NationStates Jolt Archive

The first correct answer out of the khaffiya wins a one way ticket to Gitmo.
Once we figure out what the correct answer is...

1) Fatah is corrupt. Much of the money they get from the international community goes into their Swiss bank accounts.

2) Many Palestinians actually want to see Israel wiped off the map and Jews exterminated.

3) Hamas runs clinics and schools and donates food to the poor. Sure the schools teach the extermination of the Jews, but to the Palestinians that doesn't necessarily count as a negative.

Because Hamas hired a PR firm to help them with their image, and in fact, lied about their stated goals during the campaign. They may be a scumbag terrorist organization, but I must admit they're gettin damn good at politics.

the palestinians were in desperate need of a change and hamas offered what seemed to be a reasonable alternative. im sure that many palestinians also admire their dedication to the cause of destroying israel even if they dont personally support it (or at least not support it enough to put their own lives on the line. most probably believe that if israel fell all their problems would be over)

there is some small chance that hamas will step up to the plate and do the right thing by the people who elected them. that is more of a chance than they had with fatah who stole most of the international aid money that was supposed to improve the lives of the palestinians.

According to a news report of interviews with Palestinian voters, they were frustrated with the corruption and ineffectiveness of Al Fata.

1) Fatah is corrupt. Much of the money they get from the international community goes into their Swiss bank accounts.
Only partly true. The rest of the money goes to their already-rich high-ranked members.

2) Many Palestinians actually want to see Israel wiped off the map and Jews exterminated.
Could you quantify "many"? While we're at it:
2) Many Americans actually want to see Israel wiped off the map and Jews exterminated.
Most of them are members of the White Supremacy League or some other obscure groupe.

3) Hamas runs clinics and schools and donates food to the poor. Sure the schools teach the extermination of the Jews, but to the Palestinians that doesn't necessarily count as a negative.
Then again, wrong. Way to distort facts. The Hamas was once meant as a rather moderate left-wing group, seeking a peaceful arrangement with Israel. They have been deceived so many times that their base just turned more and more radical in the past decade or so.

By the way, nobody teaches the extermination of the Jews in such schools. War against Israel, sure thing. But always backed with historic facts. Moreover, they insist that there is also other possibilities, teaching the children a "balanced" point of view.

I would like to know where you get your "facts", Drunken Commie. If possible, to back them with sources. I have been in Palestine for 6 months, teaching foreign languages / history at a school in a remote village. I was also there as an international peace activist and have been detained illegally by the fascist israelite army for more than 3 weeks.

Note: There is a major difference between saying that "Israel should be wiped off the map" and saying that "Jews should be exterminated".

The most important reason, as far as I can see, was the welfare programs. Hamas is doing a lot to help the poors, and even many of those who don't agree with the Hamas did vote for them because of that. Remember that 70% of Palestinian are below the poverty level, thanks to occupation and its consequences.

Then, there is the fact that while the Fatah accepted a lot (they accepted to have only 22% of what was once the Palestine, ...), Israel didn't do much for peace, continuing the colonization, the building of the (illegal) wall and the frequent bombing/razing/... So many palestinian don't trust negocations with Israel anymore. By not respecting the Oslo agrement, and all the ones afterwards, Israel put the Fatah, who signed them, in a very difficult situation.

And then there is the fact that the Fatah has corruption problems, true.

Anyway, the primary reason is the disastrous situation into which Palestine is nowadays, and the lack of hope of a peaceful solution soon. And that's thanks to the policies of Ariel Sharon. And sadly, it leaded to extremists like the Hamas into power, which will make the situation even worse... :(

Only partly true. The rest of the money goes to their already-rich high-ranked members.


Could you quantify "many"? While we're at it:

Most of them are members of the White Supremacy League or some other obscure groupe.


Then again, wrong. Way to distort facts. The Hamas was once meant as a rather moderate left-wing group, seeking a peaceful arrangement with Israel. They have been deceived so many times that their base just turned more and more radical in the past decade or so.

By the way, nobody teaches the extermination of the Jews in such schools. War against Israel, sure thing. But always backed with historic facts. Moreover, they insist that there is also other possibilities, teaching the children a "balanced" point of view.

