NationStates Jolt Archive

On the main continent of the world known as 'Cradle', dinosaurs did not go extinct. Over time one species (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/Engineer.jpg) developed high intelligence and eventually became avid genetic engineers. One of their creations was the dragon:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDinoSml.jpg

So! I'm putting a call out for comments and criticism on this design. Constructive criticism is preferred, but if you feel that this is a total abomination feel free to say so! All comments are welcome, on the idea, on the anatomy, on whether or not you like it and why... knock yourselves out.

My own comments on it currently are:
The wings are pretty bad, but I forgive myself that because it's the first time I've ever drawn wings seriously - as well as the first time I've drawn a dinosaur seriously - and wings are complicated.
The way this dragon is positioned, it would quite likely fall over from not being balanced properly.
I don't like the leg. There's something wrong with it. Somebody tell me what is wrong with that leg.

Larger version here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDino.jpg).

Also, feel free to ask questions.

Why are the wings coming out of the thing's rump?

Me no likey teh feathers. Thats just me though.

Why are the wings coming out of the thing's rump?
probably center of mass.

featers throw me tho... rather the reptilian dragons with the wings coming out of the shoulder blades.

Why are the wings coming out of the thing's rump?

So people can ride on the neck. The wings are not modifictions on arms like you'd find in archaeopteryx or birds, but are actually heavily altered legs, attached to a second pair of hips. The first and second toes are still a visible part of the wing.

I think the problem with the legs is that the creature isn't squatting down on them enough for his size and thiers, so it looks like it's elevating but not elevating any other part of its body, which makes it look unnatural.

That's my impression, take into account I can't even draw a damn stick figure, so...

So people can ride on the neck. The wings are not modifictions on arms like you'd find in archaeopteryx or birds, but are actually heavily altered legs, attached to a second pair of hips. The first and second toes are still a visible part of the wing.
I think (and can be wrong) that it'd need a longer, heavier tail for balance. Otherwise it'd be in a constant nose dive.

Tis an original lookin dragon I must say. 4 legged might be a better idea though. It's make for easier landings and take offs.

So people can ride on the neck. The wings are not modifictions on arms like you'd find in archaeopteryx or birds, but are actually heavily altered legs, attached to a second pair of hips. The first and second toes are still a visible part of the wing.
if you move the wings forwards, then the person can sit behing the wing joints. that way the lift is at the heaviest part of the body... where the person sits. this design will have the poor critter nose-diving into the ground because the person is too heavy as it tries to fly.

Me no likey teh feathers. Thats just me though.

I hadn't originally planned on the feathers, but when it came down to designing the thing, it made more sense to go the way of the bird wing then the way of the more typical bat-like wing. Mostly just for the fact that birds kind of evolved from dinosaurs, and I also wasn't sure how well a bat-style wing could work with only two fingers. Though I suppose the engineers could have added fingers... However! In story, it makes more sense for them to have copied an archaeopteryx-like creature rather than a bat-creature.

Er... and this really has nothing to do with your personal distaste of the feathers. Whoops.

I think (and can be wrong) that it'd need a longer, heavier tail for balance. Otherwise it'd be in a constant nose dive.
That could be ammusing though.

I think the head needs to be bigger and a little more fierce looking.

I think the problem with the legs is that the creature isn't squatting down on them enough for his size and thiers, so it looks like it's elevating but not elevating any other part of its body, which makes it look unnatural.

That's my impression, take into account I can't even draw a damn stick figure, so...

Nono, I think you're right. Thanks!

dragons are gay, ligers own.

I think (and can be wrong) that it'd need a longer, heavier tail for balance. Otherwise it'd be in a constant nose dive.

It could do with a longer tail, and would probably have one if it weren't for the fact that the tip was at the very edge of the page I was drawing on.

That could be ammusing though.
It turns out that's thier strategy, they climb thier dragon cavalry to the top of the highest cliff and then just do these crazy controlled dives on the enemy. They have what amounts to a collapsable ski lift system to get the dragons and riders back to the top of the cliff for repeated dives.

You know what'd make that more awe-inspiring? Mutton chops! Did you think I'd forget? Did you? DID YOU?

dragons are gay, ligers own.

Pfft, ligers suck. Ligers are the mules of the jungle. Well the zoo.

dragons are gay, ligers own.
put one Liger in with one dragon(Komodo) and see who eats who.

if you move the wings forwards, then the person can sit behing the wing joints. that way the lift is at the heaviest part of the body... where the person sits. this design will have the poor critter nose-diving into the ground because the person is too heavy as it tries to fly.

Hmm... that's probably a very good point, but I'm rather attached to my leg-wings... Maybe the dragon can just... fly at an angle. *grasps for straws* I mean, if the hips are angle, then the wings could still be level... um. I'm not entirely sure what I'm talking about.

put one Liger in with one dragon(Komodo) and see who eats who.
Or who mates with who. Yay for the Ligon!

Hmm... that's probably a very good point, but I'm rather attached to my leg-wings... Maybe the dragon can just... fly at an angle. *grasps for straws* I mean, if the hips are angle, then the wings could still be level... um. I'm not entirely sure what I'm talking about.
if you wanna keep the wings there, then thicken and lenghten the tail, and shorten the torso.

then that leaves the wings (and that nasty looking claw) to frequently batter the back of the riders head as the wings move.

Hmm... that's probably a very good point, but I'm rather attached to my leg-wings... Maybe the dragon can just... fly at an angle. *grasps for straws* I mean, if the hips are angle, then the wings could still be level... um. I'm not entirely sure what I'm talking about.
More mass at the tail, past the wings. Which will also mean that the wings will have to be bigger. You can curl the dragons tail at the edge of the page. It sort of removes the scientific sketch element (which by the way excuses the extended legs, since they do that all the time in those drawings), but it allows you the extra space for the longer tail and heavier rump that would be needed to balance the beast. It'd also need a wider surface area for balance and manuverability, a fanned out tail or set of tails, otherwise the wings themselves have to extend wider as well as longer.

I think the head needs to be bigger and a little more fierce looking.

Bigger in what way? It could already like... bite a man in half pretty much. I'm not sure if I want to make it too much taller/thicker either, since it's based off the dromeosaurids and they have fairly slender heads.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly would make it look more fierce. Explain in more detail, please?

Why are the wings coming out of the thing's rump?
Yes i agree wings forward and replace the feathers with bat wings.
bigger snout too.

