NationStates Jolt Archive

ai'ight, I don't want amature opinions on this, only answers from people who have studies law, are cops, or some other qualification to knowledge.

I chain myself to the White House fence from the outside. How long untill they bolt cutter me lose and drag me away? Do I do jail time? How much?

Same questions for chaining myself to a tree or post outside the fence, or accross the street from it?

ai'ight, I don't want amature opinions on this, only answers from people who have studies law, are cops, or some other qualification to knowledge.

I chain myself to the White House fence from the outside. How long untill they bolt cutter me lose and drag me away? Do I do jail time? How much?

Same questions for chaining myself to a tree or post outside the fence, or accross the street from it?

As long as you do not verbally or physically threaten the President in any way:

If you don't have a media Circus with you, you wil be cut lose and arrested relatively quickly (under 1/2 hour, probably within 10 minutes). You will be charged with a misdomenor and your sentance will largely be based on your attitude with the Judge.

You could always email MoveOn.org for first-hand details, or, save yourself the trouble and just ask the Secret Service, then show up to be handcuffed. :rolleyes:

and if I have a media circus with me?

What's the very least, very worst, and most likely thing a judge will sentence me to if I am respectful and apologetic?

You should wait til Cat Tribes is on. He should be able to provide you with some good info.

and if I have a media circus with me?

What's the very least, very worst, and most likely thing a judge will sentence me to if I am respectful and apologetic?
If you are going to be respectful and apologetic, why do it?

First rule of Protesting: If you are serious, you don't apologise.

You should wait til Cat Tribes is on. He should be able to provide you with some good info.

when does he usully come on around? I accully made this thread with him in mind.

If you are going to be respectful and apologetic, why do it?

To the judge I will be. I still wanna attract attention, inspire others to action. That's the main point of this.

But I really don't want to debate over weather or not I should do it, or if it will work, whatever, I was looking to have some questions answered beforehand, and this forum contains several fonts of legal info.

A fine or suspended sentence is the most likely outcome. Wait for Cat Tribe though, as I only have knowledge of Australian and Commonwealth law.

ai'ight, I don't want amature opinions on this, only answers from people who have studies law, are cops, or some other qualification to knowledge.

I chain myself to the White House fence from the outside. How long untill they bolt cutter me lose and drag me away? Do I do jail time? How much?

Same questions for chaining myself to a tree or post outside the fence, or accross the street from it?
To the White House fence, you wouldn't even get set up.

To a tree, you might get a fine for disfiguring a tree in city limits or something. But make sure to leave if they tell you, or you will get to spend a night in the po-po house.

I would talk with a civil rights lawyer, and get representation before you attempt anything.

ai'ight, I don't want amature opinions on this, only answers from people who have studies law, are cops, or some other qualification to knowledge.

I chain myself to the White House fence from the outside. How long untill they bolt cutter me lose and drag me away? Do I do jail time? How much?

Same questions for chaining myself to a tree or post outside the fence, or accross the street from it?

I honestly believe that the only thing they can really nail you with it loitering.

Possible a disfigurement of property (don't scratch the paint on the fence).

Both crimes (in my state at least) carry varying penalties, but nothing outrageous. Maybe a hundred dollar fine, tops.

Now, there may be a charge of terrorism or something. Then you'd be knee-deep in shit. Not the good kind of shit either.

To the judge I will be.THen your "point" will not be made, and you will be seen as hypocritical. I still wanna attract attention, inspire others to action. That's the main point of this.And getting arrested for the sake of getting arrested does this how?
But I really don't want to debate over weather or not I should do it, or if it will work, whatever, I was looking to have some questions answered beforehand, and this forum contains several fonts of legal info.
Well, Cat is a California Lawyer and yours is a DC Jurisdictional matter. While he will be able to do the Nexus search for you to cite the statute, it will still come down to the Judge of the day and your actions/attitude at the time of arrest & trial.

Really, you need to ask someone like MoveOn to connect you with other people who have done the same thing.

I would talk with a civil rights lawyer, and get representation before you attempt anything.

Great idea, I'll contact the DC/MoCo ACLU branch

I'd find a better way of making my point. If you even succeed in getting yourself chained to the fence (or even a nearby item), you'd only be there for the time it took for boltcutters to be brought out to your location. Not really enough time for any attention to be brought to any cause you're trying to champion. Also keep in mind you could be incarcerated for up to 72 hours before you're even arraigned.

ai'ight, I don't want amature opinions on this, only answers from people who have studies law, are cops, or some other qualification to knowledge.

I chain myself to the White House fence from the outside. How long untill they bolt cutter me lose and drag me away? Do I do jail time? How much?

Same questions for chaining myself to a tree or post outside the fence, or accross the street from it?

I just finished a semester of AP US Government in high school, and I think I may remember some relevent information in between naps ...

