NationStates Jolt Archive

There's been some bitching back and forth on the How old are you thread about when WW2 actually started. So, let's hear your opinions on this, in that topics very own thread.

I'll go with (almost) the traditional date, September the third, 1939. Since that is when Britain and France (along with Australia and New Zealand, and I should think other members of the Commonwealth etc.) declared war on Germany, bringing in the world aspect to a single conflict. Candidates that predate that, such as Italy invading Abyssinia or Japan invading Manchuria, lack that world element.

But, yeah, I might be wrong. So have at it.

3rd of September 1939 http://www.worldwar-2.net/

on June 28, 1919

Depends on what you want to classify as the start.

You realy have 3 years to choose from:

1937
1938
1939

at the end of WW1

More precisely when Germany was crippled and humiliated by the treaty to end WW1.

**is swayed by all the arguments**

at the end of WW1 don't be daft that ended in 1918

Depends where you live, as you say. As Brits we'd probably say September 3rd, but as a global thing it was too gradual to start in a day.

don't be daft that ended in 1918

*applauds sarcastically*

We knew that.

More precisely when Germany was crippled and humiliated by the treaty to end WW1.
That was most of the reason why it happened, but it took another twenty years before things really came to the boil properly.

That was most of the reason why it happened, but it took another twenty years before things really came to the boil properly.

Yes but I'd argue that after that war was inevitable, it was only a matter of time so WW2 effectively began in 1918.

*applauds sarcastically*

We knew that. very droll

Yes but I'd argue that after that war was inevitable, it was only a matter of time so WW2 effectively began in 1918.

Just because something is inevitable doesn't mean its started already ;)

don't be daft that ended in 1918btw I added the exact date...

June 28, 1919

Yes but I'd argue that after that war was inevitable, it was only a matter of time so WW2 effectively began in 1918.

I don't know about that. IIRC, Germany was hit very hard by the Wall Street Crash, which sort of killed the Weimar republic and opened a doorway for the Nazis. I don't think it would have been the same scenario at all had that not happened.

btw I added the exact date...

June 28, 1919

1919? Who kept fighting till then?

very droll

Thank you.

Yes but I'd argue that after that war was inevitable, it was only a matter of time so WW2 effectively began in 1918.
It was inevitable but it wasn't declared until the late '30s and prior to that it wasn't a war.

Thank you. Pleasure ;)

1919? Who kept fighting till then?

'tis the date of the Versailles treaty.

I don't know about that. IIRC, Germany was hit very hard by the Wall Street Crash, which sort of killed the Weimar republic and opened a doorway for the Nazis. I don't think it would have been the same scenario at all had that not happened.

I think Hitler would still have risen to power by exploiting the sense of humiliation and anger at the 'sanctions'. By presenting a scape goat in the form of the jews he could have seized power even without an economic crash.

'tis the date of the Versailles treaty.

Ah, I was working on Armistice Day 11/11.

Since my first statement got ignored.....

Most historians use Sept. 1, 1939 as the date of the start of WWII. However, others have argued that it started in 1937 when Japan invaded China (July 7, 1937).

I think Hitler would still have risen to power by exploiting the sense of humiliation and anger at the 'sanctions'. By presenting a scape goat in the form of the jews he could have seized power even without an economic crash.

Maybe. I wonder if he could have gotten the same degree of power, though. I can definitely see that he could have gotten somewhere that way, but without the crash I can't see the population turning to such an extreme government.

Since my first statement got ignored.....

Most historians use Sept. 1, 1939 as the date of the start of WWII. However, others have argued that it started in 1937 when Japan invaded China (July 7, 1937).

Some even state that it began in 1931 with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. Not that I agree, but eh.

1939, dude.

Is there really anyone who'll honestly dispute that it started in 1939?

dp

Some even state that it began in 1931 with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. Not that I agree, but eh.

As a WWII historian, I don't agree with that date either. I can see 1937 though.

1939, dude.

Is there really anyone who'll honestly dispute that it started in 1939?

Historians.

Is there really anyone who'll honestly dispute that it started in 1939?