Bigger in what way? It could already like... bite a man in half pretty much. I'm not sure if I want to make it too much taller/thicker either, since it's based off the dromeosaurids and they have fairly slender heads.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly would make it look more fierce. Explain in more detail, please?

Oh heck....:confused:

ok by larger I probably meant that its too narrow, (like a bird beak) and should be taller on the head portion. Firece? Maybe more detail to the eyes...make sure the pupils are somewhat slanted.

More mass at the tail, past the wings. Which will also mean that the wings will have to be bigger. You can curl the dragons tail at the edge of the page. It sort of removes the scientific sketch element (which by the way excuses the extended legs, since they do that all the time in those drawings), but it allows you the extra space for the longer tail and heavier rump that would be needed to balance the beast. It'd also need a wider surface area for balance and manuverability, a fanned out tail or set of tails, otherwise the wings themselves have to extend wider as well as longer.

Wow, thanks! Though I won't really need to curl the tail (I think dromeosaurids had stiff tails anyway), I'll just have to start my next drawing further to the left of the page. This drawing was nearly two inches from the left edge for some reason...

Larger wings would also be fairly easy (they can also be put in a less awkward position), and I could make the tail more like that of the archaeopteryx.

Oh heck....:confused:

ok by larger I probably meant that its too narrow, (like a bird beak) and should be taller on the head portion. Firece? Maybe more detail to the eyes...make sure the pupils are somewhat slanted.

Okay! Yeah, there is room for the head to be somewhat fatter and blunter, and the eye bit is easy. The pupil would have been more of a slit, only my pencil wasn't co-operating and I was more interested in making the anatomy work.

that junk inside of its trunk behind its leg doesnt look too good. you should maybe make it less...standing outty...

Yes i agree wings forward and replace the feathers with bat wings.
bigger snout too.

The snout I can change, but the wings are going to stay bird-style. To shape a bat wing it'd have only two reeeeeally long, thin toes. Bird-style the two toes can form one bone half the length of what the bat-style toes would be.

Also, even with the whole hollow bones thing going on, this thing is going to weigh a lot, especially with a passenger. It's going to need all the advantage of lift it can get, and I think a bird wing follows the shape of an air foil a lot better than a bat wing, and would probably produce more lift. Someone who knows more about how bats fly is free to correct me.

EDIT: I think I'm wrong on the lift thing. Still, I'm not sure if a two-fingered bat wing would work too well.

I like the feather idea, especially the tail feathers.
I do hhave some crits though:
1. The wings are too far back, the placement would create lift problems such as:
a. Front would be too heavy and/or unsteady leading to unbalanced motion. Remember the head, neck, arms, and chest organs weigh a little more.
b. Skeletal wise the wings look as if they have no room for flapping motion. The shoulder bones would hit up againts the pelvis (pelvic bone).
2. The head looks too plain, like any other land based dino. Study the heads of other flying dinosaurs. Give it's head some aero-dynamics.

Thats all...

that junk inside of its trunk behind its leg doesnt look too good. you should maybe make it less...standing outty...

That's the result of a bone as can be seen in this model. (http://www.dinostoreus.com/velociraptor-skeleton-lg.jpg)

Wow, thanks! Though I won't really need to curl the tail (I think dromeosaurids had stiff tails anyway), I'll just have to start my next drawing further to the left of the page. This drawing was nearly two inches from the left edge for some reason...

Larger wings would also be fairly easy (they can also be put in a less awkward position), and I could make the tail more like that of the archaeopteryx.
Yeah, a stiff balancing tail, with maybe a spray (or diamond) of feathers on the end for a control surface.

Its this a flying animal with legs or a walking animal with extra-free-bonus wings? I think that's the main problem you are having with the middle section. The legs and wings are out of proportion with each other. I think, if it originates from an Archyopteryx stylee, then smaller, weaker legs would give it a more avian look. What it looks to me you've done is take the body of a raptor, and jammed some wings on top of it. Try thinking about the musaculture and bone structure required to power wings, then add that to the basic shape.
*reads thread again*
Ahh, they're derived from an engineered extra pair of legs. This would make for one complicated pelvis. Maybe the best way to think about that is like a 6 legged animal, then swing the middle legs up and around to form wings, the front pair shrink to form the arms, and the last pair to form the legs. Anatomically, this would shift the wings further forward, improving the balance, and allowing their flight muscles to be anchored to the breastbone, like in Archy'
This is great, it's good to see someone willing to break away from the standard lizard design. I can't wait to see the final result.:)

that junk inside of its trunk behind its leg doesnt look too good. you should maybe make it less...standing outty...
I believe that is supposed to be extra skin, so the tail can do whatever the Hell dragon tails do without tearing any skin.
The main problem I see with the legs, is that the right one is completely concealed by the right. Shouldn't there be at least a little profile to indicate that he isn't one-legged?
(Though the concept of a one-legged, dive-bombing dragon with feathers and fur is incredibly appealing to me)

Yeah, a stiff balancing tail, with maybe a spray (or diamond) of feathers on the end for a control surface.

Its this a flying animal with legs or a walking animal with extra-free-bonus wings? I think that's the main problem you are having with the middle section. The legs and wings are out of proportion with each other. I think, if it originates from an Archyopteryx stylee, then smaller, weaker legs would give it a more avian look. What it looks to me you've done is take the body of a raptor, and jammed some wings on top of it. Try thinking about the musaculture and bone structure required to power wings, then add that to the basic shape.
*reads thread again*
Ahh, they're derived from an engineered extra pair of legs. This would make for one complicated pelvis. Maybe the best way to think about that is like a 6 legged animal, then swing the middle legs up and around to form wings, the front pair shrink to form the arms, and the last pair to form the legs. Anatomically, this would shift the wings further forward, improving the balance, and allowing their flight muscles to be anchored to the breastbone, like in Archy'
This is great, it's good to see someone willing to break away from the standard lizard design. I can't wait to see the final result.:)

Hee, it probably would have been easier to design this thing from an evolutionary stand-point, rather than an engineered stand-point. Problem is, I couldn't see a flying/gliding things this large evolving naturally, and since the universe already had these gene-modifying dinosaur-men, the dragons got designed.

The main thinking I had behind the wings being near the original legs was that genetically, the first step the engineers would make was to just double the sequence for legs and then work out the bugs from there.

Come to think of it, they may have designed the dragon as flying transportation and then once done, found it to be a smashing failiure at that and put it other usage, or irresponsibly dumped the entire test population into the wilderness somewhere.

Glad you like the whole breaking out of the box thing! Some of my other story-worlds may have more typical dragons, but given the history I built for this one, the feathered flying-raptor came to be.