I would like to know where you get your "facts", Drunken Commie. If possible, to back them with sources. I have been in Palestine for 6 months, teaching foreign languages / history at a school in a remote village. I was also there as an international peace activist and have been detained illegally by the fascist israelite army for more than 3 weeks.
My facts come from Hamas' own charter. They seek to destroy Israel. They take the teaching that the in the final days Muslims will fight with the Jews and kill them very literally.

Because Fatah is so corrupt and incompetent, and it's either them or Hamas.

We will kill Jews everywhere. There will be no security for any Jews, those who came from America, Russia or anywhere.(Chicago Tribune July 23, 2002.)

That was said by Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a Hamas leader. Yeah, they're willing to coexist with Jews. Right.

2) Many Palestinians actually want to see Israel wiped off the map and Jews exterminated.
3) Hamas runs clinics and schools and donates food to the poor. Sure the schools teach the extermination of the Jews, but to the Palestinians that doesn't necessarily count as a negative.
I'm sorry, Drunken Commie, but you failed to respond to what I said. Never in the thirty-six articles of the Covenant (Hamas Charter) do they say that "the Hamas-founded schools teach the extermination of the Jews", less that Palestinian doesn't necessarily count (that) as a negative point. Where did you find that a majority of Palestinian (as implied by that precedent generality) would like to see the Jews exterminated, or would be pleased by such a thing?

My other question to you: could you quantify "Many"? That way, you could avoid the spread of fallacious generalities.

Edit: Please take good note that a comment made by one member of the organization doesn't necessarily reflect the opinion of ALL members, much less of the palestinian people. By the way, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi died in 2004.

I'm sorry, Drunken Commie, but you failed to respond to what I said. Never in the thirty-six articles of the Covenant (Hamas Charter) do they say that "the Hamas-founded schools teach the extermination of the Jews", less that Palestinian doesn't necessarily count (that) as a negative point. Where did you find that a majority of Palestinian (as implied by that precedent generality) would like to see the Jews exterminated, or would be pleased by such a thing?

My other question to you: could you quantify "Many"? That way, you could avoid the spread of fallacious generalities.
Palestinian textbooks teach murderous hate of Jews.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=94&x_context=2

As for Palestinian support for killing Jews, well it's pretty obvious. The suicide bombers are venerated as heroes for killing working people and families. Few Palestinians are ever heard denouncing them and most of those are politicians who need to keep those donations coming in.

Tderjeckistan, I don't expect you to ever agree or to ever stop covering for the murderous Hamas terrorists. You've clearly already picked your side, as have I. There have been Israeli terrorists, like Baruch Goldstein. There have been acts of hate from Israelis toward Palestinians, like the vandalism of Palestinian olive crops. Still, Israel has much less innocent blood on it's hands than the Palestinians.

Yeah well two nights ago I watched a documentary on "The Passionate Eye" wherein orthodox Israeli parents matter-of-factly referred to Palestinians as 'Godless vermin', being 'not even Human', and deserving of being 'completely wiped out' - and these things were said in front of their own small children, no less - so I'd say it kinda cuts both ways, don'tcha think DCD?

You really feel comfortable taking sides in all this? I sure as Hell don't. One wonders how one can, what with all the blackhearted hatred flowing freely.

There have been acts of hate from Israelis toward Palestinians, like the vandalism of Palestinian olive crops. Still, Israel has much less innocent blood on it's hands than the Palestinians.
Like the vandalism? Oh god. And what about the dozens of thousands of Palestinians detained illegally by Israel? What about the refugee camps, a lot of them existing since 40 years? And the hundred of thousands of arab people who live there, with no job, in miserable conditions because of the Israeli occupation? Not to mention the murders, rapes, beatings and the psychological effects that 40 years of occupation has on a "collective mind".

I was pro-Oslo (1993 arrangements) but the Israeli didn't respect it. I was pro-Arafat when he gave more concessions to the greedy Israelian state and yet, it wasn't enough for them and your imperialist government. All we hear in the news is a suicide bomber every two weeks and "the horror". Yes, it's horrific. No, I do not stand for that practice. But I don't think that a poor guy just thought: "oh, gawd, it would be great if I could blew myself in a jewish cafe today". No job, no future, his wife getting raped by israeli soldiers and misery all around him, nothing to look at, etc.: that's the problem. Occupation is the problem and Iraq is slowly becoming a second Palestine, a terrorist training camp thanks to your imperialist policies/friends.