You have the civil liberty to protest on public property, guaranteed by the First Amendment. There may be some sort of local regulation that might require you to get a permit to do something such as block traffic, but any local law will still allow you the right to protest. You may not, of course, threaten the President of the United States. You may be arrested (or shot, but I doubt it) if the Secret Service or police consider you a danger.

The good news there is that any kind of police action against you will almost certainly not hold up in court, if you are unarmed and make no threatening statements or actions and remain on public property (I'm sure you will have plenty of witnesses). You can't really be sure if you will be arrested or not, there are legal precedents either way.

I just finished a semester of AP US Government in high school, and I think I may remember some relevent information in between naps ...

You have the civil liberty to protest on public property, guaranteed by the First Amendment. There may be some sort of local regulation that might require you to get a permit to do something such as block traffic, but any local law will still allow you the right to protest. You may not, of course, threaten the President of the United States. You may be arrested (or shot, but I doubt it) if the Secret Service or police consider you a danger.

The good news there is that any kind of police action against you will almost certainly not hold up in court, if you are unarmed and make no threatening statements or actions and remain on public property (I'm sure you will have plenty of witnesses). You can't really be sure if you will be arrested or not, there are legal precedents either way.
Rights are great until they conflict with laws.

when does he usully come on around? I accully made this thread with him in mind.

He used to be mostly daytime but I havent seen a lot of him lately....which is a shame.

I'd find a better way of making my point. If you even succeed in getting yourself chained to the fence (or even a nearby item), you'd only be there for the time it took for boltcutters to be brought out to your location. Not really enough time for any attention to be brought to any cause you're trying to champion. Also keep in mind you could be incarcerated for up to 72 hours before you're even arraigned.

Well, you could use a really big chain :rolleyes: duh.

Or maybe 2 or 3 seperate chains.

I plan to be on public property the whole time (unless my chain going around the fence counts as private property, in which case I'd probably go with the tree idea), make no threatening statements or actions (I plan to demand that Bush come out and talk Bible with me, or get on a phone and do so. I have no illusions that this will happen, in all likelyhood he will never know I am there/arrested/whatever, unless I remain there for weeks, which I plan, if I am not bolt cuttered out) and I will be unarmed, and with no illigal materials on me. I also plan to have at least 2 friends with me at all times. I already have these people set up. I also plan to call all the local media in hopes that someone will find this newsworthy, and attempt to get out my message that people need to take action, get vocal about their beleifs. The best defence against tyrrany is a politically involved poplance.

He used to be mostly daytime but I havent seen a lot of him lately....which is a shame.

Daytime for which time Zone? It's 10 right now here, US eastern time.

I plan to be on public property the whole time (unless my chain going around the fence counts as private property, in which case I'd probably go with the tree idea), make no threatening statements or actions (I plan to demand that Bush come out and talk Bible with me, or get on a phone and do so. I have no illusions that this will happen, in all likelyhood he will never know I am there/arrested/whatever, unless I remain there for weeks, which I plan, if I am not bolt cuttered out) and I will be unarmed, and with no illigal materials on me. I also plan to have at least 2 friends with me at all times. I already have these people set up. I also plan to call all the local media in hopes that someone will find this newsworthy, and attempt to get out my message that people need to take action, get vocal about their beleifs. The best defence against tyrrany is a politically involved poplance.

Well, I'm pretty sure that the White House counts as public property. The only problem I forsee is some kind of local law. Make sure you investigate DC's laws on public assembly or loitering. Since you plan to have people with you it will probably be considered an "assembly" which the local law may not prohibit. The thing is, it may require that you jump through some hoops (getting a permit, for example). I know that some cities make homeless people move out of public property if they start living there, but if you are considered a protestor then that kind of thing shouldn't apply.

Well speaking as an attorney, assuming it is only a misdemeanor offense, the MOST they could give you is a year in jail and a fine of some sort. The most likely punishment is a fine, some probation and possibly some community service. Cat Tribes is probably familar with DC law since I believe he (she?) went to school in Georgetown at some point (I may be wrong on that, but something makes me think that). The main thing to do to keep the punishment minimal is to be respectful of those who come to cut you down and the judge and to not threaten anyone in any way or damage any property. If you have a message you want to convey by your protest, get it printed on a T-shirt and wear it instead of carrying a sign (it will be easier to deal with when you get arrested for trespassing). Threats will be taken VERY seriously and they could turn it into a felony which you do not want to deal with.
Just my $0.02

Well, I'm pretty sure that the White House counts as public property. The only problem I forsee is some kind of local law. Make sure you investigate DC's laws on public assembly or loitering. Since you plan to have people with you it will probably be considered an "assembly" which the local law may not prohibit. The thing is, it may require that you jump through some hoops (getting a permit, for example). I know that some cities make homeless people move out of public property if they start living there, but if you are considered a protestor then that kind of thing shouldn't apply.