I believe that is supposed to be extra skin, so the tail can do whatever the Hell dragon tails do without tearing any skin.
The main problem I see with the legs, is that the right one is completely concealed by the right. Shouldn't there be at least a little profile to indicate that he isn't one-legged?
(Though the concept of a one-legged, dive-bombing dragon with feathers and fur is incredibly appealing to me)

Heh, yeah, you SHOULD be able to see both legs, probably both arms, and maybe even both wings. However, I was too lazy to try that on my first go.

You might want to include a "Beak" like tooth. since it's feathers and not scales, you know there will be parasites living in there and beaks are nice in preening. a very important task for a bird. so give it a beak tooth to preen itself with. the snout would tear up the feathers and the legs and 'Arms' won't reach the back.

You might want to include a "Beak" like tooth. since it's feathers and not scales, you know there will be parasites living in there and beaks are nice in preening. a very important task for a bird. so give it a beak tooth to preen itself with. the snout would tear up the feathers and the legs and 'Arms' won't reach the back.

Oooh. Nice detail. Though I'm not even sure if the dragon's head could reach it's wings to preen properly.

There are several ways to address this: 1) The engineers designed dragons as a domestic species, so all necessary care can be provided by the owners. 2) The engineers are uncaring, lazy asses and didn't bother to think about preening. The dragons are kind of screwed this way. 3) As a pack animal, the dragons do the whole communal grooming thing. A beak-type tooth could still be useful in this scenario, as I don't think razor-sharp claws are feather friendly. If raptors had egg teeth, it could just be an alteration on that.

Hee, it probably would have been easier to design this thing from an evolutionary stand-point, rather than an engineered stand-point. Problem is, I couldn't see a flying/gliding things this large evolving naturally, and since the universe already had these gene-modifying dinosaur-men, the dragons got designed.

The main thinking I had behind the wings being near the original legs was that genetically, the first step the engineers would make was to just double the sequence for legs and then work out the bugs from there.

Umm, if they have the expertise to splice genes like that, then they would probably start with the genetic code for some wings from another (related) animal and splice that in, as opposed to changing legs. You know, work with what you've go. Or maybe even half way between the two - double the legs, to give a supporting bone structure, then fiddle again to get wings. Hmm, I'm intrigued now.

the beak/snout is too long, if the jaw is so long, the creatures bite will be ineffective as the lever the joint muscles his jaw have to move will not allow enough torque. that makes him look more suited to pick up grains than to take a bite out of someone.

Umm, if they have the expertise to splice genes like that, then they would probably start with the genetic code for some wings from another (related) animal and splice that in, as opposed to changing legs. You know, work with what you've go. Or maybe even half way between the two - double the legs, to give a supporting bone structure, then fiddle again to get wings. Hmm, I'm intrigued now.

Well, there's most probably some transgenic aspects to the dragon, at least to the point of things like understanding how to make scales into feathers. However, I'm not sure which would be more difficult: Starting with something that's in the animal and then making it like something in another animal, or taking a structure from another animal and trying to make it compatible with the new animal.

I think the former might actually be the easier (though not necessarily better) method, since it kind of mirrors the process of evolution more closely. Not to mention that it would be fairly confusing to add structures from other animals, because it isn't just the bones, you have to get it so that veins, nerves, muscles, tendons, etc. all connect to the proper places in the new organism.

It'd be kind of like trying to put wings on a human. You COULD try and genetically 'graft' bird wings to a human, but you wouldn't have any of the proper supporting structures to make the wings work properly. However, if you double the sequences that give humans working arms, then adjusted the genes for things like shorter, more muscular arms, longer, thinner fingers and large webs between fingers, you could probably develop a reasonable fascimile of bat wings. They probably couldn't make a human fly, but they might work as something of a parachute.

EDIT: Also, I see the engineers as rather lazy and irresponsible with their ability to modigy genes, the technology being pretty easily accessed. Meaning that the people doing the modifying aren't necessarily the best at it. Which is probably why a genetically modifyed virus ends up wiping out most of their species and a large portion of other lifeforms living on the main continent...

the beak/snout is too long, if the jaw is so long, the creatures bite will be ineffective as the lever the joint muscles his jaw have to move will not allow enough torque. that makes him look more suited to pick up grains than to take a bite out of someone.

Well, it is a species engineered to be domestic, but I am planning on making the snout blunter and the head thicker. Though given the size of the thing, it could still probably bite off someone's head easy enough. :D The thing's skull is almost as long as I am tall.

EDIT: And by 'amost', I mean it's about a foot and a bit shorter than me.

I think the former might actually be the easier (though not necessarily better) method, since it kind of mirrors the process of evolution more closely. Not to mention that it would be fairly confusing to add structures from other animals, because it isn't just the bones, you have to get it so that veins, nerves, muscles, tendons, etc. all connect to the proper places in the new organism.

It'd be kind of like trying to put wings on a human. You COULD try and genetically 'graft' bird wings to a human, but you wouldn't have any of the proper supporting structures to make the wings work properly. However, if you double the sequences that give humans working arms, then adjusted the genes for things like shorter, more muscular arms, longer, thinner fingers and large webs between fingers, you could probably develop a reasonable fascimile of bat wings. They probably couldn't make a human fly, but they might work as something of a parachute.



Good logic. I now think they probably would start like that, but may use bits of code from other sources to get things like feathers and that (in the human example)

EDIT: Also, I see the engineers as rather lazy and irresponsible with their ability to modigy genes, the technology being pretty easily accessed. Meaning that the people doing the modifying aren't necessarily the best at it. Which is probably why a genetically modifyed virus ends up wiping out most of their species and a large portion of other lifeforms living on the main continent...Poetic justice - you gotta love it.

Good logic. I now think they probably would start like that, but may use bits of code from other sources to get things like feathers and that (in the human example)

Poetic justice - you gotta love it.

Eyup! Though it's kind of sad how thought-out I have all this, given that the actual story that I have that takes place on this world has absolutely nothing to do with the main continent, or the dinosaur-men. Though the main characters might meet a guy who met one of the dinosaur-men. Beyond that, the only connection is that the main characters have interactions with the dragons.

What's really odd is how much science (pseudo-science) I'm putting behind a story that is ultimately fantasy.

Well you started off trying to get the dragon to look anatomically plausible. Given that it was engineered, thinking how would they make it is good way of pictureing it. Highly logical Mr Spock. ;)

Eh, half the fun's in making up the bits of the story.