So yes, I think that Israel has much more blood on its hands than any other arab community.

Note: I'll start taking "CAMERA" as an objective source when they won't do such great accurate cover:
Prejudice is deplored in stories and anecdotes. Arab traditions are presented as admirable and Arab people as good human beings with feelings like those of Jews. Hearts, flowers and doves decorate books about getting along with Arab neighbors.
What do the Palestinian schools teach? Ninth-graders study from official textbooks that assert, "treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and therefore one should beware of them." Jews are cast as Satanic, violent and cunning, as "thieving conquerors" who have stolen Arab land and must be fought and defeated.
Then again, that story comes from 1999 and is completly biaised. I repeat what I've said: from the six months I've spent teaching in Palestine, never did I see anything like that.

Also, DrunkenCommie, you didn't respond to me:
Where did you find that a majority of Palestinian (as implied by that precedent generality) would like to see the Jews exterminated, or would be pleased by such a thing?

My other question to you: could you quantify "Many"? That way, you could avoid the spread of fallacious generalities.
Thanks.

Edit: Last message of the day for me. Out. Take care and have fun "debating" on the forums, guys and gals :P

Like the vandalism? Oh god. And what about the dozens of thousands of Palestinians detained illegally by Israel? What about the refugee camps, a lot of them existing since 40 years? And the hundred of thousands of arab people who live there, with no job, in miserable conditions because of the Israeli occupation? Not to mention the murders, rapes, beatings and the psychological effects that 40 years of occupation has on a "collective mind".

I was pro-Oslo (1993 arrangements) but the Israeli didn't respect it. I was pro-Arafat when he gave more concessions to the greedy Israelian state and yet, it wasn't enough for them and your imperialist government. All we hear in the news is a suicide bomber every two weeks and "the horror". Yes, it's horrific. No, I do not stand for that practice. But I don't think that a poor guy just thought: "oh, gawd, it would be great if I could blew myself in a jewish cafe today". No job, no future, his wife getting raped by israeli soldiers and misery all around him, nothing to look at, etc.: that's the problem. Occupation is the problem and Iraq is slowly becoming a second Palestine, a terrorist training camp thanks to your imperialist policies/friends.

So yes, I think that Israel has much more blood on its hands than any other arab community.

Note: I'll start taking "CAMERA" as an objective source when they won't do such great accurate cover:


Then again, that story comes from 1999 and is completly biaised. I repeat what I've said: from the six months I've spent teaching in Palestine, never did I see anything like that.

Also, DrunkenCommie, you didn't respond to me:

Thanks.
Palestinians don't live in refugee camps because of the Israelis. They live in refugee camps because they got out of the way of the advancing Arab armies in the 1948 war so that those armies could more easily wipe out the Jews. Some were kicked out, but most left voluntarily. They're refugees because their fellow Jordanian arabs (remember there was never a nation of palestine, only a region called palestine in Trans-Jordan) refused to take them. They're only considered refugees to this day because the UN made up a sepecial definition of refugee status that only applies to Palestinians.

I'd like to see some evidence from you that Palestinians are being illegaly jailed by Israel.

Arafat was offered a good peace proposal. He turned it down because he insisted on right of return. If right of return is granted Israel is done for. It would be conquered by Palestinian demographics. That's why the terrorist Arafat insisted on it.

Israel has much less blood on it's hands. It uses targeted killing to destroy terrorists, not suicide bombings to kill random civilians. Israelis aren't known for ambushing carloads of civilians and gunning them down.

You make claims that Israelis are guilty of raping Palestinian women. Back it up with some statistics. I don't buy widespread rape of Palestinian women by Israeli soldiers. Israeli soldiers tend to be well disciplined.

It's a fact that Palestinians make up attrocities to win sympathy from people like you. Look at the "massacre" in Jenin.

Lets remember that though Hamas funds charities and so on, some of that money has actually come from UN orginizations that have been operating in a vacuum of social activity. I find it sad. And do not forget that money makes the world go round - no international money, no palestinian government period.

Why did USians vote for Bush? Some election results are just stupid.

Why did USians vote for Bush? Some election results are just stupid.
The greatest downfall of democracy is stupidity and corruption. OK, the two greatest downfalls of democracy are stupidity and corruption, and propaganda. OK, among the greatest downfalls of democracy are stupidity, corruption, and propaganda.