The white house does not count as public property any more than a military base does.

The white house does not count as public property any more than a military base does.

A military base isn't private property.

A military base isn't private property.


Did I say it was?

Did I say it was?

It looks like you did ... if it's not public, then it's private, isn't it? Just because something is public property doesn't always mean that anyone can walk through it, there are other factors that limit the freedom of assembly (e.g. threatening the president, which has already been discussed).

The main thing to do to keep the punishment minimal is to be respectful of those who come to cut you down and the judge and to not threaten anyone in any way or damage any property.

All guidlines I planned to fallow from the beginning. Thanks for the advice and for the info.


I'm pretty sure military bases and the White House are government porperty. So does that mean that I am not protected by public assembly laws if my chain touches the fence?

It looks like you did ... if it's not public, then it's private, isn't it? Just because something is public property doesn't always mean that anyone can walk through it, there are other factors that limit the freedom of assembly (e.g. threatening the president, which has already been discussed).

Should have been more clear.

The whitehouse, like military bases may be publically owned, but are not considered "commons" (ie. public property).

Seriously, you'll be carted off within twenty minutes, whether or not you have the press there. And you won't accomplish anything, I'm sure people try this on a semi-regular basis, and it never makes the news.

You will however be entered into the secret services big-book of wankers, which could seriously effect your future. It's just not worth it. Especially as george bush is never going to debate the bible with you, whatever you do.

Seriously, you'll be carted off within twenty minutes, whether or not you have the press there. And you won't accomplish anything, I'm sure people try this on a semi-regular basis, and it never makes the news.

You will however be entered into the secret services big-book of wankers, which could seriously effect your future. It's just not worth it. Especially as george bush is never going to debate the bible with you, whatever you do.

I know he won't. I have no expectations that he'll even be told there's a guy outside chained to shit. But I have to do this. It's extremely personal, and very worth it to me. Even if no one but me, you all, the arresting officers, and any passers by ever know about it.

You will however be entered into the secret services big-book of wankers, which could seriously effect your future.

The Secret Service stole my idea for a coffee table book? Damn, I knew I should have rushed production, but wanking is a subject that requires so much...what's the word...uh, yeah "introspection" on the part of the author.

On topic, I'm not sure I see what will be achieved here. People critical of the President will agree with the sentiment (if not the method), and people who like the President will disagree with the sentiment (and the method).

Basically, people who agree with you will continue to do so, people who don't will continue to not. It seems that doing it will render the same effect as not doing it.

Well, at least you have convictions.

The Secret Service stole my idea for a coffee table book? Damn, I knew I should have rushed production, but wanking is a subject that requires so much...what's the word...uh, yeah "introspection" on the part of the author.

On topic, I'm not sure I see what will be achieved here. People critical of the President will agree with the sentiment (if not the method), and people who like the President will disagree with the sentiment (and the method).

Basically, people who agree with you will continue to do so, people who don't will continue to not. It seems that doing it will render the same effect as not doing it.

Well, at least you have convictions.

1) prove to myself that I really have convictions

2) prove to my self that I am willing to act on them, to not feel useless, like all I ever do is bitch. To finally take action

3) possibly inspire others to take their beliefs to the streets

4) maby, on the outside one-in-a-million chance, find out how Bush justifies this this with Jesus, and to tell Bush what I think of him in person. Never ganna happen.

1) prove to myself that I really have convictions

2) prove to my self that I am willing to act on them, to not feel useless, like all I ever do is bitch. To finally take action

3) possibly inspire others to take their beliefs to the streets

4) maby, on the outside one-in-a-million chance, find out how Bush justifies this this with Jesus, and to tell Bush what I think of him in person. Never ganna happen.

1) and 2) can surely be accomplished through some method of greater originality, effectiveness, and safety.

3) and 4) seem dubious.

The fact is, what you're describing has been done, and a trite gesture is ultimately an empty one. Challenge yourself with this:

"Do I have the imagination and ingenuity to make a statement that will express my convictions in a new way, a way that will capture attention without giving me an arrest record?"

I bet you can come up with something, and it will be a new thing, born of your heart, that nobody have ever seen before, and you will say your peace with dynamic eloquence. That's what gets people's attention.

1) and 2) can surely be accomplished through some method of greater originality, effectiveness, and safety.

3) and 4) seem dubious.

The fact is, what you're describing has been done, and a trite gesture is ultimately an empty one. Challenge yourself with this:

"Do I have the imagination and ingenuity to make a statement that will express my convictions in a new way, a way that will capture attention without giving me an arrest record?"

I bet you can come up with something, and it will be a new thing, born of your heart, that nobody have ever seen before, and you will say your peace with dynamic eloquence. That's what gets people's attention.
Amen.