I own the Black Dragon Inn. There is an army coming toward the inn killing all the dragons. If you love dragons then you will get on your dragons and help me kill the dragonslayers.

Well you started off trying to get the dragon to look anatomically plausible. Given that it was engineered, thinking how would they make it is good way of pictureing it. Highly logical Mr Spock. ;)

Eh, half the fun's in making up the bits of the story.

This is true. Though I think it's just my being obsessed with having everything in a story known (at least to myself). I can't just have a civilization BE there. I have to know why and how, and what their culture is, and what it was, and how they interract with other cultures, and how that came to be, and the other civilizations past and blah blah blah, all the way back to the start of life on the planet.

Hem. I think maybe it's the scientist part of me sneaking into the author part. Or maybe I'm just a little crazy. Aw well, it makes for fewer plotholes and better consistency. And possible sideplots.

Also I can describe my dragon:

One horn on the snouth and two on the back of the head. Wings are right in the center of the body connected on the back. Dragon Saddle right on connection of neck and back. Long tail with three spikes on end. Long claws on hands and feet. Two spikes on back of each leg. Shoots fire at 1million degrees farheinheit.

Also I can describe my dragon:

One horn on the snouth and two on the back of the head. Wings are right in the center of the body connected on the back. Dragon Saddle right on connection of neck and back. Long tail with three spikes on end. Long claws on hands and feet. Two spikes on back of each leg. Shoots fire at 1million degrees farheinheit.
Riiiiight.

Also I can describe my dragon:

One horn on the snouth and two on the back of the head. Wings are right in the center of the body connected on the back. Dragon Saddle right on connection of neck and back. Long tail with three spikes on end. Long claws on hands and feet. Two spikes on back of each leg. Shoots fire at 1million degrees farheinheit.

I think that might like... ignite the atmosphere or something. Or destroy everything in an extremely large radius. Definitely the rider. That's hotter than the photosphere of the sun, dude.

It'll certainly do nasty things to whichever end of the Dragon it exits from. Hah! Had a dodgy curry, did it?

I think that might like... ignite the atmosphere or something. Or destroy everything in an extremely large radius. Definitely the rider. That's hotter than the photosphere of the sun, dude.I was just exagirating. Anyways I destroyed the army. I just said that so I could get people to come to my forum.:D

I was just exagirating. Anyways I destroyed the army. I just said that so I could get people to come to my forum.:D

Hyperbole is only your friend if people know you aren't serious! Or you're trying to make yourself seem cool. But chances are that'll backfire and people with laugh at you. :eek:

Hyperbole is only your friend if people know you aren't serious! Or you're trying to make yourself seem cool. But chances are that'll backfire and people with laugh at you. :eek:whos hyperbole

On the main continent of the world known as 'Cradle', dinosaurs did not go extinct. Over time one species (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/Engineer.jpg) developed high intelligence and eventually became avid genetic engineers. One of their creations was the dragon:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDinoSml.jpg

So! I'm putting a call out for comments and criticism on this design. Constructive criticism is preferred, but if you feel that this is a total abomination feel free to say so! All comments are welcome, on the idea, on the anatomy, on whether or not you like it and why... knock yourselves out.

My own comments on it currently are:
The wings are pretty bad, but I forgive myself that because it's the first time I've ever drawn wings seriously - as well as the first time I've drawn a dinosaur seriously - and wings are complicated.
The way this dragon is positioned, it would quite likely fall over from not being balanced properly.
I don't like the leg. There's something wrong with it. Somebody tell me what is wrong with that leg.

Larger version here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDino.jpg).

Also, feel free to ask questions.



I'm no artist myself but I go with the longer tail idea and suggest doing a counter balance on the foot such as claws on the back of the foot

whos hyperbole

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com)

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com)<hahaha>:D

I'm no artist myself but I go with the longer tail idea and suggest doing a counter balance on the foot such as claws on the back of the foot

Longer tail is a definite, though for the counter-balance, I'm sticking mainly with the 'raptor physique, so that wouldn't exist. However, the foot does need to be pulled back some to balance properly.

I dont get it. All yall do is describe some dragon

I dont get it. All yall do is describe some dragon

Yes. That is rather the point of this thread. Constructive criticism of my dragon design so that I might improve/perfect it.

Not to mention that the babbling about the how's and why's helps me figure out parts of the story behind it in ways I hadn't thought of previously.

I've done up a quick re-design of the dragon's head without references.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDragonHead.jpg

Better?

um, why are the wings mounted on the pelvis? Other than that pretty good drawing, although it is pretty much of a velociraptor with bird wings.

If you really want to know the answers to your questions read the rest of the thread. Or at least the first page. I think a fair bit of that is answered on the first page.

And technically it's more an utahraptor or megaraptor, with wings similar to that of a bird's but with a slightly different bone structure. Anyway!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDinoSml.jpg



i like the feathers. its "evolutionary"

i have problems imagining the underlying musculature of the wings though. with bird wings you have the pectoral muscles providing the force. on leg muscles they are on the legs. but legs cant "flap" and the increased muscle mass needed to lift both dragon and man would have a terrible leverage problem. so how do the underlying muscles work?

they would also need to be huge if they carry human riders. and the tail should be much longer. think of fancy kite tails.

If you really want to know the answers to your questions read the rest of the thread. Or at least the first page. I think a fair bit of that is answered on the first page.

And technically it's more an utahraptor or megaraptor, with wings similar to that of a bird's but with a slightly different bone structure. Anyway!

Sorry, I retract my post, I was being post-happy, and the moment I posted I realised this was probably already covered.

i like the feathers. its "evolutionary"

i have problems imagining the underlying musculature of the wings though. with bird wings you have the pectoral muscles providing the force. on leg muscles they are on the legs. but legs cant "flap" and the increased muscle mass needed to lift both dragon and man would have a terrible leverage problem. so how do the underlying muscles work?

they would also need to be huge if they carry human riders. and the tail should be much longer. think of fancy kite tails.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about muscles to have designed how they function exactly. My extent of thinking about muscles and extra bone and stuff extended only to consider the hump on the dragon's back, which is hidden by the protruding knee near the spine and the rest of the wing. I'm happy to leave that detail up to 'the engineers figured it out, somehow!' For now anyway.

Do you mean the wings or the dragon? The dragon is quite massive, it's head at 10 ft, and I'm planning to enlarge the wings some. The tail issue has also been seen to, and the main reason it was that short to start with was due to my running out of space. I'm also going to give it more archaeopteryx-styled tail plumage.