Apparently so.

1939, dude.

Is there really anyone who'll honestly dispute that it started in 1939?

It seems there are.

Historians.
I thought you was a meteorologist. That's what you tell everyone whenever there's a thread on global warming...

I thought you was a meteorologist. That's what you tell everyone whenever there's a thread on global warming...

I said I studied meteorology. Not exactly the samething.

I said I studied meteorology. Not exactly the samething.
Well you can't be an expert on everything, can you?

1939 or bust.

As a WWII historian, I don't agree with that date either. I can see 1937 though.

Aye. You could also put forward the argument that it wasn't truly a "world" war until 1941 - perhaps a little earlier if you consider lend lease, etc.

Just because something is inevitable doesn't mean its started already ;)you could always try to figure who did strike first.. and exactly when did that happen..

the first bullet shot?
the first bomb?
the first victim?
the first man Killed?
The first Soldier killed?
The first soldier entering another Country?
when it is officially declared by a military Commander?
when it is officially declared by a Head of state?
when Congress approves it?

Its up to you really..

But as far as I am concerned.. it all started on
June 28, 1919

Well you can't be an expert on everything, can you?

Why not? :p

Well you can't be an expert on everything, can you?

1939 or bust.

I could have so much fun with this. Ok, lets assume 1939. What date you wanna use for it?

Aye. You could also put forward the argument that it wasn't truly a "world" war until 1941 - perhaps a little earlier if you consider lend lease, etc.

Not really since the US was sending supplies to the allies in 1939 so in a way it was still global. Not to mention French Indochina and India too were involved in the war prior to 1941.

I could have so much fun with this. Ok, lets assume 1939. What date you wanna use for it?
What, am I here to provide you with fun? You isn't even your actual self on-line, you told everyone the other day you're just an online persona wh doesn't even represent your real-world opinions, etc.

What would be the point in providing amusement to an admitted phony?

*drops boxcutters*

K, I'm done.

What, am I here to provide you with fun? You isn't even your actual self on-line, you told everyone the other day you're just an online persona wh doesn't even represent your real-world opinions, etc.

What would be the point in providing amusement to an admitted phony?

*drops boxcutters*

K, I'm done.

So assuming 1939, what date you wanna use?

Not really since the US was sending supplies to the allies in 1939 so in a way it was still global. Not to mention French Indochina and India too were involved in the war prior to 1941.

I agree, but if someone stated "1941", I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

Personally, September the 1st, 1939 does it for me.

I agree, but if someone stated "1941", I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

Personally, September the 1st, 1939 does it for me.

I'll take march 1939 if you want my opinion.

Aye. You could also put forward the argument that it wasn't truly a "world" war until 1941 - perhaps a little earlier if you consider lend lease, etc.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa aren't sufficient to qualify it as a 'World' War?

September 1, 1939 when Germany invaded Poland.

I'll take march 1939 if you want my opinion.

And you have a justification for that?

September 1, 1939 when Germany invaded Poland.

What about when the Germans enter Prague?

And you have a justification for that?

Was when the German Army entered Praque.

Personally, September the 1st, 1939 does it for me.Like it does for most USians, Canadians, Brits, etc (and most Anglosaxons)...

Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa aren't sufficient to qualify it as a 'World' War?

Sure. Australian myself, and while at times we might be regarded as being from another world, I would generally say that we are part of the same one. :p

You could however argue that none of those countries had conflict directly on their doorstep until 1942. I wouldn't, but I wouldn't dismiss it as an illegitimate argument, either.

I'll take march 1939 if you want my opinion.

You could certainly argue that.

I too say it was in Sept. 1939 when Germany invaded Poland and the UK/France declared war on them. Up to that point, most of the conflicts (Japan invading China, Italy invading Ethiopia, Germany swallowing up territory, ect.) were strictly regional. It was only when the big colonial powers got involved that it became a World War.

What about when the Germans enter Prague?
But the Allies only declared war in September. If Hitler had dropped dead in April 39, for example, WW2 would not have happened. If he had dropped dead after September 39, the war would still have been fought.

