the corrupt Palestinian Authority. This move, although understandable from an outsider's point of view, will increase support for the war hawks in the Israeli government- and will, in fact, make the Israeli elections turn into a land slide for the more militant parties.

How bad is your government, how corrupt and ineffective you must be to elect a terrorist organization?, that it is a better choice.I wonder what the leaders of the Fatah are thinking right now?
I'm sure they're thinking lot of things, top of the list being where they're going to live because it sure as hell isn't going to be in their own country, seeing as how the Fatah rank and file have been violently rioting and blaming them for this (rightly).

Although I presonally have a very high hatred level for Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organizations, I must play devil's advocate here. A situation in which I have empathised with electing terrorists to political office exists:

Sinn Fein, the political arm of the IRA. Of course, Sinn Fein and the IRA have distanced themselves greatly from their terrorist actions of the past. Especially in the wake of 9/11, when the IRA catagorically pledged to abandon terrorism. I actually support the cause of the IRA, but the situation is very different. But that is a topic for another time.

But you are right in the idea that government and elected leaders must be worthless, and the political system must be futile if you resort to electing terrorists. The palestinians have been fed a steady dose of propoganda. They believe that their "victories" in securing parts of Gaza and the West Bank are not due to compromise and negotiation on behalf of the Israelis. They are told that the terrorists have "bled" the Zionists into submission, and that the terror war is their only recourse- and their only weapon. The money given (mostly by the west) to improve the situation has been mismanaged by a corrupt palestinian leadership, who seeks to keep the people in poverty- creating a breeding ground for hate and suicide bombers. Money goes not to improving housing, or medical care, or education- but to bombmaking, propoganda, and into the wallets of the corrupt Palestinian Authority. This move, although understandable from an outsider's point of view, will increase support for the war hawks in the Israeli government- and will, in fact, make the Israeli elections turn into a land slide for the more militant parties.

I'm hoping that Hamas becomes another Sinn Fein, and not another Nazi Party.

Fatah was completely corrupt. But as long as Arafat was around, they were going to win because he was so beloved no one could beat him. Once he was gone, they should've realized that the things they got away with weren't going to be possible without their figurehead still around.

And, frankly, we're partially to blame for propping Fatah up. We should've demanded more reform from them.

I honestly don't know what we can do at this point, if anything, to help fix this problem. I think this may be a situation where we have to work through intermediaries, which just adds another layer of complexity on an already complex situation.

I saw the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Al-Zahar, during his interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN today. He sounded like an absolute nutcase -- but worse, he also seemed naive and stupid.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/29/hamas.interview/

Taking this into account, what are your predictions for Hamas' leadership of the Palestinians? I think they will become even more impoverished and isolated than ever.
Where is the fun in knowing what you are going to do next?

Although I presonally have a very high hatred level for Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organizations, I must play devil's advocate here. A situation in which I have empathised with electing terrorists to political office exists:

Sinn Fein, the political arm of the IRA. Of course, Sinn Fein and the IRA have distanced themselves greatly from their terrorist actions of the past. Especially in the wake of 9/11, when the IRA catagorically pledged to abandon terrorism. I actually support the cause of the IRA, but the situation is very different. But that is a topic for another time.

But you are right in the idea that government and elected leaders must be worthless, and the political system must be futile if you resort to electing terrorists. The palestinians have been fed a steady dose of propoganda. They believe that their "victories" in securing parts of Gaza and the West Bank are not due to compromise and negotiation on behalf of the Israelis. They are told that the terrorists have "bled" the Zionists into submission, and that the terror war is their only recourse- and their only weapon. The money given (mostly by the west) to improve the situation has been mismanaged by a corrupt palestinian leadership, who seeks to keep the people in poverty- creating a breeding ground for hate and suicide bombers. Money goes not to improving housing, or medical care, or education- but to bombmaking, propoganda, and into the wallets of the corrupt Palestinian Authority. This move, although understandable from an outsider's point of view, will increase support for the war hawks in the Israeli government- and will, in fact, make the Israeli elections turn into a land slide for the more militant parties.
Well, since history is written by the winners, I guess there are lots of terrorist organizations that have gone legit, but Hamas is nowhere near the level that the IRA/Sinn Fein were when they made the jump. I don't see this going well at all, at least in the short term.

Fouad Adjami described this as a fatalistic vote. I agree with him. Nobody thinks Hamas is going to actually govern. I think the Palestinians have given up on peace, on a Palestinian state, on themselves. It's a damned shame -- the Palestinians are pretty much the only people in the Mid-east I have much sympathy for, seeing as they've been repeatedly screwed by everyone they've ever dealt with, including and primarily their fellow Arabs. All those suicide bombers -- I always thought it was a sign of hopelessness. I think this proves it. They've just strapped one big, political, suicide bomb vest onto themselves.