Why did USians vote for Bush? Some election results are just stupid.
Bear in mind only slightly less than half of them did. But that's okay; he only leads the ones who voted for him anyway.

Why did USians vote for Bush? Some election results are just stupid.I feel so eddified. Election results are stupid!

I suggest that election results reflect a complex, serious political/social climate and should be taken seriously. There's nothing fatalistic or shruggable about the fate of a large group of people.

I feel so eddified. Election results are stupid!

I suggest that election results reflect a complex, serious political/social climate and should be taken seriously. There's nothing fatalistic or shruggable about the fate of a large group of people.

And then sometimes people just vote stupid.

Israelis aren't known for ambushing carloads of civilians and gunning them down.


Isrealis aren't known for their "terrorist" (terrorist in quotes since its such a buzz word and i really dont even think we have a clear definition for it anymore) actions because the US has some weird unspoken agreement and preference for Isreal over Palestine. Atrocities are committed by both sides--who does it more or first doesn't matter; what matters is that innocent people are dying on both sides of the situation. And when it comes down to it, the foundation of the Isreali Nation took Palastinian lands.

If Canada suddenly went "oh hey, by the way, we're taking washington and montana" we wouldn't be too happy about it either!

. There have been acts of hate from Israelis toward Palestinians, like the vandalism of Palestinian olive crops. Still, Israel has much less innocent blood on it's hands than the Palestinians.

10% of the agricultural land in Gaza before the pullout had been bulldozed by the Israelis. Thats not Vandalism, thats a policy of abuse. As for "more innocent blood" there are four times the number of Palestinian dead to Israeli and nearly 5 times in children under 18. There are no Palestinian tanks in Tel Aviv, or Palestinian bulldozers at work in Israel proper.

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Palestinians don't live in refugee camps because of the Israelis. They live in refugee camps because they got out of the way of the advancing Arab armies in the 1948 war so that those armies could more easily wipe out the Jews..

A lie. Pure and simple.
.
They're refugees because their fellow Jordanian arabs (remember there was never a nation of palestine, only a region called palestine in Trans-Jordan) refused to take them. ..

Another lie. Jordanians have become a minority in their own country due to the numbers they took in. Not all fled to Jordan - many went to Lebanon or Syria and Egypt.

For stats on the Jordanian population see here.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/jo.html

You can explain to me how "if they're all the same" the Jordanians could tell who was pretending to be a Palestinian and who was Jordanian (and vice versa). You can also explain how they have conned the CIA and everybody else for thirty years.

.
It uses targeted killing to destroy terrorists, not suicide bombings to kill random civilians. Israelis aren't known for ambushing carloads of civilians and gunning them down. ..

Really? Please explain these three incidents then........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5032526-103552,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1128176,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3728681.stm

And why would somebody use suicide bombs to liberate their country when they have (a) a modern army and (b) no occupier to liberate their country from?

Isrealis aren't known for their "terrorist" (terrorist in quotes since its such a buzz word and i really dont even think we have a clear definition for it anymore) actions because the US has some weird unspoken agreement and preference for Isreal over Palestine. Atrocities are committed by both sides--who does it more or first doesn't matter; what matters is that innocent people are dying on both sides of the situation. And when it comes down to it, the foundation of the Isreali Nation took Palastinian lands.

If Canada suddenly went "oh hey, by the way, we're taking washington and montana" we wouldn't be too happy about it either!
I think who does it more or first matters alot.

The Israelis bought much of the land, and many of the Palestinians left during the 1948 war. I'll grant that many of the settlements are stolen land, but most of Israel is legitimately a Jewish state.

Oh, and the Jews didn't take Israel, it was given to them by the UN.

Sept 1, 1947 UNSCOP issues its report, calling for partition of Palestine.
Nov. 29, 1947 UN Partition Resolution (GA 181) - Palestine was to be divided into a Jewish State and an Arab State; Jerusalem was to be internationalized. The resolution is supported by both the US and USSR. Arab countries and Arab league refuse to recognize the resolution.

10% of the agricultural land in Gaza before the pullout had been bulldozed by the Israelis. Thats not Vandalism, thats a policy of abuse. As for "more innocent blood" there are four times the number of Palestinian dead to Israeli and nearly 5 times in children under 18. There are no Palestinian tanks in Tel Aviv, or Palestinian bulldozers at work in Israel proper.