But the Allies only declared war in September. If Hitler had dropped dead in April 39, for example, WW2 would not have happened. If he had dropped dead after September 39, the war would still have been fought.

Just because the shooting war started on Sept 1, 1939, doesn't mean you can argue the war starting prior to that.

More precisely when Germany was crippled and humiliated by the treaty to end WW1.

Exactly... WW2 was a consequence of the Versailles treaty. Well, of the Versailles treaty and the 1929 crisis combined.

And say that we predicted it... the title of l'Humanité (french communist party newspaper) at the tomorrow of the Versailles treaty was: "They assassinated peace !" protesting against the conditions imposed to Germany, and warning it could lead to another war... but who would listen to communists ?

Sometimes, it's sad to see you (well, your comrades of that time) were right... if only we had been wrong...

I too say it was in Sept. 1939 when Germany invaded Poland and the UK/France declared war on them. Up to that point, most of the conflicts (Japan invading China, Italy invading Ethiopia, Germany swallowing up territory, ect.) were strictly regional. It was only when the big colonial powers got involved that it became a World War.

You can argue that but you can actually argue any dates being tossed around.

But the Allies only declared war in September. If Hitler had dropped dead in April 39, ..If hitler had died in April there is also the possibility that Germany wins the Europe War
.. and the US woul've had no choice but to sign a peace treaty...

Just because the shooting war started on Sept 1, 1939, doesn't mean you can argue the war starting prior to that.
Well, in my oppinion, the war started in September exactly because that's when the shooting started. :p You can't have a war without shooting.

You can argue that but you can actually argue any dates being tossed around.
True, and I understand the reasoning behind it, but I have a much stricter definition of when a war starts; the cause of WWII is very much the signing of the treaty that crippled Germany, but I wouldn't say it started WWII.

If hitler had died in April there is also the possibility that Germany wins the Europe War
.. and the US woul've had no choice but to sign a peace treaty...

A distinct Possibility. That or if Hitler let his officials actually fight it instead of micromanaging it as he did.

If hitler had died in April there is also the possibility that Germany wins the Europe War
.. and the US woul've had no choice but to sign a peace treaty...
But.. would the war even start without Hitler? I was under the impression that most generals were very reluctant to attack Poland, fearing a war on two fronts.

Well, in my oppinion, the war started in September exactly because that's when the shooting started. :p You can't have a war without shooting.

Cold War anyone?

But.. would the war even start without Hitler? I was under the impression that most generals were very reluctant to attack Poland, fearing a war on two fronts.your "impressions" are dictated by Wartime Propaganda.


and so are everybody elses.. To different degrees.. We are just humans..

Cold War anyone?

Not the same type of war.

Cold War anyone?
I think he was thinking in terms of "Hot" War

Cold War anyone?
I was sure somebody would mention it. :) That wasn't a real war, it was more an arms race, simmilar with what took place between Britain and Germany before WW1, for example. The reason the Cold War didn't develop into a 'real' war is obvious (Atomic bombs).

I was sure somebody would mention it. :) That wasn't a real war, it was more an arms race, simmilar with what took place between Britain and Germany before WW1, for example. The reason the Cold War didn't develop into a 'real' war is obvious (Atomic bombs).

Good point, I will concede that! However, no historian can agree on one date when it comes to the Start of World War II. Look at this board. We are all over the place.

your "impressions" are dictated by Wartime Propaganda.


and so are everybody elses.. To different degrees.. We are just humans..
Care to explain what makes you think the German generals wanted a war?

Well, in my oppinion, the war started in September exactly because that's when the shooting started. :p You can't have a war without shooting.Major or minor shootings? there were plenty of "incidents"..

But.. If you want to focus on major "Shooting".. it started on July.

7 July 1937.

Good point, I will concede that! However, no historian can agree on one date when it comes to the Start of World War II. Look at this board. We are all over the place.
OK, I'm going to propose a compromise solution. WW2 started between, hmm, let's see... 11/11 1918 and 3/9 1939. Any disagreements? :D

Major or minor shootings? there were plenty of "incidents"..