Sorry, I retract my post, I was being post-happy, and the moment I posted I realised this was probably already covered.

Ah, don't worry about it. I appreciate all comments, and thank you for the compliment.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about muscles to have designed how they function exactly. My extent of thinking about muscles and extra bone and stuff extended only to consider the hump on the dragon's back, which is hidden by the protruding knee near the spine and the rest of the wing. I'm happy to leave that detail up to 'the engineers figured it out, somehow!' For now anyway.

Do you mean the wings or the dragon? The dragon is quite massive, it's head at 10 ft, and I'm planning to enlarge the wings some. The tail issue has also been seen to, and the main reason it was that short to start with was due to my running out of space. I'm also going to give it more archaeopteryx-styled tail plumage.
i mean the wings. it takes alot of lift to carry a human on your back

maybe instead of doubling the legs, you should double the arms, extend the ribcage and have a second set of "pecs" in the middle of the beast. that way the wings can still be light, the pecs heavy, and no big leverage problem. that would give you room to put the sadle in front of the wings (better viewing that way) and perhaps the "arms" can be involved in holding it on or helping the rider in some other way (genetically engineered cup holders??)

personally, i like the wings of any mythical beast to be similar to wings found in nature, bird, bat or insect.

oh and i like the idea of the acheopteryx tail. itll make a cool look

Criticize this dragon?

That dragon is strangely shaped and visually displeasing.
This angers me.
Kroisistan smash.
...
*smash*

With a 4 legged dragon which also has wings, who says the rider has to ride on the back? How about more of a hang-glider style with a gondola below the dragon? Either that, or strapped, face down, close to the dragon's chest like a tandem parachute jump. That way the long, stout legs make sense (so that the dragon doesn't land ON the rider and crush him/her,) and the wings can be placed anywhere with no chance of the rider interfering with the wings' movement. It'd be easier to fire downwards too with spears or arrows as well and provide an unimpeded view ofthe ground Finally, any armor/shield the human wore would also protect the dragon's vulnerable underside.

A quick release cord would allow the dragon to hover and the human to drop off quickly too.

Certainly original.

With a 4 legged dragon which also has wings, who says the rider has to ride on the back? How about more of a hang-glider style with a gondola below the dragon? Either that, or strapped, face down, close to the dragon's chest like a tandem parachute jump. That way the long, stout legs make sense (so that the dragon doesn't land ON the rider and crush him/her,) and the wings can be placed anywhere with no chance of the rider interfering with the wings' movement. It'd be easier to fire downwards too with spears or arrows as well and provide an unimpeded view ofthe ground Finally, any armor/shield the human wore would also protect the dragon's vulnerable underside.

A quick release cord would allow the dragon to hover and the human to drop off quickly too.

Certainly original.

That's a very good idea, thankyou!

I'm not sure you could actually strap someone to the chest very well, at least not directly... but I'm sure something could be rigged up to hold a rider, especially since the dragon could either grasp something with it's hands or have something attached to the arms/hands... They might want to sheath the claws to prevent mishaps, including the ones on the feet.

query? does your dragon breathe fire?

if so, does it do it naturally, or through chemical injestion? (Anne McCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern)

If you do have them spouting fire, make sure the Feathers are fireproof. don't want one strong headwind and *Poof* frying chicken. :D

Are you including speech, intelligence, or any other Options?

query? does your dragon breathe fire?

if so, does it do it naturally, or through chemical injestion? (Anne McCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern)

If you do have them spouting fire, make sure the Feathers are fireproof. don't want one strong headwind and *Poof* frying chicken. :D

Are you including speech, intelligence, or any other Options?

They can't breath fire, no. However, the dragon's that end up on the smaller continent of the planet develop some magical abilities in the form of 'speaking' or 'singing' to the elements. This ability greatly improves upon their ability to fly as they can direct/redirect winds. It's a fairly limited ability in most dragons, but some individuals, known as dragon sages, can create serious effects, like singing up gale-force winds on a virtually windless day, or making a small spark into an inferno in moments. The really powerful sages can do the opposite. This also makes dragons great meteorologists!

The dragons are, or get to be quite intelligent, to the point that they have their own language and can, with difficulty, master some other languages (though they come out somewhat garbled). I'm not sure you would say they're as smart as humans, but I see it as a difficult comparison to make since the dragons don't really think in the same manner as humans.

With a 4 legged dragon which also has wings, who says the rider has to ride on the back? How about more of a hang-glider style with a gondola below the dragon? Either that, or strapped, face down, close to the dragon's chest like a tandem parachute jump. That way the long, stout legs make sense (so that the dragon doesn't land ON the rider and crush him/her,) and the wings can be placed anywhere with no chance of the rider interfering with the wings' movement. It'd be easier to fire downwards too with spears or arrows as well and provide an unimpeded view ofthe ground Finally, any armor/shield the human wore would also protect the dragon's vulnerable underside.

A quick release cord would allow the dragon to hover and the human to drop off quickly too.

Certainly original.
excellent concept! it would be quite unexpected by the reader.

one could still include reins that would go down rather than back, in order to steer the beast.

With a 4 legged dragon which also has wings, who says the rider has to ride on the back? How about more of a hang-glider style with a gondola below the dragon? Either that, or strapped, face down, close to the dragon's chest like a tandem parachute jump. That way the long, stout legs make sense (so that the dragon doesn't land ON the rider and crush him/her,) and the wings can be placed anywhere with no chance of the rider interfering with the wings' movement. It'd be easier to fire downwards too with spears or arrows as well and provide an unimpeded view ofthe ground Finally, any armor/shield the human wore would also protect the dragon's vulnerable underside.

A quick release cord would allow the dragon to hover and the human to drop off quickly too.

Certainly original.the only problem I have with an underslung riding gear is that should the dragon (injured or otherwise) fail a landing, the pilot risks being smeared between dragon and ground... especially when said dragon is landing and thus also moving forward.

the only problem I have with an underslung riding gear is that should the dragon (injured or otherwise) fail a landing, the pilot risks being smeared between dragon and ground... especially when said dragon is landing and thus also moving forward.

I find that image surprisingly amusing.