50% of the Palestinian population is under 15 - so yeah.
Also, the Guardian is full of shit. Find yourself some real sources. In any event, I don't think there's much point pointing at each other and shouting NO!! YOU'RE WORSE!!. It's just lame. The point is, The palestinians have a government that remains comitted to Israel's destruction and nbeither side will recognize the other. Improving that sutuation is what matters.

10% of the agricultural land in Gaza before the pullout had been bulldozed by the Israelis. Thats not Vandalism, thats a policy of abuse. As for "more innocent blood" there are four times the number of Palestinian dead to Israeli and nearly 5 times in children under 18. There are no Palestinian tanks in Tel Aviv, or Palestinian bulldozers at work in Israel proper.
Does children under 18 count 16 and 17 year old terrorists?


A lie. Pure and simple. So what's the truth? Got a site to back it up?


Another lie. Jordanians have become a minority in their own country due to the numbers they took in. Not all fled to Jordan - many went to Lebanon or Syria and Egypt. OK, show me the difference, culturally or genetically, between Jordanians and Palestinians.

For stats on the Jordanian population see here.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/jo.html

You can explain to me how "if they're all the same" the Jordanians could tell who was pretending to be a Palestinian and who was Jordanian (and vice versa). You can also explain how they have conned the CIA and everybody else for thirty years.



Really? Please explain these three incidents then........

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5032526-103552,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1128176,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3728681.stm

And why would somebody use suicide bombs to liberate their country when they have (a) a modern army and (b) no occupier to liberate their country from?

First link doesn't work. Also note that I haven't said that Israel's hands were clean, just cleaner than those of the Palestinians. I could post literally hundreds of news stories about suicide bombers and Palestinian gunmen indiscriminately killing civilians.

Israel is faced with enemies who want to eradicate them. For the most part they do show restraint in dealing with those enemies. They could, if they wanted to, pretty much wipe out the Palestinians. Instead they mostly assassinate the terrorists themselves, like they did with Sheik Yassin.

I think who does it more or first matters alot.

The Israelis bought much of the land, and many of the Palestinians left during the 1948 war. I'll grant that many of the settlements are stolen land, but most of Israel is legitimately a Jewish state.

Oh, and the Jews didn't take Israel, it was given to them by the UN.

See, whenever people talk about the Isreali-Palestinian conflict, they always start referring to Isrealis as "Jews," which leads me to believe that to some people this is about more than land-rights, but about religious domination. I am Jewish, but that doesn't mean that I have suddenly lost the ability to reason or recognize property rights.

I know that Isreal was given to the ISREALIS by the UN, but that does not mean that it is right. The Mississippian area was sold to the US by the French, but that does not mean that it was right. That does not mean that it was their land to barter, sell, or give. In the end, the Isreali state is a false-state. They are there now, and everyone has to deal with that. Just like the descendents of Europeans are in The Americas now. From the indigenous perspective, we are not here rightfully. They fought American expansion, would you consider them terrorists?

They obviously want terrorism. Even if Fatah is corrupt, there were other parties.

Does children under 18 count 16 and 17 year old terrorists?

No, it refers to civillians,


So what's the truth? Got a site to back it up?


It is you who made the false assertion. If there was evidence of it, then we wouldnt be having this discussion. You made the claim, which goes against accepted historical fact (and reason). You should back it up.


OK, show me the difference, culturally or genetically, between Jordanians and Palestinians.


Names, dress, accent, customs...by the way, why don't you believe the CIA website? just as a matter of interest. Why do you think they think theres a difference worth noting..are they in it with the A-rabs?



First link doesn't work.


Its fixed now


Also note that I haven't said that Israel's hands were clean, just cleaner than those of the Palestinians. I could post literally hundreds of news stories about suicide bombers and Palestinian gunmen indiscriminately killing civilians.


But you could miss the point that theres far more Palestinians dead than Israelis and the fact that its Israel thats occupying them, and not the other way around


Oh, and the Jews didn't take Israel, it was given to them by the UN.


The area that now comprises the state of Israel is far larger than that orginally envisaged in the UN partition, but three years after the holocaust nobody had the heart to reverse the situation.


Also, the Guardian is full of shit. Find yourself some real sources.


Should you look up the incidents you'll note that the circumstances are the same, and most importantly (and unfortunately) the people still dead.