But.. If you want to focus on major "Shooting".. it started on July.

7 July 1937.
But the Asian war was not connected in any way to the European war. Had the European war not started, the war between Japan and China would have remained just a regional conflict. On the other hand, even without that war, the conflicts in Europe would have been enough to start a world conflagration.

I'm going to say September 1939. All of the incidents before that were regional. The policy of appeasement was developed by the British to prevent war and was still continuing until 1939, so Hitler's invasion of other countries cannot be considered acts of war.

My opinion anyway.

Care to explain what makes you think the German generals wanted a war?I will not "explain".

But If you think only Hitler wanted to un-Versaille-it.. By whatever means.
If you think it was all Hitler..

All I can tel you is "Your brain has been fully consumed by Propaganda"

OK, I'm going to propose a compromise solution. WW2 started between, hmm, let's see... 11/11 1918 and 3/9 1939. Any disagreements? :DI 100% fully agree with you.

I should've made a poll

I will not "explain".

But If you think only Hitler wanted to un-Versaille-it.. By whatever means.
If you think it was all Hitler..

All I can tel you is "Your brain has fully been consumed by Propaganda"
If you don't want to explain, then I can't carry a debate with you. Presuming my propaganda consumed brain would be able to form coherent thoughts, of course...

If you don't want to explain, then I can't carry a debate with you. Presuming my propaganda consumed brain would be able to form coherent thoughts, of course..... of course.
BTW.. we are all affected by Propaganda.. Including me of course.

If you see my previous posts.. I am not into debating a date.. cos first we have to define this:
What kind of incident defines a "War start"

but I do agree with this guy:WW2 started between... 11/11 1918 and 3/9 1939.

I should've made a poll
But you couldn't have known all the possible dates which have been proposed on this thread. To be honest, I wasn't even aware the date WW2 started was under debate.

*shakes head* when Germany invaded poland, september 1 1939.

But you couldn't have known all the possible dates which have been proposed on this thread. To be honest, I wasn't even aware the date WW2 started was under debate.

I wouldn't have thought to put the Versaille treaty on there, that's for sure.

Ok, WWII did not start pretty much straight after WWI, or else there wouldn't be two world wars, duhh... Anyway, I'm not saying a specific date, because you can't stick a specific date to the start of the second world war. I just think that WWII started around 1938,1939.

What kind of incident defines a "War start"[/B]
That's actually a very good observation. But I'm too lazy to propose a definition, although I have some foggy notions in my mind. Perhaps other people will...

WWII Started In Asia In 1933 When Japan First Invaded The Only Country To Really Fight Back, China.

WWII Started In Europe In 1939 When Germany Invaded Poland, Which Then Prompted Britian And France To Declare War On Germany.

WWII Started For The U.S.A. In 1941 When Japan Attacked Pearl Harbor.

WWII Started For The Russians In 1941 When Germany Launched Operation Barbarossa (The Operation Which Ultimately Led To The Defeat Of Germany)

WWII Started For The Russians In 1941 When Germany Launched Operation Barbarossa (The Operation Which Ultimately Led To The Defeat Of Germany)

Not 1939 when they invaded Poland?

I could say 9th of april 1940 to the 5th of may 1945

As far as a continuous conflict goes, that'd be from 1st of september 1939 to 15th of august 1945. Course, wars aren't necessarily continuous.

btw - I got all these dates from an encyclopedia. It just states WWII, but then doesn't go on to say when it started or ended. It just mentions all the various countries involved, when They got involved and when They weren't involved anymore.

Not 1939 when they invaded Poland?
No, Russia Had A (Shaky) Treaty With Germany. They Weren't Allied With The Poles, Either. They Only Attacked Germany After Germany Attacked Them. Kind Of Like Us, Huh? And I Thought We Had Nothing In Common With Commies... *Sarcasm*

Well, I always thought, that the moment when German battleship started to bombard our (I am Pole) coast, and their troops crossed Polish borders, was enough to be called "the start of WWII". This at last caused France and Britain to oppose Hitler, whereas neither Czechoslovakia events nor Anschluss nor Spanish Civil War was enough.
Without this WWII would probably begin with Russian invasion on Europe, or on Pacific, I guess.