However, the dragon still has arms which it could use to steady itself, and it could be trained to fall over sideways in event of a bad landing... doesn't eliminate the the risk, but then few forms of transportation are riskless. Either way, riders probably wear a lot of padding and helmets.

another thing you need to consider is steering. a horse only move on the x-y axis. a flying creature moves on the x-y-z axes. your "reins" need to have a way of telling the creature to rise or fall in the air.


just something to think about

another thing you need to consider is steering. a horse only move on the x-y axis. a flying creature moves on the x-y-z axes. your "reins" need to have a way of telling the creature to rise or fall in the air.


just something to think about

Given that dragon's are quite intelligent, they can probably be trained to respond to auditory signals or so. Also, I'm thinking part of the harness could be a bar attached or grasped by the dragon that would basically go across the chest and under the arms of the rider. The dragon would notice if you titled the bar left or right and could bank accordingly. A turn would involving twisting the bar so one part goes further front. Other signals based on the bar could be possible, as well as the rider's hands being somewhat free, allowing them to hold something else, like reins, and then the rider would probably also be able to tap the dragon with their feet.

So there's a variety of possible steering options. As well, you could probably train a dragon to recognize locations, and then you could just tell them where to go and not have to actively guide them.

Ooohhh what a furry feathered chicken-legs dragon! Can I take it to add to my collection of dragons? :D

I'm lovin this dragon!

Three questions/criticisms though.

What do they eat, because an animal of that size would probably eat carcass' and therefore wuld probably have beaks, so they can get all the meat from the bones, unless thier stomachs can dissolve, or pass through, bones and other such material.

The second is that to control x-y-z axis movement, the handglider idea posted previously would work if you had the same type of mechanism that handgliders use. Voice commands would not work, as the dragon would presumably be travelling quite fast...

And finally, the dragon does not neccessarily need a longer tail, except for balance (which could be solved in the way the bottom of leg is designed.) It could use its legs to shift the weight balance from side to side, and the tail to control up and down.

On the main continent of the world known as 'Cradle', dinosaurs did not go extinct. Over time one species (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/Engineer.jpg) developed high intelligence and eventually became avid genetic engineers. One of their creations was the dragon:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDinoSml.jpg

So! I'm putting a call out for comments and criticism on this design. Constructive criticism is preferred, but if you feel that this is a total abomination feel free to say so! All comments are welcome, on the idea, on the anatomy, on whether or not you like it and why... knock yourselves out.

My own comments on it currently are:
The wings are pretty bad, but I forgive myself that because it's the first time I've ever drawn wings seriously - as well as the first time I've drawn a dinosaur seriously - and wings are complicated.
The way this dragon is positioned, it would quite likely fall over from not being balanced properly.
I don't like the leg. There's something wrong with it. Somebody tell me what is wrong with that leg.

Larger version here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDino.jpg).

Also, feel free to ask questions.


Well, the feathers do throw me, but then I just remember Archaeopteryx (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx/info.html). The thing that's really bothering me though... It has SIX limbs.

Ooohhh what a furry feathered chicken-legs dragon! Can I take it to add to my collection of dragons? :D

Sure! Though you might want to wait for the improved versions. :D

I'm lovin this dragon!

Three questions/criticisms though.

What do they eat, because an animal of that size would probably eat carcass' and therefore wuld probably have beaks, so they can get all the meat from the bones, unless thier stomachs can dissolve, or pass through, bones and other such material.

The second is that to control x-y-z axis movement, the handglider idea posted previously would work if you had the same type of mechanism that handgliders use. Voice commands would not work, as the dragon would presumably be travelling quite fast...

And finally, the dragon does not neccessarily need a longer tail, except for balance (which could be solved in the way the bottom of leg is designed.) It could use its legs to shift the weight balance from side to side, and the tail to control up and down.

I am assuming that like the species of raptor they are based on, they would eat other dinosaurs, or on the smaller continent, horses and deer and such. If dinosaurs did it, and wolves do it, I think this dragon can manage without a beak.

Voice commands maybe not, but the rider could still use a mixture of bar-movements, hand/rein commands and foot commands to get their message across.

I think the dragon might need a longer tail just to be able to stand properly.

Well, the feathers do throw me, but then I just remember Archaeopteryx (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx/info.html). The thing that's really bothering me though... It has SIX limbs.

It does, but that's because it isn't a naturally occuring organism.

This is all well and good, but can it go between?

This is all well and good, but can it go between?

Um... ah... Yes! No. Maybe. PIE!

This is all well and good, but can it go between?depends on how much of an Impression the rider has on his dragon.

Anybody commented yet that such a large creature wouldn't be able to fly?
At least not without a much denser atmosphere than earth, and some serious wing muscles (which seem to be absent from the drawing..)

Anybody commented yet that such a large creature wouldn't be able to fly?
At least not without a much denser atmosphere than earth, and some serious wing muscles (which seem to be absent from the drawing..)

Hasn't been commented on really, but I have thought about it. On the part of the drawing I realized that I need to make the wings a lot meatier. The one part of the wind without much plumage is little more than bone.

Story-wise, I had been thinking that the engineers that created the dragon were mainly mountain dwellers, so the dragons were more for gliding than long-distance flying, at which point I think I need to pick a different bird wing a a model... Later in the history of the dragon they gain the ability to 'converse' with the elements, allowing them to manipulate winds somewhat, making flight much easier.

Other than that, some suspension of disbelief is needed, as it is with most anything that involves dragons.

Story-wise, I had been thinking that the engineers that created the dragon were mainly mountain dwellers, so the dragons were more for gliding than long-distance flying, at which point I think I need to pick a different bird wing a a model... You could probably make good use of updrafts in the mountains.
Still, if you're designing your own world, I'd definitely consider making a heavier (thicker) atmosphere. (At least if ever pressed on the matter of how such large animals can fly in your world)

Other than that, some suspension of disbelief is needed, as it is with most anything that involves dragons.Unless you're going with fantasy (magic etc), I'd go for the best technobabble you can muster.

If you'd like to make work of it, http://www.levenspiel.com/octave/dinosaurs.htm might be helpfull. If not, well, it's still interesting :)

I said consummate V's! CONSUMMATE!!! Geez.

Guy wouldn't know majesty if it came up and bit him in the face.

You could probably make good use of updrafts in the mountains.
Still, if you're designing your own world, I'd definitely consider making a heavier (thicker) atmosphere. (At least if ever pressed on the matter of how such large animals can fly in your world)

Unless you're going with fantasy (magic etc), I'd go for the best technobabble you can muster.

Oh, it's most certainly a fantasy story. It's just that the main continent on which the dinosaur-men evolved and created the dinosaurs on wasn't particularly magical. The main continent actually isn't very important in the main story I have set in this world.

However, despite the fantasy aspects of the story, I still like to include a freakish amount of technobabble and pseudo-scientific stuff. Even when it comes to the nature of magic on this planet.