I saw the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Al-Zahar, during his interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN today. He sounded like an absolute nutcase -- but worse, he also seemed naive and stupid.
LOL, sounds a bit like Bush. :D

That's one weakness of democracy, it's just a popularity contest which says nothing about the competence and suitability of the people elected.

Well, if you vote for a radical fundamentalist organization that advocates the eradication of Israel and the Jews, you get this. It seems like he's suggesting that Israel give up its territory, and they'll give Israel peace until they decide they want more, and then more. He actually seems to be trying to coerce Israel in to appeasement of Hamas.

He'll isolate the nation and make them more poor, and then blame Israel further fueling anti-Israel sentiment and actually keeping them in power.
I'm wondering whether we both saw/read the same interview! Al-Zahar was hinting, as strongly as he can, that Hamas would accept a two-state solution, with the pre-1967 borders (in accordance with international law and UN resolutions), and then "let time heal". Obviously, Hamas's desired permanent solution is a single state of Muslims, Jews and Christians across all Palestine, but, coming from Hamas, the acceptance of two states for the time being is a remarkable concession. He is not asking that Israel give up its territory, only that it gives up Palestinian territory which it has been illegally occupying and settling since 1967.

There's a bit of an analogy with Ireland here. The 1937 constitution of the Irish Republic laid a claim to the whole of Ireland, but accepted that, for the time being, the republic's jurisdiction would cover only the 26 counties. After 62 years, it finally conceded this cardinal principle in the interests of peace and was persuaded to remove the claim from the constitution. The change in Ireland only came about after governments talked to terrorists. If Hamas is already talking about two states, then in a few decades it (or whoever is in power by then) might well accept that it is a permanent arrangement.

It seems to me that the onus is now on Israel to get out of the occupied territories and make peace, and not to use the fact that Hamas (like Israel) engages in terrorist activities as an excuse to avoid doing so.

But you are right in the idea that government and elected leaders must be worthless, and the political system must be futile if you resort to electing terrorists.
Far from it. People whom some label "terrorists", and others label "freedom fighters", have been elected to power time and time again in countries which are seeking, or have just achieved, independence, not least in Israel itself, where terrorism was used in the fight to establish a Jewish state. One day's leader of a terrorist organization is the next day's respected statesman. Menachim Begin and Nelson Mandela come to mind.

The palestinians have been fed a steady dose of propoganda. They believe that their "victories" in securing parts of Gaza and the West Bank are not due to compromise and negotiation on behalf of the Israelis. They are told that the terrorists have "bled" the Zionists into submission, and that the terror war is their only recourse- and their only weapon.
The language is extreme - which is not unsual in such circumstances - but it contains an element of truth. If the Palestinians hadn't embarked on terrorist campaigns, Israel would not only never have made concessions - it would still be denying their very existence.

The money given (mostly by the west) to improve the situation has been mismanaged by a corrupt palestinian leadership, who seeks to keep the people in poverty- creating a breeding ground for hate and suicide bombers. Money goes not to improving housing, or medical care, or education- but to bombmaking, propoganda, and into the wallets of the corrupt Palestinian Authority.
This is a major factor in the election of Hamas. Whatever else it may be, it is not seen as corrupt, and has won hearts and minds with extensive provision of social care, even though it was not in government. After decades of fighting and talking and still no independent state, Palestinians could be understandably cynical about there ever being a final peace settlement. With the negotiated peace-seeking Fatah in charge, Israel continued to take land at will, bombs civilians, bulldoze communities, erect barriers along borders of its choosing - how much worse can it get, short of genocide? They might as well elect an administration which is going to take a harder line with Israel and sort-out corruption and deprivation at home.

This move, although understandable from an outsider's point of view, will increase support for the war hawks in the Israeli government- and will, in fact, make the Israeli elections turn into a land slide for the more militant parties.
It works both ways. Israel's actions increase support for the hawks in Palestine too.

Well, if you vote for a radical fundamentalist organization that advocates the eradication of Israel and the Jews, you get this. It seems like he's suggesting that Israel give up its territory, and they'll give Israel peace until they decide they want more, and then more. He actually seems to be trying to coerce Israel in to appeasement of Hamas.


Heaven forbid Israel complies with international law and UN resolutions and withdraws from the territories it has been illegally occupying for almost 40 years.