Talking about events which led to this certain one, they're, of course, Versailles and the 1929 (am I right?) crash, thus I agree with you. But I'd not call them the moment when WWII started.

[edit: Ritlina, I'd also agree with Your post with those four dates, with exception of 1933. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't consider it "WW-like" enough]

I could say 9th of april 1940 to the 5th of may 1945

As far as a continuous conflict goes, that'd be from 1st of september 1939 to 15th of august 1945. Course, wars aren't necessarily continuous.

btw - I got all these dates from an encyclopedia. It just states WWII, but then doesn't go on to say when it started or ended. It just mentions all the various countries involved, when They got involved and when They weren't involved anymore.Does your encyclopedia mention Japan or China?(They forgot Poland)..

Actually Your encyclopedia did not forget Poland.

edit: Ritlina, I'd also agree with Your post with those four dates, with exception of 1933. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't consider it "WW-like" enoughGermany invading Czechoslovakia or Poland is not World War either.. at most is European War.

these Conflicts later became World War.. when countries from 5 continents participated.

But you couldn't have known all the possible dates which have been proposed on this thread. To be honest, I wasn't even aware the date WW2 started was under debate.

Its always been under debate.

Ok, WWII did not start pretty much straight after WWI, or else there wouldn't be two world wars, duhh... Anyway, I'm not saying a specific date, because you can't stick a specific date to the start of the second world war. I just think that WWII started around 1938,1939.

Actually, some historians claim that WWI and WWII are the same war, just with a 20 year break in between. And yes, this can also be argued :D

WWII Started In Asia In 1933 When Japan First Invaded The Only Country To Really Fight Back, China.

Are you talking about the Manchurian Invasion of 1931 or the 2nd Sino-Japanese war of 1937?

WWII Started In Europe In 1939 When Germany Invaded Poland, Which Then Prompted Britian And France To Declare War On Germany.

What about when Germany marched into Prague or Vienna?

WWII Started For The U.S.A. In 1941 When Japan Attacked Pearl Harbor.

This is written in stone :D

WWII Started For The Russians In 1941 When Germany Launched Operation Barbarossa (The Operation Which Ultimately Led To The Defeat Of Germany)

An accurate statement.

Actually, some historians claim that WWI and WWII are the same war, just with a 20 year break in between. And yes, this can also be argued :DIn a way WW2 is an extension of WW2..

Because without WW1's (Versailles).. there would have been no WW2

In a way WW2 is an extension of WW2..

Because without WW1's (Versailles).. there would have been no WW2

And WWII was actually preventable.

And WWII was actually preventable.The most preventable War in History.. is iL_Bushio's War.
AKA Bushite War :D :D :p :D

I read the first page and couldn't be arsed to read the rest.

To those of you who say WW2 started in !918 that is a load of rubbish. Sure the Treaty of Versailles was a major factor contributing to WW2 there were also many others. Trying to trace things back to their first cause like that may make you seem really big and clever but for all the strength of your army you could say it was when God made the world because from then it was inevitable.
You can never answer this question, mainly because "WW2" never happened. When Britain etc. Declared war on Germany after hitler invaded Poland they did not say "We declare war on Poland and it shall eb World War Two". We can trace periods of conflict, Hitler invading countries, Mussolini in Abbysinisa as wars. Wether you can count these as the beginning of WW2 is debatable. This will probably go into does World War Two deserve the status of a World War? When the hostilities reach a certain point people p[robably started calling it that. Just accept that when Britain etc. declared war on Germany it was the beginning, as before then no two major powers were openly at war. If anybody wants to challenge me saying it was 1918 or around then try me.

PS. I'm only a guest who plays nationstates so i probably won't reply.

Does your encyclopedia mention Japan or China?(They forgot Poland)..

Actually Your encyclopedia did not forget Poland.

It includes... wait.

btw, while you're waiting, how did you know which encyclopedia I was using? :P

Anyway, this is an encyclopedia from the 1970s. it states the following with regards to which nations entered when and such and such.