A thicker atmosphere would be heavier wouldn't it? Which would mean you'd expect organisms to develop squatter or something. Perhaps I could lower the gravity slightly too, so the atmosphere would be thicker but still weigh the same as our atmosphere...? Does that even work? If it did, wouldn't it make the dragons doubly more able to fly? I think I might be totally making this up.

If you'd like to make work of it, http://www.levenspiel.com/octave/dinosaurs.htm might be helpfull. If not, well, it's still interesting :)

Wah! Dude! Thanks for that! Sounds quite useful and interesting. *gets to reading it*

I said consummate V's! CONSUMMATE!!! Geez.

Guy wouldn't know majesty if it came up and bit him in the face.

:D

Well, you're certainly not on fire like a peasant!

A thicker atmosphere would be heavier wouldn't it?I'd expect so, you need a higher pressure at least, or (much) lower temperature.

Which would mean you'd expect organisms to develop squatter or something.I wouldn't necessarily expect that. I might change my mind after reading my new book though, which happens to be about what aliens might look like, based on scientific insights.

Perhaps I could lower the gravity slightly too, so the atmosphere would be thicker but still weigh the same as our atmosphere...? Does that even work?I think that might pose a problem. If you have less gravity, the planet has more trouble holding onto it's atmosphere (lighter molecules will fly off). You can compensate by using more of the heavier gasses, like CO2.
It'd be interesting to see if it can be worked out. How much would you like your dragon to weigh?

I think that might pose a problem. If you have less gravity, the planet has more trouble holding onto it's atmosphere (lighter molecules will fly off). You can compensate by using more of the heavier gasses, like CO2.
It'd be interesting to see if it can be worked out. How much would you like your dragon to weigh?
*nods*
heavier planet = thicker atmosphere
smaller planet = thinner atmosphere
c.f. mars with jupiter

I'd expect so, you need a higher pressure at least, or (much) lower temperature.

I wouldn't necessarily expect that. I might change my mind after reading my new book though, which happens to be about what aliens might look like, based on scientific insights.

I think that might pose a problem. If you have less gravity, the planet has more trouble holding onto it's atmosphere (lighter molecules will fly off). You can compensate by using more of the heavier gasses, like CO2.
It'd be interesting to see if it can be worked out. How much would you like your dragon to weigh?

Fuu... let's see here... Utahraptors weighed around 900 kilos and were 'bout 8 feet tall, and Megaraptor is estimated at somewhere 'round 12-14 feet tall, and somewhere between the weight of an Utahraptor and double that... Given that this dragon is about 10 feet tall, somewhere between 900 and 1800 kilos I guess?

Oh, by the way, what book is that? I've watched several progams with similar premises and found them quite interesting. I might want to check it out.

*nods*
heavier planet = thicker atmosphere
smaller planet = thinner atmosphere
c.f. mars with jupiter

Yeah, I knew their was a flaw in my thinking. Ah well! Back to the drawing board!

Oh, by the way, what book is that? I've watched several progams with similar premises and found them quite interesting. I might want to check it out.It's "What does a martian look like" by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. (It also exist under the name "Evolving the alien" but as a hardcover it cost twice as much, and the better name and hard cover isn't worth that much extra to me.)
They're both also co-authors of the 'Science of Discworld' books.

Yeah, I knew their was a flaw in my thinking. Ah well! Back to the drawing board!You can change the thickness of the atmosphere a bit aside from gravity though. Vulcanic eruptians can add to the atmosphere for example. And I think a higher temperature helps (at least you'll get more water vapor in the air).
After all, there have to be some mechanisms if earth supposedly had a 3 to 4 times higher atmospheric pressure 100 million years ago.

You can change the thickness of the atmosphere a bit aside from gravity though. Vulcanic eruptians can add to the atmosphere for example. And I think a higher temperature helps (at least you'll get more water vapor in the air).
After all, there have to be some mechanisms if earth supposedly had a 3 to 4 times higher atmospheric pressure 100 million years ago.
Pretty sure the pressure wasn't 4X higher. Mixture of gases might have been different. 100Ma isn't that long ago, atmospherically speaking.

Pretty sure the pressure wasn't 4X higher. Mixture of gases might have been different. 100Ma isn't that long ago, atmospherically speaking.Yeah, I'm not entirely sure about that 4X higher pressure either. But that was the suggestion on the site I linked to. And they have a decent number of references.
I wonder whether it's the pressure or the density that's important for lift. If the gas mixture stays the same it's equivalent, but with a different mixture you can get a higher density while keeping the pressure equal. And that's also much easier to influence.

*nods*
heavier planet = thicker atmosphere
smaller planet = thinner atmosphere
c.f. mars with jupiter

Venus is slightly smaller than the Earth but has a MUCH thicker atmosphere.

Fuu... let's see here... Utahraptors weighed around 900 kilos and were 'bout 8 feet tall, and Megaraptor is estimated at somewhere 'round 12-14 feet tall, and somewhere between the weight of an Utahraptor and double that... Given that this dragon is about 10 feet tall, somewhere between 900 and 1800 kilos I guess?

Oh, by the way, what book is that? I've watched several progams with similar premises and found them quite interesting. I might want to check it out.

The dragon would probably have bones like a bird...hollow but internally reinforced with a honeycomb pattern. That should save quite a bit of weight.)

Place the planet further from the sun, make the planet less dense but slightly larger. That way, surface gravity (even though the mass is greater,) is less because the surface is further from the center of the planet's gravity. Conversely, because there is greater total mass, effective gravity reaches outward further thereby being able to hold on to a greater depth of atmosphere, which should create more surface pressure. A higher column of air = greater weight/pressure on the surface. The planet is further from the sun so that the greater heat retention of the planet's atmosphere doesn't cause a runaway greenhouse effect.

Also, since the planet is further from the sun, it is less under the sway of solar weather (flares) which can act to strip atmosphere off of a planet...yet another factor that will allow the planet to have a thicker atmosphere without adding to surface gravity.

The dragon would probably have bones like a bird...hollow but internally reinforced with a honeycomb pattern. That should save quite a bit of weight.)

Place the planet further from the sun, make the planet less dense but slightly larger. That way, surface gravity (even though the mass is greater,) is less because the surface is further from the center of the planet's gravity. Conversely, because there is greater total mass, effective gravity reaches outward further thereby being able to hold on to a greater depth of atmosphere, which should create more surface pressure. A higher column of air = greater weight/pressure on the surface. The planet is further from the sun so that the greater heat retention of the planet's atmosphere doesn't cause a runaway greenhouse effect.