The dates are put: day, month, year.

(it actually states that it lasted from 1939 to 1945)

The axis:
Germany and Austria - 1.9.1939 to 7.5.1945
Italy
Albania, Bulgaria, Finland, Hrvatska (wtf?), Romania, Slovakia, Hungary - 26.6.1941 to 4.9.1944
Japan, inc. Manchuria, Eastern China and Thailand - 7.12.1941 to 15.8.1945

Allied forces:
Poland - 1.9.1939 to spring of 1945
Great Britain inc. colonies and France - 3.9.1939 to 15.8.1945
Denmark (occupied by Germany) - 9.4.1940 to 5.5.1945
Norway - 9.4.1940 to 7.5.1945
The Netherlands - 10.5.1940 to 5.5.1945
Belgium - 10.5.1940 to january 1945
Yugoslavia - 6.4.1941 to may 1945
Greece - 6.4.1941 to october 1944
USSR - 22.6.1941 to 15.8.1945
USA - 7.12.1941 to 15.8.1945
This list should also include the part of china that wasn't occupied by Japan and a number of countries in Africa, Asia and the Americas. (they give no reason why it doesn't include these countries).

.. Just accept that when Britain etc. declared war on Germany it was the beginning..Why should I "Just" accept that?
You are not the sole holder of the truth.

The war "officially" started when Germany invaded Poland and France and England declared war. You could argue that it technically started when Germany invaded the Sudatenland.

"Hrvatska (wtf?)"

The Croatian name for Croatia. It was independent for a while during WW2.

It includes... wait.

btw, while you're waiting, how did you know which encyclopedia I was using? :P
...
...
The axis:
Germany and Austria - 1.9.1939 to 7.5.1945
Italy
Albania, Bulgaria, Finland, Hrvatska (wtf?), Romania, Slovakia, Hungary - 26.6.1941 to 4.9.1944
Japan, inc. Manchuria, Eastern China and Thailand - 7.12.1941 to 15.8.1945

Allied forces:
Poland - 1.9.1939 to spring of 1945
Great Britain inc. colonies and France - 3.9.1939 to 15.8.1945
Denmark (occupied by Germany) - 9.4.1940 to 5.5.1945
Norway - 9.4.1940 to 7.5.1945
The Netherlands - 10.5.1940 to 5.5.1945
Belgium - 10.5.1940 to january 1945
Yugoslavia - 6.4.1941 to may 1945
Greece - 6.4.1941 to october 1944
USSR - 22.6.1941 to 15.8.1945
USA - 7.12.1941 to 15.8.1945
This list should also include the part of china that wasn't occupied by Japan and a number of countries in Africa, Asia and the Americas. (they give no reason why it doesn't include these countries).so China is on the 40's AXIS-of-EVIL side now?

I reckon WW2 was just the inevitable fighting that proceeded after WW1. The years in between were an uneasy Ceasefire. Even without Hitler there would have been a war around that time, because of the Depression.

Great Britain inc. colonies and France - 3.9.1939 to 15.8.1945

Not all the Commonwealth countries declared war on the 3rd...

New Foundland 4th Sept '39
South Africa 6th Sept '39
Canada 10th Sept '39

The axis:
Germany and Austria - 1.9.1939 to 7.5.1945
Italy
Albania, Bulgaria, Finland, Hrvatska (wtf?), Romania, Slovakia, Hungary - 26.6.1941 to 4.9.1944


Not as simple as that: both Bulgaria and Italy changed sides from Axis to Allies during the war, and I have a feeling that another nation did too... is it Albania I'm thinking of?* IIRC there was one nation which was officially at war with both the Axis powers and the Allies simultaneously for a short period of time.


* Albania, Rumania and Hungary, apparently.

"Hrvatska (wtf?)"

The Croatian name for Croatia. It was independent for a while during WW2.

I shall use this piece of information wisely.

I don't see why the encyclopedia didn't say Kroatien, as it was a danish encyclopedia. Maybe whoever wrote it decided to call it Hrvatska to confuse everyone who doesn't know anything about Croatia.

so China is on the 40's AXIS-of-EVIL side now?

Actually, no, that part of China was specified as being with the allies.

The "rest" thingy wasn't very clear on who'se side, but I supposed it just involved victims (north african countries) and colonies (India for example)

Not all the Commonwealth countries declared war on the 3rd...

New Foundland 4th Sept '39
South Africa 6th Sept '39
Canada 10th Sept '39

Also useful to know.

Stupid 1970s encyclopedia :P

Not as simple as that: both Bulgaria and Italy changed sides from Axis to Allies during the war, and I have a feeling that another nation did too... is it Albania I'm thinking of?* IIRC there was one nation which was officially at war with both the Axis powers and the Allies simultaneously for a short period of time.


* Albania, Rumania and Hungary, apparently.

Hopefully, they actually go into details later on. Although they should've put Italy and the others under allies for the rest of the war.

Again, stupid 1970s :P

Stupid 1970s encyclopedia :P

The world was a simpler place back then. If you go back to the middle ages it was even more straightforward - there were actually only twelve things in existence at that point, and nine of them belonged to the King.

Not as simple as that: both Bulgaria and Italy changed sides from Axis to Allies during the war, and I have a feeling that another nation did too...They probably changed sides because they figured their side was lost.

They probably changed sides because they figured their side was lost.

Italy surrendered to the allies and then turned around and declared war on Germany.

They probably changed sides because they figured their side was lost.

Well, Italy pretty much changed sides from the bottom up: witness what happened to Mussolini. It was hardly just a piece of political opportunism.

to go back to the original topic of this thread....
WWII started Sept. 1, 1939 when Germany opened fire on Poland, and violated its borders with the blitzkreig. To say it started any later is a slap in the face of Poland and her gallant fighters who were brutally attacked by the werhmacht with little warning.

to go back to the original topic of this thread....
WWII started Sept. 1, 1939 when Germany opened fire on Poland, and violated its borders with the blitzkreig. To say it started any later is a slap in the face of Poland and her gallant fighters who were brutally attacked by the werhmacht with little warning.

Even though historians can argue about when it actually started?

WWII started Sept. 1, 1939 when Germany opened fire on Poland, and violated its borders with the blitzkreig.
It's "Blitzkrieg", and since we didn't win, you can call it "lightning warfare".

To say it started any later is a slap in the face of Poland and her gallant fighters who were brutally attacked by the werhmacht with little warning.
The real slap in the face was their own leadership, which told them that they would be in Berlin in a matter of weeks, and the Allies which sorta couldn't be bothered with them.

It started when France and Britain got wishy-washy on their appeasement policy.

But the Asian war was not connected in any way to the European war. Had the European war not started, the war between Japan and China would have remained just a regional conflict. On the other hand, even without that war, the conflicts in Europe would have been enough to start a world conflagration.

So why should connection to the European war make any difference? The European war was merely that - European. Had Japan and the US not joined the war, it would have remained so - merely a regional war, albeit an important one. And no, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and India do not count, since they fought under the banner of the British Empire, and there was no fighting outside the Euro-Med region.

The power of the combatants is not sufficient to make a conflict a World War. It must spread to all corners of the globe, affecting every nation, and frankly the European War was never going to do that on it's own.

7 July 1937 is the date of the start of the first contiguous conflict that became part of the Second World War. It did not become a World War in fact until the entry of Japan and the United States almost five years later, after Pearl Harbour.

I can accept either of the above dates. But 1939 is unsupportable, a result of rampant euro-centrism.

to go back to the original topic of this thread....
WWII started Sept. 1, 1939 when Germany opened fire on Poland, and violated its borders with the blitzkreig. To say it started any later is a slap in the face of Poland and her gallant fighters who were brutally attacked by the werhmacht with little warning.

I argue that the war started at different times for the various nations.

Since a lot of nations were involved, setting a single date is hard.

In a 1 vs 1 war, it's easy. But this is a Lots vs Lots war, where not everybody started at the same time.

For Poland and Germany, it did start on sept 1, 1939.