Also, since the planet is further from the sun, it is less under the sway of solar weather (flares) which can act to strip atmosphere off of a planet...yet another factor that will allow the planet to have a thicker atmosphere without adding to surface gravity.

I recall reading that the dromaeosaurs, the group that includes utahraptor and megaraptor already had hollow bones, so I'd assume that's included when considering possble weights already.

Thanks for the planet information! Taking in that, as well as the fact that I was planning on the planet being warmer than ours overall in general, so all that together could make for quite a bit denser of an atmosphere, I think. If that wouldn't be enough, I could consider changing the composition of the atmosphere slightly to include more heavier gases...

Then again, the atmosphere doesn't need to be greatly more dense, given that the dragons still could have been designed mainly for gliding in the mountains.

Seriously, a big thankyou to everyone helping me. I do like the things I create to be as correct as possible within certain bounds.

I recall reading that the dromaeosaurs, the group that includes utahraptor and megaraptor already had hollow bones, so I'd assume that's included when considering possble weights already.

Thanks for the planet information! Taking in that, as well as the fact that I was planning on the planet being warmer than ours overall in general, so all that together could make for quite a bit denser of an atmosphere, I think. If that wouldn't be enough, I could consider changing the composition of the atmosphere slightly to include more heavier gases...

Then again, the atmosphere doesn't need to be greatly more dense, given that the dragons still could have been designed mainly for gliding in the mountains.

Seriously, a big thankyou to everyone helping me. I do like the things I create to be as correct as possible within certain bounds.

Just an addendum. If you go with my bigger/less dense planet, I think that would tend to dampen volcanic activity, so a big moon(s) tidal forces would be needed to goose the volcanic activity up towards atmosphere-thickening levels.

It's "What does a martian look like" by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. (It also exist under the name "Evolving the alien" but as a hardcover it cost twice as much, and the better name and hard cover isn't worth that much extra to me.)
They're both also co-authors of the 'Science of Discworld' books.

Damn, looks like it's going to be difficult to get that. The library has neither version, Chapters only seems to know about "What Does A Martian Look Like", but that's out of stock. Ah well...

Just an addendum. If you go with my bigger/less dense planet, I think that would tend to dampen volcanic activity, so a big moon(s) tidal forces would be needed to goose the volcanic activity up towards atmosphere-thickening levels.

Ooh, thanks. Though I may actually have another way of causing volcanic activity in the form of the anomoly/anomolaies that cause 'magic' in specific locations on the planet. The fantasy has to fuse with the 'reality' at some point...

Who knows, I'll pick which one I'll use eventually. Possibly both.

Venus is slightly smaller than the Earth but has a MUCH thicker atmosphere.


and a surface temperature of 800F

and a surface temperature of 800F

True, but my point was that size isn't the only factor when it comes to atmosphere-retention.

Palms should face inwards, not backwards.

Palms should face inwards, not backwards.

Why would you say that? Searching the internet, it has dromaeosaurs having hands that face mainly backwards. Heck, even with humans, are palms only face inward naturally if our arms are by our sides. If you bring your arms up parallel to the ground and straight in front of you, as long as you keep your wrists limp, the palms will face the ground. Pull yours elbows in to the body and your palms face your chest.

Beyond that, the dragons palms are turned in slightly, just mainly to the back.

Here's the new version:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDragonSml.jpg

Full version. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Chimeran/SFDragon.jpg)

Pick away, please! I think the wings might still be too small... poo. Possibly the tail is too short as well, though I'm not sure.

EDIT: Sorry for it going off the screen.

Bah. I feel stupid bumping this, but I do still want feedback on the new version. I'll probably only do this once.

That's lookin good. Yeah, maybe beef up the wings a bit more, and possibly more muscles on the torso (not entirely sure how, though). Is that tail movable, or stiff? Definitely seems more balanced.

That's lookin good. Yeah, maybe beef up the wings a bit more, and possibly more muscles on the torso (not entirely sure how, though). Is that tail movable, or stiff? Definitely seems more balanced.

Yeah, the small wings were a result of me still trying to figure out bird wings at the time I was drawing. I'm not entirely sure how to make the torse more muscular either, especially since I'm not entirely sure what's muscle and what isn't on the torso as it is.

The base is flexible, but it's mostly stiffened. I'm not sure how much of the better balance is from the tail, and how much is because the legs are positioned better.

maybe your dragon shouldn't have front arms:
- more place for muscles
- reduced weight
- i think it would be easier to geneticaly engeneer wings out of front arms instead of adding a third pelvis or something
- more room for the passenger (if you are still going to place him under the dragon instead of on top of it)

maybe your dragon shouldn't have front arms:
- more place for muscles
- reduced weight
- i think it would be easier to geneticaly engeneer wings out of front arms instead of adding a third pelvis or something
- more room for the passenger (if you are still going to place him under the dragon instead of on top of it)

Arm-wings would probably be easier, but honestly, leg-wings just amuse me greatly. Also, I like the dragon having arms. Though I could probably manage both... but eh! And this way, the arms are part of carrying the passenger.

Definitely have to beef up the supporting muscles for the wings. Even if they're legs, not arms, something similar to pectoral muscles with a BIG breastbone have to be beneath them for the dragon to be able to sweep it's wings downward.

Definitely have to beef up the supporting muscles for the wings. Even if they're legs, not arms, something similar to pectoral muscles with a BIG breastbone have to be beneath them for the dragon to be able to sweep it's wings downward.

How would I pull off showing that? If the wings were at the shoulders I could use the breastbone and such, modelling off birds, but when they're placed slightly forward of the hips, I don't really have any references to work off of. Any ideas?

How would I pull off showing that? If the wings were at the shoulders I could use the breastbone and such, modelling off birds, but when they're placed slightly forward of the hips, I don't really have any references to work off of. Any ideas?

A rippled band of muscle attached to the end of an extended breastbone. See if you can do image searches for frontview pictures of bats in flight.

A rippled band of muscle attached to the end of an extended breastbone. See if you can do image searches for frontview pictures of bats in flight.

I think I might get what you're going for, but I'm not sure. Do you think you could try a sketch? Nothing spectacular needed, just lines and geometric shapes represent like... ribcage, collar bone, wings, maybe the general shape of muscles. That's only if you feel like it though.

However, might it work to turn a set of ribs into a secondary collarbone that would attach to the wings at some point? Though that's something you might not even see, depending on how fleshy the dragon's stomach is...